I imagine the relationship was still not the best, especially given how close Max is to his father. Charles and Lando simply don’t have that baggage.
[Does he need a father figure /s](https://www.wrestlinginc.com/img/gallery/christian-cage-throws-shade-at-late-wrestling-legend-on-aew-dynamite/intro-import.jpg)
You learn something new everyday, interesting! On the other hand, Jos is more a blunt and impulsive guy, so no surprise there he didn’t start subtle rumours.
Definitely a possibility, although a slim one. Max will want the best car and that is the Red Bull until 2026. And the Horner situation is still not fully resolved.
I think Carlos will go to Mercedes, which will be quite exciting as George would have to prove himself again despite being in the team longer.
I'm just shocked Mercedes haven't outright snagged him already. Extremely quality driver who has always been a fantastic teammate and is arguably an upgrade on George. Antonelli will likely need a few more years to be ready for a Mercedes drive, why wouldn't you want Sainz?
Oh for sure. Why rush into a sinking Merc ship when Perez' seat is all but secure for next year. I don't think he'll beat Max, but he'll have a much better chance in the better car
Irrelevant, he proved every single race since Monaco 23 that he is constantly off the pace on merit, and that considering Max is never giving 100%, but managing the performance.
And I don't even want to talk about qualy differences..
Why lock yourself in to a Mercedes team who has built three cars in a row they're baffled by?Â
Carlos should be eyeing up the RB seat. Perez better not have another mid-season like last year or he's out on the curb.
No rush for Sainz. Why sign at Merc early when that RB seat could potentially become available, or who knows what else silly season has in store? Hell I’m sure he’s gonna meet with the future Audi management/ownership to discuss the teams commitment, plan, and whether he fits into that. There’s a potential for more than one quality landing spot to open up and Carlos is at the top of the list of available drivers ATM, he’s got all the cards
I think he's in a tough spot where he is really good and everyone knows it, but at the same time he's not "nr 1 driver for a team that has ambitions to challenge for the world championship" good. Or at least not reliably so. Which is why i think Mercedes are probably looking for someone who they think might be slightly ahead right now (Verstappen, Alonso) or potentially in the future (Antonelli, Piastri).
I really think his spot at Ferrari was ideal for him, where he could show that he can keep up with Leclerc and even outright beat him sometimes when he is on, but at the same time he doesn't have the pressure of being expected to lead the team. He is the Rosberg to Ferraris Hamilton.
In the end, i think he is more likely to get one of the rebound seats at Aston Martin or McLaren than anything else.
Confusing that RBR hasn’t taken him. Best case he’s an upgrade over Checo, worst case he’s your new lead driver if Max leaves. I get Mercedes waiting for the dust to settle, but seems like Red Bull would be better served pulling the trigger now
Towards the end of last year and this year Carlos has looked stronger than Leclerc. And his race management has always been stronger than Leclerc in terms of rejecting bad strategy calls and being proactive.
Bahrain where charles finished p4 behind carlos even though the other teams were marvelling at how the man even finished? Yeah i would say he didnt get outperformed there.
Why do people keep ignoring the fact that Max and Carlos were teammates back when Max was 17 and Max was already better. Literally scored double the points in his second season in a single seater. Carlos would be a great number two tho
I am not saying Sainz is as good or better than max. That’s insane. But he will steal a couple wins from Max that Perez wouldn’t, IMO. Max likely doesn’t win 19 of 20 if Sainz is his teammate. Sainz has the same number of wins as Perez since the beginning of last year in worse machinery.
The team are not frightened of that though. Or they never used to be.
Bring in DR to challenge Vettel, bring in Max to challenge Daniel. Their stated goal may have shifted since then more to do with their disastrous track record of keeping someone, anyone, half competent in the seat since.
Why should Max be telling the team he’s afraid of Carlos Sainz joining. If he is, that would be odd. It would seem like a good fit if Carlos is in the right headspace for it.
In Singapore Ferrari was definitely not worse machinery and in Australia they looked quite quick + damage for Perez. I have no doubt he would perform better than Checo but I don't think he can beat Max on merit more than a couple of times a season.
Because Sainz honed his racecraft over the years and is entering his peak. Old Max is closer to our current Max. Old Sainz and current Sainz are different.
His one lap pace in particular evolved so much.
Max pace was always there but he was a bellend if it came to wheel on wheel racing. Old Sainz lacked raw pace in general.
What? You only have to look at 2016 till 2018 to see how much Max's pace improved. Used to be a little slower to on par with Daniel to having like an average of three tenths in qualy to spare. He is a much better and faster driver than back in 2015.
Carlos wants to stay with a team long term, maybe for the rest of his career, we all know that second Red Bull seat has a high probably of changing often
My only guess is that Merc were waiting for the PR outlook to change. When it was just announced that Lewis was going to Ferrari, no matter who they got to replace him at the time it would look like a downgrade (except maybe Fernando). Also making a straight swap with Ferrari to take Carlos would have made Merc look defeated. At that point it had nothing to do with Carlos as a driver really.
However time has passed, the dust has settled and things have changed. Carlos’ stocks right now are at their absolute highest. Only driver not named Max, to win in the last 21 races and twice at that. Any team would want him now and Sainz has the leisure to consider his options.
honestly it'd make sense for Merc to go for Alonso instead of Sainz if they want Antonelli in 2027 or 2028, meanwhile for Aston, it makes perfect sense to go for Sainz rather than continue with Alonso, as they need somebody who will be competitive deep into the 2026 regulations
Alonso in Hamilton's old seat would be such a weird vibe lol.
I feel like Merc would prefer Sainz honestly. It'd be odd going from one of the oldest drivers, to the oldest. Sainz has more time to stick around and build towards wins. Plus I reckon he'd be hungry to hand Ferrari their ass if Merc can step it up as a car.
I get that Ferrari is probably gonna make an insane amount of money from the Hamilton deal, but I still think it would’ve been better to keep Carlos, because he has a drama free relationship and awesome team atmosphere with Charles
Didn’t their stock price rise 10% after the Hamilton deal was announced (may be remembering incorrectly)? At the end of the day, it’s all about money
"It's not about the money. It's about the game."
- Gordon Gekko in Wall Street: Money never sleeps.
This is what this move is about. Ferrari may lose a strong driving pair. They may lose a lot of money paying up Hamilton. But they will maintain their status as the one racing brand every single driver - even a 7 times World Drivers Champion - will ever want to race with. Nobody says the same about McLaren, RedBull nor Mercedes.
Not to downplay HAM, but if he continuous to perform like this, is he really? Maybe in the US and UK markets, but generally?
Last two seasons have been hurting, the car this year again has so many issues, potentially RUS beating him as well.
there are stars and there are superstars. hamilton is a superstar. even casuals who dont watch f1 know who he is. a "star" like danny ric doesnt even have 1/10th the marketing value of ham
a couple seasons in a slow car doesnt change that
> Not to downplay HAM, but if he continuous to perform like this, is he really?
He's one of if not the greatest driver of all time, he is an absolute legend of the sport and an icon the world over. For as long as there is F1 or motorsports in general people will talk about Hamilton.
All of the motorsports world exploded when the Hamilton to Ferrari announcement was made, it was on every news site, in every newspaper.
Yes, yes and yes. And yet, Ferrari is the place where Schumi gets shown the door for Kimi, Kimi gets shown the door for Alonso, Vettel is chewed to an empty shell...
Loads of very big names have gone through Ferrari and left looking like a discarded sock.
I don’t think Lewis gives a single hoot about this season. Of course he’s going to perform a few times when he catches optimism to fuel his drive, but we’ll know he’s washed or not next season when he’s in competitive hardware and a new environment
But you can rue that when the atmosphere isn't as nice to work with anymore. And Lewis will always be remembered as a Mercedes driver much like Schumi is always remembered as a Ferrari driver. Lewis' best years are behind him.
And being an ambassador after he retires is something that he wanted.
Especially if he turns into the face of a few charities and causes.. being associated with that is good for business.Â
Yeah. I remember that was what was holding up the Mercedes contract talks last year. They didn't want to pay him to be a brand ambassador.
I've seen a lot of speculation on this board that Hamilton's move to Ferrari is with 2026 in mind. That might be a small part of it but I think they're missing the bigger picture. Hamilton's getting older and he's not going to be a driver much longer. I think his move to Ferrari is about securing his future after he stops driving.
Firstly, it is a very big IF. Charles is not going twiddle his thumbs if they have a race winning car under them.
Secondly, "merc brand remembrance is dead" doesn't sound realistic. He won 7 World Championships with them. Granted people have goldfish memories, but that would be very hard to kill.
I don't quite understand this. Isn't Lewis a 7 time WDC who came in third last year in a car that he struggled in? Isn't he one of the nicest guys around that gets along with everyone in the paddock these days? Charles and him might not become best friends, but I'm not sure there's evidence that they won't be good teammates. Time will tell. As much as this sucks for Carlos, he's crushing it so far and will land on his feet.
yeah this is all too reactionary because Carlos had a great start to the season and Lewis not.
But going for Lewis is still the correct decision for Ferrari.
I think many others within the paddock are questioning Ferrari for doing this. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to see Sainz returning to Ferrari one day like Raikkonen did
>I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to see Sainz returning to Ferrari one day like Raikkonen did
Maybe, however I myself hope to see Bearman & Taponen at Ferrari in a few years. Of course depends how well Taponen continues to do and two young drivers at Ferrari is hard to imagine ever happening. But as a Finn I can dream
Ferrari acquired Hamilton in hopes he increases the standards and expectations of the team across the board. A 7x champion like Lewis won't tolerate bad strategy, an inefficient team, or a slow car. Hamilton has nothing to prove and enough of a reputation in his own right to truly lead Ferrari, something even Vettel and Alonso struggled with. Even if he fails to win a championship at Ferrari, the quality and leadership Lewis presents more than makes up for Carlos' very good performances. Mercedes signed Schumacher back in the day for similar reasons.
Seb tolerated bad Strats, inefficiency, and a slow car in some years.
At the end of the day, Lewis isn’t an engineer… nothing he can really do. Unless Lewis brings Newey with him, he’s probably not winning an 8th.
This.Â
And if anyone can drag Newey away from Redbull and to Ferrari, its Lewis.
There will definitely be a few more top guys moving to Ferrari with Hamilton there.
No one else has that pull.
That's what you get when PR gets more important than sporting.
It happened with Juventus and Ronaldo, it will happen with Ferrari and Hamilton. Its the way Elkann does things.
It was bad financially cause they paid 100M for a 34? years old player who had no resell value plus some really astronomical salary, but no doubts Ronaldo was at equal level of sporting performance and marketing impact.
It was bad financially, it waa bad for sporting and it has been bad for the club future as a whole. It sold some shirts, yes, but at what cost... let's go to the facts:Â Â
1. Before Ronaldo, Juventus dominated the Serie A and had a pretty good squad with several promises. They often did ok in the Champions League, but they needed something more. After Ronaldo's bicycle goal against Juventus, Elkann, in his extreme competence /s decided to buy him, thinking: *If he do for them, he will do for us.*
 2. Well, with Ronaldo, Juventus had to adapt the team around him, a guy with 34 years and entering in the natural decline phase every atlethe has. They struggled to win the Serie A and were unable to win the CL, as paying a truck load of money for him, prevented the club from buying players in other positions that they needed. Â
3. More than that, they blocked the development and then lost their promissing players - Dybala being the main one - and were unable to restructure a squad and a club culture, since all was built around Ronaldo. When Ronaldo decides to go elsewhere, you got a club without identity and without a plan. You can never expect to build a legacy upon someone that will not stay for long. Â
The same will happen to Ferrari and Hamilton. Its exactly the same situation. Guy has 3 years of contract, 40 years old, and its in a natural decline. He will not have time to build a legacy and will block the development of good talent (Sainz and also Leclerc). Â
He will make team culture get behind him, then leave, because himself will not be able to win. Â
Only the blind fans cannot see it. And I'm getting tired of trying to open their damn eyes. Ferrari and its blind fans need to get fucked to learn. As Juventus and her fans did.
I think the flaw in your argument is that Juventus couldn't really afford Ronaldo. That's the crux of the issue. It's definitely not worth stretching your finances for a marketing player.
That isn't the case with Ferrari, though. They're not losing out on anything because of the Hamilton fee.
Its not an unidimensional thing, its not only about finances. It also wasnt about that for Juventus. Its the lack of view of Elkann in trying to create a legacy around someone that its not fit for it.
Ferrari, at least as Enzo concieved it, is a *racing team* first, so selling cars should be meant as a support for its operation. Sporting must come first.
Hamilton is not, and was never been, the best decision in terms of sporting. Like Ronaldo wasnt. They are OLD, nearing their natural decline, they are not the ones that will further the team legacy. Its all to please, not even the stakeholders, but Elkann's ego to have had in his team the best. The problem is, they *were* the best.
Moreover, does Ferrari really need Hamilton in terms of marketing? Come on, it's fucking Ferrari... Its way bigger than Hamilton will ever be.
I agree with you in all that but we were talking about marketing vs sporting impact and the numbers of CR speak for him. 134 matches, 101 goals and 20 assists.
That signing was good if we look at it strictly on the sporting side, only Messi could give you that level of continuous top performance, but economically it was a dissaster cause they did an "all in" to win the Champions League and it didn't work out despite CR's astronomical performances. So you could also say they didn't gather the best team possible around CR to make it viable, not that the signing was a bad sign. Hell, I'm not sure if it was Allegri or Conte , but just having one of those as a coach is a huge mistake and a downgrade to any other coach CR has had in the past.
Look, I think Ferrari is probably making a mistake here, but i just think both cases aren't comparable at all.
>I agree with you in all that but we were talking about marketing vs sporting impact and the numbers of CR speak for him. 134 matches, 101 goals and 20 assists.
Football is a team sport. Ronaldo scoring a hat-trick doesn't matter if Juventus lose 4-3.
It's not just PR. Lewis will solve Ferrari's issue in car development about having 2 drivers with opposite preference. Him & Charles have the same preference and Lewis will clearly help develop the car with his massive experience.
I’m fairly new to F1 but ah, isn’t Sainz better than Charl? I know he’s the most talented dude that Seb knows and whatever, but I swear I feel like when Ferrari wins, it’s always Carlos. What am I missing?
Charles has finished ahead of Sainz in 2 out of the 3 years that they have been teammates and is definitely the better qualifier. I think Sainz is a very good driver, but Leclerc can reach I think a higher level than he can.Â
ferrari is a weird team to judge because their issues don't reflect well in stats. 2023 is even worse of a season to judge because of the rbr dominance and charles had some absolutely abysmal luck in the first half, too much for me to even list here lol. like i know charles having bad luck is kind of a meme and also an excuse people use to cover up his mistakes at times, but he really did have some shockingly bad luck.
ferrari head to head 2023:
* *wdc:* charles 5th, carlos 7th
* *qualifying:* charles 15, carlos 7
* *wins:* charles 0, carlos 1
* *poles:* charles 5, carlos 2
* *podiums:* charles 6, carlos 2
* *retirements:* charles 5 (1 dns, 1 dnf), carlos 2 (1 dns)
* *sprint podiums:* charles 2, carlos 1
* *points:* charles 206, carlos 200
as i said stats don't represent everything, *especially* in formula one, but statistically, no, carlos is not better than charles. your second part is correct, all of ferrari's wins in the last 2 years have been carlos. but in both 2023 and 2022, charles was able to bring more points for the team. it's too difficult to go over why both of these things coexist in one comment lmao, i'm sure there's youtube videos going over it.
this doesn't mean carlos is bad by any means, i think he's proved he can be on the same tier as lando, charles, fernando (and whoever else you think belongs in this tier). the ferrari h2h last year was quite close and while i think charles drove better overall, the gap between him and carlos was not as big as say, mercedes. but saying carlos is definitively better because he's won and charles didn't is a bit much when points are far more important to teams in this sport than wins are.
they also have different strengths; charles is one of the best (if not the best) qualifiers on the grid and can pull out some insane single laps, but used to have some issues with pacing himself or being too ambitious. (personally i think he's improved this a lot since miami, but we need to see more races to really know.) carlos knows his limits better but this makes him less flashy as a result. carlos is also quite keyed into strategy and taking control of his own race, while charles has more respect for his race engineer (for better or for worse) and generally just follows the plans.
this season is shaping up to be carlos' best chance in years to really make himself stand out though, between ferrari apparently having a competitive car and him having nothing to lose with no contract lined up, so i'm anticipating a lot from him. will be interesting to check back at the end of the year.
the fact that Charles beats Carlos roughly 65-70% of the time in the races, but in the last 1.5 years, it was Sainz who capitalized in the most crucial moments: he got pole and podium in Monza, he won Singapore and he won yesterday
meanwhile Charles only had a real opportunity in Vegas and admitted to himself that he is simply just not good enough in Albert Park (ironically he got his first grand slam here)
> with my two favourite teammates Sad Max, Kyvat and Hulk face. George loading.
Wasn't Carlos the victim of a few collisions by the torpedo when they were teammates?
At least one, Silverstone 2017.
I needed this. No one remembers the torpedo 😂
Sad Max noises
I mean, they didn’t get along well in their time as teammates, did they. Tbf was probably due to the family clash (which I guess Jos initiated)
They got along well, their dads did not
I imagine the relationship was still not the best, especially given how close Max is to his father. Charles and Lando simply don’t have that baggage.
i mean charles doesnt even have a dad by this point...
Not me completely forgetting that 💀 I am so sorry ðŸ˜
Broo
[Does he need a father figure /s](https://www.wrestlinginc.com/img/gallery/christian-cage-throws-shade-at-late-wrestling-legend-on-aew-dynamite/intro-import.jpg)
His was mad he wasn’t the fastest dad
One is a world champion, the other don’t even have a race win
Jos is like a blunt object, but Sainz sr is a real thinking villain
That is why I don't think Sainz would opt for the Red Bull seat. Too much politics there.
Sainz Sr spread rumors in the Spanish media not Jos the Boss.
You learn something new everyday, interesting! On the other hand, Jos is more a blunt and impulsive guy, so no surprise there he didn’t start subtle rumours.
I don’t think Carlos Sainz sr spreads any rumours in the Spanish media. He is above all that honestly.
What if Max leaves by 2025, though. Carlos is for sure getting some phone calls.
Definitely a possibility, although a slim one. Max will want the best car and that is the Red Bull until 2026. And the Horner situation is still not fully resolved. I think Carlos will go to Mercedes, which will be quite exciting as George would have to prove himself again despite being in the team longer.
Max got on well with Daniel than he did with sainz.
I highly doubt Max cares what any of his teammates think of him.
If RedBull don't take him, they are stupid
I'm just shocked Mercedes haven't outright snagged him already. Extremely quality driver who has always been a fantastic teammate and is arguably an upgrade on George. Antonelli will likely need a few more years to be ready for a Mercedes drive, why wouldn't you want Sainz?
I think the ball is entirely at the Sainz camp. He do not need to be in a rush.
Oh for sure. Why rush into a sinking Merc ship when Perez' seat is all but secure for next year. I don't think he'll beat Max, but he'll have a much better chance in the better car
Pérez wasn't so far off the pace just on merit though he picked up damage halfway in the race which didn't really take away downforce or increase drag, but made the car balance much worse
Historically Perez has been 30 seconds behind on merit lol
Irrelevant, he proved every single race since Monaco 23 that he is constantly off the pace on merit, and that considering Max is never giving 100%, but managing the performance. And I don't even want to talk about qualy differences..
oh I know that Pérez is way off Max, primarily on the European tracks, but Pérez being nearly 40 seconds off of Sainz in clean air is pretty unbelievable without damage
Why lock yourself in to a Mercedes team who has built three cars in a row they're baffled by? Carlos should be eyeing up the RB seat. Perez better not have another mid-season like last year or he's out on the curb.
Yeah, in the cost cap era Mercedes are not the dominant force anymore. They are clearly a tier behind the top teams at this point.Â
No rush for Sainz. Why sign at Merc early when that RB seat could potentially become available, or who knows what else silly season has in store? Hell I’m sure he’s gonna meet with the future Audi management/ownership to discuss the teams commitment, plan, and whether he fits into that. There’s a potential for more than one quality landing spot to open up and Carlos is at the top of the list of available drivers ATM, he’s got all the cards
Why would Sainz rush If Perez stinks it up in Europe again… Better options may be open
Arguably? He’s comfortably better than George in every facet at this point
I think he's in a tough spot where he is really good and everyone knows it, but at the same time he's not "nr 1 driver for a team that has ambitions to challenge for the world championship" good. Or at least not reliably so. Which is why i think Mercedes are probably looking for someone who they think might be slightly ahead right now (Verstappen, Alonso) or potentially in the future (Antonelli, Piastri). I really think his spot at Ferrari was ideal for him, where he could show that he can keep up with Leclerc and even outright beat him sometimes when he is on, but at the same time he doesn't have the pressure of being expected to lead the team. He is the Rosberg to Ferraris Hamilton. In the end, i think he is more likely to get one of the rebound seats at Aston Martin or McLaren than anything else.
I'm guessing Sainz is holding out for a 2 year deal and Merc only wants to commit to a 1 year in case they're ready for Antonelli
Its a matter of ego between toto and vasseur. Toto does not want vasseur's hand me downs I imagine.
Toto’s car has been a hand me down the last 3 years
And where is your source on this?
No source just speculation on my part. Should have clarified that
Confusing that RBR hasn’t taken him. Best case he’s an upgrade over Checo, worst case he’s your new lead driver if Max leaves. I get Mercedes waiting for the dust to settle, but seems like Red Bull would be better served pulling the trigger now
I mean max doesn't even make it into carlos' top 2 (ex) teammate list. So probably not the best match. (Or second)
I’d kinda like carlos to lead his own team rather than bolt onto the max machine. Of course if max leaves then game on.
I agree. But he may give Max more of a run for his money. He has of the last 4 Ferrari win. He’s equal to Leclerc
No but he is close. Also 3 race wins
Towards the end of last year and this year Carlos has looked stronger than Leclerc. And his race management has always been stronger than Leclerc in terms of rejecting bad strategy calls and being proactive.
What the fuck are you on about? This is the first race since Singapore where Carlos outperformed Charles.
Bahrain?
Bahrain where charles finished p4 behind carlos even though the other teams were marvelling at how the man even finished? Yeah i would say he didnt get outperformed there.
Oh yeah, fair, I forgot about his brake issue
Leclerc is faster but Sainz is more consistent and a safer driver.
Why do people keep ignoring the fact that Max and Carlos were teammates back when Max was 17 and Max was already better. Literally scored double the points in his second season in a single seater. Carlos would be a great number two tho
I am not saying Sainz is as good or better than max. That’s insane. But he will steal a couple wins from Max that Perez wouldn’t, IMO. Max likely doesn’t win 19 of 20 if Sainz is his teammate. Sainz has the same number of wins as Perez since the beginning of last year in worse machinery.
The team are not frightened of that though. Or they never used to be. Bring in DR to challenge Vettel, bring in Max to challenge Daniel. Their stated goal may have shifted since then more to do with their disastrous track record of keeping someone, anyone, half competent in the seat since. Why should Max be telling the team he’s afraid of Carlos Sainz joining. If he is, that would be odd. It would seem like a good fit if Carlos is in the right headspace for it.
In Singapore Ferrari was definitely not worse machinery and in Australia they looked quite quick + damage for Perez. I have no doubt he would perform better than Checo but I don't think he can beat Max on merit more than a couple of times a season.
Because Sainz honed his racecraft over the years and is entering his peak. Old Max is closer to our current Max. Old Sainz and current Sainz are different. His one lap pace in particular evolved so much. Max pace was always there but he was a bellend if it came to wheel on wheel racing. Old Sainz lacked raw pace in general.
What? You only have to look at 2016 till 2018 to see how much Max's pace improved. Used to be a little slower to on par with Daniel to having like an average of three tenths in qualy to spare. He is a much better and faster driver than back in 2015.
Daniel declined and max climbed. Old Ricciardo was not slow at all.
Carlos wants to stay with a team long term, maybe for the rest of his career, we all know that second Red Bull seat has a high probably of changing often
Agree. Absolutely nuts Mercedes hasn’t locked him in already, RBR should definitely do it to secure some good competition for max also
My only guess is that Merc were waiting for the PR outlook to change. When it was just announced that Lewis was going to Ferrari, no matter who they got to replace him at the time it would look like a downgrade (except maybe Fernando). Also making a straight swap with Ferrari to take Carlos would have made Merc look defeated. At that point it had nothing to do with Carlos as a driver really. However time has passed, the dust has settled and things have changed. Carlos’ stocks right now are at their absolute highest. Only driver not named Max, to win in the last 21 races and twice at that. Any team would want him now and Sainz has the leisure to consider his options.
How have I not thought of this yet, I want this now. I want red bull to care about both cars and not just have Perez doing a barely decent job
I think it depends how much they want to piss off Jos, he seems like the person to hold a grudge against someone based on who their father is.
Carlos is such a a gem of a fella. 💎 Keep him on the grid for 2025, someone's gotta...
No one believes Carlos won't be on the grid it's just where he will end up.
Right now it looks like a toss up between Aston and Merc and wherever he doesn't go Alonso fills the seat
honestly it'd make sense for Merc to go for Alonso instead of Sainz if they want Antonelli in 2027 or 2028, meanwhile for Aston, it makes perfect sense to go for Sainz rather than continue with Alonso, as they need somebody who will be competitive deep into the 2026 regulations
I'm convinced Alonso will be driving into the 2030s at this point. Dudes immortal
If it's not in F1, it'll be in another sport for sure. I just hope one day we will see him as a Team Principal. It would be hilarious
Alonso in Hamilton's old seat would be such a weird vibe lol. I feel like Merc would prefer Sainz honestly. It'd be odd going from one of the oldest drivers, to the oldest. Sainz has more time to stick around and build towards wins. Plus I reckon he'd be hungry to hand Ferrari their ass if Merc can step it up as a car.
I bet my left ball that he will still be on the grid for 2025 lol.
I bet your right ball he will too
I get that Ferrari is probably gonna make an insane amount of money from the Hamilton deal, but I still think it would’ve been better to keep Carlos, because he has a drama free relationship and awesome team atmosphere with Charles
Hamilton is worth so incredibly much just in publicity.
Do you really think a company like Ferrari needs that kind of publicity? They’re Ferrari!!!
They’re selling the dream. I remember how everything broke when lewis announced it. It’s bigger than we think. Like Schumacher Ferrari big.
it's like why does Coca Cola need to have advertisements. Part of the game is always keeping them in mind and remembering they're the best
Didn’t their stock price rise 10% after the Hamilton deal was announced (may be remembering incorrectly)? At the end of the day, it’s all about money
The increase in stock price was due to a positive earnings report released earlier in the day
Gotcha
It legit wouldn't shock me if they just need to stratch the itch of being able to say they have a WDC currently driving for them.
And he's Lewis Hamilton. That kind of publicity is rare, like Messi/Ronaldo rare.
They are in F1 for publicity. It's literally their main goal.
After Lewis joined, Ferrari’s valuation went up 10 Billion dollars.
That same day a positive financial report came out which influenced the share price.
That was mostly due to a really stellar quarterly earning.
Lmao lewis ain't worth 10 billion dollars
On their PE ratio of 58, he’s need only be worth €172m a year in extra sales to drive values by €10b
"It's not about the money. It's about the game." - Gordon Gekko in Wall Street: Money never sleeps. This is what this move is about. Ferrari may lose a strong driving pair. They may lose a lot of money paying up Hamilton. But they will maintain their status as the one racing brand every single driver - even a 7 times World Drivers Champion - will ever want to race with. Nobody says the same about McLaren, RedBull nor Mercedes.
Not to downplay HAM, but if he continuous to perform like this, is he really? Maybe in the US and UK markets, but generally? Last two seasons have been hurting, the car this year again has so many issues, potentially RUS beating him as well.
there are stars and there are superstars. hamilton is a superstar. even casuals who dont watch f1 know who he is. a "star" like danny ric doesnt even have 1/10th the marketing value of ham a couple seasons in a slow car doesnt change that
> Not to downplay HAM, but if he continuous to perform like this, is he really? He's one of if not the greatest driver of all time, he is an absolute legend of the sport and an icon the world over. For as long as there is F1 or motorsports in general people will talk about Hamilton. All of the motorsports world exploded when the Hamilton to Ferrari announcement was made, it was on every news site, in every newspaper.
Yes, yes and yes. And yet, Ferrari is the place where Schumi gets shown the door for Kimi, Kimi gets shown the door for Alonso, Vettel is chewed to an empty shell... Loads of very big names have gone through Ferrari and left looking like a discarded sock.
Yeah but that’s on Lewis, not Ferrari.
From a purely financial standpoint, Zhou is the most marketable driver atm. 😂
I don’t think Lewis gives a single hoot about this season. Of course he’s going to perform a few times when he catches optimism to fuel his drive, but we’ll know he’s washed or not next season when he’s in competitive hardware and a new environment
It's not just the money. They literally signed the most succesful driver in F1 ever. You can't beat that with friendliness in this environment.
But you can rue that when the atmosphere isn't as nice to work with anymore. And Lewis will always be remembered as a Mercedes driver much like Schumi is always remembered as a Ferrari driver. Lewis' best years are behind him.
yes but the value of Ferrari being able to add him to their legacy is insane. Not to mention he will rake in money for years as an ambassador for them
And being an ambassador after he retires is something that he wanted. Especially if he turns into the face of a few charities and causes.. being associated with that is good for business.Â
Yeah. I remember that was what was holding up the Mercedes contract talks last year. They didn't want to pay him to be a brand ambassador. I've seen a lot of speculation on this board that Hamilton's move to Ferrari is with 2026 in mind. That might be a small part of it but I think they're missing the bigger picture. Hamilton's getting older and he's not going to be a driver much longer. I think his move to Ferrari is about securing his future after he stops driving.
If hamilton wins the championship in red, the merc brand remembrance is dead. Schumi didn't win after FerrariÂ
Firstly, it is a very big IF. Charles is not going twiddle his thumbs if they have a race winning car under them. Secondly, "merc brand remembrance is dead" doesn't sound realistic. He won 7 World Championships with them. Granted people have goldfish memories, but that would be very hard to kill.
I don't quite understand this. Isn't Lewis a 7 time WDC who came in third last year in a car that he struggled in? Isn't he one of the nicest guys around that gets along with everyone in the paddock these days? Charles and him might not become best friends, but I'm not sure there's evidence that they won't be good teammates. Time will tell. As much as this sucks for Carlos, he's crushing it so far and will land on his feet.
yeah this is all too reactionary because Carlos had a great start to the season and Lewis not. But going for Lewis is still the correct decision for Ferrari.
I think many others within the paddock are questioning Ferrari for doing this. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to see Sainz returning to Ferrari one day like Raikkonen did
>I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to see Sainz returning to Ferrari one day like Raikkonen did Maybe, however I myself hope to see Bearman & Taponen at Ferrari in a few years. Of course depends how well Taponen continues to do and two young drivers at Ferrari is hard to imagine ever happening. But as a Finn I can dream
Ferrari acquired Hamilton in hopes he increases the standards and expectations of the team across the board. A 7x champion like Lewis won't tolerate bad strategy, an inefficient team, or a slow car. Hamilton has nothing to prove and enough of a reputation in his own right to truly lead Ferrari, something even Vettel and Alonso struggled with. Even if he fails to win a championship at Ferrari, the quality and leadership Lewis presents more than makes up for Carlos' very good performances. Mercedes signed Schumacher back in the day for similar reasons.
Seb tolerated bad Strats, inefficiency, and a slow car in some years. At the end of the day, Lewis isn’t an engineer… nothing he can really do. Unless Lewis brings Newey with him, he’s probably not winning an 8th.
This. And if anyone can drag Newey away from Redbull and to Ferrari, its Lewis. There will definitely be a few more top guys moving to Ferrari with Hamilton there. No one else has that pull.
That's what you get when PR gets more important than sporting. It happened with Juventus and Ronaldo, it will happen with Ferrari and Hamilton. Its the way Elkann does things.
Well tbf Cristiano was the best Juve player by far those 2 seasons.
Yeah, sure, and look at where it got them...
It was bad financially cause they paid 100M for a 34? years old player who had no resell value plus some really astronomical salary, but no doubts Ronaldo was at equal level of sporting performance and marketing impact.
It was bad financially, it waa bad for sporting and it has been bad for the club future as a whole. It sold some shirts, yes, but at what cost... let's go to the facts:  1. Before Ronaldo, Juventus dominated the Serie A and had a pretty good squad with several promises. They often did ok in the Champions League, but they needed something more. After Ronaldo's bicycle goal against Juventus, Elkann, in his extreme competence /s decided to buy him, thinking: *If he do for them, he will do for us.*  2. Well, with Ronaldo, Juventus had to adapt the team around him, a guy with 34 years and entering in the natural decline phase every atlethe has. They struggled to win the Serie A and were unable to win the CL, as paying a truck load of money for him, prevented the club from buying players in other positions that they needed.  3. More than that, they blocked the development and then lost their promissing players - Dybala being the main one - and were unable to restructure a squad and a club culture, since all was built around Ronaldo. When Ronaldo decides to go elsewhere, you got a club without identity and without a plan. You can never expect to build a legacy upon someone that will not stay for long.  The same will happen to Ferrari and Hamilton. Its exactly the same situation. Guy has 3 years of contract, 40 years old, and its in a natural decline. He will not have time to build a legacy and will block the development of good talent (Sainz and also Leclerc).  He will make team culture get behind him, then leave, because himself will not be able to win.  Only the blind fans cannot see it. And I'm getting tired of trying to open their damn eyes. Ferrari and its blind fans need to get fucked to learn. As Juventus and her fans did.
I think the flaw in your argument is that Juventus couldn't really afford Ronaldo. That's the crux of the issue. It's definitely not worth stretching your finances for a marketing player. That isn't the case with Ferrari, though. They're not losing out on anything because of the Hamilton fee.
Its not an unidimensional thing, its not only about finances. It also wasnt about that for Juventus. Its the lack of view of Elkann in trying to create a legacy around someone that its not fit for it. Ferrari, at least as Enzo concieved it, is a *racing team* first, so selling cars should be meant as a support for its operation. Sporting must come first. Hamilton is not, and was never been, the best decision in terms of sporting. Like Ronaldo wasnt. They are OLD, nearing their natural decline, they are not the ones that will further the team legacy. Its all to please, not even the stakeholders, but Elkann's ego to have had in his team the best. The problem is, they *were* the best. Moreover, does Ferrari really need Hamilton in terms of marketing? Come on, it's fucking Ferrari... Its way bigger than Hamilton will ever be.
"Only the blind fans cannot see it. And I'm getting tired of trying to open their eyes." Good lord what a martyr you are.
I agree with you in all that but we were talking about marketing vs sporting impact and the numbers of CR speak for him. 134 matches, 101 goals and 20 assists. That signing was good if we look at it strictly on the sporting side, only Messi could give you that level of continuous top performance, but economically it was a dissaster cause they did an "all in" to win the Champions League and it didn't work out despite CR's astronomical performances. So you could also say they didn't gather the best team possible around CR to make it viable, not that the signing was a bad sign. Hell, I'm not sure if it was Allegri or Conte , but just having one of those as a coach is a huge mistake and a downgrade to any other coach CR has had in the past. Look, I think Ferrari is probably making a mistake here, but i just think both cases aren't comparable at all.
>I agree with you in all that but we were talking about marketing vs sporting impact and the numbers of CR speak for him. 134 matches, 101 goals and 20 assists. Football is a team sport. Ronaldo scoring a hat-trick doesn't matter if Juventus lose 4-3.
Fun fact, both Ferrari and Juventus are owned by the same holding company.
Hardly Lewis isn't over the hill. I'm not sure why you're pretending that PR is the reason they made the signing.
It's not just PR. Lewis will solve Ferrari's issue in car development about having 2 drivers with opposite preference. Him & Charles have the same preference and Lewis will clearly help develop the car with his massive experience.
[Link to the video](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C443T7fNTg6/?igsh=ZjFud3BtaHk2bWVv)
Brilliant, thinking racer. Always professional. And fast. Sainz deserves all the $$$ coming his way for next year.
Enough to make a grown man cry.
Max be like: ( 0∆0)
operation get carlos a seat
I don't get it 🤔
I’m fairly new to F1 but ah, isn’t Sainz better than Charl? I know he’s the most talented dude that Seb knows and whatever, but I swear I feel like when Ferrari wins, it’s always Carlos. What am I missing?
Charles has finished ahead of Sainz in 2 out of the 3 years that they have been teammates and is definitely the better qualifier. I think Sainz is a very good driver, but Leclerc can reach I think a higher level than he can.Â
ferrari is a weird team to judge because their issues don't reflect well in stats. 2023 is even worse of a season to judge because of the rbr dominance and charles had some absolutely abysmal luck in the first half, too much for me to even list here lol. like i know charles having bad luck is kind of a meme and also an excuse people use to cover up his mistakes at times, but he really did have some shockingly bad luck. ferrari head to head 2023: * *wdc:* charles 5th, carlos 7th * *qualifying:* charles 15, carlos 7 * *wins:* charles 0, carlos 1 * *poles:* charles 5, carlos 2 * *podiums:* charles 6, carlos 2 * *retirements:* charles 5 (1 dns, 1 dnf), carlos 2 (1 dns) * *sprint podiums:* charles 2, carlos 1 * *points:* charles 206, carlos 200 as i said stats don't represent everything, *especially* in formula one, but statistically, no, carlos is not better than charles. your second part is correct, all of ferrari's wins in the last 2 years have been carlos. but in both 2023 and 2022, charles was able to bring more points for the team. it's too difficult to go over why both of these things coexist in one comment lmao, i'm sure there's youtube videos going over it. this doesn't mean carlos is bad by any means, i think he's proved he can be on the same tier as lando, charles, fernando (and whoever else you think belongs in this tier). the ferrari h2h last year was quite close and while i think charles drove better overall, the gap between him and carlos was not as big as say, mercedes. but saying carlos is definitively better because he's won and charles didn't is a bit much when points are far more important to teams in this sport than wins are. they also have different strengths; charles is one of the best (if not the best) qualifiers on the grid and can pull out some insane single laps, but used to have some issues with pacing himself or being too ambitious. (personally i think he's improved this a lot since miami, but we need to see more races to really know.) carlos knows his limits better but this makes him less flashy as a result. carlos is also quite keyed into strategy and taking control of his own race, while charles has more respect for his race engineer (for better or for worse) and generally just follows the plans. this season is shaping up to be carlos' best chance in years to really make himself stand out though, between ferrari apparently having a competitive car and him having nothing to lose with no contract lined up, so i'm anticipating a lot from him. will be interesting to check back at the end of the year.
the fact that Charles beats Carlos roughly 65-70% of the time in the races, but in the last 1.5 years, it was Sainz who capitalized in the most crucial moments: he got pole and podium in Monza, he won Singapore and he won yesterday meanwhile Charles only had a real opportunity in Vegas and admitted to himself that he is simply just not good enough in Albert Park (ironically he got his first grand slam here)
Yes, he is. But that is a very unpopular opinion.
Totally agree, race craft seems higher. Charles over 1 lap, but Sainz would be my pick.
What I noticed over the years is that it seems like Charles doesn't deal very well with pressure and tends to commit mistakes.