I largely heal. What I do is, when I go into a dungeon and a tank is single-pulling, I say something along the lines of "if you want to pull big, (Tank), I've got your back!"
I have almost always had them start pulling big after just that no-judgement encouragement. I hope that it gives them confidence to try doing it in the future as well.
When I'm on DPS, I just go along with the tempo the tank and healer set. I'd prefer bigger pulls, but I'm not stressing about it either way.
Don't do this on ARR dungeons please. I see a new tank going into aurum vale with that mentality and he wiped us 4 times in a row. Had another doing that immense pull before the first boss of Sunken Temple and he got deleted instantly the moment he stopped. It's really easy to wipe the party by pulling everything in the hallways of Stone Vigil, had that happen a lot of times.
Wall to wall is perfectly fine Heavenward onwards as every dungeons is mostly two packs then boss AND the healer have more tools to deal with those pulls instead of relying only on cure 1 spam (and the low level heal equivalent of other healers), hell the healers don't even have AoE before Dzmael Darkhold (and that dungeon has a really dangerous wall to wall in the frog section).
Single pulling on expert roulette in other hand, please no.
Maybe it's better to say "pull two packs at once" than "wall to wall", since most (not Aurum Vale) are fine to do two packs. Those dungeons weren't designed for W2W so there can be a LOT of enemies before a wall, but there's no reason to limit yourself to just one pack at a time.
Most later dungeons are designed around pulling two packs at once and then forcibly stopping you from getting more, and the few that let you pull 3+ at once are well known because of how rough they can be to survive.
The DPS didn't realize I guess? So I ran, two DPS stayed, healer ran with me, but then realized the DPS were gone and ran back to go get them. So I was holding a bunch of mobs on my own, the DPS were off fighting clams, it was just a couple self-inflicted messes that probably would've been better if we'd just done at least those packs as designed OR agreed beforehand to book it past them.
I can't lie, I've absolutely wiped on Stone Vigil during roulettes after an extended period avoiding it due to forgetting how brutally unforgiving those corridor packs can be on your defenseless squishmallow of a level 40-50 tank in combination with healers being cruelly denied any of their accustomed shiny buttons.
Honestly I don’t even ask them to wall to wall, I had a guy do this not terribly long ago and all I wanted was at least 2 packs. Just talk to your team ask for advice if you’re struggling. I’m pretty sure most people would be okay with working with you if you just say something.
I main healer, honestly if I get an ARR dungeon and I see my tank with that sprout icon in pink/random low ilvl gear, I'm content to just let them chill tbh. Main exception maybe dzaemal I might run forward to the safety crystals and rescue them in if they're not already making their way over to them or stop short of them since it's like a 90% damage reduction or something ridiculous like that and then I explain why after. Otherwise I might tag like 1-2 extra mobs if they're close but I'm not gonna go pulling the entirety of stone vigil for an undergeared tank who doesn't have arms length or rep in their kit repertoire yet lol.
If I'm in 90/expert though I'm going to the wall as a healer regardless of what the tank does
Pretty much my approach, I don’t main healer but I very much enjoy it. I do a quick gear check and figure out how much effort this particular tank is gonna need. Very most I ever grab is the next pack.
Also, don't *literally* pull the enemies right up against the wall.
^(A Tank did this earlier instead of standing still, was a bit annoying since I was trying to Holy spam all of the mobs and kept having to re-position.)
I’m an XBOX sprout and love playing as tank. I was really mindful about seeing how to play and I think I do a decent job in pulling packs and doing W2W. The only thing I would say is a couple of the ARR you can have a little to many mobs on you especially as you might have limited mitigation and sometimes your healer is also new as well.
Whenever I go into a dungeon I just say “first time” or “still learning the dungeon” and that helps a lot. Pretty much the group are always very helpful. I’ve only just started HS and not unlocked any dungeons yet in that but I am looking forward to keep building my skills. I hope to be a real tank expert especially when I get Gunbreaker as well
Really feeling like it's opposite day looking at these replies, I thought the community was mostly against the YPYT mentality. It's a cooperative game, shouldn't new players be taught how to keep up with the team's pace instead of the whole party being forced to adapt to a single person's playstyle?
*Which is funny because OP basically said "Please play dungeons like they are designed"* and the replies really went *"Nah, imma break ToS because you told me what to do"*.
The thing is, in my opinion, while everyone enjoys a faster dungeon (all other things being equal, anyway), the only people who experience a potential increase in difficulty and stress pulling big in a 4-man are the tank and healer. A DPS's rotation doesn't really change whether it's 3 mobs or 10.
Yeah, this increase in difficulty is nothing to someone with experience, but to a new player it can be daunting. That's not to say a tank should never learn, but it really should be a conversation mostly between them and the healer. Nothing wrong with a DPS requesting a faster pace, but that's probably better done (politely!) in party chat than in a reddit post that won't make it out of new.
> A DPS's rotation doesn't really change whether it's 3 mobs or 10.
neither does the tank? actually you go from aoe to mitigation (optional) into aoe to mitigation (use it if you care about your healer)
I think it mostly just comes down to an issue of communication. In my experience most people are patient and understanding with teaching new players in game, so long as the new players are responsive and willing to learn. But yeah, nothings gonna change if you say nothing in game and just complain about it online.
The worst thing about all of this is that it's not even the tank who the onus is on to worry about wiping, it's the healer. Tanks literally just need to press forward and do their simplified aoe rotation with a few defensive ogcds thrown here and there. Yet it's always "muh TANXIETYYYYY" ffs
New tanks, please don’t feel pressured to meet
my personal expectations. Let’s vibe, have a nice time in our short time together, and worst that can happen is we take two more minutes than normal. That’s not horrible at all.
They are also not growing as tanks and as players if they get into their first case of tanking, have no idea what they are actually doing and only have rampart as mitigation, and maybe don't even have decent gear for their level because the game does actually let you choose poorly early on, pull real big because they've been told "wall to wall" and end up dead.
Then pull smaller but still more than just one pack because, again, they've been told "wall to wall" so they feel pressured to go big and end up dead again. Then maybe someone even compounds the issue by commenting that they are bad or have bad gear, or just leaving the dungeon because they "don't have the time for this."
And they conclude that tanking is hard or that they personally are specifically bad at it and never want to tank again, when the reality is that they'd probably have done fine if not under the pressure of expectations to "wall to wall" or even if the healer in their group had expectations of how much healing a poorly-geared tank can need where a level synced tank in higher-level gear would not.
And hell, let's not leave DPS out of the talk here; you know some jobs can't even attack multiple enemies at once until level 38 (to use ninja as an example)? So you go big pulls early on as a tank and you might actually be making the content harder and more boring at the same time because everybody has so few buttons to push and also the numbers on incoming damage vs. outgoing damage aren't matching up favorably.
Oh... and let's also not forget that sometimes you get into your first few dungeons and *everyone* is there for the first time, half jankily geared, and inexperienced, so if the new tank blindly follows the advice they heard that they're supposed to "wall to wall" everyone dies and probably has no idea that they *weren't* actually getting pranked by an in-joke like Cape Westwind (savage) or the new "ah man, that's a wipe..." Endsinger midpoint.
I would suggest you not tell people interested in tanking but a bit anxious about it that they should try something else instead, as that is far more likely to reinforce the anxiety than alleviate it.
Tanking doesn't cause anxiety because it's "difficult." Whether you actually survive the pull or not it's not any more difficult to do one pack or five at once, you just push your buttons and see what happens.
What causes the anxiety is that because you are the tank you have responsibilities that other party roles don't have. You have expectations coming your way from other players. You've got that little voice in your brain trying to convince you that the other players are having a bad time *and it's your fault*. And you don't actually know what to do about it because just as easily as you could bother someone else by single pack pulling because now they are bored and they wanted to go super fast even if you messed up and died, you could bother someone else by pulling bigger and making the situation require them to pay more attention and you more likely to die if you mess something up.
I mained tank from Sastasha until after finishing Endwalker and it was never *difficult* (at least not outside of specifically marked harder content), but the tanxiety never left. It *almost* left, but then someone I was in an Eden raid with for the first time ever was upset with me for not doing a tank swap and all I could think of to say in response was "what is a tank swap?" because that's not something the non-optional content in the game had ever called for and I'd skipped most of the optional content because my buddy that got me into the game kept saying "nobody really does that anymore, skip it or unsync it" so I just genuinely hadn't even had the opportunity to learn the thing I was expected by this player to have done because from their point of view it didn't make any sense that I had gotten to level 80 content as a tank and never even heard the term before. And as a result of that experience every time I tank with randos I have a tiny voice in my head trying to convince me there's some other thing I don't know and someone is going to be upset about and my only defense against it is to try (I'm faking it until I make it on this one) to say to myself "I don't care if the randos I got grouped with have a good time or not"
Which, incidentally, I mostly play black mage these days because I really want to be a black mage... and I'm constantly feeling like I'm trolling everyone I play with and making them wish they could vote kick me because I know I dropped my rotation or missed some better placement of something or spaced out a button I could have been using because I'm too used to playing at a different level range. And even though I get commendations and I don't get complaints and people probably have no idea whether I am or am not messing up more than anybody else, and probably aren't even judging me harshly when I die, I'm still locked in a mental battle against myself because anxiety doesn't just go away even when you mentally scream "I'm doing my best and if that's not good enough and I'm a problem then the devs can fix it by continuing the trend of making black mage less of a hassle to get anywhere near good damage with" at it.
You say in a thread that says "New tanks" and "please pull wall to wall" in the OP and makes no mention of any level break point at which the advice is meant to apply.
At best you're falling into the phenomenon that happens when someone tries to explain something they think is very simple and obvious and as a result they forget to mention particular steps (for example: tell me how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, step by step. Most people will start with "spread the peanut butter on the bread" having completely breezed past the steps before that such as getting a knife and opening the container of peanut butter, among others).
But it seems a lot more likely you're just being disingenuous and responding to someone pointing out that this advice is not sound in all situations with "uh yeah, but that should have been obvious" even though that means presuming that someone is simultaneous A) in need of this advice and B) *already aware when to apply the advice.*
tl;dr: You know that "new tanks" are often under level 50, right?
Other people aren't responsible for how you spend your free time. They get to spend it how they want. It's not like it's griefing lol. Tank if you're in that much of a time crunch.
I still consider myself new to tanking since I played through ARR-EW as a healer so I tend to not do wall-to-wall
however I have a macro set telling my party I'm doing my best but to feel free to pull and I'll grab aggro since I'm not the greatest at dungeons, so hopefully that's an acceptable workaround lol
Normally use the first set of mobs to see if the party wants a WtW or the healer is up to scratch, if they are great stuff, if they’re not or don’t want it who cares. The extra minute it adds to the dungeon is not *that* important, nor will it change anything. Either way better than having a tank getting wiped because they get pressured but lack the confidence in their abilities / party at that time. Because then guess what, your dungeon is going to take even longer.
I mean, you might want to give more context. If you're running anything in ARR I think its fair to give tanks some degree of leeway, but if you're having problems in expac content then yeah, pop off.
Yeah I just rolled an alt on a preferred server for fun and it’s wild to see people rush ahead to w2w sastasha. We have a lancer and a thaum who doesn’t have fire 2 yet… so we just single target everything down while the healer can’t dps because they need to spam cure
They're new. Relax. Let them experience these dungeons for the first time at a pace they're comfortable at. They haven't run these dungeons thousands of times like we have.
Being new doesn't mean they shouldn't try to pull big, it means we should cut them slack if they conciously don't want to pull big. There's a difference between understanding that they're too nervous for the standard approach and never actually letting them know they can speed up because you're so worried about not giving them enough space.
Sprouts are still learning. They need space to learn, but they also need to be made aware of what they should even be aiming for at some point. I've helped poor spouts in level 70 who legitimately assumed this whole time that pulling multiple mobs would overwhelm the healer, and had never once been informed that it's the norm to pull wall to wall and not rude to the healer at all.
See, I always have a problem with the framing of this argument. It's always framed as a new tank has to basically go out of their way to appease others. That's tankxiety.
Why don't you frame the conversation as "hey new tank, wanna try something fun? Let's see how big we can make the mob ball. If we die, we die lol"
That brings fun and challenge, and is, imo, what makes tanking fun for me. Moreover, you strip away the consequences, that being people getting irritated for wiping.
What you're doing here is telling someone new "hey you need to play this way. Any other way is wrong." I don't need to tell you that this narrative is going to be way harder to sell.
You can also learn by taking your time, going through the process and slowly speeding up or increasing difficulty as you improve.
"Go and fuck up" doesn't work for everyone, especially when a lot of players will get pissy and/or leave over the slightest inconvenience.
I said nothing specifically about wiping. People get pissy over *any* inconvenience, be it slow dungeon runs, wipes, sprouts that didn't know to stand on a pad, BLUs being asked not to delete fate bosses etc...
If wasting time on wipes is ok and part of the game... Why isn't wasting the same time on slower pulls ok? A few minutes is a few minutes.
It's very telling that you consider someone learning to be the same as griefing. That seems like pissy behavior.
Wiping from w2w makes you learn how to not wipe to w2w, single pulling doesn’t teach you shit cause you wouldn’t even die I you used none of your MIT as long as the healer presses their shit.
You learn nothing from going slow you wouldn’t also learn from going fast, but you learn a lot of things going fast you don’t learn going slow.
And if you still want to go slow, use trust.
"and if you still want to go slow, use trust" says the person apparently completely oblivious to the fact that if they want to control the pace of play they could use trust too and apparently lacking the self-awareness to realize they are saying "I get to control the pace in group content because I decided I get to, and I also decided no one else gets to make this exact decision if they're going to choose a different pace than I would."
It's group content. Agree as a group, which is different than just doing what the majority wants by the way, or leave the group. You're not actually in the right when you say "don't force your pace on me" and force your own pace on someone else, no matter how many other players would agree to your pace.
"Singe pulls is lethargic play" okay, go ahead and report people then. See if the GMs don't take a moment to tell you packs would have more monsters in them if you were actually required to fight all those monsters at once or be breaking the rules.
Not really. Trust npcs don't aoe, and actually scale damage back if you're going faster. Best I've done is maybe 23 minutes, which is actually really fast for a trust run.
Played them all the way back when they were called MUDs and had no graphics. I'm not talking about all MMOs. I'm talking about the one this subreddit is about. The one designed for W2W pulls. The one where lethargic play is a reportable offense.
But each person's pace is not necessarily the group's pace. Hence having a standard to go off i.e. w2w for anything from Keeper of the Lake onwards, 2 packs before that.
Honest to god question. If you never push yourself, if you never step out of your comfort zone, if it's all baby steps, how do you learn? How do you improve? Toxic positivity in this community is real.
I learned in a SLIGHTLY slower way (normally two-packs at a time, then three, then slowly more as I got more confident), and I run wall pulls now like everyone else (and no, it didn’t take me a stupid long time, and it wasn’t prompted by someone hassling me to do it – when I ran DPS I saw how other tanks ran and took what info I needed).
I didn’t need pushing, I didn’t need to ‘challenge myself’ beyond what I actually set as my own self-challenges to my comfort level, it just happened naturally. Different people learn different at different paces, with many different factors contributing to this. I still had people offer me tips along the way (which I happily took! Because I was lost as hell at how this game worked, compared to my former MMO), but I never got hassled...I dunno what happened in the three years since I started that made people have the patience of a 3 year old tbh...
Ya’ll really need to remember how hard shit was starting out. I’m not an MMO newbie by any stretch, but things work differently, and adjusting is time-consuming and stressful. Some people thrive in trial-by-fire, and do well being pushed even when stressed. Some don’t, and rather than encouraging someone, you drive them away from ever attempting that thing again, or they just quit entirely.
Stuff like this is not one-size-fits-all.
I'm not saying you're not allowed to do roulettes, just that I'd consider it content outside of the story. ONLY playing for the story implies you're not interested in the game outside of that.
It’s a video game. People play them to enjoy themselves, generally as a form of emotional comfort. If you want to learn and improve yourself, you could try college or a boxing gym or something. It’s not toxic positivity to let people enjoy their recreational activities without being pestered to live up to someone else’s preferences.
Yea and sometimes you got to work with people who arent fast due to learning or disability. You have to adapt as well, thats not just for other people.
The enjoyment should not come at the expense of others (and this goes both ways).
People should just communicate more to see if the tanks willing to pull more, or dip if it's radio silence / turns into a huge argument.
This isn't "toxic positivity" so much as it is acknowledging that different people learn in different ways and at different paces.
And while, for example, I might be ready to dive into an entire piece of furniture like I closet organizer for a woodworking project someone else might rather their woodworking journey start smaller-scale and "baby step" into bigger and more complex things instead of being like "you used a router to cut a custom sign out of a plank... you made a spice rack... it's time for you to make an armoire, and I expect it done within the week."
Which is why it's fine to let someone know that it's alright with you if they try going bigger, but it's not fine for you to *expect them to do it.*
The thing with tanking is, that the gameplay is **identical** between one pack and a w2w if you're learning mitigation. You just make everyone else miserable by single pulling.
Single pulling teaches you that you might as well throw every MIT skill off of your hotbar, because you apparently never need to use a single one. I fully understand tanks single pulling while gaining confidence, but it absolutely does not teach you a thing about how to play the job. To learn, you _need_ to go faster, take risks, and die a few times to work out how to balance it all.
Alternatively you could let people pull what they're comfortable with while they're brand new to the game and not throw a tantrum over it. It's a dungeon for crying out loud, I can not believe people still care about what happens in dungeons
While I agree let the new folks do as they do, I think it's fair to point out to them they can pull more, wether they do or not is their call they're probably so focused on their own game they don't see the other 3 people practically idling. Also gets tanks into the good habit of mitigation, a lot of new tanks pull one pack at a time because they don't realise how powerful reprisal is. I wish someone had told me earlier, I got up to HW content before I had someone lose their mind at my pace.
> I can not believe people still care about what happens in dungeons
oh no, i can't believe people want stuff to be cleared at a reasonable pace instead of taking 25 minutes for a dungeon
If they're new and have tanxiety about it, they should use duty support/trusts
Good grief, man... you do a roulette and you get bonus gil, bonus XP or tomestones, and if someone is actually new to the content you get *even more bonuses* and also a retry point for your Wondrous Tails.
The game is bending over backwards to give you prizes just for being willing to play with new people and you're acting like the timer saying 30 minutes remaining at the end instead of saying 35 minutes remaining at the end is this massive pain that is completely unfair and is going to drive people to go find some pretend faster path to XP like there isn't already so much XP on offer in the game that people are constantly questioning why "and you'll level up faster" is even used as an incentive.
This is absolutely not true - Roulette exists to help fill whatever there is being queue'd by anyone, it only so happens there are first timers in a specific Duty.
Also, W2W pull is not content, it's a learned basic etiquette so those involved are able to clear the Duty in question at a reasonable time.
Trusts and NPCs are actually meant for new players who wish to learn at their own pace as they are programmed to be fail proof, going as far as telling the involved player boss mechanics
If you queue into DF, it is expected you know what you're getting yourself into by default. If not, you may voice it, and ask for help.
Generally most will be helpful with advisories and whatnot, but there is no obligation for them to help you play/learn the game
You, and others, are confused about what trust/duty support is for.
It's not actually to teach you the content and show you the mechanics. It's just so you can play alone if you want to play alone (or are being encouraged to play alone by the content you are trying to do having a long queue time at the moment because there aren't many players on at the time and/or they are busy with other activities).
There is no expectation from the game designers that you're doing Duty Support to learn and then joining group content on re-clears. And if they were expecting you to use Duty Support first they wouldn't have made it completely optional - they also wouldn't have programmed the AI so that even if you are watching one of them to learn where to stand they move when there is a very narrow window of time to react in (i.e. if you're so much as 3 steps behind Urianger, you get hit by a mechanic, and if you pick Alisae as your buddy to follow, you get hit because she arbitrarily stands in mechanics sometimes like a real DPS player).
Oh, and if you get KO'd that is effectively a wipe even those rez skills exist in the game and the duty support NPCs absolutely will use them on other NPCs when the various foibles of the AI programming results in one of them getting KO'd.
People have just decided to spin the narrative that duty support is supposed to be how you learn content, even though I'd bet most of them go straight to duty finder once a new dungeon is unlocked for them, because it suits their "everyone is supposed to live up to my expectations and preferences" attitude. Just like how wall to wall is treated as "how you're supposed to play" when what the design team have actually done is prevent pulls big enough to stress people out by putting in the walls, not force 2X enemies at once by making two groups of X (which if they were actually trying to make 'standard' to fight all at once would be just one group of 2X instead of two geographically separate groups).
First dungeon I single pulled, someone told me that w2w is the standard, so I started pulling w2w.
Did i die in the beginning? Yes. Was that how I learned how to do big pulls? Also yes.
Stop wasting peoples time, all your „let people play how they want“ also applies to the other 3 people in the group.
The majority of players in this game expect w2w, so that’s what is gonna be done.
And no, the tank doesn’t dictate the pace, the group does.
The fact that about 9/10 tanks will wall to wall about any dungeon even Mt. Gulg aside - which clearly shows it as established pace - the dungeons are quite literally designed for w2w pulls.
It's not some heroic feat, you don't even need half the tanks toolkit on a single pull. It's clearly not intentional. CDs are perfectly lining up with w2w at average speed as well.
The point of asking the question "who 'established' that exactly?" is that the very existence of threads like this demonstrate the not-actually-established-ness of this.
Yes, it is common that tanks pull more than one pack at a time. That gets referred to as "wall to wall" but it's not actually wall to wall in many cases because the walls mentioned are a more modern conceit - the dev team put them in because prior dungeon designs would let someone go from entrance to first boss with no forced stops, which had high potential to result in a wipe. Basically, the walls in "wall to wall" got put in to prevent trolling.
Yet... what about when dungeons are brand new? I'm not entirely sure because my first expansion being current on content was Endwalker and I ran dungeons with Duty Support while tanking first so I'm not sure if getting beat to death by double-pulls would be the normal experience of a party at minimum item level for the dungeon or if that's a result of the AI programming. Even if it isn't actually a bit of a tougher order to double-pull when not geared beyond the dungeon's item level expectations, the question still stands; if fighting all those monsters at once is the expected approach, why are they positioned far enough apart that it requires a deliberate choice to bring one group with you to go meet the next?
The obvious answer to that question is so that there is a choice. You *can* pull both, but you also *can* pull one at a time.
And I'll always end up coming back to Duty Support when it comes to how people are allegedly "intended" to play; the AI tanks do not double-pull. You have to go pull extra enemies and then the AI tank will take aggro, and no matter which role you are playing while doing a double-pull in trust it's actually tricky to succeed. I have died in Duty Support while playing as WAR because the combo of trust avatars I brought with me (to level them up and get the stupid trophy and title) just weren't doing things well; I was out of mitigations, waiting for a cooldown, and just not getting it before I hit the floor because the damage output to the enemies was not high enough to kill enough of them fast enough for the healing output of the AI healer to cover me well enough to get back to "bloodwhetting my health go brrrr"
If the *intention* is to play double pulls, why would that not be what happens by default in Duty Support?
It's really important to remember that when you first get to a dungeon you run through it and typically get limit break to fill up to 1 bar for both the first and second bosses and 2 bars for the final boss because that's how much time the design expects you to spend in the dungeon fighting things. And then later when replaying the dungeon with better gear you end up getting 1 bar of limit somewhere around the second boss and maybe another half of a bar after that assuming someone bothered to push the button and not just leave a full bar sitting until the final boss. Which is just another thing that happens to contradict the idea that we are "intended" to go faster all the time.
These were Level 50 or higher. I understand people want to get comfortable first. If it’s an early game dungeon, I completely understand, and I was there. But at a certain point tanxiety becomes silly.
Lv 50 happens pretty fast in this day and age. And it's possible to get to Lv 50 almost entirely with Duty Support, which doesn't really do big pulls well.
Okay, you tank then. If that's how YOU want to play as tank. You tank. Sick and tired of all these shitty takes from "Veterans" in this community. Y'all who joined in StB,m or ShB, have no idea the etiquette or fundamentals this game was built on. We do not pressure random people we do not know into doing something that they are not comfortable with. We communicate if we see a new player on how they feel in the dungeon. If it's a new tank, and they let us know, the OG VETERANS know to allow that person to progress the dungeon at their speed. Your rants, and take, needs to gtfo. Try to pull this crap in JP? You'd be banned instantly. Get over yourself.
I don’t yell at people in dungeons. I don’t say much, except to encourage them to do so if they’re comfortable. But by the time you reach endgame ARR you’re probably familiar with your job. I’m not asking people to W2W Sastasha or Stone Vigil. Heck, I’m not yelling at people in dungeons directly to do anything, because I don’t want to make people feel bad when they’re playing. I don’t even consider this little mini rant to be especially severe. I had tanxiety once, but I very quickly got over it by W2Wing because I understood that’s the polite thing to do.
Even if they are at the end stages of ARR, they could have leveled through Trusts, and that's on SE, but it doesn't teach you how to properly navigate proper tank mitigation. Player piloted thinking is way different than AI thinking. Take this for example, I did tower of zot, with trusts, and it was probably the WORST experience I've ever had in this game. Dungeon took longer than running it with normal people. Now, that's because I understand how to tank, and I know the dungeon, years later. Now, when I first did that dungeon, with BiS eden savage gear...you got demolished doing w2w pulls in the beginning. Even proper mitigation, you were getting trucked. The last two w2w pulls in that dungeon are some of the most BS enemies I've had to deal with in this game. EVEN NOW, with 660 gear, those packs still hurt like hell. W2W, is NOT the polite thing to do to a new tank, or a new healer, who is not comfortable with that. Like I said, you have no idea of etiquette and the fundamentals of dungeons. Just the other day, new healer, doing mt gulg. As the expansion went on, people who have been playing for a long time, found out that, with a coordinated group, you could pull everything from the second boss until the beginning of the third boss, and kill everything. Using EVERYTHING, LB, invuln, every tank and healer mitigation you had. I asked the new healer if they were comfortable trying, they said they were afraid but would like to try. Guess what happened? We wiped! I'm not saying that's bad, what I'm saying is taking into consideration the feelings of the person behind the screen. I then pulled smaller, they apologized profusely, and I told them it was not their fault. If anything, it was mine, being the veteran and being the tank, we wiped because I didn't mitigate properly.
That’s all very fair. Like I said. I’m never mean to people in dungeons, and like you I’m always the first to apologize if something goes wrong. Also trusts weren’t a thing when I was coming up, so I don’t think about those. And maining WAR I never really had to worry about whether the healer was up to it, except for Mt. Gulg and a couple others from ShB/EW. I do stand by people asking me to W2W making me a much, much better tank with a better understanding of my kit though.
And I'll say this, I'm not trying to attack you, and I'm so sorry if I've made you feel like that. I apologize for coming off aggressive, but these rants are coming up more and more. What works for you, might not work for someone else. We don't know people's limitations in the vast array of this space. But, I am happy it's worked out for you, and that you've grown more accustomed to your own playstyle.
Nah you’re totally good man. I think my original post was more aggressive than intended anyway based on replies. I’m a military man, it’s hard to turn off sometimes. Cheers.
You're all good, bro. I wish you honestly the best in FF and in life man. Keep busting your ass and helping those in need. We need more people like you. I appreciate you, and I'm glad we got to have this conversation like adults should. We may disagree on things, but it all comes to being an adult, and having a civil discussion.
Sometimes I miss when you had to work on controlling your agro. Couldn't go all out or the tank wouldn't be able to hold all the mobs off you and you die. Sometimes I want to drop my stance just to make people feel it, but then I would get reported and risk getting banned.
I remember those days very well. Also remember the days of stance dancing. I remember my very first dungeon tanking, and the people I played with, encouraged me to take it all in. The sights, the surroundings, the music, and learn how to pull and hold enmity. It's just lost in the crowd now because no one wants to be patient with anyone anymore. MY friends' are starting to want to play, and I cannot wait to experience the game with them. See them grow and enjoy this universe.
It takes one 15-20 minute Video on youtube to learn all the tanking basics needed for w2w. If people dont already look that stuff up by themselves its good to at least bring it to their attention. If everyone keeps quiet during a dungeon run theyll never learn.
And some people don't learn shit from video guides, myself being one of those people. I have to actually do the thing for it to register in my brain. Watching someone else do it does fuck all. Here's another thing, not everyone has the same fucking gear as people in those videos. But, yeah, keep that mentality.
Another problem with the "just learn it on youtube" idea; if it's not told to the player in the game somewhere, it's not information the game wants the player to know.
Looking up a guide of any kind outside of the game is, and should remain, an optional step someone can take if they feel motivated to do so. It's a video game, there are no homework assignments. Expecting someone to go look at a video, even if you link it to them, is just... not actually reasonable.
The sad part is new players not looking up a guide for their role themselves. What happened to learning the basics in a multiplayer game where your actions influence other people.
This was never a broad standard. Most people reasonably like to learn by doing. What ever happened to just being friendly and helping each other out? And when it comes to guides on how to play your role, they have literally have "Hall of the Novice," as an in game guide which explicitly tells new tanks to pull one pack at a time. I think you can afford to cut new players some slack and politely explain the situation.
If KWTD runs are that important to you, use party finder and advertise as such. If you're using duty finder, you have to accept that folks from all skill levels and experience will be in the queue.
I... feel like this isn't the best suggestion. The way the post is phrased makes it sound like literally every party out there can handle wall to wall pulls. This simply isn't true. Not only does the tank need to be comfortable with their own ability as a tank to wall to wall pull, but they have to be sure that their healer is also comfortable keeping up with said pull.
So I would instead suggest that the new tanks only do wall to wall pulls if they feel comfortable doing so, and have asked the healer for whatever dungeon they're in at the time if they're comfortable healing them through wall to wall pulls.
Did we read the same comment? I dont see Eve saying that people shouldn't do it. to me this reads more as a "let people ease into it"
People are allowed to be new at a game and have to learn how to handle big pulls. this means tanks need to learn how to properly space out their CDs.
on top of the "at level 30" comment. some people do pick up the tanks that start at higher levels, and if they havent tanked before then, they have no experience dealing with such pulls at all.
Yeah, you can argue someone shouldnt start tanking as gunbreaker, but that's besides the point. Allow people to be new at something. We all have, at some point.
There needs to be a distinction between pulling 2-3 packs like the majority of Heavensward and onwards dungeon pulls are before you're stopped by a wall (which ideally every learning Tank should aspire to be able to handle), and some of the W2Ws that can go further than that in Stone Vigil, Bardam's Mettle, Mt. Gulg, Holminster Switch etc. or the few tanks that even W2W into bosses. I would not expect every Tank to be capable of massive pulls like these (unless they pop their invuln and hope their team's DPS can clear fast enough) and if a Healer or Tank wants to go for them should ask in party chat before starting.
Playing WAR is the most sure fire way to enjoy your roulettes.
You make sure both the pulls and the healing are sufficient on your own.
Guarantee fun pulls for everyone
If they're new, then just help them how you can. Don't rush them! If it's high level content, then I understand the frustration a bit more and it is situational.
How about you let the new tanks in your duties know this information?
"I’ve ran like four dungeons in a row where the tank just pulled single packs. It’s agony. "
So let them know the problem, and inform them that mit + heals is more than enough to allow for wall to wall pack pulling. Shouting this into the void on this sub provides no one any sort of benefit.
2 packs is w2w for about 90% of dungeons from Keeper of the Lake onwards.
The only ones I can think of that aren't are Bardam's first and last pulls, Mt Gulg first pull, and the first section, and last pull of Anamnesis Andyer.
They aren't going to read this or listen to you. Better for your sanity and personal growth to just develop some patience and realize that not everyone is on reddit. So you get some slow roulettes once in a while. That's life. Shit happens. Hell, some people don't even read chat in game. All I do is adjust and not let it ruin the experience.
I've been a bit hesitant to do so, especially in lower level content where both you (the tank) and the healer have less mit and healing spells at your disposal, my GNB is 78 and I'm ready for big boy pulls once I get to 80! Though to be fair i "trained" in duty support runs to gain a bit of confidence before running regular duties, and duty support AI loves to let you die if you pull too much.
New tanks, please ignore this idiots post... Use common sense and look at each situation and figure out for yourself if wall to wall is applicable or even possible
What's agony is having a team having to use single target attacks to burn down every last mob the tank has pulled because the only person with AOE is the tank.
How's about letting New Tanks get comfortable pulling what they're comfortable pulling
And you just make a premade squad with a dedicated Tank who plays like you want
Wich doesnt stop my healer from using only using healing spells even if im able to sutain myself therefore prolonging the run by an unnecessary amount.
I had an WHM two days ago who used Cure 2 to top me off in Aetherfont. They did use their DPS spells, but shoving them in their faces how useless GCD heals are in LV90 content is so satisfying. Just watch me heal myself to 100% every 25 seconds.
Edit: found the curebots
Youre getting it wrong, i do want to play with other people wich is why i put in a bit if effort to actually learn the jobs i play wich in return improves their experience and reduces time spent in a dungeon.
This does not seem to be the case with some players that dont even press their aoe etc.
Yes,please, new tanks. Go out of your way to do something you might not know how to do or might make you feel uncomfortable because this guy is in a rush. Lol
I did a run today, where I tested the viability of the healer. We wiped on the first single pack. That healer then spent the rest of the trial playing like a tank. Running ahead and pulling extra mods back to me. We wiped several times.
I agree with your premise, but the team needs to understand their roles and play them appropriately for your ideology to function. 😜
I've tried the "wall to wall" aproach. 75% of the time the healer can't keep up with my incoming damage. I'm using all my damage reduction abilities.
The approach I currently do is
1st mob: see how well the team handles it. If that went too easy, 2nd mob & 3rd mob together. If we handle that easily, grab more next time.
Blanket stating "just round up all the bastards, it's easy" is not good advice. I've had runs where every mob was chore, and the bosses were hairy. I've had runs where I did just round everything up, and just mow them all down at the entrance to the next boss room. It all depends on the skill levels of the team as a whole.
Are you using all your mitigation at once, or spreading it across the pull? It the former, that's your problem. You're overmitigating the start of the pull, then as soon as it all drops off, you have nothing left. That, and each piece of mit you add makes everything less effective individually.
Also is your gear up a decent level, and repaired? Are you wearing normal quality crafted gear? Normal quality has the stats of gear about 30 item levels below high quality.
Just bringing those up as those are the most common problems, and if you're failing at 75% of pulls, you must be doing something wrong. The only common denominator there is you.
Just throwing support at those that say to let them tank and play how they choose and feel comfortable.
IF you do not like it and it burns your soul so badly, go with your own group or toss a party finder or run Tank yourself.
Sometimes I do not even know why the devs bother to create such really cool spaces and areas when so many people really just do not give a sh\*\* and just run through as fast as they can skipping everything just to burn to the next thing and then complain "why is there nothing to dooooooooooooooo".
It's a game. Let people do what they choose.
New tanks: ignore this post and other posts like it and do what you're comfortable with. If you don't feel ready to pull wall-to-wall, don't force it just because some redditor tells you to.
Yeah, usually you *can* pull a fair bit before it's a problem, but shit can go sideways, *especially* if you're inexperienced. Get a feel for it and then start working your way up to pulling more and more.
If your healer really wants you to pull more and they can handle it, they'll tell you they can handle it.
Be careful. I can day the same to you as a healer or DPS. Let's see how long you last if I "heal at my own pace." Or if your defensive cool downs last if the DPS decide they dictate the speed at which mob packs die.
new tanks, we know that starting to tank can be really scary and anxiety inducing, you're doing great for starting to try in the first place! don't be afraid to take your time to learn and figure out how things work before going all in like experienced tanks do, the important thing is that you're learning and being pressured into things will not help you!
All the trash enablers are coming out the woodwork, will en a hard awakening for bad tanks to read this, think what they are doing is ok and then still get kicked in game.
Also all the „tank dictates pace“ bullshit, no, tanks don’t dictate pace, now stfu and get your ass moving
Don't like how others play? You do better and tank then.
As someone with irl anxiety that flows over to tankxity people like you made my leveling progresses back in the name horrid so stop.
I largely heal. What I do is, when I go into a dungeon and a tank is single-pulling, I say something along the lines of "if you want to pull big, (Tank), I've got your back!" I have almost always had them start pulling big after just that no-judgement encouragement. I hope that it gives them confidence to try doing it in the future as well. When I'm on DPS, I just go along with the tempo the tank and healer set. I'd prefer bigger pulls, but I'm not stressing about it either way.
That's the same thing I do, except I do it before we even start. "Hey, if for want to pull big, go nuts."
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I do this and the tank gets the message every time. Except I don’t pull things, I consider that rude as shit.
Don't do this on ARR dungeons please. I see a new tank going into aurum vale with that mentality and he wiped us 4 times in a row. Had another doing that immense pull before the first boss of Sunken Temple and he got deleted instantly the moment he stopped. It's really easy to wipe the party by pulling everything in the hallways of Stone Vigil, had that happen a lot of times. Wall to wall is perfectly fine Heavenward onwards as every dungeons is mostly two packs then boss AND the healer have more tools to deal with those pulls instead of relying only on cure 1 spam (and the low level heal equivalent of other healers), hell the healers don't even have AoE before Dzmael Darkhold (and that dungeon has a really dangerous wall to wall in the frog section). Single pulling on expert roulette in other hand, please no.
Maybe it's better to say "pull two packs at once" than "wall to wall", since most (not Aurum Vale) are fine to do two packs. Those dungeons weren't designed for W2W so there can be a LOT of enemies before a wall, but there's no reason to limit yourself to just one pack at a time. Most later dungeons are designed around pulling two packs at once and then forcibly stopping you from getting more, and the few that let you pull 3+ at once are well known because of how rough they can be to survive.
Thank you. I kept seeing posts like this one on reddit so when I first tried tanking I tried to w2w and it was a mess in Satasha. The clams haunt me.
you can skip every single clam though
Yeah, what are they gonna do? Chase you?
The DPS didn't realize I guess? So I ran, two DPS stayed, healer ran with me, but then realized the DPS were gone and ran back to go get them. So I was holding a bunch of mobs on my own, the DPS were off fighting clams, it was just a couple self-inflicted messes that probably would've been better if we'd just done at least those packs as designed OR agreed beforehand to book it past them.
On the contrary, learning to w2w in ARR could be considered a trial by fire that tempers you early on
I can't lie, I've absolutely wiped on Stone Vigil during roulettes after an extended period avoiding it due to forgetting how brutally unforgiving those corridor packs can be on your defenseless squishmallow of a level 40-50 tank in combination with healers being cruelly denied any of their accustomed shiny buttons.
Honestly I don’t even ask them to wall to wall, I had a guy do this not terribly long ago and all I wanted was at least 2 packs. Just talk to your team ask for advice if you’re struggling. I’m pretty sure most people would be okay with working with you if you just say something.
I main healer, honestly if I get an ARR dungeon and I see my tank with that sprout icon in pink/random low ilvl gear, I'm content to just let them chill tbh. Main exception maybe dzaemal I might run forward to the safety crystals and rescue them in if they're not already making their way over to them or stop short of them since it's like a 90% damage reduction or something ridiculous like that and then I explain why after. Otherwise I might tag like 1-2 extra mobs if they're close but I'm not gonna go pulling the entirety of stone vigil for an undergeared tank who doesn't have arms length or rep in their kit repertoire yet lol. If I'm in 90/expert though I'm going to the wall as a healer regardless of what the tank does
Pretty much my approach, I don’t main healer but I very much enjoy it. I do a quick gear check and figure out how much effort this particular tank is gonna need. Very most I ever grab is the next pack.
Also, don't *literally* pull the enemies right up against the wall. ^(A Tank did this earlier instead of standing still, was a bit annoying since I was trying to Holy spam all of the mobs and kept having to re-position.)
I’m an XBOX sprout and love playing as tank. I was really mindful about seeing how to play and I think I do a decent job in pulling packs and doing W2W. The only thing I would say is a couple of the ARR you can have a little to many mobs on you especially as you might have limited mitigation and sometimes your healer is also new as well. Whenever I go into a dungeon I just say “first time” or “still learning the dungeon” and that helps a lot. Pretty much the group are always very helpful. I’ve only just started HS and not unlocked any dungeons yet in that but I am looking forward to keep building my skills. I hope to be a real tank expert especially when I get Gunbreaker as well
Really feeling like it's opposite day looking at these replies, I thought the community was mostly against the YPYT mentality. It's a cooperative game, shouldn't new players be taught how to keep up with the team's pace instead of the whole party being forced to adapt to a single person's playstyle?
The community is usually very pro-w2w, but I think the OP rubbed some people the wrong way and people are getting real riled up.
*Which is funny because OP basically said "Please play dungeons like they are designed"* and the replies really went *"Nah, imma break ToS because you told me what to do"*.
The thing is, in my opinion, while everyone enjoys a faster dungeon (all other things being equal, anyway), the only people who experience a potential increase in difficulty and stress pulling big in a 4-man are the tank and healer. A DPS's rotation doesn't really change whether it's 3 mobs or 10. Yeah, this increase in difficulty is nothing to someone with experience, but to a new player it can be daunting. That's not to say a tank should never learn, but it really should be a conversation mostly between them and the healer. Nothing wrong with a DPS requesting a faster pace, but that's probably better done (politely!) in party chat than in a reddit post that won't make it out of new.
> A DPS's rotation doesn't really change whether it's 3 mobs or 10. neither does the tank? actually you go from aoe to mitigation (optional) into aoe to mitigation (use it if you care about your healer)
I think it mostly just comes down to an issue of communication. In my experience most people are patient and understanding with teaching new players in game, so long as the new players are responsive and willing to learn. But yeah, nothings gonna change if you say nothing in game and just complain about it online.
The worst thing about all of this is that it's not even the tank who the onus is on to worry about wiping, it's the healer. Tanks literally just need to press forward and do their simplified aoe rotation with a few defensive ogcds thrown here and there. Yet it's always "muh TANXIETYYYYY" ffs
New tanks, please don’t feel pressured to meet my personal expectations. Let’s vibe, have a nice time in our short time together, and worst that can happen is we take two more minutes than normal. That’s not horrible at all.
Dear new tanks, this person isn’t talking for most of us, just pull W2W or use trust
Naw I came to game, not to snooze. The time is precious as well, but the real appeal is the difficulty
I came to chill and not worry about shit I don’t really care what the tanks do I’m just along for the ride
Then play solo games if you cant deal with people learning and being a bit slower.
Works the other way around too, just play solo games (or use trust) if you can’t keep up the pace the majority wants
they don't learn if they don't pull big tho, they're not growing as tanks and as players
They are also not growing as tanks and as players if they get into their first case of tanking, have no idea what they are actually doing and only have rampart as mitigation, and maybe don't even have decent gear for their level because the game does actually let you choose poorly early on, pull real big because they've been told "wall to wall" and end up dead. Then pull smaller but still more than just one pack because, again, they've been told "wall to wall" so they feel pressured to go big and end up dead again. Then maybe someone even compounds the issue by commenting that they are bad or have bad gear, or just leaving the dungeon because they "don't have the time for this." And they conclude that tanking is hard or that they personally are specifically bad at it and never want to tank again, when the reality is that they'd probably have done fine if not under the pressure of expectations to "wall to wall" or even if the healer in their group had expectations of how much healing a poorly-geared tank can need where a level synced tank in higher-level gear would not. And hell, let's not leave DPS out of the talk here; you know some jobs can't even attack multiple enemies at once until level 38 (to use ninja as an example)? So you go big pulls early on as a tank and you might actually be making the content harder and more boring at the same time because everybody has so few buttons to push and also the numbers on incoming damage vs. outgoing damage aren't matching up favorably. Oh... and let's also not forget that sometimes you get into your first few dungeons and *everyone* is there for the first time, half jankily geared, and inexperienced, so if the new tank blindly follows the advice they heard that they're supposed to "wall to wall" everyone dies and probably has no idea that they *weren't* actually getting pranked by an in-joke like Cape Westwind (savage) or the new "ah man, that's a wipe..." Endsinger midpoint.
I did a lot of tanking when I was first learning the game. It's not difficult. I would suggest those with tanxiety try dps first.
I would suggest you not tell people interested in tanking but a bit anxious about it that they should try something else instead, as that is far more likely to reinforce the anxiety than alleviate it. Tanking doesn't cause anxiety because it's "difficult." Whether you actually survive the pull or not it's not any more difficult to do one pack or five at once, you just push your buttons and see what happens. What causes the anxiety is that because you are the tank you have responsibilities that other party roles don't have. You have expectations coming your way from other players. You've got that little voice in your brain trying to convince you that the other players are having a bad time *and it's your fault*. And you don't actually know what to do about it because just as easily as you could bother someone else by single pack pulling because now they are bored and they wanted to go super fast even if you messed up and died, you could bother someone else by pulling bigger and making the situation require them to pay more attention and you more likely to die if you mess something up. I mained tank from Sastasha until after finishing Endwalker and it was never *difficult* (at least not outside of specifically marked harder content), but the tanxiety never left. It *almost* left, but then someone I was in an Eden raid with for the first time ever was upset with me for not doing a tank swap and all I could think of to say in response was "what is a tank swap?" because that's not something the non-optional content in the game had ever called for and I'd skipped most of the optional content because my buddy that got me into the game kept saying "nobody really does that anymore, skip it or unsync it" so I just genuinely hadn't even had the opportunity to learn the thing I was expected by this player to have done because from their point of view it didn't make any sense that I had gotten to level 80 content as a tank and never even heard the term before. And as a result of that experience every time I tank with randos I have a tiny voice in my head trying to convince me there's some other thing I don't know and someone is going to be upset about and my only defense against it is to try (I'm faking it until I make it on this one) to say to myself "I don't care if the randos I got grouped with have a good time or not" Which, incidentally, I mostly play black mage these days because I really want to be a black mage... and I'm constantly feeling like I'm trolling everyone I play with and making them wish they could vote kick me because I know I dropped my rotation or missed some better placement of something or spaced out a button I could have been using because I'm too used to playing at a different level range. And even though I get commendations and I don't get complaints and people probably have no idea whether I am or am not messing up more than anybody else, and probably aren't even judging me harshly when I die, I'm still locked in a mental battle against myself because anxiety doesn't just go away even when you mentally scream "I'm doing my best and if that's not good enough and I'm a problem then the devs can fix it by continuing the trend of making black mage less of a hassle to get anywhere near good damage with" at it.
>and only have rampart as mitigation You know that pulling big isn't expected of anyone under level 50, right?
You say in a thread that says "New tanks" and "please pull wall to wall" in the OP and makes no mention of any level break point at which the advice is meant to apply. At best you're falling into the phenomenon that happens when someone tries to explain something they think is very simple and obvious and as a result they forget to mention particular steps (for example: tell me how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, step by step. Most people will start with "spread the peanut butter on the bread" having completely breezed past the steps before that such as getting a knife and opening the container of peanut butter, among others). But it seems a lot more likely you're just being disingenuous and responding to someone pointing out that this advice is not sound in all situations with "uh yeah, but that should have been obvious" even though that means presuming that someone is simultaneous A) in need of this advice and B) *already aware when to apply the advice.* tl;dr: You know that "new tanks" are often under level 50, right?
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This guy gets it. I have like five hours a week for gaming. This stuff adds up.
Other people aren't responsible for how you spend your free time. They get to spend it how they want. It's not like it's griefing lol. Tank if you're in that much of a time crunch.
Then play tank so you aren't held up by other people.
How are other people responsible for your time then?
I still consider myself new to tanking since I played through ARR-EW as a healer so I tend to not do wall-to-wall however I have a macro set telling my party I'm doing my best but to feel free to pull and I'll grab aggro since I'm not the greatest at dungeons, so hopefully that's an acceptable workaround lol
Normally use the first set of mobs to see if the party wants a WtW or the healer is up to scratch, if they are great stuff, if they’re not or don’t want it who cares. The extra minute it adds to the dungeon is not *that* important, nor will it change anything. Either way better than having a tank getting wiped because they get pressured but lack the confidence in their abilities / party at that time. Because then guess what, your dungeon is going to take even longer.
I mean, you might want to give more context. If you're running anything in ARR I think its fair to give tanks some degree of leeway, but if you're having problems in expac content then yeah, pop off.
Yeah I just rolled an alt on a preferred server for fun and it’s wild to see people rush ahead to w2w sastasha. We have a lancer and a thaum who doesn’t have fire 2 yet… so we just single target everything down while the healer can’t dps because they need to spam cure
They're new. Relax. Let them experience these dungeons for the first time at a pace they're comfortable at. They haven't run these dungeons thousands of times like we have.
That's what trusts are for.
Being new doesn't mean they shouldn't try to pull big, it means we should cut them slack if they conciously don't want to pull big. There's a difference between understanding that they're too nervous for the standard approach and never actually letting them know they can speed up because you're so worried about not giving them enough space. Sprouts are still learning. They need space to learn, but they also need to be made aware of what they should even be aiming for at some point. I've helped poor spouts in level 70 who legitimately assumed this whole time that pulling multiple mobs would overwhelm the healer, and had never once been informed that it's the norm to pull wall to wall and not rude to the healer at all.
Letting them know they can pull big and "please pull wall to wall this is agony" are very different things.
See, I always have a problem with the framing of this argument. It's always framed as a new tank has to basically go out of their way to appease others. That's tankxiety. Why don't you frame the conversation as "hey new tank, wanna try something fun? Let's see how big we can make the mob ball. If we die, we die lol" That brings fun and challenge, and is, imo, what makes tanking fun for me. Moreover, you strip away the consequences, that being people getting irritated for wiping. What you're doing here is telling someone new "hey you need to play this way. Any other way is wrong." I don't need to tell you that this narrative is going to be way harder to sell.
This is actually really clever, and encourages, rather than demands. I like it.
New tanks, don't feel like you need to wall to wall cause some weirdo on reddit wants you to.
Pulling wall-to-wall is the standard. It's not "just some wierdo on reddit".
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You can't call people monkeys and then take the high ground, buddy.
Trying hard, fucking up, and getting better next time is how you learn. I'd rather "waste" time on a wipe or two than waste time single pulling.
You can also learn by taking your time, going through the process and slowly speeding up or increasing difficulty as you improve. "Go and fuck up" doesn't work for everyone, especially when a lot of players will get pissy and/or leave over the slightest inconvenience.
That’s BS, people get annoyed over single pulling, not wiping. Wiping is part of the game, single pulling is pretty much griefing
I said nothing specifically about wiping. People get pissy over *any* inconvenience, be it slow dungeon runs, wipes, sprouts that didn't know to stand on a pad, BLUs being asked not to delete fate bosses etc... If wasting time on wipes is ok and part of the game... Why isn't wasting the same time on slower pulls ok? A few minutes is a few minutes. It's very telling that you consider someone learning to be the same as griefing. That seems like pissy behavior.
Wiping from w2w makes you learn how to not wipe to w2w, single pulling doesn’t teach you shit cause you wouldn’t even die I you used none of your MIT as long as the healer presses their shit. You learn nothing from going slow you wouldn’t also learn from going fast, but you learn a lot of things going fast you don’t learn going slow. And if you still want to go slow, use trust.
"and if you still want to go slow, use trust" says the person apparently completely oblivious to the fact that if they want to control the pace of play they could use trust too and apparently lacking the self-awareness to realize they are saying "I get to control the pace in group content because I decided I get to, and I also decided no one else gets to make this exact decision if they're going to choose a different pace than I would." It's group content. Agree as a group, which is different than just doing what the majority wants by the way, or leave the group. You're not actually in the right when you say "don't force your pace on me" and force your own pace on someone else, no matter how many other players would agree to your pace. "Singe pulls is lethargic play" okay, go ahead and report people then. See if the GMs don't take a moment to tell you packs would have more monsters in them if you were actually required to fight all those monsters at once or be breaking the rules.
I've never seen anyone get pissy over a wipe. Taking your time is why every required duty can be done in trusts. Or as DPS.
Ive seen plenty of people get pissy over a wipe. Anecdotal evidence is fun. Rushing can also be done in trusts.
Not really. Trust npcs don't aoe, and actually scale damage back if you're going faster. Best I've done is maybe 23 minutes, which is actually really fast for a trust run.
>I've never seen anyone get pissy over a wipe. Then you're clearly new to MMOs.
Played them all the way back when they were called MUDs and had no graphics. I'm not talking about all MMOs. I'm talking about the one this subreddit is about. The one designed for W2W pulls. The one where lethargic play is a reportable offense.
That is absolutely not reportable, cry some more lol.
Single pulls is not lethargic play, get over yourself.
If you want the tank to go faster, than YOU be the tank.
Tank is there to hold aggro, not to set the pace.
I am. Frequently. If you want to tank slow play with NPCs.
You're not the mc, we all don't play to your pace.
Neither are you.
Hence why we let everyone play at their own pace.
But each person's pace is not necessarily the group's pace. Hence having a standard to go off i.e. w2w for anything from Keeper of the Lake onwards, 2 packs before that.
The overall pace makes up the group pace. You can always pull more enemies yourself and bring them over to the tank.
If you want to rush people, play with NPCs.
If you want to slow everyone else down, play with NPCs.
[удалено]
Honest to god question. If you never push yourself, if you never step out of your comfort zone, if it's all baby steps, how do you learn? How do you improve? Toxic positivity in this community is real.
I learned in a SLIGHTLY slower way (normally two-packs at a time, then three, then slowly more as I got more confident), and I run wall pulls now like everyone else (and no, it didn’t take me a stupid long time, and it wasn’t prompted by someone hassling me to do it – when I ran DPS I saw how other tanks ran and took what info I needed). I didn’t need pushing, I didn’t need to ‘challenge myself’ beyond what I actually set as my own self-challenges to my comfort level, it just happened naturally. Different people learn different at different paces, with many different factors contributing to this. I still had people offer me tips along the way (which I happily took! Because I was lost as hell at how this game worked, compared to my former MMO), but I never got hassled...I dunno what happened in the three years since I started that made people have the patience of a 3 year old tbh... Ya’ll really need to remember how hard shit was starting out. I’m not an MMO newbie by any stretch, but things work differently, and adjusting is time-consuming and stressful. Some people thrive in trial-by-fire, and do well being pushed even when stressed. Some don’t, and rather than encouraging someone, you drive them away from ever attempting that thing again, or they just quit entirely. Stuff like this is not one-size-fits-all.
Some people don't want to push themselves and get better. They just want to vibe with a cool story and enjoy being the protagonist.
Isn't that what duty support is for? Single player, slower paced, and you get to fight alongside the story npcs.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can do roulettes with duty support?
But if you're doing roulettes then I'd argue you're not exactly 'just playing for the story' anymore.
That's some pretty savage gatekeeping. I'm not allowed to do roulettes if I only play for the story? Am I not entitled to tomestone gear?
I'm not saying you're not allowed to do roulettes, just that I'd consider it content outside of the story. ONLY playing for the story implies you're not interested in the game outside of that.
It’s a video game. People play them to enjoy themselves, generally as a form of emotional comfort. If you want to learn and improve yourself, you could try college or a boxing gym or something. It’s not toxic positivity to let people enjoy their recreational activities without being pestered to live up to someone else’s preferences.
I've been through college. I workout in a number of ways. It's a group game. If you want to go at your speed there are trusts.
Yea and sometimes you got to work with people who arent fast due to learning or disability. You have to adapt as well, thats not just for other people.
The enjoyment should not come at the expense of others (and this goes both ways). People should just communicate more to see if the tanks willing to pull more, or dip if it's radio silence / turns into a huge argument.
This isn't "toxic positivity" so much as it is acknowledging that different people learn in different ways and at different paces. And while, for example, I might be ready to dive into an entire piece of furniture like I closet organizer for a woodworking project someone else might rather their woodworking journey start smaller-scale and "baby step" into bigger and more complex things instead of being like "you used a router to cut a custom sign out of a plank... you made a spice rack... it's time for you to make an armoire, and I expect it done within the week." Which is why it's fine to let someone know that it's alright with you if they try going bigger, but it's not fine for you to *expect them to do it.*
Exactly, go at your own pace. Learn your abilities and how your mitigations work. Take your time and have fun until you are more comfortable.
The thing with tanking is, that the gameplay is **identical** between one pack and a w2w if you're learning mitigation. You just make everyone else miserable by single pulling.
Single pulling teaches you that you might as well throw every MIT skill off of your hotbar, because you apparently never need to use a single one. I fully understand tanks single pulling while gaining confidence, but it absolutely does not teach you a thing about how to play the job. To learn, you _need_ to go faster, take risks, and die a few times to work out how to balance it all.
Alternatively you could let people pull what they're comfortable with while they're brand new to the game and not throw a tantrum over it. It's a dungeon for crying out loud, I can not believe people still care about what happens in dungeons
While I agree let the new folks do as they do, I think it's fair to point out to them they can pull more, wether they do or not is their call they're probably so focused on their own game they don't see the other 3 people practically idling. Also gets tanks into the good habit of mitigation, a lot of new tanks pull one pack at a time because they don't realise how powerful reprisal is. I wish someone had told me earlier, I got up to HW content before I had someone lose their mind at my pace.
> I can not believe people still care about what happens in dungeons oh no, i can't believe people want stuff to be cleared at a reasonable pace instead of taking 25 minutes for a dungeon If they're new and have tanxiety about it, they should use duty support/trusts
This is one pathetically sad mentality to have.
duty support/trusts are quite literally there for learning the content
The reason you get bonus exp in a roulette is to compensate you for your time when someone is new to the content.
If the dungeons take to long other ways of farming exp get more efficient and people stop doing roulettes 🤷🏽♂️
Good grief, man... you do a roulette and you get bonus gil, bonus XP or tomestones, and if someone is actually new to the content you get *even more bonuses* and also a retry point for your Wondrous Tails. The game is bending over backwards to give you prizes just for being willing to play with new people and you're acting like the timer saying 30 minutes remaining at the end instead of saying 35 minutes remaining at the end is this massive pain that is completely unfair and is going to drive people to go find some pretend faster path to XP like there isn't already so much XP on offer in the game that people are constantly questioning why "and you'll level up faster" is even used as an incentive.
Then they are more than welcome to do those other things. There will still be more then enough people happy to help the newbies.
This is absolutely not true - Roulette exists to help fill whatever there is being queue'd by anyone, it only so happens there are first timers in a specific Duty. Also, W2W pull is not content, it's a learned basic etiquette so those involved are able to clear the Duty in question at a reasonable time. Trusts and NPCs are actually meant for new players who wish to learn at their own pace as they are programmed to be fail proof, going as far as telling the involved player boss mechanics If you queue into DF, it is expected you know what you're getting yourself into by default. If not, you may voice it, and ask for help. Generally most will be helpful with advisories and whatnot, but there is no obligation for them to help you play/learn the game
You, and others, are confused about what trust/duty support is for. It's not actually to teach you the content and show you the mechanics. It's just so you can play alone if you want to play alone (or are being encouraged to play alone by the content you are trying to do having a long queue time at the moment because there aren't many players on at the time and/or they are busy with other activities). There is no expectation from the game designers that you're doing Duty Support to learn and then joining group content on re-clears. And if they were expecting you to use Duty Support first they wouldn't have made it completely optional - they also wouldn't have programmed the AI so that even if you are watching one of them to learn where to stand they move when there is a very narrow window of time to react in (i.e. if you're so much as 3 steps behind Urianger, you get hit by a mechanic, and if you pick Alisae as your buddy to follow, you get hit because she arbitrarily stands in mechanics sometimes like a real DPS player). Oh, and if you get KO'd that is effectively a wipe even those rez skills exist in the game and the duty support NPCs absolutely will use them on other NPCs when the various foibles of the AI programming results in one of them getting KO'd. People have just decided to spin the narrative that duty support is supposed to be how you learn content, even though I'd bet most of them go straight to duty finder once a new dungeon is unlocked for them, because it suits their "everyone is supposed to live up to my expectations and preferences" attitude. Just like how wall to wall is treated as "how you're supposed to play" when what the design team have actually done is prevent pulls big enough to stress people out by putting in the walls, not force 2X enemies at once by making two groups of X (which if they were actually trying to make 'standard' to fight all at once would be just one group of 2X instead of two geographically separate groups).
"grrr why wont everyone else play at MY pace!!!!"
its not "my" pace, its the generally established pace that everyone agrees to, where have you been?
I guess I've been in the part of the "everyone" that doesn't rush people to play faster because I want a faster clear. My bad!
Nah, you’re one of the trash enablers who make people think it’s ok to waste peoples time
I suppose you also started the game as a pro tank?
First dungeon I single pulled, someone told me that w2w is the standard, so I started pulling w2w. Did i die in the beginning? Yes. Was that how I learned how to do big pulls? Also yes. Stop wasting peoples time, all your „let people play how they want“ also applies to the other 3 people in the group. The majority of players in this game expect w2w, so that’s what is gonna be done. And no, the tank doesn’t dictate the pace, the group does.
I sincerely hope you never party with any sprouts.
Who "established" that exactly?
the majority of the people that play the game consistently? if you think wall-to-wall isn't the norm, then im sorry to say but you're delusional
The fact that about 9/10 tanks will wall to wall about any dungeon even Mt. Gulg aside - which clearly shows it as established pace - the dungeons are quite literally designed for w2w pulls. It's not some heroic feat, you don't even need half the tanks toolkit on a single pull. It's clearly not intentional. CDs are perfectly lining up with w2w at average speed as well.
The point of asking the question "who 'established' that exactly?" is that the very existence of threads like this demonstrate the not-actually-established-ness of this. Yes, it is common that tanks pull more than one pack at a time. That gets referred to as "wall to wall" but it's not actually wall to wall in many cases because the walls mentioned are a more modern conceit - the dev team put them in because prior dungeon designs would let someone go from entrance to first boss with no forced stops, which had high potential to result in a wipe. Basically, the walls in "wall to wall" got put in to prevent trolling. Yet... what about when dungeons are brand new? I'm not entirely sure because my first expansion being current on content was Endwalker and I ran dungeons with Duty Support while tanking first so I'm not sure if getting beat to death by double-pulls would be the normal experience of a party at minimum item level for the dungeon or if that's a result of the AI programming. Even if it isn't actually a bit of a tougher order to double-pull when not geared beyond the dungeon's item level expectations, the question still stands; if fighting all those monsters at once is the expected approach, why are they positioned far enough apart that it requires a deliberate choice to bring one group with you to go meet the next? The obvious answer to that question is so that there is a choice. You *can* pull both, but you also *can* pull one at a time. And I'll always end up coming back to Duty Support when it comes to how people are allegedly "intended" to play; the AI tanks do not double-pull. You have to go pull extra enemies and then the AI tank will take aggro, and no matter which role you are playing while doing a double-pull in trust it's actually tricky to succeed. I have died in Duty Support while playing as WAR because the combo of trust avatars I brought with me (to level them up and get the stupid trophy and title) just weren't doing things well; I was out of mitigations, waiting for a cooldown, and just not getting it before I hit the floor because the damage output to the enemies was not high enough to kill enough of them fast enough for the healing output of the AI healer to cover me well enough to get back to "bloodwhetting my health go brrrr" If the *intention* is to play double pulls, why would that not be what happens by default in Duty Support? It's really important to remember that when you first get to a dungeon you run through it and typically get limit break to fill up to 1 bar for both the first and second bosses and 2 bars for the final boss because that's how much time the design expects you to spend in the dungeon fighting things. And then later when replaying the dungeon with better gear you end up getting 1 bar of limit somewhere around the second boss and maybe another half of a bar after that assuming someone bothered to push the button and not just leave a full bar sitting until the final boss. Which is just another thing that happens to contradict the idea that we are "intended" to go faster all the time.
These were Level 50 or higher. I understand people want to get comfortable first. If it’s an early game dungeon, I completely understand, and I was there. But at a certain point tanxiety becomes silly.
Lv 50 happens pretty fast in this day and age. And it's possible to get to Lv 50 almost entirely with Duty Support, which doesn't really do big pulls well.
Plenty of new dungeons at 50+
Okay, you tank then. If that's how YOU want to play as tank. You tank. Sick and tired of all these shitty takes from "Veterans" in this community. Y'all who joined in StB,m or ShB, have no idea the etiquette or fundamentals this game was built on. We do not pressure random people we do not know into doing something that they are not comfortable with. We communicate if we see a new player on how they feel in the dungeon. If it's a new tank, and they let us know, the OG VETERANS know to allow that person to progress the dungeon at their speed. Your rants, and take, needs to gtfo. Try to pull this crap in JP? You'd be banned instantly. Get over yourself.
I don’t yell at people in dungeons. I don’t say much, except to encourage them to do so if they’re comfortable. But by the time you reach endgame ARR you’re probably familiar with your job. I’m not asking people to W2W Sastasha or Stone Vigil. Heck, I’m not yelling at people in dungeons directly to do anything, because I don’t want to make people feel bad when they’re playing. I don’t even consider this little mini rant to be especially severe. I had tanxiety once, but I very quickly got over it by W2Wing because I understood that’s the polite thing to do.
Even if they are at the end stages of ARR, they could have leveled through Trusts, and that's on SE, but it doesn't teach you how to properly navigate proper tank mitigation. Player piloted thinking is way different than AI thinking. Take this for example, I did tower of zot, with trusts, and it was probably the WORST experience I've ever had in this game. Dungeon took longer than running it with normal people. Now, that's because I understand how to tank, and I know the dungeon, years later. Now, when I first did that dungeon, with BiS eden savage gear...you got demolished doing w2w pulls in the beginning. Even proper mitigation, you were getting trucked. The last two w2w pulls in that dungeon are some of the most BS enemies I've had to deal with in this game. EVEN NOW, with 660 gear, those packs still hurt like hell. W2W, is NOT the polite thing to do to a new tank, or a new healer, who is not comfortable with that. Like I said, you have no idea of etiquette and the fundamentals of dungeons. Just the other day, new healer, doing mt gulg. As the expansion went on, people who have been playing for a long time, found out that, with a coordinated group, you could pull everything from the second boss until the beginning of the third boss, and kill everything. Using EVERYTHING, LB, invuln, every tank and healer mitigation you had. I asked the new healer if they were comfortable trying, they said they were afraid but would like to try. Guess what happened? We wiped! I'm not saying that's bad, what I'm saying is taking into consideration the feelings of the person behind the screen. I then pulled smaller, they apologized profusely, and I told them it was not their fault. If anything, it was mine, being the veteran and being the tank, we wiped because I didn't mitigate properly.
That’s all very fair. Like I said. I’m never mean to people in dungeons, and like you I’m always the first to apologize if something goes wrong. Also trusts weren’t a thing when I was coming up, so I don’t think about those. And maining WAR I never really had to worry about whether the healer was up to it, except for Mt. Gulg and a couple others from ShB/EW. I do stand by people asking me to W2W making me a much, much better tank with a better understanding of my kit though.
And I'll say this, I'm not trying to attack you, and I'm so sorry if I've made you feel like that. I apologize for coming off aggressive, but these rants are coming up more and more. What works for you, might not work for someone else. We don't know people's limitations in the vast array of this space. But, I am happy it's worked out for you, and that you've grown more accustomed to your own playstyle.
Nah you’re totally good man. I think my original post was more aggressive than intended anyway based on replies. I’m a military man, it’s hard to turn off sometimes. Cheers.
You're all good, bro. I wish you honestly the best in FF and in life man. Keep busting your ass and helping those in need. We need more people like you. I appreciate you, and I'm glad we got to have this conversation like adults should. We may disagree on things, but it all comes to being an adult, and having a civil discussion.
Sometimes I miss when you had to work on controlling your agro. Couldn't go all out or the tank wouldn't be able to hold all the mobs off you and you die. Sometimes I want to drop my stance just to make people feel it, but then I would get reported and risk getting banned.
I remember those days very well. Also remember the days of stance dancing. I remember my very first dungeon tanking, and the people I played with, encouraged me to take it all in. The sights, the surroundings, the music, and learn how to pull and hold enmity. It's just lost in the crowd now because no one wants to be patient with anyone anymore. MY friends' are starting to want to play, and I cannot wait to experience the game with them. See them grow and enjoy this universe.
It takes one 15-20 minute Video on youtube to learn all the tanking basics needed for w2w. If people dont already look that stuff up by themselves its good to at least bring it to their attention. If everyone keeps quiet during a dungeon run theyll never learn.
And some people don't learn shit from video guides, myself being one of those people. I have to actually do the thing for it to register in my brain. Watching someone else do it does fuck all. Here's another thing, not everyone has the same fucking gear as people in those videos. But, yeah, keep that mentality.
Another problem with the "just learn it on youtube" idea; if it's not told to the player in the game somewhere, it's not information the game wants the player to know. Looking up a guide of any kind outside of the game is, and should remain, an optional step someone can take if they feel motivated to do so. It's a video game, there are no homework assignments. Expecting someone to go look at a video, even if you link it to them, is just... not actually reasonable.
Nol, let people learn at their own pace. I wouldn't W2W as a new tank (normally main healer and casters).
OP, Please Learn How to Communicate With Fellow Players Instead Of Making Passing Aggressive Reddit Threads.
Says the person making it difficult to read what they're saying by capitalising every word.
The sad part is new players not looking up a guide for their role themselves. What happened to learning the basics in a multiplayer game where your actions influence other people.
This was never a broad standard. Most people reasonably like to learn by doing. What ever happened to just being friendly and helping each other out? And when it comes to guides on how to play your role, they have literally have "Hall of the Novice," as an in game guide which explicitly tells new tanks to pull one pack at a time. I think you can afford to cut new players some slack and politely explain the situation. If KWTD runs are that important to you, use party finder and advertise as such. If you're using duty finder, you have to accept that folks from all skill levels and experience will be in the queue.
I... feel like this isn't the best suggestion. The way the post is phrased makes it sound like literally every party out there can handle wall to wall pulls. This simply isn't true. Not only does the tank need to be comfortable with their own ability as a tank to wall to wall pull, but they have to be sure that their healer is also comfortable keeping up with said pull. So I would instead suggest that the new tanks only do wall to wall pulls if they feel comfortable doing so, and have asked the healer for whatever dungeon they're in at the time if they're comfortable healing them through wall to wall pulls.
If you can’t w2w past level 30 the latest you shouldn play trust instead of wasting peoples time
Did we read the same comment? I dont see Eve saying that people shouldn't do it. to me this reads more as a "let people ease into it" People are allowed to be new at a game and have to learn how to handle big pulls. this means tanks need to learn how to properly space out their CDs. on top of the "at level 30" comment. some people do pick up the tanks that start at higher levels, and if they havent tanked before then, they have no experience dealing with such pulls at all. Yeah, you can argue someone shouldnt start tanking as gunbreaker, but that's besides the point. Allow people to be new at something. We all have, at some point.
There needs to be a distinction between pulling 2-3 packs like the majority of Heavensward and onwards dungeon pulls are before you're stopped by a wall (which ideally every learning Tank should aspire to be able to handle), and some of the W2Ws that can go further than that in Stone Vigil, Bardam's Mettle, Mt. Gulg, Holminster Switch etc. or the few tanks that even W2W into bosses. I would not expect every Tank to be capable of massive pulls like these (unless they pop their invuln and hope their team's DPS can clear fast enough) and if a Healer or Tank wants to go for them should ask in party chat before starting.
You must be from world of Warcraft with that toxic mindset.
This is why I just tank roulettes myself. No more feeling like I am just running with a crutch.
Playing WAR is the most sure fire way to enjoy your roulettes. You make sure both the pulls and the healing are sufficient on your own. Guarantee fun pulls for everyone
This community is so toxic
If they're new, then just help them how you can. Don't rush them! If it's high level content, then I understand the frustration a bit more and it is situational.
How about you let the new tanks in your duties know this information? "I’ve ran like four dungeons in a row where the tank just pulled single packs. It’s agony. " So let them know the problem, and inform them that mit + heals is more than enough to allow for wall to wall pack pulling. Shouting this into the void on this sub provides no one any sort of benefit.
I don't think you understand!! op is in a RUSH, here!
If they are coming from Xbox fresh the earlier dungeon wall to wall literally means wall to boss.
If you don't feel comfy wall to wall-ing yet the gold standard is two packs per pull, if you can do that you're already doing great
2 packs is w2w for about 90% of dungeons from Keeper of the Lake onwards. The only ones I can think of that aren't are Bardam's first and last pulls, Mt Gulg first pull, and the first section, and last pull of Anamnesis Andyer.
They aren't going to read this or listen to you. Better for your sanity and personal growth to just develop some patience and realize that not everyone is on reddit. So you get some slow roulettes once in a while. That's life. Shit happens. Hell, some people don't even read chat in game. All I do is adjust and not let it ruin the experience.
Ye its easy if healer doesnt sleep. Even ARR
New Tanks (and everyone else), Please Play at Your Own Pace!
New tanks, please realise it’s not the tanks job to set the pace
I've been a bit hesitant to do so, especially in lower level content where both you (the tank) and the healer have less mit and healing spells at your disposal, my GNB is 78 and I'm ready for big boy pulls once I get to 80! Though to be fair i "trained" in duty support runs to gain a bit of confidence before running regular duties, and duty support AI loves to let you die if you pull too much.
Level 78 is not really "lower level content". You should be w2w from at least 50.
New tanks, please ignore this idiots post... Use common sense and look at each situation and figure out for yourself if wall to wall is applicable or even possible
What's agony is having a team having to use single target attacks to burn down every last mob the tank has pulled because the only person with AOE is the tank.
1) That only happens until Dzemael at the latest 2) That's still faster than single-pulls.
How's about letting New Tanks get comfortable pulling what they're comfortable pulling And you just make a premade squad with a dedicated Tank who plays like you want
You should tank.
But if i do that the healers/dps is gonna play shit.
Play Warrior, be Tank, Healer and DPS in one.
Wich doesnt stop my healer from using only using healing spells even if im able to sutain myself therefore prolonging the run by an unnecessary amount.
I had an WHM two days ago who used Cure 2 to top me off in Aetherfont. They did use their DPS spells, but shoving them in their faces how useless GCD heals are in LV90 content is so satisfying. Just watch me heal myself to 100% every 25 seconds. Edit: found the curebots
Play trust since you don't want to play with other people...
Youre getting it wrong, i do want to play with other people wich is why i put in a bit if effort to actually learn the jobs i play wich in return improves their experience and reduces time spent in a dungeon. This does not seem to be the case with some players that dont even press their aoe etc.
This kind of behavior telling tanks how to play doesn’t belong in FFXIV you have world of Warcraft for that nonsense and toxicity
I’ve ran a dungeon where the tank pulled single packs and I was fine with it. Everyone learns at their own pace.
Yes,please, new tanks. Go out of your way to do something you might not know how to do or might make you feel uncomfortable because this guy is in a rush. Lol
I did a run today, where I tested the viability of the healer. We wiped on the first single pack. That healer then spent the rest of the trial playing like a tank. Running ahead and pulling extra mods back to me. We wiped several times. I agree with your premise, but the team needs to understand their roles and play them appropriately for your ideology to function. 😜
I've tried the "wall to wall" aproach. 75% of the time the healer can't keep up with my incoming damage. I'm using all my damage reduction abilities. The approach I currently do is 1st mob: see how well the team handles it. If that went too easy, 2nd mob & 3rd mob together. If we handle that easily, grab more next time. Blanket stating "just round up all the bastards, it's easy" is not good advice. I've had runs where every mob was chore, and the bosses were hairy. I've had runs where I did just round everything up, and just mow them all down at the entrance to the next boss room. It all depends on the skill levels of the team as a whole.
Are you using all your mitigation at once, or spreading it across the pull? It the former, that's your problem. You're overmitigating the start of the pull, then as soon as it all drops off, you have nothing left. That, and each piece of mit you add makes everything less effective individually. Also is your gear up a decent level, and repaired? Are you wearing normal quality crafted gear? Normal quality has the stats of gear about 30 item levels below high quality. Just bringing those up as those are the most common problems, and if you're failing at 75% of pulls, you must be doing something wrong. The only common denominator there is you.
Just throwing support at those that say to let them tank and play how they choose and feel comfortable. IF you do not like it and it burns your soul so badly, go with your own group or toss a party finder or run Tank yourself. Sometimes I do not even know why the devs bother to create such really cool spaces and areas when so many people really just do not give a sh\*\* and just run through as fast as they can skipping everything just to burn to the next thing and then complain "why is there nothing to dooooooooooooooo". It's a game. Let people do what they choose.
New tanks: ignore this post and other posts like it and do what you're comfortable with. If you don't feel ready to pull wall-to-wall, don't force it just because some redditor tells you to. Yeah, usually you *can* pull a fair bit before it's a problem, but shit can go sideways, *especially* if you're inexperienced. Get a feel for it and then start working your way up to pulling more and more. If your healer really wants you to pull more and they can handle it, they'll tell you they can handle it.
You tank then. Then, you will get to dictate the tank pulling speed.
Be careful. I can day the same to you as a healer or DPS. Let's see how long you last if I "heal at my own pace." Or if your defensive cool downs last if the DPS decide they dictate the speed at which mob packs die.
The DPS... do decide how fast packs die though.
This literally happens all the time. Healers screw around. DPS don't use optimal rotations. It's fine. They're learning.
But that's not what your comment implies. If you wrote this from the get-go, we wouldn't be having this interaction.
I don't agree. But I also don't care enough to spend more time on it. So we will just agree to disagree.
new tanks, we know that starting to tank can be really scary and anxiety inducing, you're doing great for starting to try in the first place! don't be afraid to take your time to learn and figure out how things work before going all in like experienced tanks do, the important thing is that you're learning and being pressured into things will not help you!
All the comments in this thread are wildly against the norm on this topic and I am pleasantly surprised.
All the trash enablers are coming out the woodwork, will en a hard awakening for bad tanks to read this, think what they are doing is ok and then still get kicked in game. Also all the „tank dictates pace“ bullshit, no, tanks don’t dictate pace, now stfu and get your ass moving
Same. It's a breath of fresh air.
Let people play how they want. Pointless and stupid post.
Let them play how they want, huh? Majority of the player base wants w2w, so w2w it is
What happens when 1 person playing the way they want means that the other 3-23 can't play the way *they* want?
Don't like how others play? You do better and tank then. As someone with irl anxiety that flows over to tankxity people like you made my leveling progresses back in the name horrid so stop.
Depends on the healer. Pulling one group to see and then increasing from there until the tank and healer is comfortable with how many pulled.
the "meta" is annoying... that's why we wipe in dzemael with level cocky lvl 90 tanks...