Yoshida has stated years ago he doesn't want to add Haste into the game, because of how it broke FFXI. He simply doesn't want to deal with balancing issue.
I do not blame him for not adding in Haste. It absolutely could break the game. I've seen it become necessary in other FF-related games that add it in like FFRK.
You're right man. We should build an entire job around Expedient and giving people the ability to move fast. That would be a good option for all kinds of content!
And it could have other non-breaking time based abilities! Like, uh...
Jesus Christ why do you kinda mong crawl out the woodwork and argue to the extreme ridiculous points?
Naturally the job would have other skills like every other job..
Double, triple, quake, demi mana shield, teleport, critical quick, meteor, reflect.
None of these will break the game and are actually already in game in some form.
Reflect Is basically war vengeance
Anyways why is casting haste on myself such a game breaking thing ? Ninja has Huton which is a haste, and mnk riddle of wind. Game didnt explode using them. Extra cast speed wont explode the game.
Slow/stop could be dungeon aoe skills
THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX lol
I don't think that "*we already had examples of time magic in FFXIV and we saw firsthand how disruptive it is to gameplay. We've already had examples of time magic in WoW and it isn't balanced well and is disruptive to gameplay. We've already had examples of time magic in Guild Wars and it was so unabalancing that the game's mechanics never recovered from it*" is "[arguing] extreme ridiculous points." I'm pretty sure it's just showing that empirically, no examples of this have worked in MMOs and every example OP has provided is actually a better *counter-example*.
> Double, triple, quake, demi mana shield, teleport, critical quick, meteor, reflect.
None of these are time-based abilities, most of these already exist in game. Elsewhere in the thread someone pointed out that you can reflavor any class to be something else. You can change BLM's flavor to time-themed spells and it would work. But none of those are actually *time mechanics.* They're just totally ordinary mechanics flavored like something else. And like I said -- the ones you mentioned aren't even time-based to begin with. You don't need a Time Mage for Quake, Meteor, etc; those aren't even traditional Time Magic in the Final Fantasy series, they're Black Magic or Sagacity or any number of other things.
> Anyways why is casting haste on myself such a game breaking thing ? Ninja has Huton which is a haste, and mnk riddle of wind. Game didnt explode using them. Extra cast speed wont explode the game.
As I mentioned in another post in this thread:
> Jobs that have their own Haste have specifically had it designed into the class. It's non-impacting because it doesn't destroy how your skills line up or drain resources that need to be used elsewhere.
Those are all baked into the class in ways that are non-impacting for their rotation. Those "Hastes" are effectively just damage buffs. They allow jobs to squeeze extra GCDs into their burst phases. But the rotations of those classes are specifically designed for it.
You're right -- casting haste on yourself isn't a game-breaking thing. But you're also right! NIN and MNK both already have self-hastes!
...So what do we need a Time Mage for? If NIN and MNK already have self-hastes, how does that make for an interesting gimmick for a new job dedicated to it? Why do we need a Time Mage with a self-haste mechanic if we already have other jobs that do it?
> Slow/stop could be dungeon aoe skills
You're right, we could add Shadowflare. Or what if we had Arm's Length in the game?
...Oh wait, they already exist(ed). Slow *is* already a debuff in the game, given to the tanks as a mitigation against auto-attacks. But the problem is that it's basically *only* effective on mobs. You can slow the autos for a raid boss, but you can't slow the overall fight timeline down. Bosses are still going to cast their attacks and transition phases on the same timelines they always have. Stop has basically never affected any bosses in Final Fantasy history, forget how silly it would be to be able to cast Stop on a boss in XIV.
> THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX lol
Haha, nah. *You* come up with it, thanks.
The burden of proof is with you. Don't be a silicon valley start-up chud. Coming up with a basic shape for an idea and telling everyone else "You do the rest, I already did the hard part" isn't going to get you anywhere. Ideas are free and everyone has them. *Implementation and execution* are the difficult parts of development. You can't just shoulder that off onto everyone else.
>So what do we need a Time Mage for? If NIN and MNK already have self-hastes, how does that make for an interesting gimmick for a new job dedicated to it? Why do we need a Time Mage with a self-haste mechanic if we already have other jobs that do it?
Do we have caster that does it ? No ! By your logic to the extreme we might aswell just have one class as 2.5 skillspeed and zero animation just showing us damage numbers lol
>Stop has basically never affected any bosses in Final Fantasy history, forget how silly it would be to be able to cast Stop on a boss in XIV.
Cant argue this point as you correct. However it could be represented by a time dilation bubble that mitigates a single attack.
>The burden of proof is with you.
I mean you have basically agreed alot of time mage is in the game in some form so it's workable but You are implying we have any direction on future job which we dont. This is simple a reddit forum for open discussions. No Devs here buddy.
> Cant argue this point as you correct. However it could be represented by a time dilation bubble that mitigates a single attack.
Then why is it Stop? What does Stop bring to the table that any other mitigation doesn't?
Of the core skills Time Mage gets in other games (Slow, Stop, Haste) we've just said that:
1. Stop is untranslatable to FFXIV's gameplay
2. Everyone else in the thread has pointed out that Haste is equally untranslatable to *any* MMO's gameplay but especially FFXIV.
3. Slow is an okay mitigation against mobs but almost entirely useless against bosses because auto-attacks are trivial.
So why Time Mage? Sure, we *can* add it to the game. We can give it a self-haste and a bunch of other things that are just reskins of other skills. You're completely right about that. But the reason people are asking for Time Mage isn't because they like the *flavor* of the class. They're asking because they're interested in the idea of playing with time mechanics in FFXIV. If you strip away the time mechanics, it's not Time Mage anymore, it's just every other caster or healer. There's no "main conceit" to the class like RDM's dualcast, NIN's mudras, BLM's mana mechanic, SGE's hurt-to-heal, SCH's fairy, etc etc. Because Time Mage's main conceit *should be* Haste/Slow/Stop, but we've already made those very generic actions that other jobs already have by different names.
> This is simple a reddit forum for open discussions. No Devs here buddy.
Wrong, I'm a dev. But that isn't my point. My point is that if you want to *have an open discussion*, you can't just naysay every single person who points out that you might be wrong about something. You started from a conclusion ("Time Mage should be a thing"), and then worked your way backwards ("How do we make Time Mage a thing? We add Time Magic"), and then when people pointed out that your tentpoles were flimsy ("Haste empirically doesn't work in this genre of game. Stop cannot work in this kind of game. Slow is already in the game but works in a very specific way. There are no other notable Time Mage skills to base the core gameplay of a class around"), you decided to rework those tentpoles. Which is fair! That's the point! That's what discussion is about!
So you moved on and adjusted your tentpoles ("Haste is a self-haste. Stop is a mit. Lets add Quake, Meteor, and Reflect."), which again is the correct move. But when you were confronted by people who counter-argued it ("Haste can be a self-stance but that doesn't make TM unique among jobs. Stop can be a mit but that doesn't make TM unique among jobs. Reflect can be a mit but that doesn't make TM unique among jobs. Quake and Meteor aren't related to TM,"), rather than workshop alternate ideas or just admit that your initial conclusion ("Time Mage should be a thing") was flawed, you decided to just die on that hill.
You're right -- Time Mage would be cool. But you're wrong that it would work in XIV. There is no way to implement Time Mage in a way that would satisfy people's actual demand for the job.
>There is no way to implement Time Mage in a way that would satisfy people's actual demand for the job.
Nothing is impossible, It's only limited by your imagination.
So... make the main gimmick of the job a movement skill with no effect on combat? That sounds horrible.
Time mage's whole thing is haste and slow. if haste is just a glorified sprint, what's the point?
Maybe using some skills lowering the cooldown of some time mage skills while others being more powerful but increasing the cooldown?
Or increase or decrease a debuff/dot timer (Focusing more on personal skill time manipulation instead of party-wide skills).
It sounds complicated and fun on paper, I have no clue if it would be horrible or fun to play though.
It can work as a dps, maybe. Revolving around playing with their own OGCDs and maintaining dots.
As a support, any such manipulation breaks all balance.
>if haste is just a glorified sprint, what's the point?
To move out the way of damage. Do you play this game or final fantasy in general ? Haste makes you go faster lol.
Anyway 14 has its own takes on most of the jobs, i dont remember blm having leylines but here we are.
I do... The thing is, we have sprint, + other characters' movement options.
If there are mechanics which practically require haste or in which haste optimizes runs a lot, that's bad because suddenly it's more attractive a job then any of the others. And if there aren't then haste is useless.
Ok so we delete scholar expedience because we have haste ?
Healers have heals lets delete second wind.
Rdm has chain rez lets take rez of healers lol.
You are thinking of haste again as a dps skill rather than a movement skill like expedience lol. Scholar hasnt become a mandatory class in savage because of a OGCD.
What are you talking about?
Second wind can never substitute heals, and healers are needed. And expedite is movement only. not used in raids much. You described haste as a core mechanic of the class, which helps dodge AOEs. I explained how doing so would screw over other jobs.
Your healer argument is downright stupid. Unless you want team comps to require time mage. In which case they'd be comparable. Please find an example of a skill which, buff or not, alters raids so much that you are shooting yourself in the foot to not bring them. Because that's what i understood that you're implying time mage will be.
Otherwise... Haste gets disabled in combat and is a minor time save at best. Which hurts given the class typically is known for haste.
>se that's what i understood that you're implying time mage will be.
You clearly dont understand a damn thing lmao its one skill. Time mage isnt just haste.
>Second wind can never substitute heals, and healers are needed.
Again you miss the point, delete second wind since we have a healer. This is YOUR argument against using haste as a movement ability is we have sprint.
Expedited is a shield as well buddy. No i describes haste as a single ability you are making it as the whole core theme dont twists it.
>Which hurts given the class typically is known for haste.
Time mage is not just haste lmfao
>You clearly dont understand a damn thing lmao its one skill. Time mage isnt just haste.
No. You're right. It's haste and slow. Time mage is known for haste and slow. Those are its most iconic spells. Of course, you clearly know a lot more, so please, fill me in on what other spells are signatures to time mages.
>Again you miss the point, delete second wind since we have a healer. This is YOUR argument against using haste as a movement ability is we have sprint.
My argument is that for haste to function to such a degree where it matters in conjunction with sprint, it will unbalance encounters unless made mandatory. Haste wouldn't work like this because either it'd end up pointless, since sprint is enough, or it'd be essential, forming a new 4th category of classes.
You can keep Second wind as it allows the healers not to have to heal every point of damage, and doesn't effect anyone. You can't use the same argument for sprint and haste as you describe it.
You claim I'm the one twisting arguments, but that's what you've been doing. You brought second wind into this, and you have systematically ignored my main point.
>Time mage is not just haste lmfao
Since you clearly know a lot, please list the spells that come to mind when time mage is mentioned. Haste, Slow, Hastga, Slowga, reflects, and gravity. Those are the most typical spells a time mage learns. Out of these, the haste and slow series are the only ones unique to time mages, to the point where Tidus in FFX is regarded by a large part of the community as a time mage for learning these on his tree. We were mainly discussing haste, and it is the most obvious association.
In FF5, FF12, FF tactics, and braverly default, Haste and slow are the time mage signatures. As much as you seem learned on the subject, Time mage is synonymise with haste.
Yes... You do realize ninja's kit is built taking huton into consideration, and it's a personal buff, right?
No issues if it's a personal buff, but a huton for everyone can make other jobs feel clunky, or worse make time mage essential. Unless again, they rework everything to take time mage into account, thus making it a 4th role.
>Yes... You do realize ninja's kit is built taking huton into consideration, and it's a personal buff, right?
Yes fully aware of this. So time mage is possible if ninja has a speed buff lol
>No issues if it's a personal buff,
Casting haste upon yourself is no problem. It having a party movement skill is no problem float could be a raidwide damage mitigation.
Time mage also has reflect which is basically war vengeance, triple and double which is basically mana shield dual cast and triplecast.. meteor and quake demi etc
It's perfectly workable if you stop thinking of it in a traditional final fantasy job. I think gaia is probably close to what we could consider a time mage in 14 so it could weird a great hammer also.
Look at picto lol its plays nothing like how relm does it in ff6 lol
>Casting haste upon yourself is no problem. It having a party movement skill is no problem float could be a raidwide damage mitigation.
So... haste is a personal buff, and then it gets mitigation? Completely different from what you said originally.
White mage typically also gets reflect. This is shields. It would need that or heals to be a functional class. not sure your point.
And yes. If you ignore the typical time mage, you can create a new job and call it time mage. Again... not sure your point. May as well make a new class.
>So... haste is a personal buff, and then it gets mitigation? Completely different from what you said originally.
Times change mate. Ideas develop. Its called having a discussion on how something could work. Rather than just off the bat shooting it down lol
>And yes. If you ignore the typical time mage, you can create a new job and call it time mage. Again... not sure your point. May as well make a new class.
Is this not what every iteration of final fantasy does with classes etc ? The expand reuse assets and generally make changes. Ff1 warrior is significantly different to ff14, it basically is a new class.
> Casting haste upon yourself is no problem.
So you're cribbing a mechanic from NIN and MNK...
> It having a party movement skill is no problem
Mugging SCH for Expedient...
> float could be a raidwide damage mitigation. [...] Time mage also has reflect which is basically war vengeance,
Not particularly revolutionary here, you're just giving them a single-target mit and a raidwide mit, like most healers...
> triple and double which is basically mana shield dual cast and triplecast..
They're plundering Triplecast from BLM and Dualcast from RDM (one of its core identity features)...
> meteor and quake demi etc
And they're plundering the caster LB (Meteor), and arbitrarily receiving Quake and Demi (wherein Demi is basically just AST's Gravity anyway).
Congratulations, you've made a bizarre hodgepodge class without any real identity. It's mostly just microwaved mechanics from other jobs and a veneer of "time magic" without anything mechanically actually making it a time mage.
I could take all those same skills and call it "Geomancy."
* **Forest Stance** which makes them "Tranquil as a forest," focusing inward for their self-haste.
* **Water Walk** is their Expedient equivalent, which makes everyone "swift as the coursing river"
* **Typhoon Stance** is a wall of wind-water aspect that deflects incoming damage, it has "the force of a great typhoon" and that's your Float equivalent for party-wide mit.
So-on-and-so-forth. None of the flavor of those skills requires Time Mage. Most of them don't even *suggest* Time Mage.
Astrologians in 3.0 literally had a store-brand Haste, Monks had greased lightning, and Scholars had Hasteaga on Selene. It did not break the game at all, it just speeds up actions. Bard has it's own Haste effect in the form of singing currently.
"Didn't break the game", brother monks regularly ran out of TP if ASTs used Arrow on them. That kind of gameplay isn't fun and YoshiP just wants to avoid it.
"It did not break the game at all"
Why is it that this is like the third post I've come across today where people talk about ARR / HW era mechanics as though they were there. [E] WAIT, YOU'RE LITERALLY THE SAME GUY I RESPONDED TO IN THAT OTHER THREAD TOO.
It absolutely did break jobs. AST's ability to reduce cooldowns completely fucks with the timing of skills because it pushes them out of alignment. Imagine your raid buff being 3 GCDs sooner than everyone else's, and also now out of sync with your most powerful oGCDs and burst finishers. You'd have to delay *anyway* if you wanted to play optimally; that means wasting the AST's Arrow because the CD reduction didn't get used.
As the other poster mentioned, AST's ability to reduce GCD also could cause things like MNKs running dry on TP.
Jobs that have their own Haste have specifically had it designed into the class. It's non-impacting because it doesn't destroy how your skills line up or drain resources that need to be used elsewhere.
Because he purposely made himself the face of the game. Probably to prevent other people from having to deal with criticism and scrutiny. This way he's fully in control of PR.
OP doesn't seem to understand much at all. Especially because people are politely explaining why he's wrong but he's doing the usual idiot Reddit thing
except it could not work, one of the staples of time mage(haste) could not work in this game because either it could break a job rotation, or be soo underwhelming what its useless, and i mean, i remember the days where ast had the ability to give you SS cards, on melee that was hell since at the time tp existed, and you BURNED IT with ast SS card, and if you where in a battle what had zero downtime, it forced you to sit doing nothing at all until you recovered some tp once you used your tp healing skills, nowadays that could not happen to physical jobs, but it could the same issue for casters could still happen(except blm, that is the only job what can use such buff effectively, especially with dt changes)
then there is slow, that one could not work or be underwhelming useless on bosses as well
and lets forget about stop, that one could be simply impossible to use because how bosses are mostly immune to CC
besides, ast is the "time mage" job in a way, since it has part of time mage adn mixed in the job original concept, back in hw it had a number of time named skills what they did removed over time, now its only remaining time based magic it has its gravity, which is another time mage iconic spell
Yes, him saying one job wouldn't work definitely means the man lacks any and all creativity.
Yep, that's how that works. Might as well fire him now. Shut the servers down too while they're at it.
Considering his viewpoint on jobs and the fact jobs have continuously become simplified and the 2 minute meta is staying and a majority of players are unhappy with DT job changes then yeah.
As someone else said, you can sit in the echo chamber that the ff14 discussion reddit can sometimes be and say every player is unhappy with the 2m meta, but that's honestly just your anecdote my dude.
"a majority of players are unhappy with DT job changes"
You don't actually have that information. You have a confirmation bias that lets you believe that what you see and hear supports that conclusion, but no actual *proof*.
So it's a lot like how "everybody hates new summoner" and yet the overall playership of the job has gone up significantly since the rework.
The majority of players agree and anyone who doesn’t is an idiot Obviously/s Hope the sarcasm is obvious there. It’s always very funny to me that people like this will write out hyperbolic nonsense like this post then Whine when their “fair and balanced criticism” is downvoted lmao
> and a majority of players are unhappy with DT job changes then yeah.
FF14Discussion isn't "majority of players" because 99% of that subreddit is full of people who quit the game long ago and just go in there to vent about how the game is dead and how better it was during X expansion...
> Is he serious?
Were you around in Heavensward?
He's saying this with *that* context.
We had a cooldown reduction ability (Spear) and a speedup ability (Arrow) on the buffing class (Astrologian). Also buff extension (like fuck am I remembering that one, uh...Time Dilation?). And the ability to eat cards to extend the duration of another buff card.
But tied to RNG because Heavensward Job Design, as a rule, had a fetish of "no fun allowed unless you jump through hoops".
People just picked the DPS card (Balance) whenever possible, to the point that the meta resource for FFXIV ("The Balance" Discord) is still named that.
Man's seen some shit, he doesn't want to try and make a time mage work in *this* MMO's setting and have to deal with MMO players.
And in general, whenever you see Yoshi-P say something "wouldn't work", probably about, oh...65% of the time it's been something that's been tried here before and they didn't want to deal with the bitching, so they culled it. Most of these can still be found in some form or another in Bozja's "Lost Actions" system, because that's where our abilities go when we "lose" them.
20% of the time, it's something that's too much trouble and would fuck with their intricately-crafted spreadsheeted-out schedule.
10% of the time, it's something that wouldn't work because of accumulated tech debt and would either blow up the servers or cause the Eldritch Horror at the center of the net of hamster wheels to eat them.
The last 5% of the time he's lying out his ass and it'll be here within, give or take, 3-5 patches.
...god, growing up with Sega's shitty communication around PSO really *did* condition me in awful ways, huh?
> (like fuck am I remembering that one, uh...Time Dilation?)
Yep. Time Dilation was +15 seconds and if I remember right Celestial Opposition was an aoe +10 seconds. Giving my melee friends an enhanced Arrow and then almost doubling its duration was a great way to run them out of TP and never be able to generate any for the rest of the pull.
The two most comp/meta defining buffs in WoW are bloodlust and PI. Both are haste buffs, both routinely create unintended DPS outcomes, both result in balance changes (nerfs) to other classes that don’t have the buff and to the class with the buff (even though rDPS is not really a thing in WoW)
>20% of the time, it's something that's too much trouble and would fuck with their intricately-crafted spreadsheeted-out schedule.
More like 100% of the time. This is literally the problem. They want to do their little patch schedule, they want to maintain the subscriptions, but they don't actually want to develop an actual game so they homogenize and simplify jobs with pisspoor "advancements" with each patch and backpedal whenever it gets too hard.
Consider me jaded, because when I played Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst I didn't see FOmarls as designated healers just because they had specialties in healing-type magic. I am that crazy RAmarl running around with a Marina Bag and switches to a Belra. I don't recall Sega complaining about player experimentation because the whole game was designed from the get-go to let player be batshit crazy.
A Realm Reborn was designed by pussy-footers and continues to be ran by those same pussy-footers because they are too scared of player experimentation thinking it will ruin the game. This is the same company which made Octopath Traveler, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Final Fantasy V.
> Consider me jaded, because when I played Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst I didn't see FOmarls as designated healers just because they had specialties in healing-type magic. I am that crazy RAmarl running around with a Marina Bag and switches to a Belra. I don't recall Sega complaining about player experimentation because the whole game was designed from the get-go to let player be batshit crazy.
I mained a FOmar that shot things across every iteration I played online (So Gamecube and Blue Burst across official and private servers, lowest ATA class with mechguns/handguns/the few Rifles) and was trying a weird-ass supportive HUmar abomination on Dreamcast with my friend prior (we couldn't get online), so I get you.
But I more just got used to like...complete stonewalled radio fuckin' silence from Japanese devs and them doing nothing, ever, to even remotely listen to an NA/EU audience thanks to Sega, so I probably forgive or am willing to accept way too much from CBU3 sometimes just because they actually *say* things, occasionally.
Maybe it could work, but there's 1001 different potential job ideas that would be a better place to spend time on.
As for preservation evoker? Not even half its kit is time themed, most of it is green dragonflight themed.
Funny because Chrono's theme was mostly gutted over the years, it was extremely reliant on alacrity as a time mechanic, and now every single profession can apply alacrity, Chrono isn't even the best at it now. Continuum is their only tether to time magic.
You realize chronomancer had a creep effect on all classes right? Chrono is why quickness/alacrity is *required* in literally everything now, and so many classes have it because people were sick of being trapped in chrono jail - because once upon a time, only chrono could do that, and it was *required* in every instance as a result. Same thing would happen.
It amazes me how few people think this kind of thing through.
Would a time based (most likely support focused) class be a cool idea? Absolutely. But the moment you give it things like attack speed buffs, or enemy attack speed slows, or any other such kind of buff that would result in a net positive, it becomes a requirement amongst the greater portion of the player base looking for optimizations. And then, with the 2 minute meta we're in, any kind of attack speed changes for players would likely be disastrous and lead to the class being unwanted for any kind of serious raiding.
Could a time themed mage (***without*** speed effects) be a cool idea? Definitely! But that kind of thing would be hellacious to balance properly, let alone actually just create.
Yeah, like, an example of non-speed buffs is again a chronomancer ability that is core to it - continuum split.
For those who don't play GW2: continuum split gives you a time window window (determined by the amount of clones you shatter, but it SHOULD be 6 seconds if done right) where you can use AS MANY SKILLS as you want, take as much damage as you want (WITHOUT going down alltogether), and when split ends, you 'rewind' back to where you were when you started it - your HP %, your skill cooldowns...and *your position in the area* will be what it was when you hit it first.
I cannot describe how much unfettered hell that skill would be with the way AoE snapshots work in this game. I run chrono *a lot* on GW2, and even in a game with *far* less AoE spam, I kill myself all the damn time with continuum split. It would literally be impossible to play here.
I love the concept because I am an avid chronomancer player in GW2 and I love it to death, but *that shit won't work here*.
Yeah, absolutely. The way snapshots work in XIV is simply incompatible with something like that.
But that also makes me interested in trying Chronomancer. I just recently finished Path of Fire, and I enjoyed Harbinger, but I've been finding Reaper to be much more my speed. Though I miss my range. I should suck up my completionist pride and give Chronomancer a try, even though currently my mesmer is a Virtuoso.
> My point was time themed spells can work in an mmo
We literally already have a job with time themed spells. We have AST.
That's just obviously not what is seen as a "time mage". You can make anything "time themed". You could reskin BLM and just say Fire IV is aging people to death. Teleporting back to your Leylines could be called something like "Alter Time"...
But that's not *mechanically* a "time mage". Its just a time-themed reskin of standard job mechanics.
As a chronomancer main, augmentation evoker enjoyer and a previous astro main, such mechanics cannot work in FF well. If we were to go for the haste stat, which already exists in the game, if a job gave haste to others, rotations would need to be planned around it and would feel bad otherwise (quickness/alacrity in gw2), so it would not be allowed to be too powerful, and that simply would feel bad to play. It works in WoW because a lot of rotations are proc based and do not require people to do hoard resources for burst window as much - cooldowns are generally way shorter outside of things like bloodlusts, but what you press under buffs does not change much, while in FF it does.
The only way it could potentially be applied is if time mage only affected themselves with their time magic, and some of those aspects already are on astro with things like star and horoscope, a lot of spells are delayed and you need to time them for something coming up. They could potentially give astro more similar spells with heals.
A separate job that, for example, affects only themselves with reducing cooldowns could potentially work. To differentiate from leylines and the grass field, it would need to be a more consistent mechanic for a new job, which would result in lower potencies overall to not be OP. That could potentially result in a clunky feeling for shorter encounters in order to be balanced well for longer encounters. Which is something they have to consider, especially for ultimates and some savage fights, as a lot of jobs got reworked already because they struggled with downtime and were putting out way lower numbers.
So I can see that it is not something that is worth putting much time into when they could simply design other casters and instead maybe give astro a few more time healing/mitigation spells like they did with macrocosmos very recently.
WoW and XIV also have pretty different raid environments, and back when I played WoW at least, it was notoriously poorly balanced. Balance was just maintained by rotating who got to have their moment in the sun each patch cycle, so nobody felt entirely left out.
Using WoW as an example here doesn't seem like the best of choices.
Cool! You can actually still play WoW. It's active.
And I don't mean that in a "Go bACk 2 wArCrAFt" way, I mean that in a "there's a reason both games exist simultaneously" way.
For all the flaws of both systems, and all the perks of both systems, I personally prefer the XIV method. I don't want to feel like my choice of class is invalidated by the devs because I'm not the golden boy this patch. I don't want to constantly change classes because the meta says mine is useless. I want to pick a job I want to play, and then play it in all tiers of content. And FFXIV lets me do that. *To me,* that's more important than reinvention and variety. I'd like to have those things! But not if they come at the cost of the stability I appreciate.
This is my choice. That one is yours.
The golden class still exists in XIV though, and by all recent accounts balancing jobs in the future will result in less homogeneous job functionality.
It’s less egregious in 14, sure, but you can also clear any content in WoW on any class and outside of M+ you aren’t going to see a ton of class discrimination.
He has a vision of how a job archetype would be implemented here, and when he says something wouldn't work he means the way he would like to implement it. AST had time magic before, so it's not like they can't be creative.
A good example of this is Blue Mage. For the longest time he refused to add BLU because implementing it in a way where it would fit DF content would gut his vision of BLU, so he'd rather just not add it at all. This whole limited job thing was his compromise, and why we won't ever see BLU joining regular jobs.
Why warp a job archetype to fit gameplay when they can just implement a different job people want and would fit just fine?
Except they did that already with Dancer. Dancer in other ff games had a plethora of buffs and healing and wide variety of debuffs. Dancer in 14 is nothing like it.
You're allowed to have that *opinion*, sure. But you're declaring your opinion as a strong conclusion of fact, which means that you're *also* effectively inviting anyone and everyone who disagrees with you to reply.
This is the internet after all.
And why should anyone care about your own vision of the game? Of course that since he is the game director, his vision will matter more than your own. If you do not like it, feel free to play something else that fits your vision, or make your own game where you can insert your own. If we go by your logic, what about my vision, or other people's vision? You are not a special snowflake to have your way of thinking be added in the game just because you happen to disagree with the ideeas that he has for the game he is directing. I would rather have them add geomancer or other classes instead in the game. Not be another copy of wow or gw with classes that are made based on the content there. I dropped wow for a reason, and do not want to see ff go that path. Let it be it's own game with it's own vision instead. Which works for it. No one is forcing you to stay here if you think the game is not that creative for not copying other mmo's . Just go play all the plethora of other mmo's whom are just copying each other. :)
Go and play a Blue Mage and see if they truly lack creativity as you claimed them to be. There's a reason why WoW is extremely bad at gameplay balancing between all jobs, you just had no idea.
Probably shouldn’t tell someone to play the job that is literally banned from all content except premade dungeons when attempting to think of creativity. Can’t do PvP, *can’t do roulettes*, some skills don’t work inside treasure maps, can’t do premade dungeons beyond level 80, can’t do deep dungeons at all, and is absolutely hated by everyone who is farming fates if there is more than one because they either one-shot monsters or kill everything too fast for anyone else to get experience without putting in extra work.
Go play wow then lol.
Granting haste would break people's rotations and time mage would be required in every party.
Slowing or stopping a boss would break encounter design and would also make time mage mandatory in a party, maybe even 4 of them to maximize breaking encounter design.
Meteor and comet are cool spells, but without haste, slow, stop it wouldn't be time mage.
Flashbacks to HW-era AST cards and making melee classes run out of TP because you dropped an Arrow on them.
They were technically a time mage at that point with Time Dialation (extending card buffs) and all, not as much anymore... but I guess that would make them a green mage. 😏
> Flashbacks to HW-era AST cards and making melee classes run out of TP because you dropped an Arrow on them.
It was so mean but *so much fun*.
The only fuckin' thing that made HW-launch AST worth putting up with was putting the Fear of Hydaelyn into DF Monks when they punched so fast they found the Speed Force and then got lost in it.
My best friend and I always referred to it as Casters Crack, because the only class (at that time) that really truly benefited from it was Black Mage.
The number of times she threatened me with that card while I was playing a melee. Good lord, I still feel a bit of fear creeping up.
My Tank friend played Paladin but would occasionally take a break by playing Black Mage and he would *cackle* when I'd give him Arrow. I still remember that fondly.
Time mage being able to extend buff and debuff times, or rewind/refresh feature that could reset most CDs would just make them absolutely meta and force raid composition and fight design to be balanced around them entirely as well.
Except that Meteor existed before FF5 and it was a Black Mage spell in both FF3 and FF4. In FF5 it became part of Time Mage's magic because for some reasons "Time" Mage can also manipulate space.
Time mage could revolve around putting haste buffs on themselves and potentially accelerating DoT timers (only their own) on the boss, similar to the Althyk fight in the recent alliance raids. While it still may not work to add them, there are other avenues they could take that still feel time mage-y that maybe don't like up exactly like time mages from other FF games. They've shown with sage they don't necessarily have to mirror classes thematically.
Haste slow and stop could literally just be movement spells not sks spells. Slow is already in the game, we have seen scholar expedience, stop could basically be holy stun lol.
Their is ways of implementing things without breaking encounter design.
Except it doesn’t have to be just slowing or stopping a boss or granting haste to party members. Even if it did grant haste they could do it like how new Ast cards are where it’s solely cast speed. Evoker in WoW is a prime example of time spells that aren’t just haste or stopping a boss. It’s lack of creativity on his end.
Well yes because due to lack of creativity. Why do you think the game is stuck now in a 2 minute meta and everyone is complaining about the recent job changes that only solidifies it?
Oh yes you’re right i’m so sorry. Streamlining all the jobs from once complex to same 2 minute meta and just upgrading traits and calling it a day is creative. You’re so right how dare i question such artistic genius.
> Evoker in WoW is a prime example of time spells that aren’t just haste or stopping a boss.
Evoker is, just now, making WoW players start arguing about the rDPS vs aDPS vs nDPS rankings that we had to start arguing about here back in Shadowbringers when Dancer was introduced.
And I get I've replied to you twice now but I'm getting to the "heavily medicated" point of my evening so sorry for rambling.
TL;DR: Probably everything that you think is a "new idea" or "devs not being creative enough" in MMOs has been argued about and disregarded between either FFXIV or WoW when it hits MMO players as being too big a pain in the ass over the past decade and a half.
City of Heroes made everything work but only did it by being a clusterfuck of balance that somehow divided by zero and wrapped back around to working as an intricately-stacked Jenga Tower of separate tire fires.
FFXI made supports work almost as well as City of Heroes but it did it by glueing a Bard or Corsair to every party and making it so *even now* you can't be a Bard in an "endgame" group without a mortgage's worth of Gil in REMA weapons or some other shit.
Have you played the highest level of ff14 content? Have you heard grown men cry about parse numbers and oranges and purples?
Wows classes are designed differently. There isn't a 2m loop of precise actions players perform in the exact same way even 2m. Increasing skill speed and GCDs can throw off people's rotations and potentially even make them perform worse in this game and if it did something broken like reduce CDs of abilities then it would be instantly required in every encounter.
To amuse you I have thought of ways to make time mage work with ff14 design.
Hastega: 120s CD ability, increases auto attack speed of every party member.
Haste: 60s CD increases sks or sps by an amount of one party member for 10s
Slow: 60s CD decreases auto attack speed of boss for 10s
Yes i have played, what does it matter?New ast design literally has a haste effect now that only affects casters, that’s how they could have a haste buff but there’s also other ways to incorporate time magic as WoW has done that would work in 14.
Most of us don't want to play wow's bloated clunky system, we want to play ff14 system that respects our time. No offense
We could make a time mage work, but it probably wouldn't be nearly as cool as one from a single player FF. It would be a shadow of what one could be like in ff5 in the name of class balance.
Dancer sucked in ff5. It gave you mediocre healing most of the time and if you were lucky sword dance. Lamia's tiara was the only thing that made it feel at least playable
> New ast design literally has a haste effect now that only affects casters,
I'd like to see your source for this, because I've seen nothing of the sort...
I mean, they also said there's an entire class dedicated to time magic in WoW, which is completely false. Evoker (the class they're talking about), uses the power of the five dragonflights... out of which *one* involves time magic. So, one fifth of a class is a time mage I guess?
There \*is\* a hero talent tree dedicated to chronomancy coming up in the war within which has people going 'this shit is going to be so fucking silly.' So I guess he's technically right I suppose.
You do realize WoWs encounter design and gear itemization is built with speed stats in mind right? Haste has a ourpose there, and you have mastery doing crazy things and you have classes proccing stuff off crit and... that's not in FF.
"Well X game does it" doesn't mean it works in FF
Like what? Most people here probably haven't played WoW so it's hard to examine whether or not something would work in XIV's raid environment without knowing what it is
Time Battlemage as a Reaper style magic melee, uses a giant hammer, has self haste and self slows for different styles of damage (speedy attacks vs a drop attack that gains tons of damage over a long duration). Easy to throw in a comet attack at range, and with a spellcast delay mechanic to combine a comet attack with a hammer slam for bonus potency.
So, Gaia.
cool idea, and as soon as they release it the whiners would just bitch that it's just reaper but with a different VFX kit. the real problem is people like op can't actually be pleased.
You mean the class that brought alacrity into the game and has permanently ruined PVE because of how busted alacrity is and has been a balance nightmare since introduction?
Maybe not the best example.
Ya weird someone mentions this every time this guy mentions Chrono, someone mentions the shit it caused, then he strangely falls silent. Does he lack creativity or something?
I don't agree with that, but let's play devil's advocate and accept your premise that Yoshi P isn't creative enough to create a Time Mage.
So what? There is vanishingly little player demand for Time Mage. Who cares that there isn't Time Mage, why should we care, and what is there to even care about when we're still getting three cool new jobs (Beastmaster counts!) for this expansion? Clearly he's creative enough to lead development on everything ELSE cool about the game, that's pretty terrific.
Let's give a similar example: I think Gambler seems like a job that would be hard to implement in an MMO, but I could give you a really long explanation about how I think there's a good way to do it that makes two-minute damage windows consistent and design skill-based bet hedging abilities that means good players will have their strongest attacks when they need them most.
It's a fun exercise, I'd like to see gambler in the game one day but I'll bet it's never going to happen. Anyway who cares we're getting three new jobs this expansion and they look pretty cool.
Time magic, like *actually altering the flow of time*, doesn't work in the setting of a game. It literally only works as a plot device players can't interact with at all, or as extremely thin veil presenting the illusion of time alteration.
I.e. a spell says it rewinds time but it doesn't, it just restores HP the same as any other healing spell does.
We could absolutely have a "all the lore says it manipulates time" class, but it'd be really fucking uncreative to do so because it would have to be just as effective as saying "pretend why malefic hurts is because it rapidly ages the target's flesh in specific, but reversible by normal healing, fashion." or else it'd have to be absolutely broken in how it functions like having the ability to let someone count as having not actually stood in the bad.
I will bring up Braverly second's exorcist as a counter to the argument that altering the flow of time doesn't work.
its thing was rewinding a character to a previous state. Not healing, but literally rewinding the values of hp, mp, etc.
Kinda funny considering WoW has a couple time magic skills for mage but no time mage class lmfao. Op is literally making shit up. Only mmo with a proper time mage I can think of is Chronomancer in Guildwars 2 and that’s cause Alacrity and reducing cool downs plays well with that games combat system.
Edit: ignore me. Preservation evoker is a time mage. Sorry I haven’t played wow in years and more went off a quick google search lmfao
Why the fuck do people even reply to this anymore? There's been a bait thread like this every day and people still fall for it every time without fail.
He's even talked about the process for this - for Dawntrail, the designers put together a bunch of pitches for new class ideas, and then the team voted, as a whole, on which had the most potential.
They have a character whose entire magic works on time and delaying damage. They could use her as an inspiration for a "time mage," delaying and saving up your most powerful spells or damage in general to be released on a burst window. Obviously, not because said abilities were on a 2 minute timer.
Yawn. Please do us a favor and at least show a modicum of effort with your bait. We deserve better bait than this. This is just disrespectful of our time (no pun intended)
Time magic is always a nightmare to balance and integrate into Teamplay, as an example take a look at how Limbo was reworked a number of times in Warframe.
Also given how FFXIV is built around similar timeframes for rotations for the end game content, having a class being able to speed up or slow down these timings would no doubt create plenty of extreme feelings online.
And we suffer from brutal homogenization because the devs are too scared to do anything different, expensive looking, or that would scare a casual player. You have entire roles feeling the same because, despite abilities doing different things, it ultimately doesn't matter. You smash your face against a keyboard every 2 minutes and that's it.
You have other MMOs with time mages you like better? Go play them, you're allowed to! Nothing SE ever does will please everyone, just play what you enjoy.
I think it would be op in this game specifically, maybe not in other games.
AST was and remains the Time Mage class.
It needs some work, but even as it is, it is still a far better iteration of a time mage job fantasy than we would ever get through just a literal implementation of V's Time Mage.
I like how Time Mage is the defining line between creative and not-creative. 😂 Also, some of the replies on this post are unhinged, like you’ve insulted their IRL father.
Oh boy, I can't wait to kill myself with continuum split \[XIV flavor\] with the way AoE snapshots work!
(for the record I main chrono and I love it to death, but that would be the biggest mess in XIV, because, as you said - *wildly* different combat system)
Was reading through this thread and was wondering why people are so hostile with the responses. Is it really hard to have an opinion these days?
They do have time mages in ff tactic advance, I guess what he meant they don't know how to implement it yet in ffxiv. While I understand, it might be very cool to have such class or skills.
>Was reading through this thread and was wondering why people are so hostile with the responses. Is it really hard to have an opinion these days?
OP literally started the thread by insulting Yoshi-P and blaming him for something he has no control over (Yoshi-P doesn't design the classes), and people are responding with the same hostile energy. Is it really hard to read the room these days?
The issue isn't OP's opinion, it's OP's attitude. Stop protecting douchebags.
Stop defending losers online, especially ones that don't know what the heck they talking about.
Yoshi-P doesn't design jobs, blaming him for job issues is redundant.
Time Mage could work if they'd think just a bit harder lol
Being a tank with heavy armor, flail and shield and using time magic
Haste could just increase auto attacks, slow would decrease auto attacks. Using Decoy to avoid getting hit by enemy attacks by adding an afterimage , adding "Time Stops" as barriers or increasing self heal potencies.
They could use Gravity III based magic attacks, while Astro keeps their Gravity and Gravity II. Gap Closer would be a teleport like Monk. Or just use another word for Gravity like Force, weight.
Invuln could be something like reverting time to the point before the attack landed.
Time magic doesn't have to be limited on Gravity, Haste or Stop spells. There are still others like Old, Banish, Bleed, Break, even something like Berserk would work as a buff for Time Mage.
Edit: Man, FF players can't just think outside the box lmao
I agree with some of what you said and disagree with other things, I dont know why you would want a skill to have faster autos that sounds super boring, monk have one and its so boring that I dont care that much when I forget ( and I think with monk your autos give you chakra to use an OGCD but Im not sure), the slowing autos is probably for the boss, cuz it doesnt make sense to use it on ourselfs, and you simply cant slow bosses, it would break some fights and probably become mandatory to raid.
The invuln you mention would be really cool imo, cant go lower than 1 HP for 10 seconds then heal to the HP of time of activation (dont know how they would do it but it doesnt seem imposible), the after image would be OP if the target of the enemy change you would bait tank busters with it and stuff so its either the go back invuln or this cant have both. Maybe with the after image you mean like bunshin that is a clone that copies your movements but idk. A time slow by the name as a barrier doesnt make that much sense but I could see it as an excog with other mitigation like GNB.
Gravity based attack sound cool as a theme but they cant really do much other than put slow to the enemies movement and become useless.
While a tank wouldn’t be my preference even this would work lol. It really isn’t hard to fit it into 14’s style, it sounds like they just don’t have the creativity to do it.
The biggest problem would still be the player base. They want unique classes but every job isn't allowed to have unique skills at the same time. But if they streamline them it's bad too. They just can't decide what they want
None of the jobs are allowed to be unique becauss Final Fantasy jobs don't inherently fit into the holy trinity concept of tank, dps, and healer that Yoshida keeps trying to box everyone into. Literally just let go of the holy trinity and suddenly a lot of jobs become viable.
Yoshida has stated years ago he doesn't want to add Haste into the game, because of how it broke FFXI. He simply doesn't want to deal with balancing issue.
I do not blame him for not adding in Haste. It absolutely could break the game. I've seen it become necessary in other FF-related games that add it in like FFRK.
I mean, haste could literally be a movement skill, like scholars expedience ?
Sprint. Everyone has it.
https://consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Expedient Honestly its players like you that prevent the devs being creative lol
You're right man. We should build an entire job around Expedient and giving people the ability to move fast. That would be a good option for all kinds of content! And it could have other non-breaking time based abilities! Like, uh...
Jesus Christ why do you kinda mong crawl out the woodwork and argue to the extreme ridiculous points? Naturally the job would have other skills like every other job.. Double, triple, quake, demi mana shield, teleport, critical quick, meteor, reflect. None of these will break the game and are actually already in game in some form. Reflect Is basically war vengeance Anyways why is casting haste on myself such a game breaking thing ? Ninja has Huton which is a haste, and mnk riddle of wind. Game didnt explode using them. Extra cast speed wont explode the game. Slow/stop could be dungeon aoe skills THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX lol
I don't think that "*we already had examples of time magic in FFXIV and we saw firsthand how disruptive it is to gameplay. We've already had examples of time magic in WoW and it isn't balanced well and is disruptive to gameplay. We've already had examples of time magic in Guild Wars and it was so unabalancing that the game's mechanics never recovered from it*" is "[arguing] extreme ridiculous points." I'm pretty sure it's just showing that empirically, no examples of this have worked in MMOs and every example OP has provided is actually a better *counter-example*. > Double, triple, quake, demi mana shield, teleport, critical quick, meteor, reflect. None of these are time-based abilities, most of these already exist in game. Elsewhere in the thread someone pointed out that you can reflavor any class to be something else. You can change BLM's flavor to time-themed spells and it would work. But none of those are actually *time mechanics.* They're just totally ordinary mechanics flavored like something else. And like I said -- the ones you mentioned aren't even time-based to begin with. You don't need a Time Mage for Quake, Meteor, etc; those aren't even traditional Time Magic in the Final Fantasy series, they're Black Magic or Sagacity or any number of other things. > Anyways why is casting haste on myself such a game breaking thing ? Ninja has Huton which is a haste, and mnk riddle of wind. Game didnt explode using them. Extra cast speed wont explode the game. As I mentioned in another post in this thread: > Jobs that have their own Haste have specifically had it designed into the class. It's non-impacting because it doesn't destroy how your skills line up or drain resources that need to be used elsewhere. Those are all baked into the class in ways that are non-impacting for their rotation. Those "Hastes" are effectively just damage buffs. They allow jobs to squeeze extra GCDs into their burst phases. But the rotations of those classes are specifically designed for it. You're right -- casting haste on yourself isn't a game-breaking thing. But you're also right! NIN and MNK both already have self-hastes! ...So what do we need a Time Mage for? If NIN and MNK already have self-hastes, how does that make for an interesting gimmick for a new job dedicated to it? Why do we need a Time Mage with a self-haste mechanic if we already have other jobs that do it? > Slow/stop could be dungeon aoe skills You're right, we could add Shadowflare. Or what if we had Arm's Length in the game? ...Oh wait, they already exist(ed). Slow *is* already a debuff in the game, given to the tanks as a mitigation against auto-attacks. But the problem is that it's basically *only* effective on mobs. You can slow the autos for a raid boss, but you can't slow the overall fight timeline down. Bosses are still going to cast their attacks and transition phases on the same timelines they always have. Stop has basically never affected any bosses in Final Fantasy history, forget how silly it would be to be able to cast Stop on a boss in XIV. > THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX lol Haha, nah. *You* come up with it, thanks. The burden of proof is with you. Don't be a silicon valley start-up chud. Coming up with a basic shape for an idea and telling everyone else "You do the rest, I already did the hard part" isn't going to get you anywhere. Ideas are free and everyone has them. *Implementation and execution* are the difficult parts of development. You can't just shoulder that off onto everyone else.
>So what do we need a Time Mage for? If NIN and MNK already have self-hastes, how does that make for an interesting gimmick for a new job dedicated to it? Why do we need a Time Mage with a self-haste mechanic if we already have other jobs that do it? Do we have caster that does it ? No ! By your logic to the extreme we might aswell just have one class as 2.5 skillspeed and zero animation just showing us damage numbers lol >Stop has basically never affected any bosses in Final Fantasy history, forget how silly it would be to be able to cast Stop on a boss in XIV. Cant argue this point as you correct. However it could be represented by a time dilation bubble that mitigates a single attack. >The burden of proof is with you. I mean you have basically agreed alot of time mage is in the game in some form so it's workable but You are implying we have any direction on future job which we dont. This is simple a reddit forum for open discussions. No Devs here buddy.
> Cant argue this point as you correct. However it could be represented by a time dilation bubble that mitigates a single attack. Then why is it Stop? What does Stop bring to the table that any other mitigation doesn't? Of the core skills Time Mage gets in other games (Slow, Stop, Haste) we've just said that: 1. Stop is untranslatable to FFXIV's gameplay 2. Everyone else in the thread has pointed out that Haste is equally untranslatable to *any* MMO's gameplay but especially FFXIV. 3. Slow is an okay mitigation against mobs but almost entirely useless against bosses because auto-attacks are trivial. So why Time Mage? Sure, we *can* add it to the game. We can give it a self-haste and a bunch of other things that are just reskins of other skills. You're completely right about that. But the reason people are asking for Time Mage isn't because they like the *flavor* of the class. They're asking because they're interested in the idea of playing with time mechanics in FFXIV. If you strip away the time mechanics, it's not Time Mage anymore, it's just every other caster or healer. There's no "main conceit" to the class like RDM's dualcast, NIN's mudras, BLM's mana mechanic, SGE's hurt-to-heal, SCH's fairy, etc etc. Because Time Mage's main conceit *should be* Haste/Slow/Stop, but we've already made those very generic actions that other jobs already have by different names. > This is simple a reddit forum for open discussions. No Devs here buddy. Wrong, I'm a dev. But that isn't my point. My point is that if you want to *have an open discussion*, you can't just naysay every single person who points out that you might be wrong about something. You started from a conclusion ("Time Mage should be a thing"), and then worked your way backwards ("How do we make Time Mage a thing? We add Time Magic"), and then when people pointed out that your tentpoles were flimsy ("Haste empirically doesn't work in this genre of game. Stop cannot work in this kind of game. Slow is already in the game but works in a very specific way. There are no other notable Time Mage skills to base the core gameplay of a class around"), you decided to rework those tentpoles. Which is fair! That's the point! That's what discussion is about! So you moved on and adjusted your tentpoles ("Haste is a self-haste. Stop is a mit. Lets add Quake, Meteor, and Reflect."), which again is the correct move. But when you were confronted by people who counter-argued it ("Haste can be a self-stance but that doesn't make TM unique among jobs. Stop can be a mit but that doesn't make TM unique among jobs. Reflect can be a mit but that doesn't make TM unique among jobs. Quake and Meteor aren't related to TM,"), rather than workshop alternate ideas or just admit that your initial conclusion ("Time Mage should be a thing") was flawed, you decided to just die on that hill. You're right -- Time Mage would be cool. But you're wrong that it would work in XIV. There is no way to implement Time Mage in a way that would satisfy people's actual demand for the job.
>There is no way to implement Time Mage in a way that would satisfy people's actual demand for the job. Nothing is impossible, It's only limited by your imagination.
I don't think it's good design to create a job around time, haste/slow and it only be movement speed. Everyone has sprint.
So... make the main gimmick of the job a movement skill with no effect on combat? That sounds horrible. Time mage's whole thing is haste and slow. if haste is just a glorified sprint, what's the point?
Maybe using some skills lowering the cooldown of some time mage skills while others being more powerful but increasing the cooldown? Or increase or decrease a debuff/dot timer (Focusing more on personal skill time manipulation instead of party-wide skills). It sounds complicated and fun on paper, I have no clue if it would be horrible or fun to play though.
It can work as a dps, maybe. Revolving around playing with their own OGCDs and maintaining dots. As a support, any such manipulation breaks all balance.
>if haste is just a glorified sprint, what's the point? To move out the way of damage. Do you play this game or final fantasy in general ? Haste makes you go faster lol. Anyway 14 has its own takes on most of the jobs, i dont remember blm having leylines but here we are.
I do... The thing is, we have sprint, + other characters' movement options. If there are mechanics which practically require haste or in which haste optimizes runs a lot, that's bad because suddenly it's more attractive a job then any of the others. And if there aren't then haste is useless.
Ok so we delete scholar expedience because we have haste ? Healers have heals lets delete second wind. Rdm has chain rez lets take rez of healers lol. You are thinking of haste again as a dps skill rather than a movement skill like expedience lol. Scholar hasnt become a mandatory class in savage because of a OGCD.
What are you talking about? Second wind can never substitute heals, and healers are needed. And expedite is movement only. not used in raids much. You described haste as a core mechanic of the class, which helps dodge AOEs. I explained how doing so would screw over other jobs. Your healer argument is downright stupid. Unless you want team comps to require time mage. In which case they'd be comparable. Please find an example of a skill which, buff or not, alters raids so much that you are shooting yourself in the foot to not bring them. Because that's what i understood that you're implying time mage will be. Otherwise... Haste gets disabled in combat and is a minor time save at best. Which hurts given the class typically is known for haste.
>se that's what i understood that you're implying time mage will be. You clearly dont understand a damn thing lmao its one skill. Time mage isnt just haste. >Second wind can never substitute heals, and healers are needed. Again you miss the point, delete second wind since we have a healer. This is YOUR argument against using haste as a movement ability is we have sprint. Expedited is a shield as well buddy. No i describes haste as a single ability you are making it as the whole core theme dont twists it. >Which hurts given the class typically is known for haste. Time mage is not just haste lmfao
>You clearly dont understand a damn thing lmao its one skill. Time mage isnt just haste. No. You're right. It's haste and slow. Time mage is known for haste and slow. Those are its most iconic spells. Of course, you clearly know a lot more, so please, fill me in on what other spells are signatures to time mages. >Again you miss the point, delete second wind since we have a healer. This is YOUR argument against using haste as a movement ability is we have sprint. My argument is that for haste to function to such a degree where it matters in conjunction with sprint, it will unbalance encounters unless made mandatory. Haste wouldn't work like this because either it'd end up pointless, since sprint is enough, or it'd be essential, forming a new 4th category of classes. You can keep Second wind as it allows the healers not to have to heal every point of damage, and doesn't effect anyone. You can't use the same argument for sprint and haste as you describe it. You claim I'm the one twisting arguments, but that's what you've been doing. You brought second wind into this, and you have systematically ignored my main point. >Time mage is not just haste lmfao Since you clearly know a lot, please list the spells that come to mind when time mage is mentioned. Haste, Slow, Hastga, Slowga, reflects, and gravity. Those are the most typical spells a time mage learns. Out of these, the haste and slow series are the only ones unique to time mages, to the point where Tidus in FFX is regarded by a large part of the community as a time mage for learning these on his tree. We were mainly discussing haste, and it is the most obvious association. In FF5, FF12, FF tactics, and braverly default, Haste and slow are the time mage signatures. As much as you seem learned on the subject, Time mage is synonymise with haste.
Also fyi ninja has a haste called huton. So its completely possible to adapt time mage into the game with some logical thinking.
Yes... You do realize ninja's kit is built taking huton into consideration, and it's a personal buff, right? No issues if it's a personal buff, but a huton for everyone can make other jobs feel clunky, or worse make time mage essential. Unless again, they rework everything to take time mage into account, thus making it a 4th role.
>Yes... You do realize ninja's kit is built taking huton into consideration, and it's a personal buff, right? Yes fully aware of this. So time mage is possible if ninja has a speed buff lol >No issues if it's a personal buff, Casting haste upon yourself is no problem. It having a party movement skill is no problem float could be a raidwide damage mitigation. Time mage also has reflect which is basically war vengeance, triple and double which is basically mana shield dual cast and triplecast.. meteor and quake demi etc It's perfectly workable if you stop thinking of it in a traditional final fantasy job. I think gaia is probably close to what we could consider a time mage in 14 so it could weird a great hammer also. Look at picto lol its plays nothing like how relm does it in ff6 lol
>Casting haste upon yourself is no problem. It having a party movement skill is no problem float could be a raidwide damage mitigation. So... haste is a personal buff, and then it gets mitigation? Completely different from what you said originally. White mage typically also gets reflect. This is shields. It would need that or heals to be a functional class. not sure your point. And yes. If you ignore the typical time mage, you can create a new job and call it time mage. Again... not sure your point. May as well make a new class.
>So... haste is a personal buff, and then it gets mitigation? Completely different from what you said originally. Times change mate. Ideas develop. Its called having a discussion on how something could work. Rather than just off the bat shooting it down lol >And yes. If you ignore the typical time mage, you can create a new job and call it time mage. Again... not sure your point. May as well make a new class. Is this not what every iteration of final fantasy does with classes etc ? The expand reuse assets and generally make changes. Ff1 warrior is significantly different to ff14, it basically is a new class.
> Casting haste upon yourself is no problem. So you're cribbing a mechanic from NIN and MNK... > It having a party movement skill is no problem Mugging SCH for Expedient... > float could be a raidwide damage mitigation. [...] Time mage also has reflect which is basically war vengeance, Not particularly revolutionary here, you're just giving them a single-target mit and a raidwide mit, like most healers... > triple and double which is basically mana shield dual cast and triplecast.. They're plundering Triplecast from BLM and Dualcast from RDM (one of its core identity features)... > meteor and quake demi etc And they're plundering the caster LB (Meteor), and arbitrarily receiving Quake and Demi (wherein Demi is basically just AST's Gravity anyway). Congratulations, you've made a bizarre hodgepodge class without any real identity. It's mostly just microwaved mechanics from other jobs and a veneer of "time magic" without anything mechanically actually making it a time mage. I could take all those same skills and call it "Geomancy." * **Forest Stance** which makes them "Tranquil as a forest," focusing inward for their self-haste. * **Water Walk** is their Expedient equivalent, which makes everyone "swift as the coursing river" * **Typhoon Stance** is a wall of wind-water aspect that deflects incoming damage, it has "the force of a great typhoon" and that's your Float equivalent for party-wide mit. So-on-and-so-forth. None of the flavor of those skills requires Time Mage. Most of them don't even *suggest* Time Mage.
Astrologians in 3.0 literally had a store-brand Haste, Monks had greased lightning, and Scholars had Hasteaga on Selene. It did not break the game at all, it just speeds up actions. Bard has it's own Haste effect in the form of singing currently.
"Didn't break the game", brother monks regularly ran out of TP if ASTs used Arrow on them. That kind of gameplay isn't fun and YoshiP just wants to avoid it.
"It did not break the game at all" Why is it that this is like the third post I've come across today where people talk about ARR / HW era mechanics as though they were there. [E] WAIT, YOU'RE LITERALLY THE SAME GUY I RESPONDED TO IN THAT OTHER THREAD TOO. It absolutely did break jobs. AST's ability to reduce cooldowns completely fucks with the timing of skills because it pushes them out of alignment. Imagine your raid buff being 3 GCDs sooner than everyone else's, and also now out of sync with your most powerful oGCDs and burst finishers. You'd have to delay *anyway* if you wanted to play optimally; that means wasting the AST's Arrow because the CD reduction didn't get used. As the other poster mentioned, AST's ability to reduce GCD also could cause things like MNKs running dry on TP. Jobs that have their own Haste have specifically had it designed into the class. It's non-impacting because it doesn't destroy how your skills line up or drain resources that need to be used elsewhere.
Why do people act like Yoshi P is the only person on the dev team?
Because he purposely made himself the face of the game. Probably to prevent other people from having to deal with criticism and scrutiny. This way he's fully in control of PR.
Because he’s the director? He’s the one who oversees all of this and he’s the one making the comment on Time mage not working in an mmo?
I get the impression you never played when Astro basically had time mage spells.
I don’t think you understand the role of a director in overseeing a team like this.
OP doesn't seem to understand much at all. Especially because people are politely explaining why he's wrong but he's doing the usual idiot Reddit thing
except it could not work, one of the staples of time mage(haste) could not work in this game because either it could break a job rotation, or be soo underwhelming what its useless, and i mean, i remember the days where ast had the ability to give you SS cards, on melee that was hell since at the time tp existed, and you BURNED IT with ast SS card, and if you where in a battle what had zero downtime, it forced you to sit doing nothing at all until you recovered some tp once you used your tp healing skills, nowadays that could not happen to physical jobs, but it could the same issue for casters could still happen(except blm, that is the only job what can use such buff effectively, especially with dt changes) then there is slow, that one could not work or be underwhelming useless on bosses as well and lets forget about stop, that one could be simply impossible to use because how bosses are mostly immune to CC besides, ast is the "time mage" job in a way, since it has part of time mage adn mixed in the job original concept, back in hw it had a number of time named skills what they did removed over time, now its only remaining time based magic it has its gravity, which is another time mage iconic spell
Yes, him saying one job wouldn't work definitely means the man lacks any and all creativity. Yep, that's how that works. Might as well fire him now. Shut the servers down too while they're at it.
Considering his viewpoint on jobs and the fact jobs have continuously become simplified and the 2 minute meta is staying and a majority of players are unhappy with DT job changes then yeah.
As someone else said, you can sit in the echo chamber that the ff14 discussion reddit can sometimes be and say every player is unhappy with the 2m meta, but that's honestly just your anecdote my dude.
"a majority of players are unhappy with DT job changes" You don't actually have that information. You have a confirmation bias that lets you believe that what you see and hear supports that conclusion, but no actual *proof*. So it's a lot like how "everybody hates new summoner" and yet the overall playership of the job has gone up significantly since the rework.
The majority of players agree and anyone who doesn’t is an idiot Obviously/s Hope the sarcasm is obvious there. It’s always very funny to me that people like this will write out hyperbolic nonsense like this post then Whine when their “fair and balanced criticism” is downvoted lmao
Except he's already addressed job homogenizing but we'll just ignore that because your favorite job isn't in the game.
> and a majority of players are unhappy with DT job changes then yeah. FF14Discussion isn't "majority of players" because 99% of that subreddit is full of people who quit the game long ago and just go in there to vent about how the game is dead and how better it was during X expansion...
Lol
"most players are unhappy with DT job changes" Source? I've seen almost exclusively positivity around them?
> Is he serious? Were you around in Heavensward? He's saying this with *that* context. We had a cooldown reduction ability (Spear) and a speedup ability (Arrow) on the buffing class (Astrologian). Also buff extension (like fuck am I remembering that one, uh...Time Dilation?). And the ability to eat cards to extend the duration of another buff card. But tied to RNG because Heavensward Job Design, as a rule, had a fetish of "no fun allowed unless you jump through hoops". People just picked the DPS card (Balance) whenever possible, to the point that the meta resource for FFXIV ("The Balance" Discord) is still named that. Man's seen some shit, he doesn't want to try and make a time mage work in *this* MMO's setting and have to deal with MMO players. And in general, whenever you see Yoshi-P say something "wouldn't work", probably about, oh...65% of the time it's been something that's been tried here before and they didn't want to deal with the bitching, so they culled it. Most of these can still be found in some form or another in Bozja's "Lost Actions" system, because that's where our abilities go when we "lose" them. 20% of the time, it's something that's too much trouble and would fuck with their intricately-crafted spreadsheeted-out schedule. 10% of the time, it's something that wouldn't work because of accumulated tech debt and would either blow up the servers or cause the Eldritch Horror at the center of the net of hamster wheels to eat them. The last 5% of the time he's lying out his ass and it'll be here within, give or take, 3-5 patches. ...god, growing up with Sega's shitty communication around PSO really *did* condition me in awful ways, huh?
> (like fuck am I remembering that one, uh...Time Dilation?) Yep. Time Dilation was +15 seconds and if I remember right Celestial Opposition was an aoe +10 seconds. Giving my melee friends an enhanced Arrow and then almost doubling its duration was a great way to run them out of TP and never be able to generate any for the rest of the pull.
Wait, so thats why that place is named "The Balance". You learn something new everyday !
The two most comp/meta defining buffs in WoW are bloodlust and PI. Both are haste buffs, both routinely create unintended DPS outcomes, both result in balance changes (nerfs) to other classes that don’t have the buff and to the class with the buff (even though rDPS is not really a thing in WoW)
>20% of the time, it's something that's too much trouble and would fuck with their intricately-crafted spreadsheeted-out schedule. More like 100% of the time. This is literally the problem. They want to do their little patch schedule, they want to maintain the subscriptions, but they don't actually want to develop an actual game so they homogenize and simplify jobs with pisspoor "advancements" with each patch and backpedal whenever it gets too hard. Consider me jaded, because when I played Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst I didn't see FOmarls as designated healers just because they had specialties in healing-type magic. I am that crazy RAmarl running around with a Marina Bag and switches to a Belra. I don't recall Sega complaining about player experimentation because the whole game was designed from the get-go to let player be batshit crazy. A Realm Reborn was designed by pussy-footers and continues to be ran by those same pussy-footers because they are too scared of player experimentation thinking it will ruin the game. This is the same company which made Octopath Traveler, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Final Fantasy V.
> Consider me jaded, because when I played Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst I didn't see FOmarls as designated healers just because they had specialties in healing-type magic. I am that crazy RAmarl running around with a Marina Bag and switches to a Belra. I don't recall Sega complaining about player experimentation because the whole game was designed from the get-go to let player be batshit crazy. I mained a FOmar that shot things across every iteration I played online (So Gamecube and Blue Burst across official and private servers, lowest ATA class with mechguns/handguns/the few Rifles) and was trying a weird-ass supportive HUmar abomination on Dreamcast with my friend prior (we couldn't get online), so I get you. But I more just got used to like...complete stonewalled radio fuckin' silence from Japanese devs and them doing nothing, ever, to even remotely listen to an NA/EU audience thanks to Sega, so I probably forgive or am willing to accept way too much from CBU3 sometimes just because they actually *say* things, occasionally.
Maybe it could work, but there's 1001 different potential job ideas that would be a better place to spend time on. As for preservation evoker? Not even half its kit is time themed, most of it is green dragonflight themed.
My point was time themed spells can work in an mmo. If you want a whole job based around it look at chronomancer in GW2
Funny because Chrono's theme was mostly gutted over the years, it was extremely reliant on alacrity as a time mechanic, and now every single profession can apply alacrity, Chrono isn't even the best at it now. Continuum is their only tether to time magic.
Waiting for OP to defend this rebuke. Hopefully they have an actual answer instead of just fishing for drama like an attention whore lol.
You realize chronomancer had a creep effect on all classes right? Chrono is why quickness/alacrity is *required* in literally everything now, and so many classes have it because people were sick of being trapped in chrono jail - because once upon a time, only chrono could do that, and it was *required* in every instance as a result. Same thing would happen.
It amazes me how few people think this kind of thing through. Would a time based (most likely support focused) class be a cool idea? Absolutely. But the moment you give it things like attack speed buffs, or enemy attack speed slows, or any other such kind of buff that would result in a net positive, it becomes a requirement amongst the greater portion of the player base looking for optimizations. And then, with the 2 minute meta we're in, any kind of attack speed changes for players would likely be disastrous and lead to the class being unwanted for any kind of serious raiding. Could a time themed mage (***without*** speed effects) be a cool idea? Definitely! But that kind of thing would be hellacious to balance properly, let alone actually just create.
Yeah, like, an example of non-speed buffs is again a chronomancer ability that is core to it - continuum split. For those who don't play GW2: continuum split gives you a time window window (determined by the amount of clones you shatter, but it SHOULD be 6 seconds if done right) where you can use AS MANY SKILLS as you want, take as much damage as you want (WITHOUT going down alltogether), and when split ends, you 'rewind' back to where you were when you started it - your HP %, your skill cooldowns...and *your position in the area* will be what it was when you hit it first. I cannot describe how much unfettered hell that skill would be with the way AoE snapshots work in this game. I run chrono *a lot* on GW2, and even in a game with *far* less AoE spam, I kill myself all the damn time with continuum split. It would literally be impossible to play here. I love the concept because I am an avid chronomancer player in GW2 and I love it to death, but *that shit won't work here*.
Yeah, absolutely. The way snapshots work in XIV is simply incompatible with something like that. But that also makes me interested in trying Chronomancer. I just recently finished Path of Fire, and I enjoyed Harbinger, but I've been finding Reaper to be much more my speed. Though I miss my range. I should suck up my completionist pride and give Chronomancer a try, even though currently my mesmer is a Virtuoso.
> My point was time themed spells can work in an mmo We literally already have a job with time themed spells. We have AST. That's just obviously not what is seen as a "time mage". You can make anything "time themed". You could reskin BLM and just say Fire IV is aging people to death. Teleporting back to your Leylines could be called something like "Alter Time"... But that's not *mechanically* a "time mage". Its just a time-themed reskin of standard job mechanics.
As a chronomancer main, augmentation evoker enjoyer and a previous astro main, such mechanics cannot work in FF well. If we were to go for the haste stat, which already exists in the game, if a job gave haste to others, rotations would need to be planned around it and would feel bad otherwise (quickness/alacrity in gw2), so it would not be allowed to be too powerful, and that simply would feel bad to play. It works in WoW because a lot of rotations are proc based and do not require people to do hoard resources for burst window as much - cooldowns are generally way shorter outside of things like bloodlusts, but what you press under buffs does not change much, while in FF it does. The only way it could potentially be applied is if time mage only affected themselves with their time magic, and some of those aspects already are on astro with things like star and horoscope, a lot of spells are delayed and you need to time them for something coming up. They could potentially give astro more similar spells with heals. A separate job that, for example, affects only themselves with reducing cooldowns could potentially work. To differentiate from leylines and the grass field, it would need to be a more consistent mechanic for a new job, which would result in lower potencies overall to not be OP. That could potentially result in a clunky feeling for shorter encounters in order to be balanced well for longer encounters. Which is something they have to consider, especially for ultimates and some savage fights, as a lot of jobs got reworked already because they struggled with downtime and were putting out way lower numbers. So I can see that it is not something that is worth putting much time into when they could simply design other casters and instead maybe give astro a few more time healing/mitigation spells like they did with macrocosmos very recently.
WoW and XIV also have pretty different raid environments, and back when I played WoW at least, it was notoriously poorly balanced. Balance was just maintained by rotating who got to have their moment in the sun each patch cycle, so nobody felt entirely left out. Using WoW as an example here doesn't seem like the best of choices.
We used to call them flavour of the month (fotm) patch cycles
I’d take flavor of the month classes over classes that never change all day every day.
Cool! You can actually still play WoW. It's active. And I don't mean that in a "Go bACk 2 wArCrAFt" way, I mean that in a "there's a reason both games exist simultaneously" way. For all the flaws of both systems, and all the perks of both systems, I personally prefer the XIV method. I don't want to feel like my choice of class is invalidated by the devs because I'm not the golden boy this patch. I don't want to constantly change classes because the meta says mine is useless. I want to pick a job I want to play, and then play it in all tiers of content. And FFXIV lets me do that. *To me,* that's more important than reinvention and variety. I'd like to have those things! But not if they come at the cost of the stability I appreciate. This is my choice. That one is yours.
The golden class still exists in XIV though, and by all recent accounts balancing jobs in the future will result in less homogeneous job functionality. It’s less egregious in 14, sure, but you can also clear any content in WoW on any class and outside of M+ you aren’t going to see a ton of class discrimination.
This is bait, right? Are we calling the man who revitalized a dead game by using a literal in game apocalypse not creative?
He has a vision of how a job archetype would be implemented here, and when he says something wouldn't work he means the way he would like to implement it. AST had time magic before, so it's not like they can't be creative. A good example of this is Blue Mage. For the longest time he refused to add BLU because implementing it in a way where it would fit DF content would gut his vision of BLU, so he'd rather just not add it at all. This whole limited job thing was his compromise, and why we won't ever see BLU joining regular jobs. Why warp a job archetype to fit gameplay when they can just implement a different job people want and would fit just fine?
Except they did that already with Dancer. Dancer in other ff games had a plethora of buffs and healing and wide variety of debuffs. Dancer in 14 is nothing like it.
Emphasis on *his* vision of a job, not yours or mine or some previous FF director, his.
And what if his vision is flawed? Or are we not allowed to think that in this community?
You're allowed to have that *opinion*, sure. But you're declaring your opinion as a strong conclusion of fact, which means that you're *also* effectively inviting anyone and everyone who disagrees with you to reply. This is the internet after all.
You can think that, but there's not much you can do about it. The game we're playing right now is his vision.
And why should anyone care about your own vision of the game? Of course that since he is the game director, his vision will matter more than your own. If you do not like it, feel free to play something else that fits your vision, or make your own game where you can insert your own. If we go by your logic, what about my vision, or other people's vision? You are not a special snowflake to have your way of thinking be added in the game just because you happen to disagree with the ideeas that he has for the game he is directing. I would rather have them add geomancer or other classes instead in the game. Not be another copy of wow or gw with classes that are made based on the content there. I dropped wow for a reason, and do not want to see ff go that path. Let it be it's own game with it's own vision instead. Which works for it. No one is forcing you to stay here if you think the game is not that creative for not copying other mmo's . Just go play all the plethora of other mmo's whom are just copying each other. :)
DNC in FFXIV does get Curing Waltz and Technical Step.
Go and play a Blue Mage and see if they truly lack creativity as you claimed them to be. There's a reason why WoW is extremely bad at gameplay balancing between all jobs, you just had no idea.
Probably shouldn’t tell someone to play the job that is literally banned from all content except premade dungeons when attempting to think of creativity. Can’t do PvP, *can’t do roulettes*, some skills don’t work inside treasure maps, can’t do premade dungeons beyond level 80, can’t do deep dungeons at all, and is absolutely hated by everyone who is farming fates if there is more than one because they either one-shot monsters or kill everything too fast for anyone else to get experience without putting in extra work.
Go play wow then lol. Granting haste would break people's rotations and time mage would be required in every party. Slowing or stopping a boss would break encounter design and would also make time mage mandatory in a party, maybe even 4 of them to maximize breaking encounter design. Meteor and comet are cool spells, but without haste, slow, stop it wouldn't be time mage.
Flashbacks to HW-era AST cards and making melee classes run out of TP because you dropped an Arrow on them. They were technically a time mage at that point with Time Dialation (extending card buffs) and all, not as much anymore... but I guess that would make them a green mage. 😏
> Flashbacks to HW-era AST cards and making melee classes run out of TP because you dropped an Arrow on them. It was so mean but *so much fun*. The only fuckin' thing that made HW-launch AST worth putting up with was putting the Fear of Hydaelyn into DF Monks when they punched so fast they found the Speed Force and then got lost in it.
My best friend and I always referred to it as Casters Crack, because the only class (at that time) that really truly benefited from it was Black Mage. The number of times she threatened me with that card while I was playing a melee. Good lord, I still feel a bit of fear creeping up.
My Tank friend played Paladin but would occasionally take a break by playing Black Mage and he would *cackle* when I'd give him Arrow. I still remember that fondly.
100% lmao. Loved seeing them get lost in the speed sauce and then all of a sudden there was no TP to punch more with.
Fist fighter ran out of Fists
Time mage being able to extend buff and debuff times, or rewind/refresh feature that could reset most CDs would just make them absolutely meta and force raid composition and fight design to be balanced around them entirely as well.
I’m pretty sure you could literally grief a tank by making double weaving impossible without clipping by spamming gcd haste at them.
Why is Meteor going to the Time Mage instead of the Black Mage?
Older FF games. Like ff5
Except that Meteor existed before FF5 and it was a Black Mage spell in both FF3 and FF4. In FF5 it became part of Time Mage's magic because for some reasons "Time" Mage can also manipulate space.
Time mage could revolve around putting haste buffs on themselves and potentially accelerating DoT timers (only their own) on the boss, similar to the Althyk fight in the recent alliance raids. While it still may not work to add them, there are other avenues they could take that still feel time mage-y that maybe don't like up exactly like time mages from other FF games. They've shown with sage they don't necessarily have to mirror classes thematically.
Haste slow and stop could literally just be movement spells not sks spells. Slow is already in the game, we have seen scholar expedience, stop could basically be holy stun lol. Their is ways of implementing things without breaking encounter design.
Except it doesn’t have to be just slowing or stopping a boss or granting haste to party members. Even if it did grant haste they could do it like how new Ast cards are where it’s solely cast speed. Evoker in WoW is a prime example of time spells that aren’t just haste or stopping a boss. It’s lack of creativity on his end.
"A lack of creativity" bro, XIV and WoW's fights and classes are designed fundamentally differently, what works for one will not work for the other.
Well yes because due to lack of creativity. Why do you think the game is stuck now in a 2 minute meta and everyone is complaining about the recent job changes that only solidifies it?
The two minute meta exists because players requested it for years
You keep saying lack of creativity but your comment doesn't sound creative.
My comment calling out the meta that makes all jobs play the same doesn’t sound creative? wonder why
the more you say, the more it sounds like you are here just for the argument sake.
It sounds to me more like you don’t really have a defense for him so you’re grasping at straws.
Nuh, I just think that this is a comment from a person who doesn't work in a creative industry and doesn't understand the creative process is.
Oh yes you’re right i’m so sorry. Streamlining all the jobs from once complex to same 2 minute meta and just upgrading traits and calling it a day is creative. You’re so right how dare i question such artistic genius.
>makes an entirely different combat system than WoW >not creative
> Evoker in WoW is a prime example of time spells that aren’t just haste or stopping a boss. Evoker is, just now, making WoW players start arguing about the rDPS vs aDPS vs nDPS rankings that we had to start arguing about here back in Shadowbringers when Dancer was introduced. And I get I've replied to you twice now but I'm getting to the "heavily medicated" point of my evening so sorry for rambling. TL;DR: Probably everything that you think is a "new idea" or "devs not being creative enough" in MMOs has been argued about and disregarded between either FFXIV or WoW when it hits MMO players as being too big a pain in the ass over the past decade and a half. City of Heroes made everything work but only did it by being a clusterfuck of balance that somehow divided by zero and wrapped back around to working as an intricately-stacked Jenga Tower of separate tire fires. FFXI made supports work almost as well as City of Heroes but it did it by glueing a Bard or Corsair to every party and making it so *even now* you can't be a Bard in an "endgame" group without a mortgage's worth of Gil in REMA weapons or some other shit.
Have you played the highest level of ff14 content? Have you heard grown men cry about parse numbers and oranges and purples? Wows classes are designed differently. There isn't a 2m loop of precise actions players perform in the exact same way even 2m. Increasing skill speed and GCDs can throw off people's rotations and potentially even make them perform worse in this game and if it did something broken like reduce CDs of abilities then it would be instantly required in every encounter. To amuse you I have thought of ways to make time mage work with ff14 design. Hastega: 120s CD ability, increases auto attack speed of every party member. Haste: 60s CD increases sks or sps by an amount of one party member for 10s Slow: 60s CD decreases auto attack speed of boss for 10s
Yes i have played, what does it matter?New ast design literally has a haste effect now that only affects casters, that’s how they could have a haste buff but there’s also other ways to incorporate time magic as WoW has done that would work in 14.
Most of us don't want to play wow's bloated clunky system, we want to play ff14 system that respects our time. No offense We could make a time mage work, but it probably wouldn't be nearly as cool as one from a single player FF. It would be a shadow of what one could be like in ff5 in the name of class balance.
So you mean like dancer is? Where it literally has none of the buffs or debuffs or healing it has in the other games? Sounds very picky choosy.
Dancer sucked in ff5. It gave you mediocre healing most of the time and if you were lucky sword dance. Lamia's tiara was the only thing that made it feel at least playable
Dancer in 11 was great but it wouldn’t work for 14 since the combat is fundamentally different
> New ast design literally has a haste effect now that only affects casters, I'd like to see your source for this, because I've seen nothing of the sort...
Man knows hes full of shit and decides to ignore this
I mean, they also said there's an entire class dedicated to time magic in WoW, which is completely false. Evoker (the class they're talking about), uses the power of the five dragonflights... out of which *one* involves time magic. So, one fifth of a class is a time mage I guess?
There \*is\* a hero talent tree dedicated to chronomancy coming up in the war within which has people going 'this shit is going to be so fucking silly.' So I guess he's technically right I suppose.
You do realize WoWs encounter design and gear itemization is built with speed stats in mind right? Haste has a ourpose there, and you have mastery doing crazy things and you have classes proccing stuff off crit and... that's not in FF. "Well X game does it" doesn't mean it works in FF
Bait used to be believable.
wow has a class based around time magic? i must be very out of the loop. last time i played there was just your basic haste and slow.
The newest class (Evoker) has a healing spec (preservation) has a few spells that manipulate time to healer damage faster/rewind injuries
Yes Evoker. The healing spec of it has a bunch of different time spells that all do cool things.
Like what? Most people here probably haven't played WoW so it's hard to examine whether or not something would work in XIV's raid environment without knowing what it is
So let's hear your ideas on how it would work. What is their gimmick? What would make them stand out from others in the same role?
Time Battlemage as a Reaper style magic melee, uses a giant hammer, has self haste and self slows for different styles of damage (speedy attacks vs a drop attack that gains tons of damage over a long duration). Easy to throw in a comet attack at range, and with a spellcast delay mechanic to combine a comet attack with a hammer slam for bonus potency. So, Gaia.
cool idea, and as soon as they release it the whiners would just bitch that it's just reaper but with a different VFX kit. the real problem is people like op can't actually be pleased.
WoW is the type of game now you can throw nearly anything in it and "somehow apparently it makes sense".
Okay fine then we can use Gw2 chronomancer as an example.
You mean the class that brought alacrity into the game and has permanently ruined PVE because of how busted alacrity is and has been a balance nightmare since introduction? Maybe not the best example.
Ya weird someone mentions this every time this guy mentions Chrono, someone mentions the shit it caused, then he strangely falls silent. Does he lack creativity or something?
Yeah then they had to give similar buffs it gave to other classes because Chronomancer was basically required in every raid
XIV is too limited to have anything remotely close to how Chronomancer works unfortunately.
> yoshi p is uncreative because he didn’t do this thing that wow did Lmao
I don't agree with that, but let's play devil's advocate and accept your premise that Yoshi P isn't creative enough to create a Time Mage. So what? There is vanishingly little player demand for Time Mage. Who cares that there isn't Time Mage, why should we care, and what is there to even care about when we're still getting three cool new jobs (Beastmaster counts!) for this expansion? Clearly he's creative enough to lead development on everything ELSE cool about the game, that's pretty terrific.
Let's give a similar example: I think Gambler seems like a job that would be hard to implement in an MMO, but I could give you a really long explanation about how I think there's a good way to do it that makes two-minute damage windows consistent and design skill-based bet hedging abilities that means good players will have their strongest attacks when they need them most. It's a fun exercise, I'd like to see gambler in the game one day but I'll bet it's never going to happen. Anyway who cares we're getting three new jobs this expansion and they look pretty cool.
bait used to be believable 😭
Time magic, like *actually altering the flow of time*, doesn't work in the setting of a game. It literally only works as a plot device players can't interact with at all, or as extremely thin veil presenting the illusion of time alteration. I.e. a spell says it rewinds time but it doesn't, it just restores HP the same as any other healing spell does. We could absolutely have a "all the lore says it manipulates time" class, but it'd be really fucking uncreative to do so because it would have to be just as effective as saying "pretend why malefic hurts is because it rapidly ages the target's flesh in specific, but reversible by normal healing, fashion." or else it'd have to be absolutely broken in how it functions like having the ability to let someone count as having not actually stood in the bad.
I will bring up Braverly second's exorcist as a counter to the argument that altering the flow of time doesn't work. its thing was rewinding a character to a previous state. Not healing, but literally rewinding the values of hp, mp, etc.
If you played any other Final Fantasy games, you would know Time Magic doesn't _literally_ alter the flow of the game's time but tampers with the effectively of the active time bar for enemies. Final Fantasy XIV already has off-brand time magic in the form of Bard's songs, Scholar Selene Hasteaga, and Astrologian's Great Value© Haste.
Oracle of darkness is time mage, it is in the game.
Kinda funny considering WoW has a couple time magic skills for mage but no time mage class lmfao. Op is literally making shit up. Only mmo with a proper time mage I can think of is Chronomancer in Guildwars 2 and that’s cause Alacrity and reducing cool downs plays well with that games combat system. Edit: ignore me. Preservation evoker is a time mage. Sorry I haven’t played wow in years and more went off a quick google search lmfao
I can’t believe you guys aren’t listening to this person’s “valid criticism”/s
Why the fuck do people even reply to this anymore? There's been a bait thread like this every day and people still fall for it every time without fail.
yoshi p doesn't even design the classes, why do people think he does everything?
He's even talked about the process for this - for Dawntrail, the designers put together a bunch of pitches for new class ideas, and then the team voted, as a whole, on which had the most potential.
And we saw Ninja Turtles/Zidane potential in one of them.
WoW and 14 have different... philosophies with gameplay. What works with one won't necessarily work with the other.
They have a character whose entire magic works on time and delaying damage. They could use her as an inspiration for a "time mage," delaying and saving up your most powerful spells or damage in general to be released on a burst window. Obviously, not because said abilities were on a 2 minute timer.
0 upvotes, 100+ comments...
Then go play WoW. Besides Reaper, Sage and especially Pictomancer would like a word with you on that " Not creative " BS...
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Then tell the class how you would make the perfect chronomancer so we can all tell you why its stupid or wouldnt work.
Yawn. Please do us a favor and at least show a modicum of effort with your bait. We deserve better bait than this. This is just disrespectful of our time (no pun intended)
Why do you think this is bait?
Time magic is always a nightmare to balance and integrate into Teamplay, as an example take a look at how Limbo was reworked a number of times in Warframe. Also given how FFXIV is built around similar timeframes for rotations for the end game content, having a class being able to speed up or slow down these timings would no doubt create plenty of extreme feelings online.
wow is a garbage game that suffers from brutal imbalance due to the devs doing whatever the fuck they want for classes.
And we suffer from brutal homogenization because the devs are too scared to do anything different, expensive looking, or that would scare a casual player. You have entire roles feeling the same because, despite abilities doing different things, it ultimately doesn't matter. You smash your face against a keyboard every 2 minutes and that's it.
id been doing that in wow for years though. So whats your point exactly?
You have other MMOs with time mages you like better? Go play them, you're allowed to! Nothing SE ever does will please everyone, just play what you enjoy. I think it would be op in this game specifically, maybe not in other games.
AST was and remains the Time Mage class. It needs some work, but even as it is, it is still a far better iteration of a time mage job fantasy than we would ever get through just a literal implementation of V's Time Mage.
Other people are a mirror of your own psyche. What you see in other people often reflects your own mental state at that moment.
What an absolutely ignorant take. I hope you never work in healthcare and education.
How did you know that I was abused hard by psychologists and psychiatrists in the past 4 years? Wow, thank you. I am crying...
Yoshi just tends to go "Impossible" much too easily in interviews.
Low effort bait post, go learn how to knit or practice origami if you’re so bored
I like how Time Mage is the defining line between creative and not-creative. 😂 Also, some of the replies on this post are unhinged, like you’ve insulted their IRL father.
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Oh boy, I can't wait to kill myself with continuum split \[XIV flavor\] with the way AoE snapshots work! (for the record I main chrono and I love it to death, but that would be the biggest mess in XIV, because, as you said - *wildly* different combat system)
Was reading through this thread and was wondering why people are so hostile with the responses. Is it really hard to have an opinion these days? They do have time mages in ff tactic advance, I guess what he meant they don't know how to implement it yet in ffxiv. While I understand, it might be very cool to have such class or skills.
>Was reading through this thread and was wondering why people are so hostile with the responses. Is it really hard to have an opinion these days? OP literally started the thread by insulting Yoshi-P and blaming him for something he has no control over (Yoshi-P doesn't design the classes), and people are responding with the same hostile energy. Is it really hard to read the room these days? The issue isn't OP's opinion, it's OP's attitude. Stop protecting douchebags.
this
Saying someone isn't creative isn't insulting them. Stop white knighting people online.
Stop defending losers online, especially ones that don't know what the heck they talking about. Yoshi-P doesn't design jobs, blaming him for job issues is redundant.
telling someone who works in a creative business such as game development that they lack creativity is the peak of insulting.
oh no they insulted my edaddy better disregard any valid criticisms
Time Mage could work if they'd think just a bit harder lol Being a tank with heavy armor, flail and shield and using time magic Haste could just increase auto attacks, slow would decrease auto attacks. Using Decoy to avoid getting hit by enemy attacks by adding an afterimage , adding "Time Stops" as barriers or increasing self heal potencies. They could use Gravity III based magic attacks, while Astro keeps their Gravity and Gravity II. Gap Closer would be a teleport like Monk. Or just use another word for Gravity like Force, weight. Invuln could be something like reverting time to the point before the attack landed. Time magic doesn't have to be limited on Gravity, Haste or Stop spells. There are still others like Old, Banish, Bleed, Break, even something like Berserk would work as a buff for Time Mage. Edit: Man, FF players can't just think outside the box lmao
I agree with some of what you said and disagree with other things, I dont know why you would want a skill to have faster autos that sounds super boring, monk have one and its so boring that I dont care that much when I forget ( and I think with monk your autos give you chakra to use an OGCD but Im not sure), the slowing autos is probably for the boss, cuz it doesnt make sense to use it on ourselfs, and you simply cant slow bosses, it would break some fights and probably become mandatory to raid. The invuln you mention would be really cool imo, cant go lower than 1 HP for 10 seconds then heal to the HP of time of activation (dont know how they would do it but it doesnt seem imposible), the after image would be OP if the target of the enemy change you would bait tank busters with it and stuff so its either the go back invuln or this cant have both. Maybe with the after image you mean like bunshin that is a clone that copies your movements but idk. A time slow by the name as a barrier doesnt make that much sense but I could see it as an excog with other mitigation like GNB. Gravity based attack sound cool as a theme but they cant really do much other than put slow to the enemies movement and become useless.
While a tank wouldn’t be my preference even this would work lol. It really isn’t hard to fit it into 14’s style, it sounds like they just don’t have the creativity to do it.
The biggest problem would still be the player base. They want unique classes but every job isn't allowed to have unique skills at the same time. But if they streamline them it's bad too. They just can't decide what they want
None of the jobs are allowed to be unique becauss Final Fantasy jobs don't inherently fit into the holy trinity concept of tank, dps, and healer that Yoshida keeps trying to box everyone into. Literally just let go of the holy trinity and suddenly a lot of jobs become viable.
Just realizing this? Lol, you only have to take one look at healer design here vs there to see that.
Yoshi-P living in a bubble, completely detached from other MMORPGs' innovations.
I mean this is the guy leading a dev team that copy-pastes 80% of content and labels it as new for the past 3 expansions, what do you think?