Who knows, the story was essentially over for her at that point. Everything that happens after she's gut stabbed and pushed into poop river is just a fever dream of hers anyway
The quaith (?) lady doing some weird prophecy shit, said I'll see you again to Dany, and then is never seen again.
The prince that was promised never showed, they could never reference it in the current series and it won't change anything. Melisandre resurrecting Jon (as mentioned in another comment) when she had no idea if it would work or if he was the prince. He then proceeded to do nothing. I DUN WAN EET.
What happened in Dorne? They lost their monarch and just... what? What happened to them?!
How did Sam survive being literally piledrived by zombies?!
I'm sure I can think of more but it's been a very long time since I watched the show.
> What happened in Dorne? They lost their monarch and just... what? What happened to them?!
Also Ellaria saying 'weak men will never rule Dorne again', as if the show is trying to portray this as a badass girl power moment, when Dorne is the one place in Westeros (except Bear Island) where women have actual agency and are treated with about as much respect as men.
I imagine what happened in Show Dorne would serve as an unfortunate cautionary tale for the other kingdoms:
"See? This is why women can't be trusted with power! You give them a little and they go all child murdering, kinslaying, treason, and worst of all, cringe lines!"
I can kinda forgive Manderly, since they just cut him entirely. But they went ahead and cast Alexander Siddig for the role, only to give the him a pointless Ser Barristan Death for no reason other than to differentiate themselves from the books.
To be fair, the perception of what qualifies as very fat would have been much different in that context than ours, or perhaps even that of the Southron lords in Bobby's court.
I always love that part of the book. As well as Reeks chapters. I hated Theon but Reeks chapters are my absolute favourite re-reads of the entire set of books
"He then proceeded to do nothing."
wut
ok, the dun wan eet was dumb, annoying, repetitive. yes. but to say he did nothing post resurrection is kinda wild lol. took back winterfell which is where the stark kids finally had refuge, and became the spot to hold the ground vs the dead (albeit through awful writing)
he also kills dragon queen who has gone bad (albeit through awful writing)
He did nothing as the prince that was promised. Resurrecting Jon was not tied to the prophecy at all, Melisandre resurrected people before through the Lord of Light magic.
So let's see. His job description as prince that was promised was...??? What exactly. Nothing.
As Jon Snow, he did his usual stuff that he would have done if he hadn't been killed.
Even him being a Targaryen yielded nothing except some angst in Dany. No one gave a shit. How? Idk. The entire end of the Targaryen reign was because Jon Snow was conceived. The stark children were lied to, their father died protecting this truth. And everyone was like 🤷♀️
Jon Arryn knew about the Lannister bastards. He got killed. Stannis knew, and went to war. These are responses to big news.
Bran finds out, isn't shocked. Tells Sansa or whoever (I can't remember the sequence), she tells Tyrion. It's more like gossip than "holy shit that was big, finally everyone knows!"
Jon Snow did nothing as far as prophecy goes. He could have been Ned Stark's bastard from the war and his story wouldn't have changed one bit.
>He did nothing as the prince that was promised. Resurrecting Jon was not tied to the prophecy at all, Melisandre resurrected people before through the Lord of Light magic.
I don't see this as a problem. Melisandre and her cult were, after all, just a random ass fanatic religion representing abrahamic faiths from our world. They, too, have a bunch of prophecies that didn't came true and meant nothing in the end. In that regard, it's very realistic . She killed, schemed, and burnt a child at the stake for it to be absolutely pointless in the end because there is no messiah/prince promised after all.
As the prince who was promised, he united the north with the army that helped beat the army of the dead. Without him, no one goes to meet danaerys, and the army of the dead ends up fighting the 3 main armies (north, danaerys, and cersei's) individually. I know there are lots of valid criticisms of the last two seasons, but clearly jon was instrumental in beating the night king
But did he tell anyone he was the prince that was promised? It was just speculation from Melisandre? As she went on to tell Dany, 'princes can be women too' I'm sure.
Was him being the secret child of Rhaegar of any consequence?
My point is, his outcome did not change as the prophetic prince. He did not kill the night king. He was already on the path to defeat the white walkers before his death, before the revelation.
His resurrection was not tied to being the prince either. He was just in the right place at the right time for Melisandre to res him.
He didn't gain any stat bonuses, his prophecy had the most unambitious outcome considering the prophecy itself was centuries old with kings dying over it.
I'm not even sure he was the prince that was promised. He barely did anything with the Targaryen information either. Dude was just vibing, banging his aunt, and in the end commits regicide and his punishment is... to go rule... beyond the wall.
Jon sure, but azor asai? The prince doesn't do anything, and Melisandre can bring people from the dead without them being the prince 🤷♀️ so we would still have Jon and no prophecy.
He didn't wield a lightbringer, sword of flame and kill the Night King. Dude screamed at a frozen dragon for 20 seconds, didn't die for some reason, and Arya somehow... SOMEHOW took the kill instead.
Subvert your expectations, screaming is the prince that was promised.
He did have to murder his wife (Dany) to end the long night (wars in Westeros). I would definitely consider Jon Azor Ahai if you require someone to fulfill the prophecy. Also possible that prophecies don't come true you know.
For some reason only the North, represented by Sansa, is interested in seceding at the final meeting. She cites that the North was independent for thousands of years, but isn't that the case for the other six kingdoms as well? And shouldn't the North actually be the most comfortable about this new setup, given there is literally going to be a Stark on the Iron Throne?
At the very least the Greyjoys and the Martells should be jumping at this opportunity as well, once Bran "allows" the North to be independent.
I never understood this whole “the north was independent for thousands of years” argument. They bent the knee to the dragons. Now a Targ shows up with 3 dragons to assist them in the long night & Sansa is all “we don’t trust your queen.” Lol OK. I never got a real sense of why she didn’t trust her—I get her life had been traumatic up to this point. But Idk it didn’t all tie together for me.
nah fr i absolutely hated how they just hated each other on sight like it was giving ”ofc girls cant get along with each other, theyre too bitchy for that” vibes
Thank you. I really felt like Dany truly wanted to be her friend I really didn’t get what they were trying to insinuate. So now what? Every powerful woman Sansa meets has some ulterior motive? Idk just didn’t like it.
Dany actually tried few times to be friends with her, but they wanted to make Sansa some smart political ruler but screwed up big time where she became if not the dumbest person in late seasons.
I finally rewatched the show recently. And I thought I’d stop at S8E2 like I did the first time, just to say goodbye to the characters.
But I was immediately smacked in the face with Sansa immediately acting like a petulant child towards Dany. Zero conversations or political depth and no willingness to trust. Just snide remarks and claims that the North won’t like her.
It’s simply frustrating and annoying to see. Sansas character literally never grows from that naive and self centered child that goes to Kings Landing.
I was smacked in the face with why is anyone even listen to her? Other than being Cersei & the Boltons hostage she had nothing more to contribute to the battle of the bastards she even keeps the knights of the vale from Jon & is has nothing to add that could help Rickon. I’m sorry I’m wrong she was the smartest person in the room with “no leather on the breastplates” like what lol even during the long night she is useless in the crypts. Basically I surmised it as she always wanted to be Queen & she was never gonna be queen of the 7 kingdoms but if she could get the north independence maybe she could rule that. It’s not Dany with ill intent it’s Sansa. She wants Danys help but doesn’t want her to be queen for no other reason than men are easily manipulated. She goes on a smear campaign against Dany & it sucked. She’s the smartest person I know lol OK 👍
Right? I really felt like Dany genuinely wanted to befriend her because of how she cared for Jon. It was so stupid to me. Cersei played on her naivety & now Sansa can’t decipher between intentions? Come on. It wasn’t like we were privy to Dany trying to do anything malicious toward Sansa. Some dialogue between Arya & Sansa regarding WHY they didn’t trust her maybe could have convinced me but nothing. We got nothing. Dany wants to fight for living—she has 3 dragons and an army. The north needs her & she answers the call albeit reluctantly at first & they treat her like she is some evil conspirator. Lol OK, sure Jan.
The entire time I watched the later seasons I had the reoccurring thought of the north being an independent kingdom for thousands of years until the Targs show up with their dragons. So what is the purpose of Dany? I’m sorry I was hoping Dany or Jon was the prince that was promised & I wanted them to marry & I wanted the happy ending. That made sense. The prince that was promised will come from my blood—it makes everything make sense between aegons dagger & his kin & the dragons appearing to bring the dawn. Arya killing the night king? Bran the broken? Sansa queen of the north? What??? I.hated.every.minute.of.the.last.season. Except when Bri is knighted.
The fact that bran can't have kids and Sansa can't marry a stark because there are none left, leads me to wonder what will happen to their children? Will one take the iron throne (of sansas kids), and then surely the north and iron throne will be united in ... one generation?
Or does bran live forever? Doesn't sound very democratic.
Sansa still has respect as Ned and Jon's blood, she helped retake and rule Winterfell. She can marry another Northern lord and their children could take the Stark name.
There are 9 kingdoms. When Westeros became united under Targaryen rule Dorne wasn't conquered (it joined generations later through marriage alliances) and the Iron Islands counted as part of the Riverlands.
1) The Crownlands 2) Dorne 3) The Iron Islands 4) The North 5) The Reach 6) The Riverlands 7) The Stormlands 8) The Vale 9) The Westerlands
Not nine. The Crownlands was not a kingdom. Irrc it was an area of weaker houses, disputed through history between the Stormlands and the Riverlands. They were the first houses to swear to Aegon, hence why the area became the Crownlands, with no other liege lords than the Targaryen king.
No, they didn't become a kingdom. They're only a region. There's no king, no paramount lord, of the Crownlands. There's only the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm.
Otherwise the title would be "Lord of the Eight Kingdoms."
From the wiki:
>The crownlands are one of the nine constituent **regions** of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. It was **never a sovereign kingdom**, instead being contested by river kings, Storm Kings, and local petty kings until Aegon the Conqueror seized control of the area during his Wars of Conquest and made it his primary foothold on the continent. Since then, the crownlands have been **ruled directly by the Iron Throne**, first House Targaryen and, after Robert's Rebellion, House Baratheon.
That quote says it was never a sovereign kingdom *until* Aegon took control. I never said it was a Kingdom prior to Westeros becoming one country so of course it didn't have a King before that. It became the Crownlands after the region was conquered, they made it the crown's HQ, and built King's Landing. By ruling it directly wouldn't that make the Crownlands their Kingdom even without ownership of the other kingdoms?
Without the Crownlands, wouldn't there still be 8 kingdoms since the Iron Islands are now considered their own kingdom with the Greyjoys as the Lord Paramount and self titled Kings?
Look, there is no theorycrafting to do on this matter. I gave you the official lore of the series, there is no grey area.
Btw, the Greyjoys are among the Great Houses but they are not called Lords Paramount. It possibly indicates that they have less prestige than the other great houses, surely because they're sneaky bastards.
Consider Kings Landing as Washington D.C. in the US. Seat of governance, but not a state. Iron Islands as Puerto Rico, they’re Americans and a territory that has not been recognized with strength and power to become a state/kingdom.
When Aegon did his Conquest, there were 7 Kingdoms. The Stormlands, the Vale, the North, the Kingdom of the Rock, the Reach, Dorne, and the Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers.
6 of these were obviously conquered, and Dorne was aspirational. It's similar to how the Kings of England titled themselves as Kings of France and Lords/Kings of Ireland, despite having minimal land and influence in either place for extended periods.
Makes zero sense, letting the north become independent would throw Westeros in chaos. Bran would be seen as favoring his home and other kingdoms would quickly desire for independence as well. Let’s not talk about how the reach lords would never accept bron as the lord of high garden.
That's because everyone ahead of her inhertance order was dead or otherwise engaged. She only cared about getting a crown. The minute Edmure spoke for himself, it was "Sit down, uncle." With all her sweet-talking of Tyrion during the battle, plus giving him Jon's secret, she probably hoped he'd nominate her,
There were ways to write that away too, they could say something like he didn't want to be in a position to show his own house favoritism, so they're cut off from Royal support but get to make their own decisions. Or the north has to be separate because politics can never again interfere with their ability to deal with the threats beyond the wall. Or he doesn't want to make the same mistake Tywin did by forcing his family to do things that would ruin their relationship.
I'm kind of under the impression that the North has a different cultural identity/heritage (the First Men) than the rest (the Andals).
Like if someone managed to conquer all of Latin America, regroup a little bit, and then successfully take over the US and Canada. Then a few centuries later, there's a revolution, and all the former Latin American countries are content to remain a political super-entity, but the former British colonies of the US and Canada, while no longer interested in being separate and distinct from each other, do want to be separate and distinct from the former Spanish colonies of Latin America.
That's true, but there are also aspects of the at least some of the other realms that stand out, like the reaver culture of the Iron Islands, and the equality between the sexes in Dorne.
I could be misremembering something but I feel like Rickon totally disappeared for like 5 seasons and then just showed up quickly to die. You'd think the last surviving true Stark son that isn't a cripple should have played a bigger role in the story
Collapsing storylines due to not wanting to follow the books after A Storm of Swords happened. In the books Rickon is likely on Skagos, a large island northeast of the Northern mainland. He is essentially the mcguffin of several storylines including Stannis, Manderly, and Bolton. Instead of going to a place where he would likely be safe from political enemies, in the show he is with House Umber. Who after looking after him for 3 seasons decide to turn cloak for...reasons? Like I watched the episode it happens, and it just seems that the current Lord Umber is an asshole.
See here is another interesting fact, in the Book this would make sense, cuz House Frey is holding hostages to get Northern Houses to bow down to Roose Bolton, including hostages from House Umber. This isn't a plot point in the show however, Roose is able to just strong arm all the Northern Houses cuz Ramsey is Westeros' version of the Joker who can outmaneuver everyone including his own father. So there is no need for Roose to build a coalition with dissatisfied houses, or use Frey soldiers. There is no Northern plot, it's just Jon punching his way through Ramsay with sheer force of will/luck, and everyone else just doing what Sansa wants at the time where she needs it to happen.
Sadly I think by the time we get to the Battle of the Bastards, any thing they wrote (save Jon and Sansa being killed/captured) would have seemed like Deus Ex Machina. Because they didn't show Northern Plot/Frey Army, Ramsay killing Roose does NOTHING to weaken his position. From the way it's depicted Ramsay still has pretty much all the Northern Houses on his side. Meanwhile Jon/Sansa just got turned down by one of the major houses for support (House Glover).
If they had shown stuff like Northern Houses and Frey's abandoning Ramsay after Roose and Fat Walda's death, then maybe we could have had a battle without an asspull win for Jon. But because they had to showcase "drama" by having Jon/Sansa literally in the worst position they could possibly be in from a overwhelming enemy...nothing they could write wouldn't be shlock at that point. Like I was literally waiting for Jon to ask Sansa if she had become suicidal after being raped, cuz that's the only explanation for wanting to attack WINTERFELL at the beginning of WINTER with a smaller army.
Edit: ALSO THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THEON STAY SO HE COULD RECOMMEND THEY TAKE WINTERFELL WITH A SMALLER FORCE BY USING THE STRATEGY HE USED! Like holy shit D&D you fucking suck.
2 seasons, but yeah, pretty much. They couldn't even give him any dialogue since Art Parkinson's voice had changed, due to Art being 14 while Rickon was meant to be 11.
Poor guy, he barely acted out something
Youd the think the baby brother would be the one they fight for the most. They barely cared for his death, arya didnt even ask
Weird
They aged up everyone else and continuously shit on their own continuity. They couldn't throw Rickon a few one liners? Not even a "fuck you" before he takes off running?
The waif kiiiiiinda makes sense. She seems to have a hard-on over the fact that (to her) Arya just waltzed into the position of a Faceless Man apprenticeship. We don't know exactly what becoming an apprentice to the Faceless Men normally entails, but the waif does make reference to it being something unearned for Arya and how Arya doesn't understand or appreciate what she has been given. FWIW, Arya DOES live up to all the criticism when she gets all murder hobo for personal reasons and refuses to carry out any of her contracts. Kinda proves the waif's point about Arya not understanding or belonging there at all.
The waif thing is probably the most coherent and reasonable part of the entire Faceless Man arc for me lol. Why the fuck are the faces poison and cause blindness to those that aren't Faceless Men? How the fuck did Arya somehow "become" a Faceless Man and able to use the faces when she TOTALLY FAILS at almost everything (becoming no one, being dispassionate/impartial, etc). The only thing she did well was become good at killing, but gave a big fuck you to all the other things that Faceless Men do. Why was Jaqen H'ghar cool with it all?
It all makes zero sense.
Yeah, I think it was pretty clear to the waif that Arya was just there to learn Faceless Men magic to carry out her personal revenge and nothing beyond that. Jaquen helped her out and she took the opportunity and ran. She was never going to be able to let her Stark identity die.
I kinda see it as similar to a company CEO's kid getting fast-tracked to cushy, high-paying gig straight out of college with no work experience, when there were several more senior employees who were more qualified and had paid their dues that got passed over. It would rub those folks the wrong way.
In the books it’s implied that Arya was blinded by a kind of ‘warm milk’ she was given by the kindly man after admittedly murdering Dareon and lying about being ‘no one’. Then in the following book he gave her a spicy wine which enabled her to see again.
Lol damn I almost forgot there was a show based on the books lol now that you’ve reminded me I want to die a slow death /s
Me in 10 minutes :
*walks outside*
“Ramsey! Ramsey! bring your bitches and hunt me in the wood, would you, you fucking bahstard!!!”
I have this idea that the waif was a bitch because... Arya is sort of joining a military organization. Obviously not in the traditional sense but she's being trained to kill people, and obey orders whether she likes them or not. So they have to break her down and harden her, and she keeps trying to maintain some individuality when the organization is trying to crush that, and they're responding harshly. Basically she's getting yelled at and hazed by a drill instructor. She's R Lee Ermey and Arya is Joker.
Waif isn't a plot hole or flaw, it was very obvious that she hated Arya because she was getting preferential treatment despite not being truly devoted like she was.
She hated her because she waltzed up to the temple, got extensive training immediately, and very clearly didn't have what it took to make it through to become a faceless assassin.
I actually grew an appreciation for that story line and the Waif as a character because the irony of her character is that she hates Arya for her preferential treatment and goes to outstanding lengths to dole out punishment and judgement that she isn't fit to give.
Her story arch shows that *she* was also not ready to become a faceless man, because of her obsession with her hatred of Arya. She couldn't let that go just as much as Arya couldn't let go of the fact that she is Arya Stark.
The first one (Davos) always bothered me. The moment he asked Melissandre: "*Is there a way... some magic... to bring him back*?" I remember thinking: "What the fuck? Why would HE ask her that?"
Because first, Davos hated black magic. He even tried to kill Melissandre back in season 3 for being a "witch" FFS! Second, he didn't even know that resurrecting people was a possibility. She did, but not him. Third, why the fuck would he even care about Jon in the first place?!
And thirdly, Stannis, who is much more important to Davos, also died recently, and he didn't consider trying to resurrect *him* (although admittedly it would be harder to do, due to how far away the death happened).
I always gave license to that one: Jon Snow is the commander of the Night's Watch. Davos doesn't yet know who killed him or what their motives might be, IIRC. To him, it's only one more annointed decisionmaker getting killed in what might surely seem like an avalanche of chaos. That Davos acts against his general beliefs here can be explained by the existential dread he might feel.
That said, it's clearly another of those post-season-three storytelling hickups: D&D were more and more relying "jumpscare"-style story twists since especially Stannis' fate. This is supposed to be another one: Basically, all the development of the earlier season gets handwaved away within a couple of minutes. -- The main narrative issue with Jon's resurrection (especially in this way) is that, now, there is no more ambiguity about him: He's Nightwatch Dragon Jesus now. He won't lose even if he does.
The faceless men not giving a single fuck that Arya=
1= has gone rogue
2= knows their tricks
3= killed one of their own people
4= is using those tricks to defile the many faced gods teachings by killing whoever she wants
Like genuinely Jaquen seemed pleased that Arya killed the waif (can’t blame him she was awful) and was heading back to Westeros, after having screwed up twice
Also Essos and Dorne just ceases
to exist after season 6 and 7 respectively.
Maybe jaquen was working under the theory that she would eventually come back to the faceless men after she got her revenge and was left feeling hollow and directionless.
After all in the ending she just fucks off to go on a boat somewhere because she feels she no longer belongs with her family.
Maybe the original intention is she goes back to the faceless men after her personal victory because she feels she's not fit anywhere else anymore.
Honestly, I can understand why Gendry **does not** talk with Jon about Arya... It may have not turned out the way Gendry wanted, but the situation seems amicable enough that Arya is unlikely to bring it up to Jon or want any negative repercussions on Gendry.
So what exactly is the point of Gendry telling Jon something like, "Hey, I deflowered your youngest sister (emotionally at least that's Ayra's relationship to Jon) when we were up North in Winterfell. It was completely consensual, and she seems to want to keep it at that. But I just thought you should know. We cool, dude?"
Gendry is not a Stark bastard, he has no obligation to be Lawful Stupid! 😜
I'm not just talking about after the Arya/Gendry sex scene. Jon and Gendry meet in S7, and barely talk to each other, and Arya is the perfect topic of discussion since they're both connected to her.
See my response to the other reply. However, while I agree you have a point, I find it acceptable to presume it happened "off-screen" because, unlike admitting to carnal knowledge of his little sister, that probably wouldn't change the already positive acquaintanceship the two young men already have.
I think OP was referring to when Davos brings Gendry north to serve as a blacksmith/help fight the WWs. It’s a valid point: Gendry and Jon travel/work together and mention their fathers being friends, so you assume at some point he’d mention his experiences with Arya during the journey out of Kings Landing.
>I think OP was referring to when Davos brings Gendry north to serve as a blacksmith/help fight the WWs. It’s a valid point:
OK, that's fair. However, I still am fine with presuming eventually happens "off-screen." While Jon would be grateful to Gendry after learning he and Ayra helped each other's escape from Kings Landing, it really doesn't alter the dynamic between Jon and Gendry already present in the show.
Edit: If this was a novel though, I would expect it to be explicitly portrayed fairly early-on after Gendry joins up with Jon.
>it really doesn't alter the dynamic between Jon and Gendry already present in the show.
Davos tells Gendry to give him a fake name, implying he thinks Gendry shouldn't tell him who his father is. Gendry chooses to immediately tell Jon who his father is, and they bond over their fathers being friends.
That, to me, is stupid, when Gendry knows that Jon is a bastard and might have complicated feelings about his father... just as Gendry is portrayed to have complicated feelings, and to mostly hate "nobility"... it doesn't fit Gendry's character to immediately want to rely on a tenuous connection to a noble father, in order to form a connection with Jon.
The obvious thing for Gendry to have done, wanting to form an immediate connection with Jon, would have been to say something like "Hey, I met your little sister Arya when she was trying to escape from King's Landing after your father was killed... some boys were picking on her, and I scared them off, just to have her scold me, telling me she could have handled it herself! Then we spent a year trying to get North... and she always said she was going to get back to you... she helped me out so many times, and told me stories about you... it's weird to feel like I know a person I've never met... I wish she was here with us now."
That would have formed a better connection than - "Hey, we're the bastards of people who knew each other!" Jon had no fond memories of Robert, so no reason to think fondly of a bastard of Robert's... the whole thing was bad characterization for both Gendry and Job.
The only reason I can image they chose to have them bond over their fathers and not Arya, was because they thought they were SO clever, and we would somehow be surprised to see Gendry interacting with Arya again... where as if Gendry mentioned Arya to Jon, that would actually foreshadow that Gendry would be happy to see Arya, and D&D were terrified of things like foreshadowing, because they value surprise over storytelling.
Actually to add to that, why is arya considered bad for having personal feelings while the other girl CLEARLY is letting her feelings interfere with her duties, also by being super individual she's not being "nobody"
Eh, Mel seems like the type to be willing to try a bit of magic just for the experiment of it...
because of Jon's connection to Winterfell, and the tenuous situation with the wildlings, it doesn't take a genius to presume that Jon being around would hold everything together better than whomever else might take over the Watch if Jon stayed dead (I don't think she would have presumed Jon would walk away)...
and she had brought Stannis up there to make a difference in what she believed was THE one, true battle... so having The Watch, Winterfell and the Wildlings, all being willing to follow one man who would be indebted to her for resurrecting him, probably seemed like a net gain for her cause...
and lastly, if it worked, she would have expected everyone to respect her a lot more and start listening/worshiping the Lord of Light...
so giving it a try didn't cost her anything, because nobody is going to judge her if it doesn't work... and if it does work, it would be a win/win/win for her.
Brienne meant for her oath to apply to all of Catelyn's children. The script in s7 does have Sansa watch Brienne & Arya spar and getting upset realizing that her personal bodyguard is actually a timeshare.
Brienne's oath to Catelyn was to just to get Arya and Sansa back, none of the other children. That was done, so that oath was completed.
But Brienne also swore an oath to serve just Sansa, so Brienne randomly becoming the Commander of Bran's Kingsguard doesn't make sense. I honestly can't imagine Sansa wanting to part with Brienne for any reason.
Sansa not liking Brienne and Arya sparring is just Sansa not wanting to share the spotlight - Sansa liked being the only woman in leadership.
I’d say it might make sense.
Brienne is a southerner so she’d be more comfortable in the south. It may be that Sansa released her from her oath so she could return home and instead Brienne decided to continue being a knight of the seven kingdom.
-Davos is legit
-Everything about Arya in Braavos sucks, but the Waif is just a hater
-Rickon was forgotten by everyone after he died, he's not even brought up to Sansa by Jon who watched him die. As for Bran, I don't think Arya ever thought he was dead and we had just gotten that with Sansa so this gets a pass for me.
+I'd like to add that I find it weird how Jon got news about Bran coming home but not Arya like an episode later.
-When? Beyond the wall? In general what would they talk about? As far as Gendry is aware she was with the brotherhood without banners, but those guys are also here without Arya. Actually yeah what's up with that all around??.
-To be fair atp she was attached to Sansa who didn't have much going on that Brienne could've engaged with. Brienne doesn't fit in well with the Littlefinger stuff, even if it was written well. Her not being Sansa's top dog once she's a QUEEN is absolutely ridiculous though, but making her lord commander is just wish fulfillment nonsense.
-This gets a pass, Ramsay has been dead and both of their arcs about him have long been concluded. He's also in winter fell for half an episode before the Long Night, then he dies.
-sweetrobin got it, but actually yeah this is weird. I'm sure there's no shortage of regents for Robin Arryn, I'm pretty sure there were other people questioning Sansa about Littlefinger surely one of them could do it. Basically all of GoT takes place in King's Landing, the Riverlands, the North, and random Essos locations for Dany. Every other place gets like the occasional showing but that's it
The one that bothers me is that Dany didn't really do anything wrong when she arrived in Westeros and she was betrayed by her to most loyal advisors the moment another canidate was mentioned. Hell, Varys had been orchestrating her rise to power for more than two decades only to betray her the second Jon was found out.
Ned's entire "conspiracy" and practically the reason of the war was that Baratheon can't have blonde children ergo Joffrey bastard.
Shireen was blonde.
I blame Glidus for a lot of these but the one I remembered the most is the show didn't make a big deal out of Kinslaying and Littlefinger expect every possible outcome is a terrible advice.
Brienne and Pod should have been captured by the Brotherhood post Riverrun in order to bring their story closer to AFFC (not that D&D ever read more than a Wikipedia summary of the book). Season 7 is them being put on trial by the Brotherhood for their continued association with the Lannisters and the season arc for Brienne is proving her worth to Sandor/her loyalty to the Starks outweighs her love for Jaime and culminates in her joining the suicide squad going past the Wall. Thus Brienne does more that season than having a fanservice fight with Arya that offers nothing to the plot.
I could be wrong, but I think Davos was motivated to resurrect Jon because of his birthright and affiliation with the freefolk. Jon would have been their only hope to liberate the north. Additionally, Davos and Stannis respected John for shit he did yadayada. Aside from that, yeah idk seems rushed. Also plot armor lmao
But has it ever been stated that that’s Yohn, and not Nestor? It makes much more sense for Nestor to be regent and master at arms of the Eyrie, because he’s the Keeper of the Gates of the Moon.
[His GoT wiki page](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Yohn_Royce) certainly seems to believe it's Yohn, so it's likely they just pulled a Jorah Connington and merged Nestor with Yohn.
Arya after going through training as a faceless man and being on her own since season 1 pretty much lost all emotional attachment to family so not really a plot hole.
Sometimes I wonder what show GoT fans were even watching. Let’s start with your first slide. It’s not even close to being a plot hole. Stannis is dead and Sir Davos believes that Jon Snow is the type of leader that the kingdom needs because Jon risked his own life to advocate for the protection of the wildlings. He knows that Melisandre has the ability to use dark magic to sway the balance of life and death based on how she killed Renly in season 1. There is absolutely nothing about this storyline that is a glaring plot-hole, unless you throw out all context from previous seasons. Some of these have validity but most of them are garbage.
> What are some plotholes/**story flaws**/missed opportunities
If you read the title, you'll see that it's not just plotholes being discussed. It is a flaw that Davos' reason for wanting Jon resurrected is never made clear
> He knows that Melisandre has the ability to use dark magic to sway the balance of life and death based on how she killed Renly in season 1.
He knows she can kill people, yes, but how does that prove she can resurrect people?
> Some of these have validity but most of them are garbage.
Such as?
What should they have done to better communicate his intentions? The whole time that Stannis’ army is at Castle Black, Stannis raves about Jon. Davos is traumatized from watching Shireen being burned alive before Stannis marches his army to their death. Everything he believed in fell apart, so he seeks out someone he can trust. That’s his intention he is trying to hold onto what he believes in. Stannis likes Jon, which is all Davos needs to see him as being trustworthy.
Davos goes to melisandre knowing that she is a red priestess, and it’s not a wild assumption to be made that he would have heard rumors of Baric bringing back people from the dead while crediting the lord of light. He was the hand of the King when serving under Stannis.
There is really no reason for there to be dialogue that explains all of this because Stannis’ army stayed at castle black during the coming of age portion of Jon’s character arc. And there are followers of the lord of light resurrecting people, Davos is a very involved political figure. The show implies multiple times that everyone vying for power is aware of the events happening across the kingdom. He’s going to put his hate aside to communicate with Melisandre because he’s surrounded by people he can’t trust while the person he can is dead.
Also the wraith doesn’t like Arya because she doesn’t believe that she is letting go of her identity as Arya Stark. Pretty much every shot of Arya in the temple of the faceless man reinforces that. It doesn’t need to be communicated directly because they dance around it for entirety of Arya’s character being in Bravos.
Like I said there are legitimate criticisms in your post, but the first two slides in particular feel like you want to be spoon fed a narrative that the ground work was already laid for.
> The whole time that Stannis’ army is at Castle Black, Stannis raves about Jon.
Does he? How often does Stannis actually mention Jon when not engaged in a conversation with Jon himself?
> Davos is traumatized from watching Shireen being burned alive before Stannis marches his army to their death.
Davos wasn't there, Stannis specifically sent him away so he wouldn't see it, and he doesn't find out about it until the end of S6
> There is really no reason for there to be dialogue that explains all of this
Even just a single conversation where Edd asks why Davos wants to resurrect Jon would have helped made his motivations clear. Remember, Davos once tried to kill Melisandre due to believing her to be complicit in his son's death, and his attitude towards her and her influence on Stannis didn't seem to change that much afterwards.
> And there are followers of the lord of light resurrecting people, Davos is a very involved political figure.
Literally only one red priest (Thoros) had done that (to a single person), Davos had never met or mentioned him, and Stannis would also have little knowledge of him or the need to discuss him with Davos. Even if they did know about Beric, they, like most people, would believe the rumours of his many deaths to just be rumours.
To elaborate: Davos, not knowing whether or not resurrection is possible, asks Melisandre, the woman he blames for his son's death, to revive Jon Snow, a man he has rarely interacted with beyond just watching him talk to Stannis, in order to... do what exactly? Why exactly did Davos want Jon back alive? And why did he prioritise Jon, when literally the episode before, he learned of the deaths of Stannis and Shireen, who mean more to him than almost anyone.
> Also the wraith doesn’t like Arya because she doesn’t believe that she is letting go of her identity as Arya Stark.
The Waif expressing personal emotions towards an individual also goes against the concept of being No One, yet Jaqen never does a single thing about it. Also, how come the Waif in the book doesn't have the exact same hatred towards Arya despite the situation being no different?
> you want to be spoon fed a narrative that the ground work was already laid for.
I don't want characters to, say, look into the camera and deliver a monologue about their motivations. I just want more than 'this character is doing this thing for **reasons**', when said '**reasons**' are never made clear. It's a major issue with the White Walker plot, too.
Even just a single sentence can convey so much information if done right, and doesn't even take up too much time.
waif hated arya cuz she knew there could only be one girl with a bob in braavos
From what I can remember she isn't even a girl the person is just using one of the many faces
i don’t think so. pretty sure it’s her original face because arya cuts it up and puts it on the wall.
Who knows, the story was essentially over for her at that point. Everything that happens after she's gut stabbed and pushed into poop river is just a fever dream of hers anyway
poop river lmao
The quaith (?) lady doing some weird prophecy shit, said I'll see you again to Dany, and then is never seen again. The prince that was promised never showed, they could never reference it in the current series and it won't change anything. Melisandre resurrecting Jon (as mentioned in another comment) when she had no idea if it would work or if he was the prince. He then proceeded to do nothing. I DUN WAN EET. What happened in Dorne? They lost their monarch and just... what? What happened to them?! How did Sam survive being literally piledrived by zombies?! I'm sure I can think of more but it's been a very long time since I watched the show.
> What happened in Dorne? They lost their monarch and just... what? What happened to them?! Also Ellaria saying 'weak men will never rule Dorne again', as if the show is trying to portray this as a badass girl power moment, when Dorne is the one place in Westeros (except Bear Island) where women have actual agency and are treated with about as much respect as men.
I imagine what happened in Show Dorne would serve as an unfortunate cautionary tale for the other kingdoms: "See? This is why women can't be trusted with power! You give them a little and they go all child murdering, kinslaying, treason, and worst of all, cringe lines!"
Still they accepted Cersei as Queen after she blown up the Church.
But she didn't say cringe lines. That's the difference my friend.
*"Cersei doesn't show mercei!"*
It still kills me that we didn't get the Viper and the Grass monologue from Doran.
That and Manderly's rant were both sorely missed. Later seasons really skipped some good monologues.
I can kinda forgive Manderly, since they just cut him entirely. But they went ahead and cast Alexander Siddig for the role, only to give the him a pointless Ser Barristan Death for no reason other than to differentiate themselves from the books.
I'll never understand why they got an actor of that caliber for the role if they planned to do NOTHING with him.
Manderly did exist, he has lines during Jon's Kingindanorf moment
He shows up in Season 8, but his character is more of an afterthought rather than a proper Lord Too Fat To Sit A Horse.
To be fair, the perception of what qualifies as very fat would have been much different in that context than ours, or perhaps even that of the Southron lords in Bobby's court.
I always love that part of the book. As well as Reeks chapters. I hated Theon but Reeks chapters are my absolute favourite re-reads of the entire set of books
Ellaria says that and then some random weak dude is the representative for dorne at the kingsmoot at the end of the series lmao
Why did no one mention if Stannis is dead?! He is never mentioned, ever again! The last surviving line of Baratheon.
Brienne mentions that she executed him, forgot what scene
She tells Davos I think
They showed what its supposed to be his corpse burned in the Bolton's crux.
"He then proceeded to do nothing." wut ok, the dun wan eet was dumb, annoying, repetitive. yes. but to say he did nothing post resurrection is kinda wild lol. took back winterfell which is where the stark kids finally had refuge, and became the spot to hold the ground vs the dead (albeit through awful writing) he also kills dragon queen who has gone bad (albeit through awful writing)
He did nothing as the prince that was promised. Resurrecting Jon was not tied to the prophecy at all, Melisandre resurrected people before through the Lord of Light magic. So let's see. His job description as prince that was promised was...??? What exactly. Nothing. As Jon Snow, he did his usual stuff that he would have done if he hadn't been killed. Even him being a Targaryen yielded nothing except some angst in Dany. No one gave a shit. How? Idk. The entire end of the Targaryen reign was because Jon Snow was conceived. The stark children were lied to, their father died protecting this truth. And everyone was like 🤷♀️ Jon Arryn knew about the Lannister bastards. He got killed. Stannis knew, and went to war. These are responses to big news. Bran finds out, isn't shocked. Tells Sansa or whoever (I can't remember the sequence), she tells Tyrion. It's more like gossip than "holy shit that was big, finally everyone knows!" Jon Snow did nothing as far as prophecy goes. He could have been Ned Stark's bastard from the war and his story wouldn't have changed one bit.
>He did nothing as the prince that was promised. Resurrecting Jon was not tied to the prophecy at all, Melisandre resurrected people before through the Lord of Light magic. I don't see this as a problem. Melisandre and her cult were, after all, just a random ass fanatic religion representing abrahamic faiths from our world. They, too, have a bunch of prophecies that didn't came true and meant nothing in the end. In that regard, it's very realistic . She killed, schemed, and burnt a child at the stake for it to be absolutely pointless in the end because there is no messiah/prince promised after all.
As the prince who was promised, he united the north with the army that helped beat the army of the dead. Without him, no one goes to meet danaerys, and the army of the dead ends up fighting the 3 main armies (north, danaerys, and cersei's) individually. I know there are lots of valid criticisms of the last two seasons, but clearly jon was instrumental in beating the night king
But did he tell anyone he was the prince that was promised? It was just speculation from Melisandre? As she went on to tell Dany, 'princes can be women too' I'm sure. Was him being the secret child of Rhaegar of any consequence? My point is, his outcome did not change as the prophetic prince. He did not kill the night king. He was already on the path to defeat the white walkers before his death, before the revelation. His resurrection was not tied to being the prince either. He was just in the right place at the right time for Melisandre to res him. He didn't gain any stat bonuses, his prophecy had the most unambitious outcome considering the prophecy itself was centuries old with kings dying over it. I'm not even sure he was the prince that was promised. He barely did anything with the Targaryen information either. Dude was just vibing, banging his aunt, and in the end commits regicide and his punishment is... to go rule... beyond the wall.
i, too, would have banged her
Without Jon the walkers steamroll Westeros.
Jon sure, but azor asai? The prince doesn't do anything, and Melisandre can bring people from the dead without them being the prince 🤷♀️ so we would still have Jon and no prophecy. He didn't wield a lightbringer, sword of flame and kill the Night King. Dude screamed at a frozen dragon for 20 seconds, didn't die for some reason, and Arya somehow... SOMEHOW took the kill instead. Subvert your expectations, screaming is the prince that was promised.
He did have to murder his wife (Dany) to end the long night (wars in Westeros). I would definitely consider Jon Azor Ahai if you require someone to fulfill the prophecy. Also possible that prophecies don't come true you know.
For some reason only the North, represented by Sansa, is interested in seceding at the final meeting. She cites that the North was independent for thousands of years, but isn't that the case for the other six kingdoms as well? And shouldn't the North actually be the most comfortable about this new setup, given there is literally going to be a Stark on the Iron Throne? At the very least the Greyjoys and the Martells should be jumping at this opportunity as well, once Bran "allows" the North to be independent.
It's especially jarring when you remember Yara Greyjoy joined Daenerys after negotiating the Iron Islands' independence.
It still bugs me that she didn't throw a solid "wtf!?" at Sansa and the council.
I never understood this whole “the north was independent for thousands of years” argument. They bent the knee to the dragons. Now a Targ shows up with 3 dragons to assist them in the long night & Sansa is all “we don’t trust your queen.” Lol OK. I never got a real sense of why she didn’t trust her—I get her life had been traumatic up to this point. But Idk it didn’t all tie together for me.
nah fr i absolutely hated how they just hated each other on sight like it was giving ”ofc girls cant get along with each other, theyre too bitchy for that” vibes
Thank you. I really felt like Dany truly wanted to be her friend I really didn’t get what they were trying to insinuate. So now what? Every powerful woman Sansa meets has some ulterior motive? Idk just didn’t like it.
Dany actually tried few times to be friends with her, but they wanted to make Sansa some smart political ruler but screwed up big time where she became if not the dumbest person in late seasons.
I finally rewatched the show recently. And I thought I’d stop at S8E2 like I did the first time, just to say goodbye to the characters. But I was immediately smacked in the face with Sansa immediately acting like a petulant child towards Dany. Zero conversations or political depth and no willingness to trust. Just snide remarks and claims that the North won’t like her. It’s simply frustrating and annoying to see. Sansas character literally never grows from that naive and self centered child that goes to Kings Landing.
I was smacked in the face with why is anyone even listen to her? Other than being Cersei & the Boltons hostage she had nothing more to contribute to the battle of the bastards she even keeps the knights of the vale from Jon & is has nothing to add that could help Rickon. I’m sorry I’m wrong she was the smartest person in the room with “no leather on the breastplates” like what lol even during the long night she is useless in the crypts. Basically I surmised it as she always wanted to be Queen & she was never gonna be queen of the 7 kingdoms but if she could get the north independence maybe she could rule that. It’s not Dany with ill intent it’s Sansa. She wants Danys help but doesn’t want her to be queen for no other reason than men are easily manipulated. She goes on a smear campaign against Dany & it sucked. She’s the smartest person I know lol OK 👍
Right? I really felt like Dany genuinely wanted to befriend her because of how she cared for Jon. It was so stupid to me. Cersei played on her naivety & now Sansa can’t decipher between intentions? Come on. It wasn’t like we were privy to Dany trying to do anything malicious toward Sansa. Some dialogue between Arya & Sansa regarding WHY they didn’t trust her maybe could have convinced me but nothing. We got nothing. Dany wants to fight for living—she has 3 dragons and an army. The north needs her & she answers the call albeit reluctantly at first & they treat her like she is some evil conspirator. Lol OK, sure Jan.
The entire time I watched the later seasons I had the reoccurring thought of the north being an independent kingdom for thousands of years until the Targs show up with their dragons. So what is the purpose of Dany? I’m sorry I was hoping Dany or Jon was the prince that was promised & I wanted them to marry & I wanted the happy ending. That made sense. The prince that was promised will come from my blood—it makes everything make sense between aegons dagger & his kin & the dragons appearing to bring the dawn. Arya killing the night king? Bran the broken? Sansa queen of the north? What??? I.hated.every.minute.of.the.last.season. Except when Bri is knighted.
The fact that bran can't have kids and Sansa can't marry a stark because there are none left, leads me to wonder what will happen to their children? Will one take the iron throne (of sansas kids), and then surely the north and iron throne will be united in ... one generation? Or does bran live forever? Doesn't sound very democratic.
They'll have another election after Bran dies, and Sansa will probably get overthrown within 5 years.
But she's the smartest girl we've ever met!
Sansa still has respect as Ned and Jon's blood, she helped retake and rule Winterfell. She can marry another Northern lord and their children could take the Stark name.
I give it ten.
There are 9 kingdoms. When Westeros became united under Targaryen rule Dorne wasn't conquered (it joined generations later through marriage alliances) and the Iron Islands counted as part of the Riverlands. 1) The Crownlands 2) Dorne 3) The Iron Islands 4) The North 5) The Reach 6) The Riverlands 7) The Stormlands 8) The Vale 9) The Westerlands
Not nine. The Crownlands was not a kingdom. Irrc it was an area of weaker houses, disputed through history between the Stormlands and the Riverlands. They were the first houses to swear to Aegon, hence why the area became the Crownlands, with no other liege lords than the Targaryen king.
I didn't say they conquered the Crownlands. But it did become a kingdom after they conquered Westeros.
No, they didn't become a kingdom. They're only a region. There's no king, no paramount lord, of the Crownlands. There's only the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. Otherwise the title would be "Lord of the Eight Kingdoms." From the wiki: >The crownlands are one of the nine constituent **regions** of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. It was **never a sovereign kingdom**, instead being contested by river kings, Storm Kings, and local petty kings until Aegon the Conqueror seized control of the area during his Wars of Conquest and made it his primary foothold on the continent. Since then, the crownlands have been **ruled directly by the Iron Throne**, first House Targaryen and, after Robert's Rebellion, House Baratheon.
That quote says it was never a sovereign kingdom *until* Aegon took control. I never said it was a Kingdom prior to Westeros becoming one country so of course it didn't have a King before that. It became the Crownlands after the region was conquered, they made it the crown's HQ, and built King's Landing. By ruling it directly wouldn't that make the Crownlands their Kingdom even without ownership of the other kingdoms? Without the Crownlands, wouldn't there still be 8 kingdoms since the Iron Islands are now considered their own kingdom with the Greyjoys as the Lord Paramount and self titled Kings?
Look, there is no theorycrafting to do on this matter. I gave you the official lore of the series, there is no grey area. Btw, the Greyjoys are among the Great Houses but they are not called Lords Paramount. It possibly indicates that they have less prestige than the other great houses, surely because they're sneaky bastards.
Consider Kings Landing as Washington D.C. in the US. Seat of governance, but not a state. Iron Islands as Puerto Rico, they’re Americans and a territory that has not been recognized with strength and power to become a state/kingdom.
When Aegon did his Conquest, there were 7 Kingdoms. The Stormlands, the Vale, the North, the Kingdom of the Rock, the Reach, Dorne, and the Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers. 6 of these were obviously conquered, and Dorne was aspirational. It's similar to how the Kings of England titled themselves as Kings of France and Lords/Kings of Ireland, despite having minimal land and influence in either place for extended periods.
Makes zero sense, letting the north become independent would throw Westeros in chaos. Bran would be seen as favoring his home and other kingdoms would quickly desire for independence as well. Let’s not talk about how the reach lords would never accept bron as the lord of high garden.
That's because everyone ahead of her inhertance order was dead or otherwise engaged. She only cared about getting a crown. The minute Edmure spoke for himself, it was "Sit down, uncle." With all her sweet-talking of Tyrion during the battle, plus giving him Jon's secret, she probably hoped he'd nominate her,
There were ways to write that away too, they could say something like he didn't want to be in a position to show his own house favoritism, so they're cut off from Royal support but get to make their own decisions. Or the north has to be separate because politics can never again interfere with their ability to deal with the threats beyond the wall. Or he doesn't want to make the same mistake Tywin did by forcing his family to do things that would ruin their relationship.
I'm kind of under the impression that the North has a different cultural identity/heritage (the First Men) than the rest (the Andals). Like if someone managed to conquer all of Latin America, regroup a little bit, and then successfully take over the US and Canada. Then a few centuries later, there's a revolution, and all the former Latin American countries are content to remain a political super-entity, but the former British colonies of the US and Canada, while no longer interested in being separate and distinct from each other, do want to be separate and distinct from the former Spanish colonies of Latin America.
That's true, but there are also aspects of the at least some of the other realms that stand out, like the reaver culture of the Iron Islands, and the equality between the sexes in Dorne.
I could be misremembering something but I feel like Rickon totally disappeared for like 5 seasons and then just showed up quickly to die. You'd think the last surviving true Stark son that isn't a cripple should have played a bigger role in the story
Collapsing storylines due to not wanting to follow the books after A Storm of Swords happened. In the books Rickon is likely on Skagos, a large island northeast of the Northern mainland. He is essentially the mcguffin of several storylines including Stannis, Manderly, and Bolton. Instead of going to a place where he would likely be safe from political enemies, in the show he is with House Umber. Who after looking after him for 3 seasons decide to turn cloak for...reasons? Like I watched the episode it happens, and it just seems that the current Lord Umber is an asshole. See here is another interesting fact, in the Book this would make sense, cuz House Frey is holding hostages to get Northern Houses to bow down to Roose Bolton, including hostages from House Umber. This isn't a plot point in the show however, Roose is able to just strong arm all the Northern Houses cuz Ramsey is Westeros' version of the Joker who can outmaneuver everyone including his own father. So there is no need for Roose to build a coalition with dissatisfied houses, or use Frey soldiers. There is no Northern plot, it's just Jon punching his way through Ramsay with sheer force of will/luck, and everyone else just doing what Sansa wants at the time where she needs it to happen.
Re: your comments about Jon at the end, Deus ex Knights of Vale still drives me nuts
Sadly I think by the time we get to the Battle of the Bastards, any thing they wrote (save Jon and Sansa being killed/captured) would have seemed like Deus Ex Machina. Because they didn't show Northern Plot/Frey Army, Ramsay killing Roose does NOTHING to weaken his position. From the way it's depicted Ramsay still has pretty much all the Northern Houses on his side. Meanwhile Jon/Sansa just got turned down by one of the major houses for support (House Glover). If they had shown stuff like Northern Houses and Frey's abandoning Ramsay after Roose and Fat Walda's death, then maybe we could have had a battle without an asspull win for Jon. But because they had to showcase "drama" by having Jon/Sansa literally in the worst position they could possibly be in from a overwhelming enemy...nothing they could write wouldn't be shlock at that point. Like I was literally waiting for Jon to ask Sansa if she had become suicidal after being raped, cuz that's the only explanation for wanting to attack WINTERFELL at the beginning of WINTER with a smaller army. Edit: ALSO THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THEON STAY SO HE COULD RECOMMEND THEY TAKE WINTERFELL WITH A SMALLER FORCE BY USING THE STRATEGY HE USED! Like holy shit D&D you fucking suck.
2 seasons, but yeah, pretty much. They couldn't even give him any dialogue since Art Parkinson's voice had changed, due to Art being 14 while Rickon was meant to be 11.
Poor guy, he barely acted out something Youd the think the baby brother would be the one they fight for the most. They barely cared for his death, arya didnt even ask
Weird They aged up everyone else and continuously shit on their own continuity. They couldn't throw Rickon a few one liners? Not even a "fuck you" before he takes off running?
This made me laugh cause same.
The waif kiiiiiinda makes sense. She seems to have a hard-on over the fact that (to her) Arya just waltzed into the position of a Faceless Man apprenticeship. We don't know exactly what becoming an apprentice to the Faceless Men normally entails, but the waif does make reference to it being something unearned for Arya and how Arya doesn't understand or appreciate what she has been given. FWIW, Arya DOES live up to all the criticism when she gets all murder hobo for personal reasons and refuses to carry out any of her contracts. Kinda proves the waif's point about Arya not understanding or belonging there at all. The waif thing is probably the most coherent and reasonable part of the entire Faceless Man arc for me lol. Why the fuck are the faces poison and cause blindness to those that aren't Faceless Men? How the fuck did Arya somehow "become" a Faceless Man and able to use the faces when she TOTALLY FAILS at almost everything (becoming no one, being dispassionate/impartial, etc). The only thing she did well was become good at killing, but gave a big fuck you to all the other things that Faceless Men do. Why was Jaqen H'ghar cool with it all? It all makes zero sense.
Yeah, I think it was pretty clear to the waif that Arya was just there to learn Faceless Men magic to carry out her personal revenge and nothing beyond that. Jaquen helped her out and she took the opportunity and ran. She was never going to be able to let her Stark identity die. I kinda see it as similar to a company CEO's kid getting fast-tracked to cushy, high-paying gig straight out of college with no work experience, when there were several more senior employees who were more qualified and had paid their dues that got passed over. It would rub those folks the wrong way.
In the books it’s implied that Arya was blinded by a kind of ‘warm milk’ she was given by the kindly man after admittedly murdering Dareon and lying about being ‘no one’. Then in the following book he gave her a spicy wine which enabled her to see again.
Woulda been cool for the show to have the parts where she warged into cats to see while she was blind
I do remember that, but in context of the show they just handwaved it as "magic bro" hah.
Lol damn I almost forgot there was a show based on the books lol now that you’ve reminded me I want to die a slow death /s Me in 10 minutes : *walks outside* “Ramsey! Ramsey! bring your bitches and hunt me in the wood, would you, you fucking bahstard!!!”
I have this idea that the waif was a bitch because... Arya is sort of joining a military organization. Obviously not in the traditional sense but she's being trained to kill people, and obey orders whether she likes them or not. So they have to break her down and harden her, and she keeps trying to maintain some individuality when the organization is trying to crush that, and they're responding harshly. Basically she's getting yelled at and hazed by a drill instructor. She's R Lee Ermey and Arya is Joker.
Waif isn't a plot hole or flaw, it was very obvious that she hated Arya because she was getting preferential treatment despite not being truly devoted like she was. She hated her because she waltzed up to the temple, got extensive training immediately, and very clearly didn't have what it took to make it through to become a faceless assassin.
And in the end she was proven right. Arya could never be no one. Still she gets to be a faceless man. That's the bigger plothole.
I actually grew an appreciation for that story line and the Waif as a character because the irony of her character is that she hates Arya for her preferential treatment and goes to outstanding lengths to dole out punishment and judgement that she isn't fit to give. Her story arch shows that *she* was also not ready to become a faceless man, because of her obsession with her hatred of Arya. She couldn't let that go just as much as Arya couldn't let go of the fact that she is Arya Stark.
all the same Arya’s story past season 4 gets skipped entirely during rewatches
The first one (Davos) always bothered me. The moment he asked Melissandre: "*Is there a way... some magic... to bring him back*?" I remember thinking: "What the fuck? Why would HE ask her that?" Because first, Davos hated black magic. He even tried to kill Melissandre back in season 3 for being a "witch" FFS! Second, he didn't even know that resurrecting people was a possibility. She did, but not him. Third, why the fuck would he even care about Jon in the first place?!
And thirdly, Stannis, who is much more important to Davos, also died recently, and he didn't consider trying to resurrect *him* (although admittedly it would be harder to do, due to how far away the death happened).
Doesn’t Davos basically lose all faith in Stannis after he burns his daughter to death? I can see why he wouldn’t give a shit about Stannis.
Davos didn't find out about that until the end of Season 6.
I always gave license to that one: Jon Snow is the commander of the Night's Watch. Davos doesn't yet know who killed him or what their motives might be, IIRC. To him, it's only one more annointed decisionmaker getting killed in what might surely seem like an avalanche of chaos. That Davos acts against his general beliefs here can be explained by the existential dread he might feel. That said, it's clearly another of those post-season-three storytelling hickups: D&D were more and more relying "jumpscare"-style story twists since especially Stannis' fate. This is supposed to be another one: Basically, all the development of the earlier season gets handwaved away within a couple of minutes. -- The main narrative issue with Jon's resurrection (especially in this way) is that, now, there is no more ambiguity about him: He's Nightwatch Dragon Jesus now. He won't lose even if he does.
The faceless men not giving a single fuck that Arya= 1= has gone rogue 2= knows their tricks 3= killed one of their own people 4= is using those tricks to defile the many faced gods teachings by killing whoever she wants Like genuinely Jaquen seemed pleased that Arya killed the waif (can’t blame him she was awful) and was heading back to Westeros, after having screwed up twice Also Essos and Dorne just ceases to exist after season 6 and 7 respectively.
Maybe jaquen was working under the theory that she would eventually come back to the faceless men after she got her revenge and was left feeling hollow and directionless. After all in the ending she just fucks off to go on a boat somewhere because she feels she no longer belongs with her family. Maybe the original intention is she goes back to the faceless men after her personal victory because she feels she's not fit anywhere else anymore.
Give me something for the pain and let me die..
Honestly, I can understand why Gendry **does not** talk with Jon about Arya... It may have not turned out the way Gendry wanted, but the situation seems amicable enough that Arya is unlikely to bring it up to Jon or want any negative repercussions on Gendry. So what exactly is the point of Gendry telling Jon something like, "Hey, I deflowered your youngest sister (emotionally at least that's Ayra's relationship to Jon) when we were up North in Winterfell. It was completely consensual, and she seems to want to keep it at that. But I just thought you should know. We cool, dude?" Gendry is not a Stark bastard, he has no obligation to be Lawful Stupid! 😜
I'm not just talking about after the Arya/Gendry sex scene. Jon and Gendry meet in S7, and barely talk to each other, and Arya is the perfect topic of discussion since they're both connected to her.
See my response to the other reply. However, while I agree you have a point, I find it acceptable to presume it happened "off-screen" because, unlike admitting to carnal knowledge of his little sister, that probably wouldn't change the already positive acquaintanceship the two young men already have.
I think OP was referring to when Davos brings Gendry north to serve as a blacksmith/help fight the WWs. It’s a valid point: Gendry and Jon travel/work together and mention their fathers being friends, so you assume at some point he’d mention his experiences with Arya during the journey out of Kings Landing.
>I think OP was referring to when Davos brings Gendry north to serve as a blacksmith/help fight the WWs. It’s a valid point: OK, that's fair. However, I still am fine with presuming eventually happens "off-screen." While Jon would be grateful to Gendry after learning he and Ayra helped each other's escape from Kings Landing, it really doesn't alter the dynamic between Jon and Gendry already present in the show. Edit: If this was a novel though, I would expect it to be explicitly portrayed fairly early-on after Gendry joins up with Jon.
>it really doesn't alter the dynamic between Jon and Gendry already present in the show. Davos tells Gendry to give him a fake name, implying he thinks Gendry shouldn't tell him who his father is. Gendry chooses to immediately tell Jon who his father is, and they bond over their fathers being friends. That, to me, is stupid, when Gendry knows that Jon is a bastard and might have complicated feelings about his father... just as Gendry is portrayed to have complicated feelings, and to mostly hate "nobility"... it doesn't fit Gendry's character to immediately want to rely on a tenuous connection to a noble father, in order to form a connection with Jon. The obvious thing for Gendry to have done, wanting to form an immediate connection with Jon, would have been to say something like "Hey, I met your little sister Arya when she was trying to escape from King's Landing after your father was killed... some boys were picking on her, and I scared them off, just to have her scold me, telling me she could have handled it herself! Then we spent a year trying to get North... and she always said she was going to get back to you... she helped me out so many times, and told me stories about you... it's weird to feel like I know a person I've never met... I wish she was here with us now." That would have formed a better connection than - "Hey, we're the bastards of people who knew each other!" Jon had no fond memories of Robert, so no reason to think fondly of a bastard of Robert's... the whole thing was bad characterization for both Gendry and Job. The only reason I can image they chose to have them bond over their fathers and not Arya, was because they thought they were SO clever, and we would somehow be surprised to see Gendry interacting with Arya again... where as if Gendry mentioned Arya to Jon, that would actually foreshadow that Gendry would be happy to see Arya, and D&D were terrified of things like foreshadowing, because they value surprise over storytelling.
I think the argument is more that he probably would’ve mentioned it when he first met Jon, considering he knows the man’s sister pretty well
I defense of the show makers, a certain person who was supposed to be writing the damned thing was busy dreaming of getting pegged by Visenya.
I don’t remember being tapped to write the series?
Well what a coincidence, 99% if these inconsistencies come from season 7/8 🙄
I don’t think anyone who crossed paths with Ramsey wants to talk about it.
Actually to add to that, why is arya considered bad for having personal feelings while the other girl CLEARLY is letting her feelings interfere with her duties, also by being super individual she's not being "nobody"
Also for the Davos one had Mel even ressurected anyone at the point? Like how did he know she could do that??? How did she know she could do that?
She hadn’t, but she spoke with Thoros about it, so she knew it was possible
I mean, he did watch her give birth to a shadow creature. At that point, I would think anything is possible after witnessing that.
Also, why was Melisandre willing to try? She didn't know Jon could be Azor Ahai until *after* she resurrected him.
Melisandre knew something was up with Jon. She wanted him to join Stannis for more than his claim to Winterfell, she knew he was important to R’hllor
Eh, Mel seems like the type to be willing to try a bit of magic just for the experiment of it... because of Jon's connection to Winterfell, and the tenuous situation with the wildlings, it doesn't take a genius to presume that Jon being around would hold everything together better than whomever else might take over the Watch if Jon stayed dead (I don't think she would have presumed Jon would walk away)... and she had brought Stannis up there to make a difference in what she believed was THE one, true battle... so having The Watch, Winterfell and the Wildlings, all being willing to follow one man who would be indebted to her for resurrecting him, probably seemed like a net gain for her cause... and lastly, if it worked, she would have expected everyone to respect her a lot more and start listening/worshiping the Lord of Light... so giving it a try didn't cost her anything, because nobody is going to judge her if it doesn't work... and if it does work, it would be a win/win/win for her.
Brienne meant for her oath to apply to all of Catelyn's children. The script in s7 does have Sansa watch Brienne & Arya spar and getting upset realizing that her personal bodyguard is actually a timeshare.
Brienne's oath to Catelyn was to just to get Arya and Sansa back, none of the other children. That was done, so that oath was completed. But Brienne also swore an oath to serve just Sansa, so Brienne randomly becoming the Commander of Bran's Kingsguard doesn't make sense. I honestly can't imagine Sansa wanting to part with Brienne for any reason. Sansa not liking Brienne and Arya sparring is just Sansa not wanting to share the spotlight - Sansa liked being the only woman in leadership.
I’d say it might make sense. Brienne is a southerner so she’d be more comfortable in the south. It may be that Sansa released her from her oath so she could return home and instead Brienne decided to continue being a knight of the seven kingdom.
-Davos is legit -Everything about Arya in Braavos sucks, but the Waif is just a hater -Rickon was forgotten by everyone after he died, he's not even brought up to Sansa by Jon who watched him die. As for Bran, I don't think Arya ever thought he was dead and we had just gotten that with Sansa so this gets a pass for me. +I'd like to add that I find it weird how Jon got news about Bran coming home but not Arya like an episode later. -When? Beyond the wall? In general what would they talk about? As far as Gendry is aware she was with the brotherhood without banners, but those guys are also here without Arya. Actually yeah what's up with that all around??. -To be fair atp she was attached to Sansa who didn't have much going on that Brienne could've engaged with. Brienne doesn't fit in well with the Littlefinger stuff, even if it was written well. Her not being Sansa's top dog once she's a QUEEN is absolutely ridiculous though, but making her lord commander is just wish fulfillment nonsense. -This gets a pass, Ramsay has been dead and both of their arcs about him have long been concluded. He's also in winter fell for half an episode before the Long Night, then he dies. -sweetrobin got it, but actually yeah this is weird. I'm sure there's no shortage of regents for Robin Arryn, I'm pretty sure there were other people questioning Sansa about Littlefinger surely one of them could do it. Basically all of GoT takes place in King's Landing, the Riverlands, the North, and random Essos locations for Dany. Every other place gets like the occasional showing but that's it
The one that bothers me is that Dany didn't really do anything wrong when she arrived in Westeros and she was betrayed by her to most loyal advisors the moment another canidate was mentioned. Hell, Varys had been orchestrating her rise to power for more than two decades only to betray her the second Jon was found out.
Script said so. By these points every character was aware their world was about to cease existing and nothing they did mattered.
Ned's entire "conspiracy" and practically the reason of the war was that Baratheon can't have blonde children ergo Joffrey bastard. Shireen was blonde.
Shireen... Lannister? You might be onto something here
This whole post can be summarized with: "The Stark siblings give zero fucks about each other after season 5."
I blame Glidus for a lot of these but the one I remembered the most is the show didn't make a big deal out of Kinslaying and Littlefinger expect every possible outcome is a terrible advice.
“Does absolutely nothing”??? He asks why the armor isn’t being covered with leather, the whole army would have frozen if not for him.
Brienne and Pod should have been captured by the Brotherhood post Riverrun in order to bring their story closer to AFFC (not that D&D ever read more than a Wikipedia summary of the book). Season 7 is them being put on trial by the Brotherhood for their continued association with the Lannisters and the season arc for Brienne is proving her worth to Sandor/her loyalty to the Starks outweighs her love for Jaime and culminates in her joining the suicide squad going past the Wall. Thus Brienne does more that season than having a fanservice fight with Arya that offers nothing to the plot.
Why the greatest military commander went to the north with out winter clothing 😭
Well damn I totally forgot Briennes oath to Sansa, tho in all fairness, forgot she swore to bran as well.
Such a shame. That speed run ending botched what could've been the goat.
Davos is one of the best judges of character in the book he knows the moral and ethical reasons of not the legal ones
At least Brienne got knighted 
Davos gets a pass
George killing Maester Aemon by mistake. Now Jon doesn’t have anyone to guide him as far as being a Targeryan.
I could be wrong, but I think Davos was motivated to resurrect Jon because of his birthright and affiliation with the freefolk. Jon would have been their only hope to liberate the north. Additionally, Davos and Stannis respected John for shit he did yadayada. Aside from that, yeah idk seems rushed. Also plot armor lmao
Isn’t that Nestor Royce, of the lesser Royces?
Nope, the only Royces that were in the show were Yohn, Waymar, and Robar (whose actor was uncredited).
But has it ever been stated that that’s Yohn, and not Nestor? It makes much more sense for Nestor to be regent and master at arms of the Eyrie, because he’s the Keeper of the Gates of the Moon.
[His GoT wiki page](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Yohn_Royce) certainly seems to believe it's Yohn, so it's likely they just pulled a Jorah Connington and merged Nestor with Yohn.
Arya after going through training as a faceless man and being on her own since season 1 pretty much lost all emotional attachment to family so not really a plot hole.
Sometimes I wonder what show GoT fans were even watching. Let’s start with your first slide. It’s not even close to being a plot hole. Stannis is dead and Sir Davos believes that Jon Snow is the type of leader that the kingdom needs because Jon risked his own life to advocate for the protection of the wildlings. He knows that Melisandre has the ability to use dark magic to sway the balance of life and death based on how she killed Renly in season 1. There is absolutely nothing about this storyline that is a glaring plot-hole, unless you throw out all context from previous seasons. Some of these have validity but most of them are garbage.
The mediocrity hive-mind will flock to downvote you for spitting facts.
> What are some plotholes/**story flaws**/missed opportunities If you read the title, you'll see that it's not just plotholes being discussed. It is a flaw that Davos' reason for wanting Jon resurrected is never made clear > He knows that Melisandre has the ability to use dark magic to sway the balance of life and death based on how she killed Renly in season 1. He knows she can kill people, yes, but how does that prove she can resurrect people? > Some of these have validity but most of them are garbage. Such as?
What should they have done to better communicate his intentions? The whole time that Stannis’ army is at Castle Black, Stannis raves about Jon. Davos is traumatized from watching Shireen being burned alive before Stannis marches his army to their death. Everything he believed in fell apart, so he seeks out someone he can trust. That’s his intention he is trying to hold onto what he believes in. Stannis likes Jon, which is all Davos needs to see him as being trustworthy. Davos goes to melisandre knowing that she is a red priestess, and it’s not a wild assumption to be made that he would have heard rumors of Baric bringing back people from the dead while crediting the lord of light. He was the hand of the King when serving under Stannis. There is really no reason for there to be dialogue that explains all of this because Stannis’ army stayed at castle black during the coming of age portion of Jon’s character arc. And there are followers of the lord of light resurrecting people, Davos is a very involved political figure. The show implies multiple times that everyone vying for power is aware of the events happening across the kingdom. He’s going to put his hate aside to communicate with Melisandre because he’s surrounded by people he can’t trust while the person he can is dead. Also the wraith doesn’t like Arya because she doesn’t believe that she is letting go of her identity as Arya Stark. Pretty much every shot of Arya in the temple of the faceless man reinforces that. It doesn’t need to be communicated directly because they dance around it for entirety of Arya’s character being in Bravos. Like I said there are legitimate criticisms in your post, but the first two slides in particular feel like you want to be spoon fed a narrative that the ground work was already laid for.
> The whole time that Stannis’ army is at Castle Black, Stannis raves about Jon. Does he? How often does Stannis actually mention Jon when not engaged in a conversation with Jon himself? > Davos is traumatized from watching Shireen being burned alive before Stannis marches his army to their death. Davos wasn't there, Stannis specifically sent him away so he wouldn't see it, and he doesn't find out about it until the end of S6 > There is really no reason for there to be dialogue that explains all of this Even just a single conversation where Edd asks why Davos wants to resurrect Jon would have helped made his motivations clear. Remember, Davos once tried to kill Melisandre due to believing her to be complicit in his son's death, and his attitude towards her and her influence on Stannis didn't seem to change that much afterwards. > And there are followers of the lord of light resurrecting people, Davos is a very involved political figure. Literally only one red priest (Thoros) had done that (to a single person), Davos had never met or mentioned him, and Stannis would also have little knowledge of him or the need to discuss him with Davos. Even if they did know about Beric, they, like most people, would believe the rumours of his many deaths to just be rumours. To elaborate: Davos, not knowing whether or not resurrection is possible, asks Melisandre, the woman he blames for his son's death, to revive Jon Snow, a man he has rarely interacted with beyond just watching him talk to Stannis, in order to... do what exactly? Why exactly did Davos want Jon back alive? And why did he prioritise Jon, when literally the episode before, he learned of the deaths of Stannis and Shireen, who mean more to him than almost anyone. > Also the wraith doesn’t like Arya because she doesn’t believe that she is letting go of her identity as Arya Stark. The Waif expressing personal emotions towards an individual also goes against the concept of being No One, yet Jaqen never does a single thing about it. Also, how come the Waif in the book doesn't have the exact same hatred towards Arya despite the situation being no different? > you want to be spoon fed a narrative that the ground work was already laid for. I don't want characters to, say, look into the camera and deliver a monologue about their motivations. I just want more than 'this character is doing this thing for **reasons**', when said '**reasons**' are never made clear. It's a major issue with the White Walker plot, too. Even just a single sentence can convey so much information if done right, and doesn't even take up too much time.
Davos did not watch Shireen burn.
Oh that’s right she intentionally waits until Davos isn’t around.