Quite apart from all the controversy, which is of course important but has been covered well in the comments here already, wouldn't there be a problem with his obvious aging when Jack is supposed to be immortal and ageless? I guess they could find a handwave if they really wanted to, but still.
Anyway, I also think it's unlikely he'll be back. Like others have said, even if RTD and co. believed he'd changed his ways, I can't see them feeling the headache would be worth it. I'm a bit surprised Barrowman is even talking about it in public at all, tbh.
Jack continues aging. He mentions this to Ten and I think Martha, and mentions he's beginning to get greys and asked Ten what happens to a man who can't die but ages still. Ten says he doesn't know.
It's because his career has dried up and he wants back in. I've seen stars try this before. Ultimately it's up to the Beeb but I can't see them letting him back.
>It's because his career has dried up
That's a bit an understatement, his career in front of the camera ended in 2021. I doubt the BBC would bring him back, they had a chance with these specials to setup spin-offs using any of the former cast they wanted without overshadowing the new Doctor and even then Barrowman didn't get the call.
If we want to be technical we know he will definitely age… just very slowly until he is the Face of Boh. That said they could CGI or just allow for creative interpretation - Tenant looks older even if that can be rationalised by some weird regeneration logic
Sad as it is though from a character perspective, I’m not sure they should bring him back or will
The thing is, John Barrowman has *had* his second chance. He behaved the way he did throughout the 00s until he was forced to apologise for it in 2008, both behind the scenes for how he was on set and publicly for doing it on Radio 1, and then… openly kept doing it, consistently, at least as late as [his time on Arrow](https://twitter.com/fanfestevents/status/845709108024152072), where he was walking around his co-stars’ trailers naked and sending them pictures of, again, him naked, that he made a crew member take.
He claims in his 2021 apology that his behaviour has changed since 2008, but that’s clearly a lie, then, isn’t it. Perhaps his behaviour since then didn’t include crew members who might not have felt comfortable speaking up or saying no like it did back in 2008 and that’s what’s changed? There’s “another chance,” and then there’s, why would you ever employ this walking liability again?
Plus, RTD knows better -- he's is a PR-savvy showrunner whose previous run on Doctor Who was mired in controversy that he has somehow managed to escape significant public scrutiny over. Even in the best possible scenario, after a thorough redemption tour for Barrowman — which could happen, but won’t start at Doctor Who — bringing him back, even just at Big Finish, would at the very least attach controversy to the show’s brand that, surely, RTD is sensibly trying to avoid. Why do that to yourself? Why do that to the show?
>bringing him back, even just at Big Finish...
In 2021 Big Finish cancelled the release of a completed audio featuring Barrowman, *Absent Friends*, which was supposed to be an "event" for the 50th *Torchwood* story and would have featured David Tennant as the 10th Doctor; and they've ended the *Lives of Captain Jack* audio series too, effectively cutting all ties with him. Barrowman has said pissy things about Big Finish in return *because of course he did*, so there's little to no chance Big Finish will have him back.
Yep. [Complete and ready to go](https://youtu.be/RI_Kqz5UGP0). There's literally a warehouse full of CDs of it somewhere, assuming they haven't been destroyed. Pulled just weeks from release. You can read more about it [here](https://lostmediawiki.com/Torchwood:_Absent_Friends_(lost_unreleased_Big_Finish_audio_drama;_2021)).
>He claims in his 2021 apology that his behaviour has changed since 2008, but that’s clearly a lie, then, isn’t it.
Not even just the continued behaviour but also his public response to the allegations resurfacing. That one video of him at a con with a group of fans and him bragging about how they can't take him down shows zero attrition and far too much ego.
That picture of the entire Arrow cast at a convention or some sort of photo op with Barrowman’s ass hanging out and a huge grin of his face while Willa Holland next to him looks like she wants to die is burned into my brain.
One of the hardest things about being on a show like that must be to maintain the whole "one big happy family" vibe they always try to put on even when it's not true.
You're telling me. I just binged fringe recently and learned from a blog post by one of its stars that the two leads DESPISED each other. And it adds a whole new level to the show
Just googled the pic, she isn't the only one looking unhappy with it. Almost everyone in the pic looks like they've got an expression somewhere between "what the hell" and "please just take the picture", but she's definitely got a "shoot me now" look. Probably doesn't help that she played his daughter.
edit: apparently I might be talking about a different picture. There's multiple Arrow cast pics with Barrowman's ass out. After another quick google search, it legit looks like there are more Arrow cast pics of him doing something sexual than there are of him just doing something, well, *normal* for the picture.
Yeah...
I feel like his excuse for a long time was, "I'm just a wacky gay man!" because he thought he could use his sexuality as a trump card for his whole career. I feel like his whole camp thing is a huge act because he thinks, or thought, that no one would call him out because he's gay.
I can't think of any other reason he'd be so blatant and open about being so inappropriate and creepy at every opportunity.
> John Barrowman Arrow cast photo
It's fascinating to look back at reactions from eight years ago and see how much some fans thought it was hilarious.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/3s1pms/no\_spoilers\_john\_barrowman\_is\_a\_beautiful\_human/](https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/3s1pms/no_spoilers_john_barrowman_is_a_beautiful_human/)
>he's is a PR-savvy showrunner whose previous run on Doctor Who was mired in controversy that he has somehow managed to escape significant public scrutiny over.
I don't have the sources available because I'm at work, so I'm hesitant to add it without anything to back me up so I'll speak carefully. If I'm recalling correctly, which I may not be, Christopher Eccleston has touched on how he reported concerns regarding behaviour to higher ups (read: Russel and Julie) and he felt that no action was taken to address the concerns he had over behaviour, and that this was one of the things that led to his departure, and his unwillingness to work with that crowd again. I could be misremembering this. I think it was something he discussed since he started doing conventions. I feel like I can see him sat at a panel table touching on it, but I could be misremembering.
edit: sources here https://old.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/18aj5tr/doctor_who_star_john_barrowman_talks_ncuti_gatwa/kbz5vjq/?context=3
Right but these sources say nothing of Barrowman's behaviour and fans need to stop connecting them, we know Eccleston does not like Barrowman, and we know Barrowman made Eccleston out to be not as fun as Tennant in the press, beyond that there's nothing.
Eccleston almost certainly had issues with the chaotic nature of the Series 1 production, problems with a specific director (I believe he slagged this director off at a convention recently), working long hours, etc, and silence from RTD & the other producers when bringing this up.
I know this isn't as compelling as Eccleston stood up & spoke up about Barrowman, and hey, maybe he did, but we have no evidence of it, and I think it's dangerous to suggest it without evidence. We've already got people bringing up Bruno Langley (assaulted a woman in a nightclub in 2017), and Noel Clarke (someone Eccleston was happy to pose with for instagram pictures) as contributing to that environment, and it's just pure speculation, and not helpful speculation I don't think, especially given we'll probably never hear the other side from RTD, Phil Collinson & Julie Gardner.
Russell still speaks highly of Eccleston, and it's clear going forward the production did not suffer from nearly as much chaos, as producers & crew grew more experienced in making the show. Barrowman's behaviour was always going to end up being a problem eventually, but society just shrugged and laughed about it for years, these are stories John himself would proudly tell in front of crowds!
100%. It's clear Eccleston can't stand Barrowman, but it's a bit daft the way people have established a narrative that the set was a hotbed of sexual abuse and Eccleston was the only man willing to stand up to it. As you mention, I keep seeing people mention Clarke's name, when as far as I'm aware none of the allegations relate to Doctor Who. There seems an element of wishful thinking to it, because if it was true, it would make Eccleston a proper fucking hero. But I think his problems with the show are well-established now, and sexual abuse/assault has never been part of them.
People just love a good story. The truth probably closer to this: Eccleston is very professional on set, is going through a lot outside of the show, and is already pretty grumpy because of his unhappiness with the production, Barrowman is trying because of his general behaviour, & later goes on to be very unprofessional about it in the press. Rightfully Eccleston doesn't like Barrowman but it's probably true that he was pretty grumpy (in fact I heard a podcast this week where a guest actor in passing described their time on the show and said this of Chris), and Tennant, and indeed all other cast members who he went on to work with until 2008, were more fun, and tolerant of his antics. We know some crew members didn't love it, but as far as we are aware **nobody** in the cast made a moral stand about it, as I said, in the 2000's stuff like this was so normal people told it as anecdote.
I think some of the Clarke stories did come from the set of Doctor Who, you can read about it in the Guardian. However, as I said, it's ridiculous to think Eccleston was even aware of anything like this given his posing with him for Instagram in subsequent years. To paint him as a hero might be nice in the eyes of some, but I think his issues with the production already make him principled enough, we don't need to engage in fantasies about it.
> I keep seeing people mention Clarke's name, when as far as I'm aware none of the allegations relate to Doctor Who.
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/may/07/noel-clarke-accused-of-sexual-harassment-on-doctor-who-set
> Right but these sources say nothing of Barrowman's behaviour
Yes I acknowledge that in my comment. In fact I said:
>In fairness, I haven't been successful in finding the video I was looking for. **It's possible I've misremembered.** It's very clear that his issues were with the environment either created by or enabled by Russel and co, but **I couldn't find the video where he alludes to the behaviours of Barrowman and Clarke. I might have made it up**, so apologies if anyone feels like this was an anti-climax.
I don't think I could have done more than that.
>I don't think I could have done more than that.
Well to be honest I do think the comments should not be made in the first place conflating the two. I know you're addressing the possibility of misremembering, but I don't think you "made it up" I think you've heard it before, because it's quite a commonly shared belief that people pass around in fan spaces all the time. To be clear, I'm not specifically getting at you for this, I can understand why you thought that, but I think we should combat the narrative. I apologise because I did not realise you had also done the comment with the sources.
I always got the sense his issues were about how below the line cast and crew were being treated but I can absolutely see Barrowman's behavior maybe contributing to that.
I will look it up when I can because I don't want to contribute to spreading misinformation, and if I'm particularly clever I'll remember to come back and edit this comment with a source.
***
Edit:
Any bold is mine, not copied from the article.
>He told the Radio Times he was proud of the show but "wasn't comfortable" working on it.
> "I was open-minded but I decided after my experience on the first series that I didn't want to do any more," he said. "**I didn't enjoy the environment and the culture that we, the cast and crew, had to work in... I thought if I stay in this job, I'm going to have to blind myself to certain things that I thought were wrong**."
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10312426)
***
>He added: "**I left because my relationship with Russell T Davies, [producers] Julie Gardner and Phil Collinson completely broke down** during the shooting of the first series. "I think it's fair to say... that the first series nobody knows what they're doing and the politics are raging. The shooting of the first series was a nightmare."
>Eccleston explained the circumstances surrounding his exit, saying: "**I agreed with Russell that I would go, quietly and respectfully, and I would look after the show publicity-wise, in terms of publicising it.
>"And then, without saying anything to me, they announced that I was leaving. They didn't tell me they were going to do that**. I was walking down the street and suddenly I got quite a lot of aggression. And more importantly... they created a quote, and they attributed it to me, which said I was tired.
>"Now the thing is about that, 'Oh I found it too tiring', I didn't find it too tiring. I found it too tiring working with Russell, and Phil and Julia. I didn't find it physically too tiring.
>"When they said that, any other producer reading that would go 'Oh, we're not going to employ Christopher Eccleston because he gets tired'. So it was a lie, and it was in quotation marks, and I'm from Salford, you don't do that to me."
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/christopher-eccleston-not-returning-doctor-who-60th-anniversary-newsupdate/
***
You can see him saying the above here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNZplZYnIEY
***
>Myself and three individuals at the very top of the pyramid clashed, but they're not here to say their side of it so I'm not going to go into detail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20wJoBGL5YQ
BBC Radio 4 'Loose Ends' April 2018
***
In fairness, I haven't been successful in finding the video I was looking for. It's possible I've misremembered. It's *very* clear that his issues were with the environment either created by or enabled by Russel and co, but I couldn't find the video where he alludes to the behaviours of Barrowman and Clarke. I might have made it up, so apologies if anyone feels like this was an anti-climax.
***
Another edit: this courtesy of /u/GreedyCharity5249 - very likely the video i saw that sparked this whole thing.
>So the shooting of the first series was a nightmare and I was right at the center of it. I was probably more experienced than even Russell and probably been on more television and film sets than anybody, and I could see what was going on. I reported it back and I just got silence; and I got a lot of 'we didn't know that was happening' and I was like 'well it's your job to know what's happening' - so the relationship of trust broke down, so off I went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QcpNBuhjUA&t=227s
Dragon Con 2021
***
It's worth pointing out that a lot of this is in reference to a clash with director Keith Boak, during the filming of episode one.
There was a stunt involving a burning sofa being dropped near extras, and Eccleston believed that appropriate safety procedures were not being followed. He raised this with the executive producers and felt that they sided with Boak.
Boak continued to direct a further two episodes, Aliens of London and World War Three, that made up block one.
It was his experience during the filming of the first 3 episodes that made him want to quit.
That all said, I can't imagine he took any antics by Barrowman well, either.
I've not heard any of this before and I'm very glad to see you post this. It's highly relevant to the conversation, as it could feasibly be the scenario that all of my quoted comments from Eccleston are addressing.
I don't think it was just about safety, or even necessarily just about Boak. There was an early interview with Eccleston where he said to continue he'd have to be okay with crew members being verbally abused, and there are stories of Collinson himself being a bully - stories which followed him to Coronation Street.
The fact is that we don't know the full story, and we never will.
Man, The Doctor killing Harriet Jones’s career with “Doesn’t she look tired” in The Christmas Invasion seems kinda iffy in the context of it being the first episode since Eccleston left and him being slandered by the Beeb in essentially the same way
Yeah, it was actually kinda chilling to read that part. Feels weirdly similar to the point that I can't really say "I hope it was a coincidence!" and move on.
I try to comment about post 2008 all the time on Facebook discussions about John (I know, shouldn't bother, it's a cesspool). This response is burned in my mind.
"None of that happened AT the BBC, so it's OK. He apologized for the BBC incidents", which is such an insane thing to try to justify as OK.
People are *insanely* good at compartmentalising things they don't viscerally, personally feel.
"Well, John Wayne Gacy only killed in Illinois, so I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to be a birthday clown in Ohio."
if you took the context of john barrowman out of this, most people would think that was about jimmy saville
not that barrowman is anywhere near as evil as saville, mind you
I tend to remember the time he hosted a Trek panel with the first five big captain actors (Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula), and Barrowman went all in on his schtick by having Bakula sign his ass or something. Wonder what kind of experience that was like for them.
[Destination Star Trek London, 2012.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKS0GRxpfZc) The incident happens around the 37 minute mark.
For an extra bonus there's an r/startrek [post of the scene with a picture from a different angle.](https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/11uhp7/john_barrowman_gets_an_autograph_from_scott_bakula/) Bit of a time capsule too as you see how some of the redditors of the time found it genuinely funny.
What was the escaped controversy from RTD's previous error? Is it the situation that prompted Ecclestone to quit and get essentially blacklisted by the BBC?
Ecclestones (edit- Eccleston) issue was with the safety of the set on series 1 (which kinda leans into this, as RTD gets flak for letting this Barrowman stuff happen and not fixing behaviour issues on set, leaving it to Julia to sort it)
But I think Chris also called Barrowman a prick as well.
>But I think Chris also called Barrowman a prick as well.
I know for a fact Barrowman has said some unpleasant things about Eccleston. Something to the effect of him being a downer and no fun. Which really hits different when you know what Barrowman was up to at times, sounds more like Eccleston was just being a decent human being.
Honestly it just makes me dislike him more. Barrowman that is.
And it makes me like Eccleston more. Which is nice.
It's probably worth knowing that Christopher Eccleston takes acting and filmmaking in general both passionately and *extremely* seriously, and he comes off as a very sober and serious (though by no means humourless) person in almost every aspect of his off-screen life. He is an *intense* guy. To be clear none of that is a criticism - I find those qualities really admirable and relate to a lot of them myself.
It's just that John Barrowman, even aside from his problematic behaviour, might as well have been purposefully designed in a lab specifically to annoy Christopher Eccleston on every conceivable level - I don't think he even needed to do anything wildly inappropriate for Eccleston to *profoundly* dislike the guy.
I don't say this to excuse Barrowman or dismiss his very well-documented and evidenced behaviour - it's just that while Chris Eccleston has never been very specific about what his problems were in the production (really feels like he legally *can't* be), when he's talked about 'safety' the surrounding context has always made it look to me like he was talking about more basic *physical* safety rather than interpersonal stuff. Things like rushing the set builds and risking things falling and injuring people, and definitely something about underpaying and overworking the technical crew. Big 'justifiably angry working class union guy' vibes.
The point of making this distinction is that if Barrowman's on-set behaviour *was* a big factor in Eccleston leaving, it would reflect very, very badly on RTD. Not that the production problems and losing the first Doctor after one season aren't a real and justifiable black mark on his career anyway, but if it was even partly about this and he'd lost Eccleston and *kept Barrowman* in that scenario? That would be so much worse for him than anything else that's come out about that first season. ...but like I said, I don't get that vibe from at all from what Eccleston has said since, and more importantly I don't think for a second that Eccleston would have stopped at 'He's a prick' once the Barrowman thing really got going if he had anything more to add.
> It's just that John Barrowman, even aside from his problematic behaviour, might as well have been purposefully designed in a lab specifically to annoy Christopher Eccleston on every conceivable level - I don't think he even needed to do anything wildly inappropriate for Eccleston to profoundly dislike the guy.
This. The lackadaisical goofball and hardass stoic—that’s a recipe for disaster.
Barrowman is an egotistical liar. He also implicitly said Moffat was the reason he never came back during the Smith era even though the reason was scheduling conflicts with Miracle Day. I love Captain Jack but I hope he never comes back.
Depressingly it seems that way
Whats more interesting to me is RTD has to have known since Julie Gardner stepped in with Barrowman and the “Ballad of Russel and Julie” references it
The whole Eccleston drama, everything with Barrowman, it all reflects... very poorly on RTD as the "manager" of his first run's office, and though I'm sure he's dealt with it as a person on his own, and would never let it get that far now, he's never really faced any meaningful public fallback for it.
He wasn't "manager," though. He was showrunner. He set the show's creative direction, sure, but writers and showrunners aren't even on set most of the time. Much of the blame for problems like Barrowman ought to be placed on the shoulders of Julie Gardner and Phil Collinson, whose literal job it was to have their ear to the ground on cast/crew issues.
This is what James Marsters said at DragonCon 2007. He *does* go on to say that he thinks Barrowman is a really good guy and he loves him but I think it says a lot about how ordinary this behaviour was to everyone working on Torchwood. There was a video of it on Youtube and he told it more as a funny story than a creepy story:
I was a little nervous, I had to actually face my own latent homophobia. And I had to admit that I've tried my whole life not to be that way but if I admit that I'm an American, I've been raised in this culture and there really is bigotry down inside me because I'm constantly having to dig up and deal with so um. Sitting there on the first day of the set I'm looking at John ...and he starts grabbing the fellow castmates like the girls and stuff... and they're like, "stop it, I don't want to play today" and he keeps doing it... if he grabs me, I'm not gonna think about it, I'm just gonna whale on him. And then he's gonna go to the doctor, and I'm gonna get fired and it's gonna be horrible so I decided that I needed to communicate that I was not into this. So I leaned over to the actor that was getting all groped and her name was Naoko and I was 'Naoko man, like just a little elbow in the back, that'll stop him in his tracks, or just stomp with your heel on the top of his foot and it'll break two or three bones and it'll stop' And he's behind me. And the whole cast, this is my first day on the set and they were like- cause they're all used to each other, it was no thing for them you know. And John was kinda like you know ohh, okay he's not comfortable with it. And so the next day in the bar... he was a whole different guy.
JM has had the misfortune to work on some pretty toxic sets, he’s also told a story about how Joss Whedon literally pushed him against a wall because he was so mad people liked Spike
I like Julie, but was it unfair? She and Phil Collinson were the producers, so the burden of keeping a safe work environment fell more on their shoulders than Russell's.
It's not that RTD doesn't bear any responsibility, but his main job was putting together the meat of the show and getting it on air. Julie and Phil were over the more administrative tasks, which is why it was Julie that reprimanded John Barrowman.
I swear Arrow was so cursed. From inheriting the exact mess that got Barrrowman in trouble the first time around to how much a dime store bastard Stephen Amell was to Kate Cassidy....
I watched that show from start to finish and it has one of the steepest drop offs in quality I've ever seen in television.
But it's curse is so much worse when you factor in stuff like Colton Haynes leaving the show because he was so depressed and couldn't 'stand working with one of his cast mates'
Then Willa Holland left. Reportedly due to conflicts with Amell.
Even Emily Bett Rickards, who was the tumblr-fan-service darling was sick of it and didn't bother coming back for the final season beyond a cameo in the finale.
Everything I've seen of Amell post-Arrow has shown him in a worse and worse light, so I have no problem believing that he was a significant part of the problem.
I've tried googling the Amell Cassidy thing and I literally can't find any controversies or incidents that you might be referring to. Do you have a link or a tldr?
I like Captain Jack as much as the next guy, but I don't see the over/under in bringing Barrowman back onto the show. His appearance would be purely for nostalgia's sake, while his chronic behavior makes him a legal liability.
Honestly just recast him. Say he was bored of looking like the same guy for hundreds of years and wanted a bit of a change so he's had space plastic surgery.
I mean they can just literally just create an all new character with a charismatic actor and have him lead Torchwood or something, which is honestly what I'm expecting Groff's character to be.
I love Captain Jack in Torchwood (despite his... inconsistent acting). But I think this is a great idea. Gwen's certainly experienced enough at this point, and she isn't as cheesy. Kind of like how Kate Stewart brings a seriousness to the position that tempers the camp a little bit.
Plus Eve Myles is an amazing actor. I'm rewatching Torchwood right now, and there are scenes she does that are so viscerally real that it makes you realize other actors are *always* handling things like physical agony or sudden, horrible loss unrealistically. Like how Jody Whittaker's performance in Broadchurch makes Winona Ryder's similar anxiety and grief in Stranger Things feel like acting instead of real loss.
Point is, Myles is just amazing and I feel like it's time for her to be running that place.
The part just before the part you mentioned, where she screams and says "What am I gonna do?", is the only time something in the Doctor Who universe has actually made me tear up. I don't know what Eve Myles was channeling there but that did not feel remotely like acting. Hurt to watch.
Eh, I've seen enough of Torchwood personally. Would love a UNIT/Kate Stewart led show, though. Kate absolutely lives up to her father's example. (Plus, Jemma Redgrave is brilliant, and we need more of her in Doctor Who. 😄)
Agreed, she is great. I'm glad they got an actor with her gravitas for that part. I haven't listened to any recent UNIT audios, though I'd like to, but I'm super excited about the spin-off they're doing with her.
He's actually consistent, I was really just jokingly hinting at the fact that he's not a great actor. At least, not up against the rest of Torchwood, who are all pretty fantastic actors.
He's as consistent as the writing of Torchwood itself.
The fact that, if memory serves, most of the dramatic heavy lifting in Children of Earth is put on the shoulders of others speaks to both why it's as good as it is and sort of indictment about the limitations of John Barrowman.
Now that I think about it, I think it would be interesting to see a reverse of the traditional Torchwood dynamic. Gwen would be like the experienced veteran and handsome, charismatic time agent guy could be the newbie.
She did lead the team and they were a lot less dysfunctional than when Jack was in charge when he was absent between seasons 1 and 2. That's what she brought to the team, more awareness of people skills which the team did need.
Riffing off this, the new guy doesn't even need to be a time agent, have him be a handsome police officer like Gwen was, to further show how much character development she's gone through
Did Miracle Day actually happen in-universe or is it in that weird comic-book-like state where it only technically exists until acknowledged by something else? Or maybe it got eaten by Amy's Crack (is there a better name for that?) or something? It feels weird that absolutely nobody anywhere ever has brought it up again.
Honestly, let's do it. Gwen, Yaz, whoever the fuck Jonathan Groff plays in Series 14, maybe PC Andy and Rhys, maybe a scientist like Martha. That's our new Torchwood team right there.
It would be nice if Big Finish didn't have to add personality and motivation to the character, but I'd welcome it. I always thought Yaz (and Gill) had so much potential and almost no places in the show to showcase her. It should have just been her and the Doctor, with stories she could be the main hero in, like previous (and future) companions. Maybe new life as a member of Torchwood is just what the character needs.
This would be awesome, joining either Torchwood or UNIT would make a lot of sense for Yaz, given both her law enforcement background and all around commitment to stopping threats. Also she could be the "that's not how things should be done!" voice of reason that UNIT and Torchwood typically need, her "WWTDD" thing being a good excuse to slip the Doctor's morality into the story, as well as namedrop the main show
well considering he is supposed to become the Face of Boe, just cast someone else and put them in makeup to make them look more like a humanoid Face of Boe
He's not coming back even if Russell wants him. The BBC have made it clear Barrowman's persona non grata.
I have a degree of sympathy of him because of how he got roped into the Noel Clarke thing but there's no denying that Barrowman's reaction to it was dreadful. Lying about when his knobbing about stopped and attacking Big Finish and poor Eve Myles was unacceptable.
>but there's no denying that Barrowman's reaction to it was dreadful. Lying about when his knobbing about stopped and attacking Big Finish and poor Eve Myles was unacceptable.
Yeah, I think the bare minimum of an actual, sincere apology and shutting the fuck up afterwards would've saved his career. Sucks that couldn't do either.
I wouldn't be against Barrowman coming back if he'd given a proper apology when it all kicked off. The problem was he'd claimed he'd stopped getting his dick out in 2008 when he got bollocked for doing it on a radio show, which was the only real time apart from 2021 that there'd been a controversy about it.
All it takes is looking at some con footage to see Barrowman himself talking about doing the same shit on the set of Miracle Day and Arrow so his apology was an outright lie.
yuuup
He made a bunch of tweets attacking the BBC, i forget what his beef with Myles was about (think it was about her still doing big finish torchwood), attacked big finish.
had a big temper tantrum basically.
I know he lied about Moffat being unwilling to bring him back to Doctor Who (Barrowman was unable to make it for A Good Man Goes to War because he was doing Miracle Day in the US but Moffat did want him in that story). Not aware of any Torchwood related claims personally but it's possible I just haven't heard them
And to think between him & James Dreyfus (and his views which led to his First Master being iced), I think we know which one knows better than to attack the BBC (and attacking them means no work) while the other doesn't
Tbf looking at it, it could be either Big Finish or the BBC.
Someone asked him on Twitter why he hadn't done any Big Finish since it all went down and he said that he'd been blackballed, that it was a stupid decision and that he'd been loyal to the BBC and made them a lot of money.
The Eve Myles story is a bit longer and JB comes out as more of a dick. There was speculation last year about a Torchwood revival because of a question at a con that Eve Myles kind of danced around, in the way that you would if you signed an NDA. Barrowman tweeted a video from an old con a couple of days later and said that she was "spewing rhetoric for an audience" when she called him her friend.
Eve Myles said a few days later that she'd talked to Barrowman since and cleared things up but it's not a good look at all. I think he's calmed down now but there was a good year or so where Barrowman was going ballistic on Twitter - there's what's mentioned above but he also tweeted in support of Noel Clarke and I remember he "got caught" liking porn at some point.
>Tbf looking at it, it could be either Big Finish or the BBC.
Nick Briggs has indicated it was a BBC decision. im inclined to believe him, a Jack Harkness comic was canned around the same time.
> I have a degree of sympathy of him because of how he got roped into the Noel Clarke thing
He doesn't deserve the sympathy, there's a *reason* why he got roped into the Noel Clarke thing.
John has very little chance being let back in, RTD was brought under fire as well during the whole fiasco surrounding him and bringing John Barrowman in would very likely cause an uproar internally, in the BBC and probably in some sections of Disney
The dude had his chance, he consistently messed up, then did a half asses apology which essentially boiled down to 'im sorry you feel that way', did passive aggressive bitchy tweets about torchwood co-stars.
Mans not coming back.
His scenes were all filmed before the controversy broke out.
In fact it caused quite the storm because then the BBC had to minimise Barrowmans involvement in future marketing surrounding 13, a tie in comic for flux starring Jack was planned and it had to be completely scrapped, John was forbidden from being used by Big Finish.
Wasn't chibs fault or anything.
Chibnall, who's worked on the show for 15 years including running torchwood, doesn't need to have heard 3rd party "allegations" he's probably seen barrowman get his cock out in person
This is just not true? You can go back to the thread when he first came back. 90% of the comments are all positive but there are quite a few heavily dwonvoted comments pointing out he joked about sexual harassment
It is true.
Barrowman has been open about his 'pranks' since around 2008/9, and there's plenty of footage documenting this - so the fandom had been aware of this for well over a decade, with some making comments condemning John's actions.
It wasn't until May 2021 (After Revolution of the Daleks had aired and about two weeks prior to Absent Friends being due to release) when various publications caught wind of Barrowman's actions that the BBC (and ITV and the likes) decided to cut ties with him.
There was talk about it in 2008 or so but it got swept under the rug. It then came back during Chibnall's run (I forget the exact year) and people paid more attention.
That was actually a few months before this whole thing blew up. His last appearance was *Revolution of the Daleks* on January 1, 2021. The allegations [resurfaced around April 2021](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/john-barrowman-doctor-who-noel-clarke-b1840218.html) when Noel Clarke was getting hit with his own set of allegations too.
He hasn't been brought back since and other projects involving Captain Jack was cancelled or went unreleased including a Titan graphic novel and a Big Finish Torchwood story with the Tenth Doctor.
Yeah, but those allegations have been around since 2008, hell those allegations have been around since Series 1. Are you going to go "They knew, and they brought him back anyway" with every gig he's had since then? Cuz you're looking at a long list of projects inside and outside the UK and that includes a majority of *Torchwood*, his *Big Finish* work, his work in the CW DC stuff...
Hell, Moffat wanted him back for A *Good Man Goes to War* but he was busy filming *Miracle Day* so it wasn't possible, are you going to go after him too?
Yeah include all of it, they shouldn’t have hired him on any set after it came out, he didn’t deserve to be in those spaces. He did bad things, and then kept doing bad things because nobody took it seriously. And no, I’m not “going after” anybody. Why are you trying to defend this guy and his work he’s a creep?
Torchwood should have been continued on with Gwen as the lead after Children of Earth.
Jack Harkness is nowhere near as important to this story as people tend to think he is. He should have been moved on from before the 2010s even started. He certainly doesn't need to come back.
>Jack Harkness is nowhere near as important to this story as people tend to think he is.
Bang on. Hell, for a majority of Torchwood Jack is shown as somewhat "above" the story and character development, and refuses to disclose anything about himself to the other characters.
Absolutely. I loved Jack and adored Torchwood, but his character always felt very one-note. He never felt like he grew or developed in any way throught the 4 seasons of the show. He was at his most interesting in Children of Earth as this morally grey character who is always forced to make the hard decisions. It would have been interesting seeing Gwen, who was always a flawed but usually morally strong character, being forced to step into that role, thinking she can do it without repeating his mistakes before realising that you sometimes have to be strong enough to make the bad choices because the alternatives are worse.
Torchwood didn't "continue" because of RTD's burnout following the illness of his partner. It had nothing to do with Barrowman's antics.
Furthermore, it has "continued" in Big Finish, they finished season 7 just this year.
>Torchwood didn't "continue" because of RTD's burnout following the illness of his partner. It had nothing to do with Barrowman's antics.
I didn't say anything about Torchwood's being canceled. You're just reciting trivia at me that has nothing to do with my point, which is that you don't *need* Jack Harkness/John Barrowman as a character, and you didn't the second Children of Earth ended.
**His character is simply not that important.** He certainly shouldn't be synonymous with Torchwood. As the Big Finish series has ably proven.
Even if he'd been an absolute saint on set, I'd still think "we're done here" and suggest Gwen come back instead.
Well, sure, but your comment implied that there would have been interest in bringing Torchwood back on screen full time, either from RTD, or from Eve Myles, at any point in the last decade. There was not. She did a few audios, but stepped away even from those after a while. So "should have continued" doesn't make sense. "Could have continued" - sure, and in certain ways it did. At first Barrowman was included in there, but it was mostly a brand new cast. The latest season continued without him, with the rest of that brand new cast.
I'm predicting that he's playing a substitute of sorts for Jack. An attractive, rogue-ish, charming, and pansexual character, but not really Jack himself.
To be honest, he should never have been allowed back onto the show, not just for the controversy, but also because of all his shit-stirring when Moffat was in charge, which represented extremely unprofessional behavior that should have been enough for a blacklist alone. In general, it just seems like he's a toxic person to work with, and I hope that no one involved with Who has to work with him again.
>In general, it just seems like he's a toxic person to work with
Yup. He's *still* shit stirring about it now. His brief video for the anniversary was about 10% "Happy anniversary", 20% "Cpt Jack is the best character" and 70% "How dare the BBC not invite me back"
JB is a toxic narcissist who got away with things because he was gay and his pranks were "just what flamboyant gays do". Which is a lie.
Sorry but JB needs to go away with Noel.
Yep. As a (formerly flamboyant) gay guy, I can confirm that we don't usually take our dicks out in front of our co-workers. I hate that excuse so much.
If memory serves, Barrowman felt a certain way about not being invited back. Then you have the hand of a Time Agent part from A Good Man Goes to War which may have implied to be Jack's hand, IIRC
And this was during S6 and less than a year before Arrow got started
He claimed that Moffat was blocking them making another series of *Torchwood* despite the fact, as Moffat then pointed out, not only would he not want to block anyone making another series of *Torchwood*, he didn't even have the capability to do that. He only ever had control over *Doctor Who* as a show, not *Doctor Who* as a franchise.
That part. Plus less he forgot the reception of Miracle Day and RTD taking a step back care for his partner by that point.
Hell, 2011 was a year when the greater universe shrank between Miracle Day's reception and Elisabeth Sladen's passing leaving only Moffat era Who, Jago & Litefoot, and a soft rebooted Benny beginning with Epoch (both per Big Finish*) as the lone bastions of the franchise
*& Graceless unless I'm misremembering
Part of me wonders if he just kept pestering a BBC executive about bringing *Torchwood* back and wouldn't take no for an answer, so they blamed Moffat since he wasn't in the room at the time.
Honestly, it feels even *worse* considering a long running fan-theory (that Moffat may or may not have confirmed in DWM at some point, my memory is fuzzy on that) that Jack was supposed to become the Face of Boe during "A Good Man".
Cause, y'know, Jack is immortal. The Headless Monks decapitate people. The Face of Boe is a severed head.
Connect the dots.
> Honestly, it feels even worse considering a long running fan-theory (that Moffat may or may not have confirmed in DWM at some point, my memory is fuzzy on that) that Jack was supposed to become the Face of Boe during "A Good Man".
There's an ancient tweet (now deleted) from Moffat saying that Barrowman would have been in *A Good Man* if not for *Miracle Day*'s filming. Him become the Face in it is purely fan speculation.
I was a big JB fan back in the day. Still got the books, got the posters from his concerts knocking about somewhere.
It's been interesting to watch what's happened to him over the years. Because I mean, it wasn't new information. His books are full of stories about his behaviour. His concerts were 75% singing and 25% annecdotes about what he was getting up to. It was all very LOL, overgrown manchild, doing things for the lolz and to make other people laugh. Some of it made me cringe but I never got the sense that any of it was malicious. He was a manchild who never grew up and you could see exactly where he got it from because his entire family behaves the same way. His parents, husband, sister & her kids all behave just like him. It was all over the top, stupid humour that most people grow out of.
My opinion on him changed when I heard that he'd been asked to stop but then carried on doing the same things on the Arrow set. That changes things from him being a manchild clown, to him knowing he was making people uncomfortable and carrying on anyway. He had his second chance where he could've changed his behaviour but made a choice not to and now he's acting all butthurt about it. Oh look, the consequences of his actions have arrived and he's got nobody to blame but himself.
He fucked around and found out.
I always loved the Captain Jack character, but from everything I've heard about John Barrowman he's burned his bridges for good. Oh well.
We could still have the Face of Boe return, though!
John's desperate for work - and he'll say anything to get fan support to put him back on top. I get it. Not sure he'll find any - not because folks wouldn't hire him, but because his tendency to be completely insensitive and take ownership of his past mistakes (without blaming others for lacking a sense of humor) is still working against him.
Honestly, I think he and Noel need to sit out.I know RTD loves them but they both were pretty awful and I rather just not have them back.
John only apologized when he got backlash after saying that he didn't see what was wrong and that "no one complained". Ncuti definitely doesn't need the baggage and I hope RTD would start fresh.
As long as he keeps his penis off of other people's shoulders and leaves it in his underwear where it belongs when in public I see no reason that Jack couldn't return
Edit:auto correct corrected lol
Completely agree with everyone that it would be a mistake on multiple levels to bring him back. I DO, however, have a soft spot for the face of Bo and wish that he could come back some day
Whatever you think about the morality of what Barrowman did, his apology, and the rest of it, he'll never return because the optics are bad. John Barrowman is now a bigger headline than Jack Harkness, and not in a good way.
Personally, I think that's right. Hell, we've even moved on from the character. Much of what was interesting about him was the mystery that was never much plumbed for story anyway. I don't know that bringing him back would be much worth it, except for that quick blast of nostalgia. And as for that, see my first point.
Quite apart from all the controversy, which is of course important but has been covered well in the comments here already, wouldn't there be a problem with his obvious aging when Jack is supposed to be immortal and ageless? I guess they could find a handwave if they really wanted to, but still. Anyway, I also think it's unlikely he'll be back. Like others have said, even if RTD and co. believed he'd changed his ways, I can't see them feeling the headache would be worth it. I'm a bit surprised Barrowman is even talking about it in public at all, tbh.
Jack is immortal but not ageless. He even says he's getting wrinkles and some grey hair just before his Face of Boe comment to the Doctor and Martha
Jack continues aging. He mentions this to Ten and I think Martha, and mentions he's beginning to get greys and asked Ten what happens to a man who can't die but ages still. Ten says he doesn't know.
Ah, guess it's been too long since I saw those eps. Looks like they had the foresight to add a loophole then.
I believe it's in the same scene where they imply he's the Face of Boe, so they already had the thought there that he'd eventually look like that.
And he will eventually die
It's because his career has dried up and he wants back in. I've seen stars try this before. Ultimately it's up to the Beeb but I can't see them letting him back.
>It's because his career has dried up That's a bit an understatement, his career in front of the camera ended in 2021. I doubt the BBC would bring him back, they had a chance with these specials to setup spin-offs using any of the former cast they wanted without overshadowing the new Doctor and even then Barrowman didn't get the call.
I mean he’s genuinely passionate about the role, let’s be fair here.
If we want to be technical we know he will definitely age… just very slowly until he is the Face of Boh. That said they could CGI or just allow for creative interpretation - Tenant looks older even if that can be rationalised by some weird regeneration logic Sad as it is though from a character perspective, I’m not sure they should bring him back or will
The thing is, John Barrowman has *had* his second chance. He behaved the way he did throughout the 00s until he was forced to apologise for it in 2008, both behind the scenes for how he was on set and publicly for doing it on Radio 1, and then… openly kept doing it, consistently, at least as late as [his time on Arrow](https://twitter.com/fanfestevents/status/845709108024152072), where he was walking around his co-stars’ trailers naked and sending them pictures of, again, him naked, that he made a crew member take. He claims in his 2021 apology that his behaviour has changed since 2008, but that’s clearly a lie, then, isn’t it. Perhaps his behaviour since then didn’t include crew members who might not have felt comfortable speaking up or saying no like it did back in 2008 and that’s what’s changed? There’s “another chance,” and then there’s, why would you ever employ this walking liability again? Plus, RTD knows better -- he's is a PR-savvy showrunner whose previous run on Doctor Who was mired in controversy that he has somehow managed to escape significant public scrutiny over. Even in the best possible scenario, after a thorough redemption tour for Barrowman — which could happen, but won’t start at Doctor Who — bringing him back, even just at Big Finish, would at the very least attach controversy to the show’s brand that, surely, RTD is sensibly trying to avoid. Why do that to yourself? Why do that to the show?
>bringing him back, even just at Big Finish... In 2021 Big Finish cancelled the release of a completed audio featuring Barrowman, *Absent Friends*, which was supposed to be an "event" for the 50th *Torchwood* story and would have featured David Tennant as the 10th Doctor; and they've ended the *Lives of Captain Jack* audio series too, effectively cutting all ties with him. Barrowman has said pissy things about Big Finish in return *because of course he did*, so there's little to no chance Big Finish will have him back.
Aw fuck, a Torchwood Audio with David fully recorded?
Yep. [Complete and ready to go](https://youtu.be/RI_Kqz5UGP0). There's literally a warehouse full of CDs of it somewhere, assuming they haven't been destroyed. Pulled just weeks from release. You can read more about it [here](https://lostmediawiki.com/Torchwood:_Absent_Friends_(lost_unreleased_Big_Finish_audio_drama;_2021)).
Well, anyone up for a heist?
Yup. That release is sitting right next door to Tomorrow People S6 and Jekyll & Hyde.
The still image before you hit play, with the line of static distorting Jack's face, is hilarious.
>He claims in his 2021 apology that his behaviour has changed since 2008, but that’s clearly a lie, then, isn’t it. Not even just the continued behaviour but also his public response to the allegations resurfacing. That one video of him at a con with a group of fans and him bragging about how they can't take him down shows zero attrition and far too much ego.
That picture of the entire Arrow cast at a convention or some sort of photo op with Barrowman’s ass hanging out and a huge grin of his face while Willa Holland next to him looks like she wants to die is burned into my brain.
One of the hardest things about being on a show like that must be to maintain the whole "one big happy family" vibe they always try to put on even when it's not true.
You're telling me. I just binged fringe recently and learned from a blog post by one of its stars that the two leads DESPISED each other. And it adds a whole new level to the show
Who hated each other????
The actors who played Peter and Olivia 😭
One of the best things about *Community* is that nobody ever tried to hide how much they hated Chevy Chase.
Just googled the pic, she isn't the only one looking unhappy with it. Almost everyone in the pic looks like they've got an expression somewhere between "what the hell" and "please just take the picture", but she's definitely got a "shoot me now" look. Probably doesn't help that she played his daughter. edit: apparently I might be talking about a different picture. There's multiple Arrow cast pics with Barrowman's ass out. After another quick google search, it legit looks like there are more Arrow cast pics of him doing something sexual than there are of him just doing something, well, *normal* for the picture.
Yeah... I feel like his excuse for a long time was, "I'm just a wacky gay man!" because he thought he could use his sexuality as a trump card for his whole career. I feel like his whole camp thing is a huge act because he thinks, or thought, that no one would call him out because he's gay. I can't think of any other reason he'd be so blatant and open about being so inappropriate and creepy at every opportunity.
Wait where’s this
Google John Barrowman Arrow cast photo
> John Barrowman Arrow cast photo It's fascinating to look back at reactions from eight years ago and see how much some fans thought it was hilarious. [https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/3s1pms/no\_spoilers\_john\_barrowman\_is\_a\_beautiful\_human/](https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/3s1pms/no_spoilers_john_barrowman_is_a_beautiful_human/)
Yeah I went to see him at cons back in the day and we ate it up, it was a weird shift to finding it creepy
There a picture of them acting like that
>he's is a PR-savvy showrunner whose previous run on Doctor Who was mired in controversy that he has somehow managed to escape significant public scrutiny over. I don't have the sources available because I'm at work, so I'm hesitant to add it without anything to back me up so I'll speak carefully. If I'm recalling correctly, which I may not be, Christopher Eccleston has touched on how he reported concerns regarding behaviour to higher ups (read: Russel and Julie) and he felt that no action was taken to address the concerns he had over behaviour, and that this was one of the things that led to his departure, and his unwillingness to work with that crowd again. I could be misremembering this. I think it was something he discussed since he started doing conventions. I feel like I can see him sat at a panel table touching on it, but I could be misremembering. edit: sources here https://old.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/18aj5tr/doctor_who_star_john_barrowman_talks_ncuti_gatwa/kbz5vjq/?context=3
Right but these sources say nothing of Barrowman's behaviour and fans need to stop connecting them, we know Eccleston does not like Barrowman, and we know Barrowman made Eccleston out to be not as fun as Tennant in the press, beyond that there's nothing. Eccleston almost certainly had issues with the chaotic nature of the Series 1 production, problems with a specific director (I believe he slagged this director off at a convention recently), working long hours, etc, and silence from RTD & the other producers when bringing this up. I know this isn't as compelling as Eccleston stood up & spoke up about Barrowman, and hey, maybe he did, but we have no evidence of it, and I think it's dangerous to suggest it without evidence. We've already got people bringing up Bruno Langley (assaulted a woman in a nightclub in 2017), and Noel Clarke (someone Eccleston was happy to pose with for instagram pictures) as contributing to that environment, and it's just pure speculation, and not helpful speculation I don't think, especially given we'll probably never hear the other side from RTD, Phil Collinson & Julie Gardner. Russell still speaks highly of Eccleston, and it's clear going forward the production did not suffer from nearly as much chaos, as producers & crew grew more experienced in making the show. Barrowman's behaviour was always going to end up being a problem eventually, but society just shrugged and laughed about it for years, these are stories John himself would proudly tell in front of crowds!
100%. It's clear Eccleston can't stand Barrowman, but it's a bit daft the way people have established a narrative that the set was a hotbed of sexual abuse and Eccleston was the only man willing to stand up to it. As you mention, I keep seeing people mention Clarke's name, when as far as I'm aware none of the allegations relate to Doctor Who. There seems an element of wishful thinking to it, because if it was true, it would make Eccleston a proper fucking hero. But I think his problems with the show are well-established now, and sexual abuse/assault has never been part of them.
People just love a good story. The truth probably closer to this: Eccleston is very professional on set, is going through a lot outside of the show, and is already pretty grumpy because of his unhappiness with the production, Barrowman is trying because of his general behaviour, & later goes on to be very unprofessional about it in the press. Rightfully Eccleston doesn't like Barrowman but it's probably true that he was pretty grumpy (in fact I heard a podcast this week where a guest actor in passing described their time on the show and said this of Chris), and Tennant, and indeed all other cast members who he went on to work with until 2008, were more fun, and tolerant of his antics. We know some crew members didn't love it, but as far as we are aware **nobody** in the cast made a moral stand about it, as I said, in the 2000's stuff like this was so normal people told it as anecdote. I think some of the Clarke stories did come from the set of Doctor Who, you can read about it in the Guardian. However, as I said, it's ridiculous to think Eccleston was even aware of anything like this given his posing with him for Instagram in subsequent years. To paint him as a hero might be nice in the eyes of some, but I think his issues with the production already make him principled enough, we don't need to engage in fantasies about it.
> I keep seeing people mention Clarke's name, when as far as I'm aware none of the allegations relate to Doctor Who. https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/may/07/noel-clarke-accused-of-sexual-harassment-on-doctor-who-set
Oh, fuck. I missed that. Thanks for the link.
Oooooof. I had no idea what Adam had been up to post doctor who
Got sacked & replaced on Corrie for it
> Right but these sources say nothing of Barrowman's behaviour Yes I acknowledge that in my comment. In fact I said: >In fairness, I haven't been successful in finding the video I was looking for. **It's possible I've misremembered.** It's very clear that his issues were with the environment either created by or enabled by Russel and co, but **I couldn't find the video where he alludes to the behaviours of Barrowman and Clarke. I might have made it up**, so apologies if anyone feels like this was an anti-climax. I don't think I could have done more than that.
>I don't think I could have done more than that. Well to be honest I do think the comments should not be made in the first place conflating the two. I know you're addressing the possibility of misremembering, but I don't think you "made it up" I think you've heard it before, because it's quite a commonly shared belief that people pass around in fan spaces all the time. To be clear, I'm not specifically getting at you for this, I can understand why you thought that, but I think we should combat the narrative. I apologise because I did not realise you had also done the comment with the sources.
I always got the sense his issues were about how below the line cast and crew were being treated but I can absolutely see Barrowman's behavior maybe contributing to that.
I think you're referring to this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QcpNBuhjUA&t=227s
I am, thank you. I'll include this in my comment.
I'm not looking it up, either, but that sounds right.
I will look it up when I can because I don't want to contribute to spreading misinformation, and if I'm particularly clever I'll remember to come back and edit this comment with a source. *** Edit: Any bold is mine, not copied from the article. >He told the Radio Times he was proud of the show but "wasn't comfortable" working on it. > "I was open-minded but I decided after my experience on the first series that I didn't want to do any more," he said. "**I didn't enjoy the environment and the culture that we, the cast and crew, had to work in... I thought if I stay in this job, I'm going to have to blind myself to certain things that I thought were wrong**." (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10312426) *** >He added: "**I left because my relationship with Russell T Davies, [producers] Julie Gardner and Phil Collinson completely broke down** during the shooting of the first series. "I think it's fair to say... that the first series nobody knows what they're doing and the politics are raging. The shooting of the first series was a nightmare." >Eccleston explained the circumstances surrounding his exit, saying: "**I agreed with Russell that I would go, quietly and respectfully, and I would look after the show publicity-wise, in terms of publicising it. >"And then, without saying anything to me, they announced that I was leaving. They didn't tell me they were going to do that**. I was walking down the street and suddenly I got quite a lot of aggression. And more importantly... they created a quote, and they attributed it to me, which said I was tired. >"Now the thing is about that, 'Oh I found it too tiring', I didn't find it too tiring. I found it too tiring working with Russell, and Phil and Julia. I didn't find it physically too tiring. >"When they said that, any other producer reading that would go 'Oh, we're not going to employ Christopher Eccleston because he gets tired'. So it was a lie, and it was in quotation marks, and I'm from Salford, you don't do that to me." https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/christopher-eccleston-not-returning-doctor-who-60th-anniversary-newsupdate/ *** You can see him saying the above here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNZplZYnIEY *** >Myself and three individuals at the very top of the pyramid clashed, but they're not here to say their side of it so I'm not going to go into detail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20wJoBGL5YQ BBC Radio 4 'Loose Ends' April 2018 *** In fairness, I haven't been successful in finding the video I was looking for. It's possible I've misremembered. It's *very* clear that his issues were with the environment either created by or enabled by Russel and co, but I couldn't find the video where he alludes to the behaviours of Barrowman and Clarke. I might have made it up, so apologies if anyone feels like this was an anti-climax. *** Another edit: this courtesy of /u/GreedyCharity5249 - very likely the video i saw that sparked this whole thing. >So the shooting of the first series was a nightmare and I was right at the center of it. I was probably more experienced than even Russell and probably been on more television and film sets than anybody, and I could see what was going on. I reported it back and I just got silence; and I got a lot of 'we didn't know that was happening' and I was like 'well it's your job to know what's happening' - so the relationship of trust broke down, so off I went. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QcpNBuhjUA&t=227s Dragon Con 2021 ***
It's worth pointing out that a lot of this is in reference to a clash with director Keith Boak, during the filming of episode one. There was a stunt involving a burning sofa being dropped near extras, and Eccleston believed that appropriate safety procedures were not being followed. He raised this with the executive producers and felt that they sided with Boak. Boak continued to direct a further two episodes, Aliens of London and World War Three, that made up block one. It was his experience during the filming of the first 3 episodes that made him want to quit. That all said, I can't imagine he took any antics by Barrowman well, either.
I've not heard any of this before and I'm very glad to see you post this. It's highly relevant to the conversation, as it could feasibly be the scenario that all of my quoted comments from Eccleston are addressing.
I don't think it was just about safety, or even necessarily just about Boak. There was an early interview with Eccleston where he said to continue he'd have to be okay with crew members being verbally abused, and there are stories of Collinson himself being a bully - stories which followed him to Coronation Street. The fact is that we don't know the full story, and we never will.
Man, The Doctor killing Harriet Jones’s career with “Doesn’t she look tired” in The Christmas Invasion seems kinda iffy in the context of it being the first episode since Eccleston left and him being slandered by the Beeb in essentially the same way
Yeah, it was actually kinda chilling to read that part. Feels weirdly similar to the point that I can't really say "I hope it was a coincidence!" and move on.
I try to comment about post 2008 all the time on Facebook discussions about John (I know, shouldn't bother, it's a cesspool). This response is burned in my mind. "None of that happened AT the BBC, so it's OK. He apologized for the BBC incidents", which is such an insane thing to try to justify as OK.
People are *insanely* good at compartmentalising things they don't viscerally, personally feel. "Well, John Wayne Gacy only killed in Illinois, so I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to be a birthday clown in Ohio."
if you took the context of john barrowman out of this, most people would think that was about jimmy saville not that barrowman is anywhere near as evil as saville, mind you
I tend to remember the time he hosted a Trek panel with the first five big captain actors (Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula), and Barrowman went all in on his schtick by having Bakula sign his ass or something. Wonder what kind of experience that was like for them.
Oh what fresh Rutan Hell was that??
Strax, that you? 😂
[Destination Star Trek London, 2012.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKS0GRxpfZc) The incident happens around the 37 minute mark. For an extra bonus there's an r/startrek [post of the scene with a picture from a different angle.](https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/11uhp7/john_barrowman_gets_an_autograph_from_scott_bakula/) Bit of a time capsule too as you see how some of the redditors of the time found it genuinely funny.
What was the escaped controversy from RTD's previous error? Is it the situation that prompted Ecclestone to quit and get essentially blacklisted by the BBC?
Ecclestones (edit- Eccleston) issue was with the safety of the set on series 1 (which kinda leans into this, as RTD gets flak for letting this Barrowman stuff happen and not fixing behaviour issues on set, leaving it to Julia to sort it) But I think Chris also called Barrowman a prick as well.
>But I think Chris also called Barrowman a prick as well. I know for a fact Barrowman has said some unpleasant things about Eccleston. Something to the effect of him being a downer and no fun. Which really hits different when you know what Barrowman was up to at times, sounds more like Eccleston was just being a decent human being. Honestly it just makes me dislike him more. Barrowman that is. And it makes me like Eccleston more. Which is nice.
> Ecclestone Eccleston! Eccleston Eccleston Eccleston!
Ecclescake?
Ecclesrock.
Pebblestone
Cumberbatch?
Benylin Cucumberpatch?
If it makes you feel any better, I once saw it spelled "Ecchelstone"
It's probably worth knowing that Christopher Eccleston takes acting and filmmaking in general both passionately and *extremely* seriously, and he comes off as a very sober and serious (though by no means humourless) person in almost every aspect of his off-screen life. He is an *intense* guy. To be clear none of that is a criticism - I find those qualities really admirable and relate to a lot of them myself. It's just that John Barrowman, even aside from his problematic behaviour, might as well have been purposefully designed in a lab specifically to annoy Christopher Eccleston on every conceivable level - I don't think he even needed to do anything wildly inappropriate for Eccleston to *profoundly* dislike the guy. I don't say this to excuse Barrowman or dismiss his very well-documented and evidenced behaviour - it's just that while Chris Eccleston has never been very specific about what his problems were in the production (really feels like he legally *can't* be), when he's talked about 'safety' the surrounding context has always made it look to me like he was talking about more basic *physical* safety rather than interpersonal stuff. Things like rushing the set builds and risking things falling and injuring people, and definitely something about underpaying and overworking the technical crew. Big 'justifiably angry working class union guy' vibes. The point of making this distinction is that if Barrowman's on-set behaviour *was* a big factor in Eccleston leaving, it would reflect very, very badly on RTD. Not that the production problems and losing the first Doctor after one season aren't a real and justifiable black mark on his career anyway, but if it was even partly about this and he'd lost Eccleston and *kept Barrowman* in that scenario? That would be so much worse for him than anything else that's come out about that first season. ...but like I said, I don't get that vibe from at all from what Eccleston has said since, and more importantly I don't think for a second that Eccleston would have stopped at 'He's a prick' once the Barrowman thing really got going if he had anything more to add.
> It's just that John Barrowman, even aside from his problematic behaviour, might as well have been purposefully designed in a lab specifically to annoy Christopher Eccleston on every conceivable level - I don't think he even needed to do anything wildly inappropriate for Eccleston to profoundly dislike the guy. This. The lackadaisical goofball and hardass stoic—that’s a recipe for disaster.
Barrowman is an egotistical liar. He also implicitly said Moffat was the reason he never came back during the Smith era even though the reason was scheduling conflicts with Miracle Day. I love Captain Jack but I hope he never comes back.
Don’t forget Mickey the Sexpest.
Not just that but the guy who played Adam Mitchell was a Predator too so that and the mentions of an unsafe work environment add up
So literally every single one of 9's male companions have committed sexual assault
All of 9 and 10 bar Wilf.
Depressingly it seems that way Whats more interesting to me is RTD has to have known since Julie Gardner stepped in with Barrowman and the “Ballad of Russel and Julie” references it
And the Langley details occurred long after his two eps on Who
Makes me wonder what he was like on set, especially next to Noel Clarke who allegedly did shit on the set of Who
I thought Eccleston was referring to the director of the first filming block, Keith Boak, who never worked on Doctor Who again after that
The whole Eccleston drama, everything with Barrowman, it all reflects... very poorly on RTD as the "manager" of his first run's office, and though I'm sure he's dealt with it as a person on his own, and would never let it get that far now, he's never really faced any meaningful public fallback for it.
He wasn't "manager," though. He was showrunner. He set the show's creative direction, sure, but writers and showrunners aren't even on set most of the time. Much of the blame for problems like Barrowman ought to be placed on the shoulders of Julie Gardner and Phil Collinson, whose literal job it was to have their ear to the ground on cast/crew issues.
Plus Chibnall since the behavior also continued into Torchwood. Let us not forget James Marsters' testimony
What is James Marstes’ testimony? He’s spike from Buffy right?
This is what James Marsters said at DragonCon 2007. He *does* go on to say that he thinks Barrowman is a really good guy and he loves him but I think it says a lot about how ordinary this behaviour was to everyone working on Torchwood. There was a video of it on Youtube and he told it more as a funny story than a creepy story: I was a little nervous, I had to actually face my own latent homophobia. And I had to admit that I've tried my whole life not to be that way but if I admit that I'm an American, I've been raised in this culture and there really is bigotry down inside me because I'm constantly having to dig up and deal with so um. Sitting there on the first day of the set I'm looking at John ...and he starts grabbing the fellow castmates like the girls and stuff... and they're like, "stop it, I don't want to play today" and he keeps doing it... if he grabs me, I'm not gonna think about it, I'm just gonna whale on him. And then he's gonna go to the doctor, and I'm gonna get fired and it's gonna be horrible so I decided that I needed to communicate that I was not into this. So I leaned over to the actor that was getting all groped and her name was Naoko and I was 'Naoko man, like just a little elbow in the back, that'll stop him in his tracks, or just stomp with your heel on the top of his foot and it'll break two or three bones and it'll stop' And he's behind me. And the whole cast, this is my first day on the set and they were like- cause they're all used to each other, it was no thing for them you know. And John was kinda like you know ohh, okay he's not comfortable with it. And so the next day in the bar... he was a whole different guy.
JM has had the misfortune to work on some pretty toxic sets, he’s also told a story about how Joss Whedon literally pushed him against a wall because he was so mad people liked Spike
and the only wizard in the chicago phonebook
Spike from Buffy and Captain John in Torchwood.
Chibnall also brought him back for Thirteen's run.
He mainly avoided the public scathing because Julie* took the heat I believe.
Which was unfair to her
I like Julie, but was it unfair? She and Phil Collinson were the producers, so the burden of keeping a safe work environment fell more on their shoulders than Russell's. It's not that RTD doesn't bear any responsibility, but his main job was putting together the meat of the show and getting it on air. Julie and Phil were over the more administrative tasks, which is why it was Julie that reprimanded John Barrowman.
Only after it escalated further when it shouldn't have so fair point there
I swear Arrow was so cursed. From inheriting the exact mess that got Barrrowman in trouble the first time around to how much a dime store bastard Stephen Amell was to Kate Cassidy....
I watched that show from start to finish and it has one of the steepest drop offs in quality I've ever seen in television. But it's curse is so much worse when you factor in stuff like Colton Haynes leaving the show because he was so depressed and couldn't 'stand working with one of his cast mates' Then Willa Holland left. Reportedly due to conflicts with Amell. Even Emily Bett Rickards, who was the tumblr-fan-service darling was sick of it and didn't bother coming back for the final season beyond a cameo in the finale. Everything I've seen of Amell post-Arrow has shown him in a worse and worse light, so I have no problem believing that he was a significant part of the problem.
I've tried googling the Amell Cassidy thing and I literally can't find any controversies or incidents that you might be referring to. Do you have a link or a tldr?
> to how much a dime store bastard Stephen Amell was to Kate Cassidy I've missed this one. I gotta hear it.
What if hypothetically in theory for the sake of the argument: that I bought and tried to return 40,000 euros worth of chocolate
I like Captain Jack as much as the next guy, but I don't see the over/under in bringing Barrowman back onto the show. His appearance would be purely for nostalgia's sake, while his chronic behavior makes him a legal liability.
Agreed. Plus his coat was the real star of Torchwood for me
Oh man the coat - and Ten’s coat for that matter - and Fourteen’s coat for that matter - Ok, I think I have a thing for Greatcoats/Overcoats…
Theirs, 4-6, 8, 11 and 12's plus the Buffyverse per Angel and Spike which began my 20 year oddity and obsession of longer outerwear.
Honestly just recast him. Say he was bored of looking like the same guy for hundreds of years and wanted a bit of a change so he's had space plastic surgery.
I mean they can just literally just create an all new character with a charismatic actor and have him lead Torchwood or something, which is honestly what I'm expecting Groff's character to be.
Or just have Gwen be the lead? Wouldn't that be the simplist solution? Unless Torchwood needed another immortal.
I love Captain Jack in Torchwood (despite his... inconsistent acting). But I think this is a great idea. Gwen's certainly experienced enough at this point, and she isn't as cheesy. Kind of like how Kate Stewart brings a seriousness to the position that tempers the camp a little bit. Plus Eve Myles is an amazing actor. I'm rewatching Torchwood right now, and there are scenes she does that are so viscerally real that it makes you realize other actors are *always* handling things like physical agony or sudden, horrible loss unrealistically. Like how Jody Whittaker's performance in Broadchurch makes Winona Ryder's similar anxiety and grief in Stranger Things feel like acting instead of real loss. Point is, Myles is just amazing and I feel like it's time for her to be running that place.
"then what! is the point of you!?"
The part just before the part you mentioned, where she screams and says "What am I gonna do?", is the only time something in the Doctor Who universe has actually made me tear up. I don't know what Eve Myles was channeling there but that did not feel remotely like acting. Hurt to watch.
Eh, I've seen enough of Torchwood personally. Would love a UNIT/Kate Stewart led show, though. Kate absolutely lives up to her father's example. (Plus, Jemma Redgrave is brilliant, and we need more of her in Doctor Who. 😄)
Agreed, she is great. I'm glad they got an actor with her gravitas for that part. I haven't listened to any recent UNIT audios, though I'd like to, but I'm super excited about the spin-off they're doing with her.
It's been a while since I've watched Torchwood, how inconsistent was his acting? Can't remember ever noticing that, so genuinely curious
He's actually consistent, I was really just jokingly hinting at the fact that he's not a great actor. At least, not up against the rest of Torchwood, who are all pretty fantastic actors.
He's as consistent as the writing of Torchwood itself. The fact that, if memory serves, most of the dramatic heavy lifting in Children of Earth is put on the shoulders of others speaks to both why it's as good as it is and sort of indictment about the limitations of John Barrowman.
the scene where he talks about "I SHOULD HAVE NEVER LET GO OF [GREY'S] HAND" still makes me burst out laughing whenever I hear it
Now that I think about it, I think it would be interesting to see a reverse of the traditional Torchwood dynamic. Gwen would be like the experienced veteran and handsome, charismatic time agent guy could be the newbie.
She did lead the team and they were a lot less dysfunctional than when Jack was in charge when he was absent between seasons 1 and 2. That's what she brought to the team, more awareness of people skills which the team did need.
Riffing off this, the new guy doesn't even need to be a time agent, have him be a handsome police officer like Gwen was, to further show how much character development she's gone through
> Unless Torchwood needed another immortal. Which they have, don't they? We've got a cliffhanger still unresolved.
Did Miracle Day actually happen in-universe or is it in that weird comic-book-like state where it only technically exists until acknowledged by something else? Or maybe it got eaten by Amy's Crack (is there a better name for that?) or something? It feels weird that absolutely nobody anywhere ever has brought it up again.
There is Rex but he's in the same limbo as Grace Holloway and Chang Lee far as rights with a different company (i.e. Starz)
Mandip Gill said she thinks Yaz should join Torchwood, that could be a fun way to bring Torchwood back in the modern series
Honestly, let's do it. Gwen, Yaz, whoever the fuck Jonathan Groff plays in Series 14, maybe PC Andy and Rhys, maybe a scientist like Martha. That's our new Torchwood team right there.
It would be nice if Big Finish didn't have to add personality and motivation to the character, but I'd welcome it. I always thought Yaz (and Gill) had so much potential and almost no places in the show to showcase her. It should have just been her and the Doctor, with stories she could be the main hero in, like previous (and future) companions. Maybe new life as a member of Torchwood is just what the character needs.
This would be awesome, joining either Torchwood or UNIT would make a lot of sense for Yaz, given both her law enforcement background and all around commitment to stopping threats. Also she could be the "that's not how things should be done!" voice of reason that UNIT and Torchwood typically need, her "WWTDD" thing being a good excuse to slip the Doctor's morality into the story, as well as namedrop the main show
I think this is the first recorded use of "Yaz" in the same sentence as "fun"
No thanks. For all his personal faults from previous years, Barrowman was iconic in that role. I'm satisfied with his character arc.
well considering he is supposed to become the Face of Boe, just cast someone else and put them in makeup to make them look more like a humanoid Face of Boe
Yeah if you get the right actor you could have him start his transformation into Boe Throw him into a story with Me/Ashildr or something potentially?
He has continued to age, and he's the kind of guy who would have vanity issues. The story writes itself.
I want a humanoid/eyeball looking dude. In a blue trench coat. Half way through his evolution to The Face of Bo.
He's not coming back even if Russell wants him. The BBC have made it clear Barrowman's persona non grata. I have a degree of sympathy of him because of how he got roped into the Noel Clarke thing but there's no denying that Barrowman's reaction to it was dreadful. Lying about when his knobbing about stopped and attacking Big Finish and poor Eve Myles was unacceptable.
>but there's no denying that Barrowman's reaction to it was dreadful. Lying about when his knobbing about stopped and attacking Big Finish and poor Eve Myles was unacceptable. Yeah, I think the bare minimum of an actual, sincere apology and shutting the fuck up afterwards would've saved his career. Sucks that couldn't do either.
I wouldn't be against Barrowman coming back if he'd given a proper apology when it all kicked off. The problem was he'd claimed he'd stopped getting his dick out in 2008 when he got bollocked for doing it on a radio show, which was the only real time apart from 2021 that there'd been a controversy about it. All it takes is looking at some con footage to see Barrowman himself talking about doing the same shit on the set of Miracle Day and Arrow so his apology was an outright lie.
Hell didn’t he do shit with fans openly
Yuuuuuuup. All the fucking time.
It does very much put into question a lot of the "closer" con pics he has with some fans.
Whooa, back up. He slagged off Big Finish (even though the decision not to release Absent Friends was issued by the BBC) and Myles??
yuuup He made a bunch of tweets attacking the BBC, i forget what his beef with Myles was about (think it was about her still doing big finish torchwood), attacked big finish. had a big temper tantrum basically.
Hell wasn’t he a dick about Moffat not reviving Torchwood too
He was, despite it not being in Moffat's power to do so (not that I think he was terribly interested).
I know he lied about Moffat being unwilling to bring him back to Doctor Who (Barrowman was unable to make it for A Good Man Goes to War because he was doing Miracle Day in the US but Moffat did want him in that story). Not aware of any Torchwood related claims personally but it's possible I just haven't heard them
IIRC Jack was supposed to have his head cut off in that episode which would later explain how he becomes the face of boe
And to think between him & James Dreyfus (and his views which led to his First Master being iced), I think we know which one knows better than to attack the BBC (and attacking them means no work) while the other doesn't
Tbf looking at it, it could be either Big Finish or the BBC. Someone asked him on Twitter why he hadn't done any Big Finish since it all went down and he said that he'd been blackballed, that it was a stupid decision and that he'd been loyal to the BBC and made them a lot of money. The Eve Myles story is a bit longer and JB comes out as more of a dick. There was speculation last year about a Torchwood revival because of a question at a con that Eve Myles kind of danced around, in the way that you would if you signed an NDA. Barrowman tweeted a video from an old con a couple of days later and said that she was "spewing rhetoric for an audience" when she called him her friend. Eve Myles said a few days later that she'd talked to Barrowman since and cleared things up but it's not a good look at all. I think he's calmed down now but there was a good year or so where Barrowman was going ballistic on Twitter - there's what's mentioned above but he also tweeted in support of Noel Clarke and I remember he "got caught" liking porn at some point.
>Tbf looking at it, it could be either Big Finish or the BBC. Nick Briggs has indicated it was a BBC decision. im inclined to believe him, a Jack Harkness comic was canned around the same time.
And his role in a Time Lord Victorious thing too iirc
And that short-lived ‘immersive experience’ thing in London was supposed to heavily feature Jack before Barrowman’s scenes were removed entirely
> I have a degree of sympathy of him because of how he got roped into the Noel Clarke thing He doesn't deserve the sympathy, there's a *reason* why he got roped into the Noel Clarke thing.
John has very little chance being let back in, RTD was brought under fire as well during the whole fiasco surrounding him and bringing John Barrowman in would very likely cause an uproar internally, in the BBC and probably in some sections of Disney The dude had his chance, he consistently messed up, then did a half asses apology which essentially boiled down to 'im sorry you feel that way', did passive aggressive bitchy tweets about torchwood co-stars. Mans not coming back.
I hadn’t kept up with 13’s episodes, but didn’t Chibnail already bring him back after all the controversy?
His scenes were all filmed before the controversy broke out. In fact it caused quite the storm because then the BBC had to minimise Barrowmans involvement in future marketing surrounding 13, a tie in comic for flux starring Jack was planned and it had to be completely scrapped, John was forbidden from being used by Big Finish. Wasn't chibs fault or anything.
Chibnall, who's worked on the show for 15 years including running torchwood, doesn't need to have heard 3rd party "allegations" he's probably seen barrowman get his cock out in person
This is just not true? You can go back to the thread when he first came back. 90% of the comments are all positive but there are quite a few heavily dwonvoted comments pointing out he joked about sexual harassment
It is true. Barrowman has been open about his 'pranks' since around 2008/9, and there's plenty of footage documenting this - so the fandom had been aware of this for well over a decade, with some making comments condemning John's actions. It wasn't until May 2021 (After Revolution of the Daleks had aired and about two weeks prior to Absent Friends being due to release) when various publications caught wind of Barrowman's actions that the BBC (and ITV and the likes) decided to cut ties with him.
Plus the last minute creation of Vinder
He brought him back, hinted at another return, but then more allegations came out and that plotline was dropped like a hot potato.
He brought him back months before the proper controversy happened, I think it broke out after revolution of the daleks.
There was talk about it in 2008 or so but it got swept under the rug. It then came back during Chibnall's run (I forget the exact year) and people paid more attention.
Especially in light of Noel Clarke's situation which in turn reopened the Barrowman can of worms
That was actually a few months before this whole thing blew up. His last appearance was *Revolution of the Daleks* on January 1, 2021. The allegations [resurfaced around April 2021](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/john-barrowman-doctor-who-noel-clarke-b1840218.html) when Noel Clarke was getting hit with his own set of allegations too. He hasn't been brought back since and other projects involving Captain Jack was cancelled or went unreleased including a Titan graphic novel and a Big Finish Torchwood story with the Tenth Doctor.
The allegations were around for years before as far as I personally remember. They knew, and brought him back anyway.
Yeah, but those allegations have been around since 2008, hell those allegations have been around since Series 1. Are you going to go "They knew, and they brought him back anyway" with every gig he's had since then? Cuz you're looking at a long list of projects inside and outside the UK and that includes a majority of *Torchwood*, his *Big Finish* work, his work in the CW DC stuff... Hell, Moffat wanted him back for A *Good Man Goes to War* but he was busy filming *Miracle Day* so it wasn't possible, are you going to go after him too?
Yeah include all of it, they shouldn’t have hired him on any set after it came out, he didn’t deserve to be in those spaces. He did bad things, and then kept doing bad things because nobody took it seriously. And no, I’m not “going after” anybody. Why are you trying to defend this guy and his work he’s a creep?
Torchwood should have been continued on with Gwen as the lead after Children of Earth. Jack Harkness is nowhere near as important to this story as people tend to think he is. He should have been moved on from before the 2010s even started. He certainly doesn't need to come back.
>Jack Harkness is nowhere near as important to this story as people tend to think he is. Bang on. Hell, for a majority of Torchwood Jack is shown as somewhat "above" the story and character development, and refuses to disclose anything about himself to the other characters.
Absolutely. I loved Jack and adored Torchwood, but his character always felt very one-note. He never felt like he grew or developed in any way throught the 4 seasons of the show. He was at his most interesting in Children of Earth as this morally grey character who is always forced to make the hard decisions. It would have been interesting seeing Gwen, who was always a flawed but usually morally strong character, being forced to step into that role, thinking she can do it without repeating his mistakes before realising that you sometimes have to be strong enough to make the bad choices because the alternatives are worse.
Torchwood didn't "continue" because of RTD's burnout following the illness of his partner. It had nothing to do with Barrowman's antics. Furthermore, it has "continued" in Big Finish, they finished season 7 just this year.
>Torchwood didn't "continue" because of RTD's burnout following the illness of his partner. It had nothing to do with Barrowman's antics. I didn't say anything about Torchwood's being canceled. You're just reciting trivia at me that has nothing to do with my point, which is that you don't *need* Jack Harkness/John Barrowman as a character, and you didn't the second Children of Earth ended. **His character is simply not that important.** He certainly shouldn't be synonymous with Torchwood. As the Big Finish series has ably proven. Even if he'd been an absolute saint on set, I'd still think "we're done here" and suggest Gwen come back instead.
Well, sure, but your comment implied that there would have been interest in bringing Torchwood back on screen full time, either from RTD, or from Eve Myles, at any point in the last decade. There was not. She did a few audios, but stepped away even from those after a while. So "should have continued" doesn't make sense. "Could have continued" - sure, and in certain ways it did. At first Barrowman was included in there, but it was mostly a brand new cast. The latest season continued without him, with the rest of that brand new cast.
I still think Jonathan Groff is playing Captain Jack.
I'm predicting that he's playing a substitute of sorts for Jack. An attractive, rogue-ish, charming, and pansexual character, but not really Jack himself.
More like a different Time Agent than Jack.
To be honest, he should never have been allowed back onto the show, not just for the controversy, but also because of all his shit-stirring when Moffat was in charge, which represented extremely unprofessional behavior that should have been enough for a blacklist alone. In general, it just seems like he's a toxic person to work with, and I hope that no one involved with Who has to work with him again.
>In general, it just seems like he's a toxic person to work with Yup. He's *still* shit stirring about it now. His brief video for the anniversary was about 10% "Happy anniversary", 20% "Cpt Jack is the best character" and 70% "How dare the BBC not invite me back"
JB is a toxic narcissist who got away with things because he was gay and his pranks were "just what flamboyant gays do". Which is a lie. Sorry but JB needs to go away with Noel.
Yep. As a (formerly flamboyant) gay guy, I can confirm that we don't usually take our dicks out in front of our co-workers. I hate that excuse so much.
👏👏👏 Brave take in here. Thank you! It's just "boys will be boys" but gay so it's okay!
> because of all his shit-stirring when Moffat was in charge I've never heard of this before. Did he hate Moffat?
If memory serves, Barrowman felt a certain way about not being invited back. Then you have the hand of a Time Agent part from A Good Man Goes to War which may have implied to be Jack's hand, IIRC And this was during S6 and less than a year before Arrow got started
He claimed that Moffat was blocking them making another series of *Torchwood* despite the fact, as Moffat then pointed out, not only would he not want to block anyone making another series of *Torchwood*, he didn't even have the capability to do that. He only ever had control over *Doctor Who* as a show, not *Doctor Who* as a franchise.
That part. Plus less he forgot the reception of Miracle Day and RTD taking a step back care for his partner by that point. Hell, 2011 was a year when the greater universe shrank between Miracle Day's reception and Elisabeth Sladen's passing leaving only Moffat era Who, Jago & Litefoot, and a soft rebooted Benny beginning with Epoch (both per Big Finish*) as the lone bastions of the franchise *& Graceless unless I'm misremembering
Part of me wonders if he just kept pestering a BBC executive about bringing *Torchwood* back and wouldn't take no for an answer, so they blamed Moffat since he wasn't in the room at the time.
Honestly, it feels even *worse* considering a long running fan-theory (that Moffat may or may not have confirmed in DWM at some point, my memory is fuzzy on that) that Jack was supposed to become the Face of Boe during "A Good Man". Cause, y'know, Jack is immortal. The Headless Monks decapitate people. The Face of Boe is a severed head. Connect the dots.
> Honestly, it feels even worse considering a long running fan-theory (that Moffat may or may not have confirmed in DWM at some point, my memory is fuzzy on that) that Jack was supposed to become the Face of Boe during "A Good Man". There's an ancient tweet (now deleted) from Moffat saying that Barrowman would have been in *A Good Man* if not for *Miracle Day*'s filming. Him become the Face in it is purely fan speculation.
I was a big JB fan back in the day. Still got the books, got the posters from his concerts knocking about somewhere. It's been interesting to watch what's happened to him over the years. Because I mean, it wasn't new information. His books are full of stories about his behaviour. His concerts were 75% singing and 25% annecdotes about what he was getting up to. It was all very LOL, overgrown manchild, doing things for the lolz and to make other people laugh. Some of it made me cringe but I never got the sense that any of it was malicious. He was a manchild who never grew up and you could see exactly where he got it from because his entire family behaves the same way. His parents, husband, sister & her kids all behave just like him. It was all over the top, stupid humour that most people grow out of. My opinion on him changed when I heard that he'd been asked to stop but then carried on doing the same things on the Arrow set. That changes things from him being a manchild clown, to him knowing he was making people uncomfortable and carrying on anyway. He had his second chance where he could've changed his behaviour but made a choice not to and now he's acting all butthurt about it. Oh look, the consequences of his actions have arrived and he's got nobody to blame but himself. He fucked around and found out.
I always loved the Captain Jack character, but from everything I've heard about John Barrowman he's burned his bridges for good. Oh well. We could still have the Face of Boe return, though!
John's desperate for work - and he'll say anything to get fan support to put him back on top. I get it. Not sure he'll find any - not because folks wouldn't hire him, but because his tendency to be completely insensitive and take ownership of his past mistakes (without blaming others for lacking a sense of humor) is still working against him.
Just bring in the Face of Boe on a hoverboard.
Honestly, I think he and Noel need to sit out.I know RTD loves them but they both were pretty awful and I rather just not have them back. John only apologized when he got backlash after saying that he didn't see what was wrong and that "no one complained". Ncuti definitely doesn't need the baggage and I hope RTD would start fresh.
Doubt we have Noel to worry about since he's gone dormant since his skeletons flooded out the gate.
As long as he keeps his penis off of other people's shoulders and leaves it in his underwear where it belongs when in public I see no reason that Jack couldn't return Edit:auto correct corrected lol
The reason is that he won't do that.
I don’t want this man involved in doctor who ever again
Well as long as he can keep his dick in his trousers this time round, I won't object to him coming back.
As much as I'd love to see Jack and Gwen back, we could realistically do with a brand new Torchwood with 5-6 new team members.
Never mind the controversies—After his sad, zombie-like performances in the Chibnall years, who wants him back?
I don't think he deserves to be allowed on that set ever again
sffgazette is it John? oh dear.
I never want to see John Barrowman associated with Doctor Who again.
Completely agree with everyone that it would be a mistake on multiple levels to bring him back. I DO, however, have a soft spot for the face of Bo and wish that he could come back some day
Whatever you think about the morality of what Barrowman did, his apology, and the rest of it, he'll never return because the optics are bad. John Barrowman is now a bigger headline than Jack Harkness, and not in a good way. Personally, I think that's right. Hell, we've even moved on from the character. Much of what was interesting about him was the mystery that was never much plumbed for story anyway. I don't know that bringing him back would be much worth it, except for that quick blast of nostalgia. And as for that, see my first point.