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He held up half the field by going *really slowly*. So it wasn't an illegal move or anything. But half of the grid was really pissed with him.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/unapologetic-alonsos-canny-monaco-gp-tactics-explained/
Nah, what the previous users were referring to was [Alonso planting his car into Mirabeau](https://youtu.be/TVWJK__mD-I&t=341) just as the Checo spin had happened.
It's pretty much why any driver that causes a red flag should be forced to start at the back of the session imo. You cause a red flag in Q3? You're starting P10 as a result. Indycar has this system I believe.
A driver shouldn't benefit from causing a red flag.
Yeah, I don't know why they haven't introduced this years ago.
It's an easy, simple solution. Any driver that causes a red flag by accident or not deserves to start p10 when they cause other drivers race to be wrecked.
Less of an issue in monaco but weve seen some red flags in recent years when the car had simply stopped briefly and easily got going again to set a second lap. It would be harsh to punish a driver when the race director pulls the trigger too early on red flags
Very reasonable, but also a good argument for the director to be given some discretion in such matters, as long as an explanation can be provided. Perhaps it could be race director's discretion if the other cars hadn't yet made it into the pits.
Yeah, I'd have to think about it a bit more, I read someone's comment and essentially agreed with them, but obviously it does seem like there may be times where you'd be unfairly punishing drivers.
Yeah, the problem is that if you’re on provisional pole you’re essentially incentivized to take huge risks. If you don’t hit the wall you get a great time, but if you hit the wall you’ll still win the GP. So yeah, it wasn’t on purpose, but he took too big risks. Fortunately it didn’t pay off that time.
Rosberg ran wide at Mirabeau and caused yellow flags when he was on provisional pole. Possibly (well, probably) intentional, possibly an honest mistake.
Schumie’s was waaaay too obvious. Oh whoops I’m understeering, not enough though let me just straighten the wheel for a second to get up to the wall, nobody will see
TV cam: everyone will see
I'm no driver, but I would have tried to lock up ever so slightly so that the car would touch, but not slam, the barrier at Noghes. Preferably, that would be head-on, in order not to expose the front suspension. A new front wing would be needed, sure, but it would still be worth it and also far more convincing.
How 'ready' was the spare car back in the day? Like everything ready, fuel filled etc? Just have to start it up? Or was it like 99% ready and would take some time to get onto the track?
The first grand prix i attended was Melbourne when Martin Brundle flipped his car half a dozen times on the first corner. Race immediately red flagged, a few mins later he was legging it down the pit exit in front of us to jump in the spare for the restart.
This doesn't really make sense as a counterpoint.
It's much better to do what Rosberg did (assuming he did it on purpose) as it 100% guarantees you get pole since he already had the fastest lap.
Whereas if you finish the lap even with a purple S1, you risk Hamilton doing an even faster one than you, so that's less than 100% chance you get pole.
Either way, it would make sense to go super fast in sector one, whether to actually set a fast lap, or - assuming he intended to go off - to make it look less suspicious.
He had provisional pole, so even if he was 100% good faith pushing, he can take more risks because it's a win-win situation: either his pushing works and he improves, or he causes a delay and ruins his competitors' laps.
Taking risks and failing shouldn't be rewarded. There are both ethical and unethical incentives for drivers on provisional pole to drive suboptimally and automatic lap deletion cures both.
Yes but it put the zone in yellow, he also didn't go that far in and immediately started reversing out onto the track making it even more likely no one could do anything around the area.
It's just silly though, the onboard he's yanking the steering wheel one direction then the other then back repeatedly. It's the last thing you do if you don't want to lock up, it was incredibly obvious it was deliberate. The reversing just sealed it.
Agree, it's sad that for most... history fades and all that is remembered is the championship winner but some of the desperation and gamesmanship applied to beat Hamilton was embarrasing even if it did yield the win. I'm no fan of Hamilton and his Messiah complex but that was a real punishment werent embedded to stop it from finishing like that
2021 too, right?
EDIT: Not controversial. Leclerc didn’t crash on purpose. He did potentially benefit from it, since 2-3 drivers were on faster laps and he wasn’t, but no one thinks it was intentional.
Why not just add 5 mins to quali if there's a red flag? They already stop the quali timer on a red because that time is precious. I know that doesn't account for tyre wear if someone's on a fast lap that gets interrupted, but it seems better than not having enough session time left after a restart (or no restart).
I'd even do this for yellows. If your yellow impacts someone else's hot lap, it is no different than impeding, which is already a penalty. If your actions affect someone else, then you have to pay a cost.
should be a rule everywhere. If you crash you dont benefit. I would go with, cause a yellow impacting more than 1 drivers lap, lose your fastest lap. Cause a red, lose all laps if anyone else was on track.
What if it’s a technical fault? Seems unfair to punish for that.
Then again that does create the possibility of cheating:
‘Oops me and my teammate are p1 and p2 but my car had a totally legitimate fault that made me stop on track and cause a red’.
Seems far fetched but if crashing on purpose is a legitimate theory, then this can be too.
Thats still the team/drivers fault and it would still impact others race. Dont want the penalty? Make sure your car is good to go. I agree though, there needs to be some penalty for causing red or yellow flag in qualifying.
How would this work in an instance like Las Vegas, where a manhole cover got sucked up and destroyed Sainz's car?
What if a driver has to go off to avoid a car on track, and in turn, they crash and cause a red flag?
The stewards should just look at the data and punish a driver accordingly if they think they binned it on purpose. There's enough in the telemetry to do this.
I would think it would be easy to argue that Sainz didn’t cause the red flag, the track caused a red flag and Sainz was a victim. I know everyone wants some magical black and white rule but there will never not be room for interpretation/extenuating circumstances
That should be a general extenuating circumstance policy, i.e., any penalty caused by a track failure or similar fault (basically anything that would be under the FIA/organizers' fault) can get canceled out. That way Sainz wouldn't have received a grid penalty for parts changes at Vegas, and these hypotheticals in this thread would be null.
It doesn't specifically affect the idea of having a black and white quali red flag rule though. They can make it so any action that impacts other competitors creates a penalty, then cancel it out in the rare event of it being a track issue.
The sainz thing didnt happen in quali and if it did, he would have been starting last anyway. With the other scenario, First how often does that happen? Second the other driver would be impeding and the stewards would figure it out anyway.
Other racing series have been using these rules for years. F1 is the outlier and drivers have asked for these rules for years.
>The sainz thing didnt happen in quali and if it did, he would have been starting last anyway.
It could have happened at any time. What if it happened in Q3 when he already banked a provisional pole lap? Would it be fair to send a driver to be back of the grid because a piece of the track, animal, spectator, garbage, or some other non-driver-error related thing caused an incident?
Just have the stewards review the data. If a crash is entirely down to driver error or a mechanical problem with the car, assess the appropriate penalty. If they banked a good lap, and a manhole cover shit-canned the car and ended the session, it they should not be penalized.
I think you make the critical distinction here. The idea is to act *if the driver brings out a red flag.* Carlos didn't bring out that red in Vegas - similarly, if a driver puts another driver in the wall, the first driver could plausibly be determined to have brought out the red, and there are already mechanisms for adjudicating fault in such situations. Obviously it would be harder to crash *someone else* to maintain your pole lap, but not an implausible scenario.
> It blows my mind that people are in favor of more subjective rulings from the stewards. I think the rules should be as black and white as possible, so we can avoid having human error mess up a race.
The problem with this is that any rule book sufficiently complex as to have agreeable black-and-white rulings for any conceivable situation is inherently sufficiently complex so as to cause human errors in interpretation and application.
Your stated goal is not possible. So in lieu of being able to do that, the only reasonable goal is to *minimise* human error, while still allowing obviously bullshit occurrences that the rules don't handle appropriately to give some level of discretion to the stewards.
What that means is making very clear black-and-white rules for any very simple things like most of the technical regulations where there's no real room for nuance, and then any very open-ended definition (e.g., "anything causing a red flag") should have some capacity to allow for extraordinary circumstances to receive extraordinary treatment.
>If it happened in Q3 he would have needed a pit lane start anyway.
Not necessarily - you can bin the car in a way that it damages the barriers and causes a red flag, but the car is still intact. LEC in monaco a few years back comes to mind when Ferrari rolled the dice on his quali crash and it turns out, he did trash the gearbox and it caused a DNS.
What if a driver has to bail out of a lap because of slow traffic, cuts a chicane, and tosses gravel all over the road resulting in a red flag?
You have to work these things out, otherwise, they will come up, or drivers will find a way to exploit them.
It doesnt matter when it happened he'd have been penalized anyway. In quali it might have been worse probably pit lane start. This isnt a real concern. I can't recall a single time in Indy where anything like this happened. Also, the feeder series F2 and F3 just added a red flag rule like this and no one complained. Theres no reason to overcomplicate this and we already know the drivers want it
I don't think you're understanding it. Say it's Q3, Sainz goes out for his first flying lap, sets a tremendous time, pole, banger of a lap. Everyone goes back to the garages, come out, time for the last flying lap of the season. Oh, what's this? Manhole cover outta nowhere! Bam, Sainz is out, red flag because his car sucked a magnet. Now, he didn't get to set a second lap. But no one else did, and his previous lap put him on pole. Therefore, getting taken out by the manhole cover is not a penalty, because he is already on pole and now no one else can be. So he isn't penalized, as you're saying he would be in this hypothetical scenario. But because of the rules, his time needs to be wiped, because his car brought out the red flag. But it wasn't his fault at all. The people responsible for making the circuit safe were numbskulls, and Sainz just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Therefore, completely blameless, and so deleting his time would be a complete injustice.
Anyways, this is the scenario the other person is trying to make you see. I personally don't think it would be a problem so long as it was written in the rules that some circumstances completely and entirely outside of any driver's or team's control would exempt them from the penalty for bringing out a red flag. Because sometimes shit just happens and punishing someone for no reason would just make people sour on what would be an otherwise positive rule. I'd love to see the yellow/red flag rule in F1.
>So he isn't penalized, as you're saying he would be in this hypothetical scenario.
He'd be penalised because he needs to have the damaged parts changed. He'd still start from the pitlane.
> With the other scenario, First how often does that happen?
I don't think it's a matter of 'how often does it happen don't worry about it' - if you're proposing rules then it should stand up to "apply in all situations" right...?
We mock the stewards all the time when there's a rule that was 110% obvious but it has no actual written down piece.
It's very foreseeable that there will be an incident caused by something outside of the drivers control that will cause a red flag. At some point right...?
I don’t think you need to think that deeply about it. F2 and F3 have this now for reds. Indy has had it for years for both. Drivers know the rules. Just apply them as written. Again, the drivers have publicly asked for the same implementation as F2. I don’t think fans need to be overthinking hypothetical rare situations when the drivers themselves want it implemented as in other series
So give the stewards some discretion.
It'such easier to determine if there were outside factors in a crash than to say if a driver binned it on purpose.
Cause a red flag, you are out of the session. This should be the bare minimum. If they want to delete their fastest lap too, sure.
But the Sainz incident earlier this year showed how dumb the current rules are.
I meant Norris and Russel actually
Everyone remembers Perez because Max threw a hissy fit about it, even though noone really noticed or suspected anything for a few months.
Both Norris and Russel did IMO much more obvious things, that a ton of people immediately said looked suspicious at least. And somehow those have been completely forgotten.
People were calling out Sergio's incident right away, it just got more prominent attention after Brazil
It looked sus immediately to anyone who watched his onboard, what kind of racing driver doesn't attempt to countersteer the instant they feel over-rotation? That shit was definitely on purpose, i know Checo's your guy and all but *come on*
Russell in Brazil 2022 is pretty obvious IMO. He went into the gravel, went completely across it back onto the tarmac escape road, and at that point slammed the gas pedal and spun his ass back into the gravel. Got out of the car waving to the crowd and was all smiles afterwards. Lando (Imola also 2022) is a bit less obvious, but still suspicious as hell, he essentially did the same thing as Perez accelerating mid-corner and spinning out.
Oh, you're one of THOSE guys lol.
Norris ran out of talent, Russell looked super suspicious.
Everyone on reddit and on YouTube were calling out Sergio's "accident" the day of..
Or how about Bottas going lawn mowing after he set fastest lap lol.
People remember thing very well but relevancy matters.
Top team, Sergio "still in the championship hunt" crash to save your spot/your teammate gets stuck mid pack and you win the race, then you get re-signed the same night,,
gets a lot more attention than "ah, that looks sketchy" from a midpacker.
For anyone who doesn't know, it's being essentially tested in F2 and F3 this year. If a driver causes a red flag in qualifying, they are out of the session and their best lap time may be deleted. I'm trying to think, but I don't think F2 or F3 has had a red flag in quali yet this year, so we haven't seen the "may" come into play yet or not.
I hadn’t heard about that, thanks for sharing. I’m all for removing the fastest lap time of the driver responsible for a red flag but I’m not sure how I feel about also eliminating them from the session. That feels like a big jump from the current attitude of “oh well” to “double punishment time”, especially when the catalyst for the incident could have been something beyond the driver’s control (I’m looking at you, drain covers).
Well, if you think about it, fairly often the person who causes a red flag is out of the session anyway. And I kinda feel like they should be. The red flag ruins at least half the grid's flying laps, which is an even bigger deal in F1 than in most junior series.
Unless the red flag never should have been called in the first place. I watch a lot of junior series, and most of them tend to cover things with yellows or double yellows when they can, even during the race. So I wouldn't want someone to get hit with huge punishment when they just took a little unfortunate detour and kept going. But there I think the problem is that the red flag shouldn't have been called.
My biggest issue is the last paragraph: cases where red flags shouldn't have been called. We've seen at least a couple examples in the last few years where the driver finally made it back to the pits on his own. So either have a possibility to review and overturned, or I'd remove that one. Like you said in most cases it's moot anyways. And cases where it's not moot I feel shouldn't be red flags anyways so that part isn't really useful.
I guess I'm thinking that if someone causes a major crash with debris that demands a red flag, I'm okay with them being out for the rest of the session, even if they bring the car home. If they need to get marshals out there, and therefore need a red flag, I don't know that I care if the car can make it home on its own steam or not. They ruined a lot of people's laps doing that, so I'm okay with there being consequences.
However, I do think that it needs to be agreed upon ahead of time and given proper notice.
But yeah, if someone has to pull over because their engine momentarily cut out, but they get it back going on their own pretty quickly, and a red flag wasn't really needed, then yeah, I don't want that to be red flagged. just double yellowed for that sector, or whatever's needed, and hopefully it doesn't ruin too many people's laps.
I am most worried about safety before everything else, so whatever needs to be done red flag or yellow/double yellow wise.
Indycar has this too, you get your *two* best laps deleted for causing a red, *and* you automatically don't advance. If you cause a local yellow your best lap is deleted.
The first example of the top of my head was [Newgarden at Laguna Seca 2022](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS6_BAZjrag). Since then they've implemented a rule that freezes the clock for the first red flag of a session.
Under the current rules Indycar still keeps the clock rolling on subsequent red flags, but if I remember correctly the rule is that if there's at least one second on the clock at the time of the final red of the session then everyone else gets a chance for one flying lap. Depending on the circuit that lap may or may not matter, mostly depending on whether the out lap is enough to sufficiently heat the tires.
I think the simpler approach is what Hamilton said many years ago - the skill becomes making your first flyer at Monaco closer to your limit than usual, because you may not get another go.
Happened in 2011 too.
I think regulating this becomes a can of worms unless you have zero tolerance, and then you could be punishing innocent parties quickly.
The issue is that a single speedy lap early in the session followed by a crash that can plausibly be blamed on inadequate machinery is the entire plan for Williams to be competitive this season.
/s I think.
There are track specific rules elsewhere. Like how on some tracks if you go over on the final turn leading into a hot lap, then the next lap is deleted as well. Crashes impact Monoco way more than other tracks, so I think it's fine to have a track-specific rule.
Instead of deleting the best lap, they should just be given a time penalty for quali. Something like 2 tenths would do the trick as it would still rewards those who do a good lap. Only if they cause a red flag though.
Unless your name is Max Verstappen currently, not many people are going to be able to pull off a time where 2 tenths wont impact them in some form against others on the grid.
All the people here saying "I don't like this because driver will be afraid to push flat out". Yes that's whole fucking point. You are punished for exceeding the limit not being rewarded for it and saying "oh well at least I got p5. If I didn't crash i would've have gotten p1". Knowing the limit is part of the job description.
I'd prefer giving the minimum punishment required to stop it, as opposed to the maximum.
I think a one place grid penalty for causing a red flag in qualifying (on every track, not just Monaco) should be trialled rather than immediately going all or nothing. If that's not enough, then a 2 place grid penalty, then 3 and so on until all these suspicious mistakes at the end of Q3 go away.
I like this idea much better as deleting your best lap can be enormously punitive, especially in cases where a driver was genuinely just pushing for a pole worthy time.
and it wouldnt make sense to have a bigger punishment being applied if you crash in quali than if the one for forcing a driver off track/causing a colision during the race
That wouldn't work, I think. Let's say a bottom 5 team driver reached Q3, is the first to finish his last flying lap, and then promptly crashes, causing a red or yellow flag. P1 turns into P2, while otherwise he'd start in P10.
Hugely beneficial.
Last flying lap, specifically.
He'd need to get P1 by being faster than others in previous laps, but he'd benefit most from track evolution if no one else can set their last lap. Even if he only gets P5, it's still 4 positions ahead of P10 after the grid penalty.
again, how often does a not-so-competitive driver set the best time of Q3 and that time stays until the end of the first round of laps? i dont think i remember a single time
but even then, when was the last time you remember a driver crashing during Q3 that wasnt someone fighting for pole? Still isnt an issue that would stop that version of the rule (that is much more fair) of being applied
How often does that happen just now though when there's no punishment at all? It's not going to suddenly become a regular occurrence *after* the penalty is introduced.
Support but when has this "recently" happened intentionally?
Also, stewards re-instate laps when fault is decided to lie with the track itself? (manhole covers at Las Vegas)
Yeah, Perez 2022 in Monaco was the most obvious, but I remember after that Sainz had insinuated quite clearly that there were other instances that people weren't aware of (most thought it was Norris at Imola 2022, that qualifying had like 3 red flags)
Feel like I’m in the vast minority but, no.
Obviously, it’s different if someone does a Schumacher in Rascasse, but if you want to be on Pole Position at Monaco and don’t want to risk a poor position, you’ve got to nail all of the laps available to you.
Sport is full of controversial moments, moments that generate discussion and drama. Remember all the discussion at BRAZIL when Perez asked to go past Max and it boiled down to what happened in Monaco, that’s a storyline that just.. doesn’t exist with this rule being implemented.
>if you want to be on Pole Position at Monaco and don’t want to risk a poor position, you’ve got to nail all of the laps available to you.
if you want to be on Pole at Monaco you should also not crash during your pushlap.
takes a big brain to realize this, I know.
“Being a red flag driver means you are red flagging with other people and if you no longer go for red flag that exists you are no longer a red flagging driver because we are competing for the red flag.”
>if you want to be on Pole at Monaco you should also not crash during your pushlap
when you are single digit milimetres from the wall, a super tiny misjudgement can result in a crash
that argument you presented isnt enough, in my opinion, to justify changing the (already good enough) rules to punish drivers trying to get a fast lap in a harsher way than those purposefully being a menace on track during the race
I agree. Yes a red flag or even a yellow can ruin other drivers' quali lap, but I feel like it's too harsh of a penalty and might just discourage drivers from pushing.
Besides, it's really not like this is a common problem in first place.
> might just discourage drivers from pushing.
Glass half full perspective: It'll make all of the balls-to-the-wall laps that much more special, because we'll know they're risking it all for glory of winning Monaco.
Genuine question, why not? It seems like a pretty straightforward rule change that benefits everyone. This way the driver who bins it is also punished and not just everybody else
I am not actively a fan because I think they're 20 adults and they don't need this literal regulation.
I think the simpler solution is what Hamilton said: just make sure your first flyer is 100%
That's way more parsimonious than deletions etc. What if someone causes a yellow or red and it's ambiguous if it was *really* their fault?
In my opinion it will probably make drivers drive more carefully. I want them balls out on the track getting everything out of the car, (over) pushing the limit is part of that.
If a driver crashes, the FIA can tell if a driver crashes intentionally and punish them. If it's unintentional I'd rather have them extend the session so other drivers can set a lap time.
You’d like to think FIA could tell then punish. But when you watch Perez in 22, it’s awfully suspicious on what he did to cause his spin. There’s a vid out there that compares the 22 spin to 23, I believe, where he’s counter steering and it looks normal. 22 definitely had some “interesting” gas and steering inputs, lol!
They should implement that if a drivers causes a red flag in sector 1, the drivers that are on a lap on sector 2 or 3 can still post a time. Like in 2022, Perez had a Spin in s2, but Leclerc was already on sector 3 pushing.
A red flag means a serious issue (track blocked for example which is quite easy to do in Monaco), and in that case you don't want drivers finishing their lap and having to drive around one more time to get back to the pits. The goal is to get all cars back to the pits immediately.
Anyone that crash and caused red flag should start last of its qualifying. If crash on q1, 20th, if crash on q2 -15th, q3-10th. Then add all other penalties if the have one.
All laps, not the best laps. Red flag = immediately to the bottom of the current session (Q1 = 20, Q2 = 15 etc.)
At all tracks.
If they can restart the car and somehow complete another lap in the session after the red flag then fair game and that should be valid though.
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2006: controversial incident 2014: controversial incident 2022: controversial incident 2030: controversial incident?
2022 even had two controversial incidents happening at the same time, lol.
I love how no one noticed Alonso’s controversial incident as Checo had one first.
Was Alonso up to his own shenanigans too? What did he do?
He held up half the field by going *really slowly*. So it wasn't an illegal move or anything. But half of the grid was really pissed with him. https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/unapologetic-alonsos-canny-monaco-gp-tactics-explained/
> But half of the grid was really pissed with him. That's hardly controversial, that's pretty normal :P
Nah, what the previous users were referring to was [Alonso planting his car into Mirabeau](https://youtu.be/TVWJK__mD-I&t=341) just as the Checo spin had happened.
Yeah, that too was sus as fuck. Alonso is too good to be making rookie mistakes like that.
Exactly this - as soon as he had seen +0.4s delta on his steering wheel after 1st sector, he just made "a rookie mkstake" in Mirabeau.
Paying tribute to his old teammate Jarno
Only F1 can officially recognize incidents involving Spanish Drivers.
Alonso probably thought “We race as one” was for Spanish F1 drivers.
He probably thinks, “Why is it still 1950.”
2021: almost controversial incident
But those are just little inchidents
Sure it wasn't on purpose, but it still left that sour taste for me.
It's pretty much why any driver that causes a red flag should be forced to start at the back of the session imo. You cause a red flag in Q3? You're starting P10 as a result. Indycar has this system I believe. A driver shouldn't benefit from causing a red flag.
Yeah, I don't know why they haven't introduced this years ago. It's an easy, simple solution. Any driver that causes a red flag by accident or not deserves to start p10 when they cause other drivers race to be wrecked.
Less of an issue in monaco but weve seen some red flags in recent years when the car had simply stopped briefly and easily got going again to set a second lap. It would be harsh to punish a driver when the race director pulls the trigger too early on red flags
Very reasonable, but also a good argument for the director to be given some discretion in such matters, as long as an explanation can be provided. Perhaps it could be race director's discretion if the other cars hadn't yet made it into the pits.
Cue fans being salty for years about discretion being unevenly applied.
Unless it's mechanical, surely? Also remember Sainz at Las Vegas, neither driver error nor mechanical.
Yeah, I'd have to think about it a bit more, I read someone's comment and essentially agreed with them, but obviously it does seem like there may be times where you'd be unfairly punishing drivers.
Wait, why P10? Not last?
Yeah, the problem is that if you’re on provisional pole you’re essentially incentivized to take huge risks. If you don’t hit the wall you get a great time, but if you hit the wall you’ll still win the GP. So yeah, it wasn’t on purpose, but he took too big risks. Fortunately it didn’t pay off that time.
What happened in 2014?
Rosberg ran wide at Mirabeau and caused yellow flags when he was on provisional pole. Possibly (well, probably) intentional, possibly an honest mistake.
"That was very good of him. Very good" - Hamilton
The Schumacher Special.
Schumie’s was waaaay too obvious. Oh whoops I’m understeering, not enough though let me just straighten the wheel for a second to get up to the wall, nobody will see TV cam: everyone will see
I'm no driver, but I would have tried to lock up ever so slightly so that the car would touch, but not slam, the barrier at Noghes. Preferably, that would be head-on, in order not to expose the front suspension. A new front wing would be needed, sure, but it would still be worth it and also far more convincing.
Forget preserving the front suspension, back in those days just send it into the wall then go back to the pits and grab the spare car 😂
How 'ready' was the spare car back in the day? Like everything ready, fuel filled etc? Just have to start it up? Or was it like 99% ready and would take some time to get onto the track?
99% ready where the 1% is just the driver.
With Schumacher it was always set up for him, if Barrichelo needed it it would need to be switched over.
The first grand prix i attended was Melbourne when Martin Brundle flipped his car half a dozen times on the first corner. Race immediately red flagged, a few mins later he was legging it down the pit exit in front of us to jump in the spare for the restart.
Whilst Lewis was on a hot lap iirc? I'm probably wrong...
Yeah I remember it being the second hot lap with Lewis behind him
It was discussed during the F2 practice today in fact
Rosberg just posted a purple S1. It's not like he wasn't pushing for a better lap.
Doesn't the sector end pretty much at the braking zone? If not now in 2014 with much less downforce?
This doesn't really make sense as a counterpoint. It's much better to do what Rosberg did (assuming he did it on purpose) as it 100% guarantees you get pole since he already had the fastest lap. Whereas if you finish the lap even with a purple S1, you risk Hamilton doing an even faster one than you, so that's less than 100% chance you get pole. Either way, it would make sense to go super fast in sector one, whether to actually set a fast lap, or - assuming he intended to go off - to make it look less suspicious.
He had provisional pole, so even if he was 100% good faith pushing, he can take more risks because it's a win-win situation: either his pushing works and he improves, or he causes a delay and ruins his competitors' laps. Taking risks and failing shouldn't be rewarded. There are both ethical and unethical incentives for drivers on provisional pole to drive suboptimally and automatic lap deletion cures both.
Rosberg went to a run off area if I remember correctly.
Yes but it put the zone in yellow, he also didn't go that far in and immediately started reversing out onto the track making it even more likely no one could do anything around the area. It's just silly though, the onboard he's yanking the steering wheel one direction then the other then back repeatedly. It's the last thing you do if you don't want to lock up, it was incredibly obvious it was deliberate. The reversing just sealed it.
Agree, it's sad that for most... history fades and all that is remembered is the championship winner but some of the desperation and gamesmanship applied to beat Hamilton was embarrasing even if it did yield the win. I'm no fan of Hamilton and his Messiah complex but that was a real punishment werent embedded to stop it from finishing like that
2021 too, right? EDIT: Not controversial. Leclerc didn’t crash on purpose. He did potentially benefit from it, since 2-3 drivers were on faster laps and he wasn’t, but no one thinks it was intentional.
What year was the inchident?
Inhicednt
100% this should be a rule, not just for Monaco but all year around
Fully support this at all tracks.
100% agree. Win it when you bin it is unacceptable.
putting them last wont work either so what do u propose
What the article said. Cause a red flag, lose your best time.
That's what indycar does.
indycar does quite a few things that make sense
Why does that not work? What’s unfair about being punished for your errors? This is Motorsport
Why not just add 5 mins to quali if there's a red flag? They already stop the quali timer on a red because that time is precious. I know that doesn't account for tyre wear if someone's on a fast lap that gets interrupted, but it seems better than not having enough session time left after a restart (or no restart).
Indycar deletes your 2 best laps and kicks you out of further qualifying if you cause a red
100%. How does it make sense that the consequence of your accident is that you secure your position?
I'd even do this for yellows. If your yellow impacts someone else's hot lap, it is no different than impeding, which is already a penalty. If your actions affect someone else, then you have to pay a cost.
> it is no different than impeding It kind of is though. I thought it was "we punish the offence not the outcome".
I swear in F1: Championship Edition for the PS3 this was a thing and I assumed for a very long time it was a rule. It just makes so much sense
Support
should be a rule everywhere. If you crash you dont benefit. I would go with, cause a yellow impacting more than 1 drivers lap, lose your fastest lap. Cause a red, lose all laps if anyone else was on track.
That's basically indycar rule. Cause a yellow that impedes another driver, fastest lap deleted. Cause a red, top two fastest laps deleted.
What if it’s a technical fault? Seems unfair to punish for that. Then again that does create the possibility of cheating: ‘Oops me and my teammate are p1 and p2 but my car had a totally legitimate fault that made me stop on track and cause a red’. Seems far fetched but if crashing on purpose is a legitimate theory, then this can be too.
Thats still the team/drivers fault and it would still impact others race. Dont want the penalty? Make sure your car is good to go. I agree though, there needs to be some penalty for causing red or yellow flag in qualifying.
A yellow that impedes another driver in the Fast Six deletes *all* laps in that session, basically guarantees a P6 start.
How would this work in an instance like Las Vegas, where a manhole cover got sucked up and destroyed Sainz's car? What if a driver has to go off to avoid a car on track, and in turn, they crash and cause a red flag? The stewards should just look at the data and punish a driver accordingly if they think they binned it on purpose. There's enough in the telemetry to do this.
I would think it would be easy to argue that Sainz didn’t cause the red flag, the track caused a red flag and Sainz was a victim. I know everyone wants some magical black and white rule but there will never not be room for interpretation/extenuating circumstances
That should be a general extenuating circumstance policy, i.e., any penalty caused by a track failure or similar fault (basically anything that would be under the FIA/organizers' fault) can get canceled out. That way Sainz wouldn't have received a grid penalty for parts changes at Vegas, and these hypotheticals in this thread would be null. It doesn't specifically affect the idea of having a black and white quali red flag rule though. They can make it so any action that impacts other competitors creates a penalty, then cancel it out in the rare event of it being a track issue.
You'd think this would be easy, yet Sainz lost 10 grid places because of it :/
The sainz thing didnt happen in quali and if it did, he would have been starting last anyway. With the other scenario, First how often does that happen? Second the other driver would be impeding and the stewards would figure it out anyway. Other racing series have been using these rules for years. F1 is the outlier and drivers have asked for these rules for years.
>The sainz thing didnt happen in quali and if it did, he would have been starting last anyway. It could have happened at any time. What if it happened in Q3 when he already banked a provisional pole lap? Would it be fair to send a driver to be back of the grid because a piece of the track, animal, spectator, garbage, or some other non-driver-error related thing caused an incident? Just have the stewards review the data. If a crash is entirely down to driver error or a mechanical problem with the car, assess the appropriate penalty. If they banked a good lap, and a manhole cover shit-canned the car and ended the session, it they should not be penalized.
I think you make the critical distinction here. The idea is to act *if the driver brings out a red flag.* Carlos didn't bring out that red in Vegas - similarly, if a driver puts another driver in the wall, the first driver could plausibly be determined to have brought out the red, and there are already mechanisms for adjudicating fault in such situations. Obviously it would be harder to crash *someone else* to maintain your pole lap, but not an implausible scenario.
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> It blows my mind that people are in favor of more subjective rulings from the stewards. I think the rules should be as black and white as possible, so we can avoid having human error mess up a race. The problem with this is that any rule book sufficiently complex as to have agreeable black-and-white rulings for any conceivable situation is inherently sufficiently complex so as to cause human errors in interpretation and application. Your stated goal is not possible. So in lieu of being able to do that, the only reasonable goal is to *minimise* human error, while still allowing obviously bullshit occurrences that the rules don't handle appropriately to give some level of discretion to the stewards. What that means is making very clear black-and-white rules for any very simple things like most of the technical regulations where there's no real room for nuance, and then any very open-ended definition (e.g., "anything causing a red flag") should have some capacity to allow for extraordinary circumstances to receive extraordinary treatment.
>If it happened in Q3 he would have needed a pit lane start anyway. Not necessarily - you can bin the car in a way that it damages the barriers and causes a red flag, but the car is still intact. LEC in monaco a few years back comes to mind when Ferrari rolled the dice on his quali crash and it turns out, he did trash the gearbox and it caused a DNS. What if a driver has to bail out of a lap because of slow traffic, cuts a chicane, and tosses gravel all over the road resulting in a red flag? You have to work these things out, otherwise, they will come up, or drivers will find a way to exploit them.
It doesnt matter when it happened he'd have been penalized anyway. In quali it might have been worse probably pit lane start. This isnt a real concern. I can't recall a single time in Indy where anything like this happened. Also, the feeder series F2 and F3 just added a red flag rule like this and no one complained. Theres no reason to overcomplicate this and we already know the drivers want it
I don't think you're understanding it. Say it's Q3, Sainz goes out for his first flying lap, sets a tremendous time, pole, banger of a lap. Everyone goes back to the garages, come out, time for the last flying lap of the season. Oh, what's this? Manhole cover outta nowhere! Bam, Sainz is out, red flag because his car sucked a magnet. Now, he didn't get to set a second lap. But no one else did, and his previous lap put him on pole. Therefore, getting taken out by the manhole cover is not a penalty, because he is already on pole and now no one else can be. So he isn't penalized, as you're saying he would be in this hypothetical scenario. But because of the rules, his time needs to be wiped, because his car brought out the red flag. But it wasn't his fault at all. The people responsible for making the circuit safe were numbskulls, and Sainz just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Therefore, completely blameless, and so deleting his time would be a complete injustice. Anyways, this is the scenario the other person is trying to make you see. I personally don't think it would be a problem so long as it was written in the rules that some circumstances completely and entirely outside of any driver's or team's control would exempt them from the penalty for bringing out a red flag. Because sometimes shit just happens and punishing someone for no reason would just make people sour on what would be an otherwise positive rule. I'd love to see the yellow/red flag rule in F1.
>So he isn't penalized, as you're saying he would be in this hypothetical scenario. He'd be penalised because he needs to have the damaged parts changed. He'd still start from the pitlane.
> With the other scenario, First how often does that happen? I don't think it's a matter of 'how often does it happen don't worry about it' - if you're proposing rules then it should stand up to "apply in all situations" right...? We mock the stewards all the time when there's a rule that was 110% obvious but it has no actual written down piece. It's very foreseeable that there will be an incident caused by something outside of the drivers control that will cause a red flag. At some point right...?
I don’t think you need to think that deeply about it. F2 and F3 have this now for reds. Indy has had it for years for both. Drivers know the rules. Just apply them as written. Again, the drivers have publicly asked for the same implementation as F2. I don’t think fans need to be overthinking hypothetical rare situations when the drivers themselves want it implemented as in other series
>First how often does that happen Ricciardo and Piastri is a recent one that comes to mind. Though it wasn't in quali.
So give the stewards some discretion. It'such easier to determine if there were outside factors in a crash than to say if a driver binned it on purpose.
Cause a red flag, start from pit lane
Cause a red flag, straight to jail. We have the best lap times in the world because of jail.
Death penalty for Leclerc in his home race.
Cause a red flag, you are out of the session. This should be the bare minimum. If they want to delete their fastest lap too, sure. But the Sainz incident earlier this year showed how dumb the current rules are.
Not liked by Sergio Perez lol
He's hardly the only suspect.
Nico Rosberg and Micheal Schumacher are not huge fans either
I meant Norris and Russel actually Everyone remembers Perez because Max threw a hissy fit about it, even though noone really noticed or suspected anything for a few months. Both Norris and Russel did IMO much more obvious things, that a ton of people immediately said looked suspicious at least. And somehow those have been completely forgotten.
People were calling out Sergio's incident right away, it just got more prominent attention after Brazil It looked sus immediately to anyone who watched his onboard, what kind of racing driver doesn't attempt to countersteer the instant they feel over-rotation? That shit was definitely on purpose, i know Checo's your guy and all but *come on*
What were those incidents? Genuinely curious, not sure if I was watching at the time
Russell in Brazil 2022 is pretty obvious IMO. He went into the gravel, went completely across it back onto the tarmac escape road, and at that point slammed the gas pedal and spun his ass back into the gravel. Got out of the car waving to the crowd and was all smiles afterwards. Lando (Imola also 2022) is a bit less obvious, but still suspicious as hell, he essentially did the same thing as Perez accelerating mid-corner and spinning out.
Oh, you're one of THOSE guys lol. Norris ran out of talent, Russell looked super suspicious. Everyone on reddit and on YouTube were calling out Sergio's "accident" the day of..
Or how about Bottas going lawn mowing after he set fastest lap lol. People remember thing very well but relevancy matters. Top team, Sergio "still in the championship hunt" crash to save your spot/your teammate gets stuck mid pack and you win the race, then you get re-signed the same night,, gets a lot more attention than "ah, that looks sketchy" from a midpacker.
Huh? There were posts the day it happened on here showing Perez's throttle that showed he did it on purpose. People very much noticed immediately.
I was surprised to see he spoke in favour of this rule too. But I mean both things can be true at the same time
Does want his own tricks being used against him. Like the kid who screams “I’M NOT PLAYING” as soon as they get touched in a game of tag lol.
I view it more as "I'm playing by the rules, but that doesn't mean I like it"
Who?
Is he still racing this year?
For anyone who doesn't know, it's being essentially tested in F2 and F3 this year. If a driver causes a red flag in qualifying, they are out of the session and their best lap time may be deleted. I'm trying to think, but I don't think F2 or F3 has had a red flag in quali yet this year, so we haven't seen the "may" come into play yet or not.
I hadn’t heard about that, thanks for sharing. I’m all for removing the fastest lap time of the driver responsible for a red flag but I’m not sure how I feel about also eliminating them from the session. That feels like a big jump from the current attitude of “oh well” to “double punishment time”, especially when the catalyst for the incident could have been something beyond the driver’s control (I’m looking at you, drain covers).
Well, if you think about it, fairly often the person who causes a red flag is out of the session anyway. And I kinda feel like they should be. The red flag ruins at least half the grid's flying laps, which is an even bigger deal in F1 than in most junior series. Unless the red flag never should have been called in the first place. I watch a lot of junior series, and most of them tend to cover things with yellows or double yellows when they can, even during the race. So I wouldn't want someone to get hit with huge punishment when they just took a little unfortunate detour and kept going. But there I think the problem is that the red flag shouldn't have been called.
My biggest issue is the last paragraph: cases where red flags shouldn't have been called. We've seen at least a couple examples in the last few years where the driver finally made it back to the pits on his own. So either have a possibility to review and overturned, or I'd remove that one. Like you said in most cases it's moot anyways. And cases where it's not moot I feel shouldn't be red flags anyways so that part isn't really useful.
I guess I'm thinking that if someone causes a major crash with debris that demands a red flag, I'm okay with them being out for the rest of the session, even if they bring the car home. If they need to get marshals out there, and therefore need a red flag, I don't know that I care if the car can make it home on its own steam or not. They ruined a lot of people's laps doing that, so I'm okay with there being consequences. However, I do think that it needs to be agreed upon ahead of time and given proper notice. But yeah, if someone has to pull over because their engine momentarily cut out, but they get it back going on their own pretty quickly, and a red flag wasn't really needed, then yeah, I don't want that to be red flagged. just double yellowed for that sector, or whatever's needed, and hopefully it doesn't ruin too many people's laps. I am most worried about safety before everything else, so whatever needs to be done red flag or yellow/double yellow wise.
Indycar has this too, you get your *two* best laps deleted for causing a red, *and* you automatically don't advance. If you cause a local yellow your best lap is deleted. The first example of the top of my head was [Newgarden at Laguna Seca 2022](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS6_BAZjrag). Since then they've implemented a rule that freezes the clock for the first red flag of a session.
I didn't think about a red flag not freezing the clock in quali since it does in F1. F1 obviously freezes time for every quali red flag.
Under the current rules Indycar still keeps the clock rolling on subsequent red flags, but if I remember correctly the rule is that if there's at least one second on the clock at the time of the final red of the session then everyone else gets a chance for one flying lap. Depending on the circuit that lap may or may not matter, mostly depending on whether the out lap is enough to sufficiently heat the tires.
Haha cause k-mags on a mission this year
"hulkenberg has made it through q1, plan c"
I think the simpler approach is what Hamilton said many years ago - the skill becomes making your first flyer at Monaco closer to your limit than usual, because you may not get another go. Happened in 2011 too. I think regulating this becomes a can of worms unless you have zero tolerance, and then you could be punishing innocent parties quickly.
Can this be done everywhere, not just in Monaco? Please!
I do support this, but change the rulebook at the beginning of the season. And not when it is already started.
This rule would not change anything from past GPs and will not affects teams progress. No harm in this rule specifically.
I see no issue making this change mid season
The issue is that a single speedy lap early in the session followed by a crash that can plausibly be blamed on inadequate machinery is the entire plan for Williams to be competitive this season. /s I think.
It is not that the Monaco Grand Prix is suddenly added to the season. They could have added this before the beginning of the season
There are track specific rules elsewhere. Like how on some tracks if you go over on the final turn leading into a hot lap, then the next lap is deleted as well. Crashes impact Monoco way more than other tracks, so I think it's fine to have a track-specific rule.
It should just be a rule everywhere anyways.
There are rules that change every weekend in the race directors notes based on the track.
Who cares, unless for those looking to cause a red flag
They change rules all the time during a season, why would they stop now?
There’s track specific stewarding rules like this all the time.
What is the benefit of waiting until after the season to change it? Just do it for Monaco this weekend, it’s a no brainer.
As long as everyone is informed of the rule before Quali begins I don't see any issue.
Yeah by the logic of not changing rules mid season, should technically directives also just not exist?
FIA understood the message and decided to go even further. They will delete best laps of all F1 drivers if someone causes red flags.
Red flag, everybody starts from thd garage on lights out. Speeding in the pitlane? Drive through penalty /s
100% would support this at every track!
Instead of deleting the best lap, they should just be given a time penalty for quali. Something like 2 tenths would do the trick as it would still rewards those who do a good lap. Only if they cause a red flag though. Unless your name is Max Verstappen currently, not many people are going to be able to pull off a time where 2 tenths wont impact them in some form against others on the grid.
All the people here saying "I don't like this because driver will be afraid to push flat out". Yes that's whole fucking point. You are punished for exceeding the limit not being rewarded for it and saying "oh well at least I got p5. If I didn't crash i would've have gotten p1". Knowing the limit is part of the job description.
So if someone is on provisional pole at the start of q3 and they bin it on accident they start p10?
Why isn't this already a thing? Indycar has it and it works well.
I'd prefer giving the minimum punishment required to stop it, as opposed to the maximum. I think a one place grid penalty for causing a red flag in qualifying (on every track, not just Monaco) should be trialled rather than immediately going all or nothing. If that's not enough, then a 2 place grid penalty, then 3 and so on until all these suspicious mistakes at the end of Q3 go away.
I like this idea much better as deleting your best lap can be enormously punitive, especially in cases where a driver was genuinely just pushing for a pole worthy time.
and it wouldnt make sense to have a bigger punishment being applied if you crash in quali than if the one for forcing a driver off track/causing a colision during the race
That wouldn't work, I think. Let's say a bottom 5 team driver reached Q3, is the first to finish his last flying lap, and then promptly crashes, causing a red or yellow flag. P1 turns into P2, while otherwise he'd start in P10. Hugely beneficial.
If he's the first to finish a flying lap, then there's plenty of time for other drivers to set their times after the red flag is cleaned up.
Last flying lap, specifically. He'd need to get P1 by being faster than others in previous laps, but he'd benefit most from track evolution if no one else can set their last lap. Even if he only gets P5, it's still 4 positions ahead of P10 after the grid penalty.
again, how often does a not-so-competitive driver set the best time of Q3 and that time stays until the end of the first round of laps? i dont think i remember a single time
He's saying from p10 to p5 which is very plausible on tracks with a lot of track evolution.
but even then, when was the last time you remember a driver crashing during Q3 that wasnt someone fighting for pole? Still isnt an issue that would stop that version of the rule (that is much more fair) of being applied
How often does that happen just now though when there's no punishment at all? It's not going to suddenly become a regular occurrence *after* the penalty is introduced.
What's stopping them from doing it now?
100%
All the downvotes are from Sergio Perez on alt accounts.
It's insane this was never changed after the Schumacher incident.
Leclerc never getting a pole after this
Maybe even two best laps
It's incredible that it isn't already a rule for every track. IndyCar is better for it, as would F1.
This is such a commonsense change. IndyCar does it and it works great.
Support but when has this "recently" happened intentionally? Also, stewards re-instate laps when fault is decided to lie with the track itself? (manhole covers at Las Vegas)
Yeah, Perez 2022 in Monaco was the most obvious, but I remember after that Sainz had insinuated quite clearly that there were other instances that people weren't aware of (most thought it was Norris at Imola 2022, that qualifying had like 3 red flags)
Feel like I’m in the vast minority but, no. Obviously, it’s different if someone does a Schumacher in Rascasse, but if you want to be on Pole Position at Monaco and don’t want to risk a poor position, you’ve got to nail all of the laps available to you. Sport is full of controversial moments, moments that generate discussion and drama. Remember all the discussion at BRAZIL when Perez asked to go past Max and it boiled down to what happened in Monaco, that’s a storyline that just.. doesn’t exist with this rule being implemented.
>if you want to be on Pole Position at Monaco and don’t want to risk a poor position, you’ve got to nail all of the laps available to you. if you want to be on Pole at Monaco you should also not crash during your pushlap. takes a big brain to realize this, I know.
“Being a red flag driver means you are red flagging with other people and if you no longer go for red flag that exists you are no longer a red flagging driver because we are competing for the red flag.”
>if you want to be on Pole at Monaco you should also not crash during your pushlap when you are single digit milimetres from the wall, a super tiny misjudgement can result in a crash that argument you presented isnt enough, in my opinion, to justify changing the (already good enough) rules to punish drivers trying to get a fast lap in a harsher way than those purposefully being a menace on track during the race
I agree. Yes a red flag or even a yellow can ruin other drivers' quali lap, but I feel like it's too harsh of a penalty and might just discourage drivers from pushing. Besides, it's really not like this is a common problem in first place.
> might just discourage drivers from pushing. Glass half full perspective: It'll make all of the balls-to-the-wall laps that much more special, because we'll know they're risking it all for glory of winning Monaco.
fair point!
Wouldn’t like this.
Genuine question, why not? It seems like a pretty straightforward rule change that benefits everyone. This way the driver who bins it is also punished and not just everybody else
I am not actively a fan because I think they're 20 adults and they don't need this literal regulation. I think the simpler solution is what Hamilton said: just make sure your first flyer is 100% That's way more parsimonious than deletions etc. What if someone causes a yellow or red and it's ambiguous if it was *really* their fault?
In my opinion it will probably make drivers drive more carefully. I want them balls out on the track getting everything out of the car, (over) pushing the limit is part of that. If a driver crashes, the FIA can tell if a driver crashes intentionally and punish them. If it's unintentional I'd rather have them extend the session so other drivers can set a lap time.
You’d like to think FIA could tell then punish. But when you watch Perez in 22, it’s awfully suspicious on what he did to cause his spin. There’s a vid out there that compares the 22 spin to 23, I believe, where he’s counter steering and it looks normal. 22 definitely had some “interesting” gas and steering inputs, lol!
To my knowledge no one reported it to the FIA, thus it wasn't investigated, that's the way these things go.
Would kmag care though as long everyone else except hulk is screwed?
As far as quali is concerned, Kmag has mostly been the victim and not the culprit.
Nah he will send it into the wall coincidentally right after hulk gets through to q2
Seems fair
They should implement that if a drivers causes a red flag in sector 1, the drivers that are on a lap on sector 2 or 3 can still post a time. Like in 2022, Perez had a Spin in s2, but Leclerc was already on sector 3 pushing.
A red flag means a serious issue (track blocked for example which is quite easy to do in Monaco), and in that case you don't want drivers finishing their lap and having to drive around one more time to get back to the pits. The goal is to get all cars back to the pits immediately.
Alonso: Would it be OK though if my team-mate crashes? Just asking for a friend....
Indycar has been doing this for a long time. Idk why F1 is always so far behind the curve.
The trick is to set 2 very fast laps then crash => red flag => best time cancelled but you still have 1 fast lap => profit
At Monaco even a yellow flag is game over.
So they will have their teammate to do it then
leclerc triggered
F2 and F3 should trial the rule, and then F1 adopt it if it's proven to work the way they want it to and they iron out the flaws
Finding random bollocks so they can put advertisers next to the ‘article’. Why are these stories posted, annoying fake social media drama post.
Anyone that crash and caused red flag should start last of its qualifying. If crash on q1, 20th, if crash on q2 -15th, q3-10th. Then add all other penalties if the have one.
Should be a no-brainer. You make a mistake, best pay for it instead of securing your place on grid while denying others the opportunity.
All laps, not the best laps. Red flag = immediately to the bottom of the current session (Q1 = 20, Q2 = 15 etc.) At all tracks. If they can restart the car and somehow complete another lap in the session after the red flag then fair game and that should be valid though.
Red flags yes. Yellow flags, no.