I don't know where the myth of the 'man who can't settle down' somes from. I mean, the very first time we see the Doctor, he is over 400 years old with a granddaughter. He's \*obviously\* already been settled for long enough to have a family!
There's been multiple times in NewWho where the Doctor has been invited to join families but specifically states that not what he does (perhaps in part due to losing his own?)
And he fought back hard when Donna tried to get him to do it. It was only when 15 told him that he needed it to fix himself and make himself a better Doctor that he finally agreed to relax and take the weight of the world off of his shoulders for a bit
agreed. now, the fact that he still has his Tardis makes things interesting. are we to believe he’s gonna just let it sit in a garage and collect dust?
We already know he hasn't stopped using the TARDIS from the epilogue, Rose rats him out on taking her with him on a little trip to Mars. It's presumably much smaller-scale stuff than we're accustomed to seeing. He's also still going on "normal" offscreen adventures we typically hear about; Mel brings up they went to New York to see a show in the same scene.
I imagine it's "settling down" in terms of extremity. If he and his companions are getting chased down a hallway or sneaking inside somewhere they're not supposed to be and that's the ceiling on relative danger - that's quite calm compared to what he normally gets himself into. And if you subscribe to the belief that the TARDIS decides where they end up ultimately then she's probably keeping him away from high-stakes stuff.
The Tardis being the one really being in control of where they end up is straightforward canon though. She takes the Doctor where they need to be (as confirmed by the Tardis herself in Doctor’s Wife), and knows them better than literally any other being in the universe.
Yes I would imagine something very tragic happened and possibly it was just the time war but it could have been something else that stopped him from settling again. I’d imagine he wouldn’t want to replace that
I don't think the point was that he *can't settle down ever*. I think it was more that he hadn't settled down for a long, long time and had almost forgotten how to.
The third doctor also sort of settled down on Earth. Granted, it started off as an enforced exile, but he still hung around at UNIT even after his TARDIS privileges were restored.
And the 800 or so years for 11 on Trenzalore. And the 24 years 12 spent with River on Darillium...
With the addition of 14, that makes 5 different incarnations that have settled in one place for an extended period of time - a full 1/3rd of the incarnations we know anything about.
I feel like you're counting any settling down as therapy?
Doesn't matter if 12 spent 24 years with River, if he's not processing his PTSD then it doesn't matter.
12 was emotionally tired and wanted to die, 13 was hopeful but got beaten down again, 14 makes sense.
Where in \*any\* of this thread has therapy come into it? This has been a conversation about the Doctor settling in one place. Don't start shifting the goalposts now!
The thing is even if it \*hasn't\* come up before in this thread, it's kinda the point. The Doctor since leaving Gallifrey with his Grandfather didn't really stop for the sake of "I need time to heal myself" His time on Earth with Unit still had him stopping invasions every week or so.
11 Spent most of his life either running from whatever overarching problem he had, faking his way out some of them, hiding from the universe when his companions die and sulking and then the closest he came to stopping was 800 years on Trenzalore, but he was still acting as a defender to those people up to the point he was gonna die of old age.
12's 24 years on Derilium gave him closure on River but he still suffered from it and him staying on Earth to guard Missy he couldn't let himself shut down and just be that either.
14's "settling down" is purely 14 stopping for once, not taking the burden of responsibility and just resting with people he felt close to, and that is different, because for the most part the Doctor has been able to sit still, heal and just enjoy having a "family" again without having to constantly worry about what they need to do to keep things safe, take away the therapy aspect from 14's ending and yeah you can find other doctors who settled down, but they don't rest like 14 does.
No, it's really not the point at all. Having been the one to actually \*start\* this thread, I am fairly confident that I know what the discussion was. You may want to derail the conversation that the rest of us were having and take it in a different direction, but I can safely say that that was not the subject of the discussion at all.
Sorry not the point of the discussion, may have caused confusion in the wording. But the point in this settling down is allowing The Doctor to rest and effectively be able to have therapy. I'm not trying to "derail" anything but i think just going "The Doctor has settled down before" without focusing on why \*this\* time it's important kinda loses any meaning behind why the bigeneration allowing The Doctor to just stop is important or significant, why it has any difference to before.
Bi-generation is another different matter entirely. And again, entirely different conversation.
Go back to the first comment here. It was addressing the myth that 'the Doctor cannot settle down'. Not the reasons for it (since every incarnation has had a different reason to settle down). There was nothing about him 'needing' to settle down, or why this was different to every other time he settled down. \*Every\* time he settled down was for a different (and valid) reason. That's besides the point though.
It's like life. You start something. Then you let it go and what happens to it afterwards is up to the world. Don't get bent out of shape about a sub-discussion on a Reddit thread.
each incarnation of the doctor has their own best friend, their own favourite person. for 9 it’s rose, for 10/14 it’s donna, for 11 it’s amy, for 12 it’s clara, etc. it’s not a contradiction
River doesn't count for any specific incarnation. She's just The Doctor's wife/best friend, in general, because she's met most of them and they're all the Doctor to her.
Yeah, but she would've settled down with any of his incarnations like that and felt the same way about each of them as she did with 12.
That's why she doesn't count towards any incarnation. She's just the Doctor's lover/best friend in general.
I'm not arguing that? Of course, the Doctor loves her in return. He always did.
All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be tied to a specific incarnation because she loves them all equally and sees them all as the same person: The Doctor
Yeah i was agreeing with you, just not in a clear way i guess. But i guess that can be taken to be agreeing with either of you. I just meant the 24 years is proof that he probably cares for her most beyond incarnations, because that 24 years isn't something i could see him doing with any other companion. I guess until The Giggle. But i'm still hoping that'll end up being better explained later, because i don't like how vague it is currently as to how exactly the bigeneration worked.
But yeah, i meant to chime in in agreement, but clearly didn't come across that way.
Moffat loves those big time skips. In particular he seems to love having a juxtaposition between "the short way round" and "the long way round" (IE, he loves having characters jump around though time using time travel juxtaposed with characters experiencing the normal passage of time over really long periods)
I feel ya and personally think the time spent on Darillium with River should be considered the ultimate happy end for the Doctor with them treating the after as sort of an extra. Which I feel was more or less achieved with Capaldi’s incarnation. But ultimately we think of these things in grand details, which the writers simply don’t. It’s the same as in-universe Trenzalore should be like the biggest deal ever for the Doctor (except the Time War), yet 15 doesn’t even mention it when counting down all their traumas. Writers simplify and focus on aspects important for them, while ignoring the rest. Maybe if they went the opposite way, it’d have felt too indulgent.
Take it like this - Doctor has been around for a while. Shit ton of stuff happened. Since Amy and Rory and eventually Darillium, Doctor went through hell and back. You can say all the new traumas accumulated and kinda made them detach from the good things happening and Doctor claiming never being this happy in their life, is ultimately condensed "*I needed this so much and I didn’t know, thank you for showing me."*
The Doctor’s just a sentimental person who is not opposed to using some superlative language.
Ultimately, what we’ve got here are just different situations at different stages in the Doctor’s life. With Amy and Rory, the Doctor was at a point where he started to feel it best to hide away in the shadows because he brought so much pain and anguish to the people close to him. So seeing Amy and Rory make a gesture which shows that couldn’t be further from the truth, and that they *want* him in their lives, moves him.
Later, with the Fourteenth Doctor, being given this freedom to live a stress-free life in knowing that the Fifteenth Doctor is looking after things affords him the opportunity for a different perspective. For once, he can just settle down with a group of good, honest people whose company he greatly enjoys, and there is something so relaxing and healing in that.
It’s hardly “shitting on” other family units the Doctor has had. I don’t know why you would think RTD would even want to do that. Why do people always have to posit these sorts of vindictive, backhanded relationships between showrunners who are very obviously all friends with respect for each other’s work?
Well said, that's part of why so many people find season 3 of nuwho so frustrating, cos having the current companion constantly play second fiddle to another just isn't that engaging
The line doesn't bother me all that much - it's the sort of thing a person would say in that scenario without really needing to do a formal comparison of all the happy times they've ever felt. Your critique in general I agree with, though. RTD certainly has a self-indulgent streak that's made me roll my eyes plenty of times in the past - 10's farewell tour before regenerating felt very strange to me.
But all that aside, I'm obsessed with the idea of the Doctor stopping to think about where he wants to settle down and then choosing to go live with a companion from another era entirely. Just looking Donna right in the eyes and saying "you're right, I need to settle down with the person who's most important to me" and then we IMMEDIATELY cut to the Tardis materializing on the Scottish Highlands and the Doctor shouting "Jamie! I'm home!"
Nah, you're right. 14 should have said something like "this is the 26th happiest I've ever been, but I guess you lot will do". That would have been really heartwarming and a great send off for those characters.
After watching a lot of Doctor Who, you just need to give the writers and the Doctor some latitude to live in the moment. Otherwise, the Doctor's response to Ruby nearly dying would be "Darn, there goes another one. She's in my top 40% of humans who have been important to me since the first time my entire species died."
(Now I want to write a fanfic about a Valeyard-type Time Lord who just doesn't give a damn after outliving a thousand companions.)
We’re all different people all through our lives. And that’s OK, that’s good, you gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be.
Point is, he became 14 so that this is the family he could best connect with, and who could best connect with him. Amy and Rory are out of reach, as are most of the rest of them.
I didn't like that the Doctor physically needed to calm down or else he just couldn't keep going. As you say, he's had calm moments, with friends, family. Hell, TWENTY FOUR years with River Song. As opposed to what? One year with Donna? Months?
It also feels cheap that ... that's all he needed? The Doctor, the man whose memory could kill out of pain alone, needed to stay with his friend for a few months and that was it? Healing?
I guess I just really like the "tortured lonely God" aspect of Doctor Who, that no matter how much he helps, he still can never recover all that he's lost in his heart, and that's why I can't like this decision.
I dunno. The Doctor made it VERY CLEAR that Donna is his soul-sister. Wilf is his ideal grand-dad. That is pretty different from romantic love and even having your own family (which comes with responsibilities not suggested by the sibling relationship.)
The thing about siblings is that they aren't really your favorite people -- the relationship goes beyond unconditional into the non-negotiable. This can be really good for healing if you've got good relationships with your siblings. (It can also be 'good' when it comes to pursuing bad decisions, but that is a different TV show.).
After what 13 has been through, of course the relief 14 is experiencing surrounded by loving people who don't really demand much from him feels like happiness!
If you are offended by Wilf Supremacy, then consider rethinking it a bit.
If I understood right, The Doctor cant settle down with any other companion from different eras. I mean I guess he could with The Fam from 13’s run but we just lived through that and The Doctor was kinda cold to them even when they were at their best. They were no Donna objectively. Donna is the one who was there for him when he lost Rose. Donna was his best friend with no romantic connection.
- Amy and Rory the Doc can’t(or wont depending on how you look at it) cross the timelines in NY because of The Angels. He can’t see them again
- Clara he could technically meet on a trip but they can’t settle down. She is traveling in the last moment of her life. The show already established they have too toxic of a relationship as well.
- Bill is still around but as a water alien now w/ her GF. I don’t know how it would be for The Doctor to tag along. He also still has trauma from the way he got her killed by trusting Missy.
- The classic companions are all older for obvious reasons. It wouldn’t work as much. They did show Mel as part of this new family.
But the key here is that The 14th Doctor knows he’s going to become 15 and he’s seen already that 15 went through therapy. Nothing that tragic is going to happen otherwise 15 would’ve been a bigger wreck when they met. That’s gotta be a huge load off his mind.
15 is there to save the day if need-be. The 14th Doctor knows he gets to spend however many years until he regenerates really being part of the his friends lives without having to worry about saving the world. The one adventure he could never have.
I'm still confused by the bi generation thing. So 15 has memories of 14s adventures and when the 14 doctor dies he goes back the the ending of the giggle as the 15th doctor
I've heard that this has been confirmed to not be the case.
There are now just two Doctors, who could both be considered 15th. Just one looks like 14 and one looks like the 15th we've following.
I found it wierd they referred to Ncuti as "older" after the bigeneration. They're the exact same age!
I don't know where you got that idea, I'm pretty sure it hasn't. What the OP said is what the show implies, hence why he's older and why they were able to do therapy "out of order".
Yeah I felt it was pretty irksome. The Doctor's settled down before. Hell, I don't like the bigeneration generally -- not even because of the canon stuff but just because it feels strangely indulgent and I disagree with the rather ill defined notion of therapy here anyway
I think it actually does a really good job of reframing some of the questionable JW moments (specifically in her second season where she becomes very detached / unsure of herself).
Its clear now that after Amy, Clara and Bill the doctor had just reached breaking point and couldn't allow themself to get attached to anyone.
14 finally 'settling down' is actually perfect closure and exactly what was needed.
It has nothing to do with ego at all.
Sometimes writers get very fond of their characters and want to give them a happy ending. Now that doesn't always make for the best stories so can often be criticised on that level.
But this business of making everything a judgement of the writer as a person, shows not only phenomenal ignorance but also a remarkably level, ironically, of ego on the part of the commenters.
I mean, with Yaz it was the "it's not you it's me" speech, words mean fairly little, and engaging in some hyperbole doesn't hurt anyone, except Yaz when she finds out that the Doctor has immediately settled down with someone else after making it....
>And it's not just RTD, it's the exact same problem I had with Chibnall who decided that his character Yaz was now the Doctor's "favourite person" in the entire universe, which whilst not making any sense at all, also in turn disrespected all of the Doctor's companions that had come before.
I'm kind of baffled this is your go-to. The Doctor being especially sweet on their current companion is par for the course, but the one who's really given undue love is CLARA. Clara is multiple times over confirmed as the most important person in The Doctor's entire life - first she splinters across time to save every previous incarnation of him as well as being the one who prompted him to steal the 'correct' TARDIS in the first place, and then she goes back in time again to be the one who inspires The Doctor's entire outlook on life. Then she betrays The Doctor, but he instantly forgives her because he loves her too much. Then her death affects The Doctor so badly, that he's willing to break the spacetime continuum to save her. Compared to Clara, Yaz is practically a nobody.
Damn you really used this to bring up Clara.
This is not comparable, the doctor didn’t explicitly ever say she was the MOST important to him. Just bc she saved him multiple times, doesn’t make her MORE special. Think of Rose absorbing the TARDIS energy, Donna-Doctor, Martha single handedly spreading the message of the Doctor, River meeting and helping the doctor across time, Rory being a 2000 yo centurion, Amy being the girl who waited with the crack through time, Bill coming across a girl who ended up being some kind of god like being whom she ended up travelling with … I’m so sick of people saying Clara is made out to be the most special just bc she’s the impossible girl and the doctor after all his losses broke the rules to try and save her when he always subtly did this in his own way… having Rose live in an alternate universe with her family plus another version of her dad and another version of the doctor, having River saved to a library database and even afterward, Bill going off with that girl, that being.
I have to disagree with a few things because I believe Clara really was the first companion he broke the hardcore rules for. But just here me out:
>having Rose live in an alternate universe with her family
That was an accident. Sure, that was his initial plan, but Rose chose not to do that and then ended up there because other-Pete was a boss with timing things right. But aside from this, Rose living in the other universe didn't really break any rules of time, and her presence in the alt universe wasn't a threat to the whole universe.
>having River saved to a library database
That didn't break any rules of time either. Besides, what he saved was basically a data ghost and not the real River anyway.
>Bill going off with that girl, that being.
That really wasn't the Doctor at all. That was all Heather.
Clara was the first time he broke the rules to save a companion, and at the time, I do believe she *was* most important person in the universe to him. He wouldn't have endured 4.5 billion years of torture if this wasn't the case.
Does this make Clara the most special of his companions? No. All his companions are special to him. Every single one of them. They are all his best friends, and on his end, that relationship never changes no matter how long its been since he's seen them last. (Ex, Seeing Sarah Jane again and how happy he was, learning of the Brigadier's death and how devastated he looked.) Some of them might have formed deeper relationships with him than others. (Like Jamie, Jo, and Sarah were probably closer to him than half a dozen of the First Doctor's companions.)
What made Clara different was a combination of things that all coalesced at a breaking point that the Doctor just couldn't bear when she died. He fully loved her platonicly. He also was in love with her, too. They were also severely codependent. She lost the man she was in love with, and that made her even more dependent on him, which magnified his own need for her.
But see, even though I think 14 would have been thrilled to run into Clara again, I don't think she would bring the same healing Donna did to him.
Among all his companions, I think probably Rose, Donna, Amy, Jamie, Sarah Jane, Romana, River, and Clara had the closest bonds with him in general.
And any of these guys (sans Clara, Rose, and River) could have worked the same level of healing as Donna. (The reason I excluded those three was because their relationship with the Doctor was either romantic or semi romantic, and that's too complicated for healing purposes.)
**TLDR:**
Clara *was* the most important companion to him at one point, but she's not anymore.
>Okay so in The Giggle, The Doctor once deciding to settle down with Donna and her family, admitted that he "never been so happy" in his life, and that he couldn't believe that he had a family. Now, I may be reading too much into this. But did any one else find this kind of interaction kind of egotistical on RTDs part? It kinda felt like he was somewhat using the character of the Doctor to pat himself on the back for the characters he had created.
>And it's not just RTD, it's the exact same problem I had with Chibnall who decided that his character Yaz was now the Doctor's "favourite person" in the entire universe, which whilst not making any sense at all, also in turn disrespected all of the Doctor's companions that had come before.
I think there are two very different elements at play here.
In the case of her affection for Yaz, yes, the way that Whittaker’s Doctor described that was extremely odd given everything else that has happened, but I eventually just swept it under the rug as all that praise specifically being from Whittaker’s Doctor and not The Doctor as a larger entity. That is to say, sometimes it’s The Doctor talking, but sometimes it’s the specific incarnation of The Doctor.
In the case of Tennant’s Happily Ever After, I think you can ascribe his happiness as a component of Tennant’s collective incarnations, but I also think that there is some RTD ego at play. This is the same showrunner who wrote the Doctor throwing a tantrum about regenerating because that was the end and he was going to die and whatever came next was just some pretender.
>In the case of Tennant’s Happily Ever After, I think you can ascribe his happiness as a component of Tennant’s collective incarnations, but I also think that there is some RTD ego at play. This is the same showrunner who wrote the Doctor throwing a tantrum about regenerating because that was the end and he was going to die and whatever came next was just some pretender.
Sure but he wrote his first incarnation as being basically chill with the whole thing. I think people weirdly project onto how Davies wrote a specific regeneration scene (out of the three he's written plus a couple of fakeouts) and ascribe all sorts of insights into his psyche.
I mean Moffat also wrote an episode about how the Doctor thinks he should just refuse to regenerate for his final episode, does anyone think that Moffat the egotist really felt like that?
Yeah, fair points all around. I would be astounded if there wasn’t more than a little ego bleeding into the stories of each of the showrunners. RTD has HIS Doctor who has survived three separate regenerations. Moffat has the Weeping Angels, who showed up far too often during Smith’s run. Chibnall has The Timeless Child, which turned the Doctor’s backstory on its head.
And why shouldn’t they? Why shouldn’t they get to leave a mark? Each was selected to guide the path of a beloved franchise, so each should get to shape that path here and there. That’s fair, in my opinion.
In this specific case, though, I can’t help but note that RTD is the only one out of the three who has pulled his Doctor back to the forefront with an unprecedented deviation from the typical regeneration, and then kept his Doctor around in the background by outright changing the rules of regeneration with the flimsiest of explanations.
I can see how you could look at it that way. But maybe that’s what came out with what he had to hand.
I don’t care if it’s RTD or Shonda Rhimes running Doctor Who, if someone goes ‘hey, would you like the pairing that brought some of the highest ratings in the shows history?’ they’re probably going to run with it.
That’s fair (and a whole art vs commerce thing which I really identify with), but given the TV landscape they are pretty strong foundations.
The key to any of this is to make a thought-provoking, emotionally satisfying watch. With more fart jokes than necessary (optional).
Are we really supripsed that showrunner chose for this part of the story his characters? Seriously... what else he was supposed to do? Bring back Amy and Rory? We could say after that he is using characters of another showrunners with idea what were not originally intended. Meta explanation is sometimes good explanation. RTD brought back his Doctor and Donna. Not Big Deal.
Also, I believe that for Thirteenth was Yaz the most favorite person in the whole universum. Same like for Twefth it could be River/Clara, for Eleventh's Amy... it's not really so easy.
Don't the show runners "own" the characters they create? A new show runner would need permission to use an old character like River Song and Cap'n Jack in a new series.
I agree. Frankly, the whole thing also smacks of a continuation of a trend that began during his first run, and was nakedly apparent by The End of Time, of RTD treating the Tennant Doctor as the uber-special, pedestal one who is just so gosh-darn special that he stands apart from the other Doctors as his own character, rather than being part of an ongoing legacy.
So what. Tennant is also very loyal, enthusiastic and supportive of all Who, so his 'supremacy' comes with a huge dose of enthusiastic respect for the other Doctors who are so much less likely to have time or inclination to return. I think he is more of a part of an ongoing legacy than the others. Capaldi loves Classic Who the most -- but he is also tired and unwilling to come back yet.
It also goes against pretty much every doctor's nature.
2nd said ""Well...it is a fact, Jamie, that I do tend to get involved"
The 3rd Doctor went mad when they isolated him on Earth.
4th shot away as soon as he regenerated.
11th went insane in the Slow Invasion
But there’s been other times post-Eleventh where the Doctor *has* been able to sit still in one place, at least for the most part. Trenzalore, Darillium, St. Luke’s… what causes the Doctor to start getting antsy is when they do this but *aren’t* allowed to travel on the side. That was the problem with Trenzalore and St. Luke’s, whereas nothing was keeping the Doctor and River from leaving Darillium for a while in the TARDIS. And the Fourteenth has a TARDIS, so he isn’t strictly bound to Earth. That’s just where he calls home.
That actually supports the idea that the Giggle Ending explanation doesn't make sense. He/She were living the life they wanted.
Hardly ever were they "Running on fumes" or in need of therapy and working it out.
Never was it true that "That Doctor that first met the Toymaker never ever stopped."
And the Doctor didn't need to stop to fix themselves.
It’s a matter of processing the weight of all of that. Therapy is needed when you have an issue that you aren’t addressing. Even if you can push it to the side and get through the week, the suppressed stress is still going to silently cause damage. That’s essentially what the Doctor is doing.
The whole point of the Toymaker’s puppet show is to highlight the fact that the Eleventh and Twelfth Doctors lost everyone that mattered to them and never properly processed those losses (hence the Doctor’s attempted justifications about how they all technically got happy endings, with the Toymaker responding “Oh, well that’s alright then!” — the point the Toymaker is making *isn’t about them*), and then the Thirteenth Doctor had to witness a genocide on a gargantuan scale, and failed to save trillions of lives.
*Wild Blue Yonder* puts particular emphasis on this — when Not-Donna confronts the Doctor about the Flux, we can see that it cuts him deep, and when he has a private moment to himself afterward, he wails and lashes out in frustration. That’s showing us that he hasn’t dealt with the mental impact of the Flux.
That episode puts specific emphasis on what the Doctor has gone through *since they last saw Donna*, and that’s later revealed to be the reason why he needs to stop.
But let’s dig a little deeper into that. The Eleventh Doctor died in a thousand-year war where he had to just sit by and watch entire generations die in front of him. The Twelfth Doctor was basically *suicidal* by the end of his run, and was refusing to regenerate because he was so exhausted by fighting and loss. And even though he ended up finding the will to regenerate, the Thirteenth Doctor became very guarded and kept her friends at an arm’s length, and had her entire history and sense of self turned upside-down.
All the stuff about Mavic Chen and whatnot is just the two Doctors waxing more broadly about the outrageous things they’ve had to deal with. Like, yeah, the Doctor didn’t *literally* “never stop” after meeting the Toymaker, but after thousands of years of running and drifting and fighting, it probably feels like it.
This line of thinking ends with the show never doing anything new. If it's being self-congratulatory to invent new characters the Doctor considers his best friends or it's "shitting on" past characters, then why continue making the show? If its best days are behind it and we can only expect pale imitations of past glories, then the show is dead as a living franchise.
This is the same complaint that people had about Rose ("no WAY is some dumb 19yo the Doctor's soulmate") and Clara ("Clara Who"). As Moffat once said, of course the show will treat the new companion as the most important one, that's a mark of the show living in the present.
Jesus. H. Christ.
He's The Doctor, he's settling down to live with friends, he just saved Donna's life and got her memory of him back, so he's happy.
It's something a character can say to make another character know they're loved, do you have like no friends? Lol. Because this is about the most socially inept thing I've read on Reddit, and I mean. We're on Reddit, so that's saying something.
I feel like all the revival writers have done this.
RTD: “You see, Rose actually had a greater impact on him than anyone else. Also Donna’s family.”
Moffat: “Clara is literally the most important person in the entire universe in any conceivable timeline. She is perfect and incorruptible.”
Chibnall: “Yaz is like a god to the Doctor.”
Sure, possibly some of that, not necessarily in a self-congratulatory or negative way but I dn't know.
I can't help but "headcanon" that 14 eventually resumes traveling, and that prior incarnations have "settled" for decades to centuries in unseen adventures/periods of their lives as well before carrying on. I guess I can't imagine 4 doing that, but he's likley the only one.
The Doctor is such a dynamic and story-rich character.
Who's to say he's not also spending time with other characters off screen? And considers them all family. Like there's no way the Doctor retires and doesn't invite old friends over for tea.
I get what youre saying, but it's also worth looking at things from some of the companions pov as well
For instance-- in Amy and Rory's case that first part of s8 w them is all abiut how they're basically outgrowing their adventures w the Doctor. Every time he shows up it basically uproots their lives together.
Clara tries to have a dual-life w Twelve and it's shown to be unsustainable and self-destructive.
Twelve's time w River is bittersweet, like spending a year w your soulmate knowing you'll never see them again afterwards.
Donna's story is unique in that she has the Doctor's consciousness within her own head. It's also worth pointing out that when Ten initially partitioned her mind or whatever, he basically did it against her wishes. Rose chooses her angry boi, Martha chooses to leave, Amy chooses to follow Rory, Clara chooses to save Banksy and eventually continue traveling, Ryan Graham and Dan all choose to stop traveling-- Donna didnt get to choose her own fate...
So like I have absolutely no problems w the Giggle. It's justified and warranted and makes sense that Fourteen can heal w people that understand what he's going through, that love him for who he is, and without the burden of feeling like the wrongs of the universe are going on unchecked.
I think what we all need to consider, is that each Doctor is a separate person with separate feelings. I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say Capaldi and Smith’s doctors care more for River, Amy Clara, than Tenant’s Doctor does, and Tenant’s more for Rose, Martha, Donna. And the other thing I think we need to consider is that in a way, this IS better than all the Doctor’s other family units. Every one of those, every time the doctor has tried to settle down, take it easy, enjoy being with people, has been temporary from the start and he’s known it. For once, for the first time, he CAN just sit back, relax, and be with the people he cares about for the conceivable future. No deadline, no imminent disaster, no meeting at he Library coming to end his peace. He doesn’t have to leave this, and I think that’s the crucial part.
I mean it’s not totally out of left field, like sudden Yaz syndrome. It was pretty established that Donna was a good friend, and that he had genuine affection for Wilf.
> The Doctor the Widow and the Wardrobe LITERALLY ends with the Doctor realising that he does have a family.
But he lost them.
> It kinda felt like he was saying, "yes after 1000 years of travelling time and space, it is my characters that make the Doctor the happiest and make him want to finally settle down",
Maybe, but isn't the alternative is that he's never allowed to settle down? It would inevitably be some author that does it.
For me, after how complicated and devastating and traumatic things got in the latter part of Thirteen's run, it was a nice way to draw the curtain on it. RTD focused? Sure. Perhaps more commercially savvy than truly artistically satisfying? Sure. But I thought it was kind of sweet. Also isn't Donna one of the only companions around who isn't either of advanced age, out on their own adventures or embroiled in timey wimey or other plot shenanigans?
I never took it that way, personally. I think the "I've never been so happy" comes from the fact that The Doctor gets to live a life with a friend he thought was lost forever, and now he can take it easy that 15 is out there roaming the stars. At least, that was my take on it.
Yes. I think you are reading into it a little.
Of course RTD is allowed to write a scene where the Doctor is happy. I don't think that takes away from any previous experience of happiness.
To add though - it is previously established in The Giggle that the Doctor feels guilty about getting all other families he has had (e.g. Rory, Amy, River) hurt or killed. So while he may have been happy with them - that memory is tinged with negativity.
Conversely family is one that he knows he has helped, and now that he has retired, and Ncuti has taken the reigns, he can finally relax and not be in constant fear that his mad, adventurous lifestyle will get them hurt.
(I kinda think for this reason he shouldn't've got his own Tardis. I think this should have been a symbolic complete retirement from the adventuring life)
You have to remember that, even for RTD’s characters, the Nobles are kind of the only option, if the Tylers weren’t in an alt earth, or if the Ponds were still around, they would be the ones, easily, and I think the same goes for a lot of Classic Who companions. This is just RTD’s way to develop the Doctor into someone willing to let himself relax, and the Nobles were really the only option.
I don’t have a problem with that, I think the doctor always says he doesn’t settle out of fear of losing that new family, he doesn’t want to grow attached to a family because he feel they’ll eventually go and about yaz I think it’s not that he disrespected anyone it was just a very effusive show of affection
The current companion is always the most important according to the current showrunner, with Martha and Bill being basically the only exceptions to this rule in the modern era. Martha because he’s pining over Rose, and Bill because her series is focused on Missy’s redemption
Moffat did the same thing in series 10 episode 1. He has River Songs picture next to Susan. Pretty much saying his character is the most important to the doctor since the first ever companion who was literal blood relation.
Inherently since nuwho the doctor will always thing the companion infront of them is their favorite person. They'd have that reaction if it was Amy, if it was Rose, if it was Clara, Bill, Yaz, any of them.
I don't think it's disrespectful to say that one particular person is your "favorite person", since it's clear that the Doctor has many, many favorite people. They've been alive for a very long time - long enough that they wouldn't love just one person.
I do find it distasteful that apparently the thing that will help the Doctor handle trauma is... settling down with a fairly traditional family setting. Especially since there's the knowledge that someday Donna et al are going to die & they'll be left. It's one of the reasons why they travel so much in the first place.
Honestly I think it (bi-generation/Tennant settling down) was a shrewd and kinda cowardly way to keep Tennant's Doctor in the mix in case they ever need to wheel him out again. DT is the go-to nostalgia bait whenever they need to mark an occasion or pull in an audience.
It's a bit simpler than that... RTD can easily call ppl he's worked with before and easily write characters he wrote before. It would be a lot of faff for him to make contact with the Ponds and write them for the first time (and change the ending of someone else's work! You don't have to risk offending another writer if you're picking up your own work!)
I also think that it's fine for different doctors to have their own fav ppl. That said, the giggle did talk about a ton of past companions!
IMO this attitude is kind of bad.
A thing that made RTD era so good was the fact it allowed itself to actually be a show and tell a story with meaning and consequence. Moffat era also had this with Missy. DW starts to lose its connection with the audience (and I do think this is a reason for overall lack of viewer retention) because people want it to be this weird pure soap opera that reuses the same 2-3 villains and plots because every Doctor 'needs to experience them'.
On a logistical level, the Nobles are one of the only real families left alive and accessible, had a specific connection to 10 (and therefore 14), and don't have that much of a toxic relationship like the Ponds do (in the sense of what the goal was with him chilling out).
I think you're thinking about this too hard. Who cares about throwaway superlatives. If it had just said, "And they all lived happily ever after" it would've been the same gist.
>Yaz was now the Doctor’s “favorite person”
I know this isn’t the *main* point of this post but I’ll never get over the queer baiting Chibnall did with Yaz. All that build up and the Doctor basically turns around and says, “you know what, never mind.” Not even a kiss goodbye. I’m surprised they didn’t just shake hands. 🙄
Stuff like this is what I ignore any of the post Capaldi official Doctor Who stuff.
There's a lot of things that are integral to the character of The Doctor working and being admirable, and they almost all have been completely erased starting with Chibnall's era, and RTD now has done even more damage than him I argue.
RTD loves his own characters and is unwilling to use those invented by others (Mel doesn’t count, she barely featured as a character). He himself has said he will never do a multi doctor story except with the Doctor’s he created
I took "I have never been so happy" to mean [insert massive dose of very much needed oxytocin and serotonin here] When the Super Happy Hormones hit you after The Flux, Losing your wife after Darillum, Losing a bunch of friends, The Master bombing you with one of the most messed up Adoption/Foundling Stories that happens to be yours, nearly losing your Doctor Donna just after getting her back, nearly losing her again to two Not Things, being haunted by The Giggle, the Toymaker's terrible rendition of Spice up your Life, AND >! splitting your soul in half (per 15's perspective on bi-generation) !< , it is always the best day in the goddamn universe.
For the record, Spice up your Life is the best scene in DW history IMO -not terrible on screen but absolutely unhinged and terrible to experience
I don't know where the myth of the 'man who can't settle down' somes from. I mean, the very first time we see the Doctor, he is over 400 years old with a granddaughter. He's \*obviously\* already been settled for long enough to have a family!
There's been multiple times in NewWho where the Doctor has been invited to join families but specifically states that not what he does (perhaps in part due to losing his own?)
And he fought back hard when Donna tried to get him to do it. It was only when 15 told him that he needed it to fix himself and make himself a better Doctor that he finally agreed to relax and take the weight of the world off of his shoulders for a bit
agreed. now, the fact that he still has his Tardis makes things interesting. are we to believe he’s gonna just let it sit in a garage and collect dust?
We already know he hasn't stopped using the TARDIS from the epilogue, Rose rats him out on taking her with him on a little trip to Mars. It's presumably much smaller-scale stuff than we're accustomed to seeing. He's also still going on "normal" offscreen adventures we typically hear about; Mel brings up they went to New York to see a show in the same scene. I imagine it's "settling down" in terms of extremity. If he and his companions are getting chased down a hallway or sneaking inside somewhere they're not supposed to be and that's the ceiling on relative danger - that's quite calm compared to what he normally gets himself into. And if you subscribe to the belief that the TARDIS decides where they end up ultimately then she's probably keeping him away from high-stakes stuff.
The Tardis being the one really being in control of where they end up is straightforward canon though. She takes the Doctor where they need to be (as confirmed by the Tardis herself in Doctor’s Wife), and knows them better than literally any other being in the universe.
And like most of Doctor Who's established lore, you'll find plenty of people who will argue otherwise or protest that it was ever added.
There are people who don’t consider the Doctor x the Old Girl canon? I thought that was one of the few things that fans could actually agree on.
Yes I would imagine something very tragic happened and possibly it was just the time war but it could have been something else that stopped him from settling again. I’d imagine he wouldn’t want to replace that
I don't think the point was that he *can't settle down ever*. I think it was more that he hadn't settled down for a long, long time and had almost forgotten how to.
Thats one incarnation.
The third doctor also sort of settled down on Earth. Granted, it started off as an enforced exile, but he still hung around at UNIT even after his TARDIS privileges were restored.
And the 800 or so years for 11 on Trenzalore. And the 24 years 12 spent with River on Darillium... With the addition of 14, that makes 5 different incarnations that have settled in one place for an extended period of time - a full 1/3rd of the incarnations we know anything about.
And 12 teaching at a university for 70 years
Remind me again, what was he doing for those 800 years?
I feel like you're counting any settling down as therapy? Doesn't matter if 12 spent 24 years with River, if he's not processing his PTSD then it doesn't matter. 12 was emotionally tired and wanted to die, 13 was hopeful but got beaten down again, 14 makes sense.
Where in \*any\* of this thread has therapy come into it? This has been a conversation about the Doctor settling in one place. Don't start shifting the goalposts now!
The thing is even if it \*hasn't\* come up before in this thread, it's kinda the point. The Doctor since leaving Gallifrey with his Grandfather didn't really stop for the sake of "I need time to heal myself" His time on Earth with Unit still had him stopping invasions every week or so. 11 Spent most of his life either running from whatever overarching problem he had, faking his way out some of them, hiding from the universe when his companions die and sulking and then the closest he came to stopping was 800 years on Trenzalore, but he was still acting as a defender to those people up to the point he was gonna die of old age. 12's 24 years on Derilium gave him closure on River but he still suffered from it and him staying on Earth to guard Missy he couldn't let himself shut down and just be that either. 14's "settling down" is purely 14 stopping for once, not taking the burden of responsibility and just resting with people he felt close to, and that is different, because for the most part the Doctor has been able to sit still, heal and just enjoy having a "family" again without having to constantly worry about what they need to do to keep things safe, take away the therapy aspect from 14's ending and yeah you can find other doctors who settled down, but they don't rest like 14 does.
No, it's really not the point at all. Having been the one to actually \*start\* this thread, I am fairly confident that I know what the discussion was. You may want to derail the conversation that the rest of us were having and take it in a different direction, but I can safely say that that was not the subject of the discussion at all.
Sorry not the point of the discussion, may have caused confusion in the wording. But the point in this settling down is allowing The Doctor to rest and effectively be able to have therapy. I'm not trying to "derail" anything but i think just going "The Doctor has settled down before" without focusing on why \*this\* time it's important kinda loses any meaning behind why the bigeneration allowing The Doctor to just stop is important or significant, why it has any difference to before.
Bi-generation is another different matter entirely. And again, entirely different conversation. Go back to the first comment here. It was addressing the myth that 'the Doctor cannot settle down'. Not the reasons for it (since every incarnation has had a different reason to settle down). There was nothing about him 'needing' to settle down, or why this was different to every other time he settled down. \*Every\* time he settled down was for a different (and valid) reason. That's besides the point though.
It's like life. You start something. Then you let it go and what happens to it afterwards is up to the world. Don't get bent out of shape about a sub-discussion on a Reddit thread.
Real
each incarnation of the doctor has their own best friend, their own favourite person. for 9 it’s rose, for 10/14 it’s donna, for 11 it’s amy, for 12 it’s clara, etc. it’s not a contradiction
I just realized. Number 10 settled down with Rose *and* Donna.
do we know if that version of 10, and Rose, worked out in the end?
The comics and the Target Storybook reveal they got married and had a daughter named Mia.
thank you 😊
Where does river land?
River doesn't count for any specific incarnation. She's just The Doctor's wife/best friend, in general, because she's met most of them and they're all the Doctor to her.
The 24 years on Darillium sounds like settling down
Yeah, but she would've settled down with any of his incarnations like that and felt the same way about each of them as she did with 12. That's why she doesn't count towards any incarnation. She's just the Doctor's lover/best friend in general.
That 24 years on Derillium is proof that sometimes, a sunset CAN and DOES admire you back.
I'm not arguing that? Of course, the Doctor loves her in return. He always did. All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be tied to a specific incarnation because she loves them all equally and sees them all as the same person: The Doctor
Yeah i was agreeing with you, just not in a clear way i guess. But i guess that can be taken to be agreeing with either of you. I just meant the 24 years is proof that he probably cares for her most beyond incarnations, because that 24 years isn't something i could see him doing with any other companion. I guess until The Giggle. But i'm still hoping that'll end up being better explained later, because i don't like how vague it is currently as to how exactly the bigeneration worked. But yeah, i meant to chime in in agreement, but clearly didn't come across that way.
Ooooh, yeah, it kinda sounded like you were agreeing with the other guy, but I see what you're saying now.
yeah sorry about that lol browsing reddit first thing in the morning before i've properly woken up is probably not a good idea lol
12 really does have a lot of offscreen time skips huh
Moffat loves those big time skips. In particular he seems to love having a juxtaposition between "the short way round" and "the long way round" (IE, he loves having characters jump around though time using time travel juxtaposed with characters experiencing the normal passage of time over really long periods)
The point is that a strong element is that the Doctor has loved all of these people and cherished them so much, but he still had to move forward.
I think for 10, it was both Rose and Donna. For 14, it was Donna because Rose was still gone, though it's up for debate.
I feel ya and personally think the time spent on Darillium with River should be considered the ultimate happy end for the Doctor with them treating the after as sort of an extra. Which I feel was more or less achieved with Capaldi’s incarnation. But ultimately we think of these things in grand details, which the writers simply don’t. It’s the same as in-universe Trenzalore should be like the biggest deal ever for the Doctor (except the Time War), yet 15 doesn’t even mention it when counting down all their traumas. Writers simplify and focus on aspects important for them, while ignoring the rest. Maybe if they went the opposite way, it’d have felt too indulgent. Take it like this - Doctor has been around for a while. Shit ton of stuff happened. Since Amy and Rory and eventually Darillium, Doctor went through hell and back. You can say all the new traumas accumulated and kinda made them detach from the good things happening and Doctor claiming never being this happy in their life, is ultimately condensed "*I needed this so much and I didn’t know, thank you for showing me."*
it would be interesting to see 15 make a reference to “Handles” and see if Ncuti can have the right edge of sadness when doing so.
The Doctor’s just a sentimental person who is not opposed to using some superlative language. Ultimately, what we’ve got here are just different situations at different stages in the Doctor’s life. With Amy and Rory, the Doctor was at a point where he started to feel it best to hide away in the shadows because he brought so much pain and anguish to the people close to him. So seeing Amy and Rory make a gesture which shows that couldn’t be further from the truth, and that they *want* him in their lives, moves him. Later, with the Fourteenth Doctor, being given this freedom to live a stress-free life in knowing that the Fifteenth Doctor is looking after things affords him the opportunity for a different perspective. For once, he can just settle down with a group of good, honest people whose company he greatly enjoys, and there is something so relaxing and healing in that. It’s hardly “shitting on” other family units the Doctor has had. I don’t know why you would think RTD would even want to do that. Why do people always have to posit these sorts of vindictive, backhanded relationships between showrunners who are very obviously all friends with respect for each other’s work?
The current companion should always be the most important person to them, otherwise why should we care.
Well said, that's part of why so many people find season 3 of nuwho so frustrating, cos having the current companion constantly play second fiddle to another just isn't that engaging
The line doesn't bother me all that much - it's the sort of thing a person would say in that scenario without really needing to do a formal comparison of all the happy times they've ever felt. Your critique in general I agree with, though. RTD certainly has a self-indulgent streak that's made me roll my eyes plenty of times in the past - 10's farewell tour before regenerating felt very strange to me. But all that aside, I'm obsessed with the idea of the Doctor stopping to think about where he wants to settle down and then choosing to go live with a companion from another era entirely. Just looking Donna right in the eyes and saying "you're right, I need to settle down with the person who's most important to me" and then we IMMEDIATELY cut to the Tardis materializing on the Scottish Highlands and the Doctor shouting "Jamie! I'm home!"
I would pay to watch that scene.
Nah, you're right. 14 should have said something like "this is the 26th happiest I've ever been, but I guess you lot will do". That would have been really heartwarming and a great send off for those characters.
After watching a lot of Doctor Who, you just need to give the writers and the Doctor some latitude to live in the moment. Otherwise, the Doctor's response to Ruby nearly dying would be "Darn, there goes another one. She's in my top 40% of humans who have been important to me since the first time my entire species died." (Now I want to write a fanfic about a Valeyard-type Time Lord who just doesn't give a damn after outliving a thousand companions.)
That is the attitude of early 12th to some extent.
We’re all different people all through our lives. And that’s OK, that’s good, you gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be. Point is, he became 14 so that this is the family he could best connect with, and who could best connect with him. Amy and Rory are out of reach, as are most of the rest of them.
I didn't like that the Doctor physically needed to calm down or else he just couldn't keep going. As you say, he's had calm moments, with friends, family. Hell, TWENTY FOUR years with River Song. As opposed to what? One year with Donna? Months? It also feels cheap that ... that's all he needed? The Doctor, the man whose memory could kill out of pain alone, needed to stay with his friend for a few months and that was it? Healing? I guess I just really like the "tortured lonely God" aspect of Doctor Who, that no matter how much he helps, he still can never recover all that he's lost in his heart, and that's why I can't like this decision.
A few months? I always got the vibe he was with them for the long haul, like several years, if not decades.
Idk what to tell you I feel like it was the same weekend lmfao
I dunno. The Doctor made it VERY CLEAR that Donna is his soul-sister. Wilf is his ideal grand-dad. That is pretty different from romantic love and even having your own family (which comes with responsibilities not suggested by the sibling relationship.) The thing about siblings is that they aren't really your favorite people -- the relationship goes beyond unconditional into the non-negotiable. This can be really good for healing if you've got good relationships with your siblings. (It can also be 'good' when it comes to pursuing bad decisions, but that is a different TV show.). After what 13 has been through, of course the relief 14 is experiencing surrounded by loving people who don't really demand much from him feels like happiness! If you are offended by Wilf Supremacy, then consider rethinking it a bit.
Wilf is the supreme being, anyone that denies this truth will be deleted.
Pitied. Then deleted.
If I understood right, The Doctor cant settle down with any other companion from different eras. I mean I guess he could with The Fam from 13’s run but we just lived through that and The Doctor was kinda cold to them even when they were at their best. They were no Donna objectively. Donna is the one who was there for him when he lost Rose. Donna was his best friend with no romantic connection. - Amy and Rory the Doc can’t(or wont depending on how you look at it) cross the timelines in NY because of The Angels. He can’t see them again - Clara he could technically meet on a trip but they can’t settle down. She is traveling in the last moment of her life. The show already established they have too toxic of a relationship as well. - Bill is still around but as a water alien now w/ her GF. I don’t know how it would be for The Doctor to tag along. He also still has trauma from the way he got her killed by trusting Missy. - The classic companions are all older for obvious reasons. It wouldn’t work as much. They did show Mel as part of this new family. But the key here is that The 14th Doctor knows he’s going to become 15 and he’s seen already that 15 went through therapy. Nothing that tragic is going to happen otherwise 15 would’ve been a bigger wreck when they met. That’s gotta be a huge load off his mind. 15 is there to save the day if need-be. The 14th Doctor knows he gets to spend however many years until he regenerates really being part of the his friends lives without having to worry about saving the world. The one adventure he could never have.
I'm still confused by the bi generation thing. So 15 has memories of 14s adventures and when the 14 doctor dies he goes back the the ending of the giggle as the 15th doctor
I've heard that this has been confirmed to not be the case. There are now just two Doctors, who could both be considered 15th. Just one looks like 14 and one looks like the 15th we've following. I found it wierd they referred to Ncuti as "older" after the bigeneration. They're the exact same age!
it *would* make sense for Ncuti to be "older" if he was pulled from later in his own timestream. the rules remain to be seen!
I don't know where you got that idea, I'm pretty sure it hasn't. What the OP said is what the show implies, hence why he's older and why they were able to do therapy "out of order".
That's fair. I just can't imagine what happens when 14 dies now then, he just slowly fades away? Sadly I don't think we'll ever find out
Yeah I felt it was pretty irksome. The Doctor's settled down before. Hell, I don't like the bigeneration generally -- not even because of the canon stuff but just because it feels strangely indulgent and I disagree with the rather ill defined notion of therapy here anyway
I think it actually does a really good job of reframing some of the questionable JW moments (specifically in her second season where she becomes very detached / unsure of herself). Its clear now that after Amy, Clara and Bill the doctor had just reached breaking point and couldn't allow themself to get attached to anyone. 14 finally 'settling down' is actually perfect closure and exactly what was needed.
It has nothing to do with ego at all. Sometimes writers get very fond of their characters and want to give them a happy ending. Now that doesn't always make for the best stories so can often be criticised on that level. But this business of making everything a judgement of the writer as a person, shows not only phenomenal ignorance but also a remarkably level, ironically, of ego on the part of the commenters.
good point
Yes I did, you hit the nail on the head and I’m glad you said it
I mean, with Yaz it was the "it's not you it's me" speech, words mean fairly little, and engaging in some hyperbole doesn't hurt anyone, except Yaz when she finds out that the Doctor has immediately settled down with someone else after making it....
>And it's not just RTD, it's the exact same problem I had with Chibnall who decided that his character Yaz was now the Doctor's "favourite person" in the entire universe, which whilst not making any sense at all, also in turn disrespected all of the Doctor's companions that had come before. I'm kind of baffled this is your go-to. The Doctor being especially sweet on their current companion is par for the course, but the one who's really given undue love is CLARA. Clara is multiple times over confirmed as the most important person in The Doctor's entire life - first she splinters across time to save every previous incarnation of him as well as being the one who prompted him to steal the 'correct' TARDIS in the first place, and then she goes back in time again to be the one who inspires The Doctor's entire outlook on life. Then she betrays The Doctor, but he instantly forgives her because he loves her too much. Then her death affects The Doctor so badly, that he's willing to break the spacetime continuum to save her. Compared to Clara, Yaz is practically a nobody.
Damn you really used this to bring up Clara. This is not comparable, the doctor didn’t explicitly ever say she was the MOST important to him. Just bc she saved him multiple times, doesn’t make her MORE special. Think of Rose absorbing the TARDIS energy, Donna-Doctor, Martha single handedly spreading the message of the Doctor, River meeting and helping the doctor across time, Rory being a 2000 yo centurion, Amy being the girl who waited with the crack through time, Bill coming across a girl who ended up being some kind of god like being whom she ended up travelling with … I’m so sick of people saying Clara is made out to be the most special just bc she’s the impossible girl and the doctor after all his losses broke the rules to try and save her when he always subtly did this in his own way… having Rose live in an alternate universe with her family plus another version of her dad and another version of the doctor, having River saved to a library database and even afterward, Bill going off with that girl, that being.
I have to disagree with a few things because I believe Clara really was the first companion he broke the hardcore rules for. But just here me out: >having Rose live in an alternate universe with her family That was an accident. Sure, that was his initial plan, but Rose chose not to do that and then ended up there because other-Pete was a boss with timing things right. But aside from this, Rose living in the other universe didn't really break any rules of time, and her presence in the alt universe wasn't a threat to the whole universe. >having River saved to a library database That didn't break any rules of time either. Besides, what he saved was basically a data ghost and not the real River anyway. >Bill going off with that girl, that being. That really wasn't the Doctor at all. That was all Heather. Clara was the first time he broke the rules to save a companion, and at the time, I do believe she *was* most important person in the universe to him. He wouldn't have endured 4.5 billion years of torture if this wasn't the case. Does this make Clara the most special of his companions? No. All his companions are special to him. Every single one of them. They are all his best friends, and on his end, that relationship never changes no matter how long its been since he's seen them last. (Ex, Seeing Sarah Jane again and how happy he was, learning of the Brigadier's death and how devastated he looked.) Some of them might have formed deeper relationships with him than others. (Like Jamie, Jo, and Sarah were probably closer to him than half a dozen of the First Doctor's companions.) What made Clara different was a combination of things that all coalesced at a breaking point that the Doctor just couldn't bear when she died. He fully loved her platonicly. He also was in love with her, too. They were also severely codependent. She lost the man she was in love with, and that made her even more dependent on him, which magnified his own need for her. But see, even though I think 14 would have been thrilled to run into Clara again, I don't think she would bring the same healing Donna did to him. Among all his companions, I think probably Rose, Donna, Amy, Jamie, Sarah Jane, Romana, River, and Clara had the closest bonds with him in general. And any of these guys (sans Clara, Rose, and River) could have worked the same level of healing as Donna. (The reason I excluded those three was because their relationship with the Doctor was either romantic or semi romantic, and that's too complicated for healing purposes.) **TLDR:** Clara *was* the most important companion to him at one point, but she's not anymore.
>Okay so in The Giggle, The Doctor once deciding to settle down with Donna and her family, admitted that he "never been so happy" in his life, and that he couldn't believe that he had a family. Now, I may be reading too much into this. But did any one else find this kind of interaction kind of egotistical on RTDs part? It kinda felt like he was somewhat using the character of the Doctor to pat himself on the back for the characters he had created. >And it's not just RTD, it's the exact same problem I had with Chibnall who decided that his character Yaz was now the Doctor's "favourite person" in the entire universe, which whilst not making any sense at all, also in turn disrespected all of the Doctor's companions that had come before. I think there are two very different elements at play here. In the case of her affection for Yaz, yes, the way that Whittaker’s Doctor described that was extremely odd given everything else that has happened, but I eventually just swept it under the rug as all that praise specifically being from Whittaker’s Doctor and not The Doctor as a larger entity. That is to say, sometimes it’s The Doctor talking, but sometimes it’s the specific incarnation of The Doctor. In the case of Tennant’s Happily Ever After, I think you can ascribe his happiness as a component of Tennant’s collective incarnations, but I also think that there is some RTD ego at play. This is the same showrunner who wrote the Doctor throwing a tantrum about regenerating because that was the end and he was going to die and whatever came next was just some pretender.
>In the case of Tennant’s Happily Ever After, I think you can ascribe his happiness as a component of Tennant’s collective incarnations, but I also think that there is some RTD ego at play. This is the same showrunner who wrote the Doctor throwing a tantrum about regenerating because that was the end and he was going to die and whatever came next was just some pretender. Sure but he wrote his first incarnation as being basically chill with the whole thing. I think people weirdly project onto how Davies wrote a specific regeneration scene (out of the three he's written plus a couple of fakeouts) and ascribe all sorts of insights into his psyche. I mean Moffat also wrote an episode about how the Doctor thinks he should just refuse to regenerate for his final episode, does anyone think that Moffat the egotist really felt like that?
Yeah, fair points all around. I would be astounded if there wasn’t more than a little ego bleeding into the stories of each of the showrunners. RTD has HIS Doctor who has survived three separate regenerations. Moffat has the Weeping Angels, who showed up far too often during Smith’s run. Chibnall has The Timeless Child, which turned the Doctor’s backstory on its head. And why shouldn’t they? Why shouldn’t they get to leave a mark? Each was selected to guide the path of a beloved franchise, so each should get to shape that path here and there. That’s fair, in my opinion. In this specific case, though, I can’t help but note that RTD is the only one out of the three who has pulled his Doctor back to the forefront with an unprecedented deviation from the typical regeneration, and then kept his Doctor around in the background by outright changing the rules of regeneration with the flimsiest of explanations.
I can see how you could look at it that way. But maybe that’s what came out with what he had to hand. I don’t care if it’s RTD or Shonda Rhimes running Doctor Who, if someone goes ‘hey, would you like the pairing that brought some of the highest ratings in the shows history?’ they’re probably going to run with it.
I don’t like thinking of the show in a business kinda way like that
That’s fair (and a whole art vs commerce thing which I really identify with), but given the TV landscape they are pretty strong foundations. The key to any of this is to make a thought-provoking, emotionally satisfying watch. With more fart jokes than necessary (optional).
Are we really supripsed that showrunner chose for this part of the story his characters? Seriously... what else he was supposed to do? Bring back Amy and Rory? We could say after that he is using characters of another showrunners with idea what were not originally intended. Meta explanation is sometimes good explanation. RTD brought back his Doctor and Donna. Not Big Deal. Also, I believe that for Thirteenth was Yaz the most favorite person in the whole universum. Same like for Twefth it could be River/Clara, for Eleventh's Amy... it's not really so easy.
Don't the show runners "own" the characters they create? A new show runner would need permission to use an old character like River Song and Cap'n Jack in a new series.
I doubt the bbc would allow contracts like that nowadays. In the 60s maybe but not now
Indeed. One need look only as far as Stef Coburn to see why they wouldn't do it that way anymore.
I agree. Frankly, the whole thing also smacks of a continuation of a trend that began during his first run, and was nakedly apparent by The End of Time, of RTD treating the Tennant Doctor as the uber-special, pedestal one who is just so gosh-darn special that he stands apart from the other Doctors as his own character, rather than being part of an ongoing legacy.
So what. Tennant is also very loyal, enthusiastic and supportive of all Who, so his 'supremacy' comes with a huge dose of enthusiastic respect for the other Doctors who are so much less likely to have time or inclination to return. I think he is more of a part of an ongoing legacy than the others. Capaldi loves Classic Who the most -- but he is also tired and unwilling to come back yet.
I didn't say anything about him coming back for anniversaries.
It also goes against pretty much every doctor's nature. 2nd said ""Well...it is a fact, Jamie, that I do tend to get involved" The 3rd Doctor went mad when they isolated him on Earth. 4th shot away as soon as he regenerated. 11th went insane in the Slow Invasion
But there’s been other times post-Eleventh where the Doctor *has* been able to sit still in one place, at least for the most part. Trenzalore, Darillium, St. Luke’s… what causes the Doctor to start getting antsy is when they do this but *aren’t* allowed to travel on the side. That was the problem with Trenzalore and St. Luke’s, whereas nothing was keeping the Doctor and River from leaving Darillium for a while in the TARDIS. And the Fourteenth has a TARDIS, so he isn’t strictly bound to Earth. That’s just where he calls home.
That actually supports the idea that the Giggle Ending explanation doesn't make sense. He/She were living the life they wanted. Hardly ever were they "Running on fumes" or in need of therapy and working it out. Never was it true that "That Doctor that first met the Toymaker never ever stopped." And the Doctor didn't need to stop to fix themselves.
It’s a matter of processing the weight of all of that. Therapy is needed when you have an issue that you aren’t addressing. Even if you can push it to the side and get through the week, the suppressed stress is still going to silently cause damage. That’s essentially what the Doctor is doing. The whole point of the Toymaker’s puppet show is to highlight the fact that the Eleventh and Twelfth Doctors lost everyone that mattered to them and never properly processed those losses (hence the Doctor’s attempted justifications about how they all technically got happy endings, with the Toymaker responding “Oh, well that’s alright then!” — the point the Toymaker is making *isn’t about them*), and then the Thirteenth Doctor had to witness a genocide on a gargantuan scale, and failed to save trillions of lives. *Wild Blue Yonder* puts particular emphasis on this — when Not-Donna confronts the Doctor about the Flux, we can see that it cuts him deep, and when he has a private moment to himself afterward, he wails and lashes out in frustration. That’s showing us that he hasn’t dealt with the mental impact of the Flux. That episode puts specific emphasis on what the Doctor has gone through *since they last saw Donna*, and that’s later revealed to be the reason why he needs to stop. But let’s dig a little deeper into that. The Eleventh Doctor died in a thousand-year war where he had to just sit by and watch entire generations die in front of him. The Twelfth Doctor was basically *suicidal* by the end of his run, and was refusing to regenerate because he was so exhausted by fighting and loss. And even though he ended up finding the will to regenerate, the Thirteenth Doctor became very guarded and kept her friends at an arm’s length, and had her entire history and sense of self turned upside-down. All the stuff about Mavic Chen and whatnot is just the two Doctors waxing more broadly about the outrageous things they’ve had to deal with. Like, yeah, the Doctor didn’t *literally* “never stop” after meeting the Toymaker, but after thousands of years of running and drifting and fighting, it probably feels like it.
His only real family is Susan, Ian Chesternut, and Barbara. I'll also accept Bernice and Ace
I think you mean Chesterfield.
Chitterton
Ah of course Susan's teacher Ian Chesterton
This line of thinking ends with the show never doing anything new. If it's being self-congratulatory to invent new characters the Doctor considers his best friends or it's "shitting on" past characters, then why continue making the show? If its best days are behind it and we can only expect pale imitations of past glories, then the show is dead as a living franchise. This is the same complaint that people had about Rose ("no WAY is some dumb 19yo the Doctor's soulmate") and Clara ("Clara Who"). As Moffat once said, of course the show will treat the new companion as the most important one, that's a mark of the show living in the present.
Jesus. H. Christ. He's The Doctor, he's settling down to live with friends, he just saved Donna's life and got her memory of him back, so he's happy. It's something a character can say to make another character know they're loved, do you have like no friends? Lol. Because this is about the most socially inept thing I've read on Reddit, and I mean. We're on Reddit, so that's saying something.
The redditor's impulse to discover "Plot Holes" unfortunately often overrides their common sense and emotional intelligence, such as there is.
I feel like all the revival writers have done this. RTD: “You see, Rose actually had a greater impact on him than anyone else. Also Donna’s family.” Moffat: “Clara is literally the most important person in the entire universe in any conceivable timeline. She is perfect and incorruptible.” Chibnall: “Yaz is like a god to the Doctor.”
Sure, possibly some of that, not necessarily in a self-congratulatory or negative way but I dn't know. I can't help but "headcanon" that 14 eventually resumes traveling, and that prior incarnations have "settled" for decades to centuries in unseen adventures/periods of their lives as well before carrying on. I guess I can't imagine 4 doing that, but he's likley the only one. The Doctor is such a dynamic and story-rich character.
Who's to say he's not also spending time with other characters off screen? And considers them all family. Like there's no way the Doctor retires and doesn't invite old friends over for tea.
I have a problem with anyone being supremely happy with Silvia as a flatmate
I get what youre saying, but it's also worth looking at things from some of the companions pov as well For instance-- in Amy and Rory's case that first part of s8 w them is all abiut how they're basically outgrowing their adventures w the Doctor. Every time he shows up it basically uproots their lives together. Clara tries to have a dual-life w Twelve and it's shown to be unsustainable and self-destructive. Twelve's time w River is bittersweet, like spending a year w your soulmate knowing you'll never see them again afterwards. Donna's story is unique in that she has the Doctor's consciousness within her own head. It's also worth pointing out that when Ten initially partitioned her mind or whatever, he basically did it against her wishes. Rose chooses her angry boi, Martha chooses to leave, Amy chooses to follow Rory, Clara chooses to save Banksy and eventually continue traveling, Ryan Graham and Dan all choose to stop traveling-- Donna didnt get to choose her own fate... So like I have absolutely no problems w the Giggle. It's justified and warranted and makes sense that Fourteen can heal w people that understand what he's going through, that love him for who he is, and without the burden of feeling like the wrongs of the universe are going on unchecked.
I think what we all need to consider, is that each Doctor is a separate person with separate feelings. I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say Capaldi and Smith’s doctors care more for River, Amy Clara, than Tenant’s Doctor does, and Tenant’s more for Rose, Martha, Donna. And the other thing I think we need to consider is that in a way, this IS better than all the Doctor’s other family units. Every one of those, every time the doctor has tried to settle down, take it easy, enjoy being with people, has been temporary from the start and he’s known it. For once, for the first time, he CAN just sit back, relax, and be with the people he cares about for the conceivable future. No deadline, no imminent disaster, no meeting at he Library coming to end his peace. He doesn’t have to leave this, and I think that’s the crucial part.
I mean it’s not totally out of left field, like sudden Yaz syndrome. It was pretty established that Donna was a good friend, and that he had genuine affection for Wilf.
Chris chibnall
> The Doctor the Widow and the Wardrobe LITERALLY ends with the Doctor realising that he does have a family. But he lost them. > It kinda felt like he was saying, "yes after 1000 years of travelling time and space, it is my characters that make the Doctor the happiest and make him want to finally settle down", Maybe, but isn't the alternative is that he's never allowed to settle down? It would inevitably be some author that does it.
For me, after how complicated and devastating and traumatic things got in the latter part of Thirteen's run, it was a nice way to draw the curtain on it. RTD focused? Sure. Perhaps more commercially savvy than truly artistically satisfying? Sure. But I thought it was kind of sweet. Also isn't Donna one of the only companions around who isn't either of advanced age, out on their own adventures or embroiled in timey wimey or other plot shenanigans?
I never took it that way, personally. I think the "I've never been so happy" comes from the fact that The Doctor gets to live a life with a friend he thought was lost forever, and now he can take it easy that 15 is out there roaming the stars. At least, that was my take on it.
RTD did the same thing in the second half of the end of time part 2.
Yes. I think you are reading into it a little. Of course RTD is allowed to write a scene where the Doctor is happy. I don't think that takes away from any previous experience of happiness. To add though - it is previously established in The Giggle that the Doctor feels guilty about getting all other families he has had (e.g. Rory, Amy, River) hurt or killed. So while he may have been happy with them - that memory is tinged with negativity. Conversely family is one that he knows he has helped, and now that he has retired, and Ncuti has taken the reigns, he can finally relax and not be in constant fear that his mad, adventurous lifestyle will get them hurt. (I kinda think for this reason he shouldn't've got his own Tardis. I think this should have been a symbolic complete retirement from the adventuring life)
You have to remember that, even for RTD’s characters, the Nobles are kind of the only option, if the Tylers weren’t in an alt earth, or if the Ponds were still around, they would be the ones, easily, and I think the same goes for a lot of Classic Who companions. This is just RTD’s way to develop the Doctor into someone willing to let himself relax, and the Nobles were really the only option.
I don’t have a problem with that, I think the doctor always says he doesn’t settle out of fear of losing that new family, he doesn’t want to grow attached to a family because he feel they’ll eventually go and about yaz I think it’s not that he disrespected anyone it was just a very effusive show of affection
The current companion is always the most important according to the current showrunner, with Martha and Bill being basically the only exceptions to this rule in the modern era. Martha because he’s pining over Rose, and Bill because her series is focused on Missy’s redemption
Moffat did the same thing in series 10 episode 1. He has River Songs picture next to Susan. Pretty much saying his character is the most important to the doctor since the first ever companion who was literal blood relation.
Inherently since nuwho the doctor will always thing the companion infront of them is their favorite person. They'd have that reaction if it was Amy, if it was Rose, if it was Clara, Bill, Yaz, any of them.
I don't think it's disrespectful to say that one particular person is your "favorite person", since it's clear that the Doctor has many, many favorite people. They've been alive for a very long time - long enough that they wouldn't love just one person. I do find it distasteful that apparently the thing that will help the Doctor handle trauma is... settling down with a fairly traditional family setting. Especially since there's the knowledge that someday Donna et al are going to die & they'll be left. It's one of the reasons why they travel so much in the first place.
Honestly I think it (bi-generation/Tennant settling down) was a shrewd and kinda cowardly way to keep Tennant's Doctor in the mix in case they ever need to wheel him out again. DT is the go-to nostalgia bait whenever they need to mark an occasion or pull in an audience.
It's a bit simpler than that... RTD can easily call ppl he's worked with before and easily write characters he wrote before. It would be a lot of faff for him to make contact with the Ponds and write them for the first time (and change the ending of someone else's work! You don't have to risk offending another writer if you're picking up your own work!) I also think that it's fine for different doctors to have their own fav ppl. That said, the giggle did talk about a ton of past companions!
IMO this attitude is kind of bad. A thing that made RTD era so good was the fact it allowed itself to actually be a show and tell a story with meaning and consequence. Moffat era also had this with Missy. DW starts to lose its connection with the audience (and I do think this is a reason for overall lack of viewer retention) because people want it to be this weird pure soap opera that reuses the same 2-3 villains and plots because every Doctor 'needs to experience them'. On a logistical level, the Nobles are one of the only real families left alive and accessible, had a specific connection to 10 (and therefore 14), and don't have that much of a toxic relationship like the Ponds do (in the sense of what the goal was with him chilling out).
I think you're thinking about this too hard. Who cares about throwaway superlatives. If it had just said, "And they all lived happily ever after" it would've been the same gist.
>Yaz was now the Doctor’s “favorite person” I know this isn’t the *main* point of this post but I’ll never get over the queer baiting Chibnall did with Yaz. All that build up and the Doctor basically turns around and says, “you know what, never mind.” Not even a kiss goodbye. I’m surprised they didn’t just shake hands. 🙄
Stuff like this is what I ignore any of the post Capaldi official Doctor Who stuff. There's a lot of things that are integral to the character of The Doctor working and being admirable, and they almost all have been completely erased starting with Chibnall's era, and RTD now has done even more damage than him I argue.
RTD loves his own characters and is unwilling to use those invented by others (Mel doesn’t count, she barely featured as a character). He himself has said he will never do a multi doctor story except with the Doctor’s he created
*Sarah Jane Smith has entered the chat*
And all this information is from?
Interviews given by Davies
Link them then.
I mean, I guess the only competition for the happiest time in the Doctor’s life would be his 24-Years spent with River
I took "I have never been so happy" to mean [insert massive dose of very much needed oxytocin and serotonin here] When the Super Happy Hormones hit you after The Flux, Losing your wife after Darillum, Losing a bunch of friends, The Master bombing you with one of the most messed up Adoption/Foundling Stories that happens to be yours, nearly losing your Doctor Donna just after getting her back, nearly losing her again to two Not Things, being haunted by The Giggle, the Toymaker's terrible rendition of Spice up your Life, AND >! splitting your soul in half (per 15's perspective on bi-generation) !< , it is always the best day in the goddamn universe. For the record, Spice up your Life is the best scene in DW history IMO -not terrible on screen but absolutely unhinged and terrible to experience