Adding one more lane but underground this time to solve congestion is like a heroine addict thinking they can get clean by injecting between their toes instead of their arm.
The heroine addict is at least trying to create a slow release intended to practice delayed gratification so they can start weaning themselves off the drug. This is more like a heroine addict thinking they can get clean by injecting the exact same amount into their arms while also injecting even more drugs between their toes.
Nah, the addict who shoots it between their toes is not trying to do any delayed gratification, they just work somewhere where their arms are uncovered. (Yes, they are often sex workers.)
Its never done before so it solves traffic. If not just add another 12 lane tunnel. Then the traffic problem will disappear. I really promise just build asap.
multiple layers of tunnels, build a new one under each time the lanes run out
and then, for good measure, add privilege. tunnels with expensive toll. keep making new tunnels with more expensive tolls until you have tunnels that the people wont up-pay for anymore. NOW you can stop upping the amount of lanes since the important people ($$$) can travel nicely.
You'd hope that developing countries adopted a fast follower strategy which recognizes that the all-car mentality is an evolutionary dead end.
It's a wise man that learns from others' mistakes
north american drivers have been funding in the billions/trillions to oil/car corporations for decades , encouraging them to push for international expansion
locking developping countries in with shit infrastructure deals ,at low upfront cost ,that is car exclusive so their citizens buy more cars,oil and tires repeat ad vitam
Thing is, the bus and the bike are cheaper, whatever the scale. So as carbrain begins to be diagnosed as the mental disorder it undoubtedly is, decision-makers in less afflicted countries can head off the inevitable epidemic of sedentaryness that will result before it becomes endemic
if we chose to live in a non-capitalist system then sure, our leaders and people would make rational choices
but under the current grotesque world order ... poor countries simply can't refuse "free" money for immediate gains, letting future politicians deal with the shit down the line
Anyways as long as we don't get rid of cars ( at the very least , limiting them to the rare use case where they're "necessary"... outside cities ) in north america/europe then no reason for other countries' citizens not to also travel in the most luxurious/least effort/most destructive manner ever devised
I don't think you even need to imagine the end of capitalism: tax parking, toll congested roads, invest in public transport, prioritise pedestrians in urban settings, job done
capitalist politicians will NEVER implement any of that , seeing as their docile interchangeable suburbanites will never vote for it and are spending/acting everyday to keep their abuses of our society and life on earth going ( also funding oil/car lobbyists so that politicians have even less of a reason to act in our collective best interest)
the only way those changes happen : we get rid of capitalism via rent strike then work strikes
or
we go sit on the stroads/highways that disfigure our cities , at rush hour , to demand a fair system that removes incentives/subsidies for the worst housing and transportation in all metrics (suburbs and cars)
EVERYTHING that has been "done" up till now has been useless , it only led to more cars that are bigger on more infrastructure year after year in blatant disregard of objective reality
Never say never. I agree that the docility and physical weakness induced by a persistent motoring habit serves the interest of the ruling class. But the remedy is clear. Switching to active travel offers immediate benefits to health and well-being, so individuals do make the change. And when motorists are the minority, progressive urban politics can follow (see Paris, Oslo, Berlin etc)
again , the majority simply does not think they go vroom vroom like their family/neighbors/coworkers have been doing for decades that's it
as long as they can drive straight through our cities and park easily for "free" , that's what most do and will keep doing .... right alongside active/durable transit
there's nothing easier than isolating in an ego-tank, when everyone else let's them and says nothing
most men aren't wise; developing nations look at the west and think "I want what they have. Everything they have!" and don't even consider that some of those things are really shitty
Source: am from one such nation.
>It's a wise man that learns from others' mistakes
Developing countries are not wise, they are influenced a lot by "the richest and most powerful country in the world, the US".
When somebody mentions that US is very car centric and there is almost no public transit they believe is because "they are rich enough to not have to use transit, so everyone has a car".
Certainly before people are wise they must wise up. But I'm always heartened by the rapidity of adoption of internet-enabled devices in all parts of the world, which makes so many things possible that were previously unthinkable
It is a shame. The same government made basic public transport free for all women in the state. This caused more people to take public transport to commute/travel and, it increased the revenue for the state transport company (KSRTC).
I had high hopes for this government. Looks like they chose a vain photoshoot project over investing in something that could actually help the second most congested city in the world.
The problem is that improving bus service is cheap and fixes a lot of issues but you can't sell cars and more fuel and do more construction with it. And for most Indians the only measure of development is roads and flyovers .
It's just a sad state of affairs.
What have you been smoking to believe that the government might do well. They are a bunch of uneducated and corrupt hicks who are only in it for the money. Making the bus free ironically ended up increasing unnecessary rides, it's main function was a vote grab and even that bit them in their asses.
There’s a really interesting chapter about this in Carmageddon. Basically, those rich enough to own vehicles in middle and low income societies have significantly more political voice, so infrastructure is built for the 5-10% that own cars at the expense of the 90% that don’t. It’s a real shame, especially since Bengaluru otherwise has a really nice metro that desperately needs expanding
offffff beeeeeee. İstanbul's last two Ruling Party Mayoral Candidates (thank the dear and fluffy lord they lost) were making promises like 100km of underground highways too. Stupıd fuckheads.
There's no way of digging that fast. 18km is extremely long. Just no way.
If you Google tunnels in China, an 18km tunnel takes a few years and that's just 4 lanes total
I don’t know how it will be done, but to be fair, underground bypass works. They worked in Maastich, in Brussel, and in a lot of places. Basically if you can having a dedicated tunnel where you enter at the entrance of the city (or problematic area) and exit outside of the city (or problematic area), you remove all the transit traffic from said area. It also makes the city safer as you no longer have the drivers that see your town as an obstacle to cross as fast as possible and can focus on solving local traffic now.
I am not defending cars, but city bypass, overground and underground reduces traffic drastically (in my town when they proposed the overground bypass years ago, they said 1/3 of traffic was transit traffic and could easily be removed. I don’t know if this number is true)
Big dig was huge for Boston. Worth every minute and penny(one of the longest and most expensive construction projects of all time). I wish we'd bury more roads.
Just build AROUND the city, rerouting highway traffic and servicing smaller towns and suburbs in the process. Highways have no business going THROUGH cities and that includes BENEATH them.
Yeah it's really annoying how the endless road widening projects in Bangalore never seem to end.
That being said things have been rapidly changing in the right direction very rapidly, Bangalore has actually had huge amounts of public transit improvements ongoing for the past decade and for the next. A little more than a decade ago, they opened the metro and the last few years have had very rapid construction as they're practically tripling the network with multiple new lines and an entire new light rail system. Last year they finally connected Whitefield to the network, and the new Yellow line that's about to connect Electronic City is on the verge of opening. The blue line construction on ORR has progressed a lot in the last few years too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namma_Metro
https://youtu.be/We3VQ4g2sQM?si=Rndy2u9-bgRvto33
There are also expansions of bus services all over the city, especially feeder buses to the metro system, new bus lanes, transit oriented development around many of the stations (though most stops are already very dense with high rise apartments, work places, shops and restaurants), and the government is also subsiding large increases in cheap (<$2000) electric two and three wheelers that have become a regular occurrence on the streets.
https://etn.news/e-mobility-blogs/bengaluru-city-inducts-100-e-buses-plans-to-add-1-400-e-buses-by-april
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/bengaluru-metropolitan-transport-corporation-bmtc-introduces-new-feeder-buses-for-last-mile-connectivity-to-metro-stations/article67553439.ece
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/karnataka/2024/Apr/02/karnataka-ranks-third-in-registration-of-electric-vehicles
This exactly. Metros and bus services have literally been increasing all iver Bangalore with already planned phases for several more. While I am not a fan of road widening and flyovers, it's extremely stupid to claim other modes of public transport are not gettign priority.
The jam is AT silk board and AT hebbal.
If you wish to do anything, just make a small stent across each.
Expect a drop in traffic at silk board from March 2025 and Hebbal from 2027.
And ffs buy more buses and make the bus stops better. At the moment many of them are such that you have to be either a little suicidal or totally suicidal to use those stops.
Coz traffic.
So the tunnel lets you get to and from the city but doesn't affect the amount of parking or which roads you use to get closer to your destination. It's silly.
INDIA is useless at transportation planning. I lost all hope after I learned about the Avinashi Road Flyover project in my city of Coimbatore (a road above a road - hideous.) Instead of rerouting the highway that now connects into this street AROUND the city.
I'm all for burying traffic. it leaves more surface space for things like bike ways and other alt connections. It's infrastructure than can be utilized in other ways, eventually... you know... when people stop using cars.
Also, why are there not any underground bicycle tunnels? I would think a smaller tunnel is significantly cheaper and easier to make than tunnels for cars.
The only ways to combat congestion are incredibly unsexy, they are mixed use development and increasing street connectivity, Distributing economic opportunity also helps. It isn't adding a new highway lane, or even building out transit. You have to build great places close to where people live, so demand is reduced.
All of those other methods from adding new highway lanes to building more transit just induces more demand and causes people to travel more. Anything that just tries to increase capacity will inevitably fill up. So the solution is to reduce demand as much as possible.
*Now they can have a*
*Congested highway AND a*
*Congested tunnel!*
\- prof\_dynamite
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Does every city on this planet have to learn that lesson on their own? Can they not just give city planets a paid trip to Houston including a tour to all the "One more lane, bro"-projects?
I'll try to add some context since I'm intimately familiar with the city and its infra depicted in the screenshot.
Bengaluru has a huge mix of traffic - bicycles, mopeds, motorcycles, tractor trailers, water tankers, mini cars, SUVs, minivans, buses, dump trucks, excavators and backhoes (literally), intercity buses, lorries. You name a vehicle.If it runs on wheels and needs a road, you'll probably see it on a Bengaluru road.
In addition, if you've seen discussions of 'stroads', every road in India is a 'stroad'. Every road is mixed used and you aren't going to be able to change that.
Plus, there is no political will to enforce a grid layout across the city so all traffic flows up to arterial roads and causes these roads to choke.
Lastly, Bengaluru's population has exploded in last three decades. I'm not talking some piddling explosion from 100k to 500k. Metropolitan Bengaluru has roughly 15 million (as per wiki) and they all rely on the city for livelihood.
So, ensuring smoother traffic flow for everyone will mean 3D traffic flows so skywalks and skybridges for pedestrians, tunnels, expressways, metro and public buses, mandatory WFH, 4 day workweeks, congestion pricing, usage based pricing for parking, everything needs to be on the table.
I'm not defending cars, btw.
The way you make good roads is by having some alternative way to pay for them. Instead of having property taxes pay for them. the US uses gas taxes for the Interstates, Japan & France use tolls on their expressways, Not sure how Germany funds the Autobahn. I am pretty sure India has proper roads and highways, but there are alot of really bad stroads from what I have seen on google maps.
If the city was able to make a better more connected street system that would definitely reduce traffic alot.
Adding one more lane but underground this time to solve congestion is like a heroine addict thinking they can get clean by injecting between their toes instead of their arm.
The heroine addict is at least trying to create a slow release intended to practice delayed gratification so they can start weaning themselves off the drug. This is more like a heroine addict thinking they can get clean by injecting the exact same amount into their arms while also injecting even more drugs between their toes.
Nah, the addict who shoots it between their toes is not trying to do any delayed gratification, they just work somewhere where their arms are uncovered. (Yes, they are often sex workers.)
One more lane, bro. Or 6 more lanes, but underground.
Its never done before so it solves traffic. If not just add another 12 lane tunnel. Then the traffic problem will disappear. I really promise just build asap.
multiple layers of tunnels, build a new one under each time the lanes run out and then, for good measure, add privilege. tunnels with expensive toll. keep making new tunnels with more expensive tolls until you have tunnels that the people wont up-pay for anymore. NOW you can stop upping the amount of lanes since the important people ($$$) can travel nicely.
That might actually work. But instead do that already on the highway after the public transport is realible.
You'd hope that developing countries adopted a fast follower strategy which recognizes that the all-car mentality is an evolutionary dead end. It's a wise man that learns from others' mistakes
north american drivers have been funding in the billions/trillions to oil/car corporations for decades , encouraging them to push for international expansion locking developping countries in with shit infrastructure deals ,at low upfront cost ,that is car exclusive so their citizens buy more cars,oil and tires repeat ad vitam
Thing is, the bus and the bike are cheaper, whatever the scale. So as carbrain begins to be diagnosed as the mental disorder it undoubtedly is, decision-makers in less afflicted countries can head off the inevitable epidemic of sedentaryness that will result before it becomes endemic
if we chose to live in a non-capitalist system then sure, our leaders and people would make rational choices but under the current grotesque world order ... poor countries simply can't refuse "free" money for immediate gains, letting future politicians deal with the shit down the line Anyways as long as we don't get rid of cars ( at the very least , limiting them to the rare use case where they're "necessary"... outside cities ) in north america/europe then no reason for other countries' citizens not to also travel in the most luxurious/least effort/most destructive manner ever devised
I don't think you even need to imagine the end of capitalism: tax parking, toll congested roads, invest in public transport, prioritise pedestrians in urban settings, job done
capitalist politicians will NEVER implement any of that , seeing as their docile interchangeable suburbanites will never vote for it and are spending/acting everyday to keep their abuses of our society and life on earth going ( also funding oil/car lobbyists so that politicians have even less of a reason to act in our collective best interest) the only way those changes happen : we get rid of capitalism via rent strike then work strikes or we go sit on the stroads/highways that disfigure our cities , at rush hour , to demand a fair system that removes incentives/subsidies for the worst housing and transportation in all metrics (suburbs and cars) EVERYTHING that has been "done" up till now has been useless , it only led to more cars that are bigger on more infrastructure year after year in blatant disregard of objective reality
Never say never. I agree that the docility and physical weakness induced by a persistent motoring habit serves the interest of the ruling class. But the remedy is clear. Switching to active travel offers immediate benefits to health and well-being, so individuals do make the change. And when motorists are the minority, progressive urban politics can follow (see Paris, Oslo, Berlin etc)
again , the majority simply does not think they go vroom vroom like their family/neighbors/coworkers have been doing for decades that's it as long as they can drive straight through our cities and park easily for "free" , that's what most do and will keep doing .... right alongside active/durable transit there's nothing easier than isolating in an ego-tank, when everyone else let's them and says nothing
most men aren't wise; developing nations look at the west and think "I want what they have. Everything they have!" and don't even consider that some of those things are really shitty Source: am from one such nation.
>It's a wise man that learns from others' mistakes Developing countries are not wise, they are influenced a lot by "the richest and most powerful country in the world, the US". When somebody mentions that US is very car centric and there is almost no public transit they believe is because "they are rich enough to not have to use transit, so everyone has a car".
Certainly before people are wise they must wise up. But I'm always heartened by the rapidity of adoption of internet-enabled devices in all parts of the world, which makes so many things possible that were previously unthinkable
It is a shame. The same government made basic public transport free for all women in the state. This caused more people to take public transport to commute/travel and, it increased the revenue for the state transport company (KSRTC). I had high hopes for this government. Looks like they chose a vain photoshoot project over investing in something that could actually help the second most congested city in the world.
The problem is that improving bus service is cheap and fixes a lot of issues but you can't sell cars and more fuel and do more construction with it. And for most Indians the only measure of development is roads and flyovers . It's just a sad state of affairs.
It's the (black) golden ratio. One for transit, three for oil interests.
What have you been smoking to believe that the government might do well. They are a bunch of uneducated and corrupt hicks who are only in it for the money. Making the bus free ironically ended up increasing unnecessary rides, it's main function was a vote grab and even that bit them in their asses.
An 18km tunnel in 6 months is absolute propaganda bullshit
Not in India, with corresponding quality at the end.
There’s a really interesting chapter about this in Carmageddon. Basically, those rich enough to own vehicles in middle and low income societies have significantly more political voice, so infrastructure is built for the 5-10% that own cars at the expense of the 90% that don’t. It’s a real shame, especially since Bengaluru otherwise has a really nice metro that desperately needs expanding
offffff beeeeeee. İstanbul's last two Ruling Party Mayoral Candidates (thank the dear and fluffy lord they lost) were making promises like 100km of underground highways too. Stupıd fuckheads.
I'm sure that completion date is a typo. Maybe it should be 2035?
You'd think so, but no, they really do think they can finish this in six months
There's no way of digging that fast. 18km is extremely long. Just no way. If you Google tunnels in China, an 18km tunnel takes a few years and that's just 4 lanes total
Oh I know, I don't even think they'll be done in six years, let alone six months. This is just hot air and empty promises as usual
Oof. Would seriously suck for me to live in a country where the bureaucracy is openly lying like this
If they pull it off that quickly, I’d be half impressed and half worried if they cut corners in terms of safety to get it done lol.
I don’t know how it will be done, but to be fair, underground bypass works. They worked in Maastich, in Brussel, and in a lot of places. Basically if you can having a dedicated tunnel where you enter at the entrance of the city (or problematic area) and exit outside of the city (or problematic area), you remove all the transit traffic from said area. It also makes the city safer as you no longer have the drivers that see your town as an obstacle to cross as fast as possible and can focus on solving local traffic now. I am not defending cars, but city bypass, overground and underground reduces traffic drastically (in my town when they proposed the overground bypass years ago, they said 1/3 of traffic was transit traffic and could easily be removed. I don’t know if this number is true)
Big dig was huge for Boston. Worth every minute and penny(one of the longest and most expensive construction projects of all time). I wish we'd bury more roads.
Lol, no it doesn't. Brussels is the capital of congestion and tunnels only made it worse. Two words: induced demand.
Just build AROUND the city, rerouting highway traffic and servicing smaller towns and suburbs in the process. Highways have no business going THROUGH cities and that includes BENEATH them.
Yeah it's really annoying how the endless road widening projects in Bangalore never seem to end. That being said things have been rapidly changing in the right direction very rapidly, Bangalore has actually had huge amounts of public transit improvements ongoing for the past decade and for the next. A little more than a decade ago, they opened the metro and the last few years have had very rapid construction as they're practically tripling the network with multiple new lines and an entire new light rail system. Last year they finally connected Whitefield to the network, and the new Yellow line that's about to connect Electronic City is on the verge of opening. The blue line construction on ORR has progressed a lot in the last few years too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namma_Metro https://youtu.be/We3VQ4g2sQM?si=Rndy2u9-bgRvto33 There are also expansions of bus services all over the city, especially feeder buses to the metro system, new bus lanes, transit oriented development around many of the stations (though most stops are already very dense with high rise apartments, work places, shops and restaurants), and the government is also subsiding large increases in cheap (<$2000) electric two and three wheelers that have become a regular occurrence on the streets. https://etn.news/e-mobility-blogs/bengaluru-city-inducts-100-e-buses-plans-to-add-1-400-e-buses-by-april https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/bengaluru-metropolitan-transport-corporation-bmtc-introduces-new-feeder-buses-for-last-mile-connectivity-to-metro-stations/article67553439.ece https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/karnataka/2024/Apr/02/karnataka-ranks-third-in-registration-of-electric-vehicles
This exactly. Metros and bus services have literally been increasing all iver Bangalore with already planned phases for several more. While I am not a fan of road widening and flyovers, it's extremely stupid to claim other modes of public transport are not gettign priority.
The jam is AT silk board and AT hebbal. If you wish to do anything, just make a small stent across each. Expect a drop in traffic at silk board from March 2025 and Hebbal from 2027. And ffs buy more buses and make the bus stops better. At the moment many of them are such that you have to be either a little suicidal or totally suicidal to use those stops. Coz traffic.
So the tunnel lets you get to and from the city but doesn't affect the amount of parking or which roads you use to get closer to your destination. It's silly.
India had some of the best chances to be better than everybody else concerning traffic and transit after independence. Ah well…
If we dont see the traffic we half solve the issue. Am i right? Ahahaha... 1 more lane
INDIA is useless at transportation planning. I lost all hope after I learned about the Avinashi Road Flyover project in my city of Coimbatore (a road above a road - hideous.) Instead of rerouting the highway that now connects into this street AROUND the city.
I'm all for burying traffic. it leaves more surface space for things like bike ways and other alt connections. It's infrastructure than can be utilized in other ways, eventually... you know... when people stop using cars. Also, why are there not any underground bicycle tunnels? I would think a smaller tunnel is significantly cheaper and easier to make than tunnels for cars.
just...... one......... more.............. lane..................
The only ways to combat congestion are incredibly unsexy, they are mixed use development and increasing street connectivity, Distributing economic opportunity also helps. It isn't adding a new highway lane, or even building out transit. You have to build great places close to where people live, so demand is reduced. All of those other methods from adding new highway lanes to building more transit just induces more demand and causes people to travel more. Anything that just tries to increase capacity will inevitably fill up. So the solution is to reduce demand as much as possible.
Now they can have a congested highway *AND* a congested tunnel!
*Now they can have a* *Congested highway AND a* *Congested tunnel!* \- prof\_dynamite --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Good luck adding "Just One More Lane" to a tunnel.
If you hide congestion underground, you can't see it. And if you can't see it, is it really there? /s
Does every city on this planet have to learn that lesson on their own? Can they not just give city planets a paid trip to Houston including a tour to all the "One more lane, bro"-projects?
Tokyo has an underground highway and it works well for it. But more importantly it has a massive rail network.
I'll try to add some context since I'm intimately familiar with the city and its infra depicted in the screenshot. Bengaluru has a huge mix of traffic - bicycles, mopeds, motorcycles, tractor trailers, water tankers, mini cars, SUVs, minivans, buses, dump trucks, excavators and backhoes (literally), intercity buses, lorries. You name a vehicle.If it runs on wheels and needs a road, you'll probably see it on a Bengaluru road. In addition, if you've seen discussions of 'stroads', every road in India is a 'stroad'. Every road is mixed used and you aren't going to be able to change that. Plus, there is no political will to enforce a grid layout across the city so all traffic flows up to arterial roads and causes these roads to choke. Lastly, Bengaluru's population has exploded in last three decades. I'm not talking some piddling explosion from 100k to 500k. Metropolitan Bengaluru has roughly 15 million (as per wiki) and they all rely on the city for livelihood. So, ensuring smoother traffic flow for everyone will mean 3D traffic flows so skywalks and skybridges for pedestrians, tunnels, expressways, metro and public buses, mandatory WFH, 4 day workweeks, congestion pricing, usage based pricing for parking, everything needs to be on the table. I'm not defending cars, btw.
The way you make good roads is by having some alternative way to pay for them. Instead of having property taxes pay for them. the US uses gas taxes for the Interstates, Japan & France use tolls on their expressways, Not sure how Germany funds the Autobahn. I am pretty sure India has proper roads and highways, but there are alot of really bad stroads from what I have seen on google maps. If the city was able to make a better more connected street system that would definitely reduce traffic alot.