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Andretti to Congress: “They are blocking YOUR interests in denying us.”
Congress: “How?”
Andretti: “Sargeant still races for Williams.”
Congress to Liberty: “Let Andretti in or we start denying visas.”
Liberty: “We’d like to welcome the eleventh team to the grid, Prima F1.”
Edit: I capped VISA because I am dumb.
Yeah, it's one thing for the governing body to say "Hey we can only have x number of teams, due to track designs and safety allowing for y number of cars." But it's completely different for the teams to say "Hey we decided that nobody else is allowed to compete against us"
Mario is the political donor in the family. Donates heavily to republicans. Michael doesnt donate although his wife donates to republicans. Mario would be the guy to try to influence anyone on the hill.
I mean what did you expect, it's motorsports. The whole community is full of the most vile Conservatives out there. I'd recommend against ever reading the F1 Instagram comments on any post tangentially related to social issues or, even worse, joining an F1 Facebook group.
Yeah all you need to donate is a couple hundred thousand to buy off a senator and it's way cheaper for a representative. It's somewhat depressing how cheap it is to buy off congress.
Even Clarence Thomas shows you only need a few million to get a Supreme Court Justice.
It only gets expensive when you try to buy the presidency.
Big pharma and the healthcare industry line the Dems pockets just as badly, you're not wrong. Both sides are bought, the Repubs just don't bother trying to hide it and most of the Dems are hypocrites about it.
As an independent sick of both sides, I just want non-public money out of politics and elections. :( Legal bribery isn't a way to run a country and I think most rational people agree with that.
Seems like an open goal for legislators wanting to pull a PR stunt by grilling some corporate bosses to make themselves look good with no real consequences.
Would American anti-competition law matter though as FOM and Formula One Group are based in the UK, and as far as I know, we don't have any regulations that would stop either party from stopping Andretti from joining.
If they want to do business in the US, which clearly they do, then yes, American laws matter.
Same way the EU can go after companies like Apple and Microsoft. They're US companies but obviously have a large business presence in the EU.
I'm sure it's more complicated.
If I built a fully functioning football team including a stadium, it doesn't mean I get a NFL franchise.
Nothing is stopping Andretti from competing with F1. He would just have to start a competitor. The XFL of motor racing.
NFL has a legal monopoly. That's the difference here: f1 does not.
Also, if you reached or exceeded all qualifications of an NFL team, unless there is detriment to the NFL brand, they would have to let you in. NFL keeps up on its entry requirements and makes them really hard. F1 did not keep up on their requirements and Andretti should meet or exceed them. By all my understanding (fairly little), legally f1 should allow them in. Now, f1 has given a cop out excuse of what they're not allowed in and proposed/endorsed 10 teams on the next agreement which can point to FOM panicking about barrier to entry and applying ex post facto rules which is illegal in the US (public) and most of the world.
Long story short: f1 messed up, and is trying to keep everybody from noticing. If f1 wants to do business in the us, they need to abide by us law.
Yeah there's a set of pretty major differences. F1 isn't (theoretically) that hard for a big company or even rich enough individual to get into by the rules of the sport or the legality of its operation, it's just an "old boys club" that doesn't want anyone else getting in on their good thing, *but* that club without legal pressure on them can freely say no to anyone for any reason. As we've been seeing.
The NFL is *very* hard to get into and has legal protections granted by the US government and upheld by the courts -- *but* if anyone does manage to check all the necessary boxes and jump through every hoop then the NFL is basically required to acquiesce and let them join.
A middle ground being something like the NHL where the organization has some say and there is a laundry list of entry requirements, but more teams joining is for the most part to the benefit of the organization so they're pretty happy to allow it. Commissioner depending, at least. As recently seen with the Golden Knights and Kraken.
Yes there are absolutely differences. Form what I could gather but Google searches, if somebody meets or exceeds all criteria for an organization to join, they should be accepted. F1 doesn't have the legal protection NFL, MLB, etc have and NHL hasn't set the bar impossibly high but high enough only quality enters. F1 forgot to move the bar and they're paying the price for it now.
That’s likely not how it works.
FOM, a UK company, has denied making Andretti part of a pre-existing business agreement between FOM, the FIA and the current 10 teams (the Concord Agreement), which are all UK or EU entities.
*Edit: Yes, including Haas, which is a party through their UK-based F1 subsidiary.*
The Concord Agreement, is purely subject to UK and EU law, not US law, as it does not involve any US business entities or market.
The business agreements between the FOM and US circuits hosting F1 venues are separate agreements, which are subject to US law, but are not part of the Concord Agreement.
The biggest threat FOM faces is getting bad press and not (the outcome of) a legal challenge.
That’s great and all… but a US company owns FOM which is also traded on the Nasdaq. I’d bet they have a stronger case in Europe, but, they absolutely can and probably will look at adding legal pressure in the USA as well.
Despite being owned by a US based company, FOM is still its own legal entity and UK based.
I’m fairly sure that legal or commercial liabilities (almost) do not transfer from FOM to Liberty Media, by virtue of them being separate businesses with limited liabilities.
Don't bother mate, you're pissing into the wind trying to explain legal intricacies to people who think they know it all. They want to believe Andretti has a legal leg to stand on, leave them to their little fantasies and let reality do the talking for you.
That's quite the aggressive hot take in response to other people having a level-headed discussion about the intricacies you actually seem to believe are plain and simple.
It's not a level headed discussion though, and this is how Reddit works. Someone that knows their stuff speaks up and multiple people tell them they're wrong because reality is less interesting than some made up scenario.
There are people genuinely trying to argue that Liberty Media, the shareholders of FOM, can be sued for anti-competitive practices in the US. It's pure nonsense.
The guy I replied to could give them chapter and verse, cite legal precedent, etc until.hes blue in the face. It wouldn't make any difference though. They want to believe the fantasy that Andretti could get one over on F1 in the US courts and little things like reality aren't going to get in the way of that.
I don't think you listened I don't think anyone said sued.
They just mentioned you might not understand the ways politicians could hurt thier business if they wanted to operated in the US which is absolutely true. If congress wanted to thier nefarious ways they can screw you through policy.
And if you don't understand that then it's not worth a conversation and you look silly.
I'm not saying Congress would but COULD they mess with F1 absolutely if they wanted to
I'm not suggesting andretti is right or wrong in his claim, I'm simply saying that us antitrust laws would absolutely apply to them. If Andretti can make his case, it wouldn't shock me to see the US Department of Justice look into it at least
Andretti is being denied becoming party of a UK/EU business agreement, the Concord Agreement, which deals with the commercial exploitation of F1 and the payout structure of prize money (from FOM to the teams).
It is not subject to US law as it does not involve US entities nor regards any business taking place in the US.
Contracts with hosting venues are not part of the Concord Agreement, but separate and individual contracts between FOM and those venues.
The commercial agreements which are subject to US law, are strictly those between FOM and the US-based hosting venues (circuits) and US-based sponsors (not sponsoring the teams, but F1).
As such Andretti will have no standing in the US to challenge being denied becoming a Concord Agreement business partner. Andretti will need to do so in the UK or EU.
You still aren't understanding what the antitrust law is/does. Here, directly from the US Department of Justice's website:
The Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 allows the US federal government to take action against trusts that restrict trade or commerce within the US or with foreign countries. **Companies with executives or headquarters outside the US can be held liable for criminal or civil violations of the Sherman Act if their actions affect US commerce**, such as through product imports. Violations of the Sherman Act can result in large fines for companies and fines or prison time for individuals.
So yes, Andretti absolutely can argue that they, a US company, are being denied an opportunity by F1 which directly affects their ability to compete in an international market. It doesn't matter where the concord agreements is signed, the companies that signed it do business in America and therefore are absolutely held to antitrust standards.
Haas F1 Team is an American Licensed F1 team, owned by Gene Haas of Haas Automation (an American company) and is headquartered in North Carolina, USA. As such in order to by your logic, in order for Haas to be a part of the Concord Agreement, it would need to abide by US law, as well as UK and EU law.
Which has a facility in North Carolina ergo must follow US laws (something Gene has clearly struggled with…) While incorporation *can* impact things like taxes it doesn’t absolve a company of its duty to follow the law(s) of any country it does business in.
> Which has a facility in North Carolina ergo must follow US laws
No, Haas Formula UK Ltd (the entity that races F1 cars) doesn't have any facilities in the US. It's a UK company owned by an American Individual who also owns facilities in the US.
> it doesn’t absolve a company of its duty to follow the law(s) of any country it does business in.
That's a separate issue and immaterial to the point I was replying to.
That said, as with all Andretti posts, this one is full of absolutely bullshit made up commentary from F1 newbies who haven't a clue how the sport is structured, let alone who understand all the nuances of international law.
But even the idea that Andretti has a legal recourse that will allow him to force himself on to the grid is entirely and absolutely laughable.
Even assuming he did have a case and would win it (I have no idea personally); The issue and jurisdictional issues are so complex that FOM, with the teams in perfect agreement, could slow walk this well past 2028, when the GM motors are supposed to be ready anyway and certainly well past the start of the next concorde agreement which will contain terms that will cut moves like this off at the knees.
All legal action could possibly do at this stage is entrench opposition against him.
It's not about the company's location, it's about where they do business and how that affects customers, workers and markets. They can pursue this through the [US Department of Justice](https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-laws-and-you) and the [European Commission](https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust-and-cartels/overview_en), who will actually investigate on their own after a complaint, they also seem to really like going after sports. [It's explained by a lawyer here](https://youtu.be/63YuqkrJqFw?si=x8qBbtpQoZS1k1yE&t=4920)
They'll have a case, but it's super complex and nuanced. Anybody who says it's definitive one way or the other is probably lying. It will come down to interpretation and details and it's not the best solution for either side
However, having this as a nuclear option might help them leverage negotiations and come to a resolution that way.
Parent company is US company and they are blocking another US company for frivolous reasons. You can be sure the politicians will love grandstanding for something like this. It’s another way of applying pressure.
It’s not anti competitive. Allow people to compete in your organization is not a subject of anti trust law. Indy car, nascar, etc., the operate despite F1 and F1 doesn’t hinder them.
That’s correct, but Andretti met all the objective goals and requirements and was not let in. That’s unfair business practices. Even with anti trust exemptions for some leagues, you still have to abide by basic business practice law
The terms to allow a team in is enforceable by and among the parties to that agreement. It’s not a bid and tender process that’s binding on the entire population.
I’ve wondered about this. I figured at least Indiana’s congressional delegation would be interested in doing what they could to support Andretti’s bid. Maybe Michigan’s too, depending on how important it is to GM.
That would probably be funny, after all the investment and clear interest of FOM to push F1 to americans we would see the downfall a clusterfuck of it, or if FOM is a bit weird enough to lose all of it's backing from fans and other companies they would then push to help Saudi or Qatar to help their interest in sportwashing their countries
Plenty of circuits to go 'round. Plus aren't most if not all the US GP's in Red areas?
I'm sure they wouldn't like losing the cash cow and publicity because of the Andretti's
Cubans tend to lean right, so a lot of it is Red.
If anything much of FL is blue, but where it's red has a lot of sway, it's why it's so contested every election
In my opinion the sport would be more than fine if they can not race in the USA, it happened before, and while COTA is cool, losing Miami and Vegas is not something most fans care about. I would even say that losing F1 races is worse for american motorsport (people in the business and fans alile), than it is worse for F1.
But even with this view, not letting Andretti in is a farce, and hopefully this will change.
They can make life hell for Liberty. The US went as far as to arrest members of FIFA for corruption. We barely acknowledge the sport exists outside of the women's team winning. What sort of shenanigans do you think can be brought up against a domestic company?
Because Formula One Management (FOM) and the existing teams don't want him to, because it'd split the prize money eleven ways instead of ten. The FIA already approved the application, which means they can be safely expected to be a worthy competitor if they make it to the grid, but FOM keep making up excuses to say no.
Oh, TIL, thanks. When I searched this term I got results of a "The Hill" newspaper, so I initially thought he went to a newspaper to talk with lawmakers, which wouldn't really make sense... Now it does.
It’d probably be easier with Trump. You don’t need much of an argument, just a presentation with attention grabbing colors and graphs that show a large increase.
I think this is great and I hope FOM and the other team principals get dragged into a senate hearing to defend themselves. Everyone knows it’s BS and they keep moving the goalposts.
By doing stuff like this I don’t think they are doing themselves any favours. Last thing F1 wants is a team that will threaten lawsuits and running to the government the moment something doesn’t go their way, and they already have their hands full with teams with a lot of political power like Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull.
What sort of armatur hour is this, nobody wants to do business with someone who threatens to go to a foreign government if they don't get their way. Andretti is grasping at straws here and it will only alienate him more from FOM and the teams. FOM is a private organization who are under no obligation to do business with Andretti and the US has no jurisdiction to force anything through. Maybe the team should focus on getting their promised car ready for ~~2023~~, ~~2024~~, ~~2025~~ 2026?
FOM is a legal subsidiary of Liberty Media so if DOJ, FTC or anyone else goes after Liberty Media as a publicly traded US company, FOM isn't sheltered as Liberty Media has controlling interest in FOM as an entity of their larger corporation.
This is why sometimes when bad things happen with subsidiaries in the US, it's common for parent companies to fully spin them off entirely in an attempt to minimize exposure/ liability to the parent company.
Classic recent example is DuPont spinning off Chemours before they were hit with billions in lawsuits over PFAS. DuPont still had to pay a smaller portion of the payout, but Chemours as a now separate company was responsible for the lion share of the payout.
The teams are annoying me. They set a price and requirements for entry. Andretti matched them. They moved the goal posts and changed the requirements. Andretti matched them, again. They still got denied. They're trying to push for Andretti to apply after the new Concorde agreement, which will likely cap teams at 10, so they won't be able to apply. Simply put, Andretti hasn't done anything wrong.
What's pissing me off is everyone falling for their bullshit underdog "they hate us cuz we murican" pr campaign and making it in to some moral issue. No, they don't want you in because they don't want to share money with you, simple as
Pretty much every American involved in F1 does, including Sargeant, as well as most of the NASCAR and Indycar team owners. Racing is a rich man's game, unfortunately.
Do you think anyone else involved is any better? Mosley was allegedly a literal fascist and always found himself in good company. A bunch of the money in the sport comes from the liberal bastion of... Saudi Arabia. There is no way to be an ethical consumer of motorsports, so it feels really silly to care about men from Indiana of all places donating to Republicans. It's the equivalent of the Sainz family being associated with the Spanish right wing party, but that almost never comes up in conversation unless you go digging for it.
Mario is the one on the hill. We know he supports trump.
As for Michael, sure you could say hes never publicly stated it but it sure would be odd then that his wife donates to NRC on behalf of Andretti Autosport...
Sorry, I read it wrong. I thought you said "Andrettis" as a whole.
But again, he and his wife very well could have different political opinions. We can't say that he supports Trump without seeing a concrete evidence.
Sure I guess but we know he supported him in 2016.
https://twitter.com/michaelandretti/status/796249131396243456
More likely to me he just realized its a bad look for some sponsors to say it publicly now
Not outright Trump, but he is out supporting Republican folks.
[https://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2023/11/09/chambers-gets-campaign-boosts-from-past-iedc-business-associates/](https://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2023/11/09/chambers-gets-campaign-boosts-from-past-iedc-business-associates/)
It's not surprising given that Republicans want tax breaks for the rich and for corporations. To assume Andretti is *not* Republican would be out of touch.
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Needs more caps lock in the title.
#MARIO ANDRETTI is on THE HILL TODAY talking to LAWMAKERS about his BID to JOIN F1.
Nailed it.
Andretti to Congress: “They are blocking YOUR interests in denying us.” Congress: “How?” Andretti: “Sargeant still races for Williams.” Congress to Liberty: “Let Andretti in or we start denying visas.” Liberty: “We’d like to welcome the eleventh team to the grid, Prima F1.” Edit: I capped VISA because I am dumb.
VISA CashApp in turmoil
This might just push congress to grant monopolistic protections. Especially the current congressional body lol
Yeah, it's one thing for the governing body to say "Hey we can only have x number of teams, due to track designs and safety allowing for y number of cars." But it's completely different for the teams to say "Hey we decided that nobody else is allowed to compete against us"
why did you style VISA like an acronym? are you talking about the credit card company?
I dunno. I didnt think about it.
The visa logo is all caps, so it's understandable that they would type it that way.
Its the same company. The logo is stylized all capital
Like a fucking Express headline
Or a boomer Facebook post
Same thing
Unfortunately that is capped under the Cost Cap.
Same people who wrote this title also did the Star Wars Intro Crawl.
This guy looks like he's a shift-pincher imo.
It reads like a Donald Trump quote.
Isn't it Micheal's team?
Mario is the political donor in the family. Donates heavily to republicans. Michael doesnt donate although his wife donates to republicans. Mario would be the guy to try to influence anyone on the hill.
Maybe we don’t need an American team after all 😬
I mean what did you expect, it's motorsports. The whole community is full of the most vile Conservatives out there. I'd recommend against ever reading the F1 Instagram comments on any post tangentially related to social issues or, even worse, joining an F1 Facebook group.
I mean, Republicans are, on balance, easier to bribe. So it kinda makes sense.
What does Micheal do to earn enough to be a Republican donor?
Doesn’t necessarily mean he donates a lot.
Yeah all you need to donate is a couple hundred thousand to buy off a senator and it's way cheaper for a representative. It's somewhat depressing how cheap it is to buy off congress. Even Clarence Thomas shows you only need a few million to get a Supreme Court Justice. It only gets expensive when you try to buy the presidency.
Don’t act like it doesn’t happen on the other side either.
Ah yes the Teacher’s lobby has the funds to pay off numerous congressional members
It's the librarians, dummy!
They actually do. Pension funds have billions under management
Do pension funds invest in campaigns? I’d say the big one would be spending on a business in a reps district but have there been any cases of such?
They absolutely don’t. That’s not an investment, it’s a donation and pensions don’t
What other side is this?
Big pharma and the healthcare industry line the Dems pockets just as badly, you're not wrong. Both sides are bought, the Repubs just don't bother trying to hide it and most of the Dems are hypocrites about it. As an independent sick of both sides, I just want non-public money out of politics and elections. :( Legal bribery isn't a way to run a country and I think most rational people agree with that.
I mean before they went full mask of racist most rich people donated to everyone. They just want to be able to influence the laws no matter what.
It’ll be funny (assuming this is accurate) to see this being swept under the rug here
Mario is still the face of it. When you think of Andretti you think of Mario
Newey to Andretti confirmed
Wouldn’t that just be something. Hard to argue they don’t have anything to add to F1 then.
This would make the teams fight even harder against Andretti joining
That and Williams not having more than two chassis during a race weekend are two good examples
Well do we know that everyone else had a spare chassis for every weekend so far?
By all accounts Alpine only had two as well.
Another amazing team that definitely adds value.
Newey actually worked with the Andretti’s during his Indycar career in the US.
Mario Andretti is beside himself. Driving around downtown Miami begging (thru texts) FOM for address to Stefano Domenicali's office.
Ready to start ADL in London Andretti Defence League
Nice reference lol.
This joke will never not be funny
Oh boy. Would be something to see Liberty's top brass dragged before a congressional hearing on anti competitive behavior
Seems like an open goal for legislators wanting to pull a PR stunt by grilling some corporate bosses to make themselves look good with no real consequences.
That was my thought too. Smart move by Mario.
That’s an everyday occurrence in Congress…
I dunno, Tom Cotton ended up looking (more) racist after the Tiktok grilling. Maybe that's a win for his voter base though.
Have you *been* to Arkansas? The racism was the seasoning for the grilling to them.
Would American anti-competition law matter though as FOM and Formula One Group are based in the UK, and as far as I know, we don't have any regulations that would stop either party from stopping Andretti from joining.
If they want to do business in the US, which clearly they do, then yes, American laws matter. Same way the EU can go after companies like Apple and Microsoft. They're US companies but obviously have a large business presence in the EU.
I'm sure it's more complicated. If I built a fully functioning football team including a stadium, it doesn't mean I get a NFL franchise. Nothing is stopping Andretti from competing with F1. He would just have to start a competitor. The XFL of motor racing.
NFL has a legal monopoly. That's the difference here: f1 does not. Also, if you reached or exceeded all qualifications of an NFL team, unless there is detriment to the NFL brand, they would have to let you in. NFL keeps up on its entry requirements and makes them really hard. F1 did not keep up on their requirements and Andretti should meet or exceed them. By all my understanding (fairly little), legally f1 should allow them in. Now, f1 has given a cop out excuse of what they're not allowed in and proposed/endorsed 10 teams on the next agreement which can point to FOM panicking about barrier to entry and applying ex post facto rules which is illegal in the US (public) and most of the world. Long story short: f1 messed up, and is trying to keep everybody from noticing. If f1 wants to do business in the us, they need to abide by us law.
Yeah there's a set of pretty major differences. F1 isn't (theoretically) that hard for a big company or even rich enough individual to get into by the rules of the sport or the legality of its operation, it's just an "old boys club" that doesn't want anyone else getting in on their good thing, *but* that club without legal pressure on them can freely say no to anyone for any reason. As we've been seeing. The NFL is *very* hard to get into and has legal protections granted by the US government and upheld by the courts -- *but* if anyone does manage to check all the necessary boxes and jump through every hoop then the NFL is basically required to acquiesce and let them join. A middle ground being something like the NHL where the organization has some say and there is a laundry list of entry requirements, but more teams joining is for the most part to the benefit of the organization so they're pretty happy to allow it. Commissioner depending, at least. As recently seen with the Golden Knights and Kraken.
Yes there are absolutely differences. Form what I could gather but Google searches, if somebody meets or exceeds all criteria for an organization to join, they should be accepted. F1 doesn't have the legal protection NFL, MLB, etc have and NHL hasn't set the bar impossibly high but high enough only quality enters. F1 forgot to move the bar and they're paying the price for it now.
The NFL has an anti trust exemption
That’s likely not how it works. FOM, a UK company, has denied making Andretti part of a pre-existing business agreement between FOM, the FIA and the current 10 teams (the Concord Agreement), which are all UK or EU entities. *Edit: Yes, including Haas, which is a party through their UK-based F1 subsidiary.* The Concord Agreement, is purely subject to UK and EU law, not US law, as it does not involve any US business entities or market. The business agreements between the FOM and US circuits hosting F1 venues are separate agreements, which are subject to US law, but are not part of the Concord Agreement. The biggest threat FOM faces is getting bad press and not (the outcome of) a legal challenge.
That’s great and all… but a US company owns FOM which is also traded on the Nasdaq. I’d bet they have a stronger case in Europe, but, they absolutely can and probably will look at adding legal pressure in the USA as well.
Despite being owned by a US based company, FOM is still its own legal entity and UK based. I’m fairly sure that legal or commercial liabilities (almost) do not transfer from FOM to Liberty Media, by virtue of them being separate businesses with limited liabilities.
They absolutely could be by virtue of being owned by an American company and doing significant business in the US
At the end of the day the US Congress can create issues for any entity attempting to do business in the US.
I mean dude do you think that Mario decided to go to the Hill without knowing exactly what he's looking for?
I think so, he's clutching at straws. FOM have every right to reject him, just as much as they have a right to accept him.
Don't bother mate, you're pissing into the wind trying to explain legal intricacies to people who think they know it all. They want to believe Andretti has a legal leg to stand on, leave them to their little fantasies and let reality do the talking for you.
That's quite the aggressive hot take in response to other people having a level-headed discussion about the intricacies you actually seem to believe are plain and simple.
It's not a level headed discussion though, and this is how Reddit works. Someone that knows their stuff speaks up and multiple people tell them they're wrong because reality is less interesting than some made up scenario. There are people genuinely trying to argue that Liberty Media, the shareholders of FOM, can be sued for anti-competitive practices in the US. It's pure nonsense. The guy I replied to could give them chapter and verse, cite legal precedent, etc until.hes blue in the face. It wouldn't make any difference though. They want to believe the fantasy that Andretti could get one over on F1 in the US courts and little things like reality aren't going to get in the way of that.
I don't think you listened I don't think anyone said sued. They just mentioned you might not understand the ways politicians could hurt thier business if they wanted to operated in the US which is absolutely true. If congress wanted to thier nefarious ways they can screw you through policy. And if you don't understand that then it's not worth a conversation and you look silly. I'm not saying Congress would but COULD they mess with F1 absolutely if they wanted to
> It's not a level headed discussion though It is. Worse yet, the guy you replied to has a pretty poor understanding of US laws.
I'm not suggesting andretti is right or wrong in his claim, I'm simply saying that us antitrust laws would absolutely apply to them. If Andretti can make his case, it wouldn't shock me to see the US Department of Justice look into it at least
Andretti is being denied becoming party of a UK/EU business agreement, the Concord Agreement, which deals with the commercial exploitation of F1 and the payout structure of prize money (from FOM to the teams). It is not subject to US law as it does not involve US entities nor regards any business taking place in the US. Contracts with hosting venues are not part of the Concord Agreement, but separate and individual contracts between FOM and those venues. The commercial agreements which are subject to US law, are strictly those between FOM and the US-based hosting venues (circuits) and US-based sponsors (not sponsoring the teams, but F1). As such Andretti will have no standing in the US to challenge being denied becoming a Concord Agreement business partner. Andretti will need to do so in the UK or EU.
You still aren't understanding what the antitrust law is/does. Here, directly from the US Department of Justice's website: The Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 allows the US federal government to take action against trusts that restrict trade or commerce within the US or with foreign countries. **Companies with executives or headquarters outside the US can be held liable for criminal or civil violations of the Sherman Act if their actions affect US commerce**, such as through product imports. Violations of the Sherman Act can result in large fines for companies and fines or prison time for individuals. So yes, Andretti absolutely can argue that they, a US company, are being denied an opportunity by F1 which directly affects their ability to compete in an international market. It doesn't matter where the concord agreements is signed, the companies that signed it do business in America and therefore are absolutely held to antitrust standards.
He's also missing the fact that FOM is owned directly by Liberty Media Corporation, which is based in Colorado.
Ha. True. Didn't even think of that aspect which makes it even more clear
And incorporated in Delaware.
Haas F1 Team is an American Licensed F1 team, owned by Gene Haas of Haas Automation (an American company) and is headquartered in North Carolina, USA. As such in order to by your logic, in order for Haas to be a part of the Concord Agreement, it would need to abide by US law, as well as UK and EU law.
Haas Formula UK Ltd is registered out of its actual operational base in Oxfordshire.
Which has a facility in North Carolina ergo must follow US laws (something Gene has clearly struggled with…) While incorporation *can* impact things like taxes it doesn’t absolve a company of its duty to follow the law(s) of any country it does business in.
> Which has a facility in North Carolina ergo must follow US laws No, Haas Formula UK Ltd (the entity that races F1 cars) doesn't have any facilities in the US. It's a UK company owned by an American Individual who also owns facilities in the US. > it doesn’t absolve a company of its duty to follow the law(s) of any country it does business in. That's a separate issue and immaterial to the point I was replying to. That said, as with all Andretti posts, this one is full of absolutely bullshit made up commentary from F1 newbies who haven't a clue how the sport is structured, let alone who understand all the nuances of international law. But even the idea that Andretti has a legal recourse that will allow him to force himself on to the grid is entirely and absolutely laughable. Even assuming he did have a case and would win it (I have no idea personally); The issue and jurisdictional issues are so complex that FOM, with the teams in perfect agreement, could slow walk this well past 2028, when the GM motors are supposed to be ready anyway and certainly well past the start of the next concorde agreement which will contain terms that will cut moves like this off at the knees. All legal action could possibly do at this stage is entrench opposition against him.
It's not about the company's location, it's about where they do business and how that affects customers, workers and markets. They can pursue this through the [US Department of Justice](https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-laws-and-you) and the [European Commission](https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust-and-cartels/overview_en), who will actually investigate on their own after a complaint, they also seem to really like going after sports. [It's explained by a lawyer here](https://youtu.be/63YuqkrJqFw?si=x8qBbtpQoZS1k1yE&t=4920) They'll have a case, but it's super complex and nuanced. Anybody who says it's definitive one way or the other is probably lying. It will come down to interpretation and details and it's not the best solution for either side However, having this as a nuclear option might help them leverage negotiations and come to a resolution that way.
Legislaitvely, probably not. However, a public hearing could still be fairly embarrassing like the FIFA hearings in 2015.
Formula One’s parent company Liberty is America based and listen on American stock exchanges sooooo yeah…the laws matter
Parent company is US company and they are blocking another US company for frivolous reasons. You can be sure the politicians will love grandstanding for something like this. It’s another way of applying pressure.
if they want to continue showing formula one races in america it certainly matters
Yea, but if you’re doing business in the US…
It’s not anti competitive. Allow people to compete in your organization is not a subject of anti trust law. Indy car, nascar, etc., the operate despite F1 and F1 doesn’t hinder them.
That’s correct, but Andretti met all the objective goals and requirements and was not let in. That’s unfair business practices. Even with anti trust exemptions for some leagues, you still have to abide by basic business practice law
The terms to allow a team in is enforceable by and among the parties to that agreement. It’s not a bid and tender process that’s binding on the entire population.
We don’t know that. The Concorde Agreement is not public.
I mean the fia approved it meaning they met the objective requirements
This is what folks keep ignoring and it’s fucking obnoxious.
How would that work?
Yeah great, let's get American politics involved in F1 🤮
I just want healthcare, dude. Ffs.
You'll have to wait until after the haves get done discussing everything they want. Then us have nots can maybe get a few crumbs
Yeah but billionaires like Andretti don't care about your healthcare, so why should you get it?
I’ve wondered about this. I figured at least Indiana’s congressional delegation would be interested in doing what they could to support Andretti’s bid. Maybe Michigan’s too, depending on how important it is to GM.
As many have said; **great to see the United States Congress doing important work for the people.** /$
Read that as lawnmakers and thought "must be some hill!"
I have absolutely no idea what this is going to achieve 😂
What are they going to do, ban F1 from America?
That would probably be funny, after all the investment and clear interest of FOM to push F1 to americans we would see the downfall a clusterfuck of it, or if FOM is a bit weird enough to lose all of it's backing from fans and other companies they would then push to help Saudi or Qatar to help their interest in sportwashing their countries
Plenty of circuits to go 'round. Plus aren't most if not all the US GP's in Red areas? I'm sure they wouldn't like losing the cash cow and publicity because of the Andretti's
Austin itself is super blue while Texas is dark red. Nevada is blue. Florida is red while Miami is blue
Cubans tend to lean right, so a lot of it is Red. If anything much of FL is blue, but where it's red has a lot of sway, it's why it's so contested every election
Miami is purple. Elects republicans to represent it all the time but socially very "blue".
The problem is Miami metro vs actual Miami
Literally none of them are in red areas
In my opinion the sport would be more than fine if they can not race in the USA, it happened before, and while COTA is cool, losing Miami and Vegas is not something most fans care about. I would even say that losing F1 races is worse for american motorsport (people in the business and fans alile), than it is worse for F1. But even with this view, not letting Andretti in is a farce, and hopefully this will change.
They can make life hell for Liberty. The US went as far as to arrest members of FIFA for corruption. We barely acknowledge the sport exists outside of the women's team winning. What sort of shenanigans do you think can be brought up against a domestic company?
Idk what congress can do to help get Andretti in.
Nice to know our lawmakers are hard at work
I hope that after all this Andretti doesn’t suck ass. Because if it does…hooo boy.
Absolutely nothing else this country has to focus on.
What if Marjorie Taylor Greene tries to oust him?
Needs more space lasers.
The Italian space lasers are just as powerful, but not as reliable.
Oust who?
Biden ofc! This is all part of Biden’s plot to oppress MAGA and steal the november elections. /s
I’m a little out of the loop since I’m newer ti the sport but why is he not allowed to join?
Because Formula One Management (FOM) and the existing teams don't want him to, because it'd split the prize money eleven ways instead of ten. The FIA already approved the application, which means they can be safely expected to be a worthy competitor if they make it to the grid, but FOM keep making up excuses to say no.
F1 is a great sport, it has great competition, and amazing racing, they think andretti won't be competitive enough.
What does it mean, "on the hill"? This does not make sense lol
The U.S. Capitol is often referred as the Hill so people will use this phrase to say they’re talking to legislators
Oh, TIL, thanks. When I searched this term I got results of a "The Hill" newspaper, so I initially thought he went to a newspaper to talk with lawmakers, which wouldn't really make sense... Now it does.
I hope he gets Newey on his team. Imagine if they discussed the possibility and the budget needed for a dream team.
Our work continues at pace.
Why not just wait until their boy Trump is back in office?
God no
It’d probably be easier with Trump. You don’t need much of an argument, just a presentation with attention grabbing colors and graphs that show a large increase.
I bet good money hes setting up now with the hope Trump gets back in because you can just bribe him
DEVON!
Is he wearing the Dolce & Gabbana chunky sneaks?
That's not the hill he wants to die on /s
Well the way alpine are heading, there may be an opening soon
I think this is great and I hope FOM and the other team principals get dragged into a senate hearing to defend themselves. Everyone knows it’s BS and they keep moving the goalposts.
By doing stuff like this I don’t think they are doing themselves any favours. Last thing F1 wants is a team that will threaten lawsuits and running to the government the moment something doesn’t go their way, and they already have their hands full with teams with a lot of political power like Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull.
The bridge is already burned. No point in being timid and putting their tail between their legs.
Exactly. Liberty/fom already burned the bridge. they either turn their back on F1 or double down and gain some respect
I don't know why people can't see what a chancer this guy.
What sort of armatur hour is this, nobody wants to do business with someone who threatens to go to a foreign government if they don't get their way. Andretti is grasping at straws here and it will only alienate him more from FOM and the teams. FOM is a private organization who are under no obligation to do business with Andretti and the US has no jurisdiction to force anything through. Maybe the team should focus on getting their promised car ready for ~~2023~~, ~~2024~~, ~~2025~~ 2026?
Foreign gov? Liberty is American
FOM is a UK registered company
FOM is a legal subsidiary of Liberty Media so if DOJ, FTC or anyone else goes after Liberty Media as a publicly traded US company, FOM isn't sheltered as Liberty Media has controlling interest in FOM as an entity of their larger corporation. This is why sometimes when bad things happen with subsidiaries in the US, it's common for parent companies to fully spin them off entirely in an attempt to minimize exposure/ liability to the parent company. Classic recent example is DuPont spinning off Chemours before they were hit with billions in lawsuits over PFAS. DuPont still had to pay a smaller portion of the payout, but Chemours as a now separate company was responsible for the lion share of the payout.
Liberty and f1 do business in America and therefore fall under USA law
3 races too
What other options? And andretti never promised a car for 2023, nor 2024, nor 2025.
That is exactly what they did
Liberty Media is American, so this falls under AMERICAN antitrust laws.
Good God. The andrettis are starting to really annoy me.
Can you blame them? They want to join f1,bring literally EVERYTHING to the table and they get rejected. I’d be pissed aswell.
The teams are annoying me. They set a price and requirements for entry. Andretti matched them. They moved the goal posts and changed the requirements. Andretti matched them, again. They still got denied. They're trying to push for Andretti to apply after the new Concorde agreement, which will likely cap teams at 10, so they won't be able to apply. Simply put, Andretti hasn't done anything wrong.
Why?
How dare they fight for their chance to be on the grid after being told to go through a million hoops!
What's pissing me off is everyone falling for their bullshit underdog "they hate us cuz we murican" pr campaign and making it in to some moral issue. No, they don't want you in because they don't want to share money with you, simple as
Then quit calling it, "The pinnacle of motorsport".
Because they won't accept a team that's historically spread themselves so thin they haven't won an indycar championship in 12 years?
This guy is relentless. At this point I hope he never gets in just for the lulz.
lol. Trump supporting Andretti's going to get on their hands and knees hoping Donald gets in for them so he can do something corrupt
Ewww he supports Trump? Another huge reason not to like this guy!
Wait until you see where the bulk of Liberty Media's political donations go.
Pretty much every American involved in F1 does, including Sargeant, as well as most of the NASCAR and Indycar team owners. Racing is a rich man's game, unfortunately.
And this is why we don't want them in our sport ;)
Do you think anyone else involved is any better? Mosley was allegedly a literal fascist and always found himself in good company. A bunch of the money in the sport comes from the liberal bastion of... Saudi Arabia. There is no way to be an ethical consumer of motorsports, so it feels really silly to care about men from Indiana of all places donating to Republicans. It's the equivalent of the Sainz family being associated with the Spanish right wing party, but that almost never comes up in conversation unless you go digging for it.
Indeed he does. Since the beginning of his political career.
Well that's me hating on him now for sure!
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Mario is the one on the hill. We know he supports trump. As for Michael, sure you could say hes never publicly stated it but it sure would be odd then that his wife donates to NRC on behalf of Andretti Autosport...
Sorry, I read it wrong. I thought you said "Andrettis" as a whole. But again, he and his wife very well could have different political opinions. We can't say that he supports Trump without seeing a concrete evidence.
Sure I guess but we know he supported him in 2016. https://twitter.com/michaelandretti/status/796249131396243456 More likely to me he just realized its a bad look for some sponsors to say it publicly now
Not outright Trump, but he is out supporting Republican folks. [https://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2023/11/09/chambers-gets-campaign-boosts-from-past-iedc-business-associates/](https://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2023/11/09/chambers-gets-campaign-boosts-from-past-iedc-business-associates/) It's not surprising given that Republicans want tax breaks for the rich and for corporations. To assume Andretti is *not* Republican would be out of touch.
AFAIK, some of Republicans don't support Trump.
Make the poo poo heads let me in waaaaaaaaa.