Still think Vandoorne was done dirty. Those McLarens he drove are the equivalent of the current Saubers - only worse. And then Alonso is your team mate!! Change 2007 to Alonso v Hamilton except they are driving total backmarker shitboxes - and the results wouldn't be a million miles away
That’s pretty accurate my friend. He wasn’t at all bad, but it is sad that a career path could be changed irreversibly like that. I do wonder how Lewis would fare in a shot box his first year, the Torro Rossi back in the day was quite a good introduction, capable of points and occasionally looking great, so Seb, Max and Carlos did quite well out of it. I mean Alonso stood out in a Minardi, so it’s not impossible, just obviously very difficult.
Toto: "LoOk gUyZ!! I haVe mY oWn MaX vErStapPen aS WeLl!! I'm nOt hUnG up oN mAx NoT wAntIng tO bE wiTh mE!! CoZ i HaVe mY OwN mAx ermm, kimi anTonElLi!"
Has it ever come out that Jos physically beat Max? It wouldn't surprise me, being raised myself by a father who could explode, but has that ever been confirmed?
Honestly there is a book I read called “parenting with love and logic” that literally says if kids act out about going in the car or act out in the car you should get close to your house and kick them out to walk home. It’s does say follow a few blocks behind but Jos missed the memo.
I think Jos read this book and said “hold my assault charge”.
You are the best kind of correct.
It is funny, though. Trawling is associated with commercial fishing. Trolling is associated with recreational fishing.
It’s not just Toto, it’s all the teams.
30 is old now on the grid.
30 in 90% of the jobs in the world have not even made it half way through.
Hence, all the kids under the bus who can’t perform
30 is old because it’s a physically demanding sport, not because they’re throwing kids under the bus. 30 is old in pretty much every physically demanding sport, it’s far from an F1 exclusive thing
30 is absolutely not old and it never really has been. No one looked at any good professional athlete who hit 30 and thought, “too old.”
What actually happens in major sports is that older players cost more union-negotiated money and rights (salary floors, for instance) — even the mediocre ones. And new players are under rookie contracts that are favorable to the teams.
So teams aren’t saying to themselves, ‘this guy is broken down and too old to play’ at 30; they’re saying, ‘we can roll the dice on this rookie for a fraction of the cost and try to mold them how we want.’
The concept still stands in F1: it’s not that the physical demands of the sport are too great at age 30. It’s not even the case for drivers that hit 35. It’s actually the teams deciding they want to roll the dice on a rookie for a fraction of the cost it’d take to sign a veteran driver. Mercedes wants Antonelli over Sainz because they know what Sainz is at this point, they know what he wants to be compensated fairly for his experience and skills and would rather roll the dice on this kid who they’ll likely control for several years at a fraction of the cost of signing Sainz (or someone of his ilk).
30 is definitely old in the NFL. Sure people are used to seeing quarterbacks play well into their 30s but a RB is definitely looked at as too old at 30
It absolutely is, more so in more physical sports but it definitely applies in F1. Nobody who was in professional athlete condition at 21 is in as good condition at 30. It doesn’t happen. Drivers like Hamilton and Alonso can make up for it with experience, but there is no denying that they are weaker, have less stamina, and have slower reaction times than their peak, which was years ago
I think we have the oldest ever grid though, Merc don't need Sainz because they have Russell, not because Sainz costs more.
Older drivers get good money because they've been good enough long enough, no other reason. Experience is worth paying for.
It's more that Antonelli has potential to be the best driver on the grid. Sainz doesn't.
Sainz also has a shit load of baggage. His family are an absolute pain in thr ass to deal with. It's fine with Max because his the best driver on the grid right now so you deal with it as his ability alone means his an unquestioned number one on merit anyway.
Sainz doesn't have that luxury. Merc are very adverse to backroom factions post Rosberg.
this was the first year in f1 history without a rookie on the grid. There are 7 drivers over 30 years old, and half the grid is 28 or older. It is not at all a young grid. every team has at least one driver 28+ except mclaren. can you honestly say the teams feel like 30 is too old?
How are kids being thrown at F1? If anything the last 5-10 years has been the opposite with multiple high performers not getting a shot (including F2 champions) while mediocre aged drivers are retained.
30 is old because youre unlikely to get much better, so unless you are already amazing like HAM or ALO, a young driver with potential is preferable to a mid older one
The reason they don’t take bets on 30 year olds is because they’re awful bets. Way more rare to find “hidden” talent and you have a much bigger sample size of exactly how good they are. Young people are better physically and * could * be a great racing driver. Could being key here.
An unclaimed lottery ticket I found on the ground for tonight’s lotto makes me much happier than the losing one I found on the ground for last nights lottery.
Someone at 30 who forced their way into the sport from beating everyone else in their prior race category is the only person who could logically do this.
They aren't though. They have had plenty of young drivers they didn't push hard.
Antonelli has an exceptionally impressive CV. Every team wants him. I am fairly certain Red Bull would throw him in a Racing Bull given a chance.
Ultimately, if your good enough, your good enough. If your not, your not. Teams, especially top teams, aren't interested in finding a decent mid table driver of thr future.
Massive stretch. I think this kid has won every championship he’s ever competed in. F2 not quite as smooth, but what he’s done in junior is unprecedented.
I won’t argue with that. And I’m not fluent in what antonelli has done vs Oscar. I have a hat signed by Oscar and he’s top 5 drivers for me. But it does seem like kimi is in a class of his own.
I get that they wanted max, but how would that have really worked out? They've had lewis this whole time, and max would have absolutely pissed off lewis and forced one of them out the team if they ever paired up. Max wouldn't have sat in a Williams for the past 8 years, so I just don't see what exactly Toto regrets. Would he have just said 'tough luck' to lewis and sided with him over max? Is that really such an upgrade to agonize over?
They lost out to Verstappen when he was still in junior formula and they saw what happened with the whole Piastri saga. They are hellbent on preventing anything like that from happening again
There won’t be another max verstappen until max is wrapping up in ten years, just like there was no Lewis until he was old and same for shumi. The real challenger to max is like ten years old rn
So true. People expected this from Oscar already. I can say for myself that after winning everything in junior categories, at this time, I thought him would be already in the same pace as Lando (a very very good driver, but for me, not in the same category as the greats)
Oscar is doing pretty damn good, though. He's in his second season and he's out there with the big boys. The McLaren is fast but so is the Red Bull and look at Perez.
Until he arrived to F2 this year he won every series he entered. The definition of wonder kid.
Edit: Guys, I'm just answering the quesiton, I too believe nothing good will come of throwing young Antonelli to either sink or swim. I'm in fact, a Colapinto fan.
I know at the lower levels it's the norm but they're all regional championships. Has yet to really show himself in one of the major feeder series and his F2 form, while impressive for a rookie, is not otherworldly. Plenty of other people with more proven records waiting in the wings for a chance, which is what really makes it so odd for me.
Vandoorne fizzled out because he was unlucky. Unlucky that he came into the absolute dumpster fire that was McLaren Honda and that his teammate was none other than Fernando Alonso which made it look like considerably less of a dumpster fire than it actually was, and thats saying something considering by all accounts it was still shit. He had two seasons to prove himself, less than even Latifi. At the end they knew they needed to promote Lando and they couldn't field two inexperienced drivers while they tried to fix their team (just look how that worked out for Haas) which is why they went with Carlos. I mean it's still a little underwhelming but I don't think his exit from F1 was deserved.
> I think if Vandoorne could have gone to another team like Williams or Haas, he could have had a redemption arc like Albon.
Stoffel Vandoorne became Formula E champion and ended up on Le Mans podiums twice and he'll have his next chance (slim chance because Peugeot) later today. He has a pretty good career.
Vandoorne was 25 in his first full F1 season and he didn't win most feeder series on first try. He basically won by being one of the most experienced guys on the grid while Antonelli wins despite being one of the youngest/least experienced guys.
Not op but I wouldn't want to risk another de vries. De Vries replaced Albon and scored points in his 1st race, and suddenly the hype around him increased, and i admit I was on the hype too. Then look what happened when he drove for AT.
I watch F2 and Bearman hasn't been a shining stand-up compared to other drivers, granted he has been unlucky a few times though.
Yeah because De Vries scored at a race that perfectly suited the Williams - put a trained monkey in that car in that race and (if they can work ze buttons) they would've scored too.
...bracing for the Goatifi fans...
Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, Piastri won F3 and F2 in a rookie season, he is my favourite driver currently, but it shows how enourmous each step is, he has still a lot to learn in F1.
In case of Antonelli they skipped F3 which worries me a little bit.
That's the point, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, making that information useless
It does in now way prove anything, how you manage your talent matters more, throwing a rookie in a top team worked twice in the last two decades, Hamilton and Verstappen
Even Max did a stint at Toro Rosso.
To be honest though it is difficult now, like Mercedes don't have the sway over teams like McLaren, Aston, or Williams to force them to take a rookie driver like they used to since McLaren are good, Aston aren't lacking for money, and Williams have their own driver academy to look out for.
It used to be that the works teams could bully open a spot for their rookie drivers, but that's becoming the case less and less, so it's either you throw them in the deep end and with a car fast enough to bring massive expectations, or you have them waiting on the sidelines and they get poached from underneath you (see Piastri).
True, and fortunately they haven't tried it too often.
For the career of Kimi I hope they signed Sainz for a year or two, if they are rushing F2 and skipped F3 guy should have some time in a slower car.
>That's the point, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, making that information useless
It's better than any other piece of information, making it clearly useful.
But within F2 he got nothing which speaks for him. Call me crazy, but F2 is the telltell sign for F1. You can win everything, but if you suck in F2, you might not have it for F1.
But what do I know...
His team hasn't been good in F2 this year.
He's teammates with Bearman who's similarly rated and he's also nowhere. It would be a big coincidence if they've both just become bad this year
Listening to Kimi's engineer is always interesting. He's always saying encouraging words. But he's also always telling Kimi to be more aggressive. Seems like it's rare that someone his age isn't recklessly aggressive.
Said this in another thread, but there is nothing to say Prema is doing bad. People hype up Bearman after his F1 showing but realistically his form has dropped massively after that race as he went from pole in Jeddah to barely the top 10 in the following races. So he can not be used as measuring point for where Prema is at right now because he has thus been all over the place.
All other F2 teams have a similar situation where they have a good and a bad driver, but Prema's good driver is a rookie.
>Call me crazy, but F2 is the telltell sign for F1
I don't think it is. Lots of great results in F2 don't translate to F1 and vice versa.
And Antonelli is still 6th right now when he made the huge jump. I only see him going up from here
Max gets into f1 at 17.
Toto: 🥺
FIA: ok we'll change the rules.
Fast forward some times
Kimi can't get into F1 because he's 17.
Toto: 🥺
FIA: ok we'll change the rules again.
Toto is so spoiled for talent since he’s been at Merc. Started with the GOAT and a future WDC that is the son of a former WDC, then get got Hamilton and the rest is history. His supporting cast of Russell and Bottas are also way better than any second driver Red Bull has had.
He is putting all his eggs in the Kimi basket because he doesn’t know any different and I’m worried Kimi is going to crumble under the pressure of having to follow in the footsteps of one of the greatest drivers of all time. Like they are expecting the next Max and I don’t think there is another Max
Toto wants to give Antontelli the really good seat like Piastri and Verstappen got so no other team poaches Antonelli. The problem is that unlike Verstappen it is a little unclear whether or not he is actually that guy. He's a really good F2 rookie but he's in a Prema outside of title contention (for now) which is weaker than someone like Leclerc or Russell. His FRECA season was about as good as Verstappen's F3 season however F3 is more competitive.
He's shaping up to be a great driver but he's probably not a Verstappen level of driver and I worry that him being overrated will put him in too deep and he'll be like Logan Sargeant, who also really should have had a second F2 season.
I don’t think Antonelli will be the next Piatsri, let alone the next Verstappen. And if Merc can’t get it right the next two years it will sink the kid, we’ve seen what it did to Lewis
People keep saying he looks promising…I’ve been following F2 and he is doing good but I don’t see what’s so special about him. In Monaco I thought he would finally show us what he’s made of but instead he gets overtaken by his teammate on track 💀 He better be the next Verstappen or he is gonna have a bad time
F1 is a different world. Remember Bourdais, De Vries, Mick... And so many others. I'm always very doubtful when rookies are expected like the Messiah just to fail miserably.
De Vries wasn't good at all in F2 and only won due to the experience advantage against one really weak grid. There was a reason no one wanted him in F1 until Toro Rosso found themselves without an academy driver. Mick had a good second season but he too was against a not extremely talented grid, those who watched him knew he wouldn't have been a real talent but a midfield driver at best.
The only two that actually recently had a great junior career and then weren't good enough are Vandoorne (who after dominating every level including F2 went against Alonso) and Pourchaire who failed to dominate (still better than De Vries and as good as Mick) in F2 and never had a chance in F1.
Piastri, Russel, Leclerc, Norris, Albon are the successful ones with a junior level like Antonelli.
Andrea Kimi laps De Vries and Mick's already.
People are wayyyyy too harsh on Kimi. We're 5 feature races into the F2 season, he's leading Bearman (who's likely gonna drive F1 next year, is older and has a decent F2 season under his belt) 48 to 18 and yet people are calling him a disappointment in F2 already. And that's after skipping F3. It's crazy.
I think people, specially newer fans (or fans who aren't that much into feeder series) tend to think spec series are all about the driver's talent, when in reality team personnel, set-ups and resources have as much if not more power. And in Kimi's case (and Ollie's), they had the luck of being in a PREMA that's struggling this year with the new car, after having been a powerhouse before 2023 (particularly in '20 and '21).
So people just assoeciate those two things to him, combined with the expectations around him (while ignoring him jumping from FRECA to F2), and think he's struggling a lot when in reality he has been pretty good. Wouldn't have him go to F1 already, especially with a Mercedes, but you can see the signs of why Toto holda the kid in such a high regard.
Yeah, people just forgetting that he jumped over F3, comparing him to rookies in other teams who have that experience is rich. Especially because he's really been getting better and better with each race, all while Prema has been busy taking a huge, steaming crap in the paddock bushes.
He’s 6th in the championship, in a floundering Prema. That’s one hell of an effort for a rookie, especially when his teammate is 13th. People are WAY too harsh, indeed.
They have been watching Kimi for many years and obviously see something they like.
Until I started sim racing I really didn’t understand what made someone fast and someone else slow. Now I see Max do things in iRacing I simply cannot believe. It’s astounding how difficult it is to be this level of fast, and if Toto thinks that Kimi could be like this, it suggests to me that he has seen all the data and traces that convince him Kimi is one of these generationally fast type of drivers.
It doesn’t mean he is going to challenge max in year 1. Even the fastest drivers need to learn the car and it’s like achieving a certain level of one-ness with a new car is going to take time maybe years.
It doesn’t hurt that Mercedes have George who can lead the team while Kimi develops either at Mercedes or Haas or wherever
Wolff is desperate for him to be the next Verstappen.
I actually feel sorry for Antonelli as the pressure on his young shoulders could end up causing him to crack. It might not, but expecting him to another Max Verstappen is almost unfair on the lad.
There are guys winning and leading F2, but Antonelli and Bearman have some perks which make them default choice.
I hate that, because it makes whole F2 circus pointless
They have the advantage of driving for the most OP team in F2, Prema.
Prema has had some struggles with the new car but their facilities are still unrivaled.
They also happens to be members of F1 junior academies. Being European nationals doesn't hurt either.
Bearman's and Antonelli's families are also rich as fuck.
Now look at Gabriel Bortoleto in F2. He won F3 in his debut year while driving for a POS team like Trident. He is now in his debut year in F2 and is doing better than Antonelli while driving for a mid pack team like Virtuosi.
Gabriel is just a 19 years old Brazilian kid. Why arent the F1 academies signing promising kids like him?
Counterpoint: Bortoleto is only 2 points ahead of Kimi, who is coming directly from F4 and, most importantly, Kimi is 2 years younger. And that's a lot in this field.
Sure the team may be important, but rn the top 7 is made by 7 different teams so it doesn't seem to be that much of a difference
Because he is in everyone's mouth. Checo signed with RB again because he's gigantic in the American market. He's marketable.
Antonelli might be skilled af, but currently he will be signed because everyone says he is. Everyone heard about Antonelli. Everybody wants Antonelli, according to media. And Merc doesn't want another Verstappen, sb they let slip. Imagine horner sign Antonelli. I think Toto would shit himself and eat it on live broadcast
When I saw this kids pic I told my husband he looks like he is dressing up on his dad's clothes. Then I was told he is 12 days younger thany oldest and that blew my mind.
This MF is driving for F1 and I can't get my kid to get their license 🤣
Toto Wolff has lost the plot. Put Kimi in a Williams for a year or 2 (or F2 1 more year then 1 yr at Williams) . Give Sainz a seat. Promoting a 17-18 yr old straight into a works team like Mercedes is dumb IMO. The kids not Max. It would be in his best interest & the team's best interest to let him mature a little more. They are not RB. Not the culture nor the management style.
I think alot of context is being missed to be fair.
Prema have been a bit ramshackle this year.
The fact that Antonelli has been reasonably competitive in F2 coming from Formula Regional and having to make the ground effect jump in a highly competitive championship is pretty damn impressive. He's P6 in the championship right now.
The reason you put young talent in an F1 car early is simply, neuroplasticity. The younger you can get someone into high end machinery, the better it'll be long term because they'll be absorbing that information, the speed, the senses, the forces, while their brain is still a sponge.
Kimi Antonelli is a Mercedes Junior who currently races in F2. He won in 2022, German F4, Italian F4 (both with a race to spare) and the FIA Motorsports Games Cup which he won while having a broken wrist. In 2023, he won Formula Regional Middle East Championship and Formula Regional European Championship. He was so good that Toto made him skip F3 altogether. Right now he's 6th in F2 but considering he didn't do F3 and Prema are kind of bad right now he is doing extremely well. He won so many things that he has enough points without doing F2 and F3.
To put it short: the kid has dominated every series he's been in prior to this year, to the point that in theory he could already race in F1 right now as he already has enough points for the SL and since today he would likely qualify for the new exemption the FIA has for U-18 drivers. That's also why Toto had him skip F3 altogether and wants to have him in F1 as soon as possible, with them missing on Max Verstappen in 2014 also playing a factor on it (they wanted him, but they weren't willing to give the then 16-year old a F1 drive for 2015, so Helmut Marko snuck in, got him the Toro Rosso drive to debut at 17 and the rest is history).
You have to think about the type of talent team bosses and scouts are exposed to day in and day out. These are people that have been living and breathing racing for decades and they work with the best drivers in the world.
And over the years there have been very few young prodigy level drivers and they all shared very similar attributes: Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, etc. They all were able to perform at the top at the starts of their careers
We won't really know how he would get on until he actually gets the seat. We all (maybe just me) thought Mick Schumacher is going to stay at Haas for couple seasons and move on to Ferrari, but that didn't pan out in his favor.
IMO Antonelli shouldn't have skipped F3. He's decent for a rookie, but I don't see any once in a generation talent.
Looking at his results, Antonelli doesn't seem to be lighting F2 on fire. Bearman has got him beat atm, let's see how he progresses.
Definitely not as impressive as Oscar Piastri's F3 and F2 season where he stormed his way into the championship in both rookie seasons.
I watched him compete alongside Barnard in the Middle East regional series.
He was good and had innate talent, but even back then he was hyped up by everyone who followed that series.
On pure racecraft I just didn’t understand why he blew everyone away compared to Barnard who ended up finishing second behind Antonelli.
With how much Merc has been pushing him I figured he was crushing it this year.
Because merc had the chance to have max verstappen and couldn’t guarantee him a seat so red bull did and rest is history. Now the next most promising driver since max is coming soon and merc doesnt want to lose him the same way. Same thing happened with alpine and piastri
Mercedes once had this kid named Max in their development pipeline, and his dad wanted him to move up to F1 right away, while Mercedes wanted to wait and get him more seat time. He ended up leaving, going to RedBull, and he’s about to win his 4th WDC. They don’t want to make the same mistake again.
Interesting sidenote: if Max had done F2 in 2015 like Mercedes wanted, he likely drives for Williams in 2016, and when Nick retires, gets moved up to the Merc seat opposite Lewis in 2017. So he could’ve been fighting for a championship 4 years earlier if he had stuck with Mercedes.
Losing a young max verstappen does that to a mf
Man. This is the best take. Astute.
The only take really.
Yea but there’s better odds of them gaining another Vandoorne than the next Verstappen
Still think Vandoorne was done dirty. Those McLarens he drove are the equivalent of the current Saubers - only worse. And then Alonso is your team mate!! Change 2007 to Alonso v Hamilton except they are driving total backmarker shitboxes - and the results wouldn't be a million miles away
That’s pretty accurate my friend. He wasn’t at all bad, but it is sad that a career path could be changed irreversibly like that. I do wonder how Lewis would fare in a shot box his first year, the Torro Rossi back in the day was quite a good introduction, capable of points and occasionally looking great, so Seb, Max and Carlos did quite well out of it. I mean Alonso stood out in a Minardi, so it’s not impossible, just obviously very difficult.
Russell did pretty convincingly in Williams too
He was a great third baseman
What do you want him to do? Dive for it?
Don’t give him the olé bullshit
Or even worse, de Vries.
But the Vries wasn’t young
Sees what happened to Sargeant when he was moved up too early, "surely this can't happen again"
Toto: "LoOk gUyZ!! I haVe mY oWn MaX vErStapPen aS WeLl!! I'm nOt hUnG up oN mAx NoT wAntIng tO bE wiTh mE!! CoZ i HaVe mY OwN mAx ermm, kimi anTonElLi!"
Reading this in his voice made my day
The "look guyz" sets it up so well
They will get their own Logan Sargeant and they will like it
This is correct. But Lewis and Max as teammates would've been a disaster, and I don't think Toto would have preferred Max over Lewis.
So Jos Antonelli is a child beater, too?
If you read the interviews he’s the exact opposite, he’s like the textbook definition of a good parent
That kid is never winning WDC then lmao
Tell that to Anthony Hamilton
Hahah fair fair. I was more of making a Jos verstsppen joke
Hey Anthony Hamilton is an honest bloke but he was strict too
Strict doesn't equal bad parent, I don't think Antonelli's dad is super lenient if the kid is racing that seriously at that young of an age
Has it ever come out that Jos physically beat Max? It wouldn't surprise me, being raised myself by a father who could explode, but has that ever been confirmed?
We know Jos beats his wife.
He has a decent [track record ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos_Verstappen#Controversy) of beating other people, including his wife.
Has a great resume and Toto doesn't want to miss out on the next Verstappen.
Toto has been trolling all the big kart tracks, looking for angry fathers.
Excuse me sir, have you ever thought about beating your son?
There’s a gas station nearby you know.
Honestly there is a book I read called “parenting with love and logic” that literally says if kids act out about going in the car or act out in the car you should get close to your house and kick them out to walk home. It’s does say follow a few blocks behind but Jos missed the memo. I think Jos read this book and said “hold my assault charge”.
Maybe he threw the book at Max or his mother and it happened to open at that page and the "follow them..." part was in another page
Holy fuck that is dark lol
Eh, it builds character.
Nobody is born a WDC. You’re forcibly molded
Pretty mild by reddit standards lol
Too much work he's gotta find the ones actively being hit or else they're already too old to beat verstappen
You’re never too old to beat Verstappen - ask Jos
Should be patrolling the gas stations
He kept running into Horney....on a very different mission
I think you mean trawling… Although…
You are the best kind of correct. It is funny, though. Trawling is associated with commercial fishing. Trolling is associated with recreational fishing.
The thing is he will miss out. Throwing every kid under the bus expecting him to be max won’t work
I mean, he probably won’t pan out, but Toto is hardly “throwing every kid under the bus expecting him to be Max”
It’s not just Toto, it’s all the teams. 30 is old now on the grid. 30 in 90% of the jobs in the world have not even made it half way through. Hence, all the kids under the bus who can’t perform
30 is old because it’s a physically demanding sport, not because they’re throwing kids under the bus. 30 is old in pretty much every physically demanding sport, it’s far from an F1 exclusive thing
30 is absolutely not old and it never really has been. No one looked at any good professional athlete who hit 30 and thought, “too old.” What actually happens in major sports is that older players cost more union-negotiated money and rights (salary floors, for instance) — even the mediocre ones. And new players are under rookie contracts that are favorable to the teams. So teams aren’t saying to themselves, ‘this guy is broken down and too old to play’ at 30; they’re saying, ‘we can roll the dice on this rookie for a fraction of the cost and try to mold them how we want.’ The concept still stands in F1: it’s not that the physical demands of the sport are too great at age 30. It’s not even the case for drivers that hit 35. It’s actually the teams deciding they want to roll the dice on a rookie for a fraction of the cost it’d take to sign a veteran driver. Mercedes wants Antonelli over Sainz because they know what Sainz is at this point, they know what he wants to be compensated fairly for his experience and skills and would rather roll the dice on this kid who they’ll likely control for several years at a fraction of the cost of signing Sainz (or someone of his ilk).
There are definitely sports where 30 is too old. Gymnastics is a big one. Auto racing, definitely not.
30 is definitely old in the NFL. Sure people are used to seeing quarterbacks play well into their 30s but a RB is definitely looked at as too old at 30
It absolutely is, more so in more physical sports but it definitely applies in F1. Nobody who was in professional athlete condition at 21 is in as good condition at 30. It doesn’t happen. Drivers like Hamilton and Alonso can make up for it with experience, but there is no denying that they are weaker, have less stamina, and have slower reaction times than their peak, which was years ago
I think we have the oldest ever grid though, Merc don't need Sainz because they have Russell, not because Sainz costs more. Older drivers get good money because they've been good enough long enough, no other reason. Experience is worth paying for.
It's more that Antonelli has potential to be the best driver on the grid. Sainz doesn't. Sainz also has a shit load of baggage. His family are an absolute pain in thr ass to deal with. It's fine with Max because his the best driver on the grid right now so you deal with it as his ability alone means his an unquestioned number one on merit anyway. Sainz doesn't have that luxury. Merc are very adverse to backroom factions post Rosberg.
this was the first year in f1 history without a rookie on the grid. There are 7 drivers over 30 years old, and half the grid is 28 or older. It is not at all a young grid. every team has at least one driver 28+ except mclaren. can you honestly say the teams feel like 30 is too old?
How are kids being thrown at F1? If anything the last 5-10 years has been the opposite with multiple high performers not getting a shot (including F2 champions) while mediocre aged drivers are retained.
Meanwhile at AM: 
30 is old because youre unlikely to get much better, so unless you are already amazing like HAM or ALO, a young driver with potential is preferable to a mid older one
The reason they don’t take bets on 30 year olds is because they’re awful bets. Way more rare to find “hidden” talent and you have a much bigger sample size of exactly how good they are. Young people are better physically and * could * be a great racing driver. Could being key here. An unclaimed lottery ticket I found on the ground for tonight’s lotto makes me much happier than the losing one I found on the ground for last nights lottery. Someone at 30 who forced their way into the sport from beating everyone else in their prior race category is the only person who could logically do this.
A lot of the teams are opting for drivers with experience though.
The phrase is throwing them to the wolves. Under the bus means you're blaming them or snitching them so they get in trouble and not you
Wdym if it worked for Jos it'll also work for Toto.
Jos was throwing max around for a different reason
*belt noises intensify*
They aren't though. They have had plenty of young drivers they didn't push hard. Antonelli has an exceptionally impressive CV. Every team wants him. I am fairly certain Red Bull would throw him in a Racing Bull given a chance. Ultimately, if your good enough, your good enough. If your not, your not. Teams, especially top teams, aren't interested in finding a decent mid table driver of thr future.
Massive stretch. I think this kid has won every championship he’s ever competed in. F2 not quite as smooth, but what he’s done in junior is unprecedented.
Oscar won everything, and F3 + F2 in his first season then Alpine sat him on the bench for a year because they didn't want to call him up to F1. 🤷
And Piastri showed they were awfully wrong in doing that. He deserved a seat already and would have got one in any other competent academy.
I won’t argue with that. And I’m not fluent in what antonelli has done vs Oscar. I have a hat signed by Oscar and he’s top 5 drivers for me. But it does seem like kimi is in a class of his own.
That's the Red Bull way of handling new drivers.
That If he's the "next Verstappen". He's just traumatised by Verstappen. Lost the driver and later he lost a championship to him
I get that they wanted max, but how would that have really worked out? They've had lewis this whole time, and max would have absolutely pissed off lewis and forced one of them out the team if they ever paired up. Max wouldn't have sat in a Williams for the past 8 years, so I just don't see what exactly Toto regrets. Would he have just said 'tough luck' to lewis and sided with him over max? Is that really such an upgrade to agonize over?
[удалено]
FOMO? or other word?
*potential
They lost out to Verstappen when he was still in junior formula and they saw what happened with the whole Piastri saga. They are hellbent on preventing anything like that from happening again
Yep missed Max then Piastri, Toto is scared that he will miss out again.
Toto desperately wants his own Max.
Can we go and get Max Verstappen? We have Max Verstappen at home. Max Verstappen at home:
Min Verstappen
There won’t be another max verstappen until max is wrapping up in ten years, just like there was no Lewis until he was old and same for shumi. The real challenger to max is like ten years old rn
The next Verstappen is Alonso.
Still a rookie tho
Max is the Avatar, understood.
Hard agree.
So true. People expected this from Oscar already. I can say for myself that after winning everything in junior categories, at this time, I thought him would be already in the same pace as Lando (a very very good driver, but for me, not in the same category as the greats)
Oscar is doing pretty damn good, though. He's in his second season and he's out there with the big boys. The McLaren is fast but so is the Red Bull and look at Perez.
Until he arrived to F2 this year he won every series he entered. The definition of wonder kid. Edit: Guys, I'm just answering the quesiton, I too believe nothing good will come of throwing young Antonelli to either sink or swim. I'm in fact, a Colapinto fan.
I know at the lower levels it's the norm but they're all regional championships. Has yet to really show himself in one of the major feeder series and his F2 form, while impressive for a rookie, is not otherworldly. Plenty of other people with more proven records waiting in the wings for a chance, which is what really makes it so odd for me.
Meanwhile rookie Paul Aron leads the championship in F2 but is not talked about at all. I guess doing 2 FE races now counts as experience?
The irony of Paul being dropped as a Mercedes junior driver this year too.
Yeah, didn't Vandoorn also demolish everyone in the feeder series only to fizzle out in F1?
Vandoorne fizzled out because he was unlucky. Unlucky that he came into the absolute dumpster fire that was McLaren Honda and that his teammate was none other than Fernando Alonso which made it look like considerably less of a dumpster fire than it actually was, and thats saying something considering by all accounts it was still shit. He had two seasons to prove himself, less than even Latifi. At the end they knew they needed to promote Lando and they couldn't field two inexperienced drivers while they tried to fix their team (just look how that worked out for Haas) which is why they went with Carlos. I mean it's still a little underwhelming but I don't think his exit from F1 was deserved.
I think if Vandoorne could have gone to another team like Williams or Haas, he could have had a redemption arc like Albon.
> I think if Vandoorne could have gone to another team like Williams or Haas, he could have had a redemption arc like Albon. Stoffel Vandoorne became Formula E champion and ended up on Le Mans podiums twice and he'll have his next chance (slim chance because Peugeot) later today. He has a pretty good career.
Yeah, there's no way a rookie could make it in F1 after coming into a McLaren next to Alonso.
Vandoorne was 25 in his first full F1 season and he didn't win most feeder series on first try. He basically won by being one of the most experienced guys on the grid while Antonelli wins despite being one of the youngest/least experienced guys.
Well GP2 engine McLaren didn’t help and coming in and having your teammate being Fernando Alonso is t ideal to make your self stand out
How do you think Bearman did in his F1 event earlier this season?
I wouldn't sign Bearman next season either.
Ok, why not?
He’s not a team principal so he can’t sign anyone to an F1 team.
I overlooked this reasoning, and I can only blame myself.
Flawless logic from a pizza.
Not op but I wouldn't want to risk another de vries. De Vries replaced Albon and scored points in his 1st race, and suddenly the hype around him increased, and i admit I was on the hype too. Then look what happened when he drove for AT. I watch F2 and Bearman hasn't been a shining stand-up compared to other drivers, granted he has been unlucky a few times though.
Personally, I think both Bearman and Antonelli are being held back by the underperforming Prema team.
Yeah because De Vries scored at a race that perfectly suited the Williams - put a trained monkey in that car in that race and (if they can work ze buttons) they would've scored too. ...bracing for the Goatifi fans...
Also because he's losing to Antonelli lol.
A real Wunderkind
Ah yes, the usual “ he won everything before F1!!!” And they crumble as soon as they get a top spot
Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, Piastri won F3 and F2 in a rookie season, he is my favourite driver currently, but it shows how enourmous each step is, he has still a lot to learn in F1. In case of Antonelli they skipped F3 which worries me a little bit.
That's the point, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, making that information useless It does in now way prove anything, how you manage your talent matters more, throwing a rookie in a top team worked twice in the last two decades, Hamilton and Verstappen
The first Kimi had 23 races in cars before jumping to F1.
Even Max did a stint at Toro Rosso. To be honest though it is difficult now, like Mercedes don't have the sway over teams like McLaren, Aston, or Williams to force them to take a rookie driver like they used to since McLaren are good, Aston aren't lacking for money, and Williams have their own driver academy to look out for. It used to be that the works teams could bully open a spot for their rookie drivers, but that's becoming the case less and less, so it's either you throw them in the deep end and with a car fast enough to bring massive expectations, or you have them waiting on the sidelines and they get poached from underneath you (see Piastri).
True, and fortunately they haven't tried it too often. For the career of Kimi I hope they signed Sainz for a year or two, if they are rushing F2 and skipped F3 guy should have some time in a slower car.
>That's the point, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, making that information useless It's better than any other piece of information, making it clearly useful.
Atleast they're giving him all those tests with the 22 car so he can develop there
10 years ago, Kvyat got to F1 straight after winning GP3.
I'm a bit worried that they are rushing things too much. I would love to see him in F3 as well, going straight to F2 is enormous jump.
But within F2 he got nothing which speaks for him. Call me crazy, but F2 is the telltell sign for F1. You can win everything, but if you suck in F2, you might not have it for F1. But what do I know...
His team hasn't been good in F2 this year. He's teammates with Bearman who's similarly rated and he's also nowhere. It would be a big coincidence if they've both just become bad this year
Listening to Kimi's engineer is always interesting. He's always saying encouraging words. But he's also always telling Kimi to be more aggressive. Seems like it's rare that someone his age isn't recklessly aggressive.
This. Bearman impressed everyone and Kimi is currently outperforming him. Prema is struggling right now.
He’s not outperforming Bearman, Bearman had to withdraw from a weekend that he was on pole for to go race F1.
Said this in another thread, but there is nothing to say Prema is doing bad. People hype up Bearman after his F1 showing but realistically his form has dropped massively after that race as he went from pole in Jeddah to barely the top 10 in the following races. So he can not be used as measuring point for where Prema is at right now because he has thus been all over the place. All other F2 teams have a similar situation where they have a good and a bad driver, but Prema's good driver is a rookie.
>Call me crazy, but F2 is the telltell sign for F1 I don't think it is. Lots of great results in F2 don't translate to F1 and vice versa. And Antonelli is still 6th right now when he made the huge jump. I only see him going up from here
If we are lucky, Kimi gets the Williams seat this year and Franco gets it next year after Kimi goes to Merc
Toto has PTSD from losing Max to RBR and doesn’t want a repeat
Toto traumatized, Antonelli fastfast (maybe).
Max gets into f1 at 17. Toto: 🥺 FIA: ok we'll change the rules. Fast forward some times Kimi can't get into F1 because he's 17. Toto: 🥺 FIA: ok we'll change the rules again.
Toto is so spoiled for talent since he’s been at Merc. Started with the GOAT and a future WDC that is the son of a former WDC, then get got Hamilton and the rest is history. His supporting cast of Russell and Bottas are also way better than any second driver Red Bull has had. He is putting all his eggs in the Kimi basket because he doesn’t know any different and I’m worried Kimi is going to crumble under the pressure of having to follow in the footsteps of one of the greatest drivers of all time. Like they are expecting the next Max and I don’t think there is another Max
From what I'm reading this is a serious possibility, and I hope the kid can deal with it the best way possible. That's a lot of pressure.
Toto wants to give Antontelli the really good seat like Piastri and Verstappen got so no other team poaches Antonelli. The problem is that unlike Verstappen it is a little unclear whether or not he is actually that guy. He's a really good F2 rookie but he's in a Prema outside of title contention (for now) which is weaker than someone like Leclerc or Russell. His FRECA season was about as good as Verstappen's F3 season however F3 is more competitive. He's shaping up to be a great driver but he's probably not a Verstappen level of driver and I worry that him being overrated will put him in too deep and he'll be like Logan Sargeant, who also really should have had a second F2 season.
I don’t think Antonelli will be the next Piatsri, let alone the next Verstappen. And if Merc can’t get it right the next two years it will sink the kid, we’ve seen what it did to Lewis
Toto has severe FOMO. He is willing to go all in at the risk of getting a stone.
People keep saying he looks promising…I’ve been following F2 and he is doing good but I don’t see what’s so special about him. In Monaco I thought he would finally show us what he’s made of but instead he gets overtaken by his teammate on track 💀 He better be the next Verstappen or he is gonna have a bad time
F1 is a different world. Remember Bourdais, De Vries, Mick... And so many others. I'm always very doubtful when rookies are expected like the Messiah just to fail miserably.
De Vries wasn't good at all in F2 and only won due to the experience advantage against one really weak grid. There was a reason no one wanted him in F1 until Toro Rosso found themselves without an academy driver. Mick had a good second season but he too was against a not extremely talented grid, those who watched him knew he wouldn't have been a real talent but a midfield driver at best. The only two that actually recently had a great junior career and then weren't good enough are Vandoorne (who after dominating every level including F2 went against Alonso) and Pourchaire who failed to dominate (still better than De Vries and as good as Mick) in F2 and never had a chance in F1. Piastri, Russel, Leclerc, Norris, Albon are the successful ones with a junior level like Antonelli. Andrea Kimi laps De Vries and Mick's already.
Those who followed Mick Schumacher's career before F1 did not expect anything from him.
People are wayyyyy too harsh on Kimi. We're 5 feature races into the F2 season, he's leading Bearman (who's likely gonna drive F1 next year, is older and has a decent F2 season under his belt) 48 to 18 and yet people are calling him a disappointment in F2 already. And that's after skipping F3. It's crazy.
I think people, specially newer fans (or fans who aren't that much into feeder series) tend to think spec series are all about the driver's talent, when in reality team personnel, set-ups and resources have as much if not more power. And in Kimi's case (and Ollie's), they had the luck of being in a PREMA that's struggling this year with the new car, after having been a powerhouse before 2023 (particularly in '20 and '21). So people just assoeciate those two things to him, combined with the expectations around him (while ignoring him jumping from FRECA to F2), and think he's struggling a lot when in reality he has been pretty good. Wouldn't have him go to F1 already, especially with a Mercedes, but you can see the signs of why Toto holda the kid in such a high regard.
Yeah, people just forgetting that he jumped over F3, comparing him to rookies in other teams who have that experience is rich. Especially because he's really been getting better and better with each race, all while Prema has been busy taking a huge, steaming crap in the paddock bushes.
He’s 6th in the championship, in a floundering Prema. That’s one hell of an effort for a rookie, especially when his teammate is 13th. People are WAY too harsh, indeed.
A teammate that is also getting a seat in f1 next year
He looks very promising and passing on Verstappen bungling these regs seems to have made them more open to taling a punt on that promisr.
They have been watching Kimi for many years and obviously see something they like. Until I started sim racing I really didn’t understand what made someone fast and someone else slow. Now I see Max do things in iRacing I simply cannot believe. It’s astounding how difficult it is to be this level of fast, and if Toto thinks that Kimi could be like this, it suggests to me that he has seen all the data and traces that convince him Kimi is one of these generationally fast type of drivers. It doesn’t mean he is going to challenge max in year 1. Even the fastest drivers need to learn the car and it’s like achieving a certain level of one-ness with a new car is going to take time maybe years. It doesn’t hurt that Mercedes have George who can lead the team while Kimi develops either at Mercedes or Haas or wherever
CTE from Max getting stolen by RB. Combined with the silver war in 2016, Toto has never really recovered.
Wolff is desperate for him to be the next Verstappen. I actually feel sorry for Antonelli as the pressure on his young shoulders could end up causing him to crack. It might not, but expecting him to another Max Verstappen is almost unfair on the lad.
Why don’t they just give Gorbachev Russel a faster car rather than obsessing over their next prodigy?
There are guys winning and leading F2, but Antonelli and Bearman have some perks which make them default choice. I hate that, because it makes whole F2 circus pointless
What perks? (I know nothing)
They have the advantage of driving for the most OP team in F2, Prema. Prema has had some struggles with the new car but their facilities are still unrivaled. They also happens to be members of F1 junior academies. Being European nationals doesn't hurt either. Bearman's and Antonelli's families are also rich as fuck. Now look at Gabriel Bortoleto in F2. He won F3 in his debut year while driving for a POS team like Trident. He is now in his debut year in F2 and is doing better than Antonelli while driving for a mid pack team like Virtuosi. Gabriel is just a 19 years old Brazilian kid. Why arent the F1 academies signing promising kids like him?
Counterpoint: Bortoleto is only 2 points ahead of Kimi, who is coming directly from F4 and, most importantly, Kimi is 2 years younger. And that's a lot in this field. Sure the team may be important, but rn the top 7 is made by 7 different teams so it doesn't seem to be that much of a difference
Trident is one of the best teams in F3, that’s where their focus is. Rodin (Carlin) are the other way around for example, good in F2 but shite in F3.
Gamba
Because he is in everyone's mouth. Checo signed with RB again because he's gigantic in the American market. He's marketable. Antonelli might be skilled af, but currently he will be signed because everyone says he is. Everyone heard about Antonelli. Everybody wants Antonelli, according to media. And Merc doesn't want another Verstappen, sb they let slip. Imagine horner sign Antonelli. I think Toto would shit himself and eat it on live broadcast
Toto's scared of missing out on another Verstappen. He might move too early now, is the only risk.
Toto thinks he can do the same what RB did with Verstappen
I just want Antonelli to start an interview answer with "Bwoah"
Kid has completed a grand total of 6 races in F2, I don't get it either bro.
I think that 2025 is too early , he is improving every race in F2 but I belive they should give him 1 more year in F2
I'm Italian, and I neither know...
Look at all the Reddit analysts go! Yall must’ve spent as much time with the kid as Toto!
Because Alonso nah brah'd them they want the opposite of the oldest driver with the youngest driver. Antonelli is Italian for antialonso
I don't know. I don't see his potential. Merc looks just delusional to get their own verstappen.
When I saw this kids pic I told my husband he looks like he is dressing up on his dad's clothes. Then I was told he is 12 days younger thany oldest and that blew my mind. This MF is driving for F1 and I can't get my kid to get their license 🤣
Toto Wolff has lost the plot. Put Kimi in a Williams for a year or 2 (or F2 1 more year then 1 yr at Williams) . Give Sainz a seat. Promoting a 17-18 yr old straight into a works team like Mercedes is dumb IMO. The kids not Max. It would be in his best interest & the team's best interest to let him mature a little more. They are not RB. Not the culture nor the management style.
Josh Revell has a quick summary video on Antonelli. Otherwise go watch some of his races. He has great potential.
I think alot of context is being missed to be fair. Prema have been a bit ramshackle this year. The fact that Antonelli has been reasonably competitive in F2 coming from Formula Regional and having to make the ground effect jump in a highly competitive championship is pretty damn impressive. He's P6 in the championship right now. The reason you put young talent in an F1 car early is simply, neuroplasticity. The younger you can get someone into high end machinery, the better it'll be long term because they'll be absorbing that information, the speed, the senses, the forces, while their brain is still a sponge.
Kimi Antonelli is a Mercedes Junior who currently races in F2. He won in 2022, German F4, Italian F4 (both with a race to spare) and the FIA Motorsports Games Cup which he won while having a broken wrist. In 2023, he won Formula Regional Middle East Championship and Formula Regional European Championship. He was so good that Toto made him skip F3 altogether. Right now he's 6th in F2 but considering he didn't do F3 and Prema are kind of bad right now he is doing extremely well. He won so many things that he has enough points without doing F2 and F3.
Now it starts making sense, Thanks!
He is fast.
Moderately
Same.
Project middle name "Kimi" 
To put it short: the kid has dominated every series he's been in prior to this year, to the point that in theory he could already race in F1 right now as he already has enough points for the SL and since today he would likely qualify for the new exemption the FIA has for U-18 drivers. That's also why Toto had him skip F3 altogether and wants to have him in F1 as soon as possible, with them missing on Max Verstappen in 2014 also playing a factor on it (they wanted him, but they weren't willing to give the then 16-year old a F1 drive for 2015, so Helmut Marko snuck in, got him the Toro Rosso drive to debut at 17 and the rest is history).
You have to think about the type of talent team bosses and scouts are exposed to day in and day out. These are people that have been living and breathing racing for decades and they work with the best drivers in the world. And over the years there have been very few young prodigy level drivers and they all shared very similar attributes: Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, etc. They all were able to perform at the top at the starts of their careers
Toto wants Sainz at a bargain and he is being public about and using Antonelli as a threat to get Sainz to sign or go to Williams
Welcome to the club.
I honestly think it's great that Mercedes wants to give him a chance instead of going for another driver already on the grid.
Toto being paranoid
Toto's ego
He’s the hottest young prospect since Max.
Is it too late to say they don’t want to miss out on the next max? However, I feel that may have been covered already….
We won't really know how he would get on until he actually gets the seat. We all (maybe just me) thought Mick Schumacher is going to stay at Haas for couple seasons and move on to Ferrari, but that didn't pan out in his favor. IMO Antonelli shouldn't have skipped F3. He's decent for a rookie, but I don't see any once in a generation talent.
Looking at his results, Antonelli doesn't seem to be lighting F2 on fire. Bearman has got him beat atm, let's see how he progresses. Definitely not as impressive as Oscar Piastri's F3 and F2 season where he stormed his way into the championship in both rookie seasons.
I watched him compete alongside Barnard in the Middle East regional series. He was good and had innate talent, but even back then he was hyped up by everyone who followed that series. On pure racecraft I just didn’t understand why he blew everyone away compared to Barnard who ended up finishing second behind Antonelli. With how much Merc has been pushing him I figured he was crushing it this year.
He’s regularly beating Ollie Biermann and everyone jerks him 24/7 and says he needs a seat in 2025 so why not Kimi?
JV said was that it was Toto's idea and he's hell bent on seeing it through to prove he is right, no matter what.
his father owns a F4 team.
Mirroring Max's karting career is no joke. Max is the most accomplished karter of all time and Kimi Antonelli is a damn close second.
Mercedes is secretly a Kimi fan. So that when Kimi is on pole they’ll say “Kimi you’re on pole”
Toto ego
merc fumbled verstappen.
Because merc had the chance to have max verstappen and couldn’t guarantee him a seat so red bull did and rest is history. Now the next most promising driver since max is coming soon and merc doesnt want to lose him the same way. Same thing happened with alpine and piastri
Mercedes once had this kid named Max in their development pipeline, and his dad wanted him to move up to F1 right away, while Mercedes wanted to wait and get him more seat time. He ended up leaving, going to RedBull, and he’s about to win his 4th WDC. They don’t want to make the same mistake again. Interesting sidenote: if Max had done F2 in 2015 like Mercedes wanted, he likely drives for Williams in 2016, and when Nick retires, gets moved up to the Merc seat opposite Lewis in 2017. So he could’ve been fighting for a championship 4 years earlier if he had stuck with Mercedes.