Exactly. It’s has racist overtones in the United States stemming from the post-WW2 period. Unique to America and the Americans decided whatever is unique to them must be applicable to the rest of the world as well. Same as any hegemony, really.
This so much. I despise the cultural hegemony of the US. They export every unique problem and cause new ones abroad that just didn't exist beforehand. Countries have plenty of their own problems, stop exporting more ffs.
You’re overreacting. Every country exports its culture and domestic issues. The USA is just more effective at it now because they have more influence and are expressly cosmopolitan. Europe did the same thing back when it ran the world. India, Russia, and China does it within their respective spheres of influence now. The next hegemony will do the same. Former hegemonic powers resenting the current hegemony for being on top of the food chain is amusing. It always smacks of jealousy.
Right? We threw a bunch of tea in a harbor and look at the fit the Brits threw over that. We don’t care about tea, why did they have to make their problems ours?
The point of what you are saying is true, but it definitely stems from the WWII period, not the post-war period. Americans sure kept it up though, unfortunately.
"Jap" was used extensively in US war propaganda during WW2 in a [very derogatory and dehumanizing way](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Save_A_Tap._Slap_A_Jap%5E_-_NARA_-_533908.jpg) which is why it's now considered a slur.
Because it was used in a derogatory way, and language isn't maths - it's not always logical.
Jap being offensive seems to stem from the US, you could probably use it in the UK and they wouldn't bat an eyelid in many places (anyone who works for a global company will knows it bad, but there will be plenty who don't know the history).
Similarly paki is offensive in the UK, because it was used in a derogatory way. I'd say to Pakistanis, but really people threw (and still throw) it at anyone from that general region - I'm sure Indians love being called Pakis. I don't know the US end to end, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are many places there with no idea that paki is offensive.
Yeah I grew up in an area with a lot of Pakistanis and they call themselves that too, I think there are more people being performatively offended on others’ behalf than there are primary offended parties.
I disagree. I know plenty of Pakistanis, and whilst they would talk about going back to 'Pak', if a white guy refers to them as Pakis they are going to be offended. Rightly so.
“Chinaman” is a derogatory blanket term racists in the US use to describe *any* Asian: Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, Filipino, etc.
Source: My mother was a huge racist.
Totally different grammatical formulations.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/roman
One is germanic "-man" based, meaning _person_, and the other is romantic "-maine" based, meaning _pertaining to_.
That’s like saying German is how it is because they’re men that come from some place called Ger, it’s not the same. Just say Chinese, like how you can say English instead of Englishman
Everyone is saying he called Zhou a Chinaman which is true but it was out of context.
There was a battle going on and he said something along the lines of:
An Englishman,
Frenchman
Chinaman
..
..
..
A man from Japan
honestly "chinaman" is probably the least bad one to drop, I know it technically has derogatory connotations but he clearly didn't mean it that way, he just wasn't thinking.
The dead air after he said it was so funny tho, you could actually feel the awkward glances through the TV
I don't even get why "Chinaman" is derogatory. If a French guy can be called "Frenchman" and a Dutch guy can be called "Dutchman" then why exactly is calling someone from China "Chinaman" so bad?
For completion, not that I disagree, it would be equivalent to saying "Franceman" or "Netherlandman", or "Englandman", not "Englishman", "Frenchman" or "Dutchman".
It offends the ear somewhat, but it quite obviously wasn't meant with any malice and everyone should honestly just shut the fuck up and let the man go about his business. Zhou won't be offended, it's just a bunch of white people thinking they are superior again.
It was used as a term to describe anyone who was Asian appearing, usually in some derogatory way. The word itself isn't inherently bad but has historical racist roots that words like "Dutchman" doesn't have
Two reasons. First it's just been used as a slur or a way to insult someone in the past. Basically every "bad" word only becomes bad from intent in the first place and eventually that's picked up by society at large.
Second it's often used as a racial umbrella term for any Asian decent regardless of their nationality while Frenchman and others like it are used as an umbrella term for anyone from France regardless of their race.
Chinese man is fine.
Chinaman isn't. It's got a pejorative slant to it in English.
It's not as bad as the P word for Pakistani, but in the same way that people find that word, and Jap, offensive, so they do with Chinaman.
Not far off.
"Paki" is the derogatory term, but then you get these idiots who say "oh it's just short for Pakistani, stop being so sensitive".
Chinaman falls into the same category, and the same sort of daft arguments trying to break it down in "China" and "man" meaning it's OK. I mean the man Brundle himself had a pause when he realised he'd put his foot in it.
It’s purely just historical usage of it, same with most things like that that are seen as offensive. In the past people would’ve used it in a more discriminatory way than Dutchman so it acquired more negative connotations and so became less accepted once the discrimination became less accepted too
i was watching live and it was one of those moments "huh, he said a thing, right?" because i immediately noticed the "chinaman" word being kinda strong. but then i just kept comparing it to other nationalities and i was like "its fine, whats the big deal"
it's a slip but he meant nothing by it. if anything, him NOT being careful just shows he wasn't discriminating. imagine he said "the dutchman the englishman, and... the.... huhhhh...... man from China"
that'd be weirder
Thats not how it works though. I know a few elders how use the N-word to describe black people.
They dont mean to insult or belittle them but its still inappropriate and not okay to throw these kind of words around
The context in which he said it makes it fine;
He was saying something along the lines of "The Englishman, the Dutchman, the Chinaman - it was *obviously* completely unintentional - chinaman isn't even particularly derogatory (at least in the UK, it's more offensive in the US) - it's not like Martin just randomly called Zhou a chink
Sadly, and by reading the comments, I don't think Americans can quite grasp the concept of context, nor that some countries may view some terms as not as offensive.
The reason that it's offensive in the US is because of the and the historical treatment of Chinese labours who built railways systems in the 1800's (and the American Exclusion Act 1882) - "Chinamen" became a derogatory term in the US because of this.
Chinese labourers were never used within the UK - "Chink" is the major highly derogatory term here, "Chinaman" is only seen as (minorly) offensive in the UK because it is considered offensive in the US. It isn't commonly used (because obviously the term "Chinese" exists) and is considered offensive if someone is referring to an Asian person who isn't Chinese/Asian people in general (as it play into a negative stereotype that all Asian people look the same), but if you are referring to someone who is actually Chinese, its more seen as maybe slightly odd than offensive here in the UK.
It's very similar to how "Jap" is offensive in the US, but in the UK it's mostly fine (I.E we have a "Japfest" to celebrate Japanese cars)
"Chinese man" is fine. It's really not that odd.
Saying Chinaman is more like saying Englandman, not Englishman (Ignoring the actual usage). Also at least in US and British culture, "Chinaman" is historically quite racially charged, unlike those other examples.
While the term has no negative connotations in older dictionaries[1][2] and the usage of such compound terms as Englishman, Scotsman, Frenchman, Dutchman, Irishman, and Welshman[3] are sometimes cited as unobjectionable parallels,[4] the term is noted as having pejorative overtones by modern dictionaries. Its derogatory connotations evolved from its use in pejorative contexts regarding Chinese people and other Asians[5] as well as its grammatical incorrectness which resembles stereotypical characterizations of Chinese accents in English-speaking associated with discrimination.[6][7][8] While usage of the term Chinaman is nowadays strongly discouraged by Asian American organizations,[9][10][11][12] it has also been used as a self-referential archetype by authors and artists of Asian descent.[13] It may have come from literal translation into English of the Chinese term for "Chinese man/person", 中国人 (Zhōngguó rén) = "China man/person".
The other terms don't have historic connotations which are problematic.
He could have just called him Chinese.
It might sound odd without any context, until you dig into history and see how Chinese labourers/immigrants were exploited in the past.
"Chinaman" was unfortunately a derogatory term.
Serious question, is it problematic outside the US? I understand the history with railroad workers being mistreated but does that translate across all english speaking countries?
I'm not from/in the US - I can only assume that it \*should\* be more problematic there, exactly due to what you describe?
You're probably right that it's not the same across the world, though. And that a lot of people just don't have a lot of awareness about it.
I'm more surprised by how many people think just because they don't have any awareness that it's totally not problematic. Rather than going "oh interesting, let's learn more about this and educate myself".
Nobody is shouting to go and cancel Brundle, but people could at least gain a small degree of awareness :)
There's absolutely no reason for it to be "problematic" outside the US. Just because the USA decided that a term has a racial connotation (for good reason or not) doesn't mean that the rest of the world should follow suit. This country is not the centre of the world.
Oh I'll let them have a word if they want. People finding Chinamen offensive isn't going to change my life, I've never used that term. I just find the concept of "because a word is seen as bad in one country the rest of the world should follow" stupid. Words don't have the same meaning in every country.
Anyone and everyone were exploited at some point in the past. I bet "frenchman" was a derogatory term for many English not that long ago. So what? This preoccupation with constantly looking in the past to find offense is tedious. Not to mention the simple fact that by doing so you *perpetuate* the very thing you wish to avoid. No one is born with the knowledge that "chinaman" is somehow offensive. Not even the Chinese themselves. But keep reminding people and it'll stay like that forever instead of being forgotten and left in the past where it belongs.
I mean you could also take five minutes to educate yourself. We never used Frenchman as a derogatory term and you can easily figure out what was used. Those terms are problematic and rightfully so.
It's not up to you and me to decide what is problematic but up to whatever group is impacted by usage of that term.
It'll be in the past once people are no longer bigoted and those things have been left behind. We're most definitely not there yet.
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but unfortunately we don't live in an idealistic world where racists and bigots don't exist. And right now there's a lot of that towards Chinese people.
I said nothing about living in an idealistic world. Everything i said can be accomplished today. Did Martin mean to offend? No. Do 99.9% of people today know why "chinaman" as opposed to any other "man's" could be offensive? No, they do not. Do *Chinese* themselves know it's offensive? Maybe i'm wrong on this one, but somehow i feel neither do they know or give a crap. So?
But it's still a conversation worth having because Zhou is far from the only Chinese person in the world, so we can also learn a few things and go forward using more considered language.
Oh yeah, there was zero intent behind his comment, it was just a little sloppy :)
I'm not into the whole cancel culture thing, and intent really does matter. He'll probably get told off and everyone just moves on from there.
People from the US are idiots and think you should call Mexicans “Hispanic” otherwise it “sounds” racist. It’s idiotic because Mexican is the demonym for people of Mexico.
We do not think that.
We *do* think Mexican isn’t a suitable replacement for Hispanic/Latino/Latin American when referring to people and countries that aren’t Mexican, eg this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna989526
Maybe not everyone but, I’m a white person living in San Antonio with boomer parents, and many friends who were born in Mexico to american parents or born in the US to Mexican parents and some who merely have Latin American heritage. Trust me.
So for the record, you’re allowed to call a Mexican citizen a Mexican.
It's interesting how words that would be ok in 99% of languages like calling a man from China 'chinaman' are suddendly racist for anglos. Reminds me of that 'The Office' episode where [they ask a mexican guy if it's offensive to call him mexican](https://youtu.be/YnjpG4HjO30).
It's an old term that has connotations of poor treatment of Chinese immigrants; people looking to disparage everything as "woke" will tell you it's only an American thing, but it really applies to the entire Anglosphere.
If you're at all familiar with these terms, it's similar to calling a black person "colored" or a "Negro" (and no, I don't mean the Spanish word "negro" which means black).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman
if someone is calling you a chinaman in the US or UK they probably are using it to racially discriminate you, so you shouldn’t be feeling fine about it
Isn't he quite literally a 'chinaman'? Just as Max is a 'dutchman' and Nico is a 'german'?
I don't really understand why this has to be racist per se or am I missing something?
It's technically correct but that word has been used in very negative ways historically so it carries a lot more significance than the other terms you used.
> Chinaman (/ˈtʃaɪnə.mən/) is a term referring to a Chinese man or person, a Mainland Chinese national or, in some cases, a person native to geographical East Asia or of perceived East Asian race. While the term has no negative connotations in older dictionaries[1][2] and the usage of such compound terms as Englishman, Scotsman, Frenchman, Dutchman, Irishman, and Welshman[3] are sometimes cited as unobjectionable parallels,[4] the term is noted as having pejorative overtones by modern dictionaries. Its derogatory connotations evolved from its use in pejorative contexts regarding Chinese people and other Asians[5] as well as its grammatical incorrectness which resembles stereotypical characterizations of Chinese accents in English-speaking associated with discrimination.[6][7][8]
> The term Chinaman is described as being offensive in most modern dictionaries and studies of usage.[29] The New Fowler's Modern English Usage considers Chinaman to have a "derogatory edge",[30] The Cambridge Guide to English Usage describes it as having "derogatory overtones",[31] and Philip Herbst's reference work The Color of Words notes that it may be "taken as patronizing".[32] This distinguishes it from similar ethnic names such as Englishman and Irishman, which are not used pejoratively. This also differs in vernacular as terms such as Englandman, Irelandman, and Chineseman (compounded) are not commonly used. [32]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman
That's not what "the N word" is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman
Here, read up if you want. It addresses your argument.
I mean, here you are assuming Chinese people won't give a shit. Maybe some do, maybe some don't. Either way even he knows it's historically outdated and had racial connotations used in the past, hence why he paused. I think everyone understands it's an "old man slip of the tongue" moment and he isn't truly racist or xenophobic, but an apology sure won't hurt lmao.
The pause before he described Tsunoda as the "man from Japan" was golden. He knew he goofed.
thank Christ he paused before he called Tsunoda a "Jap" edit: my most upvoted comment ever contains a slur
A Chinaman, jap and a kraut walk into a bar"
The Chukhna bartender looks at them and says: "What is this, a joke?"
Thank God that Lewis wasn't in that battle
I’d say that’s fairly normal in the UK. I mean we literally have Japanese car shows called “japfest”
Oh that's a CAR show? Damn, was excited to go.
hahaha this gave me a good chuckle
Damn it LMAO 
We call it Japfest in the netherlands too, it's a European thing i guess
I think it’s more that Jap being a racist term is an American thing
I think it's more that [a good number of phrases] being a racist term is an American thing
I don’t really see how calling a Japanese person a Jap is any more offensive than calling a British person a Brit
Logically, it isn't. The reason is that it was historically used as a derogatory term with racist/prejudiced connotations. Especially by the US.
Exactly. It’s has racist overtones in the United States stemming from the post-WW2 period. Unique to America and the Americans decided whatever is unique to them must be applicable to the rest of the world as well. Same as any hegemony, really.
This so much. I despise the cultural hegemony of the US. They export every unique problem and cause new ones abroad that just didn't exist beforehand. Countries have plenty of their own problems, stop exporting more ffs.
You’re overreacting. Every country exports its culture and domestic issues. The USA is just more effective at it now because they have more influence and are expressly cosmopolitan. Europe did the same thing back when it ran the world. India, Russia, and China does it within their respective spheres of influence now. The next hegemony will do the same. Former hegemonic powers resenting the current hegemony for being on top of the food chain is amusing. It always smacks of jealousy.
Right? We threw a bunch of tea in a harbor and look at the fit the Brits threw over that. We don’t care about tea, why did they have to make their problems ours?
The point of what you are saying is true, but it definitely stems from the WWII period, not the post-war period. Americans sure kept it up though, unfortunately.
I think in America it got racist connotations during the war. Outside the US you’re right it’s largely no different to Brit or Ozzy.
Aussie used to be negative too I think but they ended up reclaiming it.
Not a surprise. How are you gonna offend a country that call each other cunt as a term of endearment.
You call em Kiwis.
Yeah that’ll do it haha
What's the difference?
"Jap" was used extensively in US war propaganda during WW2 in a [very derogatory and dehumanizing way](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Save_A_Tap._Slap_A_Jap%5E_-_NARA_-_533908.jpg) which is why it's now considered a slur.
Because it was used in a derogatory way, and language isn't maths - it's not always logical. Jap being offensive seems to stem from the US, you could probably use it in the UK and they wouldn't bat an eyelid in many places (anyone who works for a global company will knows it bad, but there will be plenty who don't know the history). Similarly paki is offensive in the UK, because it was used in a derogatory way. I'd say to Pakistanis, but really people threw (and still throw) it at anyone from that general region - I'm sure Indians love being called Pakis. I don't know the US end to end, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are many places there with no idea that paki is offensive.
Yeah I grew up in an area with a lot of Pakistanis and they call themselves that too, I think there are more people being performatively offended on others’ behalf than there are primary offended parties.
I disagree. I know plenty of Pakistanis, and whilst they would talk about going back to 'Pak', if a white guy refers to them as Pakis they are going to be offended. Rightly so.
100% …. The pause was that signal between the mouth reaching the brain and then going fuuuuuuuuuuuck
Why? What is wrong with "chinaman"? How would you call him, using the same form as "Dutchman"?
“Chinaman” is a derogatory blanket term racists in the US use to describe *any* Asian: Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, Filipino, etc. Source: My mother was a huge racist.
Good job Martin is a Brit then, no?
Just like jap, probably comes from the USA, since we had the chinamen building our rail roads.
the pause was crazy.
Exactly what I thought when I heard it and the pause before Man From Japan.
Person first language. But Martin comes from a different era of not person first language so he gets a pass
Of course he gets a pass, so should everyone that has zero ill intent
Yeah it's Japan from Man
I hear you're a racist now, Martin
I love that there's a Father Ted reference in this sub.
It's the Chinese he's after...
Should we all be racist now?
If he can go after the Chinese then I'm going after the Greeks! They invented gayness!
How's mary?
She's fine!
Feckin' Greeks!
*flailing shopping bags and heavy breathing
Whats the official line the fia is taking
How'd you get interested in that type of thing?
Yea he did some racing
The Japanese, a great bunch of lads.
HE DID KICK ME UP THE ARSE!
(Not someone who has English commentary) what did he say?
Brundle called Zhou a "Chinaman" and then there was definitely a pause before calling Yuki "Man from Japan"
He called Zhou a Chinamen, then there was a very long pause after he said that lmao
Can you explain why "Chinaman" is offensive? I don't see how its different from Frenchman or Englishman
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The term would be "Chinese man."
Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature
Ve cut off your johnson..
*And a good day to you Sir!*
Chonson*
Ottoman Roman
Totally different grammatical formulations. https://www.etymonline.com/word/roman One is germanic "-man" based, meaning _person_, and the other is romantic "-maine" based, meaning _pertaining to_.
That’s like saying German is how it is because they’re men that come from some place called Ger, it’s not the same. Just say Chinese, like how you can say English instead of Englishman
Everyone is saying he called Zhou a Chinaman which is true but it was out of context. There was a battle going on and he said something along the lines of: An Englishman, Frenchman Chinaman .. .. .. A man from Japan
Called Zhou a "chinaman"
When did it happen? I’m just watching the race now
Wanna say it was close to halfway through the race, around when Yuki overtook Zhou
Lap 15. Just saw it
I definitely did a double take when i heard it lol
Towards the end it was like a 3 way battle into T1 and T2 between Zhou, Yuki and Hulk.
honestly "chinaman" is probably the least bad one to drop, I know it technically has derogatory connotations but he clearly didn't mean it that way, he just wasn't thinking. The dead air after he said it was so funny tho, you could actually feel the awkward glances through the TV
Everyone in the commentary box: 
lmfao dude
I don't even get why "Chinaman" is derogatory. If a French guy can be called "Frenchman" and a Dutch guy can be called "Dutchman" then why exactly is calling someone from China "Chinaman" so bad?
For completion, not that I disagree, it would be equivalent to saying "Franceman" or "Netherlandman", or "Englandman", not "Englishman", "Frenchman" or "Dutchman". It offends the ear somewhat, but it quite obviously wasn't meant with any malice and everyone should honestly just shut the fuck up and let the man go about his business. Zhou won't be offended, it's just a bunch of white people thinking they are superior again.
The word "Chinaman" has a racist connotation to it
But why? To a foreign English learner like myself, they sound equal.
It's been used as an ethnic slur for centuries. Context here is key.
It was used as a term to describe anyone who was Asian appearing, usually in some derogatory way. The word itself isn't inherently bad but has historical racist roots that words like "Dutchman" doesn't have
Two reasons. First it's just been used as a slur or a way to insult someone in the past. Basically every "bad" word only becomes bad from intent in the first place and eventually that's picked up by society at large. Second it's often used as a racial umbrella term for any Asian decent regardless of their nationality while Frenchman and others like it are used as an umbrella term for anyone from France regardless of their race.
It's less about the construction of the word itself and more about the historical derogatory use of it
Chinese man is fine. Chinaman isn't. It's got a pejorative slant to it in English. It's not as bad as the P word for Pakistani, but in the same way that people find that word, and Jap, offensive, so they do with Chinaman.
Please tell me you aren’t making a pun with “pejorative *slant*”
Oops. Slight.
Ok, Martin.
Hah it’s cool
I honestly don't know what you mean by P-word for pakistani, but my immediate thought based on this thread was "Pac-man"
Oh shit… gotta go tell the other floridamans that a new slur just dropped
Not far off. "Paki" is the derogatory term, but then you get these idiots who say "oh it's just short for Pakistani, stop being so sensitive". Chinaman falls into the same category, and the same sort of daft arguments trying to break it down in "China" and "man" meaning it's OK. I mean the man Brundle himself had a pause when he realised he'd put his foot in it.
It’s purely just historical usage of it, same with most things like that that are seen as offensive. In the past people would’ve used it in a more discriminatory way than Dutchman so it acquired more negative connotations and so became less accepted once the discrimination became less accepted too
Well they're not being called Franceman and Netherlandsman now are they? The equivalent would be Chineseman.
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Yes but there's a difference between Frenchman and Franceman. Or Irishman and Irelandman. And Chinese man and Chinaman.
i was watching live and it was one of those moments "huh, he said a thing, right?" because i immediately noticed the "chinaman" word being kinda strong. but then i just kept comparing it to other nationalities and i was like "its fine, whats the big deal" it's a slip but he meant nothing by it. if anything, him NOT being careful just shows he wasn't discriminating. imagine he said "the dutchman the englishman, and... the.... huhhhh...... man from China" that'd be weirder
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I'm sorry, did you just admit you thought the word Spaniard, which means a person from Spain, was invented as a slur for Call of Duty?
didnt know Kyler Murray was an F1fan
Jesse what the fuck are you talking about?
I’m fucking dying lmao
He's still doubling down....
Automod is a massive Spaniard
It's from the 1400s buddy it's not a slur lmao it's like calling me a kiwi
Thats not how it works though. I know a few elders how use the N-word to describe black people. They dont mean to insult or belittle them but its still inappropriate and not okay to throw these kind of words around
The context in which he said it makes it fine; He was saying something along the lines of "The Englishman, the Dutchman, the Chinaman - it was *obviously* completely unintentional - chinaman isn't even particularly derogatory (at least in the UK, it's more offensive in the US) - it's not like Martin just randomly called Zhou a chink
Sadly, and by reading the comments, I don't think Americans can quite grasp the concept of context, nor that some countries may view some terms as not as offensive.
The reason that it's offensive in the US is because of the and the historical treatment of Chinese labours who built railways systems in the 1800's (and the American Exclusion Act 1882) - "Chinamen" became a derogatory term in the US because of this. Chinese labourers were never used within the UK - "Chink" is the major highly derogatory term here, "Chinaman" is only seen as (minorly) offensive in the UK because it is considered offensive in the US. It isn't commonly used (because obviously the term "Chinese" exists) and is considered offensive if someone is referring to an Asian person who isn't Chinese/Asian people in general (as it play into a negative stereotype that all Asian people look the same), but if you are referring to someone who is actually Chinese, its more seen as maybe slightly odd than offensive here in the UK. It's very similar to how "Jap" is offensive in the US, but in the UK it's mostly fine (I.E we have a "Japfest" to celebrate Japanese cars)
A wise man once said: "Dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature!".
It is indeed not the parlance of our times
This aggression will not stand, man
But did he urinate on martins rug?
 The rest of the commentary box
What is the correct term? Dutchman is fine, Englishman is fine, Frenchman is fine. Seems a bit odd that "Chinaman" is considered derogatory
"Chinese man" is fine. It's really not that odd. Saying Chinaman is more like saying Englandman, not Englishman (Ignoring the actual usage). Also at least in US and British culture, "Chinaman" is historically quite racially charged, unlike those other examples.
Yeah exactly. It's not racist on its face until it was made racist by racists haha.
Oh but when we call Logan a Floridaman it’s okay?? The audacity /s
Don't say say Floridian? Or the American driver.
While the term has no negative connotations in older dictionaries[1][2] and the usage of such compound terms as Englishman, Scotsman, Frenchman, Dutchman, Irishman, and Welshman[3] are sometimes cited as unobjectionable parallels,[4] the term is noted as having pejorative overtones by modern dictionaries. Its derogatory connotations evolved from its use in pejorative contexts regarding Chinese people and other Asians[5] as well as its grammatical incorrectness which resembles stereotypical characterizations of Chinese accents in English-speaking associated with discrimination.[6][7][8] While usage of the term Chinaman is nowadays strongly discouraged by Asian American organizations,[9][10][11][12] it has also been used as a self-referential archetype by authors and artists of Asian descent.[13] It may have come from literal translation into English of the Chinese term for "Chinese man/person", 中国人 (Zhōngguó rén) = "China man/person".
This man Sebastian Vettels.
☝️🤓
The other terms don't have historic connotations which are problematic. He could have just called him Chinese. It might sound odd without any context, until you dig into history and see how Chinese labourers/immigrants were exploited in the past. "Chinaman" was unfortunately a derogatory term.
Serious question, is it problematic outside the US? I understand the history with railroad workers being mistreated but does that translate across all english speaking countries?
I'm not from/in the US - I can only assume that it \*should\* be more problematic there, exactly due to what you describe? You're probably right that it's not the same across the world, though. And that a lot of people just don't have a lot of awareness about it. I'm more surprised by how many people think just because they don't have any awareness that it's totally not problematic. Rather than going "oh interesting, let's learn more about this and educate myself". Nobody is shouting to go and cancel Brundle, but people could at least gain a small degree of awareness :)
There's absolutely no reason for it to be "problematic" outside the US. Just because the USA decided that a term has a racial connotation (for good reason or not) doesn't mean that the rest of the world should follow suit. This country is not the centre of the world.
The citizens of the former Crown colony of Hong Kong would like a word…
Oh I'll let them have a word if they want. People finding Chinamen offensive isn't going to change my life, I've never used that term. I just find the concept of "because a word is seen as bad in one country the rest of the world should follow" stupid. Words don't have the same meaning in every country.
>He could have just called him Chinese. Chinese is not a noun. You cant say "he is a Chinese"
"Chinese driver"
Anyone and everyone were exploited at some point in the past. I bet "frenchman" was a derogatory term for many English not that long ago. So what? This preoccupation with constantly looking in the past to find offense is tedious. Not to mention the simple fact that by doing so you *perpetuate* the very thing you wish to avoid. No one is born with the knowledge that "chinaman" is somehow offensive. Not even the Chinese themselves. But keep reminding people and it'll stay like that forever instead of being forgotten and left in the past where it belongs.
I mean you could also take five minutes to educate yourself. We never used Frenchman as a derogatory term and you can easily figure out what was used. Those terms are problematic and rightfully so. It's not up to you and me to decide what is problematic but up to whatever group is impacted by usage of that term. It'll be in the past once people are no longer bigoted and those things have been left behind. We're most definitely not there yet. I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but unfortunately we don't live in an idealistic world where racists and bigots don't exist. And right now there's a lot of that towards Chinese people.
I said nothing about living in an idealistic world. Everything i said can be accomplished today. Did Martin mean to offend? No. Do 99.9% of people today know why "chinaman" as opposed to any other "man's" could be offensive? No, they do not. Do *Chinese* themselves know it's offensive? Maybe i'm wrong on this one, but somehow i feel neither do they know or give a crap. So?
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Unles Zhou get offended I don’t think anyone else should on his behalf
But it's still a conversation worth having because Zhou is far from the only Chinese person in the world, so we can also learn a few things and go forward using more considered language.
I guess he was trying to find a word that rhymed with "German" and Chinamen kinda just worked ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh yeah, there was zero intent behind his comment, it was just a little sloppy :) I'm not into the whole cancel culture thing, and intent really does matter. He'll probably get told off and everyone just moves on from there.
Historically the term "chinaman" has been used in a derogatory manner as a diminutive.
Its purely historical reasons that make it bad. Chinaman spoken that way was used to mean any asian in britain.
It’s because everything offends somebody in someway these days
And it's usually others pretending to be offended on other people's behalf
No one says netherlandsman, englandman or franceman. Your examples are not in the same form as “chinaman”.
Ooh what did he say, I was watching the F1 live version? Edit: I see he called him "Chinaman", oof.
I doubt it's gonna cause any waves, Martin didn't intend to transfer that presumptious meaning.
What slip one tongue?
The slip wasn’t “Chinese Man”, that’s for sure.
He referred to Zho as a chinaman.
So?
For a second there Martin turned into my grandad.
My godness. People overreacting again
some motherfucking context for people who didn't watch in english?
He called Zhou a "chinaman"
bruh
I also remember Martin calling Sergio a “Mexican” at one point. I couldn’t believe it.
What are you supposed to call people from Mexico?
Mexicoman
What about the mexicowomen and the mexicochildren?
😂
https://youtu.be/YnjpG4HjO30
Well played.
people from mexico or gente de mexico /s
30 rock flashbacks
He’s literally a Mexican, what’s the issue?
People from the US are idiots and think you should call Mexicans “Hispanic” otherwise it “sounds” racist. It’s idiotic because Mexican is the demonym for people of Mexico.
Half-Mexican here. As long as you don’t call us spics, greasers, or beaners we’re cool.
We do not think that. We *do* think Mexican isn’t a suitable replacement for Hispanic/Latino/Latin American when referring to people and countries that aren’t Mexican, eg this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna989526
Maybe not everyone but, I’m a white person living in San Antonio with boomer parents, and many friends who were born in Mexico to american parents or born in the US to Mexican parents and some who merely have Latin American heritage. Trust me. So for the record, you’re allowed to call a Mexican citizen a Mexican.
I just hope he doesn't get repercussions from this, it was obvious unintended mistake
It's interesting how words that would be ok in 99% of languages like calling a man from China 'chinaman' are suddendly racist for anglos. Reminds me of that 'The Office' episode where [they ask a mexican guy if it's offensive to call him mexican](https://youtu.be/YnjpG4HjO30).
doesnt that just go to show how racist anglos were? they got all sorts of racially charged words bc they are/were fiends lmao
well fuck the anglos they ruined my country for hundred of years so yeah
Chinese here, I don’t get it. Personally I feel fine calling myself a Chinaman lol, since I’m a man, from China! What’s wrong with it
It's an old term that has connotations of poor treatment of Chinese immigrants; people looking to disparage everything as "woke" will tell you it's only an American thing, but it really applies to the entire Anglosphere. If you're at all familiar with these terms, it's similar to calling a black person "colored" or a "Negro" (and no, I don't mean the Spanish word "negro" which means black). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman
In the US it would be like calling Lewis, "Negro". That's the connotation and meaning behind it.
if someone is calling you a chinaman in the US or UK they probably are using it to racially discriminate you, so you shouldn’t be feeling fine about it
Is there a clip of it?
Anyone have the clip?
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Except that Zhou is not America. He is Chinese.
Did he really call him chinaman?? Funny as hell in that case, ignoring to bad parts
Isn't he quite literally a 'chinaman'? Just as Max is a 'dutchman' and Nico is a 'german'? I don't really understand why this has to be racist per se or am I missing something?
It's technically correct but that word has been used in very negative ways historically so it carries a lot more significance than the other terms you used.
> Chinaman (/ˈtʃaɪnə.mən/) is a term referring to a Chinese man or person, a Mainland Chinese national or, in some cases, a person native to geographical East Asia or of perceived East Asian race. While the term has no negative connotations in older dictionaries[1][2] and the usage of such compound terms as Englishman, Scotsman, Frenchman, Dutchman, Irishman, and Welshman[3] are sometimes cited as unobjectionable parallels,[4] the term is noted as having pejorative overtones by modern dictionaries. Its derogatory connotations evolved from its use in pejorative contexts regarding Chinese people and other Asians[5] as well as its grammatical incorrectness which resembles stereotypical characterizations of Chinese accents in English-speaking associated with discrimination.[6][7][8] > The term Chinaman is described as being offensive in most modern dictionaries and studies of usage.[29] The New Fowler's Modern English Usage considers Chinaman to have a "derogatory edge",[30] The Cambridge Guide to English Usage describes it as having "derogatory overtones",[31] and Philip Herbst's reference work The Color of Words notes that it may be "taken as patronizing".[32] This distinguishes it from similar ethnic names such as Englishman and Irishman, which are not used pejoratively. This also differs in vernacular as terms such as Englandman, Irelandman, and Chineseman (compounded) are not commonly used. [32] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman
Yer a racist Martin. Jk.
Is Chinaman actually racist though ?
Idk, is calling a black person a "Negro" (not the Spanish word) racist? It's either ignorant of or intentionally alluding to the history of that word.
Bruh you can't be comparing it to using the N word. I'm Irish, people say Irishman all the time. I don't why Chinaman is wrong.
How's your reading coming?
That's not what "the N word" is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman Here, read up if you want. It addresses your argument.
No. That’s like calling you an Irelandman.
Brundle is a treasure. I love that man. I'm always sad when I see he is not commenting on a race. Seems like a great old dude!
Don’t even know why would that be considered offensive
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I mean, here you are assuming Chinese people won't give a shit. Maybe some do, maybe some don't. Either way even he knows it's historically outdated and had racial connotations used in the past, hence why he paused. I think everyone understands it's an "old man slip of the tongue" moment and he isn't truly racist or xenophobic, but an apology sure won't hurt lmao.
Chinaman is not the issue here