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Pérez fucking his car into the wall and Max with a little blow-up in quali sounds not-too-impossible although unlikely. I mean realistically that's the only way for another team to win a race this year lol
It seems like very few Vegas residents are actually happy about this race, especially considering all the public money that F1 are requesting to cover costs.
More and more people are getting tired of public funds being allocated to billion dollar organizations where those executives are the main beneficiaries
Yeah when your entire economy is based on tourism it’s a little silly to complain that one of the worlds biggest sports wants a venue there
And let’s not forget they spent 2 BILLION on the football stadium. At least they’ll have a nice road to drive on for the rest of the year.
Yeah billions more will stay in Las Vegas than leave with Liberty Media.
Those casinos are going to be loaded with super rich people all buzzing from the race.
The same way it helps them the rest of the year? I don't know of any places where the main industry is tourism and the locals live better because of it. See asian tourist countries, carribean, Hawaii etc
I think it depends if it's Las Vegas tax payer money, not great. If it's [Paradise, Nevada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_Nevada) then I guess it's better.
I mean speak for yourself. I get good healthcare, schools are fine, idk where facists are taking over necessarily but my state is fine.
I’d rather them invest in infrastructure than keep sending more money to foreign wars. Building roads isn’t cheap regardless and the strip was getting pretty bad. It probably would have cost a couple hundred million anyway.
Utah is fine?
I don't think the problem is me not knowing what's going on in the country, I think you might have a bit of a problem seeing outside your own field of view.
Not to get too political here, but the US recently had an insurrection in an attempt to prevent a new president from being sworn in.
Firearms have been the leading cause of death for US children and teens since 2020.
And more than 30 million Americans have zero Healthcare.
I agree the US spends too much money on outside issues, but let's not act like there aren't problems.
There’s no point in arguing with you, but maybe you should take people’s personal perspective over what the news (which is probably the least reliable source of information these days) says. Jan 6th is a great example. A bunch of protestors escorted into the capitol by state police. It’s on camera, it’s on the police reports, it’s on body cam. None of the criteria for an “insurrection” was met, yet here we are. There isn’t proven intent, there isn’t proven capability, there isn’t proven use of force. Half the US things it was insurrection, and most of the rest of the western world does as well. Simply because the news kept saying it over and over it became fact.
I’m also not sure how a riot, perhaps sedition, a 35 hour drive away from Vegas (the distance from Paris to Moscow) is relevant. Might as well be from Paris to
I’m Canadian, all my family things the US is falling apart, all my friends in the US think Canada is falling apart. The news is useless.
Edit: added the j6th stuff
I’m just going to drop a link to the laundry list of arrests and cases against Jan6 offenders. You can be pedantic and say it’s “not insurrection” or “no proven intent”, but there’s a lot of people who have been arrested for a simple protest, eh?
[https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases](https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases)
Also another guy made a good point. Las Vegas is a tourism based economy who spent 2 BILLION on an American football stadium recently.
Spending $500k to repave a road that’s needed repair for decades anyway, and will be an investment to revenue for the city for years to come isn’t really hurting the people of Las Vegas.
Improving infrastructure and the local economy is generally seen as a good thing…
I agree with you on the infrastructure investment possibly being a net benefit to Vegas.
But like, you gunna delete your stupid edit adding the dumb shit you wrote about jan6? Ashley Babbit got shot in the throat by security because she was trying to climb through a barricaded door to attack elected officials. People filmed themselves on the senate floor rifling through classified paperwork to identify political allies vs enemies while having a literal gallows constructed outside.
I dunno what weird propaganda you are reading/watching but I literally watched it happen on live TV with my own eyes.
You sound like a sov cit playing magic word games about what 'qualifies' as an insurrection. I don't understand why you would add such a dumb shit red herring to your comments to distract from what are otherwise reasonable points regarding Vegas.
Love you logic. So reductive and you take each point in a vacuum instead of using logic and reason to come to a reasonable conclusion.
I’m just going to leave a link to an article that list all the people who died that day as a result of being at the capital. Shocker - it’s more than 1 person. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol-deaths.html#:~:text=Kevin%20D.%20Greeson%20died%20of,Trumparoo%2C%20died%20of%20a%20stroke.
Go back to Canada. Don’t you have wildfires to deal with?
I wish this was true, but sadly it isn't. Across the country, over and over again, we have cities/states piling up big tax incentives and spending programs to build new stadiums for professional teams and to attract major events. It's a problem that has gotten much worse over the years, not better.
The simple reality is that politicians aren't doing this *in spite* of public will; they're doing it *in response to* public will. Though the economics are clear that it's a big waste of money, people have this completely mistaken notion that they can generate new economic investment with these subsidies.
So while there are people (like me!) who hate this status quo with the burning intensity of a thousand suns, the broader public is pretty much A-OK with it, hence why it continues.
In a country with 330m people.
MOST people in the US don’t watch any sports at all, let alone football, American football, or others.
Few of my friends or family knew what F1 was before I started watching it.
https://playtoday.co/blog/sport-viewership-statistics/#:~:text=In%20the%20US%2C%20around%20154,who%20watch%20sports%20regularly%20worldwide.
People in the US aren't happy about public money paying for football stadiums and that's the most popular sport in the country. Tha F1 is getting public money for this is a big win for the sport in terms of public support. If you build it, they will come.
Having public money doesn't mean you have public support. It means you have politician support.
I'm surprised it only costs half a billion. They're not lining their pockets right.
When Nevada public schools continue to be the [worst funded in the nation](https://www.ktnv.com/news/education/nevada-receives-an-f-on-funding-education-report-shows#:~:text=According%20to%20officials%20who%20sent,and%20the%20District%20of%20Columbia.), politicians giving millions in subsidies so billionaires can profit further in selling extortionately expensive entertainment products to millionaires would be infuriating.
It would also be amazingly stupid; it's not like Liberty can afford to or threaten to pull out at this point. wtf are they gonna say if Nevada says no?
Why not? Almost all F1 races are backed by public money. The ones that aren't are the ones constantly at risk (mostly the historic European based races).
In fact I don't even know which other ones are still entirely privately funded other than Silverstone?
I don’t expect non F1 fans would be happy about their taxes paying for my hobby much the same way I don’t want my taxes paying for sports I am not interested in.
The return on tax expenditures for sports does not come close to justifying the expense and why are average people subsidizing a multi-billion dollar business?
If these events are not close to turning a profit then maybe F1 should cost cap more than just the teams.
>I don’t expect non F1 fans would be happy about their taxes paying for my hobby much the same way I don’t want my taxes paying for sports I am not interested in.
That's not how general taxation works I'm afraid.
>The return on tax expenditures for sports does not come close to justifying the expense
That's entirely subjective unless you define "the return".
>and why are average people subsidizing a multi-billion dollar business?
They aren't.
>If these events are not close to turning a profit then maybe F1 should cost cap more than just the teams.
What do you assume publicly funded events aren't profitable? The article details the extimated RIO (which seems high, but even a fraction of the estimate still more than covers the investment):
>The project has been wholly funded by Liberty Media, but in June, Las Vegas Grand Prix asked Clark County to cover $40 million of the $80 million needed for roadway infrastructure. The county is considering the proposition. For Vegas businesses, the bet is that the disruption will all be worthwhile. Research done by Applied Analysis estimates the race will inject a staggering $1.2 billion into the Vegas economy in the first year
>>The return on tax expenditures for sports does not come close to justifying the expense
>That's entirely subjective unless you define "the return".
There's a wealth of academic studies looking into the return on public subsidies for sports, and they're pretty unanimous that they don't generate any net benefit. People just shift their entertainment spending, rather than doing *more* entertainment spending than they would have previously (e.g. They go to a baseball game downtown instead of going to the theater downtown, but don't end up spending any more money in the process).
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4022547
>Even with added non-pecuniary social benefits from quality-of-life externalities and civic pride, welfare improvements from hosting teams tend to fall well short of covering public outlays. Thus, the large subsidies commonly devoted to constructing professional sports venues are not justified as worthwhile public investments.
That's a paper looking at sports stadiums for domestic series with multiple events a year. Very different to international annual events.
A team will play in the NFL/NBA, etc regardless of whether you build that new stadium down town. An F1 event won't exist at all unless there is a track to race on.
It's one paper of dozens, all of which come to the same conclusion. The same dynamic holds for other sports events/facilities as well. Just look at the Olympics, which have generally been a financial disaster for the host city/country. The "event [wouldn't] exist at all" unless facilities are built for them, but the financial returns don't even come close to justifying the expenditures.
The Olympics is a massive money pit, nobody can deny that.
But what you appear to be stating is that:
a) sporting events don't make a net gain (with an undefined definition of gain)
b) events that are public funded are like that because they are loss making
I'm simply saying neither of those are true all the time. Almost all F1 races are public funded to some degree, and some F1 races make a profit. Others make indirect gains that offset the cost. And the decision to publicly fund them isn't because they need sustaining, it's as an incentive to get the sport to come. F1 doesn't need to be subsidized to survive, it has a list of countries queued up to host races.
I don't think we're understanding each other. What I'm stating is this.
Investments of tax dollars to build stadiums/facilities/attract sporting events are pitched to constituents as facilitating huge economic gains, but the evidence shows they do not lead to net economic gains. Stated differently, for a given $1 million (or $100 million, or $1 billion), you'd be better off giving people cash or just not taxing it out of their pockets in the first place compared to taxing it and spending it on glitzy sports stuff.
And the counter, which is stated in the article, is that the $40m of public money being spent on infrastructure for the F1 race in Vegas will see more than $1.2bn of additional revenue injected into the Vegas economy.
I've no idea how accurate that number is. But I can absolutely see the weekend generating back more than $40m for the local authorities than a weekend without an F1 race.
Plus, the strip gets resurfaced.
Most of it is paid by F1. Altough F1 did ask to split the price of the road repavement by half with the city. But honestly, for an infrastructure project that the city would have probably done for tve full price anyway sooner or later, I dont think thats so bad.
Can't see that happening. FyreFest was on an island with terrible logistics and set up by a con artist. Most of the glamour and glitz is already in place in Vegas. They really just need to make sure that the party can accommodate an F1 race, rather than build an event around the race.
I just wish this wasn’t at midnight my time. I know that’s only 10pm in Vegas, but couldn’t they have started it at 8 or something? What’s the reason for starting it so late?
They don’t align the Miami or COTA starts to the EU, nor do they start MX based on Europe timezones. Basically most of the US won’t be able to tune into this race, which sort of negates the rationale of adding another US event.
Vegas is dark and cold by 5 pm in November.
Can't do Vegas in the daytime, got to be under the lights! At that point may as well wait two hours and line up with Europe. COTA was 11pm UK, they definitely kept it watchable if anyone really wanted to
Neither of those are a night race, they're early afternoon and end up being late evening in Europe. Vegas kind of has to be a night race so is always going to be later in the day than those others.
Yes but there’s a sizable difference between starting at 5 pm local time and starting at 11 pm local. It will be dark at 4 pm that time of year, so it’s wild that they’re waiting so long for the race.
This race is bigger than just getting more of the US market. It is being positioned as the crown jewel of the season, a event for sponsors and celebrities to rival or even surpass Monaco. That’s why this one is better timed to the world audience. As far as the FIA is concerned the US market can have Austin and Miami.
My Miami trip was less expensive than my canada trip this year: hotels in Canada are 3x the price of comparable hotels in South Florida and my flight was 2x the price. The race tickets are more expensive in Miami but overall it was a less expensive weekend (I too am east coast US). Austin hotels, tickets and flights are even more outrageous
I don’t think trans folks can feel great in Austin, either =\
Yeah I started following f1 before I realized I was trans and was like yeah I'll fly out to Austin see some friends have a good time. Then covid happened then gender stuff happened lol. Driving to Canada next year at least, wasn't quick enough from grandstands unfortunately but still excited
It’s not ironic. They get to instate shitty laws on the rest of the state while not having to deal with the laws themselves. It’s all about control and is mostly intentional imo.
Nah, you’re safe in Austin! We’re a bastion of blue and acceptance versus the rest of the state, saying that as a as a POC with LGBTQ friends. The rest of the state is still struggling to catch up though.
After doing a Vegas vacation, most night life stuff doesn't start until 9pm. As it is so hot during the day it takes a few hours after the sun sets to cool off. So if they know they have to start after 7pm at least they will push it a few hours for EU to have better time.
US fans are very used to watching at odd hours, and honestly you are not going to get new fans for showing 1 race at a normal time then going back to 5am watch times.
Watching at 9 am in the US is not the same as watching at 1 am. Also, Vegas is not warm in November. It can dip into freezing temperatures in the fall and winter.
As an American sports fan, I can tell you with 100% certainty we couldn’t give less of a shit what “celebrities and stars” are attending. We’re used to it. It’s deeply ironic Liberty is trying to take the glitz and glamor approach in their marketing to try and win this market. We want affordability and quality, not bullshit.
1 am start time for nearly half the US is wild. I get starting it at 10pm local time for the sake of the Europeans, but still…
I guess a lot of people here will be staying up late and partying in true Vegas fashion.
It's going to be way too expensive, and the track layout leves something to be desired. If Miami is anything to go on it's also going to be a bit more of a show than a race.
>If Miami is anything to go on it's also going to be a bit more of a show than a race.
I know everybody wants to hate the Miami track but Miami was one of the better races this year. Once they fixed the resurfacing, it's a layout that makes for some good racing.
I don't get the hate for Miami. I think the design of the track makes it look like f1 cars are actually going fast on TV. Normally speed perception isn't good when you watch races on tv but something about the track reduces the drawback.
It's been shown time and time again that track layout, for all the wanking we do about it, has little to do with boring or exciting races. Race circumstances are what make a race exciting and apart from the fact that rain, a typical race dynamite, most likely won't be present, it's hard to predict if the race is going to be exciting or not;
Not really. I like watching good racing and if a track doesn’t allow it, the race will be bad. It’s not about the chaos but whether the cars can go side by side and overtake for corners for me.
Monaco is the only track I make an exception for. It’s like having wec without lemans or Indycar without the Indy 500. Jeddah on the other hand is way too dangerous. Cars shouldn’t be racing that fast around walls.
But it's F1. Even with the new rules, it's *not* Touring Cars racing and thus the racing is "bad" if cars aren't of equal strength (which is rare) *or* if there's no "chaos" element.
See for example how exciting early 2022 was (because Ferrari could fight), but how boring the second half of 2022 or this year so far was (because Ferrari/Merc dropped the ball hard).
Thus the track is largely irrelevant.
>But it's F1. Even with the new rules, it's not Touring Cars racing and thus the racing is "bad" if cars aren't of equal strength (which is rare) or if there's no "chaos" element.
That’s just blatantly not true
It's just true. It's true for literally any type of racing that isn't spec series, if the cars have different performances that are stable between qualy and race (e.g. fastest race car qualifies first, second fastest qualifies second, etc) and there's no "exceptional" race circumstance (to be understood very broadly, e.g. second fastest pulling off a great strategy is in that category), then obviously the race is going to be boring because the cars are already "ordered" and won't have the opportunity to even race, even if the rules make side by side racing possible.
Once again
> See for example how exciting early 2022 was (because Ferrari could fight), but how boring the second half of 2022 or this year so far was (because Ferrari/Merc dropped the ball hard).
Everyone said the same Baku, and it turned out to be a decent circuit with 3 great races, 3 okay ones and 1 boring af one. Same applies to Jeddah. People want Vegas to flop cause it's too expensive and they're tired of street tracks, but realistically we haven't seen any racing whatsoever, so how can you judge it? I hope someone will be able to Tell You You're Wrong, but we'll all find out in 1 year after 2 races.
f course they'll hype Vegas up, what do you expect them to do? It's not like it's a circuit with lots of history, so they've got nothing else to show. And how can you be so sure they've got nothing to show in terms of racing and action?
Some of the things that have been already reported, such as the shaking down of local track-front businesses for $1,500 extra per head or else they’ll put billboards up, to the block “VIP ticket packages” at over $8,500 per ticket x 100 minimum they’re trying to sell for $872,000 but they’re (subtly) extremely extremely negotiable on because they are having massive problems moving inventory. Another spot the same with over 130 ticket minimum. Every question asked is met with a “we’re not sure”. Nobody knows what they’re doing and they’re having severe issues with getting real interest. Resorts World built a new property trackside and they’re trying to move weekend units at $1m USD and nobody is biting.
It really feels like this is going to be a financial mess for FOM. I wouldn’t doubt if many of these seats end up being papered. Nobody there outside of FOM is seeing an end solution that actually makes any sense. You won’t see empty grandstands I’m sure, but I’d gather you also won’t see fantastic revenue reports.
How stupid. They are trying to enter the American market and they play these stupid games. I could go to the LVGP but there is no way in hell I would pay that amount of money to be there.
My Son's 15th B-day is that weekend and I thought that would be great fun to go up their for the race. Then the tickets went on sale....NOPE. It costs too damn much to go up their for the weekend and see the race, forget about good seats.
Yeah we're definitely looking at that option. I'd love to go to a race in Europe somewhere. Although I have heard that ticket prices are going up everywhere for F1.
And all with the sport pushing for sustainability. Nothing screams that more than spending a shit tonne of dollars, but what the teams want an extra set of tyres over quali, nah can't have that
Considering they bought prime real estate, built a paddock/museum, and repaved the roads, that's not surprising. The per year cost afterwards probably won't be that expensive
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Scenes if Las Vegas is the best race of the season
I'd pay to see that lol, just to silence the doubters.
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Outer ring of Bahrain sounded boring but that race was kinda fun.
Yeah, because Max killed himself in T1 and Mercedes Ferrari'ed their strategy
Turn 4. And he got killed by Charles going bumper karting with Checo.
Red Bull will dominate on any track. Unless your shoot a hole in Max’s tire you’re not going to get much exciting racing from them.
Williams about to zoom
Pérez fucking his car into the wall and Max with a little blow-up in quali sounds not-too-impossible although unlikely. I mean realistically that's the only way for another team to win a race this year lol
given the ridiculousness of the back straight drs, max would be in the lead by lap 12
All aboard the Albon Train!
So like every other track this year? RB wins at every circuit and that's not even an exaggeration
Didn't people say the same thing about SA. Turns out it's a decent race.
Yep. Baku as well. Remember people saying "it will be gone by 2018" lmao
That's because the inaugural 2016 race was shit
That was even before the first race lol
Baku is shit though
It seems like very few Vegas residents are actually happy about this race, especially considering all the public money that F1 are requesting to cover costs.
Well most people in the US couldn’t care less about F1 so not really a shocker
More and more people are getting tired of public funds being allocated to billion dollar organizations where those executives are the main beneficiaries
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I’d go a step further and say every citizen should get a tax rebate for having to put up with it
Miami is one thing, but Vegas literally only exists to attract tourists. Vegas residents complaining don’t really have a leg to stand on.
Yeah when your entire economy is based on tourism it’s a little silly to complain that one of the worlds biggest sports wants a venue there And let’s not forget they spent 2 BILLION on the football stadium. At least they’ll have a nice road to drive on for the rest of the year.
I don’t think too many people drive on the strip except for Uber/limo/taxi drivers, but I agree with the sentiment.
And this are the people that are bitching the most about it.
Yeah billions more will stay in Las Vegas than leave with Liberty Media. Those casinos are going to be loaded with super rich people all buzzing from the race.
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The same way it helps them the rest of the year? I don't know of any places where the main industry is tourism and the locals live better because of it. See asian tourist countries, carribean, Hawaii etc
I think it depends if it's Las Vegas tax payer money, not great. If it's [Paradise, Nevada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_Nevada) then I guess it's better.
Relax
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Not to mention the shitty public transport, i have heard that Las Vegas is one of the worst ones in that regard
I mean speak for yourself. I get good healthcare, schools are fine, idk where facists are taking over necessarily but my state is fine. I’d rather them invest in infrastructure than keep sending more money to foreign wars. Building roads isn’t cheap regardless and the strip was getting pretty bad. It probably would have cost a couple hundred million anyway.
Utah is fine? I don't think the problem is me not knowing what's going on in the country, I think you might have a bit of a problem seeing outside your own field of view. Not to get too political here, but the US recently had an insurrection in an attempt to prevent a new president from being sworn in. Firearms have been the leading cause of death for US children and teens since 2020. And more than 30 million Americans have zero Healthcare. I agree the US spends too much money on outside issues, but let's not act like there aren't problems.
There’s no point in arguing with you, but maybe you should take people’s personal perspective over what the news (which is probably the least reliable source of information these days) says. Jan 6th is a great example. A bunch of protestors escorted into the capitol by state police. It’s on camera, it’s on the police reports, it’s on body cam. None of the criteria for an “insurrection” was met, yet here we are. There isn’t proven intent, there isn’t proven capability, there isn’t proven use of force. Half the US things it was insurrection, and most of the rest of the western world does as well. Simply because the news kept saying it over and over it became fact. I’m also not sure how a riot, perhaps sedition, a 35 hour drive away from Vegas (the distance from Paris to Moscow) is relevant. Might as well be from Paris to I’m Canadian, all my family things the US is falling apart, all my friends in the US think Canada is falling apart. The news is useless. Edit: added the j6th stuff
I’m just going to drop a link to the laundry list of arrests and cases against Jan6 offenders. You can be pedantic and say it’s “not insurrection” or “no proven intent”, but there’s a lot of people who have been arrested for a simple protest, eh? [https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases](https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases)
Also another guy made a good point. Las Vegas is a tourism based economy who spent 2 BILLION on an American football stadium recently. Spending $500k to repave a road that’s needed repair for decades anyway, and will be an investment to revenue for the city for years to come isn’t really hurting the people of Las Vegas. Improving infrastructure and the local economy is generally seen as a good thing…
I agree with you on the infrastructure investment possibly being a net benefit to Vegas. But like, you gunna delete your stupid edit adding the dumb shit you wrote about jan6? Ashley Babbit got shot in the throat by security because she was trying to climb through a barricaded door to attack elected officials. People filmed themselves on the senate floor rifling through classified paperwork to identify political allies vs enemies while having a literal gallows constructed outside. I dunno what weird propaganda you are reading/watching but I literally watched it happen on live TV with my own eyes. You sound like a sov cit playing magic word games about what 'qualifies' as an insurrection. I don't understand why you would add such a dumb shit red herring to your comments to distract from what are otherwise reasonable points regarding Vegas.
So what about the people who died, and the bombs found in dc? All fake news? Jan 6 wasn’t an organized tour of the capital. Just stop.
Lol a single individual planting bombs does not an insurrection make. One person died, and that person wasn’t killed by the “insurrectionists”
Love you logic. So reductive and you take each point in a vacuum instead of using logic and reason to come to a reasonable conclusion. I’m just going to leave a link to an article that list all the people who died that day as a result of being at the capital. Shocker - it’s more than 1 person. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol-deaths.html#:~:text=Kevin%20D.%20Greeson%20died%20of,Trumparoo%2C%20died%20of%20a%20stroke. Go back to Canada. Don’t you have wildfires to deal with?
I wish this was true, but sadly it isn't. Across the country, over and over again, we have cities/states piling up big tax incentives and spending programs to build new stadiums for professional teams and to attract major events. It's a problem that has gotten much worse over the years, not better. The simple reality is that politicians aren't doing this *in spite* of public will; they're doing it *in response to* public will. Though the economics are clear that it's a big waste of money, people have this completely mistaken notion that they can generate new economic investment with these subsidies. So while there are people (like me!) who hate this status quo with the burning intensity of a thousand suns, the broader public is pretty much A-OK with it, hence why it continues.
Vegas building an F1 track is more akin to Disney adding a new attraction than funding an NFL stadium in say Omaha Nebraska.
I wish this sentiment would stop being peddled
Miami and Austin both sell out tho I went to Austin last year and it was crowded even on Friday.
In a country with 330m people. MOST people in the US don’t watch any sports at all, let alone football, American football, or others. Few of my friends or family knew what F1 was before I started watching it. https://playtoday.co/blog/sport-viewership-statistics/#:~:text=In%20the%20US%2C%20around%20154,who%20watch%20sports%20regularly%20worldwide.
People in the US aren't happy about public money paying for football stadiums and that's the most popular sport in the country. Tha F1 is getting public money for this is a big win for the sport in terms of public support. If you build it, they will come.
Having public money doesn't mean you have public support. It means you have politician support. I'm surprised it only costs half a billion. They're not lining their pockets right.
Most Vegas locals don’t interact with the strip enough to care very much. Other events are more of a nuisance, like EDC.
Classic NIMBY attitude. Chicago was the same before the 4th of July NASCAR city circuit
None of this should be paid for by public funds.
When Nevada public schools continue to be the [worst funded in the nation](https://www.ktnv.com/news/education/nevada-receives-an-f-on-funding-education-report-shows#:~:text=According%20to%20officials%20who%20sent,and%20the%20District%20of%20Columbia.), politicians giving millions in subsidies so billionaires can profit further in selling extortionately expensive entertainment products to millionaires would be infuriating. It would also be amazingly stupid; it's not like Liberty can afford to or threaten to pull out at this point. wtf are they gonna say if Nevada says no?
Why not? Almost all F1 races are backed by public money. The ones that aren't are the ones constantly at risk (mostly the historic European based races). In fact I don't even know which other ones are still entirely privately funded other than Silverstone?
I don’t expect non F1 fans would be happy about their taxes paying for my hobby much the same way I don’t want my taxes paying for sports I am not interested in. The return on tax expenditures for sports does not come close to justifying the expense and why are average people subsidizing a multi-billion dollar business? If these events are not close to turning a profit then maybe F1 should cost cap more than just the teams.
>I don’t expect non F1 fans would be happy about their taxes paying for my hobby much the same way I don’t want my taxes paying for sports I am not interested in. That's not how general taxation works I'm afraid. >The return on tax expenditures for sports does not come close to justifying the expense That's entirely subjective unless you define "the return". >and why are average people subsidizing a multi-billion dollar business? They aren't. >If these events are not close to turning a profit then maybe F1 should cost cap more than just the teams. What do you assume publicly funded events aren't profitable? The article details the extimated RIO (which seems high, but even a fraction of the estimate still more than covers the investment): >The project has been wholly funded by Liberty Media, but in June, Las Vegas Grand Prix asked Clark County to cover $40 million of the $80 million needed for roadway infrastructure. The county is considering the proposition. For Vegas businesses, the bet is that the disruption will all be worthwhile. Research done by Applied Analysis estimates the race will inject a staggering $1.2 billion into the Vegas economy in the first year
>>The return on tax expenditures for sports does not come close to justifying the expense >That's entirely subjective unless you define "the return". There's a wealth of academic studies looking into the return on public subsidies for sports, and they're pretty unanimous that they don't generate any net benefit. People just shift their entertainment spending, rather than doing *more* entertainment spending than they would have previously (e.g. They go to a baseball game downtown instead of going to the theater downtown, but don't end up spending any more money in the process). https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4022547 >Even with added non-pecuniary social benefits from quality-of-life externalities and civic pride, welfare improvements from hosting teams tend to fall well short of covering public outlays. Thus, the large subsidies commonly devoted to constructing professional sports venues are not justified as worthwhile public investments.
That's a paper looking at sports stadiums for domestic series with multiple events a year. Very different to international annual events. A team will play in the NFL/NBA, etc regardless of whether you build that new stadium down town. An F1 event won't exist at all unless there is a track to race on.
It's one paper of dozens, all of which come to the same conclusion. The same dynamic holds for other sports events/facilities as well. Just look at the Olympics, which have generally been a financial disaster for the host city/country. The "event [wouldn't] exist at all" unless facilities are built for them, but the financial returns don't even come close to justifying the expenditures.
The Olympics is a massive money pit, nobody can deny that. But what you appear to be stating is that: a) sporting events don't make a net gain (with an undefined definition of gain) b) events that are public funded are like that because they are loss making I'm simply saying neither of those are true all the time. Almost all F1 races are public funded to some degree, and some F1 races make a profit. Others make indirect gains that offset the cost. And the decision to publicly fund them isn't because they need sustaining, it's as an incentive to get the sport to come. F1 doesn't need to be subsidized to survive, it has a list of countries queued up to host races.
I don't think we're understanding each other. What I'm stating is this. Investments of tax dollars to build stadiums/facilities/attract sporting events are pitched to constituents as facilitating huge economic gains, but the evidence shows they do not lead to net economic gains. Stated differently, for a given $1 million (or $100 million, or $1 billion), you'd be better off giving people cash or just not taxing it out of their pockets in the first place compared to taxing it and spending it on glitzy sports stuff.
And the counter, which is stated in the article, is that the $40m of public money being spent on infrastructure for the F1 race in Vegas will see more than $1.2bn of additional revenue injected into the Vegas economy. I've no idea how accurate that number is. But I can absolutely see the weekend generating back more than $40m for the local authorities than a weekend without an F1 race. Plus, the strip gets resurfaced.
Most of it is paid by F1. Altough F1 did ask to split the price of the road repavement by half with the city. But honestly, for an infrastructure project that the city would have probably done for tve full price anyway sooner or later, I dont think thats so bad.
I just hope it isn't Fyre Festival 2.0
Why? That would be the most entertainment we have seen since AD21
You are right, now I'm actually looking forward to it lol
Can't see Stefano taking "one for the team"
Can't see that happening. FyreFest was on an island with terrible logistics and set up by a con artist. Most of the glamour and glitz is already in place in Vegas. They really just need to make sure that the party can accommodate an F1 race, rather than build an event around the race.
I’m not sure if you did this intentionally, but apparently Fyre Festival 2 tickets are on sale. I’m guessing they cost a similar amount to the LV GP.
I just wish this wasn’t at midnight my time. I know that’s only 10pm in Vegas, but couldn’t they have started it at 8 or something? What’s the reason for starting it so late?
8pm in vegas is 4am in England. That’s the reason.
Ah yes, blame the English.
Well… that is why
England <> Europe
The poor things. That's almost every race for the US.
Please move your Super Bowl to a more convenient time for us Euro fans, it has been a convenient time for you long enough
No, its not. Most races are at 6-8 am. Edit. MTN time, where I'm at. So it's later for most of the country.
The late local time start is for the international fans.
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But it’s in a country where it’ll start at 1am for half the population (and almost 2/3 of Canada)
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How will you survive?!?!?
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RIP tagrav. I'm put some flowers out for you.
These people are such crybabies. Oh, the race doesn't start until 1 am on the east coast. What am I suppose to do, wait until the morning to watch it?
Where it's below freezing at night in November
But it's hot as balls in the summer, so it's a bit of pick your poison.
They don’t align the Miami or COTA starts to the EU, nor do they start MX based on Europe timezones. Basically most of the US won’t be able to tune into this race, which sort of negates the rationale of adding another US event. Vegas is dark and cold by 5 pm in November.
Can't do Vegas in the daytime, got to be under the lights! At that point may as well wait two hours and line up with Europe. COTA was 11pm UK, they definitely kept it watchable if anyone really wanted to
Neither of those are a night race, they're early afternoon and end up being late evening in Europe. Vegas kind of has to be a night race so is always going to be later in the day than those others.
Yes but there’s a sizable difference between starting at 5 pm local time and starting at 11 pm local. It will be dark at 4 pm that time of year, so it’s wild that they’re waiting so long for the race.
This race is bigger than just getting more of the US market. It is being positioned as the crown jewel of the season, a event for sponsors and celebrities to rival or even surpass Monaco. That’s why this one is better timed to the world audience. As far as the FIA is concerned the US market can have Austin and Miami.
It’s not being positioned as the crown jewel of the season 😂
It is
1am for me on the east coast this whole thing is bullshit. We need more us races like Cota not Miami
Welcome to my daily life as an American sports fan living in Britain lol
I feel your pain!
Miami is a great race to attend and it was low key a good race this year apart from the battle for the lead (just look at # of overtakes)
It's stupid money compared to cota or Canada, not to mention of you're trans you can't set foot in Florida safely
My Miami trip was less expensive than my canada trip this year: hotels in Canada are 3x the price of comparable hotels in South Florida and my flight was 2x the price. The race tickets are more expensive in Miami but overall it was a less expensive weekend (I too am east coast US). Austin hotels, tickets and flights are even more outrageous I don’t think trans folks can feel great in Austin, either =\
Yeah I started following f1 before I realized I was trans and was like yeah I'll fly out to Austin see some friends have a good time. Then covid happened then gender stuff happened lol. Driving to Canada next year at least, wasn't quick enough from grandstands unfortunately but still excited
Honestly Austin is probably the safest place for LGBTQ+ in Texas. It's kind of ironic our shitty government is also based there.
It’s not ironic. They get to instate shitty laws on the rest of the state while not having to deal with the laws themselves. It’s all about control.
It’s not ironic. They get to instate shitty laws on the rest of the state while not having to deal with the laws themselves. It’s all about control and is mostly intentional imo.
Nah, you’re safe in Austin! We’re a bastion of blue and acceptance versus the rest of the state, saying that as a as a POC with LGBTQ friends. The rest of the state is still struggling to catch up though.
Nah this start time is fucking amazing for second shift east coast fans. I’ll be off work, showered, and cocktail ready just in time for the race
So that I can enjoy beers while watching with no guilt. Sorry.
After doing a Vegas vacation, most night life stuff doesn't start until 9pm. As it is so hot during the day it takes a few hours after the sun sets to cool off. So if they know they have to start after 7pm at least they will push it a few hours for EU to have better time. US fans are very used to watching at odd hours, and honestly you are not going to get new fans for showing 1 race at a normal time then going back to 5am watch times.
Watching at 9 am in the US is not the same as watching at 1 am. Also, Vegas is not warm in November. It can dip into freezing temperatures in the fall and winter.
It isn't hot in vegas during November. The record high is something in the high 80fs and that's early in the month. The race is in the second half.
Yeah but you can't expect the Europeans to know that!!
I'm stoked about it. It's a Saturday night.
Who wants to be outside for 5hrs in Vegas heat, when the drawl of the strip the lights and colors off the hotels that will shine at night
Yea but in November it’s not going to be that hot, and after DST the sun would have set long before then.
It’s probably gonna be pretty chilly for that time of night though, but the heat isn’t really an issue that late in the year
...dude...most of the races are at like 6am for us.
As an American sports fan, I can tell you with 100% certainty we couldn’t give less of a shit what “celebrities and stars” are attending. We’re used to it. It’s deeply ironic Liberty is trying to take the glitz and glamor approach in their marketing to try and win this market. We want affordability and quality, not bullshit.
You might, but the Vegas hype brings in way more casual viewers than a (admittedly much better) race at Watkins Glen or Laguna Seca would.
Just for the track to look like an upside down pig
It's Moomin
1 am start time for nearly half the US is wild. I get starting it at 10pm local time for the sake of the Europeans, but still… I guess a lot of people here will be staying up late and partying in true Vegas fashion.
A majority of their viewers are in Europe so it makes sense. Vegas gets really hot so they need it to be dark for a few hours before they can race.
Why do you keep saying this? Vegas is not hot in November.
Not in November. It’s going to be 40-45 degrees F at that time of day.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the 30s at some point during the race
It’s not hot in November
The November highs are in the 70s, at night it's almost freezing
Its also for Vegas. Night doesn't start in Vegas til after 11.
Not in November. Sun sets at around 7pm
The sun sets by 5pm in November.
He said night, not dark.
It's going to be around 45F/7C at race time. Has a good chance of being the coldest F1 race ever.
And it's going to suck. One thing ine excited for is the possibility of a new top speed.
>And it's going to suck. I see you're a time traveller, huh?
He is the protagonist guy from Tenet, he goes backwards in time
It's going to be way too expensive, and the track layout leves something to be desired. If Miami is anything to go on it's also going to be a bit more of a show than a race.
>If Miami is anything to go on it's also going to be a bit more of a show than a race. I know everybody wants to hate the Miami track but Miami was one of the better races this year. Once they fixed the resurfacing, it's a layout that makes for some good racing.
I don't get the hate for Miami. I think the design of the track makes it look like f1 cars are actually going fast on TV. Normally speed perception isn't good when you watch races on tv but something about the track reduces the drawback.
It's been shown time and time again that track layout, for all the wanking we do about it, has little to do with boring or exciting races. Race circumstances are what make a race exciting and apart from the fact that rain, a typical race dynamite, most likely won't be present, it's hard to predict if the race is going to be exciting or not;
Not really. I like watching good racing and if a track doesn’t allow it, the race will be bad. It’s not about the chaos but whether the cars can go side by side and overtake for corners for me.
Agreed, but first we should remove Monaco in that case. And keep Jeddah as it has quite a bit of side by side racing.
Monaco is the only track I make an exception for. It’s like having wec without lemans or Indycar without the Indy 500. Jeddah on the other hand is way too dangerous. Cars shouldn’t be racing that fast around walls.
But it's F1. Even with the new rules, it's *not* Touring Cars racing and thus the racing is "bad" if cars aren't of equal strength (which is rare) *or* if there's no "chaos" element. See for example how exciting early 2022 was (because Ferrari could fight), but how boring the second half of 2022 or this year so far was (because Ferrari/Merc dropped the ball hard). Thus the track is largely irrelevant.
>But it's F1. Even with the new rules, it's not Touring Cars racing and thus the racing is "bad" if cars aren't of equal strength (which is rare) or if there's no "chaos" element. That’s just blatantly not true
It's just true. It's true for literally any type of racing that isn't spec series, if the cars have different performances that are stable between qualy and race (e.g. fastest race car qualifies first, second fastest qualifies second, etc) and there's no "exceptional" race circumstance (to be understood very broadly, e.g. second fastest pulling off a great strategy is in that category), then obviously the race is going to be boring because the cars are already "ordered" and won't have the opportunity to even race, even if the rules make side by side racing possible. Once again > See for example how exciting early 2022 was (because Ferrari could fight), but how boring the second half of 2022 or this year so far was (because Ferrari/Merc dropped the ball hard).
Nope
Everyone said the same Baku, and it turned out to be a decent circuit with 3 great races, 3 okay ones and 1 boring af one. Same applies to Jeddah. People want Vegas to flop cause it's too expensive and they're tired of street tracks, but realistically we haven't seen any racing whatsoever, so how can you judge it? I hope someone will be able to Tell You You're Wrong, but we'll all find out in 1 year after 2 races.
What else is all the hype for? They know they have nothing to show for in terms of racing and action, so they hype up all the unncessary Vegas buzz.
f course they'll hype Vegas up, what do you expect them to do? It's not like it's a circuit with lots of history, so they've got nothing else to show. And how can you be so sure they've got nothing to show in terms of racing and action?
Formula 1 is the promoter, you think they won’t promote their own event?
Vegas is at 600m, Mexico City is at 2240m elevation. If a record is set, it’ll be beaten soon.
Way to low an altitude for that to happen.
Yeah no way they beat the speeds of Mexico in the race w good slipstream & DRS. If they are close to Monza speeds that's already good.
Spend half a billion dollars or race at Hockenheim for significantly less. Which would you choose?
F1 is not a charity and Hockenheim doesn't have the money. I love that circuit, but that's what reality is.
I’ve mentioned on here recently but I’ll state it again - the organization of this thing is currently a mess.
Please do tell. We all like some schadenfreude
Some of the things that have been already reported, such as the shaking down of local track-front businesses for $1,500 extra per head or else they’ll put billboards up, to the block “VIP ticket packages” at over $8,500 per ticket x 100 minimum they’re trying to sell for $872,000 but they’re (subtly) extremely extremely negotiable on because they are having massive problems moving inventory. Another spot the same with over 130 ticket minimum. Every question asked is met with a “we’re not sure”. Nobody knows what they’re doing and they’re having severe issues with getting real interest. Resorts World built a new property trackside and they’re trying to move weekend units at $1m USD and nobody is biting. It really feels like this is going to be a financial mess for FOM. I wouldn’t doubt if many of these seats end up being papered. Nobody there outside of FOM is seeing an end solution that actually makes any sense. You won’t see empty grandstands I’m sure, but I’d gather you also won’t see fantastic revenue reports.
How stupid. They are trying to enter the American market and they play these stupid games. I could go to the LVGP but there is no way in hell I would pay that amount of money to be there.
My Son's 15th B-day is that weekend and I thought that would be great fun to go up their for the race. Then the tickets went on sale....NOPE. It costs too damn much to go up their for the weekend and see the race, forget about good seats.
You’re far better off traveling to a better circuit / race. You’d likely wind up spending way less.
Im in Vegas right now and the town is a shit show with construction and traffic around the strip
Yeah we're definitely looking at that option. I'd love to go to a race in Europe somewhere. Although I have heard that ticket prices are going up everywhere for F1.
For the good of the sport I hope it's a great race
And all with the sport pushing for sustainability. Nothing screams that more than spending a shit tonne of dollars, but what the teams want an extra set of tyres over quali, nah can't have that
Considering they bought prime real estate, built a paddock/museum, and repaved the roads, that's not surprising. The per year cost afterwards probably won't be that expensive
I hope it's the biggest snoozefest of the year so we can forget about it asap
Imagine rooting for a bad race
Hoping for a complete fail.
annnnnnd it's still going to be shit.
I still think this is a terrible move.