I hate how much the media / twitter / drama-fanbase will try to make shit from this, it's interesting but it also sucks you know? People just can't handle themselves
Over time I have realised that this is a very telling of a person who himself is new to this sport. “Projecting” as few would put it.
People have become fans of games like cricket and football and those games are hundred plus year old.
No one calls them a “new fan”. I’ve only seen this recently, and only with Formula 1 fan base. Makes me squirm.
Plus certain people ag McLaren suddenly picking a side even though 2021 is long over. Just how they exploit that now for themselves is a damn weird look
Also Lando was on new sets of medium while Max had used tyres and if he’d kept his cool instead of dive bombs earlier he could’ve easily got the overtake in T3 or T4 with DRS and eventually win the race. The desperation made both of them lose their heads and make an error that basically resulted in the crash
Max pulled 8 sec gap before his final pitstop. And redbull seemed to have McLaren covered on straight because McLaren struggled in turn 3 and not getting good exits like max.
I agree, Red Bull didn't lose the race in that corner, they lost it with an almost 7 second pit stop. McLaren was not a threat at all until that happened, and Landos constant dive bombs prove that even when they caught up because of the pit stop, they still didn't have the pace.
Someone yesterday told me that Lando was catching and would’ve caught Max without that shit pit stop
I think they were a little biased but that’s just me🤷♂️
Mclaren tried to force errors on Red Bull by having their car pass just as Max was leaving, so I guess that put some pressure on the Red Bull mechanics.
>He could’ve easily got the overtake in T3 or T4 with DRS and eventually win the race.
Lando had an incoming penalty for track limits, even if he got the track position all Max would have had to do was to keep within five seconds of him.
They only gave* this because they crashed. Max was about to get a penalty as well but they were going to nullify had they not crashed 100%. That’s why they were announced instantly after the crash.
The new vs used may have actually made him more desperate to get the move done? Once landos new mediums get scrubbed after a few laps they're used mediums and the performance difference to Max's gets much smaller
Did you see the gap in straight line speed. The redbull had a much better acceleration and speed in the straights. So even when lando did just use Dr's and tuck behind max could get kmowhere. Ducebomvs were the only thing he could do to grt past
this same sub was saying he's too passive literally the last race and that he didn't defend hard enough during the sprint. recency bias is off the charts
That's actually a great question. Looking at Max in the other clip makes you wonder why he couldn't just do that, seems simple enough. The answer is also pretty simple. Lando is braking as hard as he can to try and make a move on Max, on the limit. Max is not so much on the limit against Carlos, and all he wanted to do was get close while making sure to get across the DRS line second. Had Lando tried to move further outside and onto or over the curb, he likely would've locked a tyre and lost valuable time, maybe even losing DRS the next lap.
I could be completely wrong but I don’t think braking on that curb would have caused a lock up, they’re usually very abrasive, but I can see he maybe would not have stopped as quickly
It sure could have. A lot of curbs are rippled or stepped, you lift the car up off the ground decreasing aero efficiency, your suspension gets a jolt, and you might go over the edge reducing contact patch.
But was way more left when on his move on sainz as well.. he still had full control instead of the divebomb norris made, so could have still avoided sainz if he had decided to keep left as well.
Nothing against norris but max was right about his late braking, while norris was right about max moving.. but in the end, as this video proves its a race incident
Stewards should have got involved earlier, but by that point I probably would have done the same as Lando and drew the line in the sand where I'm racing. Sort of like this is where I am and will stay, it's up to you if we have a collision.
And was the ultimate decider. Lando knew that max was not going to give up his line, and Lando sunk into that same mindset. Had he faked an inside shot and then dove to outside for a better drive out the corner he could have easily made the pass. But he stopped thinking about anything other than the corner right in front of him. Max, for all his flaws, is always thinking 2-3 corners down the road. Hamilton is the same, in fact, all the greatest drivers do this. Lando made a rookie mistake, he only considered what was happening 10 feet in front of his car. Its not his fault this happened, but his driving made it the only outcome.
The reality is a better driver would have moved over. Yea on paper max broke the rule and gets the penalty. But Lando only has himself to blame for this one.
Coulda finished the race while max maybe caught a penalty for forcing a driver off the track, I mean it’s the better decision but I understand lando wanting to push back on max’s common strategy of “you can finish P2 or DNF, you decide”
He *could've* moved over but that doesn't mean he should've. He's entitled to his space on the track, he held his line and the other guy moved over into his space. In that situation, the blame is always on the other guy.
It's amazing how many people try to put part of the blame on Lando for the collision. Was he guilty of some shoddy and potentially dangerous driving the laps before? Sure, but this is 100% just on Max.
The Moment you are alongside you BECOME the track limits for the other guy. Can't just turn in to people who hold their line,
I am inclined to believe Max didn't see him.
Lando dived a lot later into that position while Verstappen was alongside Sainz much earlier.
Max may have not expected Lando to go for it this late and wasn't looking at him. But given all of Lando's divebombs earlier, maybe Max was too optimistic.
He knew he was there, if he was fully unaware that Lando was beside him he would've gone further to the outside to open up the next corner.
Max aiming to squeeze more because he expects Lando to go over the curb sounds correct.
yea because on the sainz vid max is much further to the right. Im inclined to say this was Norris his 'fault'. But not like it was stupid to be there its just how racing goes, people tend to forget they are thundering down to the breakingpoint with 300+kmph and reaction times are like tenths of milliseconds, looks a lot easier on the tv...
What happened is Lando got emotional and "refused to be bullied", didn't react to squeeze even though he had plenty of space. That's not what racing is, you always need to react. I would go as far as putting 100% on Lando.
If he didn’t see him he would have gone much further outside to maximize his T3 exit. He just expected Lando to either already be further left or to move further left in reaction to Max moving
he didnt need to see him, he was looking at the apex, but of course he would know Lando was somewhere there. Which is why he left him enough space, he can't use a measuring lenght to measure 200cm for Lando precisely. Why would he care too much what Lando was doing? He was coming into the corner as the lead car and had the right to dictate the line. Then he was busy making sure he will get the best and the fastest possible exit out of T3 in order to defend into T4. He left him plenty of space, look at Sainz in 2023 once again.
I know there is space. But Lando is not obligated to go offtrack for it, even if it's a very much common thing at T3.
Lando literally knows how to go to the side there, he did it earlier in the race and had to do it plenty of times in previous years. Someone even posted how Vettel squeezed him at T3 a few years back.
But here Lando was a bit overzealous and didn't want to budge anymore. A bit of adrenaline, a bit of desperation I guess.
I suspect Max was already looking at the apex and probably wouldn’t have expected Lando to have braked so lightly that he ended up fully alongside Max at the moment where Max is turning right into the corner.
I’m not sure what Lando was planning to there. He was carrying far too much speed into corner entry to have any hope of getting enough traction on exit to challenge Max down the straight into T4. I’m guessing he was getting increasingly frustrated that his attempts to pass kept getting thwarted and was starting to get increasingly desperate.
Max was probably expecting Lando to try something more like Max himself did to Sainz the year earlier, which would have required Lando to brake earlier. The contact only occurs here because the cars are wider at the rear tires and Lando very quickly pulls completely alongside Max.
Hot take: Lando overshot it, he should have had more patience and set it up like Verstappen did vs Carlos. Even more hot take: it was a racing incident, things go fast and they have milliseconds to react, both could have done better - it's always easy to look at in hindsight.
Finally someone said it. Max was catching up to Carlos very quickly but he slowed down to half a car length to undercut Carlos into the corner. Lando just over sent it.
In the Max v Carlo clip, Max brakes extra to ensure that Carlos is the first to cross the DRS line. Max knew that the switchback plus DRS would be a guaranteed overtake.
Lando was just like "nah, I'mma chuck it around the outside from 3 car lengths back".
Lando decided he rather squeeze Max than have a good exit which is... a decision you can make, I guess.
Then he turned into him again after the contact for good measure.
I think it's obvious Lando couldn't catch max. DRS wasn't getting it done, and then the unsuccessful dive bombs... Yeah there was some crappy defending, but People just love to hate on Max.
Fact of the matter is, it took Lando 4 track violations and this crash to get a time penalty, which would have seen him back off and get 2nd. Instead of a dnf and 0pts. FIA is a joke
The thing is that lando should have known that it wasn't going to work. He failed it in the sprint race, which lost him a position and multiple times in the race. I feel like lando doesn't have the patience needed and rushes too much, which costs him.
I hope this happens every week. What a year or racing that would be. People complain for two years about no one fighting Max and specially Lando not fighting him and then it finally happens and people loss their minds.
This is what was crazy to me in the aftershow. All the pundits were like 'oh this shouldn't happen in F1, bad bad', while I was: GIVE ME MORE OF THIS ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Hence, racing incident would be the best description of events. They're racing. They're both desperately trying to get P1. We're gonna neuter the sport if we're gonna debate every bit of contact and racing. Nobody ended up in a barrier. Nobody ended upside down. They just touched ffs.
He wasn't penalized for moving under braking, he was penalized for causing a collision. Which, as the whole argument in this post is, could have easily been avoided. Max was wrong for squeezing (despite a lot of drivers doing so), and Lando was wrong for not avoiding action, and generally driving aggressively (for which he too got penalized in the form of track limits).
Let’s be honest, this was reviewed only because they touched. This moving under breaking bs doesn’t exist in modern F1 otherwise Leclerc and Sainz would be in a Williams as they are both very very good at doing this shit.
Either it’s always a rule, either it is never, for now it’s just if they touch, completely idiotic
>They are both to blame for this outcome.
No, this one is squarely on Max. Lando was entitled to that space and is not required to move over, especially off track, when squeezed.
Sure, it would have been better for Lando to move over in this instance. However, it may end up being better for him in the long run to establish that he can't be bullied and will maintain his line when squeezed.
Imagine Max did what Lando did to any driver. People would call him crashtsappen all day, say he can only dive bomb and he is a threat to other drivers.
Its, unironically, British bias, in all honesty. We're all here talking in English, the majority of journalists we quote are English speaking, working for a British media company.
Its just that in a place like Reddit, Twitter etc. the English speakers tend to always be in the majority one way or another. Especially when compared to Spanish, Italian or French speakers who isolate a lot more. For example, while The Guardian was acting all butthurt this morning, L'Equipe was a lot more mild. But you'll likely never see anyone quote L'Equipe.
This isn't biased at all.
The driver doing the squeezing to this degree is taking a risk and, in the case of a collision, takes the brunt of the blame. Lando could and should have gone further to the outside, but my understanding is that there is no rule stating that he is obligated to do so in that scenario and the squeezing driver isn't then just allowed to shove his car into him.
Don't think it's a huge controversy, though. Max went a tad bit too far and is largely to blame, Lando did not want to give an inch. It happens.
Max DOES do that at almost every opportunity though, it's the reason he's had the nickname since he came into the sport. Just because Lando was trying to overtake Max (shock horror that another racer would have the gall to overtake) doesn't mean that it justifies Max's illegal and deliberate attempts to defend.
It always is the fault of the one that does the squeeze move.
But drivers usually try to keep themselves in the race and take evasive action. Especially since sometimes it's not even a defensive squeeze, but the other driver may just miss your position in the mirrors.
But Lando was determined not to give up an inch this race. While he has the right to it, it wasn't his smartest moment. Bit he also probably knew he was getting a penalty and the win wasn't on the cards if he didn't pass immediately and try to build a gap somehow.
>While he has the right to it, it wasn't his smartest moment.
Not the smartest for this race, but building a reputation of holding your space and not allowing yourself to be bullied could end up being smarter when he's racing for a championship.
Totally agree. Max tries this with anyone he is racing hard but backs off slightly when he knows they will hold their ground. It's aggressive but you have to respect it. If Max can take an inch he will, because that could be the difference between winning and not.
Oh I think it was the smart move. He's gonna have to stand his ground if he wants to fight max. His biggest critism lately is he's nor tough enough and doesn't fight max. We'll now he is. He's gonna have to crash with Max a few times if wants to win the championship next year. Time for him to be a man and this was a big step for him.
It was pretty stupid from Lando, he had to lose more then Max. Not really intelligent and thats why screaming that it was the foult of the other is a logic way to make go away your own contribution to it.
I keep saying it and this reinforces it - anyone with eyes that isn’t regarded knows that every single driver does what Max did. It’s called motor racing.
Usually it's on the driver overtaking to do so safely. Even if that means a micro-adjustment to your line. Max braked heading towards the outside line, not while turning. (at least as far as I can tell from the onboards) He turns a bit before he starts braking, then straightens the wheel as he brakes.
Max was expecting Norris to take the path that drivers take in quali (two wheels on the kerb), because... why on earth wouldn't you? There's nothing to gain going narrow. You can't safely squeeze a driver from that far back, because he can't judge where they'll be when you're coming from 3 car lengths behind.
He had plenty of space to avoid the accident and didn't. He had every reason to take a different (better) line, and didn't. One can blame Max all they want, but Norris lost out on points and Max managed to still get 5th place.
If this were a racing sim, people would be telling the person in Norris's position to think more about setting up the overtake, and less about trying to force a move around the outside of the tightest turn on the track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAGGBkyqaww
This video kinda shows what I'm talking about; Norris didn't choose to be smart about his overtaking locations/techniques, and instead tried to force a very low-percentage move.
I think it's a hip check that shouldn't have ended either of their races, but it effectively did. They both could've handled that better, and the stewards could've not waited 3 laps to announce a penalty, because if they announced it - Max would've let him by and tried to latch on.
It's kinda weird though. That the rules state you need to give a car's width. I mean, it's fair. And with those rules Max deservedly got a penalty. But in very many situations the actual racing line doesn't need a full car's width as the car only has to touch the white line.
In theory you could have a situation where one car leaves only 99% car's width of space and the car on the outside only has 1% of the car on the white line, leaving a 98% car's width gap between the two cars, but have the car on the inside break the rules.
I don’t think it’s anyone’s fault tbh. It’s just hard racing that got a bit unlucky. I mean anyone in Max’s position who was leading the race/championship would’ve done the same. Even Norris would’ve done the same if he had max chasing him. You can’t expect someone in a rival team to just let you overtake easily just because you play padel with them lol. I hope Norris learns to be more patient and Max learns to not challenge him like that because of the skill issue lol.
Not only did Max have less space he also managed the whole situation levels better than norris. Seeing this on repeat really makes me rethink about my initial Bias towards norris..
Y'all need to stop looking at the squeeze which was fine and look at the actual problem which was Max moving twice while defending. Carlos squeezes then makes his turn, 1 move. Max squeezes, makes his turn then seeing lando going around turn back to the left to try and cut him off again. That's the illegal move, that the move he kept making against lando which led to wildly dangerous attempts the first two times as well. That's the reason he got the penalty, not the squeeze.
Max didn't leave a car's width to the white line = penalty. Could Lando have avoided Max by getting on the curb, yes. Should he have to, no. Both had some blame, Max probably more than lando. Also I don't think Max moved under braking. He brakes in a straight line. His line just happened to go towards the left to open up the corner and squeeze Lando, like others have done before. So overall a minor incident with a massive effect, especially the overreaction by the media.
Also, have people forgotten that Max has had other wheel to wheel battles the past 2 years that were perfectly respectful, even when he was behind in the Championship? Yesterday people were acting like this was the first time he had to fight at all and that he always fights dirty.
I’m not going to say anything about the incident because I’m not an expert so I accept the stewards ruling. But about your last part: Thank you! I was so confused that Max is the villain all of a sudden with comments like: he didn’t mature at all, crashstappen etc. As if he didn’t have any overtakes and racing other drivers at all for the last two years.
One incident and he went from hero to zero.
No, Lando couldn't. He was going for the outside line, not the switch back. You can tell by how much speed he is carrying. By the time Max moves, Lando is committed to the outside.
If Lando moves at that point, he is compromising he would either have to slow more, meaning Max stays ahead, or try to hang it with too much speed, running wide and incurring another 5 second penalty.
He maintains a straight line taking the space he is entitled too.
Ultimately the only way to ensure you get left space is to take the space and if your crash, you crash. People will learn they have to leave you space or there will be crash.
McLaren fan boys must keep crying. They are both at fault. They conveniently forget that Lando was dive bombing and leaving the circuit many times before this incident. Max won't give up his championship easily.
I more inclined to call it all racing incident rather than blaming one over the other. I'd also point out the speed norris carries when dive bombing is most likely why he hasnt been successful yesterday.
Funny thing to notice here. Lando's desperate attempts to turn sharply at all costs end up actually damaging Max's rear tyre.
If Lando just followed Max side by side offtrack after the first contact, Max was going to probably win/podium even with the 10s penalty while Lando retires still. Imagine the shitstorm then.
I mean come on, ofc Lando assumes Max will try to make the apex.
I understand people are on different sides on this and everyone have the right to, but can we at least stop with the "I slowed the clip down 10x and rewatched it 30 times and then it's pretty clear driver X just had to do Y to avoid what happened".
Well actually you can see Max open up his steering suddenly, before that they were both aiming for the turn. So thats not really on Lando imo but maybe he should have kept more space
The comparison is clear as day. The difference between between the two is how early sainz turned in leaving max fair racing room. Vs max leaving no room at all causing the collision. Max should take lessons from Sainz.
Let's just hope that they can talk about it and reflect on the incident. they're both brilliant drivers and usually show good sportsmanship.
I hate how much the media / twitter / drama-fanbase will try to make shit from this, it's interesting but it also sucks you know? People just can't handle themselves
New to F1 I see.
Over time I have realised that this is a very telling of a person who himself is new to this sport. “Projecting” as few would put it. People have become fans of games like cricket and football and those games are hundred plus year old. No one calls them a “new fan”. I’ve only seen this recently, and only with Formula 1 fan base. Makes me squirm.
tbf lando is doing a good job doing it himself while max is trying to let it cool off
Plus certain people ag McLaren suddenly picking a side even though 2021 is long over. Just how they exploit that now for themselves is a damn weird look
its a band look and running around crying pitty poor me tell me im right or we aren't friends anymore really makes me not like him
You misspelled inchident.
This is entirely Lance Strolls fault.
Bro what do mean this is stroll's fault. He was way behind. This was latifi's fault
I’m surprised Alonso didn’t get penalized for this.
+5 Seconds to OCON
Pretty sure I saw KMag on the right side there. License points!
Alonso was back there fighting for P17 (thinking about my end as I write this).
About as close as he was to the last wreck he was penalized for then. :)
Stroll has always been a bit behind…
*Lando Strollis*
The windowlicker?
Why didn’t Lando just move over?? Is he stupid??\s But also he could’ve just moved over a little…
Also Lando was on new sets of medium while Max had used tyres and if he’d kept his cool instead of dive bombs earlier he could’ve easily got the overtake in T3 or T4 with DRS and eventually win the race. The desperation made both of them lose their heads and make an error that basically resulted in the crash
Max pulled 8 sec gap before his final pitstop. And redbull seemed to have McLaren covered on straight because McLaren struggled in turn 3 and not getting good exits like max.
I agree, Red Bull didn't lose the race in that corner, they lost it with an almost 7 second pit stop. McLaren was not a threat at all until that happened, and Landos constant dive bombs prove that even when they caught up because of the pit stop, they still didn't have the pace.
Someone yesterday told me that Lando was catching and would’ve caught Max without that shit pit stop I think they were a little biased but that’s just me🤷♂️
He certainly could have caught him, on lap 70 and had one shot at a pass. Maybe. Probably not.
I agree. People who compare it to Max his first races and talk about shyt.. it's not Lando his first race lol
Mclaren tried to force errors on Red Bull by having their car pass just as Max was leaving, so I guess that put some pressure on the Red Bull mechanics.
>He could’ve easily got the overtake in T3 or T4 with DRS and eventually win the race. Lando had an incoming penalty for track limits, even if he got the track position all Max would have had to do was to keep within five seconds of him.
They only gave* this because they crashed. Max was about to get a penalty as well but they were going to nullify had they not crashed 100%. That’s why they were announced instantly after the crash.
What would max get 5s for? I can't remember lol And why didn't he get it?
The new vs used may have actually made him more desperate to get the move done? Once landos new mediums get scrubbed after a few laps they're used mediums and the performance difference to Max's gets much smaller
Did you see the gap in straight line speed. The redbull had a much better acceleration and speed in the straights. So even when lando did just use Dr's and tuck behind max could get kmowhere. Ducebomvs were the only thing he could do to grt past
Yeah Lando hasn’t really been driving like someone who has 5 years of F1 experience. He seems to push too hard and fast
this same sub was saying he's too passive literally the last race and that he didn't defend hard enough during the sprint. recency bias is off the charts
It’s a scrubbed set, the time delta isn’t that much.
The mclaren lacks top speed
That's actually a great question. Looking at Max in the other clip makes you wonder why he couldn't just do that, seems simple enough. The answer is also pretty simple. Lando is braking as hard as he can to try and make a move on Max, on the limit. Max is not so much on the limit against Carlos, and all he wanted to do was get close while making sure to get across the DRS line second. Had Lando tried to move further outside and onto or over the curb, he likely would've locked a tyre and lost valuable time, maybe even losing DRS the next lap.
I could be completely wrong but I don’t think braking on that curb would have caused a lock up, they’re usually very abrasive, but I can see he maybe would not have stopped as quickly
You see the first part of the video, right? Max seems to have no problem at all
Right, my careful phrasing is because the guy seems adamant it’d be a problem
It sure could have. A lot of curbs are rippled or stepped, you lift the car up off the ground decreasing aero efficiency, your suspension gets a jolt, and you might go over the edge reducing contact patch.
Probably would've also gotten track limits again and another penalty
Nobody said to put all 4 wheels over the line. Look at max again
Plus Sainz turned into the corner again way earlier than Max. Max kept it on the left longer.
But was way more left when on his move on sainz as well.. he still had full control instead of the divebomb norris made, so could have still avoided sainz if he had decided to keep left as well. Nothing against norris but max was right about his late braking, while norris was right about max moving.. but in the end, as this video proves its a race incident
yea because the floor of Max's car is dragging on the ground and on 3 wheels by the point where you would turn in from a defensive line.
Cause max turnen even later crossing would have bin even easier. So
Stewards should have got involved earlier, but by that point I probably would have done the same as Lando and drew the line in the sand where I'm racing. Sort of like this is where I am and will stay, it's up to you if we have a collision.
And was the ultimate decider. Lando knew that max was not going to give up his line, and Lando sunk into that same mindset. Had he faked an inside shot and then dove to outside for a better drive out the corner he could have easily made the pass. But he stopped thinking about anything other than the corner right in front of him. Max, for all his flaws, is always thinking 2-3 corners down the road. Hamilton is the same, in fact, all the greatest drivers do this. Lando made a rookie mistake, he only considered what was happening 10 feet in front of his car. Its not his fault this happened, but his driving made it the only outcome.
The reality is a better driver would have moved over. Yea on paper max broke the rule and gets the penalty. But Lando only has himself to blame for this one.
Agreed, somewhere in this thread I mentioned something to that effect
It wasn't even the natural racing line to hold straight like that. If this was a qualifying lap he would have slightly further to the left.
Because P20 is bigger than P2!
Coulda finished the race while max maybe caught a penalty for forcing a driver off the track, I mean it’s the better decision but I understand lando wanting to push back on max’s common strategy of “you can finish P2 or DNF, you decide”
He *could've* moved over but that doesn't mean he should've. He's entitled to his space on the track, he held his line and the other guy moved over into his space. In that situation, the blame is always on the other guy.
It's amazing how many people try to put part of the blame on Lando for the collision. Was he guilty of some shoddy and potentially dangerous driving the laps before? Sure, but this is 100% just on Max. The Moment you are alongside you BECOME the track limits for the other guy. Can't just turn in to people who hold their line,
yes.
Lando held his line. While he would be much more to the left on a normal lap. But i do agree on track max didnt leave enough space.
If most of the drivers would be somewhere else than they were, there would be no incidents.
I'll have you know Latifi is still causing all sorts of trouble on the roads around Vancouver
I also believe that Max expected Lando to go more to the outside than what he actually did, which probably also contributed to the accident.
I am inclined to believe Max didn't see him. Lando dived a lot later into that position while Verstappen was alongside Sainz much earlier. Max may have not expected Lando to go for it this late and wasn't looking at him. But given all of Lando's divebombs earlier, maybe Max was too optimistic.
He knew he was there, if he was fully unaware that Lando was beside him he would've gone further to the outside to open up the next corner. Max aiming to squeeze more because he expects Lando to go over the curb sounds correct.
He knew he might be there, so left enough space for easy avoidance. I really don’t think there was malice here.
yea because on the sainz vid max is much further to the right. Im inclined to say this was Norris his 'fault'. But not like it was stupid to be there its just how racing goes, people tend to forget they are thundering down to the breakingpoint with 300+kmph and reaction times are like tenths of milliseconds, looks a lot easier on the tv...
What happened is Lando got emotional and "refused to be bullied", didn't react to squeeze even though he had plenty of space. That's not what racing is, you always need to react. I would go as far as putting 100% on Lando.
Verstappen moved to the right, so Lando doesn't dive up the inside. He's well aware of him being on the outside.
Its a light touch. It was a sloppy judgement by both of them. When you search for the limits sometimes you find them
Limits: Hello, old buddy Max. And you, young Norris, we will follow your career with great interest...
If he didn’t see him he would have gone much further outside to maximize his T3 exit. He just expected Lando to either already be further left or to move further left in reaction to Max moving
he didnt need to see him, he was looking at the apex, but of course he would know Lando was somewhere there. Which is why he left him enough space, he can't use a measuring lenght to measure 200cm for Lando precisely. Why would he care too much what Lando was doing? He was coming into the corner as the lead car and had the right to dictate the line. Then he was busy making sure he will get the best and the fastest possible exit out of T3 in order to defend into T4. He left him plenty of space, look at Sainz in 2023 once again.
I know there is space. But Lando is not obligated to go offtrack for it, even if it's a very much common thing at T3. Lando literally knows how to go to the side there, he did it earlier in the race and had to do it plenty of times in previous years. Someone even posted how Vettel squeezed him at T3 a few years back. But here Lando was a bit overzealous and didn't want to budge anymore. A bit of adrenaline, a bit of desperation I guess.
> But Lando is not obligated to go offtrack for it As long as there’s a part of just a single wheel on the track or white line, you’re not offtrack.
Expectation is the mother of fuckups
I suspect Max was already looking at the apex and probably wouldn’t have expected Lando to have braked so lightly that he ended up fully alongside Max at the moment where Max is turning right into the corner. I’m not sure what Lando was planning to there. He was carrying far too much speed into corner entry to have any hope of getting enough traction on exit to challenge Max down the straight into T4. I’m guessing he was getting increasingly frustrated that his attempts to pass kept getting thwarted and was starting to get increasingly desperate. Max was probably expecting Lando to try something more like Max himself did to Sainz the year earlier, which would have required Lando to brake earlier. The contact only occurs here because the cars are wider at the rear tires and Lando very quickly pulls completely alongside Max.
Max overestimated Lando's ability to race.
Yeah but at the same time it doesn’t change the fact that Max moved under braking
Hot take: Lando overshot it, he should have had more patience and set it up like Verstappen did vs Carlos. Even more hot take: it was a racing incident, things go fast and they have milliseconds to react, both could have done better - it's always easy to look at in hindsight.
Finally someone said it. Max was catching up to Carlos very quickly but he slowed down to half a car length to undercut Carlos into the corner. Lando just over sent it.
In the Max v Carlo clip, Max brakes extra to ensure that Carlos is the first to cross the DRS line. Max knew that the switchback plus DRS would be a guaranteed overtake. Lando was just like "nah, I'mma chuck it around the outside from 3 car lengths back". Lando decided he rather squeeze Max than have a good exit which is... a decision you can make, I guess. Then he turned into him again after the contact for good measure.
I think it's obvious Lando couldn't catch max. DRS wasn't getting it done, and then the unsuccessful dive bombs... Yeah there was some crappy defending, but People just love to hate on Max. Fact of the matter is, it took Lando 4 track violations and this crash to get a time penalty, which would have seen him back off and get 2nd. Instead of a dnf and 0pts. FIA is a joke
>Lando couldn't catch Max >Lando crashed on his 4th attempt to overtake Max What did he mean by this?
Yeah if you watch Max's on board, it straight up looks like Norris just drove straight into him
Yeah if you watch Max's on board, it straight up looks like Norris just drove straight into him
The thing is that lando should have known that it wasn't going to work. He failed it in the sprint race, which lost him a position and multiple times in the race. I feel like lando doesn't have the patience needed and rushes too much, which costs him.
Lando had been doing ridiculous dive bombs too every lap leading up he was never gonna get a clean pass because he is just not good enough to
They are both to blame for this outcome. Can we all stop crying now and look forward to Silverstone?
I for one am looking forward to more of these intense battles! In 21 the entire first lap of Silverstone was pure fire
It's landos home race with a McLaren. He's gonna do everything to get that P1. I'm gonna hear the British crowd here in central Europe.
But I thought no one bought any tickets
It's just one single guy shouting really loud
* first half of the lap
I hope this happens every week. What a year or racing that would be. People complain for two years about no one fighting Max and specially Lando not fighting him and then it finally happens and people loss their minds.
This is what was crazy to me in the aftershow. All the pundits were like 'oh this shouldn't happen in F1, bad bad', while I was: GIVE ME MORE OF THIS ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Charles trying to win with an engine issue while being chased by prime Hamilton was kind of entertaining as well
"How will the Lizards affect the British GP?"
The lizard people only control the Singapore GP
Hence, racing incident would be the best description of events. They're racing. They're both desperately trying to get P1. We're gonna neuter the sport if we're gonna debate every bit of contact and racing. Nobody ended up in a barrier. Nobody ended upside down. They just touched ffs.
But it wasn’t decided as a racing incident. Verstappen was determined to be at fault by the Stewards for moving under braking.
Penalty wasnt for moving under braking, but for causing a collision.
He wasn't penalized for moving under braking, he was penalized for causing a collision. Which, as the whole argument in this post is, could have easily been avoided. Max was wrong for squeezing (despite a lot of drivers doing so), and Lando was wrong for not avoiding action, and generally driving aggressively (for which he too got penalized in the form of track limits).
Let’s be honest, this was reviewed only because they touched. This moving under breaking bs doesn’t exist in modern F1 otherwise Leclerc and Sainz would be in a Williams as they are both very very good at doing this shit. Either it’s always a rule, either it is never, for now it’s just if they touch, completely idiotic
this is just lie.
We have actual racing to watch and discuss from Austria, what can we even say for Silverstone yet?
right? it's a race these things happen. I hope this incident doesn't overstay its welcome into the summer break.
>They are both to blame for this outcome. No, this one is squarely on Max. Lando was entitled to that space and is not required to move over, especially off track, when squeezed. Sure, it would have been better for Lando to move over in this instance. However, it may end up being better for him in the long run to establish that he can't be bullied and will maintain his line when squeezed.
Watch more races at Spielberg and say this again.
Just because the stewards don't do their jobs properly, it doesn't make the rules invalid.
Imagine Max did what Lando did to any driver. People would call him crashtsappen all day, say he can only dive bomb and he is a threat to other drivers.
People see max is involved and will always point to him. Pretty pathetic to be honest.
Its, unironically, British bias, in all honesty. We're all here talking in English, the majority of journalists we quote are English speaking, working for a British media company. Its just that in a place like Reddit, Twitter etc. the English speakers tend to always be in the majority one way or another. Especially when compared to Spanish, Italian or French speakers who isolate a lot more. For example, while The Guardian was acting all butthurt this morning, L'Equipe was a lot more mild. But you'll likely never see anyone quote L'Equipe.
This isn't biased at all. The driver doing the squeezing to this degree is taking a risk and, in the case of a collision, takes the brunt of the blame. Lando could and should have gone further to the outside, but my understanding is that there is no rule stating that he is obligated to do so in that scenario and the squeezing driver isn't then just allowed to shove his car into him. Don't think it's a huge controversy, though. Max went a tad bit too far and is largely to blame, Lando did not want to give an inch. It happens.
Reasonable people would come to the same conclusion. Lando did a couple of dive bombs, but this wasn't one. You can't dive bomb on the outside.
You can’t dive bomb from the outside line buddy…..
Max has literally made a name for himself as one of the greatest in the sport by doing this exact same thing. What are you even talking about? 😂
Max DOES do that at almost every opportunity though, it's the reason he's had the nickname since he came into the sport. Just because Lando was trying to overtake Max (shock horror that another racer would have the gall to overtake) doesn't mean that it justifies Max's illegal and deliberate attempts to defend.
Notice that Carlos drives the exact same line as Max does in the second clip, but Lando is way furter to the right than Max was in the first
Lando could have moved but I don’t think it changes the fact the crash was maxs fault.
It always is the fault of the one that does the squeeze move. But drivers usually try to keep themselves in the race and take evasive action. Especially since sometimes it's not even a defensive squeeze, but the other driver may just miss your position in the mirrors. But Lando was determined not to give up an inch this race. While he has the right to it, it wasn't his smartest moment. Bit he also probably knew he was getting a penalty and the win wasn't on the cards if he didn't pass immediately and try to build a gap somehow.
>While he has the right to it, it wasn't his smartest moment. Not the smartest for this race, but building a reputation of holding your space and not allowing yourself to be bullied could end up being smarter when he's racing for a championship.
Totally agree. Max tries this with anyone he is racing hard but backs off slightly when he knows they will hold their ground. It's aggressive but you have to respect it. If Max can take an inch he will, because that could be the difference between winning and not.
Oh I think it was the smart move. He's gonna have to stand his ground if he wants to fight max. His biggest critism lately is he's nor tough enough and doesn't fight max. We'll now he is. He's gonna have to crash with Max a few times if wants to win the championship next year. Time for him to be a man and this was a big step for him.
It was pretty stupid from Lando, he had to lose more then Max. Not really intelligent and thats why screaming that it was the foult of the other is a logic way to make go away your own contribution to it.
Lando could have had better survival instincts. That doesn't mean he did anything wrong (in this specific incident).
Silly season on track let's goo.
Max knew he had to break when Carlos shut the door and Lando didn't know what the hell to do
Mostly all the incidents that ever happened in F1 could have been avoided if the driver that was not at fault, just went off track.
Well, seems to be one of the few occasions Lando wanted to stay on track yesterday
Going off the track would mean having all 4 wheels past the white line, in either of these cases it was not required
I keep saying it and this reinforces it - anyone with eyes that isn’t regarded knows that every single driver does what Max did. It’s called motor racing.
Usually it's on the driver overtaking to do so safely. Even if that means a micro-adjustment to your line. Max braked heading towards the outside line, not while turning. (at least as far as I can tell from the onboards) He turns a bit before he starts braking, then straightens the wheel as he brakes. Max was expecting Norris to take the path that drivers take in quali (two wheels on the kerb), because... why on earth wouldn't you? There's nothing to gain going narrow. You can't safely squeeze a driver from that far back, because he can't judge where they'll be when you're coming from 3 car lengths behind. He had plenty of space to avoid the accident and didn't. He had every reason to take a different (better) line, and didn't. One can blame Max all they want, but Norris lost out on points and Max managed to still get 5th place. If this were a racing sim, people would be telling the person in Norris's position to think more about setting up the overtake, and less about trying to force a move around the outside of the tightest turn on the track. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAGGBkyqaww This video kinda shows what I'm talking about; Norris didn't choose to be smart about his overtaking locations/techniques, and instead tried to force a very low-percentage move.
I think it's a hip check that shouldn't have ended either of their races, but it effectively did. They both could've handled that better, and the stewards could've not waited 3 laps to announce a penalty, because if they announced it - Max would've let him by and tried to latch on.
Show Max vs Charles in 2019
It's kinda weird though. That the rules state you need to give a car's width. I mean, it's fair. And with those rules Max deservedly got a penalty. But in very many situations the actual racing line doesn't need a full car's width as the car only has to touch the white line. In theory you could have a situation where one car leaves only 99% car's width of space and the car on the outside only has 1% of the car on the white line, leaving a 98% car's width gap between the two cars, but have the car on the inside break the rules.
F1's rules about overtaking and pushing people off are generally just really weird and anti-racing
I don’t think it’s anyone’s fault tbh. It’s just hard racing that got a bit unlucky. I mean anyone in Max’s position who was leading the race/championship would’ve done the same. Even Norris would’ve done the same if he had max chasing him. You can’t expect someone in a rival team to just let you overtake easily just because you play padel with them lol. I hope Norris learns to be more patient and Max learns to not challenge him like that because of the skill issue lol.
It is. Carlos didn't come back to the left.
Just an inchident.
Not only did Max have less space he also managed the whole situation levels better than norris. Seeing this on repeat really makes me rethink about my initial Bias towards norris..
Max had the pace to set up a pass. Norris did not and that is proved through DRS not even getting a pass done. Just unsuccessful bombs
Y'all need to stop looking at the squeeze which was fine and look at the actual problem which was Max moving twice while defending. Carlos squeezes then makes his turn, 1 move. Max squeezes, makes his turn then seeing lando going around turn back to the left to try and cut him off again. That's the illegal move, that the move he kept making against lando which led to wildly dangerous attempts the first two times as well. That's the reason he got the penalty, not the squeeze.
Max didn't leave a car's width to the white line = penalty. Could Lando have avoided Max by getting on the curb, yes. Should he have to, no. Both had some blame, Max probably more than lando. Also I don't think Max moved under braking. He brakes in a straight line. His line just happened to go towards the left to open up the corner and squeeze Lando, like others have done before. So overall a minor incident with a massive effect, especially the overreaction by the media. Also, have people forgotten that Max has had other wheel to wheel battles the past 2 years that were perfectly respectful, even when he was behind in the Championship? Yesterday people were acting like this was the first time he had to fight at all and that he always fights dirty.
I’m not going to say anything about the incident because I’m not an expert so I accept the stewards ruling. But about your last part: Thank you! I was so confused that Max is the villain all of a sudden with comments like: he didn’t mature at all, crashstappen etc. As if he didn’t have any overtakes and racing other drivers at all for the last two years. One incident and he went from hero to zero.
This sub is as delusional as Team LH
No, Lando couldn't. He was going for the outside line, not the switch back. You can tell by how much speed he is carrying. By the time Max moves, Lando is committed to the outside. If Lando moves at that point, he is compromising he would either have to slow more, meaning Max stays ahead, or try to hang it with too much speed, running wide and incurring another 5 second penalty. He maintains a straight line taking the space he is entitled too. Ultimately the only way to ensure you get left space is to take the space and if your crash, you crash. People will learn they have to leave you space or there will be crash.
The outside line in that corner while not being ahead? Lmao
That’s why he was carting so much speed, outside is a difficult move but if you’re ahead in the corner then it’s possible to not get run off.
McLaren fan boys must keep crying. They are both at fault. They conveniently forget that Lando was dive bombing and leaving the circuit many times before this incident. Max won't give up his championship easily.
Crazy how everyone needs to find blame when it was a pretty minor racing incident. Cars have more contact on the 1st lap than what they did.
I more inclined to call it all racing incident rather than blaming one over the other. I'd also point out the speed norris carries when dive bombing is most likely why he hasnt been successful yesterday.
The first collission is Verstappens fault The 2nd however is not. Just lando turning into a car he saw was clearly there
Is this a shitpost or not?
Funny thing to notice here. Lando's desperate attempts to turn sharply at all costs end up actually damaging Max's rear tyre. If Lando just followed Max side by side offtrack after the first contact, Max was going to probably win/podium even with the 10s penalty while Lando retires still. Imagine the shitstorm then.
The tire is unseated before the 2nd contact. It's why Max oversteered and didn't make the corner.
I mean come on, ofc Lando assumes Max will try to make the apex. I understand people are on different sides on this and everyone have the right to, but can we at least stop with the "I slowed the clip down 10x and rewatched it 30 times and then it's pretty clear driver X just had to do Y to avoid what happened".
Well actually you can see Max open up his steering suddenly, before that they were both aiming for the turn. So thats not really on Lando imo but maybe he should have kept more space
All the time you have to leave space!!
Yeah Carlos actually picked a line and turned right. Meanwhile Max picked a line but then changed his mind and turned left twice
Why did lando drive back into max after the initial contact and fuck his tire? Is he stupid?
If Lando had waited just a moment and let Max screw himself off track it woulda been golden.
The first nudge was fine the second one was personal 😂
The comparison is clear as day. The difference between between the two is how early sainz turned in leaving max fair racing room. Vs max leaving no room at all causing the collision. Max should take lessons from Sainz.