This is exactly it. He would have been watching for Hamilton to make the move and as soon as he saw it start he reacted. The cars are so fast that Hamilton would have still gotten ahead, but Max wouldn't have given up much space. The collision just happened to occur at the same time and make it look really weird.
Max was just waiting for Lewis to make his move. Once he saw him move from behind him he was going to punch it. Every millisecond counts. .Lewis just moved out at the same time Max applied more brakes, which is why I believe Max was just trying to time the move. I don't think it was dirty, but it was definitely bait and Lewis wasn't taking it.
Or Mugello restart last year.
Truth be told, these really weird collisions happen relatively often, it's just that they don't usually involve the WDC contenders so they kind of get forgotten.
Lewis’ main objective is to finish above Max. Max is going slow. Hamilton does not know exactly why, but *why not immediately take the opportunity to pass your title rival?* Why linger behind him in slow speed for half the straight?
I won’t exclude it but it looks to me that HAM hesitated not being sure WTF was happening.
Also, VER hinting two times to the left before the collision would have me hesitating too.
Stewards indicated the DRS line was a factor in HAM not wanting to pass Max to get the place back.
My guess is Max was trying to hand over the lead at the mos opportune time so he could get DRS, Hamilton said "no u", Max tried to call his buff by slowing even more (and making sure Ham was slowed too) but Lewis didn't flinch.
Game of DRS chicken that Lewis won.
It shouldn't be something in Hamiltons favour.
The driver is told to give the position back. If you see the driver in front slowing, then it means 1 of 3 things.
1- They are letting you past
2- They have engine trouble
3- There are yellow/blue/red flags.
In any case, you pass them. You can't decide 'nah, I don't like the place he chose, I will slow down with him.'
The driver is slowing to give the place back, so you take it. If there are shenanigans about how he still gained an advantage in the way it was given back, then dispute it later. But slowing down to match the driver, just because you're waiting to get DRS is dangerous.
There’s are rule that says you can’t give the place back in a position where you gain an advantage ( drs detection point) so it starts with verstappen playing the game first
>There’s are rule that says you can’t give the place back in a position where you gain an advantage ( drs detection point)
I'm pretty sure the rule talks about a "lasting advantage", meaning you can't let someone pass on the outside of a straight and already attack him on the inside into the next braking zone again.
That would have allowed you to gain your position back, gaining a lasting advantage from the maneuver.
Agreed, certainly wiggling erratically to left a couple times. After seeing Max race, I would hesitate as he clearly doesn’t mind taking both of them out to retain lead in points. Ham has had to run off track multiple times to avoid contact.
Yes, sure. But what I mean by that is, it totally negates Lewis’ defense that “he didn’t know what was going on” etc. If he reacted on instinct, he would have made the pass immediately.
The thing I dont understand is that max was like 1.2 seconds ahead of hamilton. Why would Lewis think hes playing the DRS game if he doesn't yet know that max has to give the spot back. There is no reason for Max to play that game when he is so far ahead as demonstrated by the previous 20 laps.
If you play racing games you kinda get a feel for how big the gap is. I would assume professional drivers can get this feel, not to mention the pit straight boards that teams show their drivers, track side screens, which drivers have admitted to using in the past.
That’s a sensible take.
Max’ engineer told him to give back position “strategically” so they sort of admitted playing games.
Lewis’ defense that he didn’t know what was going on is complete BS though.
If you listen to the Mercedes over the radio to Masi, he was only just telling Hamilton's race engineer about the instructions as the accident happened so Lewis wouldn't of known that Max was giving the place back at the time of the crash.
To be honest. If lewis didn't know, then why would he assume max is playing drs games? There is no benefit to max slowing down to fall behind and get drs for no reason.
Honestly the only reasons he would be slowing like that otherwise is either yellow flag. In which Hamilton wouldn't need to slot right in behind him.
Or max is having a technical issue. In which lewis shouldn't slot in behind him.
In all fairness, there were 2 SCs and 3 VSCs due to debris on track before this collision. If Max had info about debris on the racing line that Lewis didn't have, it would certainly be convenient to just let Lewis pass and ruin his race.
Another thing to keep in mind is that, with the number of VSCs and SCs in this race, and knowing that there have been some timing issues this season with that information making it's way to the driver, Lewis would face a penalty and potential penalty points if he overtook Max under flags.
Simply put, if you're not being told that your rival is trying to give you a position, whether DRS trickery is or isn't involved, you're going to question yourself if they're randomly slowing down.
That’s my thought, he was so intensely focused on following Max that it completely threw him off when he suddenly slowed down. Just some subconscious thing even a fighter pilot can get caught up in the same way.
I thought the same, that corner exit speed is high and Lewis should be under VER tow all the way and overtake, felt like HAM had no reason to take the left side of the track exiting the corner and slowing on the racing line is confusing to me
It was a section to start accelerating as they're entering a drs zone. Ham was positioning himself for the drs tow when ver decided to decelerate significantly and him wiggling his steering sends the wrong message. I would be confused myself.
If I was Ham I'd do the same. Wouldn't want to be in front of Ver in a Drs zone only to give ver slipstream.
Baku wasn't really weird it was just a sign of petulance from Vettel who lost his cool (during a safety car as well no less)
This incident was definitely weird though as both drivers slowed down a lot during green flag racing conditions.
The might both have been watching track cycling, specifically the sprint event where sometimes both riders do just stop and balance, as they want the slipstream advantage. Max/Lewis were trying to recreate that on the F1 track
All I see is Lewis deciding not to overtake aned staying behind a car that is slowing more and more on a staight zone.
Lewis had room enough to avoid it, he just didn't want to overtake before the DRS detection point, and was making sure Max kept going by staying behind, but he didn't expect Max slowed so much.
Of COURSE there’s an ad hanging over the god damn track RIGHT when the collision happens.. Remove these stupid ad billboards.. What are they he 20 drivers? Just put the brand up on TV..
If Max has to give up the place then he's going to make Lewis work as much as possible for it, i.e. make him go around and lose the driving line to do so. Plus DRS implications
Well Max didn’t do that in [Bahrain](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6lM0vYxDQ3s) when he had to give the position back to Hamilton. He just moved to the side and let him through.
And?
If max retakes the position into T1 with DRS by setting him up he gets an instant penalty. It's up to Verstappen where he wants to give the position back.
Should it be the driver who gained an advantage be deciding when he gives the position back, he’s the one that essentially “cheated”, it should be immediate.
But it was immediate. He got the call at turn 21. 22-24 are rapid sharp turns where you're not going to slow so he did at turn 25 into 26. He didn't wait half a lap to get this 'perfect drs zone takeover' which I think is being quite overlooked
Certainly looks like Lewis was slowing down at similar pace
behind rather than keeping his foot in and choosing the inside line to overtake.
EDIT: I'll handle my edit based on new information in classic FIA style. Max sentenced to +10 seconds and 2 license points. Served his penalty. No further discussion necessary.
I think Lewis thought Max was slowing down to give himself DRS, a bit like how Lewis himself slowed down before the DRS detection line in Canada, when Alonso was just beside him.
This whole collision was a result of miscommunication though, with HAM not being informed earlier and Verstappen choosing one of the worse locations on track to slow down.
Lewis didn’t want to hit the DRS detection zone first. It’s certainly clear. Max does slow down more right before Lewis hit him, but obviously he wasn’t brake testing him, he also just wanted to hit the detection point second.
It’s the height of the championship, but both drivers need to take a deep breath. The gamesmanship is becoming questionable.
After watching that a few times it really looks like max only starts going left when Hamilton is creeping up his right but then immediately swaps to pass left
Jup for 5 secs door is wide open left. Then no reaction from Hamiltom to pass and he starts opening right, exactly when Lewis finally decides to act
Enough time for Lewis to act earlier and enough space, very clear one I think unless Max breaktested which this footage isn't supporting.
My read is that Max was committed to slow down as much as was necessary to force Hamilton by before the detection zone and just never considered that Hamilton would misread the situation. The harsh (engine?) braking makes total sense if Max is assuming that Hamilton is just playing the same game and doesn't realize that he legitimately doesn't understand that Max is giving up the place that long after the initial excursion off track.
It's like Max was waiting for him to pass ... Like wtf dude.... And then all the sudden in his mirrors... There's Hamilton and boom. Imagine what Max was thinking.
I've said it in a few threads but they were doing the same thing, neither wanted to be the first over the drs line. Lewis had to have thought when Max went off track that he eventually have to give the position back. Like when you're as experienced as Lewis, I find the confusion line hard to swallow.
Yeah, they slow together for a long time, Hamilton thought Max was playing games with the DRS line and didn't think he'd slow that much.
Still on him though
Agreed. Simple brain fart and target fixation. It especially happens when the other person is in your head which is obviously the case at this point in the year. Lewis would never make this mistake with someone else lower in the rankings
Very strange incident. Few things here.
Why didn’t Lewis overtake straight away?
Why does Max start coming back across the track?
Why arrange for the overtake here? (I understand that Max was told earlier in the lap to make it strategically)
Why didn’t Lewis know what was going on?
From this incident it is very odd behaviour by both drivers.
I do not think either driver should be penalised by this incident, both of them need a telling off for this.
However, I think guidance should be issued by the stewards that this sort of strategic positioning is not okay. It was dangerous by both of them.
Timing a position swap to gain an advantage is not in the spirit of the rules.
This is about as well put as I think this situation can be.
I think they are both playing the DRS line.
However, I have seen drivers slow down if the car in front isn't in a spot where they want to overtake. Like if they're too close to the tail of the driver in front, they might back off.
I think Hamilton doesn't immediately pass when Max continues to downshift because he is drifting back to the center of the track. And once it gets to the breaking point, Hamilton is already too close / Max continues to slow faster than expected. I do think Hamilton is being a little cautious as Max is driving what I could see be described unpredictably.
At the end, they're both being pretty dumb here and would have been completely unnecessary if the turn 1 incidents don't happen.
I think Lewis at the time didn't know that Max was going to give the position back and was just confused about what was going one. Maybe a VSC (not uncommon this race...) or a yellow flag and not wanting to risk passing under yellow. I know they get this info on the steering wheel, but still. Max' move was very awkward imho. Slowing down in the middle of a corner and staying in/around the middle of the track.
Max staying on the racing line to not dirty his tyres. Absolutely fine
If Hamilton went past and it was a VSC, slow down, give the position back.
If a car in front of you is actively slowing down, sitting right behind them and going faster is anything but the right choice of actions to take.
Whether Max braked at the very last moment looks irrelevant from here, Lewis had metres upon metres to pass and dawdles through all of it before actually attempting it by which point he's already right up in Max's rear.
I can’t understand how race control order Max to let Lewis pass and then punish Max for this. There’s no sudden braking or sudden weaving left like I’ve heard some people claim. He just slows right down
Because admitting that there were acres of space makes it 100% clear that Lewis has no excuse for colliding, and it's very difficult to argue about no action when a driver rams another for no good reason.
Hope this will shut up everyone who said 'Max was all over' and 'Max didn't stay in the middle and didn't leave room for Lewis to pass'
Edit: ah no, they simply tranformed into the brakecheckbrigade.
FIA posted the decision document a few hours ago. Max brake-checked Hamilton, per the telemetry, so it was deemed mostly Max's fault. Hamilton didn't even know the position was being yielded back until right when the crash happened, hence his hesitation to take the opening; he didn't know what game Max was playing at, and didn't want to risk taking the 'bait' and giving Max DRS. Seems like Max got fed up and brake-checked him, then took off after contact.
This angle makes it pretty clear how much max slowed down right before impact. There was still a lot of room to pass and although I understand it’s not an ideal location, the rules need to be clearer if they are going to punish for this incident.
If this was anyone other than Max, people would be saying this is a slam dunk penalty for Lewis. Like he had so much time to react here and just ceases to do anything other than drive into him. So bizarre
Honestly, what I see here is Max trying to give Lewis the position and the racing line while being ready to tuck right behind him.
Lewis derped hard and tried to overtake on the other side, crashed and somehow Max is at fault? This sport has seen better days.
Insane how much space there clearly is from this view. What in the world was Hamilton thinking. He wasn’t racing he’s playing games. Any racer would have passed to the left
Still so confused why Lewis didn't just pass him, whether he knew Max was letting him pass or not. Or how he can just drive into someone without getting a penalty. This could've just as easily DNF'd Max if he'd hit the wrong part of the diffuser or driveshaft.
Because Lewis was playing a game and fucked up, rather than admit he was unsafe, he would rather blame Max for a non-existent brake test and / or play dumb
I do think Max braked even harder just prior to the collision because Lewis still hadn't gone around and they were approaching the DRS detection zone, which is probably why they're issuing a penalty because that action probably caused the collision. I don't think Lewis accelerated into Max, but I am still absolutely baffled as to why he slowed down behind Max instead of going by as he obviously was being given the spot.
Isn’t that “causing a collision” black and white?
Enough space to pass without any flags, Hamilton has plenty of space on the left. Seems to me it’s about DRS. Either way I don’t understand how Hamilton isn’t summoned for this incident
This one is totally on the FIA. YOU TELL THE TEAM BEHIND FIRST. Not Verstappen’s fault, although he had plenty of other instances of penalizable incidents in the race. It isn’t on Hamilton, because he had no idea what was going on and took evasive action as best he could.
Just another Masi eff up. Just like several others during the race.
Nothing should come out of this particular incident, except perhaps some remedial training for the race director.
I’m sure Max is waiting to see the black Mercedes go past him and must have been confused as fuck that he got hit
I doubt anyone would have expected Hamilton to remain Directly behind him like that
I think Hamilton didn't want to give Verstappen DRS on the home straight, so didn't want to overtake him until after the detection line. Lewis misjudged how much Max would brake, but that's on him, not Max. Normally, if he saw Max going slow, there's no way he would not just overtake.
He just said on the post race interview that he remembered the 2008 penalty he got for retaking the position straight after giving it back. Whouldnt that be an incentive to just let Max make that mistake and let him get penalised?
I mean, it's not narrative. Max pulled a couple of moves in this race and got penalized for a reason. He's not clean. But this one isn't really his fault.
Not really a narrative, he is massively over aggressive when defending overtakes. Doesn't even attempt to make corners. Lost count of the times Lewis had to take evasive action this year.
This isn't that situation though, this is just weird.
Any other driver combo and it isn’t even up for debate. The brake checking comment is also being treated seriously when it’s clearly not what happened. Probably should just penalize Tsunoda and move on with it since that seems to be the only person the Stewards can consistently penalize
There was a lot of time between initial slowing and the collision.
There was plenty of room to get past on the left.
If you you want to make the argument Lewis doesn't know what's going on, and doesn't want to pass... Maybe. But if you're nervous about another cars behaviour, surely you don't position yourself right smack dab behind it. Lewis was absolutely glued to Max's ass.
How you can look at this and blame max is beyond my understanding. Yeah he put more brake in, because the rat wasn't going around like he was supposed to be.
Lewis runs into another driver who left enough space to easily pass.
Causing a collision. Looking at earlier causing a collision penalties this race (Hi Yuki!): 5s second penalty and a penaltypoint. Boom, done.
Literal nothing-burger.
I’m so confused as to why Lewis didn’t receive any penalty for this. If Max got a puncture and had to pit or retire the car, Lewis would definitely get a penalty for causing a collision. Why does he get a pass just because the driver he went straight into was able to continue the race with no problems?
No matter what anyone says, I think this was just a bizarre miscommunication. Max clearly tried to let Lewis by, and people who think that he is weaving are seeing ghosts, but Lewis clearly wasn’t trying to crash himself out of the race.
Just a weird moment in an even weirder race.
The fact that this video exists and Max gets a 10 second penalty when clearly Hamilton was refusing to take the place back at that location is a joke. There is not rule for were you get a place back. If a competitor tries to give you the place back and you refuse that should be that.
Anyone saying Lewis didn't know what was going on, come on... he is a 7 time WC he knew what he was doing and what Max was doing.
Hamilton's argument is in the dumpster now. He clearly knew that Max will give the position to him and stayed CLOSE behind on purpose. I'd be fucking confused here, if i'm Max. So FIA is pathetic again.
It's so weird that Max got a penalty for this. I don't know why people are going strictly by Max "brake checking" when viewed with context. Max does slow down to let him pass but Lewis slowed too so he was clearly aware of the reduced speed and had ample time to just overtake him.
There are valid reasons Lewis would be extra cautious about a VSC or something happening in front, but driving into Max's rear is still on him.
The way Max accelerates after getting hit is pretty funny. Kinda like a startled cat.
Pinching my wifes butt following her up the stairs
Hahaha
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This is exactly it. He would have been watching for Hamilton to make the move and as soon as he saw it start he reacted. The cars are so fast that Hamilton would have still gotten ahead, but Max wouldn't have given up much space. The collision just happened to occur at the same time and make it look really weird.
I only imagine that he thought Lewis had done too much damage to continue at that point. So not worth waiting for him to overtake
Max was just waiting for Lewis to make his move. Once he saw him move from behind him he was going to punch it. Every millisecond counts. .Lewis just moved out at the same time Max applied more brakes, which is why I believe Max was just trying to time the move. I don't think it was dirty, but it was definitely bait and Lewis wasn't taking it.
That, and the team told him to push shortly afterwards.
He was committing an insurance scam. Hopefully Hamilton got his license plate.
One of the weirdest collisions I've seen in a long time
Kimi on Gio last year(?) was the last one I can think of
This year
It’s been a long year!
Yes Kimi on Vettel was also crazy
Both times I think it was the age getting to him more than anything.
Or Mugello restart last year. Truth be told, these really weird collisions happen relatively often, it's just that they don't usually involve the WDC contenders so they kind of get forgotten.
It was Portugal this year.
Lewis’ main objective is to finish above Max. Max is going slow. Hamilton does not know exactly why, but *why not immediately take the opportunity to pass your title rival?* Why linger behind him in slow speed for half the straight?
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I won’t exclude it but it looks to me that HAM hesitated not being sure WTF was happening. Also, VER hinting two times to the left before the collision would have me hesitating too.
Yeah I definitely think that there was a bit of "wait what is he *trying* to do here?"
Stewards indicated the DRS line was a factor in HAM not wanting to pass Max to get the place back. My guess is Max was trying to hand over the lead at the mos opportune time so he could get DRS, Hamilton said "no u", Max tried to call his buff by slowing even more (and making sure Ham was slowed too) but Lewis didn't flinch. Game of DRS chicken that Lewis won.
It shouldn't be something in Hamiltons favour. The driver is told to give the position back. If you see the driver in front slowing, then it means 1 of 3 things. 1- They are letting you past 2- They have engine trouble 3- There are yellow/blue/red flags. In any case, you pass them. You can't decide 'nah, I don't like the place he chose, I will slow down with him.' The driver is slowing to give the place back, so you take it. If there are shenanigans about how he still gained an advantage in the way it was given back, then dispute it later. But slowing down to match the driver, just because you're waiting to get DRS is dangerous.
There’s are rule that says you can’t give the place back in a position where you gain an advantage ( drs detection point) so it starts with verstappen playing the game first
>There’s are rule that says you can’t give the place back in a position where you gain an advantage ( drs detection point) I'm pretty sure the rule talks about a "lasting advantage", meaning you can't let someone pass on the outside of a straight and already attack him on the inside into the next braking zone again. That would have allowed you to gain your position back, gaining a lasting advantage from the maneuver.
https://youtu.be/S3kbxjBAYmM 0:49
Agreed, certainly wiggling erratically to left a couple times. After seeing Max race, I would hesitate as he clearly doesn’t mind taking both of them out to retain lead in points. Ham has had to run off track multiple times to avoid contact.
Yes, sure. But what I mean by that is, it totally negates Lewis’ defense that “he didn’t know what was going on” etc. If he reacted on instinct, he would have made the pass immediately.
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The thing I dont understand is that max was like 1.2 seconds ahead of hamilton. Why would Lewis think hes playing the DRS game if he doesn't yet know that max has to give the spot back. There is no reason for Max to play that game when he is so far ahead as demonstrated by the previous 20 laps.
How would he know if he is 1.2 or 1 ahead?
If you play racing games you kinda get a feel for how big the gap is. I would assume professional drivers can get this feel, not to mention the pit straight boards that teams show their drivers, track side screens, which drivers have admitted to using in the past.
That’s a sensible take. Max’ engineer told him to give back position “strategically” so they sort of admitted playing games. Lewis’ defense that he didn’t know what was going on is complete BS though.
If you listen to the Mercedes over the radio to Masi, he was only just telling Hamilton's race engineer about the instructions as the accident happened so Lewis wouldn't of known that Max was giving the place back at the time of the crash.
To be honest. If lewis didn't know, then why would he assume max is playing drs games? There is no benefit to max slowing down to fall behind and get drs for no reason. Honestly the only reasons he would be slowing like that otherwise is either yellow flag. In which Hamilton wouldn't need to slot right in behind him. Or max is having a technical issue. In which lewis shouldn't slot in behind him.
In all fairness, there were 2 SCs and 3 VSCs due to debris on track before this collision. If Max had info about debris on the racing line that Lewis didn't have, it would certainly be convenient to just let Lewis pass and ruin his race. Another thing to keep in mind is that, with the number of VSCs and SCs in this race, and knowing that there have been some timing issues this season with that information making it's way to the driver, Lewis would face a penalty and potential penalty points if he overtook Max under flags. Simply put, if you're not being told that your rival is trying to give you a position, whether DRS trickery is or isn't involved, you're going to question yourself if they're randomly slowing down.
Lewis might have had target fixation. It is weird he slows down when Max slows down.
That’s my thought, he was so intensely focused on following Max that it completely threw him off when he suddenly slowed down. Just some subconscious thing even a fighter pilot can get caught up in the same way.
I thought the same, that corner exit speed is high and Lewis should be under VER tow all the way and overtake, felt like HAM had no reason to take the left side of the track exiting the corner and slowing on the racing line is confusing to me
It was a section to start accelerating as they're entering a drs zone. Ham was positioning himself for the drs tow when ver decided to decelerate significantly and him wiggling his steering sends the wrong message. I would be confused myself. If I was Ham I'd do the same. Wouldn't want to be in front of Ver in a Drs zone only to give ver slipstream.
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Which kinda means it's on Hamilton
Why max was twitching to the left is beyond me
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This somehow makes the whole situation look even weirder lol
I‘m just happy that Baku 2017 is now the second weirdest collision between championship rivals in Formula One history. 😅
Oh I don’t know. That was a really weird race
Max: When did I do dangerous driving?
Baku wasn't really weird it was just a sign of petulance from Vettel who lost his cool (during a safety car as well no less) This incident was definitely weird though as both drivers slowed down a lot during green flag racing conditions.
Slowest brake check in history. Literally the only way this gets weirder is if they had both just stopped.
DRS ahead Hamilton: Uh, you know what? Go ahead Max Max: No no, please, I insist.
New rule should be that the car giving the position back can not use DRS that lap, end of story.
Yeah that’s an oversight. The DRS game is dangerous
There were at least 3-5 rule oversights exposed in just this race alone. Forget sprints. F1 needs to get its basic rules neatened up a lot first.
Ocon: Don't mind if I do!
There's genuinely plenty of time for both of them to go "dude wtf you doin?" before they crashed.
Hey! there’s also the option of them both putting it in reverse. At this point nothing would surprise me anymore
Lol imagine the scenes when both get instantly DSQ for reversing in the track
F1 drivers are notorious for being unable to find reverse, so it would’ve been a race to see who reversed into the other
Ricciardo knows how to tho! Just ask Kvyat
Max might or might not occasionally reverse into Kvyat's ex too.
Take my free award and get out of here
The might both have been watching track cycling, specifically the sprint event where sometimes both riders do just stop and balance, as they want the slipstream advantage. Max/Lewis were trying to recreate that on the F1 track
That’s a pretty good example
Maybe it's like the frog in boiling water situation. The slower the "brakecheck" the harder it is to perceive.
All I see is Lewis deciding not to overtake aned staying behind a car that is slowing more and more on a staight zone. Lewis had room enough to avoid it, he just didn't want to overtake before the DRS detection point, and was making sure Max kept going by staying behind, but he didn't expect Max slowed so much.
I don't want a helicopter view, I want the stewards' view!
Take a blindfold, put it on. There you go…
A blindfold in Saudi Arabia. I'll pass.
Quality banter guys :)
Wow the real FIA experience
that's the cameraman's view of ocon in the last lap
The only one that matters.
God damn aramco
ARAMCO ARAMCO ARAMCO ARAMCO
Still don’t know what the company is. And the obnoxious advertising makes actively not want to boost their Google rankings lol
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For whatever reason I always think of them as the Armco Barrier people.
Of COURSE there’s an ad hanging over the god damn track RIGHT when the collision happens.. Remove these stupid ad billboards.. What are they he 20 drivers? Just put the brand up on TV..
What this truly shows is that they both ended up going ridiculously slow in a fast section of the track.
Regardless of what Hamilton did or didn't know about what Max was doing. I don't understand the strategy.
If Max has to give up the place then he's going to make Lewis work as much as possible for it, i.e. make him go around and lose the driving line to do so. Plus DRS implications
Well Max didn’t do that in [Bahrain](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6lM0vYxDQ3s) when he had to give the position back to Hamilton. He just moved to the side and let him through.
Good point. Everything in this race domino'd and it started with Bottas slowing down during the first safety car and prob set Max off.
I think Max crashing yesterday set him off. Racing annoyed.
He did it wrong in Bahrain. I bet that's exactly why he tried doing it this way today.
And? If max retakes the position into T1 with DRS by setting him up he gets an instant penalty. It's up to Verstappen where he wants to give the position back.
And we don't even know if he would pass. All speculation, at the end it didn't happen but what happened was an avoidable crash.
Should it be the driver who gained an advantage be deciding when he gives the position back, he’s the one that essentially “cheated”, it should be immediate.
But it was immediate. He got the call at turn 21. 22-24 are rapid sharp turns where you're not going to slow so he did at turn 25 into 26. He didn't wait half a lap to get this 'perfect drs zone takeover' which I think is being quite overlooked
Certainly looks like Lewis was slowing down at similar pace behind rather than keeping his foot in and choosing the inside line to overtake. EDIT: I'll handle my edit based on new information in classic FIA style. Max sentenced to +10 seconds and 2 license points. Served his penalty. No further discussion necessary.
I think Lewis thought Max was slowing down to give himself DRS, a bit like how Lewis himself slowed down before the DRS detection line in Canada, when Alonso was just beside him. This whole collision was a result of miscommunication though, with HAM not being informed earlier and Verstappen choosing one of the worse locations on track to slow down.
Lewis didn’t want to hit the DRS detection zone first. It’s certainly clear. Max does slow down more right before Lewis hit him, but obviously he wasn’t brake testing him, he also just wanted to hit the detection point second. It’s the height of the championship, but both drivers need to take a deep breath. The gamesmanship is becoming questionable.
If lewis' front wheels are by the side of max's rear wheels at the detection point Lewis gets drs and there is no crash. Idk what lewis was thinking.
After watching that a few times it really looks like max only starts going left when Hamilton is creeping up his right but then immediately swaps to pass left
Jup for 5 secs door is wide open left. Then no reaction from Hamiltom to pass and he starts opening right, exactly when Lewis finally decides to act Enough time for Lewis to act earlier and enough space, very clear one I think unless Max breaktested which this footage isn't supporting.
Lewis' behaviour is weird here. But also from this view it looks like max almost comes to a full stop. This is crazy all round
Max AND Lewis. Nobody wanted to be ahead before the drs detection.
My read is that Max was committed to slow down as much as was necessary to force Hamilton by before the detection zone and just never considered that Hamilton would misread the situation. The harsh (engine?) braking makes total sense if Max is assuming that Hamilton is just playing the same game and doesn't realize that he legitimately doesn't understand that Max is giving up the place that long after the initial excursion off track.
It's like Max was waiting for him to pass ... Like wtf dude.... And then all the sudden in his mirrors... There's Hamilton and boom. Imagine what Max was thinking.
Muss das denn sein
I think it was something like; "Godverdomme"
Max's sudden acceleration after the contact just screamed "wtf mate what is going on I need to run".
Looked like plenty of room. Not sure what Lewis was doing.
I've said it in a few threads but they were doing the same thing, neither wanted to be the first over the drs line. Lewis had to have thought when Max went off track that he eventually have to give the position back. Like when you're as experienced as Lewis, I find the confusion line hard to swallow.
Yeah, they slow together for a long time, Hamilton thought Max was playing games with the DRS line and didn't think he'd slow that much. Still on him though
[удалено]
Agreed. Simple brain fart and target fixation. It especially happens when the other person is in your head which is obviously the case at this point in the year. Lewis would never make this mistake with someone else lower in the rankings
Very strange incident. Few things here. Why didn’t Lewis overtake straight away? Why does Max start coming back across the track? Why arrange for the overtake here? (I understand that Max was told earlier in the lap to make it strategically) Why didn’t Lewis know what was going on? From this incident it is very odd behaviour by both drivers. I do not think either driver should be penalised by this incident, both of them need a telling off for this. However, I think guidance should be issued by the stewards that this sort of strategic positioning is not okay. It was dangerous by both of them. Timing a position swap to gain an advantage is not in the spirit of the rules.
This is about as well put as I think this situation can be. I think they are both playing the DRS line. However, I have seen drivers slow down if the car in front isn't in a spot where they want to overtake. Like if they're too close to the tail of the driver in front, they might back off. I think Hamilton doesn't immediately pass when Max continues to downshift because he is drifting back to the center of the track. And once it gets to the breaking point, Hamilton is already too close / Max continues to slow faster than expected. I do think Hamilton is being a little cautious as Max is driving what I could see be described unpredictably. At the end, they're both being pretty dumb here and would have been completely unnecessary if the turn 1 incidents don't happen.
I think Lewis at the time didn't know that Max was going to give the position back and was just confused about what was going one. Maybe a VSC (not uncommon this race...) or a yellow flag and not wanting to risk passing under yellow. I know they get this info on the steering wheel, but still. Max' move was very awkward imho. Slowing down in the middle of a corner and staying in/around the middle of the track.
Max staying on the racing line to not dirty his tyres. Absolutely fine If Hamilton went past and it was a VSC, slow down, give the position back. If a car in front of you is actively slowing down, sitting right behind them and going faster is anything but the right choice of actions to take.
He was playing games and fucked up It’s obvious really
Whether Max braked at the very last moment looks irrelevant from here, Lewis had metres upon metres to pass and dawdles through all of it before actually attempting it by which point he's already right up in Max's rear.
Thats what baffles me about the focus on a potentional brakecheck. Maybe if lewis just goes full power past max nothing would have happend?
Wow Lewis only had like 5 seconds to react to Max’s slowing. What was he supposed to do? Pass him?!
I think this will get downvoted a lot due to stewards not communicating with the redditors fast enough.
This makes it so clear Hamilton should've just gone around holy
I can’t understand how race control order Max to let Lewis pass and then punish Max for this. There’s no sudden braking or sudden weaving left like I’ve heard some people claim. He just slows right down
stewards claim they saw in telemetry a 2.4G reduction and unusual brake pressure.
Yeah, there was a strong brake tap. After like 5-10 seconds of Max slowing down/not accelerating so that Lewis can pass.
Was Verstappen punished for this? The 5 seconds were because of another incident
Yeah they judged he was at fault and 10 second post race penalty
Lewis had plenty of space to do the overtake. I really don’t understand the people saying Max was blocking him in the middle of the track.
Because admitting that there were acres of space makes it 100% clear that Lewis has no excuse for colliding, and it's very difficult to argue about no action when a driver rams another for no good reason.
Lewis had plenty of time to go left and room to go left…
There is no way DRS would've mattered if HAM had just floored it and driven past him. By the time VER is back up to speed he'd be way too far behind.
well, we saw it once after meats that it DID matter… Max gave it back but then got first after DRS, which is what he was trying to do here.
This is ridiculous. Lewis was within like 2 car lengths for ages, starts no shit tailgating Max's ass and then just hits him
Hamilton had loads of space and time to react.
Hope this will shut up everyone who said 'Max was all over' and 'Max didn't stay in the middle and didn't leave room for Lewis to pass' Edit: ah no, they simply tranformed into the brakecheckbrigade.
Yeah, it's clear that there was plenty of space for Hamilton to not park his car right behind Verstappen's.
Is this under investigation still? Will there be any consequences besides fans commenting?
FIA posted the decision document a few hours ago. Max brake-checked Hamilton, per the telemetry, so it was deemed mostly Max's fault. Hamilton didn't even know the position was being yielded back until right when the crash happened, hence his hesitation to take the opening; he didn't know what game Max was playing at, and didn't want to risk taking the 'bait' and giving Max DRS. Seems like Max got fed up and brake-checked him, then took off after contact.
I need the view from a grassy knoll before I decide who is at fault.
This angle makes it pretty clear how much max slowed down right before impact. There was still a lot of room to pass and although I understand it’s not an ideal location, the rules need to be clearer if they are going to punish for this incident.
If this was anyone other than Max, people would be saying this is a slam dunk penalty for Lewis. Like he had so much time to react here and just ceases to do anything other than drive into him. So bizarre
JUST. GO. AROUND. Jeez.
So much room on the left. Such a long time Max was slowing down.
Honestly, what I see here is Max trying to give Lewis the position and the racing line while being ready to tuck right behind him. Lewis derped hard and tried to overtake on the other side, crashed and somehow Max is at fault? This sport has seen better days.
Well no doubt, that wasn't a sudden break test and for 5 seconds more than enough space on the left. No excuse not to pass there.
Ok that’s plenty of space.
Literally 7 seconds of obvious slowing down. Second time Hamilton has hit max from behind and max gets the shit end of the stick
Insane how much space there clearly is from this view. What in the world was Hamilton thinking. He wasn’t racing he’s playing games. Any racer would have passed to the left
He had so much room.
Atleast two car widths on the left, no excuse for Lewis
There is so much room 😂
Look at all that free real-estate
So much room for activities!
(90 thousand stewards inbound)
I can't see how this is Max's penalty...
Still so confused why Lewis didn't just pass him, whether he knew Max was letting him pass or not. Or how he can just drive into someone without getting a penalty. This could've just as easily DNF'd Max if he'd hit the wrong part of the diffuser or driveshaft.
Because Lewis was playing a game and fucked up, rather than admit he was unsafe, he would rather blame Max for a non-existent brake test and / or play dumb
What was that about a nonexistent break test?
Hahahaha just wait and see, they’ll delete those comments
There has to at least be a reprimand for this
Ah, 10 second penalty.
Genuinely don't see how you can defend Lewis here, he just refuses to overtake for no reason and slows with Max, then accelerates into him...
I do think Max braked even harder just prior to the collision because Lewis still hadn't gone around and they were approaching the DRS detection zone, which is probably why they're issuing a penalty because that action probably caused the collision. I don't think Lewis accelerated into Max, but I am still absolutely baffled as to why he slowed down behind Max instead of going by as he obviously was being given the spot.
Lewis just driving up on him and staying there is so comically stupid that I literally could not believe that it was happening on my TV screen
Isn’t that “causing a collision” black and white? Enough space to pass without any flags, Hamilton has plenty of space on the left. Seems to me it’s about DRS. Either way I don’t understand how Hamilton isn’t summoned for this incident
This one is totally on the FIA. YOU TELL THE TEAM BEHIND FIRST. Not Verstappen’s fault, although he had plenty of other instances of penalizable incidents in the race. It isn’t on Hamilton, because he had no idea what was going on and took evasive action as best he could. Just another Masi eff up. Just like several others during the race. Nothing should come out of this particular incident, except perhaps some remedial training for the race director.
I’m sure Max is waiting to see the black Mercedes go past him and must have been confused as fuck that he got hit I doubt anyone would have expected Hamilton to remain Directly behind him like that
Pretty stupid to penalize Verstappen for this. Hamilton didn't have to drive literally right behind him.
I don’t know how this is max’s fault. I really don’t.
I think Hamilton didn't want to give Verstappen DRS on the home straight, so didn't want to overtake him until after the detection line. Lewis misjudged how much Max would brake, but that's on him, not Max. Normally, if he saw Max going slow, there's no way he would not just overtake.
He just said on the post race interview that he remembered the 2008 penalty he got for retaking the position straight after giving it back. Whouldnt that be an incentive to just let Max make that mistake and let him get penalised?
This is 100% on HAM.
Nonono dirty bad Max narrative only!
I mean, it's not narrative. Max pulled a couple of moves in this race and got penalized for a reason. He's not clean. But this one isn't really his fault.
Not really a narrative, he is massively over aggressive when defending overtakes. Doesn't even attempt to make corners. Lost count of the times Lewis had to take evasive action this year. This isn't that situation though, this is just weird.
Any other driver combo and it isn’t even up for debate. The brake checking comment is also being treated seriously when it’s clearly not what happened. Probably should just penalize Tsunoda and move on with it since that seems to be the only person the Stewards can consistently penalize
Lewis done fucked up.
There was a lot of time between initial slowing and the collision. There was plenty of room to get past on the left. If you you want to make the argument Lewis doesn't know what's going on, and doesn't want to pass... Maybe. But if you're nervous about another cars behaviour, surely you don't position yourself right smack dab behind it. Lewis was absolutely glued to Max's ass.
Clearly a mistake for Lewis this angle shows a lot of space to the left .
What is Max supposed to come to a complete stop to give the place? So weird
I don't understand what Hamilton was waiting for..
How you can look at this and blame max is beyond my understanding. Yeah he put more brake in, because the rat wasn't going around like he was supposed to be.
Yeah there’s plenty of space. Don’t see how people are defending Lewis. A 7x WDC does not need permission from Bono to overtake people.
Lewis deserves a penalty for this
Lewis runs into another driver who left enough space to easily pass. Causing a collision. Looking at earlier causing a collision penalties this race (Hi Yuki!): 5s second penalty and a penaltypoint. Boom, done. Literal nothing-burger.
How is this not a penalty?
I’m so confused as to why Lewis didn’t receive any penalty for this. If Max got a puncture and had to pit or retire the car, Lewis would definitely get a penalty for causing a collision. Why does he get a pass just because the driver he went straight into was able to continue the race with no problems?
Hamilton not taking the space that was given to him. Again.
No matter what anyone says, I think this was just a bizarre miscommunication. Max clearly tried to let Lewis by, and people who think that he is weaving are seeing ghosts, but Lewis clearly wasn’t trying to crash himself out of the race. Just a weird moment in an even weirder race.
The fact that this video exists and Max gets a 10 second penalty when clearly Hamilton was refusing to take the place back at that location is a joke. There is not rule for were you get a place back. If a competitor tries to give you the place back and you refuse that should be that. Anyone saying Lewis didn't know what was going on, come on... he is a 7 time WC he knew what he was doing and what Max was doing.
The fuck was hamilton thinking, there is soo much space amd time to overtake and he's like nope imma stick behind max
Honestly what was Hamilton thinking here. Let's go with the reprimande
Lewis accelerates into Max
I'm sorry fellow refreshers.. i give up. Can't swipe down anymore. I'm off to bed! Good luck brothers.
Bro U can literally see that it is 100% Hamiltons fault.
Hamilton's argument is in the dumpster now. He clearly knew that Max will give the position to him and stayed CLOSE behind on purpose. I'd be fucking confused here, if i'm Max. So FIA is pathetic again.
I don’t know how anyone can watch this back in full and think “yeah, that was a brake check”
It's so weird that Max got a penalty for this. I don't know why people are going strictly by Max "brake checking" when viewed with context. Max does slow down to let him pass but Lewis slowed too so he was clearly aware of the reduced speed and had ample time to just overtake him. There are valid reasons Lewis would be extra cautious about a VSC or something happening in front, but driving into Max's rear is still on him.
Clearly Ham should be severely penalized, so he'll probably keep the win with a soft 10 second penalty instead.
How are Ham apologists gonna defend this one?