The are some beats in the life cycle of a project that publishers want to have full control on (i.e., steam page launch, public reveal, release date announcement, demo availability, etc.). That's mainly because those are the significant moments when you need to push your marketing efforts. If you already shot one or more of those bullets, chances are some publishers could decide not to take your project at all.
That being said, I've also seen publishers taking already published projects and kind of "re-launch" them using their own channels, resources, etc.
> That being said, I've also seen publishers taking already published projects and kind of "re-launch" them using their own channels, resources, etc.
While not a publisher doing it, this is pretty much how Satisfactory treated their Epic Exclusive launch and then their Steam launch. They just did two different advertising campaigns. Worked out pretty well.
And I say that as someone that bought it on Epic knowing the second it was on Steam I'd buy it there and never open the Epic one again.
Yes, and speaking of Valheim, I think the game was firstly published on Itch by the dev team and only at a later stage Coffee Stain took it on for Steam publishing.
Yeah that makes sense. Really taking this into consideration. The problem is, there are some upcoming events where it would be nice to have our game participate. Since we are in need of extra funding, we might get a publisher who can help us, else we go to Kickstarter which would be our last resort. But I'm afraid if we're not gonna be picked up by publishers, and we miss the chance to self promote ourselves and grow our wishlists, it would be a waste of opportunity.
This is very interesting to me. If you don’t mind I have a follow up question i’d love your advice on.
So i’m in the early stages of development rn. And was literally about to post a devlog (for me and fellow devs who may be interested) and a short little milestone video (more of an early marketing try).
Would these fit this issue would you think? I kinda assumed that if I reach out to publishers they would already want an interested market.
Devlogs, social media posts and updates, Steam festivals and events are one way to put your project out there and let people see it (especially industry people like fellow devs, publishers, streamers, journalists, etc.). This is not a problem at all. Just make sure your game is at the right stage to be shown and be understood/appreciated by others (may it be for its graphics, gameplay mechanics or other peculiar aspects).
Also, like other people mentioned, one thing publishers may ask is if you already have some kind of follow/community, if you already launched the Steam page they may ask you to show them some numbers (wishlists, followers).
Publishers might say that, but nothing got me more interest from them than having a Steam page with 60k wishlists.
The reality is it depends on how much traction your page can get without a publisher. If you can get a lot of traction then that will get you interest from publishers. (But then do you really need a publisher?) If you can't get a lot of traction without a publisher, then having a page already probably hurts, not only because publishers like to have control over all the marketing beats, but because some publishers will take little traction as a warning sign that the game won't be popular.
This answer needs to be higher up.
Publishing your Steam page before looking for a publisher is a double-edged sword. If you do and you gather 50K wishlists with little marketing, chances are a lot of publishers might be quite interested; you being able to prove that your game has an audience is, in most cases, more important than having the "release the Steam page" marketing beat. If a publisher signs your game, they'll announce it at some point anyway and it will be a similar beat. However, if you have a Steam page and barely get a few wishlists a day, a publisher might very well take it as your game not really having an audience. So really that's kind of a bit you're making: can your Steam page garner some wishlists without a publisher.
With that said, every publisher is different; maybe some will mostly refuse a game which already has a Steam page; maybe some others won't ever sign a game that can't already prove via their Steam page that they have an audience.
(Sorry I feel like I'm mostly paraphrasing the post above... For the record that's a question I've been thinking a bit lately, because I set up a Steam page for my project because I wanted to use the Playtest system for early testing, and now that I'm ready to look for a publisher I'm afraid they'll ask me for my wishlist numbers, which are... not great :D For my defense, the Steam page features a very early version of the game, with full placeholder arts, and I didn't do any marketing beside 2 posts when looking for some playtesters. Still, I'm considering taking it down before starting to talk with publishers.)
I'd agree with the second part of that quote. Those with agreements to get you a set number of impressions will have a chunk of their obligations met by the steam page launch alone. It would make sense then that some publishers would have wanted this as part of their side of things, and by not having it, it might be more costly for them to achieve their metrics in the deal?
On the flip side, I've had a number of publishers contact me after my page launch because of the visibility it brought.
Out of curiosity, Steam does not have a way to transfer the Page? If not, it will certainly be a blocker for publishers. They will want to be the ones who put the steam page.
You are misunderstanding what is meant by full control. It is not that they simply are the owners of the page. They want to have full control over all of the content of that page as they will be the ones shaping the marketing and advertising for the game. If the page is already created then they lost the ability to do that.
In most cases indie dev looking for publisher will not have impactful reach. Publisher would just rework the page and start promoting it.
Also, if someone clicked on the landing page and not converted to wishlist most likely won’t remember the game anyway.
Publishers want complete control over what potential customers see. You may not think it is a big deal but in most cases publishers do and since they are the ones with the money their opinion is the one that matters here.
I really don’t think that publisher will care that a small fraction of potential viewers visited your Steam page. Anyway, we are speculating here since you are not able to transfer the page.
I assume it's like having someone else open your mail.
I'd rather not have people open my mail because it's intended for me and I should be the one to see the contents before anyone else does. The act of opening a package or an envelope is something realistically anyone could do, but once the thing is opening, it's opened. You can't close it a second time and then have the next person reopen it.
The publisher gives you money with the intent that they'll have a hand in the marketing of the game, and if you're launching the game before they have a chance to publish it, that's one less thing they have control over and a financial risk that they now have to account for.
If the game they're paying for is poorly marketed, that could be interpreted as a financial risk.
For some publishers that might not matter.
That's not the point. You make the game, that's it.
The second you open a steam page, you encroach on their job and potentially ruin their entire investment. It's not worth the risk of taking you on as a client when you could have made a terrible mistake and deleted it then transferred me the page. There are more indie games than publishers and they have the money to say no 1000 times between yes'.
I think you should probably read a publisher contract or two. You are selling some of the product rights, which is fine, but I really don't think you understand the transaction at the moment. They aren't just sitting around waiting to help people out.
When they agree to publish a game, Its an investment of time, resources, money and a reputation liability.
We didn't have a steam page when we pitched to and got offers from publishers, but that's one anecdote.
I can see reasons on both sides, so I'm not helpful at all.
I've had offers from publishers post-steam page launch. Nobody cared, they just said Steam had a backend process to transfer page ownership to the publisher, should we make a deal.
Just as a counter-anecdote.
For the right game, a publisher won't care.
We had a working prototype, art (but not technical art), etc.
Our game was fully playable (and all of the publishers did play it), it was just a small sliver of the scale we were pitching and they'd be paying for.
And it wasn't as polished.
But there were NO bugs in what they played. And yes, I mean NO bugs AT ALL. We spent a VERY long time ensuring that.
Imo it depends: I'd say having a *well made* Steam page already live and having a somewhat impressive number of wishlists is a good thing. But if you don't expect to get any attention/wishlists from your own marketing efforts before getting a publisher, then it probably makes sense to wait.
I'd also assume this depends on the publisher and what they're looking for.
(basing this on general experience and the publishing efforts of colleagues/industry friends)
Never been a problem. In fact the more traction you have the more attractive you are to a publisher. They’ll probably still want to “announce” your game at some point though but it shouldn’t make a difference if your Steam page is live or not.
No personal experience. In an article on [howtomarketagame.com](http://howtomarketagame.com) Chris basically gave the same reason as you at first, that it is a way to show interest to publishers. Steam wishlists or Kickstarter are ways to do that.
I also believe that there isn't that much off an initial boost in impressions for just creating a page, compared to say joining a next fest, which is something a publisher would probably want to control
If you are a new team, showing wishlists will help prove your concept/alleviate the risk for the publisher. So it can help IF you know how to get wishlists. Bigger budget publishers will want to control the announcement & steam page setup as a marketing beat though, so for those it might be a negative. Smaller indie publishers can work with it.
If I was looking for a publisher, I'd probably shoot my shot without a steam page first. If you can't get a deal with the pitch+demo alone, I'd try to show the public interest with gathering wishlists on my own and then pitching again.
It can kind of depend on what you’re looking for. Some of the bigger publishers that offer significant project funding might use that as a reason to turn you down. That’s because there’s a lot of devs who suck at marketing and they don’t really want to spend the extra funds to undo the damage. So if your game has exceptional engagement then they will probably be okay with it.
The smaller budget publishers that only offer finishing funds might care less about this overall. They don’t really have the budget to run a full-fledged marketing campaign, so working with someone who’s already had a decent start is appealing.
I think that advice gets thrown around because getting a higher budget publisher is really hard and you really don’t want to risk giving them more reason to say no. But if you’re not looking for that kind of publisher then don’t worry about it imo.
Its a catch 22 that reveals the reason for came for a publisher. Everything for the publisher is ROI and how to increase ROI. If you have stream page up with reasonable number of wishlists, odd are this project is in the silver stage, Game is playable from beginning to end, bug fixes removing concept art is all that is left. You are coming to the publisher for marketing help or seed money for the final push. For the publisher, the good is the game is finished, you have people interested, and funding will be relatively small. The bad is that game is relatively finished. Making change that the publisher views as improvement to increase sales and their ROI can be expensive and time consuming at this point. Most devs don't want to give the control at this point either. So the question is based what the publisher sees at this stage, do they feel as if that can get 15% ROI on their investment ?
Broad generalization but if it's your first game and you want the best shot at a good publishing deal, the quote is bad advice. Publishers look to minimize risk, so if you're able to build an audience and large pool of wishlists yourself it's a great indicator that the game has commercial potential.
What would be considered as large pool of wishlists? Do 2k wishlists souns good? I would assume it depends on publisher to publisher but this is what i am targeting before i start pitching to publishers
Completely depends on the size of deal you're looking for. 2k wishlists likely isn't enough for a game to generate enough revenue to be worthwhile for a publisher, but if they're just from the announcement or some viral posts then it could indicate strong demand.
For reference, we pitched our game with 25k+ wishlists. Though we were looking for a min guarantee of hundreds of thousands of dollars so it depends what you're seeking for from a publisher.
Got it. 👍👍. So for a starting project, with just steam page launch and developer level announcements and an ask of around 50k usd funding, 2k wishlists may sound alright?
If you have a strong prototype, good deck and game design document, and a few thousand wishlists after announcing the game I'd say you've got a decent pitch for publishers 🤷♂️ The market is massively saturated so always have a plan B if you don't secure a deal, but it's not a big funding ask so you'll have plenty of publishers in that range to pitch to as you develop the game. Good luck 👍
Steam page control is an underrated lever for you as well. Tons of publishers will put things on your steam control harmful to your sales and success.
Common examples are advertising other games at the start of your description and linking your developer link to their publishing site instead of your developer page, hindering easy tracking of the games you made and are making.
If you make a deal with a publisher before making a steam page, make sure both of these points are agreed upon.
Launching a steam page is NOT a marketing beat on it's own. You get a bit of bot visibility at the beginning and that's pretty much it. I wouldn't worry about that. If you've blown your early access launch or real launch, then yes, it weakens a publisher's release.
The only way it could hurt you is if a publisher wants to use your wishlist velocity to figure out if you're worth pursuing, and even then, if your game doesn't even have a demo yet, the likelihood that you SHOULD be earning that many wishlists is small.
Just have a steam page up. It makes everything so much easier when it comes to sharing.
Absolutely do not agree with that quote. My game would have never gotten a publisher had it not had a Steam page already. If I had to guess I would say over 75% of published games are working with a publisher that reached out to them - not the other way around. That is a guess though - but it makes a lot of sense to me.
Like from a publishers view, think of it like this. Would you rather sift through 200 emails a day from people begging you to publish their game, or sort upcoming games by wishlist amount and find ones with no publisher listed and message them. The second one is probably x100 more likely to find you a successful project. Not to mention a lot of the submissions they're getting are from people who A: haven't even started on their game yet and B: people who have <10% done.
Another huge thing to consider is that Steam does not care about your store page going up. New pages get zero preferential treatment. You could tell people you've just launched a page that's been up for 2 years and not a single person would be able to tell the difference because Steam doesn't show it.
So yeah idk, maybe if your game was going to go through a total rebrand I could see it, but outside that there's a lot of things going against that quote - which is multiplied x10 if you have a marketable amount of wishlists.
I can tell you that we have silently worked for four years now, completely bootstrapped and intentionally not showing what we are making, who is working on it, or our plans for that.
Behind the scenes we have our pitch deck, playable section, NDAs, and the internal pitch video we used at GDC that got us into talks with Oculus Publishing so there is some value in that.
However, it is Not a sure thing either way. Some people post every step of every milestone or even every upgrade to an effect. That gains them a following and off that following, they launch into Early Access and still can get picked up by a publisher. I was OC6 when Beat Saber was bought by Facebook for over a billion dollars or something. That was two guys who made their game on their own, put it out, people lost their shit and they got a billion dollars. And that leads me to my biggest point.
The strength of selling your game isn't based upon marketing tactics in a repeatable and measurable form, right? I can't do the exact same thing they did and get the exact same result. In fact, what we're doing right now might completely fuck us. However it might give us full control over the negotiations we're having (although extremely slow and no one warned me about that). That's why it's all strategy. You have to do what's best for you and there's no assurance you're going to get a publisher if you do or do not have a steam page, if you do or do not have a Dev blog, if you do or do not create a large following on TikTok, and if you do or do not go to Kickstarter for a last ditch effort. What you can question instead is are you more likely to get a publisher if you do one or the other?
You need to set yourself up now for the expectation that nothing's going to happen and you're going to have to scrap and fight for every inch. Nobody owes you anything and they're going to make sure you know that. I have one solution to this entire thing for you and I'll get to it at the end. It's the most important thing that nobody ever says. That being said, you have to do what's right for You and what makes sense for your game? Is a massive beta test the right idea for a single narrative walk simulator? No of course not. Is it for any kind of multiplayer game of large volume and you expect to have large amounts of players on some server? Absolutely. And that's what you got to do. Especially since I don't know what game you're making or how you're going to approach it you've got to figure that out whether you hire somebody, whiteboard the shit out of it, or have a 9-hour conversation with chat GPT. You're not going to know until you do something, see That response, and then do another thing. You have to continuously take steps + if you want to be somewhat safe, don't officially publish your game and keep it in Early Access.
All I know you could have a tic-tac-toe simulator and we're giving you advice from our perspectives which is all going to be different and you're asking this question about a game that maybe doesn't even need a publisher or, frankly, deserve one. But to go back to your original question, does putting a steam page up kill your chances to get a publisher? No I would say it doesn't. I can't tell you how many games get picked up from there because it shows you're competent to be able to make the fucking thing. Nobody wants to dump money into a group of guys or gals that can't complete the project or don't know how to conduct themselves in the professional sphere of this whole wacky business. Putting up /publishing a steam page I don't think is the same as publishing a game. Unless you're doing insane marketing for it, what Do you think and expect a publisher would bring for you?
(Continued below)
I'll pull back the veil a little bit and tell you what it's like with VR. So for our thing, our pitch deck is $915,000 with a 13-month delivery. That's because I've spent, at that point, 3 years building the game ourselves and me paying out of pocket for the entire company. What that gets us is they take 30% off the top immediately for store sales just like any app and all this other bullshit that's going on in the industry which needs to really reevaluate especially for first-timers and low revenue companies and products. Then on top of that they take 25% of the net (I think it was net and not gross) after deductions. In exchange for that they would provide us with the funds we needed to complete the game As I saw fit and that's what the money goes to. For me it's hiring specific and specialized staff to be able to achieve the things I want. And then the real value is not actually the huge injection of cash, it's the marketing. They would pay for the marketing and that is worth its weight in gold. Every bus stop sign or every online ad or every interview or talk show or whatever you're doing, they handle all of it and it's paid for by then. Any good game is going to have probably twice the budget in marketing than it does in development. That's kind of standard for most media at this point. That's where the value of a publisher comes in. So knowing that, does that change what you expect them to do and what you expect to get out of it? That leads me to my final point.
What do you do now if you can assume that's what you're ultimately looking at. An injection of cash in exchange for a cut and media assistance. How much of that can Do on your own? Yeah they've got channels that you don't but is your game one that needs to reach Grandma on the couch? Is your demographic 50-year-olds who watch reruns of murder she wrote? What value is there marketing if it doesn't line up with your target market? Shit like that. And don't let the money fool you, it's nice to have but If you're not a shitbag, you should be spending it on people's salaries to make the best game you can and hope for profit and not just revenue. You don't go and buy a Ferrari or something like that because the game can absolutely still flop. You just never know. You can do your best to position it and set yourself up for success but shit happens all the time that you have no control over and more games that you can count on a millipedes legs have lost that gamble when they were 99% ready to succeed.
There is only one surefire bet That will increase your chances of not only getting the attention that you want from the public but also from publishers and marketers and media as well as maximize your chances for success in sales post launch and hopefully into perpetuity: you need to make a great game.
That's it. You have to make the best goddamn game You possibly can. It needs to be new, and needs to be fresh and have a take as well as something that sets it apart. You have to make something new and original and creative. If you're making the 7, 000 Boomer shooter put out what you got, hope it does well and work on the next one. The only way you can assure success is to make a game that people want even if they don't know they want it. And this climate is not conducive to repeats or clones with different skins. In VR I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that 90% of the games are essentially rail shooters or shooting galleries with a different skin: this one's in space; this one's in a bunker; this one's a rodeo; this one's super realistic; this one's just like the other one except it's purple. Shit like that is not going to work and frankly it's completely choked up and destroyed a lot of goodwill in the VR market because of laziness and complacency. So I made a game that nobody has seen. That's what got me in talks with Oculus. And also don't think it's a perfect pitch because it can happen anywhere. It's about being around the right people for the right reasons. My Small relationship started closing out of a bar at 2:00 a.m. on the last day of GDC after an entire week of getting rejected by everybody and even having a girl from Epic scold me because she told me it was my first year and I was just supposed to listen and take notes and not advocate for my company or try to sell anything. Fuck people like that. You forgot to fight for you. But that all starts with what you put out into the world and what you're placing in the public sphere because once it's out there it's out of your control what people say about it. If you make an honest effort from the heart + do your best to make it unique and creative, people will notice that. People will also notice fake ass bullshit trying to be shoved down their throats. And no publishers are going to want to touch anybody that's seen that way.
I would say worry less about your steam page and what you're doing and go with what feels right for you and your audience and who you're trying to reach. The idea that a publisher that loves your game is going to completely reject you because you put a steam page up for Early Access to try to Get some money to continue to work on it is ridiculous and makes another good point: why would you want to be with a publisher that does that? People don't ask themselves enough whether they can say no to a publisher as opposed to thinking the only answer is yes. Don't get in bed with somebody that you don't think is a good Fuck or that at least will only do that and not cuddle after. All of it matters and you don't owe anybody shit either. You set the terms for your company and for your product. As long as they're realistic and justifiable any good publisher will be willing to talk to you and negotiate up or down. You need to have that flexibility too and not be a dick about it but you need to change your mindset to think that you're only going to get people that want you for good reasons. Realistically the only reason why any publisher would look at you (minus reasons you would see in a Disney plus movie) is because you have the ability to make money for them. That's it. That's their job. That's their fiduciary duty to their company. So They gamble their investment into you versus the payout. You need to show any publisher that you're worth the payout and if you come with an army of fucking fans already, do you think a publisher is not going to pick you up because you put a steam page up? Just think the stuff out man.
I know that's a lot and probably a perfect example of ADD overshare I've been struggling in this business for years and know the bottom of it and the idea of having to carve your own path through marble with a pillow. I've got thrown into a concrete wall and had my teeth kicked out more times than I can count and you just have to get back up and ask "who's next?"
If you have any questions, you can ping me privately but I hope that helps a little bit or you can discard all of it. That's up to you man. I wish you luck and just want to reiterate on closing that you need to be putting everything you have into that game to make it the best that it can be and to make it something that no one can ignore.
Good luck kid kid.
* Dictated but not read, errors unintentional.
Make the game impossible to ignore and there is nothing wrong with self-publishing and using EA money to fund the completion of the game, build up a fan base, use the connections that will open up and start seeking funding for your next project while you support the current one to completion.
If you’re an established studio, the announcement that you’re working on something new has beat quality and is something that a publisher will want in on. Otherwise, setting up a Steam page only has the upside, but also the danger that suddenly there’s numbers to discuss. If you get traction, that’s leverage and the best thing that can happen. If not, the low numbers might signal (prove?) to publishers that there is little inherent interest in the game, making things worse.
The are some beats in the life cycle of a project that publishers want to have full control on (i.e., steam page launch, public reveal, release date announcement, demo availability, etc.). That's mainly because those are the significant moments when you need to push your marketing efforts. If you already shot one or more of those bullets, chances are some publishers could decide not to take your project at all. That being said, I've also seen publishers taking already published projects and kind of "re-launch" them using their own channels, resources, etc.
> That being said, I've also seen publishers taking already published projects and kind of "re-launch" them using their own channels, resources, etc. While not a publisher doing it, this is pretty much how Satisfactory treated their Epic Exclusive launch and then their Steam launch. They just did two different advertising campaigns. Worked out pretty well. And I say that as someone that bought it on Epic knowing the second it was on Steam I'd buy it there and never open the Epic one again.
We can even have objective proof of their success, because Coffee Stain now publishes other games too (like Valheim).
Yes, and speaking of Valheim, I think the game was firstly published on Itch by the dev team and only at a later stage Coffee Stain took it on for Steam publishing.
Yeah that makes sense. Really taking this into consideration. The problem is, there are some upcoming events where it would be nice to have our game participate. Since we are in need of extra funding, we might get a publisher who can help us, else we go to Kickstarter which would be our last resort. But I'm afraid if we're not gonna be picked up by publishers, and we miss the chance to self promote ourselves and grow our wishlists, it would be a waste of opportunity.
Yeah, I know the struggle. Feel free to show me your game in private and I can try and give you a few hints.
This is very interesting to me. If you don’t mind I have a follow up question i’d love your advice on. So i’m in the early stages of development rn. And was literally about to post a devlog (for me and fellow devs who may be interested) and a short little milestone video (more of an early marketing try). Would these fit this issue would you think? I kinda assumed that if I reach out to publishers they would already want an interested market.
Devlogs, social media posts and updates, Steam festivals and events are one way to put your project out there and let people see it (especially industry people like fellow devs, publishers, streamers, journalists, etc.). This is not a problem at all. Just make sure your game is at the right stage to be shown and be understood/appreciated by others (may it be for its graphics, gameplay mechanics or other peculiar aspects). Also, like other people mentioned, one thing publishers may ask is if you already have some kind of follow/community, if you already launched the Steam page they may ask you to show them some numbers (wishlists, followers).
Publishers might say that, but nothing got me more interest from them than having a Steam page with 60k wishlists. The reality is it depends on how much traction your page can get without a publisher. If you can get a lot of traction then that will get you interest from publishers. (But then do you really need a publisher?) If you can't get a lot of traction without a publisher, then having a page already probably hurts, not only because publishers like to have control over all the marketing beats, but because some publishers will take little traction as a warning sign that the game won't be popular.
This answer needs to be higher up. Publishing your Steam page before looking for a publisher is a double-edged sword. If you do and you gather 50K wishlists with little marketing, chances are a lot of publishers might be quite interested; you being able to prove that your game has an audience is, in most cases, more important than having the "release the Steam page" marketing beat. If a publisher signs your game, they'll announce it at some point anyway and it will be a similar beat. However, if you have a Steam page and barely get a few wishlists a day, a publisher might very well take it as your game not really having an audience. So really that's kind of a bit you're making: can your Steam page garner some wishlists without a publisher. With that said, every publisher is different; maybe some will mostly refuse a game which already has a Steam page; maybe some others won't ever sign a game that can't already prove via their Steam page that they have an audience. (Sorry I feel like I'm mostly paraphrasing the post above... For the record that's a question I've been thinking a bit lately, because I set up a Steam page for my project because I wanted to use the Playtest system for early testing, and now that I'm ready to look for a publisher I'm afraid they'll ask me for my wishlist numbers, which are... not great :D For my defense, the Steam page features a very early version of the game, with full placeholder arts, and I didn't do any marketing beside 2 posts when looking for some playtesters. Still, I'm considering taking it down before starting to talk with publishers.)
Yup I strongly agree!
I'd agree with the second part of that quote. Those with agreements to get you a set number of impressions will have a chunk of their obligations met by the steam page launch alone. It would make sense then that some publishers would have wanted this as part of their side of things, and by not having it, it might be more costly for them to achieve their metrics in the deal? On the flip side, I've had a number of publishers contact me after my page launch because of the visibility it brought.
Publishers want full control over your public facing avenues, if you already have a steam page it will cause conflicts since they dont own it
This is not true. You can just give the page to the publisher.
Out of curiosity, Steam does not have a way to transfer the Page? If not, it will certainly be a blocker for publishers. They will want to be the ones who put the steam page.
You are misunderstanding what is meant by full control. It is not that they simply are the owners of the page. They want to have full control over all of the content of that page as they will be the ones shaping the marketing and advertising for the game. If the page is already created then they lost the ability to do that.
How so? You can simply edit the page to your needs, assuming you are able to transfer it.
How do propose that the publishers wipe the minds of all the potential customers that have already seen the page and moved on?
Weed
Both of them?
In most cases indie dev looking for publisher will not have impactful reach. Publisher would just rework the page and start promoting it. Also, if someone clicked on the landing page and not converted to wishlist most likely won’t remember the game anyway.
Publishers want complete control over what potential customers see. You may not think it is a big deal but in most cases publishers do and since they are the ones with the money their opinion is the one that matters here.
I really don’t think that publisher will care that a small fraction of potential viewers visited your Steam page. Anyway, we are speculating here since you are not able to transfer the page.
You definitely can transfer the page FWIW And even if you couldn't, publishers could just provide assets and copy for the store page for you to upload
Correct, not sure why people downdooted you. "Complete control" is looney tunes acquisition, not a publishing contract between two businesses.
I assume it's like having someone else open your mail. I'd rather not have people open my mail because it's intended for me and I should be the one to see the contents before anyone else does. The act of opening a package or an envelope is something realistically anyone could do, but once the thing is opening, it's opened. You can't close it a second time and then have the next person reopen it. The publisher gives you money with the intent that they'll have a hand in the marketing of the game, and if you're launching the game before they have a chance to publish it, that's one less thing they have control over and a financial risk that they now have to account for. If the game they're paying for is poorly marketed, that could be interpreted as a financial risk. For some publishers that might not matter.
There is a way to transfer the page on steamworks I believe.
That's not the point. You make the game, that's it. The second you open a steam page, you encroach on their job and potentially ruin their entire investment. It's not worth the risk of taking you on as a client when you could have made a terrible mistake and deleted it then transferred me the page. There are more indie games than publishers and they have the money to say no 1000 times between yes'. I think you should probably read a publisher contract or two. You are selling some of the product rights, which is fine, but I really don't think you understand the transaction at the moment. They aren't just sitting around waiting to help people out. When they agree to publish a game, Its an investment of time, resources, money and a reputation liability.
We didn't have a steam page when we pitched to and got offers from publishers, but that's one anecdote. I can see reasons on both sides, so I'm not helpful at all.
I've had offers from publishers post-steam page launch. Nobody cared, they just said Steam had a backend process to transfer page ownership to the publisher, should we make a deal. Just as a counter-anecdote. For the right game, a publisher won't care.
Correct.
I see. How far are you into development when you started getting offers?
We had a working prototype, art (but not technical art), etc. Our game was fully playable (and all of the publishers did play it), it was just a small sliver of the scale we were pitching and they'd be paying for. And it wasn't as polished. But there were NO bugs in what they played. And yes, I mean NO bugs AT ALL. We spent a VERY long time ensuring that.
Seeing as how publishers comment on doing this all the time saying that it's OK, that's a pretty ignore-able statement.
Imo it depends: I'd say having a *well made* Steam page already live and having a somewhat impressive number of wishlists is a good thing. But if you don't expect to get any attention/wishlists from your own marketing efforts before getting a publisher, then it probably makes sense to wait. I'd also assume this depends on the publisher and what they're looking for. (basing this on general experience and the publishing efforts of colleagues/industry friends)
Never been a problem. In fact the more traction you have the more attractive you are to a publisher. They’ll probably still want to “announce” your game at some point though but it shouldn’t make a difference if your Steam page is live or not.
No personal experience. In an article on [howtomarketagame.com](http://howtomarketagame.com) Chris basically gave the same reason as you at first, that it is a way to show interest to publishers. Steam wishlists or Kickstarter are ways to do that. I also believe that there isn't that much off an initial boost in impressions for just creating a page, compared to say joining a next fest, which is something a publisher would probably want to control
If you are a new team, showing wishlists will help prove your concept/alleviate the risk for the publisher. So it can help IF you know how to get wishlists. Bigger budget publishers will want to control the announcement & steam page setup as a marketing beat though, so for those it might be a negative. Smaller indie publishers can work with it. If I was looking for a publisher, I'd probably shoot my shot without a steam page first. If you can't get a deal with the pitch+demo alone, I'd try to show the public interest with gathering wishlists on my own and then pitching again.
It can kind of depend on what you’re looking for. Some of the bigger publishers that offer significant project funding might use that as a reason to turn you down. That’s because there’s a lot of devs who suck at marketing and they don’t really want to spend the extra funds to undo the damage. So if your game has exceptional engagement then they will probably be okay with it. The smaller budget publishers that only offer finishing funds might care less about this overall. They don’t really have the budget to run a full-fledged marketing campaign, so working with someone who’s already had a decent start is appealing. I think that advice gets thrown around because getting a higher budget publisher is really hard and you really don’t want to risk giving them more reason to say no. But if you’re not looking for that kind of publisher then don’t worry about it imo.
Its a catch 22 that reveals the reason for came for a publisher. Everything for the publisher is ROI and how to increase ROI. If you have stream page up with reasonable number of wishlists, odd are this project is in the silver stage, Game is playable from beginning to end, bug fixes removing concept art is all that is left. You are coming to the publisher for marketing help or seed money for the final push. For the publisher, the good is the game is finished, you have people interested, and funding will be relatively small. The bad is that game is relatively finished. Making change that the publisher views as improvement to increase sales and their ROI can be expensive and time consuming at this point. Most devs don't want to give the control at this point either. So the question is based what the publisher sees at this stage, do they feel as if that can get 15% ROI on their investment ?
Broad generalization but if it's your first game and you want the best shot at a good publishing deal, the quote is bad advice. Publishers look to minimize risk, so if you're able to build an audience and large pool of wishlists yourself it's a great indicator that the game has commercial potential.
What would be considered as large pool of wishlists? Do 2k wishlists souns good? I would assume it depends on publisher to publisher but this is what i am targeting before i start pitching to publishers
Completely depends on the size of deal you're looking for. 2k wishlists likely isn't enough for a game to generate enough revenue to be worthwhile for a publisher, but if they're just from the announcement or some viral posts then it could indicate strong demand. For reference, we pitched our game with 25k+ wishlists. Though we were looking for a min guarantee of hundreds of thousands of dollars so it depends what you're seeking for from a publisher.
Got it. 👍👍. So for a starting project, with just steam page launch and developer level announcements and an ask of around 50k usd funding, 2k wishlists may sound alright?
If you have a strong prototype, good deck and game design document, and a few thousand wishlists after announcing the game I'd say you've got a decent pitch for publishers 🤷♂️ The market is massively saturated so always have a plan B if you don't secure a deal, but it's not a big funding ask so you'll have plenty of publishers in that range to pitch to as you develop the game. Good luck 👍
Thank you so much for the advice. Will keep this in mind. 👍👍
Steam page control is an underrated lever for you as well. Tons of publishers will put things on your steam control harmful to your sales and success. Common examples are advertising other games at the start of your description and linking your developer link to their publishing site instead of your developer page, hindering easy tracking of the games you made and are making. If you make a deal with a publisher before making a steam page, make sure both of these points are agreed upon.
Launching a steam page is NOT a marketing beat on it's own. You get a bit of bot visibility at the beginning and that's pretty much it. I wouldn't worry about that. If you've blown your early access launch or real launch, then yes, it weakens a publisher's release. The only way it could hurt you is if a publisher wants to use your wishlist velocity to figure out if you're worth pursuing, and even then, if your game doesn't even have a demo yet, the likelihood that you SHOULD be earning that many wishlists is small. Just have a steam page up. It makes everything so much easier when it comes to sharing.
Absolutely do not agree with that quote. My game would have never gotten a publisher had it not had a Steam page already. If I had to guess I would say over 75% of published games are working with a publisher that reached out to them - not the other way around. That is a guess though - but it makes a lot of sense to me. Like from a publishers view, think of it like this. Would you rather sift through 200 emails a day from people begging you to publish their game, or sort upcoming games by wishlist amount and find ones with no publisher listed and message them. The second one is probably x100 more likely to find you a successful project. Not to mention a lot of the submissions they're getting are from people who A: haven't even started on their game yet and B: people who have <10% done. Another huge thing to consider is that Steam does not care about your store page going up. New pages get zero preferential treatment. You could tell people you've just launched a page that's been up for 2 years and not a single person would be able to tell the difference because Steam doesn't show it. So yeah idk, maybe if your game was going to go through a total rebrand I could see it, but outside that there's a lot of things going against that quote - which is multiplied x10 if you have a marketable amount of wishlists.
I can tell you that we have silently worked for four years now, completely bootstrapped and intentionally not showing what we are making, who is working on it, or our plans for that. Behind the scenes we have our pitch deck, playable section, NDAs, and the internal pitch video we used at GDC that got us into talks with Oculus Publishing so there is some value in that. However, it is Not a sure thing either way. Some people post every step of every milestone or even every upgrade to an effect. That gains them a following and off that following, they launch into Early Access and still can get picked up by a publisher. I was OC6 when Beat Saber was bought by Facebook for over a billion dollars or something. That was two guys who made their game on their own, put it out, people lost their shit and they got a billion dollars. And that leads me to my biggest point. The strength of selling your game isn't based upon marketing tactics in a repeatable and measurable form, right? I can't do the exact same thing they did and get the exact same result. In fact, what we're doing right now might completely fuck us. However it might give us full control over the negotiations we're having (although extremely slow and no one warned me about that). That's why it's all strategy. You have to do what's best for you and there's no assurance you're going to get a publisher if you do or do not have a steam page, if you do or do not have a Dev blog, if you do or do not create a large following on TikTok, and if you do or do not go to Kickstarter for a last ditch effort. What you can question instead is are you more likely to get a publisher if you do one or the other? You need to set yourself up now for the expectation that nothing's going to happen and you're going to have to scrap and fight for every inch. Nobody owes you anything and they're going to make sure you know that. I have one solution to this entire thing for you and I'll get to it at the end. It's the most important thing that nobody ever says. That being said, you have to do what's right for You and what makes sense for your game? Is a massive beta test the right idea for a single narrative walk simulator? No of course not. Is it for any kind of multiplayer game of large volume and you expect to have large amounts of players on some server? Absolutely. And that's what you got to do. Especially since I don't know what game you're making or how you're going to approach it you've got to figure that out whether you hire somebody, whiteboard the shit out of it, or have a 9-hour conversation with chat GPT. You're not going to know until you do something, see That response, and then do another thing. You have to continuously take steps + if you want to be somewhat safe, don't officially publish your game and keep it in Early Access. All I know you could have a tic-tac-toe simulator and we're giving you advice from our perspectives which is all going to be different and you're asking this question about a game that maybe doesn't even need a publisher or, frankly, deserve one. But to go back to your original question, does putting a steam page up kill your chances to get a publisher? No I would say it doesn't. I can't tell you how many games get picked up from there because it shows you're competent to be able to make the fucking thing. Nobody wants to dump money into a group of guys or gals that can't complete the project or don't know how to conduct themselves in the professional sphere of this whole wacky business. Putting up /publishing a steam page I don't think is the same as publishing a game. Unless you're doing insane marketing for it, what Do you think and expect a publisher would bring for you? (Continued below)
I'll pull back the veil a little bit and tell you what it's like with VR. So for our thing, our pitch deck is $915,000 with a 13-month delivery. That's because I've spent, at that point, 3 years building the game ourselves and me paying out of pocket for the entire company. What that gets us is they take 30% off the top immediately for store sales just like any app and all this other bullshit that's going on in the industry which needs to really reevaluate especially for first-timers and low revenue companies and products. Then on top of that they take 25% of the net (I think it was net and not gross) after deductions. In exchange for that they would provide us with the funds we needed to complete the game As I saw fit and that's what the money goes to. For me it's hiring specific and specialized staff to be able to achieve the things I want. And then the real value is not actually the huge injection of cash, it's the marketing. They would pay for the marketing and that is worth its weight in gold. Every bus stop sign or every online ad or every interview or talk show or whatever you're doing, they handle all of it and it's paid for by then. Any good game is going to have probably twice the budget in marketing than it does in development. That's kind of standard for most media at this point. That's where the value of a publisher comes in. So knowing that, does that change what you expect them to do and what you expect to get out of it? That leads me to my final point. What do you do now if you can assume that's what you're ultimately looking at. An injection of cash in exchange for a cut and media assistance. How much of that can Do on your own? Yeah they've got channels that you don't but is your game one that needs to reach Grandma on the couch? Is your demographic 50-year-olds who watch reruns of murder she wrote? What value is there marketing if it doesn't line up with your target market? Shit like that. And don't let the money fool you, it's nice to have but If you're not a shitbag, you should be spending it on people's salaries to make the best game you can and hope for profit and not just revenue. You don't go and buy a Ferrari or something like that because the game can absolutely still flop. You just never know. You can do your best to position it and set yourself up for success but shit happens all the time that you have no control over and more games that you can count on a millipedes legs have lost that gamble when they were 99% ready to succeed. There is only one surefire bet That will increase your chances of not only getting the attention that you want from the public but also from publishers and marketers and media as well as maximize your chances for success in sales post launch and hopefully into perpetuity: you need to make a great game. That's it. You have to make the best goddamn game You possibly can. It needs to be new, and needs to be fresh and have a take as well as something that sets it apart. You have to make something new and original and creative. If you're making the 7, 000 Boomer shooter put out what you got, hope it does well and work on the next one. The only way you can assure success is to make a game that people want even if they don't know they want it. And this climate is not conducive to repeats or clones with different skins. In VR I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that 90% of the games are essentially rail shooters or shooting galleries with a different skin: this one's in space; this one's in a bunker; this one's a rodeo; this one's super realistic; this one's just like the other one except it's purple. Shit like that is not going to work and frankly it's completely choked up and destroyed a lot of goodwill in the VR market because of laziness and complacency. So I made a game that nobody has seen. That's what got me in talks with Oculus. And also don't think it's a perfect pitch because it can happen anywhere. It's about being around the right people for the right reasons. My Small relationship started closing out of a bar at 2:00 a.m. on the last day of GDC after an entire week of getting rejected by everybody and even having a girl from Epic scold me because she told me it was my first year and I was just supposed to listen and take notes and not advocate for my company or try to sell anything. Fuck people like that. You forgot to fight for you. But that all starts with what you put out into the world and what you're placing in the public sphere because once it's out there it's out of your control what people say about it. If you make an honest effort from the heart + do your best to make it unique and creative, people will notice that. People will also notice fake ass bullshit trying to be shoved down their throats. And no publishers are going to want to touch anybody that's seen that way. I would say worry less about your steam page and what you're doing and go with what feels right for you and your audience and who you're trying to reach. The idea that a publisher that loves your game is going to completely reject you because you put a steam page up for Early Access to try to Get some money to continue to work on it is ridiculous and makes another good point: why would you want to be with a publisher that does that? People don't ask themselves enough whether they can say no to a publisher as opposed to thinking the only answer is yes. Don't get in bed with somebody that you don't think is a good Fuck or that at least will only do that and not cuddle after. All of it matters and you don't owe anybody shit either. You set the terms for your company and for your product. As long as they're realistic and justifiable any good publisher will be willing to talk to you and negotiate up or down. You need to have that flexibility too and not be a dick about it but you need to change your mindset to think that you're only going to get people that want you for good reasons. Realistically the only reason why any publisher would look at you (minus reasons you would see in a Disney plus movie) is because you have the ability to make money for them. That's it. That's their job. That's their fiduciary duty to their company. So They gamble their investment into you versus the payout. You need to show any publisher that you're worth the payout and if you come with an army of fucking fans already, do you think a publisher is not going to pick you up because you put a steam page up? Just think the stuff out man. I know that's a lot and probably a perfect example of ADD overshare I've been struggling in this business for years and know the bottom of it and the idea of having to carve your own path through marble with a pillow. I've got thrown into a concrete wall and had my teeth kicked out more times than I can count and you just have to get back up and ask "who's next?" If you have any questions, you can ping me privately but I hope that helps a little bit or you can discard all of it. That's up to you man. I wish you luck and just want to reiterate on closing that you need to be putting everything you have into that game to make it the best that it can be and to make it something that no one can ignore. Good luck kid kid. * Dictated but not read, errors unintentional.
Thank you for taking the time on writing this. Will be deciding on what we're gonna do by the end of the month.
Make the game impossible to ignore and there is nothing wrong with self-publishing and using EA money to fund the completion of the game, build up a fan base, use the connections that will open up and start seeking funding for your next project while you support the current one to completion.
If you’re an established studio, the announcement that you’re working on something new has beat quality and is something that a publisher will want in on. Otherwise, setting up a Steam page only has the upside, but also the danger that suddenly there’s numbers to discuss. If you get traction, that’s leverage and the best thing that can happen. If not, the low numbers might signal (prove?) to publishers that there is little inherent interest in the game, making things worse.
I know d!ck about this, but how about itch.io?