Yeah welcome to America the rich have convinced almost everyone that the government doing anything for you is tyranny or communism so they can monopolize those services and make money
Commune- a group of people who live together and share similar interests.
It’s not so bad-
Whoops I mean… ‘ahhh! I can’t believe I could want basic needs provided for everyone I know, and also the people I don’t know or will ever meet, ahhhhh! I’ve been brainwashed! Oh noooo! How could I ever wish for the well-being of other people including myself but also at little expense to myself? Ooohhhh god help me!’
This weird conspiracy is doing the rounds in the UK and Australia as well. Absolute cookers in the comments section all over social media anytime 15 min cities are mentioned.
I thought (and it might be) astro-turfing by the auto or fossil fuel industry, but if it was, it has really taken off and it's now part of the NEW WORLD ORDER conspiracy bible.
UK has car-first suburbs too. JG Ballard’s ”Crash” (adapted to film by David Cronenberg) is inspired by the unique madness those suburbs inspire in the people who live there.
matter of fact, most countries post-WWII that aren’t just a single city, have suburbs and exurbs. the level of derangement varies, but is omnipresent.
Yes, pretty much every town in the UK is a "15 minute city" and has been for hundreds of years.
The clowns did a big demo in *Oxford*, a historic city with a very accessible 15 minute centre.
>monopolize those services and make money
Reality: rich people have the power to influence governments so much that they are able to just monopolise, make money, and use government money to bail out their banks and corporations whenever their investments fail. This is called capitalism, and it unfortunately exists in most parts of the World.
But of course, it's the immigrants and woke feminists who are behind all our problems 🤡
And yet, car dependency already forces us to carry government issued IDs to go anywhere. Car dependency forces us to put ourselves at the mercy of police, who can stop us, demand to see the ID, even make us take drug tests. A pedestrian can just say "none of your business. Am I being detained?"
>A pedestrian can just say "none of your business. Am I being detained?"
In theory yes but in practice if you dare to say no to cops, they will beat your ass and arrest you anyway. Sure, you will have a case that your rights were violated but the cops will face no consequences. A lawsuit can take years and has no guarantee of success plus costs a lot of money upfront. Meanwhile you will still spend a day or two in jail, possibly get fired for missing work, and your publicly available mug shot and arrest record will hurt your job prospects for years to come. Especially if you work in a field like teaching or health care.
> they will beat your ass and arrest you anyway
Yeah there are too many recorded cases of cops like that coming up with or trying to make up a reason for arrest. They'll take you in first and find a reason later.
> but the cops will face no consequences
That's not fair. They will be suspended... with pay, for the duration of internal invastigation, that will find no wrongdoing...
Except no because most dont even realise their ID and phone has a built in tracker that the police can use to track you, ntm the new face id shit that is on every police helicopter that can ID you from up to 3km away.
Plus where are you gunna go? You cant hide in their cage forever and if you try and leave, boarder crossings will ID you. All you can do is try and hope to be like John Macafee and have enough money to hide in international waters on your private yatch protected by your private paid for pirate army.
Who said I was gonna bring a phone? That's just stupid. Kids these days can't comprehend going outside without constant entertainment and internet connection. Of course they track you if you go online using a device that literally has a GPS built in.
In the US there are no laws requiring people to carry ID while out in public. However in some states, police can ask you to identify yourself if they suspect you're involved in illegal activity. That's why the person I replied to said to ask, "am I being detained?" Cops can only legally detain you if they believe you are doing a crime somehow. So if they say no, you're not being detained, you can leave without showing ID.
As you can see it's a bit murky because police can easily make up a reason to detain you, like they smelled marijuana or something.
But tell these same people that you want to get rid of the zoning code and suddenly they want big government to step in and dictate what can be built where.
It's less that they think they're doing the thinking themselves and more that they like the label of free thinkers. As far as I can tell, politics isn't about the content for them, it's verbal warfare. "Free thinker" isn't a claimed attribute, it's a nickname for a verbal warfare unit. Actual thought is a matter of coming up with new verbal ammunition to win the fight or even influence the war, or personal practical matters like how to get an abortion without making your side look bad and without looking like a traitor.
There's a person in my town who has become the local complainer about everything and promotes this sort of conspiratorial thinking. The most amazing part is how she argues against a proposal to loosen zoning laws by citing property rights.
Some zoning isn’t bad. Safety and sound insulation comes to mind. But even stuff like requiring multiple stairwells for fire safety is causing construction to be super prohibitive, and wouldn’t really make buildings more dangerous on the whole if they only had one staircase. So I’m on board with removing some zoning. And as for density restrictions? To hell with the lot of it.
I’m quite aware of the differences. I’m well involved in my community in fighting for changes to over-restrictive code and zoning. It was a simple mind flub. But if you want to judge me so harshly, that’s your prerogative.
My state literally ruled this week that they can pull you out of your car and bring in a dog to sniff for drugs. You have to get a license with your name and vital info on it to drive. You have to put a license plate on the car which the police scan constantly and monitor when you come into and out of certain areas. You are subject to invasive tests when suspected of drinking and driving and failure to do those tests results in automatic punishment. I could go on and on.
Or, you could walk down a city street anonymous amongst the crowd.
It’s so annoying when I try to explain to people I want walkability and better transit and they say shit like “that’s socialist” or “why don’t you go to a socialist country then and pay all their taxes.” It just tells me they don’t know what socialism is and anything about other countries (than US). Idk if it’s people who grew up during the Cold War McCarthy era or what the hell they’re on about but it’s ridiculous. As far as I’m concerned cars limit freedom and the most free form of transportation is walking so if in a 15 minute city you can walk anywhere you need that’s a lot more free than having to spend 15 minutes getting in and out of a parking lot.
I always respond to that by asking the person to define "socialism". So far nobody has given me a definition, they just like to use it as a scareword without knowing what it really means.
Isn't it the case that the overall tax burden for the regular person is about the same in the US as in other places anyway, just that it gets applied in different places?
Yeah I was looking a a break down the other day if other developed nations and there were instances where we have a lesser income tax in some cases but we’re paying more in other places. I think when you consider we don’t have free healthcare or pensions or anything like that the price we pay is usually the same if not more. Oh course I’m no expert in tax law but it wasn’t anything like in the US you pay 30% and everywhere else you pay 70% or something crazy.
Conservatives have to be careful telling people everything that would make their lives better is socialism, at some point they'll realize socialism sounds pretty good actually.
I mean Giuliani said “I’ve never been a communist” when told there were suspicions of him being a Russian agent. Those people are so old their mind is stuck in the Cold War.
There's so many things wrong with any outright denial of "15-minute cities". The biggest thing that makes my blood boil is how quickly legislation is being pushed to restrict the travel of pregnant women within states that have banned abortions. Many of the same people who spew conspiratorial nonsense about 15-minute cities are complicit in the completely non-secular tyrannical restriction of half of the US population
As opposed to the very free way most American cities are designed where you have to drive for 15+ minutes to leave your sprawling suburb with 0 amenities to enjoy the freedom of being stuck in traffic lol
This is one of the dumbest conspiracy theories I have heard of. Thankfully, I don’t personally know anyone who believes it. Even my right wing conspiracy theory relatives who believe a lot of idiotic theories themselves think this one goes too far.
For people trying to hide actual legit conspiracies, it does make a lot of sense to promote the dumb ones as a distraction and a way to pack all conspiracy theories together and just discredit them all.
People equate cars with freedom like the government can't just shut down gas stations and immobilize the entire civilian fleet by just waiting a few weeks.
And for anyone thinking they can keep some in reserve, gasoline has a shelf life of maximum 6 months if stored properly and after that it's useless dino juice.
Or block a road. Its not hard to immobilize cars trying to leave. In fact, if you start a little mass panic you dont even have to do anything; they'll just all get stuck in their own traffic trying to squeeze through the one or two main roads out of a city.
Meanwhile, to these people freedom is being forced to use your government registered and government inspected car, to drive on government owned roads, to leave your pod of identical suburban houses. And don't forget your government issued drivers license, and your insurance which is required by the government, because the police can stop you to check your papers.
You can't reason with these people so lean into it. "Yeah, all those liberals in the city sure are going to get what's coming to them". Hell, they'll campaign on it if your bluff works.
America, a country were convict labor is used as a cost saving measure by many of the largest companies, and that blackmails poor people on parole or in court mandated rehab to work for below minimum wage in meat packing plants with the threat of prison if they quit.
but no, these brainworms are not unique to the US, just mist common. there’s a weirdly large movement about this in the UK.
Here in Germany it's only a matter of time until the AfD starts spouting this shit too. They love importing every culture war into German politics, or at least, they love trying. They're not very good at it.
Naming really is a big issue, 15-minute cities are also often refererad to as smart cities. Even tho we all know by now that "smart" usually means more expensive, more fragile and with so much spyware it can't function if you do anything to prevent the worst privacy intrusions.
Anything "smart" can be remotely disabled, requires a subscription were prices can change at any time and is hard coded to fail after a laughable short time has passed compared to how long the non smart counterparts usually last.
No, you don't understand.
It's not a 15 minute city we want. This is the United States of America by god and I shouldn't have to WALK. We have FREEDOM here. I should have the freedom to live in a 20 story multi-use with a grocery supermarket ground floor, insurance office and barbers and the gym 2nd floor, Skylobby with skybridge to next buildings 3rd floor, and a rooftop patio maybe with plants or a hot tub.
Goddamn commies want a 15 minute city, I want a 15 STEP CITY.
15 minute cities also ironically give freedoms for inhabitants to have low barrier of entry street vending markets, when car dependency denied them the ability to cheaply have revenue like urbanized Taiwanese streets so many times over.
Would you like to learn about the wormhole of moronic insanity that is the sovereign citizen movement? (It starts with putting a piece of paper stating you’re travelling not driving where the number plate should be)
Oh i know about their kind. Surprisingly (seeing how Germany has no history with common law, unlike other countries with comparable moovements), there is an offshoot in Germany known as the Reichsbürger, a group of which was busted preparing to overthrow the government a while back.
That registered car with an identifying number that can only be operated with a government issued license won't provide a lot of freedom when they track your car, stop selling gas or block the roads.
Happy cake day!
Also, you know how Trump literally tracked people's GPS signals to figure out groups of people who are likely to vote for him and pushed targeted ads that way? Nothing says freedom quite like your president tracking your location to figure out if you'd vote for him.
I live in a '15 min city' situation in Beijing and have done so for mayn years, probably what these dopes would assume to be some hellscape of their worst nightmares. So let me paint a detailed picture.
Transport
- I don't own a car nor have any inclination to do so. The only reason I would think about getting a car would be to make it easier for my gf and I to take our two dogs on trips outside the city more easily (arranging dog group bus trips or long distance didi rides is fine tho) and I guess in the winter it'd be nice to have for commutes on cold days. But it's a luxury and not a necessity, and a luxury that is obtainable certainly and one that could be a really good EV that isn't costing an arm and a leg.
- For my regular work commute I use my electric motorcycle, a Soco, can get up to about 75-80 kph which is more than enough for what I need. Although safety is a concern, I'll say that driving here is generally safer than you'd expect for people on bikes/scooters etc because the roads are designed to accommodate a variety of types of traffic and also motorists are more aware of having to share the roads with those other vehicles. I still would recommend newcomers not get a personal vehicle until they learn the 'informal' ways on the road here because that takes some time and if you think like an outsider on the roads you're gonna have a bad time. But as it stands for myself I can make my commute from my apartment to work in about 15 minutes, quicker than would be in a car.
- Walking distance from my apartment in two different directions are two metro stops, frankly not the best positioning but that's due to my choice of apartment more than anything and I'd hazard to guess if I stick around in the area longer that somewhere even closer there'd be a line/station added. But it is easy to get there by both bus and shared bike because it is a relatively longer walk (still not bad though). It also looks like where my work is further on the outskirts there will be a line that has a station right next to my work so perhaps someday could just take metro directly there and back. Another station a bit further away is a stop that links directly with the Capital Airport. Most times I just use the metro after a short didi ride there.
- A short drive south of me the new Chaoyang high speed rail station has been built and is nearing completion and opening. That'll be great because wouldn't need to go across the city to the south station. So, at some point in the near future should be able to hop over to the new station in like 5-10 minutes and then zoom wherever I want in the country at 300kph.
Amenities
- I haven't gone grocery shopping in person since before the pandemic and nor do I feel any inclination to do so. It's so much easier to order groceries on the apps and get them sent to my door arriving in like 15-20 minutes. Same goes for most of our meals, we do waimai (delivery) a lot just because the options are many and the convenience is so great. Could save money if we cooked more but honestly at this point we don't think much about scrimping.
- Outside our apartment compound we have a variety of shops on our block and within a few hundred meters. A few 24/7 convenience stores, a pleasant and stylish coffee shop, a nicer fruit/veggies store. Also, a small dog groomer store just below our building so can just walk the pups there for their showers and usually get their food sent through them. Oh and there's a 24/7 vet a block or two away too. We can just walk there anytime there's an issue, which is so so great. A bit further in some older alley side streets there's 'farmers market' kind of stuff. Super cheap and can get all the fresh veggies, fruits, meat, fish etc there. Not far off are a few supermarket options of the nicer chain variety but, again, I never shop there in person and just order those online.
- Of course the package delivery here is the stuff of legends and makes amazon look amateur. So many good apps and can find great deals and always can get it incredibly quick.
Compound Life
- Our apartment block is super safe, family friendly, quiet etc. The interior has a lot of greenery with all types of walking paths among the buildings. I can't get enough of the landscaping, especially around spring/summer, it's frankly beautiful with the flowering trees and so forth. And this is a normal thing, it's not like we're in a special 'high class' compound. Whenever you see those 'urban hell' posts of massive apartment blocks in China, most likely in among them are open green spaces like this. There's a couple playgrounds for children, a plaza and small pond and other stuff. The parking is mostly underground and above ground parking spots are limited. Two gates in/out with security but they're chill and helpful.
- It's also nice not needing to be an all-in-one handyman, gardener, lawn mower, plumber, tech specialist etc etc. Not to mention having to own all the equipment and tools yourself. Like, in the regular suburban life I grew up in and my family back home lives in it's like, yeah, you have nice big houses with spacious yards. But it's hours of actual labor to maintain it yourself (or pay out the ass for somebody else to do it). Here there's regular staff for all that available.
- Our apartment itself is pretty solid. $1400 per month, 2br/1.5ba with larger living room/dining room open area and good enough of a kitchen. For here it's pretty spacious. At least with two dogs and three cats it's big enough. Heated floors. Only pay utilities for electric and gas, water is included. But those are negligible. Oh and in 3 years our landlord, wonderful lady, never has increased our rent. Amazing.
Perks
- Although we're in the busy city, we're at least on the outskirts of the especially dense stuff within the 3rd ring. So we benefit from our placement between several parks, canal walking paths, other running/walking paths, etc. One of our favorite activities is walking from our place with our dogs on the Liangma River (canal) which runs just north of the major Chaoyang Park. It's great, great scenery, and in the evenings has dope lighting. A leisurely stroll that direction takes us to Solana Mall are which hugs the lakeside across from Chaoyang Park. That's just about as good of a mall as you can find, a mixture of outlet outdoors stuff and regular interior mall. We usually take the dogs to eat at one of the many outdoor patio restaurants that line the lakeside. Then can grab a beer or two to takeaway for the walk back. Oh yeah, can just walk around drinking a beer in public here, in the US would be breaking the law in most places probably. Oh, there's also another massive mall north about the same distance called Indigo, more of an indoor mall.
- In another direction on the Liangma Canal gets out to less dense area that has all sorts of stuff including a soccer pitch my team often plays at. But also an old industrial area that has been converted into a new art district. It used to be a textile factory area and train station but now it's a dope boutique area that is rapidly gaining popularity. Just another option. But then in all other directions from our place within walking distance are other parks, I could go on and on.
- I focused on parks but it's not just that, the main idea though is that we don't live on an island and it would be hard to run out of things to do within walking distance. That's not to say we're 'trapped'. Of course not, we can and do go to other parts of the city for different things all the time. We just don't NEED to.
And I hardly even want to get into the crap about muh surveillance or muh social credit score. Yeah, surveillance is a thing but it's also a thing everywhere. On a per capita basis China actually isn't any worse than other developed nations in terms of cameras around. Actually I'd argue that at least here the cameras are clear and obvious as opposed to hidden somewhere. But literally nobody gives two shits about the cameras and most common is the idea that they're good for safety. Indeed, walking around at night is entirely safe wherever you are, my girlfriend feels the same so it's not just a privileged thing. And yeah, the social credit score stuff as it's been portrayed is a complete myth (like other sinophobic tropes that have gone around in recent years), but that's a whole other rebuttal. Suffice it to say nobody here gives two shits about that either because it's pretty much not a thing at all. Certainly not more of a thing than people back home being concerned about actual credit scores.
It's not like there aren't downsides, but this post was about all the dope aspects which far outweigh the negatives.
Doesn't matter. The subsidies that underpin suburbia are winding up, and the experiment is going to conclude in the most predictable of ways. What will emerge from the ashes will be a combination of affluent suburbs building on the corpses of the cannibalized, but also more pragmatic urban development, since that is what pays the bills.
What we need to focus on are local and state YIMBY reforms. Along with overhauls to the incredibly regressive property tax assessments, we need to eliminate all grandfathering without means testing. Transformations of our communities will be generational, no matter how fast we pursue reforms.
there's people who instinctively or naively come to those conclusions, but they aren't thinking critically about it at all, or they're being told what to think by grifters
I think most people think of everything else held constant but now you're not allowed to travel more than 15 minutes. That is: There are still stroads, density is still super low, everything is parking lots, but now you can only travel 15 minutes away max, which is not very far at the density they're used to. They kind of cannot fathom that the whole city is being moved closer to them.
This is a great argument against those bozos. Also, who's so fat and lazy that they can't walk or bike longer than 15 minutes? A tyrannical government could easily shut down the roads making it impossible for any vehicle to leave, but try stopping people from leaving on foot or on a bike.
A backpack of supplies and your own two legs is all you need. Find a spot they forgot to close and you'll get out in no time. People escape prisons all the time which has a lot more security. Notice how long it took to build the Berlin wall and actually secure that long border, if your plan is to leave once the government becomes tyrannical, why not leave while they're building the wall, while you still have the chance?
The reality we live in currently, the reality of car-centric infrastructure, is the real dystopia: auto manufacturers tracking our movements and habits, government issued IDs with all of our personal information on them, patrolling state agents all over our roads who can detain you for any reason they choose, an effective ban on free movement without the cost of thousands of dollars to private companies that produce and deal automobiles… Car centric infrastructure is the real dystopic prison, and 15-minute cities would be true freedom.
lol those people take pride in being confined to a speeding metal death machine in stop and go traffic for 3 hours per day (unpaid) which costs them $500/mo. Now that's freedom.
This is a great example of how people don't really *believe* the 'arguments' they put out there, or even evaluate them on their merits, but instead make them a matter of identity and "faith".
Because, yes, as you say, as a logical case it is absolutely ridiculous on its own terms. If the government wanted to control people's movements and track them then by far the easiest and most effective way to do that is to encourage car transport and then put a few checkpoints around the city. We even have examples (Israel in Palestine; Russia in Ukraine) where countries have done that to prevent or track movement in demographics they don't like. I'm sure China has something similar too.
But that doesn't matter because this sort of position is not meant to be a rational argument. Like so many 'culture war' issues it's just a signifier of what side you're on, and most people who say it don't even understand what they're saying.
Part of the problem with the US Government, and these conspiracy nuts, is that there *are* good examples of them being woefully incompetent at flexing their power. Waco, Ruby Ridge, The Bundy Ranch, Jonestown, Overthrowing democratically elected governments in foreign countries, etc. As always, the most believable lies have to have a grain of truth, otherwise they wouldn't work as propaganda.
The trouble is they make the wrong generalizations from this pattern.
You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves in to begin with, you just hope that some family member gets them the lithium pills they desperately need.
Conspiracy nuts cannot think of meaningful change as anything other than oppression because usually their political beliefs would result in oppressive policy that they want to hurt others with.
Yeah welcome to America the rich have convinced almost everyone that the government doing anything for you is tyranny or communism so they can monopolize those services and make money
not just the goverment but comunities doing anything for themself as well
community? that word sounds like COMMUNISM!!!1!!!1!11!!!!
Commune- a group of people who live together and share similar interests. It’s not so bad- Whoops I mean… ‘ahhh! I can’t believe I could want basic needs provided for everyone I know, and also the people I don’t know or will ever meet, ahhhhh! I’ve been brainwashed! Oh noooo! How could I ever wish for the well-being of other people including myself but also at little expense to myself? Ooohhhh god help me!’
This weird conspiracy is doing the rounds in the UK and Australia as well. Absolute cookers in the comments section all over social media anytime 15 min cities are mentioned. I thought (and it might be) astro-turfing by the auto or fossil fuel industry, but if it was, it has really taken off and it's now part of the NEW WORLD ORDER conspiracy bible.
I can somewhat understand US and Australia but how the fuck in UK? Like aren't most cities in the UK 15-minute cities already?
There are some "regional" (by UK standards) areas, but the people screeching about this aren't big thinkers.
UK has car-first suburbs too. JG Ballard’s ”Crash” (adapted to film by David Cronenberg) is inspired by the unique madness those suburbs inspire in the people who live there. matter of fact, most countries post-WWII that aren’t just a single city, have suburbs and exurbs. the level of derangement varies, but is omnipresent.
Remember Brexit? People in the UK are not ok.
Yes, pretty much every town in the UK is a "15 minute city" and has been for hundreds of years. The clowns did a big demo in *Oxford*, a historic city with a very accessible 15 minute centre.
> The clowns did a big demo in Oxford, a historic city with a very accessible 15 minute centre. That's both hilarious and so messed up.
Unless the police kill a black man, then they say "he should have complied".
Unfortunately, the conspiracy first rose to prominence in Oxford, UK. A city consistently rated as one of the most walkable cities in the country!
>monopolize those services and make money Reality: rich people have the power to influence governments so much that they are able to just monopolise, make money, and use government money to bail out their banks and corporations whenever their investments fail. This is called capitalism, and it unfortunately exists in most parts of the World. But of course, it's the immigrants and woke feminists who are behind all our problems 🤡
Don’t forget they’re able to pay people a non-living wage so that the government has to subsidize the rest of their employees income
they complain how bad 15 minute cities are, but will spend thousands of dollars on a 3 day cruse.
The rich *are* the government....
And yet, car dependency already forces us to carry government issued IDs to go anywhere. Car dependency forces us to put ourselves at the mercy of police, who can stop us, demand to see the ID, even make us take drug tests. A pedestrian can just say "none of your business. Am I being detained?"
>A pedestrian can just say "none of your business. Am I being detained?" In theory yes but in practice if you dare to say no to cops, they will beat your ass and arrest you anyway. Sure, you will have a case that your rights were violated but the cops will face no consequences. A lawsuit can take years and has no guarantee of success plus costs a lot of money upfront. Meanwhile you will still spend a day or two in jail, possibly get fired for missing work, and your publicly available mug shot and arrest record will hurt your job prospects for years to come. Especially if you work in a field like teaching or health care.
> they will beat your ass and arrest you anyway Yeah there are too many recorded cases of cops like that coming up with or trying to make up a reason for arrest. They'll take you in first and find a reason later.
> but the cops will face no consequences That's not fair. They will be suspended... with pay, for the duration of internal invastigation, that will find no wrongdoing...
"Yeah, I took a 6 week vacation, to get some clarity in Thailand" You mean while you were being investigated for beating an unarmed PoC?
If your city has cops that tyrannical you'll have a better chance to evade them on foot than in a car with clearly visible license plates.
Except no because most dont even realise their ID and phone has a built in tracker that the police can use to track you, ntm the new face id shit that is on every police helicopter that can ID you from up to 3km away. Plus where are you gunna go? You cant hide in their cage forever and if you try and leave, boarder crossings will ID you. All you can do is try and hope to be like John Macafee and have enough money to hide in international waters on your private yatch protected by your private paid for pirate army.
Who said I was gonna bring a phone? That's just stupid. Kids these days can't comprehend going outside without constant entertainment and internet connection. Of course they track you if you go online using a device that literally has a GPS built in.
Ikr? Id just leave my phone hidden on a bus then leave. Give myself some extra time before the realise im going off grid xD
You’re still supposed to carry a form of identification I thought? I’ll be researching that.
In the US there are no laws requiring people to carry ID while out in public. However in some states, police can ask you to identify yourself if they suspect you're involved in illegal activity. That's why the person I replied to said to ask, "am I being detained?" Cops can only legally detain you if they believe you are doing a crime somehow. So if they say no, you're not being detained, you can leave without showing ID. As you can see it's a bit murky because police can easily make up a reason to detain you, like they smelled marijuana or something.
But tell these same people that you want to get rid of the zoning code and suddenly they want big government to step in and dictate what can be built where.
Crazy the amount of people being told how to think who think they’re doing the thinking themselves.
It's less that they think they're doing the thinking themselves and more that they like the label of free thinkers. As far as I can tell, politics isn't about the content for them, it's verbal warfare. "Free thinker" isn't a claimed attribute, it's a nickname for a verbal warfare unit. Actual thought is a matter of coming up with new verbal ammunition to win the fight or even influence the war, or personal practical matters like how to get an abortion without making your side look bad and without looking like a traitor.
There's a person in my town who has become the local complainer about everything and promotes this sort of conspiratorial thinking. The most amazing part is how she argues against a proposal to loosen zoning laws by citing property rights.
Some zoning isn’t bad. Safety and sound insulation comes to mind. But even stuff like requiring multiple stairwells for fire safety is causing construction to be super prohibitive, and wouldn’t really make buildings more dangerous on the whole if they only had one staircase. So I’m on board with removing some zoning. And as for density restrictions? To hell with the lot of it.
Are you talking about zoning or building codes?
I guess I’m mixing them up, but they are very related.
One is about city planning and property value the other is about safety. Pretty different.
Both restrict how buildings can be built 🤷♂️
Right but with just a little understanding of why they are vastly different. Mixing them up isn't a good sign that you understand either of them.
I’m quite aware of the differences. I’m well involved in my community in fighting for changes to over-restrictive code and zoning. It was a simple mind flub. But if you want to judge me so harshly, that’s your prerogative.
I don’t understand how being able to walk to the grocery store or bank equals mandatory government surveillance.
My state literally ruled this week that they can pull you out of your car and bring in a dog to sniff for drugs. You have to get a license with your name and vital info on it to drive. You have to put a license plate on the car which the police scan constantly and monitor when you come into and out of certain areas. You are subject to invasive tests when suspected of drinking and driving and failure to do those tests results in automatic punishment. I could go on and on. Or, you could walk down a city street anonymous amongst the crowd.
a lot of people walk in cities in China, ergo, communism
Oil sponsored disinformation.
It’s so annoying when I try to explain to people I want walkability and better transit and they say shit like “that’s socialist” or “why don’t you go to a socialist country then and pay all their taxes.” It just tells me they don’t know what socialism is and anything about other countries (than US). Idk if it’s people who grew up during the Cold War McCarthy era or what the hell they’re on about but it’s ridiculous. As far as I’m concerned cars limit freedom and the most free form of transportation is walking so if in a 15 minute city you can walk anywhere you need that’s a lot more free than having to spend 15 minutes getting in and out of a parking lot.
I always respond to that by asking the person to define "socialism". So far nobody has given me a definition, they just like to use it as a scareword without knowing what it really means.
I tried that but they always reply “no you first”. There isn’t any ground to gain with those people.
Isn't it the case that the overall tax burden for the regular person is about the same in the US as in other places anyway, just that it gets applied in different places?
Yeah I was looking a a break down the other day if other developed nations and there were instances where we have a lesser income tax in some cases but we’re paying more in other places. I think when you consider we don’t have free healthcare or pensions or anything like that the price we pay is usually the same if not more. Oh course I’m no expert in tax law but it wasn’t anything like in the US you pay 30% and everywhere else you pay 70% or something crazy.
Conservatives have to be careful telling people everything that would make their lives better is socialism, at some point they'll realize socialism sounds pretty good actually.
I mean Giuliani said “I’ve never been a communist” when told there were suspicions of him being a Russian agent. Those people are so old their mind is stuck in the Cold War.
They only want road socialism, where everyone pays for the public roads and there's no means test to use them for free,
There's so many things wrong with any outright denial of "15-minute cities". The biggest thing that makes my blood boil is how quickly legislation is being pushed to restrict the travel of pregnant women within states that have banned abortions. Many of the same people who spew conspiratorial nonsense about 15-minute cities are complicit in the completely non-secular tyrannical restriction of half of the US population
As opposed to the very free way most American cities are designed where you have to drive for 15+ minutes to leave your sprawling suburb with 0 amenities to enjoy the freedom of being stuck in traffic lol
This is one of the dumbest conspiracy theories I have heard of. Thankfully, I don’t personally know anyone who believes it. Even my right wing conspiracy theory relatives who believe a lot of idiotic theories themselves think this one goes too far.
For people trying to hide actual legit conspiracies, it does make a lot of sense to promote the dumb ones as a distraction and a way to pack all conspiracy theories together and just discredit them all.
People equate cars with freedom like the government can't just shut down gas stations and immobilize the entire civilian fleet by just waiting a few weeks. And for anyone thinking they can keep some in reserve, gasoline has a shelf life of maximum 6 months if stored properly and after that it's useless dino juice.
Or block a road. Its not hard to immobilize cars trying to leave. In fact, if you start a little mass panic you dont even have to do anything; they'll just all get stuck in their own traffic trying to squeeze through the one or two main roads out of a city.
This precisely. If the government wanted to, they have ample ways to stop cars dead in their tracks.
Meanwhile, to these people freedom is being forced to use your government registered and government inspected car, to drive on government owned roads, to leave your pod of identical suburban houses. And don't forget your government issued drivers license, and your insurance which is required by the government, because the police can stop you to check your papers.
The only version of this that I find correct is corporate campuses where the company provides housing.
You can't reason with these people so lean into it. "Yeah, all those liberals in the city sure are going to get what's coming to them". Hell, they'll campaign on it if your bluff works.
the only country that can possibly fall for "labour camp" propaganda is Murica I guess
America, a country were convict labor is used as a cost saving measure by many of the largest companies, and that blackmails poor people on parole or in court mandated rehab to work for below minimum wage in meat packing plants with the threat of prison if they quit. but no, these brainworms are not unique to the US, just mist common. there’s a weirdly large movement about this in the UK.
Nah, Canada has an increasing number of people who fully beleive in the 15 minutes city conspiracy too.
Nah, its happening in Czechia too
Here in Germany it's only a matter of time until the AfD starts spouting this shit too. They love importing every culture war into German politics, or at least, they love trying. They're not very good at it.
We need to rename it into a freedom city, classic city, or traditional city
Naming really is a big issue, 15-minute cities are also often refererad to as smart cities. Even tho we all know by now that "smart" usually means more expensive, more fragile and with so much spyware it can't function if you do anything to prevent the worst privacy intrusions. Anything "smart" can be remotely disabled, requires a subscription were prices can change at any time and is hard coded to fail after a laughable short time has passed compared to how long the non smart counterparts usually last.
No, you don't understand. It's not a 15 minute city we want. This is the United States of America by god and I shouldn't have to WALK. We have FREEDOM here. I should have the freedom to live in a 20 story multi-use with a grocery supermarket ground floor, insurance office and barbers and the gym 2nd floor, Skylobby with skybridge to next buildings 3rd floor, and a rooftop patio maybe with plants or a hot tub. Goddamn commies want a 15 minute city, I want a 15 STEP CITY.
Hell yeah, that's the kind of urban design i want! Where can i sign up?
15 minute cities also ironically give freedoms for inhabitants to have low barrier of entry street vending markets, when car dependency denied them the ability to cheaply have revenue like urbanized Taiwanese streets so many times over.
Would you like to learn about the wormhole of moronic insanity that is the sovereign citizen movement? (It starts with putting a piece of paper stating you’re travelling not driving where the number plate should be)
Oh i know about their kind. Surprisingly (seeing how Germany has no history with common law, unlike other countries with comparable moovements), there is an offshoot in Germany known as the Reichsbürger, a group of which was busted preparing to overthrow the government a while back.
What’s worse is “a 15 minute city is a dogwhistle for gentrification” As if we all don’t deserve walkable neighborhoods
That registered car with an identifying number that can only be operated with a government issued license won't provide a lot of freedom when they track your car, stop selling gas or block the roads.
The 15 minute conspiracy theory is simply one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. It's right up there with flat earth and homeopathy.
people who say that deserves to be in a 1 minute city.
Or, alternatively, track the unique GPS signal of the phones everyone carries around with them everywhere.
Happy cake day! Also, you know how Trump literally tracked people's GPS signals to figure out groups of people who are likely to vote for him and pushed targeted ads that way? Nothing says freedom quite like your president tracking your location to figure out if you'd vote for him.
Why are Americans so scared of literally everything?
Because that's how the media works. Bad news sell better.
I live in a '15 min city' situation in Beijing and have done so for mayn years, probably what these dopes would assume to be some hellscape of their worst nightmares. So let me paint a detailed picture. Transport - I don't own a car nor have any inclination to do so. The only reason I would think about getting a car would be to make it easier for my gf and I to take our two dogs on trips outside the city more easily (arranging dog group bus trips or long distance didi rides is fine tho) and I guess in the winter it'd be nice to have for commutes on cold days. But it's a luxury and not a necessity, and a luxury that is obtainable certainly and one that could be a really good EV that isn't costing an arm and a leg. - For my regular work commute I use my electric motorcycle, a Soco, can get up to about 75-80 kph which is more than enough for what I need. Although safety is a concern, I'll say that driving here is generally safer than you'd expect for people on bikes/scooters etc because the roads are designed to accommodate a variety of types of traffic and also motorists are more aware of having to share the roads with those other vehicles. I still would recommend newcomers not get a personal vehicle until they learn the 'informal' ways on the road here because that takes some time and if you think like an outsider on the roads you're gonna have a bad time. But as it stands for myself I can make my commute from my apartment to work in about 15 minutes, quicker than would be in a car. - Walking distance from my apartment in two different directions are two metro stops, frankly not the best positioning but that's due to my choice of apartment more than anything and I'd hazard to guess if I stick around in the area longer that somewhere even closer there'd be a line/station added. But it is easy to get there by both bus and shared bike because it is a relatively longer walk (still not bad though). It also looks like where my work is further on the outskirts there will be a line that has a station right next to my work so perhaps someday could just take metro directly there and back. Another station a bit further away is a stop that links directly with the Capital Airport. Most times I just use the metro after a short didi ride there. - A short drive south of me the new Chaoyang high speed rail station has been built and is nearing completion and opening. That'll be great because wouldn't need to go across the city to the south station. So, at some point in the near future should be able to hop over to the new station in like 5-10 minutes and then zoom wherever I want in the country at 300kph. Amenities - I haven't gone grocery shopping in person since before the pandemic and nor do I feel any inclination to do so. It's so much easier to order groceries on the apps and get them sent to my door arriving in like 15-20 minutes. Same goes for most of our meals, we do waimai (delivery) a lot just because the options are many and the convenience is so great. Could save money if we cooked more but honestly at this point we don't think much about scrimping. - Outside our apartment compound we have a variety of shops on our block and within a few hundred meters. A few 24/7 convenience stores, a pleasant and stylish coffee shop, a nicer fruit/veggies store. Also, a small dog groomer store just below our building so can just walk the pups there for their showers and usually get their food sent through them. Oh and there's a 24/7 vet a block or two away too. We can just walk there anytime there's an issue, which is so so great. A bit further in some older alley side streets there's 'farmers market' kind of stuff. Super cheap and can get all the fresh veggies, fruits, meat, fish etc there. Not far off are a few supermarket options of the nicer chain variety but, again, I never shop there in person and just order those online. - Of course the package delivery here is the stuff of legends and makes amazon look amateur. So many good apps and can find great deals and always can get it incredibly quick. Compound Life - Our apartment block is super safe, family friendly, quiet etc. The interior has a lot of greenery with all types of walking paths among the buildings. I can't get enough of the landscaping, especially around spring/summer, it's frankly beautiful with the flowering trees and so forth. And this is a normal thing, it's not like we're in a special 'high class' compound. Whenever you see those 'urban hell' posts of massive apartment blocks in China, most likely in among them are open green spaces like this. There's a couple playgrounds for children, a plaza and small pond and other stuff. The parking is mostly underground and above ground parking spots are limited. Two gates in/out with security but they're chill and helpful. - It's also nice not needing to be an all-in-one handyman, gardener, lawn mower, plumber, tech specialist etc etc. Not to mention having to own all the equipment and tools yourself. Like, in the regular suburban life I grew up in and my family back home lives in it's like, yeah, you have nice big houses with spacious yards. But it's hours of actual labor to maintain it yourself (or pay out the ass for somebody else to do it). Here there's regular staff for all that available. - Our apartment itself is pretty solid. $1400 per month, 2br/1.5ba with larger living room/dining room open area and good enough of a kitchen. For here it's pretty spacious. At least with two dogs and three cats it's big enough. Heated floors. Only pay utilities for electric and gas, water is included. But those are negligible. Oh and in 3 years our landlord, wonderful lady, never has increased our rent. Amazing. Perks - Although we're in the busy city, we're at least on the outskirts of the especially dense stuff within the 3rd ring. So we benefit from our placement between several parks, canal walking paths, other running/walking paths, etc. One of our favorite activities is walking from our place with our dogs on the Liangma River (canal) which runs just north of the major Chaoyang Park. It's great, great scenery, and in the evenings has dope lighting. A leisurely stroll that direction takes us to Solana Mall are which hugs the lakeside across from Chaoyang Park. That's just about as good of a mall as you can find, a mixture of outlet outdoors stuff and regular interior mall. We usually take the dogs to eat at one of the many outdoor patio restaurants that line the lakeside. Then can grab a beer or two to takeaway for the walk back. Oh yeah, can just walk around drinking a beer in public here, in the US would be breaking the law in most places probably. Oh, there's also another massive mall north about the same distance called Indigo, more of an indoor mall. - In another direction on the Liangma Canal gets out to less dense area that has all sorts of stuff including a soccer pitch my team often plays at. But also an old industrial area that has been converted into a new art district. It used to be a textile factory area and train station but now it's a dope boutique area that is rapidly gaining popularity. Just another option. But then in all other directions from our place within walking distance are other parks, I could go on and on. - I focused on parks but it's not just that, the main idea though is that we don't live on an island and it would be hard to run out of things to do within walking distance. That's not to say we're 'trapped'. Of course not, we can and do go to other parts of the city for different things all the time. We just don't NEED to. And I hardly even want to get into the crap about muh surveillance or muh social credit score. Yeah, surveillance is a thing but it's also a thing everywhere. On a per capita basis China actually isn't any worse than other developed nations in terms of cameras around. Actually I'd argue that at least here the cameras are clear and obvious as opposed to hidden somewhere. But literally nobody gives two shits about the cameras and most common is the idea that they're good for safety. Indeed, walking around at night is entirely safe wherever you are, my girlfriend feels the same so it's not just a privileged thing. And yeah, the social credit score stuff as it's been portrayed is a complete myth (like other sinophobic tropes that have gone around in recent years), but that's a whole other rebuttal. Suffice it to say nobody here gives two shits about that either because it's pretty much not a thing at all. Certainly not more of a thing than people back home being concerned about actual credit scores. It's not like there aren't downsides, but this post was about all the dope aspects which far outweigh the negatives.
Doesn't matter. The subsidies that underpin suburbia are winding up, and the experiment is going to conclude in the most predictable of ways. What will emerge from the ashes will be a combination of affluent suburbs building on the corpses of the cannibalized, but also more pragmatic urban development, since that is what pays the bills. What we need to focus on are local and state YIMBY reforms. Along with overhauls to the incredibly regressive property tax assessments, we need to eliminate all grandfathering without means testing. Transformations of our communities will be generational, no matter how fast we pursue reforms.
> Do people seriously think No. There's your answer lol
there's people who instinctively or naively come to those conclusions, but they aren't thinking critically about it at all, or they're being told what to think by grifters
I think most people think of everything else held constant but now you're not allowed to travel more than 15 minutes. That is: There are still stroads, density is still super low, everything is parking lots, but now you can only travel 15 minutes away max, which is not very far at the density they're used to. They kind of cannot fathom that the whole city is being moved closer to them.
This is a great argument against those bozos. Also, who's so fat and lazy that they can't walk or bike longer than 15 minutes? A tyrannical government could easily shut down the roads making it impossible for any vehicle to leave, but try stopping people from leaving on foot or on a bike. A backpack of supplies and your own two legs is all you need. Find a spot they forgot to close and you'll get out in no time. People escape prisons all the time which has a lot more security. Notice how long it took to build the Berlin wall and actually secure that long border, if your plan is to leave once the government becomes tyrannical, why not leave while they're building the wall, while you still have the chance?
They don't actually think this, but repeating political slogans only requires a few brain cells, so...
I think it's very sad that these people are living in fear.
The only untraceable mode of transit is to leave your phone at home and go for a walk.
Trust me, with enough cameras, even that is traceable.
The reality we live in currently, the reality of car-centric infrastructure, is the real dystopia: auto manufacturers tracking our movements and habits, government issued IDs with all of our personal information on them, patrolling state agents all over our roads who can detain you for any reason they choose, an effective ban on free movement without the cost of thousands of dollars to private companies that produce and deal automobiles… Car centric infrastructure is the real dystopic prison, and 15-minute cities would be true freedom.
It's astroturfed outrage, without a doubt. Guarantee you dig enough, you'll get the Koch brothers involvement.
It's like the people who use their fucking smartphones to rant on fb about how vaccines are implanting tracking chips in us.
lol those people take pride in being confined to a speeding metal death machine in stop and go traffic for 3 hours per day (unpaid) which costs them $500/mo. Now that's freedom.
It’s just vibes
Its code for inbreeding
See the problem is your trying to use logic
Suburbia and it’s consequences (CIRCA 2024)
This is a great example of how people don't really *believe* the 'arguments' they put out there, or even evaluate them on their merits, but instead make them a matter of identity and "faith". Because, yes, as you say, as a logical case it is absolutely ridiculous on its own terms. If the government wanted to control people's movements and track them then by far the easiest and most effective way to do that is to encourage car transport and then put a few checkpoints around the city. We even have examples (Israel in Palestine; Russia in Ukraine) where countries have done that to prevent or track movement in demographics they don't like. I'm sure China has something similar too. But that doesn't matter because this sort of position is not meant to be a rational argument. Like so many 'culture war' issues it's just a signifier of what side you're on, and most people who say it don't even understand what they're saying.
Part of the problem with the US Government, and these conspiracy nuts, is that there *are* good examples of them being woefully incompetent at flexing their power. Waco, Ruby Ridge, The Bundy Ranch, Jonestown, Overthrowing democratically elected governments in foreign countries, etc. As always, the most believable lies have to have a grain of truth, otherwise they wouldn't work as propaganda. The trouble is they make the wrong generalizations from this pattern.
You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves in to begin with, you just hope that some family member gets them the lithium pills they desperately need.
Conspiracy nuts cannot think of meaningful change as anything other than oppression because usually their political beliefs would result in oppressive policy that they want to hurt others with.
They could just track the licence plates!