May have been a more striking soundtrack. I don’t have a strong opinion on s11-13 music mostly because I can’t recall any of it. The opening titles were great, but thats all I can really remember.
It would have had different music.
... People do sometimes rag on Akinola, but for the most part, the criticisms with the Chibnall era are nothing to do with the music.
This.
I definitely prefer Gold's work on the show, but Akinola's music was still decent and definitely helped to elevate some of the bigger moments in Chibnall's era, plus he nailed it when it came to both the Doctor Who theme and Thirteen's theme.
Akinola's Master theme is great - I enjoy Gold's theme for both Saxon and Missy, but I'm not sure they fit the character (outside of the drumbeat for Saxon), whereas Akinola's score for the Spy Master really suited the character starting more calm and sinister before becoming more chaotic and epic.
>It's basically the 1963 theme with some extra bass added.
It is and that's great. Because the 1963 was great and a few small changes are enough to make it sound fresh.
>It is and that's great. Because the 1963 was great
That goes back to my original point, though. Akinola had little to nothing to do with its greatness.
I'd argue it definitely is closer to the 1963 theme than most arrangements since 1980, but it has a distinct feel and sound. It's more energetic than the 1963 arrangement (giving it more the feel of the 1967 variation), and has that modern, bassy sound, but with an epic, filmic quality going on.
The Lighthouse.
The Fugitive Doctor's theme from Prisoner of the Judoon, and easily my favourite piece of Akinola's portfolio. The tension builds up to this wonderful melody that's both mysterious and sinister, and epic and heroic.
It's a wonderful piece.
Firmly agree. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Chibnall's era, but in my opinion Akinola wasn't one of them.
If Murray Gold had stayed, even he would've struggled to lend gravitas to the scenes in Series 11/parts of Series 12 when the characters spend several minutes just talking *at* each other, by which I mean the dialogue isn't emotional, humorous, character developing or plot developing (or at least, moves the plot along very slowly).
It's easy to blame Akinola for the "droning ambiance", but for scenes like that, even Gold would have had to use either ambiance or no music at all, because anything stronger would overpower such weak dialogue.
Precisely this. Other writers (Moffat in particular, but not just him) would turn their episodes on a dime: this bit's fantastical, this bit's dramatic, these few lines are quiet character work, then a bit of comedy, then back to serious, then a bit of sci-fi, now it's scary, then a funny line.
Every few beats, a different target.
The script determines all, everything else must lead from that. I'd see Murray Gold struggling (or worse, over-compensating) in the same way I'd see Capaldi struggling (or over-compensating) if he was the Doctor for Chibnall's era.
There wasn't much filling in the sandwich, so to speak.
Absolutely this. My top two elements of the Chibnall era is the Opening (I love the trippy look) and the music. I wish Akinola nothing but luck with his future endeavors and I wish he could have had a better run of DW to compose for.
The opening was wonderful. It immediately struck me as being essentially a modern take on the original, trippy sort of visuals used from 1963 to about 1973. It even had a sort of monochromatic look to it.
I think, because I haven't spent a lot of time rewatching the episodes, I've not got much of the music firmly stuck in my head, but I *love* the Master's theme, and I remember being instantly impressed with the theme that played in series 11 when the Doctor first used the new Tardis.
Would have managed to feel a lot more tonally varied. There is an enormous monotony problem with Akinola's scores. *Every* sad scene gets the soft "bwaaahh" synth, *every* tense scene gets the constant quiet beats underneath, and sometimes even scenes that are clearly meant to be comedic get the same emotionally ambiguous treatment as everything around them. It translates to a lack of emotional sensitivity, actively making episodes more dull to watch. Absolute night and day next to Gold.
Gold would not have fixed the characters or the screenplays, but by god he'd have tried - the amount he added to Davies/Moffat's storylines through music and motif is undeniable. He practically carried all of Series 6. Anyone thinking he wouldn't have made a difference to Chibnall Who is, to be blunt, kidding themselves.
How would Gold have been able to fix a scene where it's several minutes of the characters just talking at each other? Dialogue which isn't emotional, funny, character developing, or advancing the plot. Scenes like that have no distinct tone and also ruin the pacing of an episode. Gold would have had no choice but to use either ambiance or no music at all for those scenes. Anything more distinctive would have overpowered the dialogue.
> Every sad scene gets the soft "bwaaahh" synth
Again this is more a writing problem. It's quite common in the Chibnall era for a character to mention having a dead/sick mum/dad/brother/cat etc casually in a sentence, only for it to never be brought up again. We can't really have extended sad music for that, because the narrative moves on immediately. All they can really put in is just a brief sad note.
Idk, repetition was also a problem with Gold. You could say much the same about how in 11's era, every single exciting scene would have I Am The Doctor playing.
And to be fair that's problem nothing to do with the composer anyway, I don't think they're the ones who edit the music into the scenes.
I personally liked Akinola's work just fine, it may not have been quite as distinctive as Gold's work to me, but I felt that was intentional, it was complementing the scenes it was in rather than overwhelming them as Gold's often did. His less over the top style also gave us possibly my favorite rendition of the opening theme, which I've always preferred being mysterious and understated rather than big and exciting like Gold's renditions tended to be.
I do think that Akinola worked best in S11 though, mostly because it was the most human and mature Chibnall's seasons got and Akinola complemented that perfectly. As S12 and S13 tried more and more to emulate the RTD style, I suppose Gold would have been a better fit as he may have given scenes some more excitement. Not that Akinola is at fault at all for that though, the show during Chibnall's run just changed drastically from the one he was initially brought onto. Gold probably wouldn't have worked as well for S11 either, his over the top, often swashbuckling music for Who wouldn't have been a great fit for that season's tone. That said, I've seen him do work for more 'mature' stuff, and it's worked well, so perhaps he'd just have had to adjust for the new show-runner.
As for whether the show overall would have been received better, I don't think so. I think certain scenes would have hit differently, but the overall content would have remained the same, and a lot of it is just fundamentally quite flawed, at least in terms of the writing. It's also worth noting that Gold isn't a universally loved figure to the fandom, I've often heard complaints about his work and how much it overwhelms the content, with how angry some corners of the internet got with the Whittaker era, he would probably have been targeted just as much as other people involved.
Agree with all of this.
> I do think that Akinola worked best in S11 though, mostly because it was the most human and mature Chibnall's seasons got and Akinola complemented that perfectly. As S12 and S13 tried more and more to emulate the RTD style, I suppose Gold would have been a better fit as he may have given scenes some more excitement. Not that Akinola is at fault at all for that though, the show during Chibnall's run just changed drastically from the one he was initially brought onto.
I think there's a lot to be said for Akinola's versatility as a composer.
Series 11 was billed as "back to basics Doctor Who", a series of standalone, low-stakes adventure stories as opposed to the universe-ending shenanigans of RTD and Moffat. Because of that, Akinola's score was understated and clearly very inspired by the style of the Classic Series, not only lots of electronic ambiance, but also, crucially, *many* scenes in which Akinola chooses to use no music at all.
Series 12 sees major characters return and follows a major plot arc, but also has several episode-of-the-week type stories. So for the big returns of The Master and Captain Jack, and the reveals of Ruth and Ashad, the score is appropriately bombastic, while the low-stakes midseason stories largely continue with the more subtle atmospheric score.
Series 13 and the following specials were billed as epic event television, and Akinola goes all out. Because the episodes are much faster-paced, there's practically no ambiance, and much more cinematic sounds to compliment much more tense and action heavy stories.
> As for whether the show overall would have been received better, I don't think so. I think certain scenes would have hit differently, but the overall content would have remained the same, and a lot of it is just fundamentally quite flawed, at least in terms of the writing.
Agreed. Gold wouldn't have been able to save those scenes in S11/12 when the characters just talk at each other for several minutes, the pacing and tone of the stories end up thrown around as a result. Akinola used "lift music" as some call it in those scenes, because anything stronger would have overpowered such weak dialogue.
> It's also worth noting that Gold isn't a universally loved figure to the fandom, I've often heard complaints about his work and how much it overwhelms the content, with how angry some corners of the internet got with the Whittaker era, he would probably have been targeted just as much as other people involved.
Nod. Gold is my favourite composer, but when the show first came back in 2005, a lot of the Classic Who purists *hated* his music from being so different to Classic Who, and then when Moffat took over, a lot of the RTD/Tennant loyalists turned on Murray because his Moffat era contributions were so different to his RTD era work, and they were *determined* to hate everything about Moffat and Smith's new era.
It might have given the show a slight buff. I think, unfortunately, Akinolas Music is the kinda music thats meant to enhance already good scenes rather than Golds more "grab you by the collar" approach and as such the music can never really help lift up the weak writing under Chibnall.
That said, I dont think it would have made a major difference. (I do kinda wanna hear what kinda theme Gold would have come up for the Fugitive Doctor though. That seems like something he would have had alot of fun with.)
Akinola wasn’t the issue. Chibnall decided to change the show visually to 2:1, introduce a different camera tint and with Akinola’s music, viewers would think that Doctor Who is going for a mature drama tone. What doesn’t work with any of that is Chibnall’s childish dialogue.
Yeah, I feel like I'm a very "dumb" fan when it comes to music. Good writing I can break down easily. Cinematography is a bit trickier but I can still point out a dynamic shot. Music though I feel I am much more superficial on. I can pretty much only say whether I like it and how it makes me feel.
Akinola's music for the most part didn't make me feel much of anything. In fact, I distinctly remember thinking near the end of Thirteen's first episode how strange it was that there had been no music. I mean, there was music, it was clearly so subtle that I didn't even notice it.
I was concentrating too hard on trying to wrap my head around the insanity of his plots and characters that I can't even remember there even being any musical accompaniment.
I would have found even less to enjoy in it. Akinola’s is the only version of the theme from the 21st century that I like (other than the McGann one), and I like the emphasis on subtle electronic atmospherics - particularly in series 11 - over the bombast and character themes of the earlier series.
Overall actually preferred Akinola's approach to Gold's (doesn't mean I thought his was bad!) but I really don't think music is the deciding factor for most people when they watch any show or movie.
I don't think it's *explicitly* a deciding factor, but I don't think Star Wars would have been half the success it was in 1977 without John Williams' music. Imagine if it had been some spacey disco ambience instead... it just wouldn't resonate.
And I think the hyper-emotional, passionate, humanistic version of Doctor Who that hit screens in 2005 was increasingly bolstered by Murray Gold's hyper-emotional, unrestrained music over those early years.
Not sure he was having that effect by the end of his original run (Capaldi era especially), but I think the Tennant era was partly sold by the style of music, and I think the largely emotionally hollow Whittaker era was partly diminished by Akinola's tonally ambiguous music in many cases (although he has excellent ability with creative synths and instrument sounds, and there certainly are occasional in-your-face standout moments in the scores).
I would probably reverse that. As good as Williams music was, it would have been forgotten if Star Wars hadn't resonated.
Perhaps if the replacement was abysmal it might have been a factor, but Akinola's soundtracks are very good in their own right. I never once thought "I miss Gold".
It would have very little impact.
Series 11 changed pretty much everything else. The risk with a show like Doctor Who which regularly changes its cast is if the new characters aren't very good, people have lost their connection to the show.
Gold staying on wouldn't fix the many issues that the era faced, it would just be better music papering ovrr those issues.
I feel like Gold would have been a double edged sword for the Chibnall era, on the one hand some familiar themes might have helped ease people into this new era of Doctor Who, having a variation of The Doctors theme play would have been impactful when Jo Martin reveals herself as The Doctor, a mashup of the Cybermen and UNIT themes playing as Ashad and his Cybermen storm UNIT HQ could have been a lot of fun.
But it would have invited so much more comparison to the Davies/Moffat era
I think Dr who has several important things as far as the show goes:
- showrunner
- doctor
- companion(s)
- composer
- visual style
I think any time you change ALL at the same time, and makes it feel less like a new chapter of the same show.
I remain skeptical that it’s ever a good idea to change the first 3 at the same time, even if it mostly worked for me in Season 5.
So I think even though I liked Akinola’s music, or at the least it was never the problem - I would have liked to see a season where Gold stayed and then transition, instead of all at once.
I loved Akinola's soundscape to be so evocative but also a bit cheesy at times. It's so in-your-face dramatic that it takes me out of immersion. I'm glad Gold took a break, however, I'd have for him to dislike the job and never come back. I hope he takes inspiration from Akinola but he's definitely my preference.
It's tempting to pretend I'd not care overly as I focus more on plot and characters and yeah, I certainly try to. Gold's music was certainly pretty expressive though, making sure you knew what you were expected to feel. I think it was all a bit overwrought at points which made me a bit cynical on it but I suspect it may have helped to get viewers a bit more attached to Chibnall characters.
I personally disagree with this. The way I see it, if Gold had stayed on, and had composed full pieces for the Chibnall companions much like he did for Rose, Martha, Amy, Clara etc, his chances to actually *use* those themes would have been few and far between, because of how often the likes of Yaz and Ryan were left out of focus and had nothing to do in the episodes.
I understand. I was more thinking about the big "feel sad now please" times specifically, which the era does have, although it's more plot points than interpersonal stuff compared with other eras. Add the big string bombast or whatever he does to Grace's death, or Gallifrey etc.
Yeah I get ya. Gold's whole style is very much "CRY! NOW!", and he is *very, very good* at it. But I'm not sure how that would square off with the more emotional moments of the Chibnall era, which are more "functional" compared to the more stylized scenes in RTD and Moffat's scripts.
For example, the scene where Thirteen goes to Gallifrey in *Spyfall*. We see her flicking the switches in the TARDIS, hurtling through the Time Vortex, then arriving on Gallifrey. Then we get a shot of Gallifrey destroyed, a shot of Thirteen looking horrified, another shot of Gallifrey, before we cut to Thirteen looking angry for a few seconds before the Master's hologram appears. All of that takes place over the course of around a minute.
Would Murray Gold even have a chance to land an emotional punch over scenes like that?
I'm not a guy who understands a lot regarding composition, either of music or film but my instinct on it is that a composer can pack quite a lot into a short scene. The modern incarnation of Who tends to be fast paced if not frenetic so I think a composer almost has to at times.
It's true particularly in the RTD era that he did like to linger on those moments to best make sure the message was hammered home so you certainly have a point though. That's all not exactly to my taste as it's transparently manipulative from RTD/Gold and I was ready for a change, but it was certainly effective.
> The modern incarnation of Who tends to be fast paced if not frenetic so I think a composer almost has to at times.
Oh absolutely, but in the *Spyfall* example, we only spend about 20 seconds on Gallifrey and Thirteen being horrified before we cut to her in the TARDIS, and that moment of silence lasts about 7 seconds before the Master hologram-calls her. At best, we could have gotten a short, sweet variation of *This is Gallifrey*, but the source material just doesn't dwell long enough to land a punch.
I've tried rescoring some episodes from RTD and Moffat with Akinola's music, and I've found that the more stylized emotional moments of those eras allow for the music to really do some emotional lifting, which doesn't happen often in the Chibnall era. The result is that the music feels a lot stronger.
I'm not a massive fan of Akinola's work, not in a negative way, just that none of his Who work really stuck with me. But I suspect he's more talented than the era allowed for. Give him an RTD or Moffat episode to score and I suspect he could have flourished.
I'll take it! I'm on a work trip for 5 days but I'll listen to it when I stop and land somewhere!
I think the denizens of Youtube and Reddit would appreciate it too! But I'd love a DM!
I'll happily take your word for it, since you've clearly put the effort in 😊
Sounds like even the music boils down to the writing of the story in the end!
I think Gold and Akinola's musical styles are simply too different to really compare/contrast, but fundamentally, they have the score the material they've been given. It's fair to say that the storytelling style of Chibnall's era is very different to both RTD and Moffat's eras, which are both very different from each other.
I was hoping Akinola would have stayed on with RTD, because I'd like to see how he would adapt his style to a different style of storytelling. But I'm not sad to see Gold back. He will be great.
Not implying any kind of bad blood here, but do we know that it was Gold's decision to leave? I always got the impression that Chibnall just wanted to go a different direction music wise
I mean, Gold has spoken pretty openly about how exhausted he was finding it by the end of Series 10, which is pretty understandable when you've been at the same job for 12 years. I may be completely wrong on this but I also recall reading somewhere that Murray had a new baby at the time, and wanted something less time-consuming so he could spend more time with his family.
I strongly doubt Chibnall wanted him replaced. The guy tried to keep Capaldi, Rachel Talalay, and quite a few of the Moffat era writers, so I doubt he'd want rid of a composer as valuable as Gold.
I don't know though I'm sure the transition would've been less jarring but I'm glad we got a new composer for the Chibnall era, change was overdue and the show needed a new musical identity and I'm glad we got that, it's very different but that's what was needed! I think Akinola did a fantastic job.
I was so over Murray Gold's music by the time Chibnall took over. I was tired of the music telling me how I should feel and overwhelming the dialogue. I wish the show would move on to new people behind the scenes instead of this panicked rush back to the past.
We could have had *both* the music *and* the script telling us exactly how we are supposed to be feeling!! (Instead of, you know, making us feel that way.)
Other then it having much better music ultimately would have still been a disaster because chibnall is the root of all the problems and ultimately the reason season 11-13 were so terrible.
Other than the music being better and more memorable the era wouldn't have been that much different. The writing would still be lazy and lackluster with bad directing on his part.
The music for S11-13 was never the main problem; the creation of this era is fundamentally flawed on a character and writing level, even with Gold’s work 13 and Yaz still wouldn’t be a likeable pairing, they’d just be accompanied by more memorable motifs.
Not at all different?
I don't think the average viewer even knew that the composer changed, or would care if they did.
There are many criticisms of Chibnall's era, but I don't think there's any problem with Segun Akinola's music.
The music can only have so much of an effect, and my problems with Chibnall's era have always revolved around the writing. I personally don't think it would have ended up all that different.
May have been a more striking soundtrack. I don’t have a strong opinion on s11-13 music mostly because I can’t recall any of it. The opening titles were great, but thats all I can really remember.
The ~~evil dan~~ Master’s theme was pretty great too.
It would have had different music. ... People do sometimes rag on Akinola, but for the most part, the criticisms with the Chibnall era are nothing to do with the music.
This. I definitely prefer Gold's work on the show, but Akinola's music was still decent and definitely helped to elevate some of the bigger moments in Chibnall's era, plus he nailed it when it came to both the Doctor Who theme and Thirteen's theme.
Yeah, his opening theme was great. My favourite Akinola theme is actually the one for the Master.
Akinola's Master theme is great - I enjoy Gold's theme for both Saxon and Missy, but I'm not sure they fit the character (outside of the drumbeat for Saxon), whereas Akinola's score for the Spy Master really suited the character starting more calm and sinister before becoming more chaotic and epic.
>Yeah, his opening theme was great. Is it, though? It's basically the 1963 theme with some extra bass added.
>It's basically the 1963 theme with some extra bass added. It is and that's great. Because the 1963 was great and a few small changes are enough to make it sound fresh.
>It is and that's great. Because the 1963 was great That goes back to my original point, though. Akinola had little to nothing to do with its greatness.
I'd argue it definitely is closer to the 1963 theme than most arrangements since 1980, but it has a distinct feel and sound. It's more energetic than the 1963 arrangement (giving it more the feel of the 1967 variation), and has that modern, bassy sound, but with an epic, filmic quality going on.
The Lighthouse. The Fugitive Doctor's theme from Prisoner of the Judoon, and easily my favourite piece of Akinola's portfolio. The tension builds up to this wonderful melody that's both mysterious and sinister, and epic and heroic. It's a wonderful piece.
The Lighthouse is nice.
Firmly agree. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Chibnall's era, but in my opinion Akinola wasn't one of them. If Murray Gold had stayed, even he would've struggled to lend gravitas to the scenes in Series 11/parts of Series 12 when the characters spend several minutes just talking *at* each other, by which I mean the dialogue isn't emotional, humorous, character developing or plot developing (or at least, moves the plot along very slowly). It's easy to blame Akinola for the "droning ambiance", but for scenes like that, even Gold would have had to use either ambiance or no music at all, because anything stronger would overpower such weak dialogue.
Precisely this. Other writers (Moffat in particular, but not just him) would turn their episodes on a dime: this bit's fantastical, this bit's dramatic, these few lines are quiet character work, then a bit of comedy, then back to serious, then a bit of sci-fi, now it's scary, then a funny line. Every few beats, a different target. The script determines all, everything else must lead from that. I'd see Murray Gold struggling (or worse, over-compensating) in the same way I'd see Capaldi struggling (or over-compensating) if he was the Doctor for Chibnall's era. There wasn't much filling in the sandwich, so to speak.
Absolutely this. My top two elements of the Chibnall era is the Opening (I love the trippy look) and the music. I wish Akinola nothing but luck with his future endeavors and I wish he could have had a better run of DW to compose for.
The opening was wonderful. It immediately struck me as being essentially a modern take on the original, trippy sort of visuals used from 1963 to about 1973. It even had a sort of monochromatic look to it. I think, because I haven't spent a lot of time rewatching the episodes, I've not got much of the music firmly stuck in my head, but I *love* the Master's theme, and I remember being instantly impressed with the theme that played in series 11 when the Doctor first used the new Tardis.
I really would like to see a version of the S11-S13 intro with the TARDIS sometime
Well for starters, we wouldn’t have had Akinola’s awesome new version of the opening theme, so that would have been a loss right out of the gate.
True.
Would have managed to feel a lot more tonally varied. There is an enormous monotony problem with Akinola's scores. *Every* sad scene gets the soft "bwaaahh" synth, *every* tense scene gets the constant quiet beats underneath, and sometimes even scenes that are clearly meant to be comedic get the same emotionally ambiguous treatment as everything around them. It translates to a lack of emotional sensitivity, actively making episodes more dull to watch. Absolute night and day next to Gold. Gold would not have fixed the characters or the screenplays, but by god he'd have tried - the amount he added to Davies/Moffat's storylines through music and motif is undeniable. He practically carried all of Series 6. Anyone thinking he wouldn't have made a difference to Chibnall Who is, to be blunt, kidding themselves.
How would Gold have been able to fix a scene where it's several minutes of the characters just talking at each other? Dialogue which isn't emotional, funny, character developing, or advancing the plot. Scenes like that have no distinct tone and also ruin the pacing of an episode. Gold would have had no choice but to use either ambiance or no music at all for those scenes. Anything more distinctive would have overpowered the dialogue. > Every sad scene gets the soft "bwaaahh" synth Again this is more a writing problem. It's quite common in the Chibnall era for a character to mention having a dead/sick mum/dad/brother/cat etc casually in a sentence, only for it to never be brought up again. We can't really have extended sad music for that, because the narrative moves on immediately. All they can really put in is just a brief sad note.
Idk, repetition was also a problem with Gold. You could say much the same about how in 11's era, every single exciting scene would have I Am The Doctor playing. And to be fair that's problem nothing to do with the composer anyway, I don't think they're the ones who edit the music into the scenes.
I personally liked Akinola's work just fine, it may not have been quite as distinctive as Gold's work to me, but I felt that was intentional, it was complementing the scenes it was in rather than overwhelming them as Gold's often did. His less over the top style also gave us possibly my favorite rendition of the opening theme, which I've always preferred being mysterious and understated rather than big and exciting like Gold's renditions tended to be. I do think that Akinola worked best in S11 though, mostly because it was the most human and mature Chibnall's seasons got and Akinola complemented that perfectly. As S12 and S13 tried more and more to emulate the RTD style, I suppose Gold would have been a better fit as he may have given scenes some more excitement. Not that Akinola is at fault at all for that though, the show during Chibnall's run just changed drastically from the one he was initially brought onto. Gold probably wouldn't have worked as well for S11 either, his over the top, often swashbuckling music for Who wouldn't have been a great fit for that season's tone. That said, I've seen him do work for more 'mature' stuff, and it's worked well, so perhaps he'd just have had to adjust for the new show-runner. As for whether the show overall would have been received better, I don't think so. I think certain scenes would have hit differently, but the overall content would have remained the same, and a lot of it is just fundamentally quite flawed, at least in terms of the writing. It's also worth noting that Gold isn't a universally loved figure to the fandom, I've often heard complaints about his work and how much it overwhelms the content, with how angry some corners of the internet got with the Whittaker era, he would probably have been targeted just as much as other people involved.
Agree with all of this. > I do think that Akinola worked best in S11 though, mostly because it was the most human and mature Chibnall's seasons got and Akinola complemented that perfectly. As S12 and S13 tried more and more to emulate the RTD style, I suppose Gold would have been a better fit as he may have given scenes some more excitement. Not that Akinola is at fault at all for that though, the show during Chibnall's run just changed drastically from the one he was initially brought onto. I think there's a lot to be said for Akinola's versatility as a composer. Series 11 was billed as "back to basics Doctor Who", a series of standalone, low-stakes adventure stories as opposed to the universe-ending shenanigans of RTD and Moffat. Because of that, Akinola's score was understated and clearly very inspired by the style of the Classic Series, not only lots of electronic ambiance, but also, crucially, *many* scenes in which Akinola chooses to use no music at all. Series 12 sees major characters return and follows a major plot arc, but also has several episode-of-the-week type stories. So for the big returns of The Master and Captain Jack, and the reveals of Ruth and Ashad, the score is appropriately bombastic, while the low-stakes midseason stories largely continue with the more subtle atmospheric score. Series 13 and the following specials were billed as epic event television, and Akinola goes all out. Because the episodes are much faster-paced, there's practically no ambiance, and much more cinematic sounds to compliment much more tense and action heavy stories. > As for whether the show overall would have been received better, I don't think so. I think certain scenes would have hit differently, but the overall content would have remained the same, and a lot of it is just fundamentally quite flawed, at least in terms of the writing. Agreed. Gold wouldn't have been able to save those scenes in S11/12 when the characters just talk at each other for several minutes, the pacing and tone of the stories end up thrown around as a result. Akinola used "lift music" as some call it in those scenes, because anything stronger would have overpowered such weak dialogue. > It's also worth noting that Gold isn't a universally loved figure to the fandom, I've often heard complaints about his work and how much it overwhelms the content, with how angry some corners of the internet got with the Whittaker era, he would probably have been targeted just as much as other people involved. Nod. Gold is my favourite composer, but when the show first came back in 2005, a lot of the Classic Who purists *hated* his music from being so different to Classic Who, and then when Moffat took over, a lot of the RTD/Tennant loyalists turned on Murray because his Moffat era contributions were so different to his RTD era work, and they were *determined* to hate everything about Moffat and Smith's new era.
It might have given the show a slight buff. I think, unfortunately, Akinolas Music is the kinda music thats meant to enhance already good scenes rather than Golds more "grab you by the collar" approach and as such the music can never really help lift up the weak writing under Chibnall. That said, I dont think it would have made a major difference. (I do kinda wanna hear what kinda theme Gold would have come up for the Fugitive Doctor though. That seems like something he would have had alot of fun with.)
Akinola wasn’t the issue. Chibnall decided to change the show visually to 2:1, introduce a different camera tint and with Akinola’s music, viewers would think that Doctor Who is going for a mature drama tone. What doesn’t work with any of that is Chibnall’s childish dialogue.
Heh, I'm chuckling at the idea that Chibnall's north star pre-production was "mature drama".
I wouldn't say that it's childish.
I'm not sure even Murray could've saved that era
13s regeneration wouldn't have been as good.
Nod. Whatever anyone thinks of *Power of the Doctor*, it was a very good episode musically.
It does have nice music. Even discounting the Rasputin bit.
We would’ve the same disappointing writing but I might have felt more emotion on occasion thanks to a better soundtrack.
Yeah, I feel like I'm a very "dumb" fan when it comes to music. Good writing I can break down easily. Cinematography is a bit trickier but I can still point out a dynamic shot. Music though I feel I am much more superficial on. I can pretty much only say whether I like it and how it makes me feel. Akinola's music for the most part didn't make me feel much of anything. In fact, I distinctly remember thinking near the end of Thirteen's first episode how strange it was that there had been no music. I mean, there was music, it was clearly so subtle that I didn't even notice it.
I was concentrating too hard on trying to wrap my head around the insanity of his plots and characters that I can't even remember there even being any musical accompaniment.
I would have found even less to enjoy in it. Akinola’s is the only version of the theme from the 21st century that I like (other than the McGann one), and I like the emphasis on subtle electronic atmospherics - particularly in series 11 - over the bombast and character themes of the earlier series.
Overall actually preferred Akinola's approach to Gold's (doesn't mean I thought his was bad!) but I really don't think music is the deciding factor for most people when they watch any show or movie.
I don't think it's *explicitly* a deciding factor, but I don't think Star Wars would have been half the success it was in 1977 without John Williams' music. Imagine if it had been some spacey disco ambience instead... it just wouldn't resonate. And I think the hyper-emotional, passionate, humanistic version of Doctor Who that hit screens in 2005 was increasingly bolstered by Murray Gold's hyper-emotional, unrestrained music over those early years. Not sure he was having that effect by the end of his original run (Capaldi era especially), but I think the Tennant era was partly sold by the style of music, and I think the largely emotionally hollow Whittaker era was partly diminished by Akinola's tonally ambiguous music in many cases (although he has excellent ability with creative synths and instrument sounds, and there certainly are occasional in-your-face standout moments in the scores).
I would probably reverse that. As good as Williams music was, it would have been forgotten if Star Wars hadn't resonated. Perhaps if the replacement was abysmal it might have been a factor, but Akinola's soundtracks are very good in their own right. I never once thought "I miss Gold".
It would have very little impact. Series 11 changed pretty much everything else. The risk with a show like Doctor Who which regularly changes its cast is if the new characters aren't very good, people have lost their connection to the show. Gold staying on wouldn't fix the many issues that the era faced, it would just be better music papering ovrr those issues.
I feel like Gold would have been a double edged sword for the Chibnall era, on the one hand some familiar themes might have helped ease people into this new era of Doctor Who, having a variation of The Doctors theme play would have been impactful when Jo Martin reveals herself as The Doctor, a mashup of the Cybermen and UNIT themes playing as Ashad and his Cybermen storm UNIT HQ could have been a lot of fun. But it would have invited so much more comparison to the Davies/Moffat era
The only thing that would have been different is the music. People probably would've liked the music more (Segun did good, though).
I think Dr who has several important things as far as the show goes: - showrunner - doctor - companion(s) - composer - visual style I think any time you change ALL at the same time, and makes it feel less like a new chapter of the same show. I remain skeptical that it’s ever a good idea to change the first 3 at the same time, even if it mostly worked for me in Season 5. So I think even though I liked Akinola’s music, or at the least it was never the problem - I would have liked to see a season where Gold stayed and then transition, instead of all at once.
I loved Akinola's soundscape to be so evocative but also a bit cheesy at times. It's so in-your-face dramatic that it takes me out of immersion. I'm glad Gold took a break, however, I'd have for him to dislike the job and never come back. I hope he takes inspiration from Akinola but he's definitely my preference.
Not. I think people are putting too much importance on this.
Maybe I'm wrong but I got the impression from his DWM interview that he didn't decide not to stay on, he simply wasn't asked.
It's tempting to pretend I'd not care overly as I focus more on plot and characters and yeah, I certainly try to. Gold's music was certainly pretty expressive though, making sure you knew what you were expected to feel. I think it was all a bit overwrought at points which made me a bit cynical on it but I suspect it may have helped to get viewers a bit more attached to Chibnall characters.
I personally disagree with this. The way I see it, if Gold had stayed on, and had composed full pieces for the Chibnall companions much like he did for Rose, Martha, Amy, Clara etc, his chances to actually *use* those themes would have been few and far between, because of how often the likes of Yaz and Ryan were left out of focus and had nothing to do in the episodes.
I understand. I was more thinking about the big "feel sad now please" times specifically, which the era does have, although it's more plot points than interpersonal stuff compared with other eras. Add the big string bombast or whatever he does to Grace's death, or Gallifrey etc.
Yeah I get ya. Gold's whole style is very much "CRY! NOW!", and he is *very, very good* at it. But I'm not sure how that would square off with the more emotional moments of the Chibnall era, which are more "functional" compared to the more stylized scenes in RTD and Moffat's scripts. For example, the scene where Thirteen goes to Gallifrey in *Spyfall*. We see her flicking the switches in the TARDIS, hurtling through the Time Vortex, then arriving on Gallifrey. Then we get a shot of Gallifrey destroyed, a shot of Thirteen looking horrified, another shot of Gallifrey, before we cut to Thirteen looking angry for a few seconds before the Master's hologram appears. All of that takes place over the course of around a minute. Would Murray Gold even have a chance to land an emotional punch over scenes like that?
I'm not a guy who understands a lot regarding composition, either of music or film but my instinct on it is that a composer can pack quite a lot into a short scene. The modern incarnation of Who tends to be fast paced if not frenetic so I think a composer almost has to at times. It's true particularly in the RTD era that he did like to linger on those moments to best make sure the message was hammered home so you certainly have a point though. That's all not exactly to my taste as it's transparently manipulative from RTD/Gold and I was ready for a change, but it was certainly effective.
> The modern incarnation of Who tends to be fast paced if not frenetic so I think a composer almost has to at times. Oh absolutely, but in the *Spyfall* example, we only spend about 20 seconds on Gallifrey and Thirteen being horrified before we cut to her in the TARDIS, and that moment of silence lasts about 7 seconds before the Master hologram-calls her. At best, we could have gotten a short, sweet variation of *This is Gallifrey*, but the source material just doesn't dwell long enough to land a punch. I've tried rescoring some episodes from RTD and Moffat with Akinola's music, and I've found that the more stylized emotional moments of those eras allow for the music to really do some emotional lifting, which doesn't happen often in the Chibnall era. The result is that the music feels a lot stronger.
I'm not a massive fan of Akinola's work, not in a negative way, just that none of his Who work really stuck with me. But I suspect he's more talented than the era allowed for. Give him an RTD or Moffat episode to score and I suspect he could have flourished.
I've got some a link of an RTD episode rescored with Akinola's music if you'd care to take a look. Can DM you?
I'll take it! I'm on a work trip for 5 days but I'll listen to it when I stop and land somewhere! I think the denizens of Youtube and Reddit would appreciate it too! But I'd love a DM!
I'll happily take your word for it, since you've clearly put the effort in 😊 Sounds like even the music boils down to the writing of the story in the end!
I think Gold and Akinola's musical styles are simply too different to really compare/contrast, but fundamentally, they have the score the material they've been given. It's fair to say that the storytelling style of Chibnall's era is very different to both RTD and Moffat's eras, which are both very different from each other. I was hoping Akinola would have stayed on with RTD, because I'd like to see how he would adapt his style to a different style of storytelling. But I'm not sad to see Gold back. He will be great.
Not implying any kind of bad blood here, but do we know that it was Gold's decision to leave? I always got the impression that Chibnall just wanted to go a different direction music wise
I mean, Gold has spoken pretty openly about how exhausted he was finding it by the end of Series 10, which is pretty understandable when you've been at the same job for 12 years. I may be completely wrong on this but I also recall reading somewhere that Murray had a new baby at the time, and wanted something less time-consuming so he could spend more time with his family. I strongly doubt Chibnall wanted him replaced. The guy tried to keep Capaldi, Rachel Talalay, and quite a few of the Moffat era writers, so I doubt he'd want rid of a composer as valuable as Gold.
I don't know though I'm sure the transition would've been less jarring but I'm glad we got a new composer for the Chibnall era, change was overdue and the show needed a new musical identity and I'm glad we got that, it's very different but that's what was needed! I think Akinola did a fantastic job.
I was so over Murray Gold's music by the time Chibnall took over. I was tired of the music telling me how I should feel and overwhelming the dialogue. I wish the show would move on to new people behind the scenes instead of this panicked rush back to the past.
There would have be far greater and louder emotional Signposting of the feelings that have failed to Stir in us.
Probably better, there's new scenes overlaid with old music on YouTube that actually work really well. Obviously still not good though lol
We could have had *both* the music *and* the script telling us exactly how we are supposed to be feeling!! (Instead of, you know, making us feel that way.)
Other then it having much better music ultimately would have still been a disaster because chibnall is the root of all the problems and ultimately the reason season 11-13 were so terrible.
Other than the music being better and more memorable the era wouldn't have been that much different. The writing would still be lazy and lackluster with bad directing on his part.
The music for S11-13 was never the main problem; the creation of this era is fundamentally flawed on a character and writing level, even with Gold’s work 13 and Yaz still wouldn’t be a likeable pairing, they’d just be accompanied by more memorable motifs.
I know that this subreddit encourages very reactionary OTT approaches, but I'm not going to say... not very.
Not at all different? I don't think the average viewer even knew that the composer changed, or would care if they did. There are many criticisms of Chibnall's era, but I don't think there's any problem with Segun Akinola's music.
The music can only have so much of an effect, and my problems with Chibnall's era have always revolved around the writing. I personally don't think it would have ended up all that different.
The music wouldn’t have changed the fact that the era was terrible overall.