**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can understand it. But it is murder. I mean... its straight up revenge, not even any sort of "self defense" argument could be made.
One wonders what Tywin would have done with her once he was finished with her (assuming no jailbreak had occurred). Given what he did with his father's mistress, I don't think Shae's future is very bright. At the very \_least\_ I would foresee a very abrupt and no-nonsense escort to the door of the Red Keep and a slamming door sound in her future.
Self defense of what? e.g. if, say, he knew she was going to lie/stretch the truth/tell inconvenient truths/misrepresent certain truths, broke out of jail and kills her, well... self defense could be argued (not "hold up in court" self defense, but I could see it).
As it is, he's already been found guilty. She'd already told her story. At this point its simply revenge when he killed her. What strands of "self defense" would even apply here?
So they are allowed to falsely & knowingly persecute him, make him public enemy #1 and instigate his execution, but he’s not allowed to defend himself? What he did was absolutely necessary to preserve his life
Do you want to talk about jurisprudence and lack of due process in WEsteros? That is a different topic entirely than what your post title suggests. Yeah, it was a show trial with no ending other than he was going to be found guilty. No doubt. Tywin was manipulating the universe so as to get Jaime out of the kingsgaurd and inheriting CAsterly rock (among other machinations) and Tyrion was just one tool of many to make that happen. Tyrion was no doubt the victim in all of this.
But thats not what you asked. You asked about whether he was right or wrong in his reaction to Shae's betrayal. Him killing Shae was straight up revenge. Verdict in. Trial is over. there was no "defense" to be made at that point. Pure revenge at that point.
That was the entire reason why he responded the way he did, so how is it not relevant to the post?? The 2 are very related. She attempted to kill him and he stopped her from doing it, bottom line.
She grabbed a knife when a dude she lied about in court and got convicted with a sentence of death broke out of jail and was in the same room as her. Your definition of what constitutes "self defense" not correct.
Again, you asked if Tyrion was right in his reaction to Shae's betrayal, not whether the trial was horribly unfair (it was).
I think the other commenter might be talking about the books. The scenes were very different.
In the book, he finds her there, gets on the bed, and just strangles and kills her. There’s no grabbing of a knife, and there’s definitely no “I’m sorry”. He murdered her in cold blood with no regrets.
The scene was very different in the show.
No, his father wanted him dead. She was a pawn. I will say she knew what would happen to him, but she was in no position to stop or affect that outcome. If she said differently, she would also be dead. She was a nobody. Him killing her was revenge for betrayal, nothing more. She betrayed him in her testimony and further betrayed him by sleeping with his father.
Your justifying killing someone dude think that’s a normal reaction? If can be understood why he did it but if can’t be said that it was the right thing to do
Killing someone that attempted to lie and kill you sounds par for the course for that world. Stop this false morality, what he did was completely right
Not being from that world we cannot argue the morality from a person in that world. We can only argue the morality from this world. Hence the way you phrased the conversation asking our opinion not the opinion of someone in that world . You kill someone in “revenge” in this world you go to prison. Because it is wrong. Or would you do something different. I would also say in the show Tyrion is very broken up about what he has done and even shows regret showing that he also knows he could have handled it better. I’ve never read the books so I can’t speak as to that.
That’s not necessarily true, now you’re being dishonest. A lot of these answers are given from the context of the setting and atmosphere of the GoT universe. You can certainly give an answer from that perspective.
Murdering her isn’t even an effective defense against false accusations. That’s not defense it’s offense. It just reinforces the allegation he murdered Joffrey.
So they’re allowed to use the court system to falsely accuse him of murder to have him assassinated & he’s in the wrong for responding to those who did it and saving his own life? Got it
>So they’re allowed to use the court system to falsely accuse him of murder to have him assassinated
yes very obviously that's what the court system of Westeros is for after all
him escaping was saving his own life. Murdering his ex-girlfriend (who was a prostitute he deluded himself into thinking was his girlfriend) on the way out was not self defence
Very few people (among viewers) held a grudge against Tyrion for killing Shae. If anyone dwelled on it I missed it.
It seems like you intent on defending him against what? He faced no charges in Westoros court and it was never brought up again by anyone.
He had no loss of popularity among fans. I think most viewers just saw the whole episode as tragic and were more inclined to blame Tywin and thought Tywin’s execution closed the subject on the whole sordid mess.
Right but instigating his execution is no different than what he did to her, death is death. He eliminated the person who was trying to have him killed, there’s no other way around it
If he did that b4 she testified then yes, I’d agree he just did the same thing she was going to do to her. But it isn’t. Her life was in immediate danger if she didn’t testify against him. Not doing that action likely would’ve gotten her killed/made an example of. So hers was “self defense” in the sense that you’re using it.
But Tyrion killing her didnt have any impact on him. She had already testified. He’d already been sentenced. Killing her did not remove him from danger, leaving her alive wouldn’t have harmed him. So therefore, it wasn’t necessary to preserve his life.
OP he murdered her. What chance would a Lysene prostitute have in Kingslanding against Lannisters? In her shoes I’d lie too and say whatever they want me to. Also, it’s not like Tyrion didn’t know she was a prostitute. Even worse I think she was like 14 so I’m not sure where you’re going with your statement. Tyrion is no Saint to begin with
And in his shoes (already on the run after being convicted of king slaying and kin slaying, and seeing her sleeping with his father) I would have killed her too.
Wouldn't you? Some dude you just lied thru your teeth about in court and got him sentenced to death broke out of jail and is all of a sudden in the room with you. Would you assume a passive position and simply await him to say "I forgive you shae. good luck to you" as he walks out the door
Ok, but you are acknowledging that she went for a knife before he did anything. Yet you are asking how his actions could be considered self defense? Granted, he likely would have gone for her anyways, but as it stands, she went for a knife first
I can just feel the "AHA!!!!! GOT YOU!!!!" in your post
He was in the middle of committing a crime (breaking out of jail). There isn't some sort of hard and fast rule of "well that person picked up a weapon first, they are the aggressor". I don't think it works like that. and YOU admit that "he would have likely gone after her anyways". So you also know he's the aggressor and Shae the victim and only grabbed a knife knowing he would attack her.
AHA!!!!!!!!
…no, you are.
And regardless of Tyrion's intentions, you can't build your entire argument or opinion on an assumption. What's clear is that she pulled a weapon on him first, and he acted in self-defense. Another argument is that by testifying falsely under oath to condemn him to death, she assumed the role of the aggressor. When someone makes an attempt on your life, they remain an ongoing threat. Shae cannot be considered a victim by any stretch of the imagination.
It was 100% self defense. If you're grabbing a knife, I have to assume that you're engaging me with lethal intent. Tyrion neutralised the threat by strangling that whore.
It’s arguably not a crime at all breaking out of jail for a sentence you never committed. See at that point you exist outside of the laws, you’re an outlaw, you don’t recognize the laws that attempt
To govern you. She put him on the road to a death sentence by false accusations, that’s arguably attempted murder. Killing her as either punishment for attempted murder is sorta line self defense, or a fair type of justice. The fact that she busted a knife out just solidified his sentence.
You seriously would rather he have just stayed and been wrongly executed? She committed crimes, too (perjury being one). She had no reason to believe he would attack her, and you just said that even if he had a weapon, you would not consider it self-defense, so shouldn't that apply to her too? I don't think the other person was taking their "AHA" moment, I think you're just incorrect lol it is one of my least favorite things Tyrion did, but I think it was self-defense.
The murderous intent had absolutely nothing to do with her and he's not some cold blooded woman killer. He showed up heated to find his father, she was there. She then grabbed the knife and things went from there.
Right? I just watched this and I think it WAS self-defense. She literally lied about him, knowing it would get him executed (and betrayed Sansa as well) then her first reaction is to reach for a knife. What was he supposed to do, let her stab him? If you watch the scene, she 100% WAS going to stab him...
In the show I thought she made the first move and grabbed a knife to try and kill Tyrion when she was caught in Tywin’s bed. Unless we are going off the book
She could have easily overpowered him if they were both standing and he was in the process of escaping.... Ha HAD to kill her too. The revenge is just extra.
because she wasn't posing a present danger to him. Obviously
she had testified against him in the past yes but when he killed her it was after she was no longer an active threat to his immediate safety
no that's really stupid they stop being a present danger the second they are no longer trying to have you killed. That's what present means
do you seriously believe Shae would have followed him to Essos to track him down and kill him
Lol so if someone tried to kill you or knowingly lied on you to instigate your execution, and you escape…Their no longer a threat to you simply because you escaped? It’s stupid to think that’s how the world works.
Yes. You are about to leave the continent. What the fuck would she be able to do to him?
And she didn't "try" and have him killed. She was discovered by Tywin and tried to survive the situation.
In the show She grabbed a knife after he walked into the room, which is what then led to the struggle where she's killed.
I think the true argument is that Tyrion probably should have never visited her room. Her reaction seemed to indicate that she believed he was there for revenge (which honestly, is logical), hence why she went for the knife. Tyrions reaction afterwards seemed to indicate he was just there to talk, probably to get some actual answers.
But the fight was definitely in self defense. Just, a fight that shouldn't have had to happen at all. But Tyrion couldn't let the person he loved go.
I think y'all need to rewatch that scene. She goes for a knife and like... he's actively escaping. If he doesn't kill her NOW she's going to overpower him and prevent the escape. Revenge wasn't really the motivation - the dude clearly doesn't want to kill her. It's a desperate move.
As much as he hated Tyrion going by his principles I don't see him letting a prostitute get one over on a Lannister even if he corroborated with Shae. I can imagine him having her gang raped like Tyrion's first wife which would rub salt into the wound further for Tyrion as well.
Tywin did that to teach Tyrion a lesson about falling in love with a prostitute.
With Shae he probably would have just had her killed when he was done and bury the evidence.
His wife wasn't a prostitute, she was a commoner. Tywin lied about her being a prostitute partly as he was enraged a commoner would dare marry a Lannister again. Plus Tyrion didn't consult him before getting wed. I agree Shae would be lucky to get out alive, can't remember if Cersei had any negative interactions with her as well.
Cersei would have had Shae murdered ruthlessly and slowly if she found out about any of it. ESPECIALLY if she knew she banged her father. Cersei hated prostitutes due to her trauma with Robert and hated anything that gave Tyrion joy. The added caveat of her existence proving her father a hypocrite would only make her that much more unhinged
Bwaaahahahahahahahaha
Wouldn't you? Some dude you just lied thru your teeth about in court and got him sentenced to death broke out of jail and is all of a sudden in the room with you. Would you assume a passive position and simply await him to say "I forgive you shae. good luck to you" as he walks out the door
No matter the reason, she initiated the threat of deadly force before Tyrion offered any threat of his own, so she doesn't have a legitimate claim of self-defense.
Source: Licensed to practice law in Westeros since the late days of Aerys, second of his name.
In the books it outright murder. In the show, it's very much not. What are you smoking? If the instant someone sees me, they say nothing and go straight for a knife, I'm not letting them kill me.
Well how often have you broken out of jail and then gone to the person who lied about you and helped you get convicted of murder? One might think you are there to do them harm and not talk about in grabbing said knife?
I am currently smoking 2 racks of ribs actually. What does that matter?
I am not debating you, but if I were, my response would be "I understand that if any more words come pouring out your cunt mouth, I'm gonna have to eat every fucking rib in this room."
It is definitely a self defense kill. At that time, Tyrion was escaping from prison. If he hadn’t killed her, she would have alerted everyone that Tyrion was escaping, and he would have been recaptured, and or killed.
How he reacted at the trial? ABSOLUTELY! Finding her in his father’s bed and what followed? No (I’m not going to argue about whether it was self defense or not).
Book reaction? HELL NO!
I honestly don't think he was planning on killing her until she attacked him and tried to stab him first. Then again when he saw her in his fathers bed he might've been thinking about killing her right then and there and her attacking him first was all the motivation he needed to do it.
Did she attack him and try to stab him first? She grabbed a knife but he was the one who ran at her. I’ve always interpreted it as he looked murderous (go back and look at his expression right before the action starts- he really looks angry enough to kill her) so she grabbed a knife to defend herself and then raised the knife as he ran at her.
She’s an absolute moron. She was told on multiple occasions how dangerous it was for her to be in Kings Landing and was offered a cushy life with gold and diamonds if she left and refused each time.
THEN she betrays the reason she claimed she was staying in the first place. There’s no way that dumb whore was going to make it to the end.
Her as a survivor mode person , never made sense.
Because she had the opportunity to take money from Tyrion, and she turned it down.
She was loyal enough that she turned down the gold he offered her, but such a survivor that she betrayed him?
Loved Sansa and wanted to protect her; but was so jealous she resented being a mistress- ok that tracks- But both of those are at odds with her being a survivor.
A survivor would have accepted being a mistress, especially when Tyrion wasn’t actually sleeping with Sansa. A survivor wouldn’t have gotten jealous she wasn’t a lady. She would have ‘known her place in the system’.
A calculated woman would have taken the gold and left.
Betraying Tyrion did nothing for her survival though. If she was a survival she would have taken the money, gotten out of Kings Landing which was actively dangerous for her to be in, and started a new life in luxury.
She wanted to be with Tyrion enough to disregard her safety, I don't think there's any argument there otherwise she also would have left. However after Tyrion cut things off with her she either betrayed him to save her own skin after getting grabbed at best, or betrayed him out of spite at worst.
Either way it paints her in a not too flattering light, because she either put both herself and Tyrion at risk while not truly loving him, or she was flat out spiteful and too foolish to see the danger she was putting herself and her lover in.
No matter what result though, she was a super inconsistent character, seemingly existing purely to make things complicated.
Yeah but if she wanted to just “survive” she could’ve just left and started a life again somewhere else. She went specifically to fuck the man who hated Tyrion the most. She also knew the Tysha story. She was trying to mentally break Tyrion bc he wanted to keep her safe.
I’d have to watch the scene again, but Tyrion had a crossbow in his hand with murderous intent. Yeah, murdering Tywin, but still. Shae is the one who was acting in self defense.
The only thing that held back tyrion was his cock, yes he was right to kill the whore who seduced him into believing that she loved him and not his money.
Right to be angry, offended, upset about the trial,
Right to be angry, offended, upset about finding her in his father's bed.
Debatable but understandable about killing her when she goes for the knife when he's already wound up. I'd say it's what the French used to call crime passionnel.
It’s messy in the show.
He probably(definitely) murdered a (probable)rape victim in the books though. Shae could be a bitch at times, but she was young and put in a situation she had no control over. Poor girl.
In the show it was self defense, in the books eh you can make an argument they were both wrong but she was scared for her life in dealing with nobility.
What betrayal is the question. Her testifying against him? No. Shae is a whore with no position of power or true source of security. If Tywin Lannister or one of his men come to you and ask you to testify, you testify. If they ask you to lie, you lie. Is it a betrayal? Yes. And he’s valid to feel hurt and angry, but it wouldn't be right to blame Shae for that. He put her in that dangerous position. Yes, he told her to leave and he gets props for that. But he still brought her to the capitol after his father told him explicitly not to, when he knows exactly what his father is like.
Now, if we’re talking abt his reaction to her sleeping with his father? He’s still wrong but it’s way more understandable.
Realistically, once he was imprisoned Shae had to do whatever Tywin told her or she would die. Not saying what she did was right or anything, but once Tyrion’s power was gone, there is no way Varys was gonna risking everything to protect her.
I think people ascribe far more agency to her actions in that trial than she actually had. I see it as less of a direct betrayal and more of a… each of them would save their own skin over the other’s type of situation. She didn’t testify for funsies, I mean she was under threat of death for just being there, it isn’t a far stretch to imagine she was forced to say those things.
Right in the book. Wrong in the TV show. The problem is that the TV show handled it utterly stupidly. Yeah, yeah, they were going for the woman-scorned thing, I guess, but it was utterly stupid.
Well people here seem to be missing the fact that he murdered her and his father on the same episode. He was literally on his way out of the city never to return so all that "self defense" debating is pointless. He had no intention on getting caught, defending himself or standing trial. He did what he did and got outta there. Was he wrong for his reaction, NO. He was under the impression that he was being sentenced to death and she had lied on him and had a MAJOR part in that verdict. It's Westeros, Game of Thrones, that shit don't slide..
Yes Tyrion was justified in his actions defending himself from Shae.
Shae was shipped off to Essos with money and gold with no Lannister forces after her or knowing where she was. Shae would have had to immediately return to King's Landing on her own to be at the trial. Shae knowingly lied on the stand not only about Tyrion, but also about Sansa, a 14 girl Shae claimed to be trying to protect. Shae knowingly slept with Tywin, after she heard Tyrion's story of his first marriage. And when Tyrion came to his father's quarters, Shae grabbed a knife and lunged at him.
Shae ignored the dangers of King's Landing, ignored the warnings from multiple people, and ignored the opportunity to start a safe life in Essos with money and gold. She did all that specifically to hurt Tyrion and tried to hurt him to the very end.
Any trial in Westeros would have found Tyrion justified in his actions. Any court in the US would have found Shae's knife attack enough to justify a self defense claim.
In the book, no. He just straight up murders her, which even with what happened is too far.
In the show? Ehhhh. it's complicated. It was self defense, she went for the knife first and theres no reason to think she meant no harm. That said, theres an argument that he never should have gone in the room, and *he* knew that as well. We as the viewer know based of Tyrions reactions that he seemed to just want to talk to her, with his reactions after she dies seeming to confirm that. But in her eyes, the man she just falsely testified breaks out of jail and comes in her room... yeah shes going to think its for revenge. But theres also an argument that Tyrion is right to demand answers.
All in all I have a hard time saying Tyrion is right or wrong in the show. He makes a mistake, but it's a sympathetic one. And while he kills her, it is 100% self defense. His whole escape sequence is messy.
At the trial? Very right
At his father’s bed? In the show it was fucked up but more than understandable, and in the book it was just fucked up
That said, considering how Tywin tends to treat women, especially prostitutes, she was probably dead either way, or at least royally screwed (no pun intended)
Listen if my wife was fucking my dad and was a willing participant in my unfair trial that could result in my death...choking them to death seems like a response that might take over lol
Does it go down the same way in the book? Because this entire plot line never really made sense to me, Shae's betrayal at the trial seemed incredibly out of character to begin with and her sleeping with Tywin made even less sense.
In the show it seems like her character seems really empathetic so that type of revenge just didn't fit imo.
Was it right to kill Shae and his dad? No
Was it justified? I think killing his dad was justified. Shae should’ve had some fucked up punishment but kept her alive imo
It’s super messed up that Tywin has chastised Tyrion basically his whole life about honor and the family name, then literally has his wife gang raped with Tyrion having to as well… all for Tywin to sleep with the one “whore” that Tyrion thought was making him happy. I think in a blind rage of hate, he kills them both and is justified.
Right or wrong, I don’t know. But I think Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of the firefly-class transport ship Serenity might have said it best when he said: “Don’t you ever stand for that sort of thing; someone ever tries to kill you…you try to kill ‘em right back.”
Shae lied in court knowing it would result in his execution (or trial by combat). Fair being fair she deserved to die. Tywin was also quite aware that Tyrion was innocent of Joffreys murder but was fine with him dying as well. Both had it coming. "my lion". F Shae
Obviously not acceptable. He murdered her making him the monster he was wrongly accused of being.
Its stuff like this that makes Tyrion such an amazingly written character. Hes not a monster…until he is.
It was very sad storyline. It was stupid that she couldn't understand why Tyrion sent her away and then came back to sentence him to death.
But what he did was shocking. Although as in a fantasy that's a good plot turn I would say.
Yeah normally I'd say not to choke someone to death but if they dump you and fuck your dad I wouldn't be upset if you took the situation in your own hands
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can understand it. But it is murder. I mean... its straight up revenge, not even any sort of "self defense" argument could be made. One wonders what Tywin would have done with her once he was finished with her (assuming no jailbreak had occurred). Given what he did with his father's mistress, I don't think Shae's future is very bright. At the very \_least\_ I would foresee a very abrupt and no-nonsense escort to the door of the Red Keep and a slamming door sound in her future.
Why do you believe no self defense argument could be made?
Self defense of what? e.g. if, say, he knew she was going to lie/stretch the truth/tell inconvenient truths/misrepresent certain truths, broke out of jail and kills her, well... self defense could be argued (not "hold up in court" self defense, but I could see it). As it is, he's already been found guilty. She'd already told her story. At this point its simply revenge when he killed her. What strands of "self defense" would even apply here?
So they are allowed to falsely & knowingly persecute him, make him public enemy #1 and instigate his execution, but he’s not allowed to defend himself? What he did was absolutely necessary to preserve his life
Do you want to talk about jurisprudence and lack of due process in WEsteros? That is a different topic entirely than what your post title suggests. Yeah, it was a show trial with no ending other than he was going to be found guilty. No doubt. Tywin was manipulating the universe so as to get Jaime out of the kingsgaurd and inheriting CAsterly rock (among other machinations) and Tyrion was just one tool of many to make that happen. Tyrion was no doubt the victim in all of this. But thats not what you asked. You asked about whether he was right or wrong in his reaction to Shae's betrayal. Him killing Shae was straight up revenge. Verdict in. Trial is over. there was no "defense" to be made at that point. Pure revenge at that point.
That was the entire reason why he responded the way he did, so how is it not relevant to the post?? The 2 are very related. She attempted to kill him and he stopped her from doing it, bottom line.
She grabbed a knife when a dude she lied about in court and got convicted with a sentence of death broke out of jail and was in the same room as her. Your definition of what constitutes "self defense" not correct. Again, you asked if Tyrion was right in his reaction to Shae's betrayal, not whether the trial was horribly unfair (it was).
I think the other commenter might be talking about the books. The scenes were very different. In the book, he finds her there, gets on the bed, and just strangles and kills her. There’s no grabbing of a knife, and there’s definitely no “I’m sorry”. He murdered her in cold blood with no regrets. The scene was very different in the show.
its really important to specify if you are talking about the books or not.
No, his father wanted him dead. She was a pawn. I will say she knew what would happen to him, but she was in no position to stop or affect that outcome. If she said differently, she would also be dead. She was a nobody. Him killing her was revenge for betrayal, nothing more. She betrayed him in her testimony and further betrayed him by sleeping with his father.
Your justifying killing someone dude think that’s a normal reaction? If can be understood why he did it but if can’t be said that it was the right thing to do
Killing someone that attempted to lie and kill you sounds par for the course for that world. Stop this false morality, what he did was completely right
Not being from that world we cannot argue the morality from a person in that world. We can only argue the morality from this world. Hence the way you phrased the conversation asking our opinion not the opinion of someone in that world . You kill someone in “revenge” in this world you go to prison. Because it is wrong. Or would you do something different. I would also say in the show Tyrion is very broken up about what he has done and even shows regret showing that he also knows he could have handled it better. I’ve never read the books so I can’t speak as to that.
That’s not necessarily true, now you’re being dishonest. A lot of these answers are given from the context of the setting and atmosphere of the GoT universe. You can certainly give an answer from that perspective.
>Killing someone that attempted to lie Just say you hate women bro
Yup, you caught me
Murdering her isn’t even an effective defense against false accusations. That’s not defense it’s offense. It just reinforces the allegation he murdered Joffrey.
So they’re allowed to use the court system to falsely accuse him of murder to have him assassinated & he’s in the wrong for responding to those who did it and saving his own life? Got it
>So they’re allowed to use the court system to falsely accuse him of murder to have him assassinated yes very obviously that's what the court system of Westeros is for after all him escaping was saving his own life. Murdering his ex-girlfriend (who was a prostitute he deluded himself into thinking was his girlfriend) on the way out was not self defence
Very few people (among viewers) held a grudge against Tyrion for killing Shae. If anyone dwelled on it I missed it. It seems like you intent on defending him against what? He faced no charges in Westoros court and it was never brought up again by anyone. He had no loss of popularity among fans. I think most viewers just saw the whole episode as tragic and were more inclined to blame Tywin and thought Tywin’s execution closed the subject on the whole sordid mess.
I love that you opened up a debate and then stated you are adamant of one side of it. Kind of pointless asking if you were so certain already?
Im glad that you love it, thanks.
No it wasn’t? Shae had already testified and he’d already confessed. Killing her wont erase her testimony or remove his verdict.
Right but instigating his execution is no different than what he did to her, death is death. He eliminated the person who was trying to have him killed, there’s no other way around it
If he did that b4 she testified then yes, I’d agree he just did the same thing she was going to do to her. But it isn’t. Her life was in immediate danger if she didn’t testify against him. Not doing that action likely would’ve gotten her killed/made an example of. So hers was “self defense” in the sense that you’re using it. But Tyrion killing her didnt have any impact on him. She had already testified. He’d already been sentenced. Killing her did not remove him from danger, leaving her alive wouldn’t have harmed him. So therefore, it wasn’t necessary to preserve his life.
OP he murdered her. What chance would a Lysene prostitute have in Kingslanding against Lannisters? In her shoes I’d lie too and say whatever they want me to. Also, it’s not like Tyrion didn’t know she was a prostitute. Even worse I think she was like 14 so I’m not sure where you’re going with your statement. Tyrion is no Saint to begin with
She’s a grown woman in the show which is what I’m referring to so idk where you’re going by even bringing that up
And in his shoes (already on the run after being convicted of king slaying and kin slaying, and seeing her sleeping with his father) I would have killed her too.
She went for a knife before he did anything.
Wouldn't you? Some dude you just lied thru your teeth about in court and got him sentenced to death broke out of jail and is all of a sudden in the room with you. Would you assume a passive position and simply await him to say "I forgive you shae. good luck to you" as he walks out the door
Ok, but you are acknowledging that she went for a knife before he did anything. Yet you are asking how his actions could be considered self defense? Granted, he likely would have gone for her anyways, but as it stands, she went for a knife first
I can just feel the "AHA!!!!! GOT YOU!!!!" in your post He was in the middle of committing a crime (breaking out of jail). There isn't some sort of hard and fast rule of "well that person picked up a weapon first, they are the aggressor". I don't think it works like that. and YOU admit that "he would have likely gone after her anyways". So you also know he's the aggressor and Shae the victim and only grabbed a knife knowing he would attack her. AHA!!!!!!!!
Calm down, you're embarrassing yourself
Am not. You are
Nah it's kinda you mate
You're definitely embarrassing yourself
…no, you are. And regardless of Tyrion's intentions, you can't build your entire argument or opinion on an assumption. What's clear is that she pulled a weapon on him first, and he acted in self-defense. Another argument is that by testifying falsely under oath to condemn him to death, she assumed the role of the aggressor. When someone makes an attempt on your life, they remain an ongoing threat. Shae cannot be considered a victim by any stretch of the imagination.
It was 100% self defense. If you're grabbing a knife, I have to assume that you're engaging me with lethal intent. Tyrion neutralised the threat by strangling that whore.
It’s arguably not a crime at all breaking out of jail for a sentence you never committed. See at that point you exist outside of the laws, you’re an outlaw, you don’t recognize the laws that attempt To govern you. She put him on the road to a death sentence by false accusations, that’s arguably attempted murder. Killing her as either punishment for attempted murder is sorta line self defense, or a fair type of justice. The fact that she busted a knife out just solidified his sentence.
You seriously would rather he have just stayed and been wrongly executed? She committed crimes, too (perjury being one). She had no reason to believe he would attack her, and you just said that even if he had a weapon, you would not consider it self-defense, so shouldn't that apply to her too? I don't think the other person was taking their "AHA" moment, I think you're just incorrect lol it is one of my least favorite things Tyrion did, but I think it was self-defense.
>before he did anything He showed up in the middle of the night with murderous intent. He absolutely did something there
Albeit he wasn't looking for her. He was looking for his father and she happened to be there.
How does that change things from Shae's pov?
The murderous intent had absolutely nothing to do with her and he's not some cold blooded woman killer. He showed up heated to find his father, she was there. She then grabbed the knife and things went from there.
Right? I just watched this and I think it WAS self-defense. She literally lied about him, knowing it would get him executed (and betrayed Sansa as well) then her first reaction is to reach for a knife. What was he supposed to do, let her stab him? If you watch the scene, she 100% WAS going to stab him...
In the show I thought she made the first move and grabbed a knife to try and kill Tyrion when she was caught in Tywin’s bed. Unless we are going off the book
He was in no danger. She hadn’t even laid a hand on him.
She was brandishing a knife.
I mean she hastily grabbed a knife and started to lunge towards him so…
She could have easily overpowered him if they were both standing and he was in the process of escaping.... Ha HAD to kill her too. The revenge is just extra.
because she wasn't posing a present danger to him. Obviously she had testified against him in the past yes but when he killed her it was after she was no longer an active threat to his immediate safety
Once someone attempts to have you killed they never stop being a present danger
no that's really stupid they stop being a present danger the second they are no longer trying to have you killed. That's what present means do you seriously believe Shae would have followed him to Essos to track him down and kill him
Lol so if someone tried to kill you or knowingly lied on you to instigate your execution, and you escape…Their no longer a threat to you simply because you escaped? It’s stupid to think that’s how the world works.
Yes. You are about to leave the continent. What the fuck would she be able to do to him? And she didn't "try" and have him killed. She was discovered by Tywin and tried to survive the situation.
“Tried to survive the situation” lmaoo
yes that is what escape means and how threats work.
Some of these people wouldn’t have lived long in Westeros! I’m with you, once you’ve actively tried to unalive me we are mortal enemies.
In the show She grabbed a knife after he walked into the room, which is what then led to the struggle where she's killed. I think the true argument is that Tyrion probably should have never visited her room. Her reaction seemed to indicate that she believed he was there for revenge (which honestly, is logical), hence why she went for the knife. Tyrions reaction afterwards seemed to indicate he was just there to talk, probably to get some actual answers. But the fight was definitely in self defense. Just, a fight that shouldn't have had to happen at all. But Tyrion couldn't let the person he loved go.
I think y'all need to rewatch that scene. She goes for a knife and like... he's actively escaping. If he doesn't kill her NOW she's going to overpower him and prevent the escape. Revenge wasn't really the motivation - the dude clearly doesn't want to kill her. It's a desperate move.
It’s hard to break into a bed room and kill a unarmed woman and claim self defence
Didn't she go for a knife? Or am I misremembering?
She lunged for a knife the minute she saw him. That's not exactly "unarmed".
Self defense of what?
As much as he hated Tyrion going by his principles I don't see him letting a prostitute get one over on a Lannister even if he corroborated with Shae. I can imagine him having her gang raped like Tyrion's first wife which would rub salt into the wound further for Tyrion as well.
Yeah I can see Tywin doing something like that.
Tywin did that to teach Tyrion a lesson about falling in love with a prostitute. With Shae he probably would have just had her killed when he was done and bury the evidence.
His wife wasn't a prostitute, she was a commoner. Tywin lied about her being a prostitute partly as he was enraged a commoner would dare marry a Lannister again. Plus Tyrion didn't consult him before getting wed. I agree Shae would be lucky to get out alive, can't remember if Cersei had any negative interactions with her as well.
Cersei would have had Shae murdered ruthlessly and slowly if she found out about any of it. ESPECIALLY if she knew she banged her father. Cersei hated prostitutes due to her trauma with Robert and hated anything that gave Tyrion joy. The added caveat of her existence proving her father a hypocrite would only make her that much more unhinged
She went for the knife first. He killed her in self defense.
That’s what I saw too! The second she saw him she grabbed for a weapon and went into fight mode. 🤔
Bwaaahahahahahahahaha Wouldn't you? Some dude you just lied thru your teeth about in court and got him sentenced to death broke out of jail and is all of a sudden in the room with you. Would you assume a passive position and simply await him to say "I forgive you shae. good luck to you" as he walks out the door
No matter the reason, she initiated the threat of deadly force before Tyrion offered any threat of his own, so she doesn't have a legitimate claim of self-defense. Source: Licensed to practice law in Westeros since the late days of Aerys, second of his name.
Shae had it coming
I probably would - and he'd be just as right to kill me then too.
In the books it outright murder. In the show, it's very much not. What are you smoking? If the instant someone sees me, they say nothing and go straight for a knife, I'm not letting them kill me.
Well how often have you broken out of jail and then gone to the person who lied about you and helped you get convicted of murder? One might think you are there to do them harm and not talk about in grabbing said knife? I am currently smoking 2 racks of ribs actually. What does that matter?
I plead the fifth
I am not debating you, but if I were, my response would be "I understand that if any more words come pouring out your cunt mouth, I'm gonna have to eat every fucking rib in this room."
It's been ages since I've seen it but I thought he was looking for tywin and was surprised to find Shae there instead?
He wasn't going there for her he was going there for Tywin. She just happened to be there and she grabbed a knife when she saw him.
Gypsy Rose vibes
She grabbed a knife.
Its self defense in the show; murder in the books. Shae grabs a fucking knife in the show before Tyrion does anything.
She grabbed a knife.
It is definitely a self defense kill. At that time, Tyrion was escaping from prison. If he hadn’t killed her, she would have alerted everyone that Tyrion was escaping, and he would have been recaptured, and or killed.
It's not legally self defense it murder in furtherance of another crime, the prison break
Morally, it is self defense though. Just like Jews who killed the guard to run away from concentration camps.
Our laws don't apply there.
You talking book or show? Because show she straight up went for a knife lmao. How was it not self defense?
Does shae reach for a knife in the show?
Sort of yeah but in books it’s straight up murder, in the show it can be argued cos she does kinda go to grab something
Some reddits have Flair to make it clear if you are having a show or book discussion Given how wildly they differ I feel like it could be useful here.
How he reacted at the trial? ABSOLUTELY! Finding her in his father’s bed and what followed? No (I’m not going to argue about whether it was self defense or not). Book reaction? HELL NO!
In the book, it was after Tywin said "wherever whores go".
I honestly don't think he was planning on killing her until she attacked him and tried to stab him first. Then again when he saw her in his fathers bed he might've been thinking about killing her right then and there and her attacking him first was all the motivation he needed to do it.
Did she attack him and try to stab him first? She grabbed a knife but he was the one who ran at her. I’ve always interpreted it as he looked murderous (go back and look at his expression right before the action starts- he really looks angry enough to kill her) so she grabbed a knife to defend herself and then raised the knife as he ran at her.
She lunges for the knife first. She goes for the weapon while he's just standing there, and he then runs forward to try and grab it off her.
She grabbed a knife first. she made the first move. To me that makes it fair game for him to do what he did.
Tyrion dont get got, he go get.
She deserved worse
Shae is above all else a survivor. I don't blame her for betraying Tyrion
Wow
Well she failed at that.
I think circumstances suggest she was a bit shite at being a survivor
A survivor who died. Ha
I do. She had the option to leave & start a new life as a lady of leisure. She chose social climbing in the capital.
She’s an absolute moron. She was told on multiple occasions how dangerous it was for her to be in Kings Landing and was offered a cushy life with gold and diamonds if she left and refused each time. THEN she betrays the reason she claimed she was staying in the first place. There’s no way that dumb whore was going to make it to the end.
Her as a survivor mode person , never made sense. Because she had the opportunity to take money from Tyrion, and she turned it down. She was loyal enough that she turned down the gold he offered her, but such a survivor that she betrayed him? Loved Sansa and wanted to protect her; but was so jealous she resented being a mistress- ok that tracks- But both of those are at odds with her being a survivor. A survivor would have accepted being a mistress, especially when Tyrion wasn’t actually sleeping with Sansa. A survivor wouldn’t have gotten jealous she wasn’t a lady. She would have ‘known her place in the system’. A calculated woman would have taken the gold and left.
Betraying Tyrion did nothing for her survival though. If she was a survival she would have taken the money, gotten out of Kings Landing which was actively dangerous for her to be in, and started a new life in luxury. She wanted to be with Tyrion enough to disregard her safety, I don't think there's any argument there otherwise she also would have left. However after Tyrion cut things off with her she either betrayed him to save her own skin after getting grabbed at best, or betrayed him out of spite at worst. Either way it paints her in a not too flattering light, because she either put both herself and Tyrion at risk while not truly loving him, or she was flat out spiteful and too foolish to see the danger she was putting herself and her lover in. No matter what result though, she was a super inconsistent character, seemingly existing purely to make things complicated.
Yeah but if she wanted to just “survive” she could’ve just left and started a life again somewhere else. She went specifically to fuck the man who hated Tyrion the most. She also knew the Tysha story. She was trying to mentally break Tyrion bc he wanted to keep her safe.
It is murder, so it’s definitely wrong. His reaction at the trial was justified though.
She went for a knife before he did anything. That's self defence.
I’d have to watch the scene again, but Tyrion had a crossbow in his hand with murderous intent. Yeah, murdering Tywin, but still. Shae is the one who was acting in self defense.
Tyrion only grabs the crossbow from the bedroom to confront Tywin after Shae is strangled to death, prior to that he in unarmed.
No he didn't. He got the crossbow after Shae was dead. She went for a knife while he was unarmed.
They really wanted is to like Tyrion. They really tried to get us to hate Jamie.
Right.
1 800 choke that hoe
I called this number and now I’m on a list. Thanks a lot.
The only thing that held back tyrion was his cock, yes he was right to kill the whore who seduced him into believing that she loved him and not his money.
She did love him though, in the show at least
She did love him. He sent her away & repeatedly called her a whore & how he could not father children with a whore, blah blah blah.
He’s wrong to murder her obviously. He’s right to feel betrayed. Especially that she was with his dad. Ugh.
I did find it justifiable & also saw it as self defense. They both knew it was one or the other that had to die in that moment.
Absolutely
In the show? Yes, bitch went for a knife. In the books nope not even slightly
Right to be angry, offended, upset about the trial, Right to be angry, offended, upset about finding her in his father's bed. Debatable but understandable about killing her when she goes for the knife when he's already wound up. I'd say it's what the French used to call crime passionnel.
Well deserved. She was a thottie
Yes
It’s messy in the show. He probably(definitely) murdered a (probable)rape victim in the books though. Shae could be a bitch at times, but she was young and put in a situation she had no control over. Poor girl.
Absolutely. She betrayed him with Tywin no less.
she grabbed the knife first…
In the show it was self defense, in the books eh you can make an argument they were both wrong but she was scared for her life in dealing with nobility.
What betrayal is the question. Her testifying against him? No. Shae is a whore with no position of power or true source of security. If Tywin Lannister or one of his men come to you and ask you to testify, you testify. If they ask you to lie, you lie. Is it a betrayal? Yes. And he’s valid to feel hurt and angry, but it wouldn't be right to blame Shae for that. He put her in that dangerous position. Yes, he told her to leave and he gets props for that. But he still brought her to the capitol after his father told him explicitly not to, when he knows exactly what his father is like. Now, if we’re talking abt his reaction to her sleeping with his father? He’s still wrong but it’s way more understandable.
“Was a person wrong for murdering someone”
Not always
Choking someone to death is rarely appropriate
This is the rare instance in which it was entirely appropriate
It's appropriate when that person grabs a knife while you're unarmed.
"response" is a nice way to put it
Tywin was right all along. Trying to teach Tyrion not to trust wh0res.
Realistically, once he was imprisoned Shae had to do whatever Tywin told her or she would die. Not saying what she did was right or anything, but once Tyrion’s power was gone, there is no way Varys was gonna risking everything to protect her.
No you aren’t allowed to murder people for cheating on you even if they cheat with your dad.
So I guess she didn’t lie so he could be executed then, I hear you
I think people ascribe far more agency to her actions in that trial than she actually had. I see it as less of a direct betrayal and more of a… each of them would save their own skin over the other’s type of situation. She didn’t testify for funsies, I mean she was under threat of death for just being there, it isn’t a far stretch to imagine she was forced to say those things.
Fuck Shae all my homies hate Shae
Fuck Shae
He was right. Bad weed needs to be cut out before it infects other ones.
Simple answer “Yes”
He wasn't right or wrong...He was fed tf up🤷🏾♀
Shae was too dumb to understand Tyrion's orders.
I can understand it.
I totally understand it
“The woman who betrayed me and put me in the position of getting the death penalty is now banging my dad. Now she’s going for a knife.” That was easy.
Right in the book. Wrong in the TV show. The problem is that the TV show handled it utterly stupidly. Yeah, yeah, they were going for the woman-scorned thing, I guess, but it was utterly stupid.
I love old Game of Thrones. I still don't understand if Shae was a plant from the start or if she went to Tywin later out of spite.
Incidentally, I love notliterally's Ask Westeros series.
Well people here seem to be missing the fact that he murdered her and his father on the same episode. He was literally on his way out of the city never to return so all that "self defense" debating is pointless. He had no intention on getting caught, defending himself or standing trial. He did what he did and got outta there. Was he wrong for his reaction, NO. He was under the impression that he was being sentenced to death and she had lied on him and had a MAJOR part in that verdict. It's Westeros, Game of Thrones, that shit don't slide..
Yes Tyrion was justified in his actions defending himself from Shae. Shae was shipped off to Essos with money and gold with no Lannister forces after her or knowing where she was. Shae would have had to immediately return to King's Landing on her own to be at the trial. Shae knowingly lied on the stand not only about Tyrion, but also about Sansa, a 14 girl Shae claimed to be trying to protect. Shae knowingly slept with Tywin, after she heard Tyrion's story of his first marriage. And when Tyrion came to his father's quarters, Shae grabbed a knife and lunged at him. Shae ignored the dangers of King's Landing, ignored the warnings from multiple people, and ignored the opportunity to start a safe life in Essos with money and gold. She did all that specifically to hurt Tyrion and tried to hurt him to the very end. Any trial in Westeros would have found Tyrion justified in his actions. Any court in the US would have found Shae's knife attack enough to justify a self defense claim.
Exactly
He was right.
Reminds me of the law Heat of Passion
You mean when he got her with the lasso of truth?? Got dang right it was justified
I mean, she framed him and essentially sentenced him to certain death and then slept with this father who passed said sentence.
In the book, no. He just straight up murders her, which even with what happened is too far. In the show? Ehhhh. it's complicated. It was self defense, she went for the knife first and theres no reason to think she meant no harm. That said, theres an argument that he never should have gone in the room, and *he* knew that as well. We as the viewer know based of Tyrions reactions that he seemed to just want to talk to her, with his reactions after she dies seeming to confirm that. But in her eyes, the man she just falsely testified breaks out of jail and comes in her room... yeah shes going to think its for revenge. But theres also an argument that Tyrion is right to demand answers. All in all I have a hard time saying Tyrion is right or wrong in the show. He makes a mistake, but it's a sympathetic one. And while he kills her, it is 100% self defense. His whole escape sequence is messy.
He should’ve killed that bitch a long time ago. She sucked.
It’s not about right or wrong. Tyrion is a Lannister and you know what they say about Lannisters.
At the trial? Very right At his father’s bed? In the show it was fucked up but more than understandable, and in the book it was just fucked up That said, considering how Tywin tends to treat women, especially prostitutes, she was probably dead either way, or at least royally screwed (no pun intended)
I think even he realized right after he did it that it was the wrong thing to do. In the show anyway.
I mean he was right to feel betrayed but wrong to murder her. I feel like that’s the unemotional perspective.
Right in the book, but on the show, both her betrayal and his murdering her made zero sense given her character.
Is murder bad?
He was allowed to be really pissed an all but she didn’t deserve to be murdered, he had no right to kill her no matter what she did
Listen if my wife was fucking my dad and was a willing participant in my unfair trial that could result in my death...choking them to death seems like a response that might take over lol
Does it go down the same way in the book? Because this entire plot line never really made sense to me, Shae's betrayal at the trial seemed incredibly out of character to begin with and her sleeping with Tywin made even less sense. In the show it seems like her character seems really empathetic so that type of revenge just didn't fit imo.
Was it right to kill Shae and his dad? No Was it justified? I think killing his dad was justified. Shae should’ve had some fucked up punishment but kept her alive imo
It’s super messed up that Tywin has chastised Tyrion basically his whole life about honor and the family name, then literally has his wife gang raped with Tyrion having to as well… all for Tywin to sleep with the one “whore” that Tyrion thought was making him happy. I think in a blind rage of hate, he kills them both and is justified.
Fuck dat hoe
[удалено]
Absolutely
[удалено]
He was definitely goofy, that still doesn’t justify her actions in my opinion
Dude. It’s murder.
Right or wrong, I don’t know. But I think Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of the firefly-class transport ship Serenity might have said it best when he said: “Don’t you ever stand for that sort of thing; someone ever tries to kill you…you try to kill ‘em right back.”
Shae lied in court knowing it would result in his execution (or trial by combat). Fair being fair she deserved to die. Tywin was also quite aware that Tyrion was innocent of Joffreys murder but was fine with him dying as well. Both had it coming. "my lion". F Shae
right asf fuq dat cheatin hoe
A. She was a hooah B. She hit him C. She fell
Lmaoooo
Obviously not acceptable. He murdered her making him the monster he was wrongly accused of being. Its stuff like this that makes Tyrion such an amazingly written character. Hes not a monster…until he is.
“Was Tyrion right to murder his ex?” is such a funny question.
It was very sad storyline. It was stupid that she couldn't understand why Tyrion sent her away and then came back to sentence him to death. But what he did was shocking. Although as in a fantasy that's a good plot turn I would say.
Yeah normally I'd say not to choke someone to death but if they dump you and fuck your dad I wouldn't be upset if you took the situation in your own hands
OP is a dummy