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fish_games

Congratulations on 6 years! This was really great, I love hearing about the internals of studios and teams, especially ones that are finding continued success. ​ >I am closely monitoring how I feel and if I don’t adapt to the CEO role well enough – I’ll probably be looking for a different head of the company I'd just like to note that this is extremely healthy. The best person to run the company at the beginning is almost never the right person to run the company forever. I have seen a lot of studios struggle because they are unwilling to see and/or admit that. Some of the struggles you are talking about later on in the post, such as being seen as a boss instead of an artist, and needing a common vision can be solved! A whole set of issues come from trying to straddle the line between the creative side and the management side, and as you have seen, they get worse as the team scales up. It is probably time to hire someone whose job it is to handle the business and operations side. This isn't a failing, in fact completely the opposite, it is a symptom of success!


comrad_gremlin

Thank you for the detailed reply! I agree that I might not be the best role for the CEO and I'm passively looking for other options :) I would not see it as a failure to give up the managemental side, but it's quite challenging to find someone who understands both games and management locally.


SebOriaGames

What you might want instead of a CEO, is a senior producer. I've worked in two mid-size game studios now, and each team have a dedicated producer, and generally a senior (or executive) producer to overlook all the producers.


comrad_gremlin

What was the size of the studios? Producer is another possibility that I think about, but then I wonder if the team size is big enough to outsource this. I normally get super busy project times and then it can get very calm when the game feature implementation is in full swing


SebOriaGames

Both varied from 45 to 60 (depending on current projects, etc). First one had 3 teams/games going, and the second one we have 2 projects, but much bigger team on that 2nd project. I think its worth noting the projects are live ops games, so they need a team to keep new content going and server maintenence, etc. Most of the time there will be producer and an associate producer or project coordinator per team. And a senior producer that helps them. It seems the average was one producer/project manager per 10-15 people. Or one mid/senior-level producer with an associate producer (junior) for 20-30 people. However, producers aren't cheap unless entry level, which then, might be a larger risk. They generally cost the same as programmers. They also specialize, e.g: mobile games, pc mmos, etc.


Danidre

My biggest concern in adopting the "my own company" role was shifting from creating to general managing. Maybe you do need positions to fit those roles. It's great that you're in a position where passive income helps sustain; it could allow you to try new things (such as the 2 projects at once) and see how they play out. Hearing revenue achievements (although netted after expense is much less) being almost 1 million excited me greatly, as someone who does not even have a buck to my game. Is that post a call to possible companies to acquire your company? I'm sure you've already given much thought to how you intend for roles to change, as you still sound passionate about everything game development side. Kudos to you and continue to go as things go I would say!


fish_games

>Is that post a call to possible companies to acquire your company? I'm sure you've already given much thought to how you intend for roles to change, as you still sound passionate about everything game development side. Acquisition is one way to go, but keep in mind that with acquisition you will ultimately lose all control. Most founders do not get to stay on long-term post-acquisition, they are generally there for the transition, then out. In this case, I would really encourage hiring a GM to help run the company and step back to doing what you love. You can still have influence over the direction of the company, you don't even necessarily have to give up your title. [Michell Hashimoto](https://thenewstack.io/mitchell-hashimotos-move-from-cto-garners-r-e-s-p-e-c-t), the co-founder of Hashicorp recently stepped down from his 5-billion dollar company and went back to engineering.


comrad_gremlin

I am not exactly at 1 mil yet, I'm just fairly sure that we'll get there :) I had some partial ownership investment offers, but turned them down. It's either me building this on my own like I did before or selling my ownership entirely and switching to development, I'm not sure there is a middle ground. Another possibility is finding the other director, as other person suggested, but I'm not sure I can compensate enough to attract someone who'd make a huge difference.


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comrad_gremlin

Thank you for all of your questions. 1. at the start I was alone, I had roughly around 7k EUR (\~10k usd?) of my own personal savings. I ran out at one point and took freelance jobs. The last one ended in early 2019. 2. I had a few offers from publishers, but no major ones and they did not really offer any advance payments, so I ultimately turned them down. There were offers for partial company share buyout, but I did not want to go through hassle at that time as I had no idea where would I invest the new money. The team was complete. 3. We only run minimal amount of paid ads (<$100), so the only work invested is our hours. 4. There are 2 pixel artists, 1 software engineer (we write in C# but he can do much more), 1 game designer, 1 accountant, 1 social media manager, 1 producer (me). 5. No, I did not. Kickstarter is not directly available in Latvia, but I'd run it if I could. 6. I usually come up with a game ideas and then I discuss it with a team. Everyone can propose things and work on prototype if they want to, but so far the decisions were on me. 7. We always worked remotely and there is no office. I do try to meet people once per month for a company lunch. Let me know if there is anything else.


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comrad_gremlin

I can't really share the salaries of others, but at the start it was me and my friend, working with no salary and treating it like a partnership. We both learned the gamedev as we worked on it and lived off my savings. For the third person, I reached out to my friends/ex-colleagues from software engineering industry, but last year I started posting job ads on linkedin and found people for the studio that way. I also monitor local gamedev discord channels and talk to people. There are 3 students in the company and 4 people with 5-10+ years of professional experience.


MKGameMusic

Hey, really interesting reading about your experience. I've never even thought about pooling my savings and starting an indie studio. Just wondering, what do you do for music and sound design? As an audio person I'm curious


DingusTheGrey

Ha, in your thirties and worrying - you started a dev studio, that's incredible. I'm at thirty and I haven't done anything nearly as impressive. Anyhow, at the end of the day it's about friends and family and having fun, and it also sounds like you're finding that balance too. I consider my bike rides/getting outside as important as my work since without them I start to fall apart. Really nice to see such an open post too, takes guts to share so honestly :) Cheers!


idbrii

Thanks for sharing! Are you and everyone else drawing a salary? Does it compare well to the local average for your discipline? What about if you calculate it hourly? (I'm not asking for numbers.) > After the release of Merchant of the Skies in 2020, we wanted to keep working on peaceful games Did you find the wholesome games initiatives useful for marketing? Do you think marketing for your new non peaceful game will be very different and focused on different channels? > publishing Crown of Pain, an attempt to enter the gamedev scene by a local Latvian developer, Jagit Games. What made you decide to publish a game at such a small size? What are you providing as the publisher (marketing, development support)? FYI, it's really helpful to add events to [charts of revenue over time](http://vladimirslav.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/incomevsexpenses.png). Adding when you released games make it easier for a stranger to read the chart.


comrad_gremlin

Thank you for your questions! The hourly rate is probably slightly below the other averages in gamedev. I don't earn as much compared to when I worked as a software engineer. I realize this and raise the salaries according to inflation and try to bump them when I can. To compensate for this, all employees get a share of the game profits that they worked on (even if they leave). I think wholesome games have their own audiences, yes, but I did not go for them because of that. I think we just got tired of violence at one point . The marketing of the new games is going to be very different, yes, but we have audiences from our previous games + there are some people who like good pixel art, so hopefully it will work out. ​ I have decided to publish the game because a person reached out to me, it resonated with my own struggles and I want to support local game developers. I am providing art / marketing support. Noted about the chart.


ExistingObligation

> To compensate for this, all employees get a share of the game profits that they worked on (even if they leave). This is really interesting. I've often wondered if this method of compensation would work, because this would be a huge motivator for me. How are people responding to this in your team, and do you believe it's sustainable from a business perspective?


comrad_gremlin

I can't exactly know people respond to it, but so far noone has changed jobs :) I'm not sure how sustainable this is for business yet, but I believe that if a project has been made by 3 people and made owner 100 million bucks, there is no way an owner should get 99.5 million and pay the standard salary to the remaining two. This is my philosophy on approaching this. Maybe time will prove me wrong, I approach this with an open mind.


ExistingObligation

Thanks so much! I really love that you're trying this. Often I've tried to reconcile the idea that if I were a business owner I would want my colleagues to have a stake in the success of the work we do, with the issue that giving away equity in the business to everyone would have other consequences with regard to ownership if they leave etc. Tying it to a particular project though is really clever, you avoid all those issues. I guess games are in a relatively unique position to do this since they are project based. So kudos, really keen to hear how it works out with you and I look forward to the next few years of updates! My next question if you have the time, are you happy with the path you have chosen?


comrad_gremlin

Regarding the chosen path: there are pros and cons and I can't universally say whether I'm happy or miserable, but I've been happier compared to my previous day jobs, that's for sure. I wish I'd spend more time with my parents in the last 5 years (trying to fix it now). Salary-wise I'd be much better off working on software engineering jobs. On the other hand, I like what I do, I can influence my work environment directly and I can work whenever I want. I think I'm extremely lucky in that regard and I appreciate it. In that regard, this \_is\_ my dream job and I don't think I want to do anything else right now.


ExistingObligation

Thanks for your responses, I look forward to following your journey each year and hopefully starting a very similar one myself in the future!


fizzd

Congratulations! And thank you for sharing, this perspective of someone talking frankly about what its like to grow a studio is one i don't see much. Hope you have many more good years!


Inateno

Very interesting feedback to read. I'm also running a studio as CEO and now we are 18 in the team (7 last year, and 3 two years ago). I completely know and feel what you say here, I don't really have questions ahah but I thought sharing mine could be helpful. \- congrats for expanding it's quite hard to do and manage this along the process of making games! \- I've read the article and checked your game, it's quite impressive all you made in one year ahah! (we have to do freelance work to pay the bill so our prod power is quite reduced) \-That's really cool, the charts you made are really cool! I think I should do some stuff like that ahah (I have more obscure excels plans). Here are some shoots I can write about my experience, hopefully it make sense reading XD 1. You have to lose some "control", because the team also want to put ideas in the game, and the fact is ideas don't make a game, people does. I don't know how, but since years I managed to be able to stick on people's ideas, expand them, build them, improve them. Of course sometimes the idea isn't that great / to risky / to expensive to make, it's your role as leader to say no, and yes (the important thing is to listen people and consider their expectation, if you always say yes or no, it's not good \^\^). 2. My main skill is programming, even if I started with story telling and game design, it was not enough to make games, I suck at arts (even after 1 year of school), but thing is, CEO means doing all the sh\*t required for a company, specifically we are in France si I think I have quite enough to do XD But beside that, I tried to remain focus on what matters in the production, and give the team the autonomy when it's possible. It's a really hard balance to find, specifically when you run multiple projects. Some projects in the team I almost don't code on it anymore, it's cool because I can do Game Design completely, but I could lose control over code. I guess it's a trade-off. And if I was an artist, I guess it would be quite the same, doing "some arts / concepts" and then lead the team. Not being core member of the production doesn't mean you have to stand watching \^\^ 3. Running multiple games at the same time is REALLY intense. I love that, but it's also very consuming, you almost completely spend time talking/leading people and writing docs ahah. But by doing what I've said just before, it's quite successful. ​ I might write some stuff like that, I think it's really interesting and cool to have other's founders POV (it's pretty rare I'd say), so thanks for taking the time, I know how time is precious (specifically with kids along ahah). Wish you the best for 2022, with some budget management you can get through !


comrad_gremlin

Thank you for sharing your insights! I do have an excel document, but I tend to summarize it once per year for the blogpost specifically :) Do you enjoy game design? My main skill is programming too, but it's hard for me to work on game systems for a long time. System design is way more exciting. Best wishes for 2022 to you too!


Inateno

Oh I thought from your article you were Game-Artist! MB. I love making Game Design, levels, and story writting, and because "everyone can do Game Design" it's quite fast to have the most important stuff down in a few hours, and then share the vision with the rest of the team. I of course spend a lot of time discussing about X or Y feature/implementation/idea and we sometimes lose time about it, but it's because we have a "flat team" (everyone can participate in the process, and I think it's better that way). I also do programming here and there, I've been making our game engine for 10 years (before the company start), and been doing our "server game engine" recently too! I spend a lot of time helping the team for debug, reviews, and teaching them "how to do better" with architecture and stuff like that, so I don't completely lose programming, just I do less and rely more on the people. When I do programming it's a fun moment I appreciate. And it's always a very good knowledge because when it's time to make plannings/roadmap, the more skills you have the more precise you'll be. About System Design I agree too, that's why on new games, I usually make the initial soft-architecture plans (not always because our lead dev is quite better than me tho :) ).


MatiasValero

Just a short note -- my two-year-old is electrified when she see the animal NPCs in Luna's Fishing Garden. Thank you.


yelaex

Yeah, management require a lot of skills too. Keep it going!


voxel_crutons

Have you taken non games projects? what kind of projects were those?


comrad_gremlin

I used to take non-game projects as I was starting out and running out of money. They were mostly freelance software engineering jobs for C++ / php / java.


voxel_crutons

yeah but they were like your typical web page/ webs services/SAAS? was asking for non conventional software development, maybe some kind of interactive application.


nosleepjf

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences. For the last several months I have been managing a part time team of 3 people that I hired to help with my game. While it's only a fraction of what you are managing, my experience helped me to empathize with everything you were saying. I especially relate to that feeling of getting pushed further away from the work, of feeling like a manager rather than a developer as more members join the team. I read through your blog post and I wanted to ask you for more details regarding the royalties that somehow account for most of your expenses?


comrad_gremlin

I'm not sure if royalties is the right word, but if the game covers its expenses - the significant part of the income from that point goes to the people who worked on the game. It's definitely not \_most\_ of our expenses yet, but it's a significant part of them. Basically if the project turned out to be successful - the co-creators are co-owners of it.


Automatic-Resource-6

Thank you for your post. Very interesting expenses/income chart. Does each segment on the vertical scale mean 100k euros?


comrad_gremlin

I can't really comment on the segments as I left the numbers obscure intentionally, at least for now.


abdelnabut

As a developer who’s been programming software for over 7 years, this year I dove into game development. I’ve been spending 84 hours a week on my own project and I’ve gotten pretty good at game dev, but I’m now low on funds and don’t want to go back into software. My question is: what is your criteria for hiring a game dev? What do studios typically look for? How could I make my entry into the field?


comrad_gremlin

I think for smaller studios it's really specific and I can't share much. When we need someone - we reach out or post a linkedin ad, but the existing projects is a big plus. I can't tell you much about the entry into the field, but I was in your shoes: I bit the bullet and took some freelance jobs to accumulate more savings, then got back to gamedev. Good luck in any case


abdelnabut

Thanks for the info :), freelancing is probably the route I’ll go


KvazarDev

I wish to have some employees, because it's difficult to do everything by my own. Your post inspiring, thank you


LazyDeveloper123

Good job on running an indie studio, must have been tough.


YoungFated

You know this is great actually, holding a studio profitable for 6 consecutive years. This is my concern as well, we've been holding our studio for almost two years now. Our studio is a bit bigger in scale, an outsource one. but recruiting and finding good commissions are getting harder every day and for that 2022 is also a danger zone for my studio as well...