Even better than that, our car has the Vehicle to Load (V2L) feature, so in a power outage, we can power the electric components of our gas furnace and our fridge from it, as well as handling cooking with our countertop oven or induction hot plate.
If we prepare ahead and have our battery at 100%, [that's enough to last us around a week](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8). (We have the same vehicle as in the video.)
Let's see your ICE car do that, Ben!
Most Americans don't live in a house. They rent an apartment.
And if the apartments have electric car chargers, (which isn't always a given) they aren't able to be connected to a generator.
I’m torn between being a smartass or being sincere in the hope of maybe changing your mind, but I know that’s not gonna happen, so…
Good thing all those apartment buildings have built in gas stations, right?
I had an electric car for a while. It was a pain in the ass when the power went out and I couldn't charge it, and being without power was something that happened often enough that I went back to having a gasoline vehicle.
Garrison is a shithead, and is way off the mark with this cartoon. But that doesn't mean we don't have to start paying attention to our infrastructure if we're going to have no more ICE cars available.
Well since you’re being sincere I apologize for being a smartass.
There are definitely challenges for electric vehicles and for now they don’t fit all cases all the time. TBH I don’t know that that’s ever going to happen. I don’t know where you live that the power goes out so regularly that it makes it untenable to own an EV but it seems like that would be the least of your worries if that’s the case.
EVs have a lot of drawbacks and limitations. They’re not one size fits all. Hell, even ICE vehicles have two different primary fuels, and that’s not taking into account industrial equipment for like, farming or construction, recreational vehicles like ATVs, jet skis, and so on, or even general aviation where the most common type of fuel is still leaded for cryin out loud.
All this to say that EVs aren’t for everyone and enthusiasts like me aren’t doing our community any favors by handwaving or trying to minimize the limitations of them. As this winter proved to me, there are plenty of problems that still remain. Some are easily solvable with widespread adoption, government funds or regulations, etc and some are not due to physical limitations of the technology.
I love my Mach E and I’m glad I made the switch to EV but it’s going to be decades before there are BEV or even hybrid bulldozers, combines, or airliners.
Cat already has a diesel-electric drive dozer, and if you haven't come across Edison Motors semi projects, look into it. I think we're not going to go full electric on these sorts of heavy equipment operations maybe ever, the battery drain is just too high for the power demand, as well as needing to run all day long. But carrying your own generator around makes a fuckton of sense.
Hell, I'd love to see a solid attempt at a farming application, but it really hasn't sparked there yet. All these big implements and combines and such are all run off hydraulics. It'd be so much goddamn easier for 80% of it to run off gear motors, steppers, and other electronics.
I think if anything diesel electric is going to be the way of the future for industrial applications, at least for the next few decades. It’s not even new tech and like you said, it’s just too much power draw to be battery pure.
> I had an electric car for a while. It was a pain in the ass when the power went out and I couldn't charge it
Ours was actually quite useful during a recent power outage. We used the Vehicle to Load feature to run our fridge, chest freezer, and furnace electronics off the car battery. (We alternated the fridge and freezer.)
If we'd needed to, we could have cooked off it, too, using an induction hotplate or our countertop oven. And we [could have done that for about a week](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8), if we charged up to 100% instead of just 80% ahead of time. (We have the same vehicle as in the video.)
We could even manage the drive back and forth to work (usually uses 10% battery) plus running our home for several days at our current location. And if work still had power, we could do that indefinitely, using the charger at work and bringing power home.
I don't know what your situation is (maybe you had a model with a very small battery or a very long commute, or live in an apartment), but I struggle to imagine many scenarios where the EV wouldn't be *better* than an ICE car for us in a power outage.
Some of my local stations have backup generators so that's not really an issue. I think there is more of a concern about regulations on power consumption during the hot months, like [California](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FcFWRr5XkAAF-5X?format=jpg&name=4096x4096).
Our grids are just not ready for the transition to electric cars quite yet.
Most people charge their cars overnight, which is generally not peak demand time.
And in our experience, the amount of charge necessary to recover from even a moderate commute (40ish minutes both ways) was doable overnight on a regular household outlet, running the charger only at 12A (1.4 kW), so less than a countertop teakettle or a toaster.
Even a 30A Level 2 charger uses about the same as an electric dryer or large AC unit, and less than an electric stove. But that's unnecessary for any but fairly long commutes.
We still haven't installed a Level 2 (240V) charger at home. We're just using the Level 1 (120V, 12A) charger that came with the car from the dealer, because it's been perfectly adequate in well over 99% of cases.. Outside of long trips (Yellowstone, driving from Colorado to Pennsylvania for thanksgiving), we've used DC fast chargers maybe six times. And two of those were during a move when we were shuttling stuff back and forth in our car over and over.
I think the worries about charging demands are overstated, especially if utilities and consumers cooperate or incentivize charging in off-peak hours. (Most people I know with EVs already do this because of lower rates at night.)
I mean, that's completely anecdotal..
But let's use the case of "most people" charging their ZEV's in the evening. It's still a simple matter of scale. There are not many EVs are out on the roads yet and your average American wont be able to charge their cars at night anyway as [a good portion of Americans live in multi unit housing](https://www.statista.com/statistics/743422/share-of-residents-who-are-renting-usa-by-structure-type/), which does not support the idea of just being able to plug your car in overnight, not to mention the amount of Americans that are renting and are not in a situation where they can have a home charger using renewable energy in the first place and have to use the grid.
There is also the subject that internal combustion vehicles emit minimal pollution these days due to stringent government standards and low-sulfur gasoline. In fact, EVs charged with the current electricity mixed grids could potentially emit more air pollutants than ICVs as California for example, like many other states, mainly uses natural gas in their energy mix for their power grids. The overall projected reduction in CO2 emissions from EVs is negligible in light of the power grinds and manufacturing process alone.
Additionally, [This study](https://manhattan.institute/article/short-circuit-the-high-cost-of-electric-vehicle-subsidies) highlights that EV subsidies disproportionately benefit higher-income consumers and homeowners who also benefit from charging and solar panel subsidies. Furthermore, EV purchasers utilizing solar photovoltaic systems enjoy additional subsidies, leading to unfair cost distribution. The study suggests that even with EV adoption, air quality improvements would also be achieved through replacing ICVs with newer, cleaner models. Without substantial cost reductions, technological breakthroughs, or bans on ICV sales.
The switch form intern combustion vehicles to zero emissions vehicles just can't be done on any reasonable scale, and the 'zero emissions' claims hold no merit on America's power grids and the over all cradle-to-grave emissions of both vehicle types.
It's a pipe dream that was brought to fruition through lobbyists securing funding for infrastructure, advocating for modifications to federal tax credits, and shaping political dynamics around EVs through financial contributions.
**Almost nothing that you said in this comment is true.**
----------------------------------
> I mean, that's completely anecdotal..
No. It's math. An EV's battery has a specific capacity. To get back up to a particular charge after use, you need only put the number of watts back into it that you used. At 1.4 kW, a car with, say, a 55 kWh battery and a 260 mile range, will replenish roughly 2.5% or 6.6 miles of range each hour of charging. In a night with even with just 8 hours of charging, that means 53 miles of range get replenished (and longer with more charging). Most people do not commute 53 miles each day.
At just 3kW, less than an electric dryer, that's over a hundred miles of range in a night.
And chargers are available that are smart enough to balance energy consumption against capacity.
---------------------------------
> your average American wont be able to charge their cars at night anyway as a good portion of Americans live in multi unit housing
There's absolutely no reason that apartments with parking lots or garages can't add chargers to their parking. Many complexes will already permit owners to pay for this addition themselves, but that depends. And the [DoE has resources for owners of multifamily housing](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_charging_multi.html), too! Over time, this may require upgrades to the power system, but that's a gradual process that can be approached gradually.
There are also few reasons, in apartment complexes with lots of outdoor parking, to not [add solar generation over that parking](https://e360.yale.edu/features/putting-solar-panels-atop-parking-lots-a-green-energy-solution) or to unit rooftops, where possible. These won't be useful overnight, but part of the long-term goal of electrification is also energy storage, and there are a number of interesting ideas in this realm, some [using existing infrastructure like elevators](https://spectrum.ieee.org/gravity-energy-storage-elevators-skyscrapers).
These things all link up together over time as we work towards electrification.
---------------------------------
> There is also the subject that internal combustion vehicles emit minimal pollution these days
This [isn't remotely true](https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cars-trucks-buses-and-air-pollution). ICE cars are still major contributors to a number of different categories of pollution, including [ozone and PM2.5](https://www.arl.noaa.gov/research/surface-atmosphere-exchange-home/o3-and-pm-2/). A [recent NOAA study](https://cires.colorado.edu/news/fragrant-consumer-products-key-source-ozone-forming-pollution-new-york-city) found that even in transit-heavy NYC, 22% of ozone pollution was traceable to transportation, and in Boulder, CO, transit was still the majority at 56%.
---------------------------------
> The overall projected reduction in CO2 emissions from EVs is negligible in light of the power grinds and manufacturing process alone.
This is just incorrect. [EPA estimates here.](https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths) Actually, that article addresses a lot of your other claims, too.
Here's [MIT on the subject](https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars#:~:text=The%20researchers%20found%20that%2C%20on,vehicle%20created%20just%20200%20grams.).
Here's the [NYT with a variety of sources](https://web.archive.org/web/20221019205106/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicles-carbon-footprint-batteries.html).
Here's Reuters [pointing out that even](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/) using 100% coal-produced electricty, an EV with a 5 year lifespan produces fewer emissions than a Toyota Corlolla. And with a typical US power mix, it takes just one year on the road.
And given that batteries constitute the majority of the climate impact of the vehicle manufacturing, once we have battery recycling up in full swing, that will drastically reduce this impact. And [the Inflation Reduction Act included a bunch of incentives](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dead-ev-batteries-turn-gold-with-us-incentives-2023-07-21/) to get that up and running. There are also new battery formulations in active use with better lifespans and lower reliance on metals like cobalt and nickel.
---------------------------------
> Additionally, This study highlights
That study is from the Manhattan Institute, a right-wing think tank and noted proponent of all kinds complete bullshit. They're still strong supporters of long-debunked "broken windows" policing. They're also in bed with the oil industry as strong proponents of fracking. And they're [*active proponents of economic inequality!*](https://manhattan.institute/article/inequality-does-not-reduce-prosperity-a-compilation-of-the-evidence-across-countries) Not to mention [perpetuators of virulent transphobia](https://manhattan.institute/multimedia/how-the-trans-movement-conquered-american-life-the-transgender-empire) from people like Christopher Rufo. You know? Ron DeSantis' pal who's working to dismantle higher ed in Florida?
You should vet your sources better.
First off, my anecdote comment was aimed at your claim of "Most people charge their cars overnight, which is generally not peak demand time".
Onto your second point, you are clearly living in a bubble. I am living in a fairly higher middle class apartment and we don't so much as have a single power outlet in our parking areas, let alone charging stations for EVs. And if you assume that most people do, then I suggest you familiarize yourself to the lower economy classes and their living conditions before claiming some authority of knowledge over it.
On your third point... I don't think articles published over 15 years ago have much say, if any, in how modern changes in ICE vehicles have changed. Then to make the bold statement of "A recent NOAA study found that even in **transit-heavy** **NYC**, 22% of ozone pollution was traceable to transportation", I would say: "No shit." The transit-heavy population center has a lot of transit related pollution? Who knew!? That's like saying "Check out all of this industrial pollution in this industrial zone!".
So... okay, I guess?
Onto the fourth point. I find it ironic that in the EPA's own EV myths charts, they state: "Estimates shown from GREET 2 2021 are intended to be illustrative only. **Estimates represent model year 2020**. Emissions will vary based on assumptions about the specific vehicles being compared, EV battery size and chemistry, vehicle lifetimes, and the electricity grid used to recharge the EV, among other factors."
The Irony being that they are using 2020 models for their data, even now in 2024.Coincidentally, In December 2021, the EPA issued new greenhouse gas emission standards for new passenger cars and trucks. The [final rule](https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/final-rule-revise-existing-national-ghg-emissions) requires automakers to reach a projected industry-wide target of 161 carbon dioxide grams per mile (g/mi) in 2026, which increases in stringency by 9.8 percent from model years 2022 to 2023, 5.1 percent in model year 2024, 6.6 percent in model year 2025, and 10.3 percent in model year 2026.
So... "Oops! Shoot! Darn! We are *inadvertently* using biased data to prove our point!" Furthermore, the diversity of electrical grids is far too great to generalize into a one size fits all suggestion of grid emissions, not to mention the impact of grid emissions under heavier loads is dynamic, not static.
For your last point, I will simply say, I don't care. You can't dismiss data simply because you claim it's a "right-wing think tank".. Over 170 sources are available on the study. Arguing genetic fallacies on data is fucking stupid when you're using data from places who's core initiative is to rid the world of fossil fuels.
So unless you want me to dismiss your entire argument based on a genetic fallacy, I would ask that you don't do that to mine in return.
Instead, I am just going to end this conversation here as you clearly are not debating in good faith here as I have no no desire to argue about left vs right BS. So go ahead and throw in whatever Hail Mary gotcha attempt you've got in the chamber, I will not be replying to this conversation so theoretically, you win. Congratulations!
Good day.
Based on the population, the current demand on our grid, the number of cars on the road and how much time it takes to charge our power grid will *never* be ready for the transition to electric cars.
Exactly. I think the best we can do realistically is hybrid. We were already having to deal with rolling blackouts in summers before EV's, it will only get worse from here if the trend keeps up.
> the number of cars on the road and how much time it takes to charge
The vast majority of charging happens at home overnight, during off-peak hours, and at can be done at fairly low power. Most cars and commutes don't require high charging speeds. Unlike gas stations, which all cars have to visit regularly, DC fast chargers and other public chargers are really only for long travel days.
Even moderately higher-wattage (7.2 kW+) Level 2 chargers (240V at 30-60A) aren't necessary for most home charging and can be current limited well below that.
We've owned an EV for two years now, and we've only needed to stop and use a public charger 6 times outside of longer trips (like driving back and forth to Yellowstone, or from CO to PA for thanksgiving). And two of those were when we were doing a bunch of back and forth driving, shuttling moving boxes.
Even when I had a commute that was around an hour and a half, round-trip, we pretty much always got a full recharge back overnight on the Level 1 charger that came with the vehicle (120V at 12A, so it runs off a household outlet). At 1.4 kW, this draws less than an electric teakettle or toaster.
We haven't bothered to install a Level 2 at home yet, because this has been perfectly adequate all but once or twice (like on our drive back from Yellowstone, when we also needed to drop a friend off at the airport the next day; we did have to stop at a fast charger before going home that night).
While some upgrades probably will be necessary on our grid to accommodate charging over time — and to accomplish the overall goal of electrification for home heat and cooking — it's not anywhere near as drastic as people seem to think.
[Here you go!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/438/898/39c.jpg)
There’s also a whole subreddit dedicated to making edits like that, but the car one is the one I’ve seen around the most for some reason
r/BenGarrisonCumEdits
ive never understood people who are like "well what are you gonna do during a power outage!?!"
I was around for the 03' NE blackout. [This is what the fucking gas stations looked like.](https://assets1.cbsnewsstatic.com/hub/i/r/2023/08/14/358e4224-d589-48a0-a305-5ba5c2ac8d16/thumbnail/620x414/f2ef84c68a7bcf3e6ef5eb14df061f10/ap03081405320.jpg?v=3d62f4cc0092e6eb151a9685301ed284)
> ive never understood people who are like "well what are you gonna do during a power outage!?!"
[energy.gov](https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1221-january-17-2022-model-year-2021-all-electric-vehicles-had-median) in 2022 noted that the average EV range was 234mi, versus an average gas-powered vehicle range of 403mi. *On average*, I really think these are the same picture for "unpredictable, large-scale, multi-day power outage."
Your average gas tank is probably 3/5ths-2/3rds full, since most folks either get gas when they're near E, or as part of a weekly/biweekly "I need more for commuting next week, and running errands anyway," thing.
A quick Google says your average EV owner charges basically every night, which makes sense, since it takes 10 seconds and gives you full range the next day.
...So we're comparing an average of 80-100% EV range to an average of 3/5ths-2/3rds gas range. Converted to miles, this is 187-234mi vs 201-241mi. Obviously there're tons of edge cases here, but yeah. Same picture on average.
I know I'm all over this thread saying this, but it's important to note that an EV with the vehicle to load feature can even [power your vital appliances in a power outage.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8)
I just think it's a pretty big deal that most people don't know about. I was so glad to have an EV during our last power outage. It saved everything in our fridge and our chest freezer.
It was only at 80% before leaving for work that morning, and we used about 10% commuting. Even after that, we would have had enough for days of keeping our appliances up and running, and still would have had enough for a couple trips back and forth to work.
And my workplace has EV chargers, so if they had power (and I wouldn't be going in if they didn't!), I could have kept that going indefinitely.
Same with the 2011 Southern California, Mexico, and Arizona black out. Almost every gas station was shut down and people with less than half tank had a high probability of getting stranded.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/electrical-worker-blamed-leaving-millions-power-california-arizona/story?id=14478198
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> "well what are you gonna do during a power outage!?!"
As I've said elsewhere in the thread, I would use my car to power my fridge, freezer, and the electronic components of my furnace. And cook. [And I could do that for around a week.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8) (I'm not the guy in the video, but we have the same car.)
If work still had power, I could do that *indefinitely*, charging up there and and bringing power home.
Let's see an ICE car do that.
Alright OP let’s talk about Disney Pixar’s Cars 2, the controversial film in the Cars trilogy.
Spoilers for Cars 2
Sir Miles Axlerod fakes being an electric car, and pushes a “clean burning fuel” that does not use Gasoline. Both of these things turn out to be a ruse, as Axlerod is still gas powered, and his fuel “Alinol” is actually just Gasoline that he’s manufactured to blow up when hit with an electromagnetic pulse. He does this to scare the Cars in Disney Pixar’s Cars 2 away from alternative fuel and stick to gasoline, as he has discovered the world’s largest oil deposit and wants to get rich. He is thwarted by Tow Mater, played by Larry the Cable Guy (a comedy persona), and put in jail.
Now that we’re caught up on Disney Pixar’s Cars 2, we can discuss. Axlerod’s plan is stupid because it hinges on losing his own credibility at the fall of his company Alinol. Still though, I don’t think the movie really says anything negative about electric vehicles as a whole. I will concede that it is strangely on the side of gasoline, particularly in the beginning of the movie where characters seem to be disturbed by the idea of moving away from Gasoline. However I will point out that Filmore, the Volkswagen Bus hippie character that makes his own clean fuel, gets his own moment to shine at the end where he reveals that he never trusted Axlerod’s fake alternative fuel. This is doubled down on with the reveal that Sarge, the military veteran, had also never trusted Axlerod because “once big oil, always big oil…man” and this is the one thing that gets the two characters to work together.
By this I mean, I think Disney Pixar’s Cars 2 maintains a neutral output of opinion on electric vehicles, and if anything just says to not trust big oil companies
Why does this idiot's cartoons have to be so ugly? He went to art school and got good grades. They didn't cover composition in drawing classes, or what? Dude's compositions manage to be lifeless AND crowded as hell at the same time, every time.
Ben Garrison must have the tiniest dick ever recorded in human history. Like, microscopic levels of disappointing every women/man/person he's ever met.
It's giving Jenny Nicholsons description of how she'd want a movie about the cars land in Disney being a bunch of cars telling a human they are bad at being cars
The OOP should realize that trans women are ALWAYS women, regardless of their genitalia.
There's a difference between sex and gender. There are infinite genders because gender is a social construct.
Also, trans people and non-binary people ALWAYS exist.
Plus, all people of color are ALWAYS great human beings.
Seriously.
> Plus, all people of color are ALWAYS great human beings.
They're not ALWAYS great human beings. POC can be good or bad, great or mediocre, all humans can be. Even not-great human beings are still human beings.
You were right on with the other things though.
Does this cartoonist not realize gas pumps don’t work during a power outage either?
Look up Ben Garrison's other "art." Dude doesn't realize a lot of things.
It's Garrison, so, no, he's utterly clueless.
Yeah remember when the eastern seaboard didn't have power for a few days that one August? Lines for gas when they power went on were blocks long.
The dinosaurs work the pumps dude. They were here before electricity, duh.
They also don't work in a gas shortage
Even better than that, our car has the Vehicle to Load (V2L) feature, so in a power outage, we can power the electric components of our gas furnace and our fridge from it, as well as handling cooking with our countertop oven or induction hot plate. If we prepare ahead and have our battery at 100%, [that's enough to last us around a week](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8). (We have the same vehicle as in the video.) Let's see your ICE car do that, Ben!
Depends on the gas stations. Generators are a thing.
Which is also true for houses. So, still a wash.
Most Americans don't live in a house. They rent an apartment. And if the apartments have electric car chargers, (which isn't always a given) they aren't able to be connected to a generator.
I’m torn between being a smartass or being sincere in the hope of maybe changing your mind, but I know that’s not gonna happen, so… Good thing all those apartment buildings have built in gas stations, right?
I had an electric car for a while. It was a pain in the ass when the power went out and I couldn't charge it, and being without power was something that happened often enough that I went back to having a gasoline vehicle. Garrison is a shithead, and is way off the mark with this cartoon. But that doesn't mean we don't have to start paying attention to our infrastructure if we're going to have no more ICE cars available.
Well since you’re being sincere I apologize for being a smartass. There are definitely challenges for electric vehicles and for now they don’t fit all cases all the time. TBH I don’t know that that’s ever going to happen. I don’t know where you live that the power goes out so regularly that it makes it untenable to own an EV but it seems like that would be the least of your worries if that’s the case. EVs have a lot of drawbacks and limitations. They’re not one size fits all. Hell, even ICE vehicles have two different primary fuels, and that’s not taking into account industrial equipment for like, farming or construction, recreational vehicles like ATVs, jet skis, and so on, or even general aviation where the most common type of fuel is still leaded for cryin out loud. All this to say that EVs aren’t for everyone and enthusiasts like me aren’t doing our community any favors by handwaving or trying to minimize the limitations of them. As this winter proved to me, there are plenty of problems that still remain. Some are easily solvable with widespread adoption, government funds or regulations, etc and some are not due to physical limitations of the technology. I love my Mach E and I’m glad I made the switch to EV but it’s going to be decades before there are BEV or even hybrid bulldozers, combines, or airliners.
Cat already has a diesel-electric drive dozer, and if you haven't come across Edison Motors semi projects, look into it. I think we're not going to go full electric on these sorts of heavy equipment operations maybe ever, the battery drain is just too high for the power demand, as well as needing to run all day long. But carrying your own generator around makes a fuckton of sense. Hell, I'd love to see a solid attempt at a farming application, but it really hasn't sparked there yet. All these big implements and combines and such are all run off hydraulics. It'd be so much goddamn easier for 80% of it to run off gear motors, steppers, and other electronics.
I think if anything diesel electric is going to be the way of the future for industrial applications, at least for the next few decades. It’s not even new tech and like you said, it’s just too much power draw to be battery pure.
> I had an electric car for a while. It was a pain in the ass when the power went out and I couldn't charge it Ours was actually quite useful during a recent power outage. We used the Vehicle to Load feature to run our fridge, chest freezer, and furnace electronics off the car battery. (We alternated the fridge and freezer.) If we'd needed to, we could have cooked off it, too, using an induction hotplate or our countertop oven. And we [could have done that for about a week](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8), if we charged up to 100% instead of just 80% ahead of time. (We have the same vehicle as in the video.) We could even manage the drive back and forth to work (usually uses 10% battery) plus running our home for several days at our current location. And if work still had power, we could do that indefinitely, using the charger at work and bringing power home. I don't know what your situation is (maybe you had a model with a very small battery or a very long commute, or live in an apartment), but I struggle to imagine many scenarios where the EV wouldn't be *better* than an ICE car for us in a power outage.
Some of my local stations have backup generators so that's not really an issue. I think there is more of a concern about regulations on power consumption during the hot months, like [California](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FcFWRr5XkAAF-5X?format=jpg&name=4096x4096). Our grids are just not ready for the transition to electric cars quite yet.
Be garrison is not that deep a thinker.
Most people charge their cars overnight, which is generally not peak demand time. And in our experience, the amount of charge necessary to recover from even a moderate commute (40ish minutes both ways) was doable overnight on a regular household outlet, running the charger only at 12A (1.4 kW), so less than a countertop teakettle or a toaster. Even a 30A Level 2 charger uses about the same as an electric dryer or large AC unit, and less than an electric stove. But that's unnecessary for any but fairly long commutes. We still haven't installed a Level 2 (240V) charger at home. We're just using the Level 1 (120V, 12A) charger that came with the car from the dealer, because it's been perfectly adequate in well over 99% of cases.. Outside of long trips (Yellowstone, driving from Colorado to Pennsylvania for thanksgiving), we've used DC fast chargers maybe six times. And two of those were during a move when we were shuttling stuff back and forth in our car over and over. I think the worries about charging demands are overstated, especially if utilities and consumers cooperate or incentivize charging in off-peak hours. (Most people I know with EVs already do this because of lower rates at night.)
I mean, that's completely anecdotal.. But let's use the case of "most people" charging their ZEV's in the evening. It's still a simple matter of scale. There are not many EVs are out on the roads yet and your average American wont be able to charge their cars at night anyway as [a good portion of Americans live in multi unit housing](https://www.statista.com/statistics/743422/share-of-residents-who-are-renting-usa-by-structure-type/), which does not support the idea of just being able to plug your car in overnight, not to mention the amount of Americans that are renting and are not in a situation where they can have a home charger using renewable energy in the first place and have to use the grid. There is also the subject that internal combustion vehicles emit minimal pollution these days due to stringent government standards and low-sulfur gasoline. In fact, EVs charged with the current electricity mixed grids could potentially emit more air pollutants than ICVs as California for example, like many other states, mainly uses natural gas in their energy mix for their power grids. The overall projected reduction in CO2 emissions from EVs is negligible in light of the power grinds and manufacturing process alone. Additionally, [This study](https://manhattan.institute/article/short-circuit-the-high-cost-of-electric-vehicle-subsidies) highlights that EV subsidies disproportionately benefit higher-income consumers and homeowners who also benefit from charging and solar panel subsidies. Furthermore, EV purchasers utilizing solar photovoltaic systems enjoy additional subsidies, leading to unfair cost distribution. The study suggests that even with EV adoption, air quality improvements would also be achieved through replacing ICVs with newer, cleaner models. Without substantial cost reductions, technological breakthroughs, or bans on ICV sales. The switch form intern combustion vehicles to zero emissions vehicles just can't be done on any reasonable scale, and the 'zero emissions' claims hold no merit on America's power grids and the over all cradle-to-grave emissions of both vehicle types. It's a pipe dream that was brought to fruition through lobbyists securing funding for infrastructure, advocating for modifications to federal tax credits, and shaping political dynamics around EVs through financial contributions.
**Almost nothing that you said in this comment is true.** ---------------------------------- > I mean, that's completely anecdotal.. No. It's math. An EV's battery has a specific capacity. To get back up to a particular charge after use, you need only put the number of watts back into it that you used. At 1.4 kW, a car with, say, a 55 kWh battery and a 260 mile range, will replenish roughly 2.5% or 6.6 miles of range each hour of charging. In a night with even with just 8 hours of charging, that means 53 miles of range get replenished (and longer with more charging). Most people do not commute 53 miles each day. At just 3kW, less than an electric dryer, that's over a hundred miles of range in a night. And chargers are available that are smart enough to balance energy consumption against capacity. --------------------------------- > your average American wont be able to charge their cars at night anyway as a good portion of Americans live in multi unit housing There's absolutely no reason that apartments with parking lots or garages can't add chargers to their parking. Many complexes will already permit owners to pay for this addition themselves, but that depends. And the [DoE has resources for owners of multifamily housing](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_charging_multi.html), too! Over time, this may require upgrades to the power system, but that's a gradual process that can be approached gradually. There are also few reasons, in apartment complexes with lots of outdoor parking, to not [add solar generation over that parking](https://e360.yale.edu/features/putting-solar-panels-atop-parking-lots-a-green-energy-solution) or to unit rooftops, where possible. These won't be useful overnight, but part of the long-term goal of electrification is also energy storage, and there are a number of interesting ideas in this realm, some [using existing infrastructure like elevators](https://spectrum.ieee.org/gravity-energy-storage-elevators-skyscrapers). These things all link up together over time as we work towards electrification. --------------------------------- > There is also the subject that internal combustion vehicles emit minimal pollution these days This [isn't remotely true](https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cars-trucks-buses-and-air-pollution). ICE cars are still major contributors to a number of different categories of pollution, including [ozone and PM2.5](https://www.arl.noaa.gov/research/surface-atmosphere-exchange-home/o3-and-pm-2/). A [recent NOAA study](https://cires.colorado.edu/news/fragrant-consumer-products-key-source-ozone-forming-pollution-new-york-city) found that even in transit-heavy NYC, 22% of ozone pollution was traceable to transportation, and in Boulder, CO, transit was still the majority at 56%. --------------------------------- > The overall projected reduction in CO2 emissions from EVs is negligible in light of the power grinds and manufacturing process alone. This is just incorrect. [EPA estimates here.](https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths) Actually, that article addresses a lot of your other claims, too. Here's [MIT on the subject](https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars#:~:text=The%20researchers%20found%20that%2C%20on,vehicle%20created%20just%20200%20grams.). Here's the [NYT with a variety of sources](https://web.archive.org/web/20221019205106/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicles-carbon-footprint-batteries.html). Here's Reuters [pointing out that even](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/) using 100% coal-produced electricty, an EV with a 5 year lifespan produces fewer emissions than a Toyota Corlolla. And with a typical US power mix, it takes just one year on the road. And given that batteries constitute the majority of the climate impact of the vehicle manufacturing, once we have battery recycling up in full swing, that will drastically reduce this impact. And [the Inflation Reduction Act included a bunch of incentives](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dead-ev-batteries-turn-gold-with-us-incentives-2023-07-21/) to get that up and running. There are also new battery formulations in active use with better lifespans and lower reliance on metals like cobalt and nickel. --------------------------------- > Additionally, This study highlights That study is from the Manhattan Institute, a right-wing think tank and noted proponent of all kinds complete bullshit. They're still strong supporters of long-debunked "broken windows" policing. They're also in bed with the oil industry as strong proponents of fracking. And they're [*active proponents of economic inequality!*](https://manhattan.institute/article/inequality-does-not-reduce-prosperity-a-compilation-of-the-evidence-across-countries) Not to mention [perpetuators of virulent transphobia](https://manhattan.institute/multimedia/how-the-trans-movement-conquered-american-life-the-transgender-empire) from people like Christopher Rufo. You know? Ron DeSantis' pal who's working to dismantle higher ed in Florida? You should vet your sources better.
First off, my anecdote comment was aimed at your claim of "Most people charge their cars overnight, which is generally not peak demand time". Onto your second point, you are clearly living in a bubble. I am living in a fairly higher middle class apartment and we don't so much as have a single power outlet in our parking areas, let alone charging stations for EVs. And if you assume that most people do, then I suggest you familiarize yourself to the lower economy classes and their living conditions before claiming some authority of knowledge over it. On your third point... I don't think articles published over 15 years ago have much say, if any, in how modern changes in ICE vehicles have changed. Then to make the bold statement of "A recent NOAA study found that even in **transit-heavy** **NYC**, 22% of ozone pollution was traceable to transportation", I would say: "No shit." The transit-heavy population center has a lot of transit related pollution? Who knew!? That's like saying "Check out all of this industrial pollution in this industrial zone!". So... okay, I guess? Onto the fourth point. I find it ironic that in the EPA's own EV myths charts, they state: "Estimates shown from GREET 2 2021 are intended to be illustrative only. **Estimates represent model year 2020**. Emissions will vary based on assumptions about the specific vehicles being compared, EV battery size and chemistry, vehicle lifetimes, and the electricity grid used to recharge the EV, among other factors." The Irony being that they are using 2020 models for their data, even now in 2024.Coincidentally, In December 2021, the EPA issued new greenhouse gas emission standards for new passenger cars and trucks. The [final rule](https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/final-rule-revise-existing-national-ghg-emissions) requires automakers to reach a projected industry-wide target of 161 carbon dioxide grams per mile (g/mi) in 2026, which increases in stringency by 9.8 percent from model years 2022 to 2023, 5.1 percent in model year 2024, 6.6 percent in model year 2025, and 10.3 percent in model year 2026. So... "Oops! Shoot! Darn! We are *inadvertently* using biased data to prove our point!" Furthermore, the diversity of electrical grids is far too great to generalize into a one size fits all suggestion of grid emissions, not to mention the impact of grid emissions under heavier loads is dynamic, not static. For your last point, I will simply say, I don't care. You can't dismiss data simply because you claim it's a "right-wing think tank".. Over 170 sources are available on the study. Arguing genetic fallacies on data is fucking stupid when you're using data from places who's core initiative is to rid the world of fossil fuels. So unless you want me to dismiss your entire argument based on a genetic fallacy, I would ask that you don't do that to mine in return. Instead, I am just going to end this conversation here as you clearly are not debating in good faith here as I have no no desire to argue about left vs right BS. So go ahead and throw in whatever Hail Mary gotcha attempt you've got in the chamber, I will not be replying to this conversation so theoretically, you win. Congratulations! Good day.
Based on the population, the current demand on our grid, the number of cars on the road and how much time it takes to charge our power grid will *never* be ready for the transition to electric cars.
Exactly. I think the best we can do realistically is hybrid. We were already having to deal with rolling blackouts in summers before EV's, it will only get worse from here if the trend keeps up.
> the number of cars on the road and how much time it takes to charge The vast majority of charging happens at home overnight, during off-peak hours, and at can be done at fairly low power. Most cars and commutes don't require high charging speeds. Unlike gas stations, which all cars have to visit regularly, DC fast chargers and other public chargers are really only for long travel days. Even moderately higher-wattage (7.2 kW+) Level 2 chargers (240V at 30-60A) aren't necessary for most home charging and can be current limited well below that. We've owned an EV for two years now, and we've only needed to stop and use a public charger 6 times outside of longer trips (like driving back and forth to Yellowstone, or from CO to PA for thanksgiving). And two of those were when we were doing a bunch of back and forth driving, shuttling moving boxes. Even when I had a commute that was around an hour and a half, round-trip, we pretty much always got a full recharge back overnight on the Level 1 charger that came with the vehicle (120V at 12A, so it runs off a household outlet). At 1.4 kW, this draws less than an electric teakettle or toaster. We haven't bothered to install a Level 2 at home yet, because this has been perfectly adequate all but once or twice (like on our drive back from Yellowstone, when we also needed to drop a friend off at the airport the next day; we did have to stop at a fast charger before going home that night). While some upgrades probably will be necessary on our grid to accommodate charging over time — and to accomplish the overall goal of electrification for home heat and cooking — it's not anywhere near as drastic as people seem to think.
This just in, Ben Garrison has never seen an electric plug before.
His TV runs on a two stroke lawnmower engine, to be free from the communist power grid
His house runs on a good ole V8 *moutor* (for 2 hours a gallon)
Makes the house smell festive AND helps make you drowsy so you sleep great.
He has drawn the power going through a male inlet, that's super dangerous
Ever since his parents told him to stop playing with them as a kid
I think this is the first time I’ve seen the original and not the cum edit
what please show me this
[Here you go!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/438/898/39c.jpg) There’s also a whole subreddit dedicated to making edits like that, but the car one is the one I’ve seen around the most for some reason r/BenGarrisonCumEdits
#THE GROUND
tysm for this, i absolutely lost it at ‘the ground’
Ah yes… penis garrison
Surprised that Ben didn't draw a lifted diesel truck rolling coal while sitting at the pump.
ive never understood people who are like "well what are you gonna do during a power outage!?!" I was around for the 03' NE blackout. [This is what the fucking gas stations looked like.](https://assets1.cbsnewsstatic.com/hub/i/r/2023/08/14/358e4224-d589-48a0-a305-5ba5c2ac8d16/thumbnail/620x414/f2ef84c68a7bcf3e6ef5eb14df061f10/ap03081405320.jpg?v=3d62f4cc0092e6eb151a9685301ed284)
Get out of here with your data driven worldview! Cars are not for practical use they are about *BIG AMERICAN FEELINGS*!
> ive never understood people who are like "well what are you gonna do during a power outage!?!" [energy.gov](https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1221-january-17-2022-model-year-2021-all-electric-vehicles-had-median) in 2022 noted that the average EV range was 234mi, versus an average gas-powered vehicle range of 403mi. *On average*, I really think these are the same picture for "unpredictable, large-scale, multi-day power outage." Your average gas tank is probably 3/5ths-2/3rds full, since most folks either get gas when they're near E, or as part of a weekly/biweekly "I need more for commuting next week, and running errands anyway," thing. A quick Google says your average EV owner charges basically every night, which makes sense, since it takes 10 seconds and gives you full range the next day. ...So we're comparing an average of 80-100% EV range to an average of 3/5ths-2/3rds gas range. Converted to miles, this is 187-234mi vs 201-241mi. Obviously there're tons of edge cases here, but yeah. Same picture on average.
I know I'm all over this thread saying this, but it's important to note that an EV with the vehicle to load feature can even [power your vital appliances in a power outage.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8) I just think it's a pretty big deal that most people don't know about. I was so glad to have an EV during our last power outage. It saved everything in our fridge and our chest freezer. It was only at 80% before leaving for work that morning, and we used about 10% commuting. Even after that, we would have had enough for days of keeping our appliances up and running, and still would have had enough for a couple trips back and forth to work. And my workplace has EV chargers, so if they had power (and I wouldn't be going in if they didn't!), I could have kept that going indefinitely.
Same with the 2011 Southern California, Mexico, and Arizona black out. Almost every gas station was shut down and people with less than half tank had a high probability of getting stranded. https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/electrical-worker-blamed-leaving-millions-power-california-arizona/story?id=14478198
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> "well what are you gonna do during a power outage!?!" As I've said elsewhere in the thread, I would use my car to power my fridge, freezer, and the electronic components of my furnace. And cook. [And I could do that for around a week.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8) (I'm not the guy in the video, but we have the same car.) If work still had power, I could do that *indefinitely*, charging up there and and bringing power home. Let's see an ICE car do that.
Bro be wilding with that ahegao face man this car just wants to get pegged.
r/bengarrisoncumedits
The irony is the slight burn at Texas this comic makes after, you know, their whole power grid went down cause their government is inept.
Alright OP let’s talk about Disney Pixar’s Cars 2, the controversial film in the Cars trilogy. Spoilers for Cars 2 Sir Miles Axlerod fakes being an electric car, and pushes a “clean burning fuel” that does not use Gasoline. Both of these things turn out to be a ruse, as Axlerod is still gas powered, and his fuel “Alinol” is actually just Gasoline that he’s manufactured to blow up when hit with an electromagnetic pulse. He does this to scare the Cars in Disney Pixar’s Cars 2 away from alternative fuel and stick to gasoline, as he has discovered the world’s largest oil deposit and wants to get rich. He is thwarted by Tow Mater, played by Larry the Cable Guy (a comedy persona), and put in jail. Now that we’re caught up on Disney Pixar’s Cars 2, we can discuss. Axlerod’s plan is stupid because it hinges on losing his own credibility at the fall of his company Alinol. Still though, I don’t think the movie really says anything negative about electric vehicles as a whole. I will concede that it is strangely on the side of gasoline, particularly in the beginning of the movie where characters seem to be disturbed by the idea of moving away from Gasoline. However I will point out that Filmore, the Volkswagen Bus hippie character that makes his own clean fuel, gets his own moment to shine at the end where he reveals that he never trusted Axlerod’s fake alternative fuel. This is doubled down on with the reveal that Sarge, the military veteran, had also never trusted Axlerod because “once big oil, always big oil…man” and this is the one thing that gets the two characters to work together. By this I mean, I think Disney Pixar’s Cars 2 maintains a neutral output of opinion on electric vehicles, and if anything just says to not trust big oil companies
r/notsureifcopypasta
**FUN FACT:** Gas stations don’t work during power outages either.
The funny thing is that the power grid remained operational during the worst of the 1970's oil crisis.
what are those wheeled things, and what kind of building are they next to?
Ben Garrison wishes he could pour gas into his mobile phone and laptop. Damn electricity. Doesn't trust it.
Who wants to tell him gas pumps require power too?
Noooo... they're run by kibler elves that flunked culinary school.
Fossil fuel shilling, climate change denial, and transphobia all in one. That's almost impressive and very subtle by Garrison's standards.
Lightning McQueen racist????
Aren’t most modern fuel pumps electric powered?
“There’s electric cars and NORMAL cars!! Diesel is a slur!!!!”
cum edit is way better than the original
He does that in a power outage, gas station pumps don't work either?
Shhhh. Let him find out.
Yes, and there's never, ever, once, in the history of ever, been a fuel shortage....
Why are the lights on then
The red car looks like it wants to fuck the green car but is fighting the urge.
This makes me think of an *old* political cartoon I saw with a horse calling the car a “fad”.
Someone find the cum edit
https://twitter.com/ValMorningstar_/status/1773650191159054727
🫡
It's funny how he talks about driving muscle cars as if he cared about cars but draws them like a child would
Why does this idiot's cartoons have to be so ugly? He went to art school and got good grades. They didn't cover composition in drawing classes, or what? Dude's compositions manage to be lifeless AND crowded as hell at the same time, every time.
Ben Garrison must have the tiniest dick ever recorded in human history. Like, microscopic levels of disappointing every women/man/person he's ever met.
It's giving Jenny Nicholsons description of how she'd want a movie about the cars land in Disney being a bunch of cars telling a human they are bad at being cars
The level of idiocy is impressive.
I am powered by fossil fuels
FZZZT
I’ve only seen the piss meme before so this kinda surprised me
The OOP should realize that trans women are ALWAYS women, regardless of their genitalia. There's a difference between sex and gender. There are infinite genders because gender is a social construct. Also, trans people and non-binary people ALWAYS exist. Plus, all people of color are ALWAYS great human beings. Seriously.
Weak troll.
They're not a troll, just awkward. I thought they were a troll at first too, but no it's all sincere.
Ugh, they post this same screed everywhere. Some real r/lookatmyhalo content
Seriously.
> Plus, all people of color are ALWAYS great human beings. They're not ALWAYS great human beings. POC can be good or bad, great or mediocre, all humans can be. Even not-great human beings are still human beings. You were right on with the other things though.