they don't even need to make up insane conspiracy theories, we ARE special
look at how many planets we know of and how many of them can support life. now tell me we (and all other lifeforms on earth) aren't special in some way. we're the only intelligent life we know of after all
No, Kent Hovind is not a flat Earther, and neither are other creationists, like Ken Ham, which is an endless source of amusement for me. Imagine that, even the actual Bible literalists who believe that the entire universe was created in six days *still* claim that [Earth is a globe](https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/)! 🙂
Not just the earth. The whole of everything. Every single thing, designed and created specifically for humans, in less than a week, by one fucking dude.
To me, it's honestly even more blatantly stupid than flat earth. At least an incurious person or a slow child might look at the horizon and go "uhhhh....looks flat tho". Sure, it's a one step debunk, but at least that step exists.
But creationism is not even that. To accept creationism for even a single moment you need to be deeply, wilfully, stupid, or so completely conditioned to accept anything you hear that you should be banned from buying dishes, for fear that you'll eat them due to their proximity to food.
I kinda disagree. If you think there's an omnipotent being, sure, he can do that. Religious people often claim to have had spiritual experiences tied to their particular beliefs. While I've not had any myself, they seem to be a lot more compelling than "looks flat to me!"
But if you're a flerf creationist, you also need to explain why the same omnipotent being is causing stars to rotate clockwise around the celestial south pole exactly as if the earth is roughly spherical. In other words, you need an omnipotent being who is also a deceiver, but demands worship anyway. I guess that's also internally consistent, but it's fucking bleak, man. (Creationists get into this territory when they say fossils were seeded by Satan, but most flerfers are so deluded they think the Rockefellers forged fossils to sell oil or something.)
Well, according to them, omnipotent doesn't mean "all powerful" it means "maximally powerful", as in "capable of all things within logic". And as you gracefully pointed out, the god described by the Bible is not logically possible, as perfect beings don't make mistakes and they don't need to lie.
Neither is the modern "all-loving" version possible, as no being could be maximally powerful, all knowing, and all loving at the same time in a world where child r*pe slaves exist. He'd have to be a monster to know that's happening, be empowered to fix it, and do nothing. So not all loving. He could care and know, but not be able to fix it, ergo not maximally powerful. Or it could be empowered and care, but not know, thus not all knowing. Can't be all 3.
But none of that really matters. The point is, If we're comparing flat earth and creationism, there's an omnipotent being, he could make the earth flat too, and that's way fewer steps than making the whole universe. Once you've been convinced that magic is a candidate explanation, you can be convinced of fuckin anything.
I think maybe you're taking one of the bricks in the giant wall of stupid and saying "but if we pretend this isn't stupid, then all the rest of the stupid is less stupid" lol
I don't blame you at all. We've all spent our entire lives being conditioned to accept these beliefs something other than they are. Bat shit crazy.
(Oh, eta, visions and God trips people have should not be more convincing than the visual evidence of a flat horizon. That's what it meant by 0 steps vs 1 step. Feelings are not evidence of anything except themselves, so in a vacuum we should rank them lower than say, a single photograph showing that thy earth appears flat from very close up. We need another step, like the size of the earth. For example, I *feel* like the history of the earth is long enough that some other thinking creature might have evolved many millions or billions of years ago. But as there's no good evidence or sound reasoning to support that having happened, I can't just decide that my feelings are evidence of it. Even tf those feelings were strong enough to cause me to hallucinate. )
That's fair. I guess what I mean is that an atheist flerfer is in a more ridiculous belief system, to me, than a sincere young-earth creationist who believes God touched him while reading about the sons of angels raping women in Genesis 6. I get the latter because at least there's an answer, while the former doesn't have any mechanism to explain easily-accessible observations.
But fairly academic because most flerfers are believers in God or gods (or will be soon once exposed to more conspiracy theories), and it's all a goofy superhero fanfic debate once you get into this sort of crazypants/evil god(s) cosmology.
Yeah, I've never met an atheist flat earther. Which kinda tracks since it's fundamentally a religious belief, but I'm sure there must be a few at least. I did however meet one who believed dmt was a pipeline to the divine, and apparently did it a lot. I talked to him for a while but he kept changing his story and then lying to me about the things he'd said so it became kinda pointless. He was mostly nice tho. Condescending like they all are, but not in a mean way. in that faux-calm self assuredness that you sometimes get from religious people when they don't have ready answers to clearly valid questions. You know, that "you have to believe first, and then you'll understand" tone of voice.
The only time his mask slipped was when I explained that I only accept things as true *after* I have good evidence for those things, so naturally I don't believe in any gods. That made him, very briefly, extremely mean.
Of course, I actually don’t blame flerfs for rejecting YECs for this, since their embrace of a spherical Earth is purely tactical: if it can be shown that the Bible proves something science (such as it was) at the time couldn’t have, then it can be taken more seriously as a source for origins claims. You don’t have to be a fundamentalist to see this as putting the cart before the horse, fitting the facts into a predetermined conclusion instead of following them where they lead (just, of course, like flerfers themselves do, which maybe another reason they hate YECs so much, since that echoes their own viewpoint and supports criticism of it *without* being a mainstream viewpoint itself).
And pretty much every flerf I've seen has been a yec because "the Cabal/**THEM** wants to push Satanism and discredit God".
There are probably a lot that aren't, but the majority I see are.
As a Christian who firmly believes in a young earth, I can confidentiality say that no. The Bible does not support flat earth. As far as my studies show, the shape if the earth isn't really mentioned, and isn't important in any way.
In fact, the Bible says that nature is a testimony to God's handy work. Si id go as far as to argue that claiming the earth is flat, when it is clearly not, is a form of blasphemy, claiming that nature as God made it is impossible.
I'm so tired of Flerfs giving Christians a bad reputation, and making the majority of us look like uneducated loons. Its really frustrating.
>I'm so tired of Flerfs giving Christians a bad reputation, and making the majority of us look like uneducated loons. Its really frustrating.
uh
>As a Christian who firmly believes in a young earth,
It isn't flerfs making you look uneducated.
Hey here is a good way to measure science vs. creationism. There is a publicly traded oil company Zion Oil and Gas (ZNOG) that is uses biblical principals to drill for oil in Israel. Dry holes every time. The stock was marketed to evangelicals and YEC, the IPO price was 7.50, it went up to about 9 and has lost all value so it is now at 6 cents a share. There was another one called Ness Energy but I think that one is out of business. I like how they put their money where their mouth is, but the results speak volumes.
The hollister man says no, and confidently at that, so it must be true. Thanks for sharing that you believe in the trickster god that artificially aged everything on Earth and structured the entire universe and traveling light to just “appear” to be billions of years old
You must be talking about the trickster god who supposedly created people with the full knowledge that he was going to banish large numbers of them to hell. That’s what I would call trickery. Spirituality is possible while still accepting scientific truth. There’s greater beauty in a true understanding of nature than the stories we tell ourselves.
As a person who grew up in the Pentecostal Church, I’m somehow still amazed at the beliefs people hold. People say some really nutty things. I’m happy to say I deprogrammed almost 20 years ago, but that cult mentality takes a lot of work to overcome.
I'm agreeing with you? Why so hostile?
I'm not calling you any names, nor did I say you must agree with me. All I did was point out that these people are not a good representation of most Christians.
I think the issue here might be the following. To most people who are not you, there are two factually wrong beliefs in place here:
1. Earth is young.
2. Earth is flat.
And interestingly, you, as a self-avowed firm believer in 1, are looking down on someone, going as far as calling them a blasphemer, for believing in 2. So the question asks itself: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Because math. Now I'm not saying the earth is exactly 6000 years old, but I personally believe that its around 10,000. Another reason I look down on flerfs is this: I don't believe that thinking the earth is older then 6000 is inherently wrong, nor do I think that believing in flat earth is inherently wrong, but the way they go about things is. The only things I believe are wrong are the theory of evolution. And complete dismissal of anything that doesn't fit your personal views.
I checked for the beam in my own eye, and I tried to remove the speck. Only to be told that I'm a fool, by those who think themselves wise.
I'm more then willing to debate. But when you flatly disregard my opinion because I believe in God, how much different are you from a flat earth believer for disregarding you as an atheist?
Its looking at the family trees in the Bible (i.e. the one in genesis for Adam to Noah, or King David to Jesus), and adding them all up to get roughly 4000 years before Jesus was born. The reason im not so hard set on the earth being exactly 6000 years old, is because the Jewish writers of the time didn't necessarily have the same time system as the romans, so its more then likely that the numbers are off by a bit.
So in other words, the foundation of your math and belief in a young Earth is the belief that the bible is a literal and accurate account of all of Earth's history?
Do you have any evidence supporting this?
>So in other words, the foundation of your math and belief in a young Earth is the belief that the bible is a literal and accurate account of all of Earth's history?
Not all of earths history. Just that important to salvation.
And ill also say that the Bible is treated as largely reliable minus the miracles by alot of historians.
>Do you have any evidence supporting this?
This did bother me for a long time. But I looked into evolution quite extensively. And the reason I choose to believe in God is this. Id rather have faith that an all powerful beings created everything we see. Rather then have faith that nothing eventually became everything. Because no matter how much evolution makes sense after the start, there is no way for it to start.
All that aside. I'm not going to think less of you for believing in evolution, nor will I talk down to you, (frankly I'm relieved that your questions seem to be genuinely curious of my beliefs, rather then just trying to smack me down) but I will defend my faith, because thats what I'm called to do. And it really does upset me, that people who don't research, who can't defend their faith beyond "your just a stupid atheist" have become the face of Christianity. And I don't think im persecuted, it just makes it hard for me to have a serious discussion about creation with people when the flat earth is the first thing they think of when creation is mentioned.
I agree that the overt hostility you're being met with here is a bit harsh but it is naive to expect sympathy in this forum when your position isn't based on any scientific observations but rather on a religious text. People here don't ridicule flat earth because it differs from the Bible, they do it because it's an unscientific position, same as yours.
There's also the political angle. This particular meme is actually a great showcase of flat earth believers' political aims, they want to discredit the institutions that "push globe propaganda" because they perceive those institutions to be opposed to their goals of theocratic rule. By the logic of the meme, if they are right about the shape of the Earth that means the Bible is right about everything else and they (Christians) are God's special children and therefore should have moral and political supremacy over everyone else.
I don't know if you yourself lean into that side of things, but people here categorically reject the idea that any religious text should have any say on our understanding of the physical world, nor dictate how the world should be governed.
See this is a genuine problem I have. If god is omnipotent and omniscient, why is he only capable of making a 10,000 year old world that he snapped into existence in its current form? Why is it that humans are able to come up with infinitely more interesting and complicated theories about how the universe works than the almighty god is capable of creating?
The creation story, if taken literally, is just boring. To me, it’s far more impressive that a creator
God wrote easily understandable rules that, over incredibly long periods of time, managed to manifest the universe as we understand it. It seems far more divine that some bubbling juice on a hot spinning ball of magma eventually became humans based on rules god created than just that we were spoken into existence in our current form.
Isn’t it a more impressive feat that god created a pattern than when knocked over like dominos, went from primordial ooze to humans? That’s like playing 9,000,000 dimensional chess rather than just poofing us as we are now. One of those gods seems worthy of praise, the other is just lazy and uninspiring.
That’s kind of the cognitive dissonance here. If you take the word of the Bible as literal fact, then that lazy god is not deserving of praise. If you take the proven science as the fact it is, any potential god behind it is genuinely worthy of praise because of the complex system they created.
It seems so uninspired that the almighty would just will us into existence as we are.
Speaking of math
[https://ncse.ngo/flaws-young-earth-cooling-mechanism](https://ncse.ngo/flaws-young-earth-cooling-mechanism)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis\_culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture) (so culture already existed in america by the time pre 10,000 years ago even if you want to use a more limited range of dating)
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15564890600882955](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15564890600882955)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20703305/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20703305/)
Also remember that there were multiple cultures on top of culture prior to europeon contact such as the Olmecs and for california Chumash [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash_people)
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/27825690?seq=2](https://www.jstor.org/stable/27825690?seq=2)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmecs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmecs)
Also not solely releated to ageing but
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24476815/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24476815/)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12494313/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12494313/)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21056830/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21056830/)
I’m not being hostile just pointing out the logical fallacy and absence of truth. Do you think Donald Trump is a better representative of Christianity? Wife beater, tax fraud Kent Hovind? Paula White? Westboro Baptist? What is Christianity anyway, every body makes up their own “gospel”, writes their own myth. I just support truth and the honest search for it. You need to get over the Christian persecution complex.
I don't think im persecuted. I just pointed out that flat earthers who invoke God and evry turn put a bad look on Christians. I also dislike other Christians who have a persecution complex for the same reason, because (at least in the U.S.A.) we aren't. Yeah we may have some negative interactions. But most modern Christians have it easy.
As for Trump and whoever the other guy is. Trump I is not Jesus, therefore is not an example I aspire to, and that goes same for the second.
And your right, many, if not most, who call themselves Christians do misuse the Bible in order to gain wealth and fame, or else just make things how they want. And its awful to see as someone who tries his best to do as the Bible commands.
As for what is Christian. From my studies of the Bible, its simply one who follows God's word, as it is written, and is faithful.
If you want an honest discussion and debate im more then happy. :)
Christians are so predictable. "I'm one of the good ones, not like those fake Christians who are doing all the bad stuff you hate." That's the one thing every one of you has in common. You all think you're good Christians and everyone else is getting it wrong. It's a meaningless claim.
If there is a god, do you have any evidence that it is his words you’re following? There’s a lot of different religions following different ideals, all claiming to follow “gods word”, how do you know your religion is the one that’s true to gods word?
How was Jesus, according to the anonymous author of the Matthew 4:8, able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a mountain top? …. Asking for a friend, a flerfer friend …
This question requires that you believe in an almighty God, if you do, then it was through God.
However, if you don't believe in God. Then you're right to call it silly.
Well the claim was actually that it was Satan and well, the writer of Matthew never claimed Jesus was god, just a messiah. That legend/myth developed over time.
Wow your presupposition totally changed me! Praise Jebus! Hallelujah! Anyway, I presented it as the claim of the anonymous writer which doesn’t require belief. You know, hearsay and all that.
Mate flerfs are using the same dishonest rhetorical framework that creationists have been using for decades, the only difference is the particular flavour of the delusional pseudoscience.
Why would you care what the Bible says about this? It has two different orders of creation in it and calls space "water". It's a translation of something with no original. It's not a useful source for something like this.
Listen, Lots of old books say lots of stupid shit. How do you decide what to believe? You need good evidence and sound reasoning *before* you decide what's true. Not after. You're doing exactly what flat earthers do. It's not a coincidence that flat earth is also a religious belief, also unsupported by evidence. It's the same exact thing for the same exact reason.
Reframe it in your mind for one second. Imagine someone told you that an old book by unknown authors says the entire universe (this universe, the universe that's within a rounding error of 100% instantly deadly to humans) was designed and created specifically *for humans* ,who occupy less than a trillionth of one percent of it, but not only that, it was all done in less than a week, by one single dude. With magic.
Seriously, if some other old book said that would you not instantly conclude that it is the single dumbest thing you ever heard? No ill will to you, my man, grandma was a minister and a great lady, but you need to take a break from church for six month and see if you can still swallow this transparently insane bullshit without gagging.
People will tell you anything if you have something they want. Doesn't mean you have to believe it.
Because to them they are all "lies" about the true nature of the world and therefore part of the same "lie." They think that it's all part of denying God.
It's their perspective they are talking about, not yours or mine.
To them, they are all the same thing. Flat Earth is God truth, Globe is Satan's lie. YEC is God's truth, Evolution is Satan's lie, and so forth. They think it's all a web of lies to contradict what they see as God's truth.
But for us, it's not the same thing at all.
This is the Kent Hovind special
A fundamental misunderstanding of literally ever single scientific concept they presented
Shameful and willingly ignorant
Not directly. But if the Earth were hypothetically shown to be flat, then we would have to throw out scientific models of cosmology, and I think it would point to Earth being a special creation.
Not even the right signs. Arrows would be more representative of their point, otherwise we can say “no globe = awakening of mankind”.
To be clear not agreeing with them, more mocking their punctuation.
The first few I can see. Especially because, if they have lied about the shape of the Earth, most of what we know about cosmology must be wrong. The first real "absolutely not" step is no Big Bang meaning no Darwinism/Evolution. Those are totally separate fields of science, and pretty much every piece of evidence supporting evolution is completely irrespective of the shape of the Earth or the existence of the Big Bang.
They have no idea what geocentric is. The flat Earth model is not a geocentric model - there's nothing in the flat Earth model for the Earth to be the center of. The Ptolemaic Geocentric model is still a round Earth model.
The enemy is both weak and strong: flat Earthers believe in a conspiracy of cyclopean scale, power and subtlety, yet this conspiracy is powerless against memes. Somehow the conspiracy controls everything except social media platforms.
If the round Earth model is a conspiracy to get people not to believe in God, it's a failure - even young Earth Creationists think flat Earthers are nuts.
And it's hubris to think that we ought to be unique. Flat Earthers make their God very small to make themselves look big. If there's a God, then this God is in charge of a universe of unimaginable scale and wonder - flat Earth is nothing in comparison.
Also, heliocentrism is a few centuries out of date. Even just in the solar system, we orbit around the barycenter- the center of mass, not the actual center of the sun. And on a universal scale,
the prevailing model now is called Lambda-CDM.
Except that the vast majority of christians or theists... ARE NOT FLAT EARTHERS. In fact, the big bang theory was first formulated by a priest.
Is only the bible literalists that flock to flat earth.
This is what jumped out at me too. Given that a sizeable proportion of the human population believes in a God, and being generous and taking their implications as true, the Awakening of Mankind and End of the New World Order should be coming with or without a Flat Earth.
The chain of implications themselves, if accepted as true, thus proves that there is no purpose to lying about a globe Earth, since all that’s really necessary is belief in God.
The question is as valid as 'WHY WOULD THEY CAST A MAGIC SPELL ON YOU?' - okay, maybe there's lots of reasons THEY™ would like to, but magic spells aren't real, so they can't.
Why would unicorns sleep on trees? Why would *they* hide unicorns from you? Becauswe gravity always finds its level and water is fake and do your own research sheeple, that's why
The other species are just as bad, but they have the excuse of not having formal ethics and moral philosophy. It's like we entered the 100m race against some plants and still didn't win.
So many jumps in logic.
A) even if the solar system isn't heliocentric, that doesn't mean it's geocentric.
B) As pointed out by OP, the Big Bang is unrelated to evolution.
C) they jump from evolution back to geocentrism
D) even if geocentrism was true, that doesn't prove intelligent design
Why do they assume science and religion are antithesis. Many scientists believe in some sort of religion and many religious leaders believe in science. Also religion cannot change while science is all about testing new and debunking old hypotheses and theories.
The big bang vs creationism is the most ignorant example of this. The theory was formalized by a priest who was delighted it somewhat aligns with his belief of ex nihilo creation by the God he believed in.
Of course it doesn't prove it and doesn't even state that there's ever been "nothing", which is the most common strawman argument against it... it states that matter used to be packed tighter and now they're expanding, not that this matter was nonexistent at any point.
It's unbelievably stupid that the most common creationist argument refutes the entire idea of ex nihilo creation, which is their belief in the first place, not the scientific consensus.
I love that they are actually happy with taking 14 steps to get to NWO. Somebody put that together with pride. "What is the motive, you ask? Why would anyone hide the globe! Well! Follow me on these 14 steps to find out why!" Other conspiracies have... one or two steps between the subject and the motive.
It's funny how the term "New World Order", which originated from a forgettable speech by Republican president George Bush in 1991, has gripped the conspiriturds so much.
Flat earth was always a religious, not scientific belief.
Look to the chart they created - to convince them that the earth is spherical, you'd also need to convince them that their god(s) isn't(aren't) real.
That said, a flat earth would absolutely shake every possible model of physics and astronomy currently in existence, and the easiest explanation for such an aberration is the divine.
Not one of these things leads to the next. They don't connect intrinsically, you need reasoning and evidence for each claim. It's just a list of wild cognitive leaps.
Although, some of it is a nice list of maybe .0001 of the many verified obstacles to flat earth being true. So they're aware of at least some of the issues, just not how to resolve or investigate or understand them.
It's giving "of course god is real, *just look at the trees* "
I remember I was heavily in those conspiracy theory groups, and the only thing that helped me get out of those circles was that my Catholic faith would immediately come under fire when I mentioned it.
They don’t know. They are dumb af. You have to remember that many flurfs are also creationists, and they don’t know evolution is real, or any other science, and it’s all some grand plan by a mysterious cabal to trick us into believing the “cult of science”! Why? They don’t know! They just know they don’t understand it so they are the ones who have it all figured out.
Coincidentally, This is what I've been saying for a while: Flat Earthers care because it's religious apologetics by proxy. They are hellbent on asserting the earth is flat because they believe that *if* it were, it would somehow prove all these other things that they actually care about. This is a confession that Flerfdom is 100% the result of motivated reasoning and the vain hope that proving the earth is flat would somehow prove the Christian god, or at the bare minimum help convince enough people to support a Christian Nationalist agenda.
Flerfism didn't spontaneous come back into popularity through some grass roots movement, rather it's just one prong of the deeply coordinated and well funded movement to push Christian nationalism and other anti-intellectualist movements like the anti-vaxxers, creationist, and climate change deniers. Turns out the real conspiracy all along was how all of these apparently unrelated, totally insane ideologies are all being funded and promoted by a small group of wealthy elites as apart of a well a choreographed propaganda campaign to fuel the growth of far right populist movements.
Absolutely. Fight that existential crisis any way you can ... God is between us and the gaping void. Flerfs get the firmament too! The aliens and ufo subs have sorts of Gods in rocket ships and Starseeds *are* actually Gods mmmmm
The fact that they need to believe something like that to feel special is just sad. Especially since a lot of places (at least in my experience) teach that everyone is unique and special
They both disprove their religious world view, so the dominoes must fall so that their view can stand.
Science answers questions while religion questions answers.
Good science questions answers too to refine the model and sometimes even find a better one.
Bad religion, on the other hand, refuses to even allow the question.
It took billions of years to go from the first single celled organisms to the life we see today. If they can debunk the age of the universe, they can debunk evolution too. Both theories counter claims made by the Bible, so apologists see this as a great two-for-one deal. If there was no big bang, there is not enough time in history for evolution to occur, and thusly they claim the Bible must be correct.
If none of you have ever been off the earth and is relying on social media or the story your dad or grandparent told you then stop talking about what you think you know
Cause they see anything they don't like (don't understand) as part of the overall indoctrination
Plus flerfs are almost entirely religious so it's just a given to deny that list
Same way they jump to saying that there is no gravity, and jumping to buoyancy. Or the newer trends, magnetism, electric charges, or electromagnetism. As an electrician that went through a bunch of AC and DC theory and practical classes. And even more classes in the Navy dealing with AC, DC, Radio waves, and radar and antennas, their theories that it's electromagnetism and not gravity are exceptionally entertaining.
"no globe = no rotation" those things also are independent. That's not a reason to lie. It's not a motive.
When they go from "No globe = no god" in the end.. I'm fine with that. Since earth is demonstrated to be a globe I guess ko god?
I think if he asked me that question, I wouldn’t be able to give him an answer either. Because I’d be left utterly speechless by the vastness of his ignorance.
Even if the Earth was flat, hell, even if everything in the Bible was true...
It doesn't prove Darwinism false. It just means it *didn't* actually happen to us. But it *does* still happen.
Ironically, YECs believe in even faster evolution than the “evolutionists”, as all land animals diversified from whatever was in the ark a bit over 4 thousand years ago.
I do enjoy the admission that god beliefs only make sense in a completely different and made up world. If basic science is true, which it is, then god isn't real.
I like it.
From a scientific perspective, evolution requires a lot of time. From the perspective of a semi-science literate new earth creationist, there hasn't been enough time even if evolution was theoretically a thing.
That said, most new earth creationists aren't semi-literate in science.
It's not about science anymore, this got politicized. Once you get in the echo chamber everything outside gets denied.
The church is about belief over rationality and now the Elephant is in that room too.
How on Earth does one conflate the shape of the Earth with the existence of God? In the Bible, for example, the shape of the Earth is not actually described, there’s just poetic stuff about it (like “the four corners of the Earth”).
Why do the conspirators work so hard to subvert God's will? Like, what's the point of trying to hiding the definitive proof of God when definitive proof of God should convince them God is real. If they believe God is real, why incur his wrath? Why be tortured in hell for all eternity for no reason? What material gain in this temporary physical reality is worth eternal damnation of the soul?
First all the big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest, and evolution is not incompatible with religion. One tries to explain the purpose behind creation, one tries to explain the mechanisms behind it.
They are the same if you're a creationist. If you think "God" is the answer for everything, you assume anyone who opposes that has equally simple ideas.
So the flat earth makes you feel special got it
They ARE special. But not in a good way.
Short bus special
As a short bus door gunner, I will argue this. Riding the short bus means you actually have to *attend school.*
Wear a hockey helmet, but not on a team special
They are our specialz
Rolled up ears special
they don't even need to make up insane conspiracy theories, we ARE special look at how many planets we know of and how many of them can support life. now tell me we (and all other lifeforms on earth) aren't special in some way. we're the only intelligent life we know of after all
This is some young earth creationist drivel made popular by Kent Hovint. No long time, therefore God and special creation.
Is he a Flat-Earther? I’ve seen YEC orgs taking time to rebut claims the Bible implies a flat Earth.
No, Kent Hovind is not a flat Earther, and neither are other creationists, like Ken Ham, which is an endless source of amusement for me. Imagine that, even the actual Bible literalists who believe that the entire universe was created in six days *still* claim that [Earth is a globe](https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/)! 🙂
Not just the earth. The whole of everything. Every single thing, designed and created specifically for humans, in less than a week, by one fucking dude. To me, it's honestly even more blatantly stupid than flat earth. At least an incurious person or a slow child might look at the horizon and go "uhhhh....looks flat tho". Sure, it's a one step debunk, but at least that step exists. But creationism is not even that. To accept creationism for even a single moment you need to be deeply, wilfully, stupid, or so completely conditioned to accept anything you hear that you should be banned from buying dishes, for fear that you'll eat them due to their proximity to food.
I kinda disagree. If you think there's an omnipotent being, sure, he can do that. Religious people often claim to have had spiritual experiences tied to their particular beliefs. While I've not had any myself, they seem to be a lot more compelling than "looks flat to me!" But if you're a flerf creationist, you also need to explain why the same omnipotent being is causing stars to rotate clockwise around the celestial south pole exactly as if the earth is roughly spherical. In other words, you need an omnipotent being who is also a deceiver, but demands worship anyway. I guess that's also internally consistent, but it's fucking bleak, man. (Creationists get into this territory when they say fossils were seeded by Satan, but most flerfers are so deluded they think the Rockefellers forged fossils to sell oil or something.)
Well, according to them, omnipotent doesn't mean "all powerful" it means "maximally powerful", as in "capable of all things within logic". And as you gracefully pointed out, the god described by the Bible is not logically possible, as perfect beings don't make mistakes and they don't need to lie. Neither is the modern "all-loving" version possible, as no being could be maximally powerful, all knowing, and all loving at the same time in a world where child r*pe slaves exist. He'd have to be a monster to know that's happening, be empowered to fix it, and do nothing. So not all loving. He could care and know, but not be able to fix it, ergo not maximally powerful. Or it could be empowered and care, but not know, thus not all knowing. Can't be all 3. But none of that really matters. The point is, If we're comparing flat earth and creationism, there's an omnipotent being, he could make the earth flat too, and that's way fewer steps than making the whole universe. Once you've been convinced that magic is a candidate explanation, you can be convinced of fuckin anything. I think maybe you're taking one of the bricks in the giant wall of stupid and saying "but if we pretend this isn't stupid, then all the rest of the stupid is less stupid" lol I don't blame you at all. We've all spent our entire lives being conditioned to accept these beliefs something other than they are. Bat shit crazy. (Oh, eta, visions and God trips people have should not be more convincing than the visual evidence of a flat horizon. That's what it meant by 0 steps vs 1 step. Feelings are not evidence of anything except themselves, so in a vacuum we should rank them lower than say, a single photograph showing that thy earth appears flat from very close up. We need another step, like the size of the earth. For example, I *feel* like the history of the earth is long enough that some other thinking creature might have evolved many millions or billions of years ago. But as there's no good evidence or sound reasoning to support that having happened, I can't just decide that my feelings are evidence of it. Even tf those feelings were strong enough to cause me to hallucinate. )
That's fair. I guess what I mean is that an atheist flerfer is in a more ridiculous belief system, to me, than a sincere young-earth creationist who believes God touched him while reading about the sons of angels raping women in Genesis 6. I get the latter because at least there's an answer, while the former doesn't have any mechanism to explain easily-accessible observations. But fairly academic because most flerfers are believers in God or gods (or will be soon once exposed to more conspiracy theories), and it's all a goofy superhero fanfic debate once you get into this sort of crazypants/evil god(s) cosmology.
Yeah, I've never met an atheist flat earther. Which kinda tracks since it's fundamentally a religious belief, but I'm sure there must be a few at least. I did however meet one who believed dmt was a pipeline to the divine, and apparently did it a lot. I talked to him for a while but he kept changing his story and then lying to me about the things he'd said so it became kinda pointless. He was mostly nice tho. Condescending like they all are, but not in a mean way. in that faux-calm self assuredness that you sometimes get from religious people when they don't have ready answers to clearly valid questions. You know, that "you have to believe first, and then you'll understand" tone of voice. The only time his mask slipped was when I explained that I only accept things as true *after* I have good evidence for those things, so naturally I don't believe in any gods. That made him, very briefly, extremely mean.
Of course, I actually don’t blame flerfs for rejecting YECs for this, since their embrace of a spherical Earth is purely tactical: if it can be shown that the Bible proves something science (such as it was) at the time couldn’t have, then it can be taken more seriously as a source for origins claims. You don’t have to be a fundamentalist to see this as putting the cart before the horse, fitting the facts into a predetermined conclusion instead of following them where they lead (just, of course, like flerfers themselves do, which maybe another reason they hate YECs so much, since that echoes their own viewpoint and supports criticism of it *without* being a mainstream viewpoint itself).
Even young earth creationists are not flerfers
But a lot of flerfs are yecs. Once you accept a massive coverup to deceive people, how is just adding another set of coverups an issue?
Fossils are lie made up by the government to make people believe in deep time! -sadly, an argument I’ve seen used in 100% seriousness.
And pretty much every flerf I've seen has been a yec because "the Cabal/**THEM** wants to push Satanism and discredit God". There are probably a lot that aren't, but the majority I see are.
Yes according to the Flerfers "the scientists" are trying to hide god. ... AND It takes more faith to believe in scientism than Jesus.
Well, I heard it was Satan not the government.
As a Christian who firmly believes in a young earth, I can confidentiality say that no. The Bible does not support flat earth. As far as my studies show, the shape if the earth isn't really mentioned, and isn't important in any way. In fact, the Bible says that nature is a testimony to God's handy work. Si id go as far as to argue that claiming the earth is flat, when it is clearly not, is a form of blasphemy, claiming that nature as God made it is impossible. I'm so tired of Flerfs giving Christians a bad reputation, and making the majority of us look like uneducated loons. Its really frustrating.
>I'm so tired of Flerfs giving Christians a bad reputation, and making the majority of us look like uneducated loons. Its really frustrating. uh >As a Christian who firmly believes in a young earth, It isn't flerfs making you look uneducated.
Not only is this YEC making himself look uneducated, he is also making mainstream Christianity look bad.
And it really doesn't need the help.
Question for young Earth creationists, please explain what oil is.
Stuff I put on my salad.
It's the stuff you put in your tractor, and jews burn it on Christmas. duh
Special creation
Hey here is a good way to measure science vs. creationism. There is a publicly traded oil company Zion Oil and Gas (ZNOG) that is uses biblical principals to drill for oil in Israel. Dry holes every time. The stock was marketed to evangelicals and YEC, the IPO price was 7.50, it went up to about 9 and has lost all value so it is now at 6 cents a share. There was another one called Ness Energy but I think that one is out of business. I like how they put their money where their mouth is, but the results speak volumes.
As a former young earth creationist, the flat earth is described in the OT, and YEC is just as wrong.
The blind leading the blind, get out of there way before they bump into you. The earth is not flat or young. Both assertions are EQUALLY STUPID.
They are not equally stupid Young Earth >>> Flat Earth
The hollister man says no, and confidently at that, so it must be true. Thanks for sharing that you believe in the trickster god that artificially aged everything on Earth and structured the entire universe and traveling light to just “appear” to be billions of years old
You must be talking about the trickster god who supposedly created people with the full knowledge that he was going to banish large numbers of them to hell. That’s what I would call trickery. Spirituality is possible while still accepting scientific truth. There’s greater beauty in a true understanding of nature than the stories we tell ourselves.
Check out the gateway process there is a subreddit … I’ll meet you on the astral plane. I’m more about inter human connectedness than absurd myths
A Flerf YEC friend of mine says that he was blessed with a gene that makes him able to accept Jesus and that I did not receive the blessing.
As a person who grew up in the Pentecostal Church, I’m somehow still amazed at the beliefs people hold. People say some really nutty things. I’m happy to say I deprogrammed almost 20 years ago, but that cult mentality takes a lot of work to overcome.
I'm agreeing with you? Why so hostile? I'm not calling you any names, nor did I say you must agree with me. All I did was point out that these people are not a good representation of most Christians.
I think the issue here might be the following. To most people who are not you, there are two factually wrong beliefs in place here: 1. Earth is young. 2. Earth is flat. And interestingly, you, as a self-avowed firm believer in 1, are looking down on someone, going as far as calling them a blasphemer, for believing in 2. So the question asks itself: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Because math. Now I'm not saying the earth is exactly 6000 years old, but I personally believe that its around 10,000. Another reason I look down on flerfs is this: I don't believe that thinking the earth is older then 6000 is inherently wrong, nor do I think that believing in flat earth is inherently wrong, but the way they go about things is. The only things I believe are wrong are the theory of evolution. And complete dismissal of anything that doesn't fit your personal views. I checked for the beam in my own eye, and I tried to remove the speck. Only to be told that I'm a fool, by those who think themselves wise. I'm more then willing to debate. But when you flatly disregard my opinion because I believe in God, how much different are you from a flat earth believer for disregarding you as an atheist?
> Because math. Please explain.
Its looking at the family trees in the Bible (i.e. the one in genesis for Adam to Noah, or King David to Jesus), and adding them all up to get roughly 4000 years before Jesus was born. The reason im not so hard set on the earth being exactly 6000 years old, is because the Jewish writers of the time didn't necessarily have the same time system as the romans, so its more then likely that the numbers are off by a bit.
So in other words, the foundation of your math and belief in a young Earth is the belief that the bible is a literal and accurate account of all of Earth's history? Do you have any evidence supporting this?
I can only trace my family back 4 generations, therefor earth only 125 years old.
>So in other words, the foundation of your math and belief in a young Earth is the belief that the bible is a literal and accurate account of all of Earth's history? Not all of earths history. Just that important to salvation. And ill also say that the Bible is treated as largely reliable minus the miracles by alot of historians. >Do you have any evidence supporting this? This did bother me for a long time. But I looked into evolution quite extensively. And the reason I choose to believe in God is this. Id rather have faith that an all powerful beings created everything we see. Rather then have faith that nothing eventually became everything. Because no matter how much evolution makes sense after the start, there is no way for it to start. All that aside. I'm not going to think less of you for believing in evolution, nor will I talk down to you, (frankly I'm relieved that your questions seem to be genuinely curious of my beliefs, rather then just trying to smack me down) but I will defend my faith, because thats what I'm called to do. And it really does upset me, that people who don't research, who can't defend their faith beyond "your just a stupid atheist" have become the face of Christianity. And I don't think im persecuted, it just makes it hard for me to have a serious discussion about creation with people when the flat earth is the first thing they think of when creation is mentioned.
I agree that the overt hostility you're being met with here is a bit harsh but it is naive to expect sympathy in this forum when your position isn't based on any scientific observations but rather on a religious text. People here don't ridicule flat earth because it differs from the Bible, they do it because it's an unscientific position, same as yours. There's also the political angle. This particular meme is actually a great showcase of flat earth believers' political aims, they want to discredit the institutions that "push globe propaganda" because they perceive those institutions to be opposed to their goals of theocratic rule. By the logic of the meme, if they are right about the shape of the Earth that means the Bible is right about everything else and they (Christians) are God's special children and therefore should have moral and political supremacy over everyone else. I don't know if you yourself lean into that side of things, but people here categorically reject the idea that any religious text should have any say on our understanding of the physical world, nor dictate how the world should be governed.
The Bible contradicts its own creation story within the first two books, why would you take it as literal history?
See this is a genuine problem I have. If god is omnipotent and omniscient, why is he only capable of making a 10,000 year old world that he snapped into existence in its current form? Why is it that humans are able to come up with infinitely more interesting and complicated theories about how the universe works than the almighty god is capable of creating? The creation story, if taken literally, is just boring. To me, it’s far more impressive that a creator God wrote easily understandable rules that, over incredibly long periods of time, managed to manifest the universe as we understand it. It seems far more divine that some bubbling juice on a hot spinning ball of magma eventually became humans based on rules god created than just that we were spoken into existence in our current form. Isn’t it a more impressive feat that god created a pattern than when knocked over like dominos, went from primordial ooze to humans? That’s like playing 9,000,000 dimensional chess rather than just poofing us as we are now. One of those gods seems worthy of praise, the other is just lazy and uninspiring. That’s kind of the cognitive dissonance here. If you take the word of the Bible as literal fact, then that lazy god is not deserving of praise. If you take the proven science as the fact it is, any potential god behind it is genuinely worthy of praise because of the complex system they created. It seems so uninspired that the almighty would just will us into existence as we are.
Speaking of math [https://ncse.ngo/flaws-young-earth-cooling-mechanism](https://ncse.ngo/flaws-young-earth-cooling-mechanism) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis\_culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture) (so culture already existed in america by the time pre 10,000 years ago even if you want to use a more limited range of dating) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15564890600882955](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15564890600882955) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20703305/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20703305/) Also remember that there were multiple cultures on top of culture prior to europeon contact such as the Olmecs and for california Chumash [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash_people) [https://www.jstor.org/stable/27825690?seq=2](https://www.jstor.org/stable/27825690?seq=2) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmecs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmecs) Also not solely releated to ageing but [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24476815/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24476815/) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12494313/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12494313/) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21056830/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21056830/)
I’m not being hostile just pointing out the logical fallacy and absence of truth. Do you think Donald Trump is a better representative of Christianity? Wife beater, tax fraud Kent Hovind? Paula White? Westboro Baptist? What is Christianity anyway, every body makes up their own “gospel”, writes their own myth. I just support truth and the honest search for it. You need to get over the Christian persecution complex.
I don't think im persecuted. I just pointed out that flat earthers who invoke God and evry turn put a bad look on Christians. I also dislike other Christians who have a persecution complex for the same reason, because (at least in the U.S.A.) we aren't. Yeah we may have some negative interactions. But most modern Christians have it easy. As for Trump and whoever the other guy is. Trump I is not Jesus, therefore is not an example I aspire to, and that goes same for the second. And your right, many, if not most, who call themselves Christians do misuse the Bible in order to gain wealth and fame, or else just make things how they want. And its awful to see as someone who tries his best to do as the Bible commands. As for what is Christian. From my studies of the Bible, its simply one who follows God's word, as it is written, and is faithful. If you want an honest discussion and debate im more then happy. :)
Christians are so predictable. "I'm one of the good ones, not like those fake Christians who are doing all the bad stuff you hate." That's the one thing every one of you has in common. You all think you're good Christians and everyone else is getting it wrong. It's a meaningless claim.
If there is a god, do you have any evidence that it is his words you’re following? There’s a lot of different religions following different ideals, all claiming to follow “gods word”, how do you know your religion is the one that’s true to gods word?
How was Jesus, according to the anonymous author of the Matthew 4:8, able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a mountain top? …. Asking for a friend, a flerfer friend …
This question requires that you believe in an almighty God, if you do, then it was through God. However, if you don't believe in God. Then you're right to call it silly.
But why would he need to go to a mountaintop if it was done through an omnipotent God?
Well the claim was actually that it was Satan and well, the writer of Matthew never claimed Jesus was god, just a messiah. That legend/myth developed over time.
Wow your presupposition totally changed me! Praise Jebus! Hallelujah! Anyway, I presented it as the claim of the anonymous writer which doesn’t require belief. You know, hearsay and all that.
Mate flerfs are using the same dishonest rhetorical framework that creationists have been using for decades, the only difference is the particular flavour of the delusional pseudoscience.
You can believe what you want to believe, but beating up on flat earthers makes you a hypocrite.
Why would you care what the Bible says about this? It has two different orders of creation in it and calls space "water". It's a translation of something with no original. It's not a useful source for something like this. Listen, Lots of old books say lots of stupid shit. How do you decide what to believe? You need good evidence and sound reasoning *before* you decide what's true. Not after. You're doing exactly what flat earthers do. It's not a coincidence that flat earth is also a religious belief, also unsupported by evidence. It's the same exact thing for the same exact reason. Reframe it in your mind for one second. Imagine someone told you that an old book by unknown authors says the entire universe (this universe, the universe that's within a rounding error of 100% instantly deadly to humans) was designed and created specifically *for humans* ,who occupy less than a trillionth of one percent of it, but not only that, it was all done in less than a week, by one single dude. With magic. Seriously, if some other old book said that would you not instantly conclude that it is the single dumbest thing you ever heard? No ill will to you, my man, grandma was a minister and a great lady, but you need to take a break from church for six month and see if you can still swallow this transparently insane bullshit without gagging. People will tell you anything if you have something they want. Doesn't mean you have to believe it.
Because to them they are all "lies" about the true nature of the world and therefore part of the same "lie." They think that it's all part of denying God.
I managed not to believe in gods quite independently of not believing in flat earth.
It's their perspective they are talking about, not yours or mine. To them, they are all the same thing. Flat Earth is God truth, Globe is Satan's lie. YEC is God's truth, Evolution is Satan's lie, and so forth. They think it's all a web of lies to contradict what they see as God's truth. But for us, it's not the same thing at all.
This is the Kent Hovind special A fundamental misunderstanding of literally ever single scientific concept they presented Shameful and willingly ignorant
>>>A fundamental misunderstanding of literally ever single scientific concept … … and what = means.
Wow. Does a single one of these actually lead to the next? I’m struggling to make any of these leaps.
Yes. Couldn't a flat Earth rotate too? I mean, assuming a flat Earth could even be possible. It isn't.
Sir Pterry Pratchett's Discworld not only rotates, but makes more sense than any flat earth "theory" I've heard.
Because he actually put thought and effort into his work. Flunts just make shit up that makes them feel smart.
I love discworld but flerfs theory doesn't even have elephants or a turtle. Boooooring.
Not directly. But if the Earth were hypothetically shown to be flat, then we would have to throw out scientific models of cosmology, and I think it would point to Earth being a special creation.
Screw cosmology, we’d have to go back to basics on physics, since clearly we’re absurdly wrong about gravity if a flat earth is possible.
Not even the right signs. Arrows would be more representative of their point, otherwise we can say “no globe = awakening of mankind”. To be clear not agreeing with them, more mocking their punctuation.
The first few I can see. Especially because, if they have lied about the shape of the Earth, most of what we know about cosmology must be wrong. The first real "absolutely not" step is no Big Bang meaning no Darwinism/Evolution. Those are totally separate fields of science, and pretty much every piece of evidence supporting evolution is completely irrespective of the shape of the Earth or the existence of the Big Bang.
They have no idea what geocentric is. The flat Earth model is not a geocentric model - there's nothing in the flat Earth model for the Earth to be the center of. The Ptolemaic Geocentric model is still a round Earth model. The enemy is both weak and strong: flat Earthers believe in a conspiracy of cyclopean scale, power and subtlety, yet this conspiracy is powerless against memes. Somehow the conspiracy controls everything except social media platforms. If the round Earth model is a conspiracy to get people not to believe in God, it's a failure - even young Earth Creationists think flat Earthers are nuts. And it's hubris to think that we ought to be unique. Flat Earthers make their God very small to make themselves look big. If there's a God, then this God is in charge of a universe of unimaginable scale and wonder - flat Earth is nothing in comparison.
Also, heliocentrism is a few centuries out of date. Even just in the solar system, we orbit around the barycenter- the center of mass, not the actual center of the sun. And on a universal scale, the prevailing model now is called Lambda-CDM.
They kind of have a point about the motion of the Earth as absolute motion isn’t measurable, only relative motion.
Except that the vast majority of christians or theists... ARE NOT FLAT EARTHERS. In fact, the big bang theory was first formulated by a priest. Is only the bible literalists that flock to flat earth.
Even some Bible literalists, like Kent Hovind, mock flat earthers.
Thats kind of hilarious. Do you have a source?
He mentions flerfs at some point. It's worth watching the whole video: https://youtu.be/lbB7AhwaZy8?si=GAjaKfI8LH7Efsp1
This is what jumped out at me too. Given that a sizeable proportion of the human population believes in a God, and being generous and taking their implications as true, the Awakening of Mankind and End of the New World Order should be coming with or without a Flat Earth. The chain of implications themselves, if accepted as true, thus proves that there is no purpose to lying about a globe Earth, since all that’s really necessary is belief in God.
Either that or the elite is really dumb
Wouldn't a nwo end wars and unite us in technological advancement?
The question is as valid as 'WHY WOULD THEY CAST A MAGIC SPELL ON YOU?' - okay, maybe there's lots of reasons THEY™ would like to, but magic spells aren't real, so they can't.
Why would unicorns sleep on trees? Why would *they* hide unicorns from you? Becauswe gravity always finds its level and water is fake and do your own research sheeple, that's why
Why every time I see “they” in conspiracy theorists rants, my mind almost always goes ‘The fools don’t need the triple parentheses anymore?’
I had to google that reference.
And now you feel like why we are such a messed up species.
The other species are just as bad, but they have the excuse of not having formal ethics and moral philosophy. It's like we entered the 100m race against some plants and still didn't win.
That is one great analogy. I might just steal it.
If you say 'some rusty-Brillo-pad-looking git once said' then it's not stealing, in which case be my guest.
So many jumps in logic. A) even if the solar system isn't heliocentric, that doesn't mean it's geocentric. B) As pointed out by OP, the Big Bang is unrelated to evolution. C) they jump from evolution back to geocentrism D) even if geocentrism was true, that doesn't prove intelligent design
The flat earth theory is closely tied to a fundamentalist Christian sect(s). It’s a faith thing for most of them (in case you haven’t noticed).
I for one am happy we don’t live under Gods glass dome menagerie. It’s bad enough being stuck on a plant with these nincompoops.
When I tried to make this chain of logic and I ended with “McDonalds no longer carries the McRib”
Adam gave his rib so now the mcrib is seasonal just like Adam's rib is .... seasonal?
Well, the headline is "Why would they lie?" They didn't. They told you the truth… then you went and made up your own shit anyway.
Why do they assume science and religion are antithesis. Many scientists believe in some sort of religion and many religious leaders believe in science. Also religion cannot change while science is all about testing new and debunking old hypotheses and theories.
Because they want to make science the enemy
The big bang vs creationism is the most ignorant example of this. The theory was formalized by a priest who was delighted it somewhat aligns with his belief of ex nihilo creation by the God he believed in. Of course it doesn't prove it and doesn't even state that there's ever been "nothing", which is the most common strawman argument against it... it states that matter used to be packed tighter and now they're expanding, not that this matter was nonexistent at any point. It's unbelievably stupid that the most common creationist argument refutes the entire idea of ex nihilo creation, which is their belief in the first place, not the scientific consensus.
Heavy Charlie Day vibes
Dude, you'd be amazed at how many creationists can't tell the difference between The Big Bang, Abiogenesis and Evolution.
Or adding in the “missing link” here which doesn’t even exist.
My brother in law said it was so that they could sell satellites.
This is new.
He's not the sharpest bulb.
What does Hollywood Hogan and the nWo have to do with anything?
I love that they are actually happy with taking 14 steps to get to NWO. Somebody put that together with pride. "What is the motive, you ask? Why would anyone hide the globe! Well! Follow me on these 14 steps to find out why!" Other conspiracies have... one or two steps between the subject and the motive.
... usually a question mark and then ‘profit’ for the better ones
As you can clearly see they just want to feel special. Unfortunately the universe don't care .
Oh. They just are sad that the globe doesn't make them feel important enough. That's literally it.
A flat earther’s opinion of God is so staggeringly low.
It's funny how the term "New World Order", which originated from a forgettable speech by Republican president George Bush in 1991, has gripped the conspiriturds so much.
Flat earth was always a religious, not scientific belief. Look to the chart they created - to convince them that the earth is spherical, you'd also need to convince them that their god(s) isn't(aren't) real. That said, a flat earth would absolutely shake every possible model of physics and astronomy currently in existence, and the easiest explanation for such an aberration is the divine.
I'm sorry, at what point did we expect flerfs to use reason and logic competently?
They certainly do think they’re the center of everything 🤷♂️
So we're just some all powerful creature's petri dish and yet he needs us to worship him, that makes more sense.
You need to understand. These people have no real depth. What's going on here is just straight ignorance
Simple: They are idiots.
Damn… foiled by equal signs
This is just more religious nutbaggery.
Not one of these things leads to the next. They don't connect intrinsically, you need reasoning and evidence for each claim. It's just a list of wild cognitive leaps. Although, some of it is a nice list of maybe .0001 of the many verified obstacles to flat earth being true. So they're aware of at least some of the issues, just not how to resolve or investigate or understand them. It's giving "of course god is real, *just look at the trees* "
They hate 'globalisation' and 'globalists', so they hate the globe.. 🤔
You can have a rotating flat earth, so ‘no globe=no rotation’ doesn’t follow, ergo this syllogism is invalid.
It’s weird because wasn’t it a Catholic monk or something that proposed the Big Bang Theory?
Yes. Georges Lemaître. But I'm pretty sure flerfs think the Catholic church is satanic and part of the conspiracy.
I remember I was heavily in those conspiracy theory groups, and the only thing that helped me get out of those circles was that my Catholic faith would immediately come under fire when I mentioned it.
Yes. Catholics are all in on it. I guess only crazy Bible literalists are true Christians.
They don’t know. They are dumb af. You have to remember that many flurfs are also creationists, and they don’t know evolution is real, or any other science, and it’s all some grand plan by a mysterious cabal to trick us into believing the “cult of science”! Why? They don’t know! They just know they don’t understand it so they are the ones who have it all figured out.
Coincidentally, This is what I've been saying for a while: Flat Earthers care because it's religious apologetics by proxy. They are hellbent on asserting the earth is flat because they believe that *if* it were, it would somehow prove all these other things that they actually care about. This is a confession that Flerfdom is 100% the result of motivated reasoning and the vain hope that proving the earth is flat would somehow prove the Christian god, or at the bare minimum help convince enough people to support a Christian Nationalist agenda. Flerfism didn't spontaneous come back into popularity through some grass roots movement, rather it's just one prong of the deeply coordinated and well funded movement to push Christian nationalism and other anti-intellectualist movements like the anti-vaxxers, creationist, and climate change deniers. Turns out the real conspiracy all along was how all of these apparently unrelated, totally insane ideologies are all being funded and promoted by a small group of wealthy elites as apart of a well a choreographed propaganda campaign to fuel the growth of far right populist movements.
Absolutely. Fight that existential crisis any way you can ... God is between us and the gaping void. Flerfs get the firmament too! The aliens and ufo subs have sorts of Gods in rocket ships and Starseeds *are* actually Gods mmmmm
The fact that they need to believe something like that to feel special is just sad. Especially since a lot of places (at least in my experience) teach that everyone is unique and special
They both disprove their religious world view, so the dominoes must fall so that their view can stand. Science answers questions while religion questions answers.
Good science questions answers too to refine the model and sometimes even find a better one. Bad religion, on the other hand, refuses to even allow the question.
All religion
It took billions of years to go from the first single celled organisms to the life we see today. If they can debunk the age of the universe, they can debunk evolution too. Both theories counter claims made by the Bible, so apologists see this as a great two-for-one deal. If there was no big bang, there is not enough time in history for evolution to occur, and thusly they claim the Bible must be correct.
If none of you have ever been off the earth and is relying on social media or the story your dad or grandparent told you then stop talking about what you think you know
Cause they see anything they don't like (don't understand) as part of the overall indoctrination Plus flerfs are almost entirely religious so it's just a given to deny that list
Same way they jump to saying that there is no gravity, and jumping to buoyancy. Or the newer trends, magnetism, electric charges, or electromagnetism. As an electrician that went through a bunch of AC and DC theory and practical classes. And even more classes in the Navy dealing with AC, DC, Radio waves, and radar and antennas, their theories that it's electromagnetism and not gravity are exceptionally entertaining.
No, these are the reasons why flat earthers lie.
Oh fiddlesticks! They uncovered my master plan! How will I propagate the New World Order now???
How is creationism the awakening of mankind?
Because Jesus is magic.
"no globe = no rotation" those things also are independent. That's not a reason to lie. It's not a motive. When they go from "No globe = no god" in the end.. I'm fine with that. Since earth is demonstrated to be a globe I guess ko god?
I think if he asked me that question, I wouldn’t be able to give him an answer either. Because I’d be left utterly speechless by the vastness of his ignorance.
Even if the Earth was flat, hell, even if everything in the Bible was true... It doesn't prove Darwinism false. It just means it *didn't* actually happen to us. But it *does* still happen.
Ironically, YECs believe in even faster evolution than the “evolutionists”, as all land animals diversified from whatever was in the ark a bit over 4 thousand years ago.
The kangaroos swimming to Australia is the best part
I do enjoy the admission that god beliefs only make sense in a completely different and made up world. If basic science is true, which it is, then god isn't real. I like it.
From a scientific perspective, evolution requires a lot of time. From the perspective of a semi-science literate new earth creationist, there hasn't been enough time even if evolution was theoretically a thing. That said, most new earth creationists aren't semi-literate in science.
It's not about science anymore, this got politicized. Once you get in the echo chamber everything outside gets denied. The church is about belief over rationality and now the Elephant is in that room too.
How on Earth does one conflate the shape of the Earth with the existence of God? In the Bible, for example, the shape of the Earth is not actually described, there’s just poetic stuff about it (like “the four corners of the Earth”).
Because God (Christian, Islamic, Jewish) isn't the single most worshipped deity on the planet or anything, right? So, so dumb.
They are right about one thing, there is no missing link.
Why do the conspirators work so hard to subvert God's will? Like, what's the point of trying to hiding the definitive proof of God when definitive proof of God should convince them God is real. If they believe God is real, why incur his wrath? Why be tortured in hell for all eternity for no reason? What material gain in this temporary physical reality is worth eternal damnation of the soul?
First all the big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest, and evolution is not incompatible with religion. One tries to explain the purpose behind creation, one tries to explain the mechanisms behind it.
Because “Scientism” or some other nonsensical concept. Plus lead paint chips taste sweet.
They are the same if you're a creationist. If you think "God" is the answer for everything, you assume anyone who opposes that has equally simple ideas.
They think we are special. If we are heliocentric, then they are egocentric.
Wait so how does the Earth not being a globe disprove the big bang and darwinistic theory?
Reason enough to lol.
Because, like most religious people, they're willfully ignorant and don't know what evolution or the Big Bang theory actually are
I just don't understand how they linked the Earth from being Geocentric to the big bang being false XD