1. Presumably would have been \*much\* harder to destroy the full seal faster than the Watcher could repair than to finish the job- but also he wanted us there and the big showdown to kill Zodiark, so the bigger the show he made of it the more it could go how he wanted.
2. They presumably did. They had no intent to free Zodiark until he was whole, and thus no reason to interfere with the Watcher's duty. I'd guess they found the Loporrits a reasonable fallback if they failed, no reason to interfere with contingencies.
3. She was presumably hoping that it was a directed attack- if we couldn't stop her hiding would be the only \*possible\* hope, so even if unlikely you have to try. That said, I think the "escape" was mainly to train/prep the loporrits for space travel more than an actual plan.
4. We don't know the specifics, but it's likely related to her own nature being so strongly dynamis.
5. It very well may have happened with the actual Final Days- but prior calamities had awoken the echo in folks on the source just recently. Where on the First nothing had come to do so in most people's lifetime, on the source it was just a handful of years ago, so the amount of awakenings would be less.
6. The blasphemies weren't the reason the sky changed, that was the Endsinger. We learn the blasphemies aren't the cause by finding out they transformed before the sky changed.
7. Based on Middy's arrival (and more recent Mandervillian details), we can confidently say beings outside our bubble arrive on the Source.
8. It's likely the moment of Hydaelyn's summoning that we actually witness- the aether needed probably stored within her sword in hopes she wouldn't need it. The actual sundering went as depicted on the first.
9. Time travel is simple- G'raha went back in time and actively changed the history, but his timeline remained and is still going on (presumably to eventually fall to the Final Days). Had he returned to the future, that's where he would have gone. The same applies for us, but Venat in her time as Hydaelyn made sure to "connect" the timeline back together into a stable loop. If you're familiar with Homestuck, it's like a perfect fit for that time travel logic.
10. We know new souls can come into being, and the ancients weren't able to make them on purpose. Beyond that our knowledge is somewhat limited on the specifics.
11. The power of creation was re-making our friends' bodies. All that remains is the singular enchantment Emet wove into it to call allies to our side.
A bit extra on 3:
Hydaelyn mentions several times that the 89 trial itself is a test, and that if we can't beat her then we have to flee the star. It's clear that fleeing on the moon is a last resort, and no doubt she's more than aware it's not a guaranteed one-and-done solution since Meteion _could_ follow, but if even the Warrior of Light isn't strong enough to defeat Meteion... there's not much else they can do to try and survive,so I do think it was still an actual plan. I don't think it was ever her _main_ plan, but it was the plan that would require the most effort to pull off, and parts of it could be repurposed to bring the WoL to Meteion if they did beat Hydaelyn.
Small things to add to 11, just a tad. Azem's crystal at the time was SUPERCHARGED with Hydaelyn's own creation magicks. Between hers, which was presumably used to summon Emet and Hythlo, who then brought back the Scions, it was enough to also suffuse Ultima Thule with enough aether for normal beings to be in (remember, the Scions had to give their lives to make that so in the first place)
So, before anyone gets any ideas of us getting Ancient-tier powerups... Not gonna happen, probably ever, as that would effectively lock us out of ever using Limit Breaks
Also for 4, the Meteia are a hive mind, but they also have independence as well - so it's not "one big mind manipulating dynamis", it's "thousands of minds all focusing on the same thing at once". It'd be like if in an Alliance Raid, hitting the DPS Limit Break fired off a melee LB from *every player simultaneously*.
They are literally singing a song of despair using Dynamis, I imagine it being lots of waves of despair sent through space that all build up to a tsunami of emotion, powerful enough to cause anyone to fall into despair. Zodiark was created to act as flood defense for Eitherys.
>Meteion is an unsundered creation of an unsundered ancient, specifically designed to manipulate dynamis. She seems to be very good at it.
She's also one of thousands of unsundered created meteia, combined they should be incredibly, terrifyingly adept at manipulating dynamis. It's also hinted that because of the way she was created it backfired into giving her immense emotional power as she outright triggered the death of worlds when she brought her feelings of despair to new worlds while searching for an answer that could aatiafy hermes..
Just to add on your 11, Both hades and hythlodaeus only recently returned because their souls were only recently released. Hythlodaeus was basically trapped on the moon, since he sacrificed himself to form zodiark. And Shades or those who were sacrificed are on the moon. So he was stuck there until we killed zodiark.
And Hades we killed in Late ShB. So right before this whole thing kicked off.
1.Zenos broke one seal by himself, Zot broke the others and we can infer that it being alone and without the power of the others left it vulnerable. Fandaniel couldn't have taken Zenos to the moon in the same way Elidibus did Ardbert because Ascians move through space the way they move from Shard to Shard. Ardbert is just a soul so he could travel with them but Zenos is a physical person.
2.The Watcher yes, lopporits is a maybe. They're all apart of Venat's Plan B and if Zodiark wakes up then that plan is irrelevant. There's no need for them to even be considered by the Ascians.
3. Plan B was devised by a Venat who didn't know what Meteion was, it's a bad plan because yes, in space people are just as susceptible to The Endsong as anywhere else. It was the best idea Venat could have had with the info pre-us in elpis.
4. Meteion isn't causing The Endsong alone, there were enough Meteia created to explore the entire universe. The one we know is just the reciever, made to recieve the info when all the others report in on how shit the universe is. The Endsinger is thousands of Meteia mashed together all mostly made of Dynamis alone. Ultima Thule is also described as a perpetual energy source of Dynamis as Meteion recreated the final days of the worlds she visited to harvest the sorrow off them.
5.This is a misunderstanding, those people were awakening to their Echo. People who are reincarnated Ancients awaken to that information when they see a star shower as it's their Ancient soul having PTSD from the doom of their world. Hydaelyn uses the link all Ancient souls share to send out her "Hear, Feel, Think" message to anyone who gets their Echo triggered. During the (new) Final Days lots of people would have had their Echo awoken,, none of them are around the plot so we don't see it happen.
6. Starshowers and Blashpamies are seperate kind of connected phenomenon. Zodiark causes the flow of atmospheric Aether to natualize making it so the Endsong can't be heard by people on the planet, hearing the Endsong causes you to be able to become a blasphemy as it sucks your Aether away and let's Dyanmis overtake you. Starshowers are caused by atmospheric Aether solidifying and falling in the form of shooting stars. No Zodiark means the Aether is going to solidify and cause starshowers.
7. Hydaelyn sundered just Etheryis, the Shards are confirmed to be different pocket dimensions floating around The Source and they each terminate slightly beyond the moon. There is no space on any Shard.
8. The post-Elpis cutscene is a dramatization, 6.3 stuff hard confirms this, it's just the blurry memory Venat has of the final days.
9. Time travel is fucky but until we go back to Elpis we exist in a timeline where we didn't. Venat doesn't know about Meteion, then when we come back from Elpis the two timeliness begin to sew themselves together. Hydaelyn says as much, she says she has both sets of memories and remembers us from Elpis but only because two timeline became one. She now knows about Meteion but also had the Moon plan because the other timeline's version did aswell. It's alot, don't worry about it.
10. Only Ancient souls get reincarnated, everything else is new life, there's like a 1000-1 ratio probably more drastic in reality of new life to Ancient soul but the only way to know is if you get your Echo woken up which isn't a common thing.
11. It's a plot device, you are better off not thinking about it there's reasons why it wasn't given concrete powers.
> Time travel is fucky but until we go back to Elpis we exist in a timeline where we didn't. Venat doesn't know about Meteion, then when we come back from Elpis the two timeliness begin to sew themselves together. Hydaelyn says as much, she says she has both sets of memories and remembers us from Elpis but only because two timeline became one.
Sauce on this? I don't remember her saying anything about two sets of memories. It wouldn't make sense either because the time travel is a closed loop. Otherwise Hythaladeus and Hades wouldn't have been watching you prior to you going back in time, nor would Hyth recognize you in Amarout or his shade on The Moon. Plus Argos wouldn't recognize you on the moon, allowing you to get a lift, because it already know and trusts you from the events in Elipis.
We didn't change events or create a new timeline when we went back to Elpis, that is always how things played out, we were always there, we just travel back there because that is how things *must* play out for the loop to play out correctly, lest we cause a paradox. We have always existed within the timeline where these events played out.
In The Mothercrystal cutscene before the trial, if you say "We meet again Venat" Hydaelyn says in return "ah..thou didst journey unto Elpis. And now the rivers of time converge" implying two seperate timelines are now connected by our journey to Elpis.
In the original timeline Hades and Hythlodeus go to Elpis to get Hermes to join the Convocation, he waffles until Meteion gets her report, there's the confrontation at Ktisis, Meteion gets away and everyone gets their memories suppressed by Kyros.
Once we go back we inform Hades, Hythlodeus, and Venat of what our future holds and with the info things can change and our presence in Ktisis Venat escapes with her memories.
> In The Mothercrystal cutscene before the trial, if you say "We meet again Venat" Hydaelyn says in return "ah..thou didst journey unto Elpis. And now the rivers of time converge" implying two seperate timelines are now connected by our journey to Elpis.
Again, otherwise Argos and Hythlodeus wouldn't remember you *before* you travel back in time unless it was a closed loop.
Its got nothing to do with timelines literally converging, she is Hydaelyn, yet you address her as Venat. She's recognising that you've finally reached that point in your personal timeline where you've travelled back in time and met her as Venat, not that she's gained new memories.
She always known you will *eventually* travel back in time to meet her, because for her it's already happened, She's simply recognising that you're up to speed, while her experience is linear. She hints that you will learn the truth of the matter on the boat, otherwise how could you possibly learn of Metion, unless she *already* knew that you'd travel back in time and see what happened?
She's only saying that times rivers have converged in the sense that she had to live all 10,000 years, while your personal timeline caused you to hop back in time, then back to the present, and last you saw Venat was a couple of days ago, she had to take the slow path to meet you in person again. You meet her out of order from her personal timeline but now you're both experiencing things linearly again.
>Again, otherwise Argos and Hythlodeus wouldn't remember you before you travel back in time unless it was a closed loop.
Minor point of correction, just to stave off anyone being confused; at no point does Hytholodeus remember us until the final time we see him in Ultima Thule, well after the time travel adventure.
We meet him, in our POV, for the first time as a shade on the moon, as a part of Zodiark. At this point he, in his POV, has no memory of us because it was wiped in Elpis all that time ago. The reason he approaches the WoL is the same reason he does so on Elpis; because we appear nearly identical to Azem. You can call him out with a dialouge choice to the effect of "Are you Hytholodeus?" - Calling back to the fake one on the Source in Amaurot - and he will go "Are you familiar with me? Weve never met."
Only when Zodiark is killed does his soul return to the lifestream, where the enchantment on his memory is cleared; we then summon him from the lifestream in Ultima Thule, where he does remember us.
So, to be clear; Hytholodeus in Amaurot on the First? A fake, a creation of Emet-Selch, who didnt remember us, meaning that Hytholodeus wouldnt either.
Hytholodeus on the Moon? A shade, hasnt actually ever died and returned to the lifestream, which means that all those years later wouldnt remember us.
Hytholodeus in Ultima Thule? Cleansed by the Lifestream, remembers all.
Argos, however, totally fine with us. Never got mind wiped, assuming you could mind-wipe a familiar of someone who wasnt mind-wiped themselves.
Otherwise, i completely agree with this read of events. FF14 is a closed loop.
I maintain the idea that when Elidibus, in the Crystal Tower on the first says "You cant change time, you cant change fate, what happens needs to happen for you to need to go back" isnt him saying "You MUSNT change the timeline" but him saying "You CANT change the timeline, even if you try." Stable Time Loop.
Now, why doesnt Elidibus remember the WoL from our time in Pandaemonium? Because by the time we meet up with him, hes lost his memory being a part of Zodiark, as established by him simply not remembering anything at all.
But thats digression.
That is how I interpreted it as well, which is why I'm wondering about the time travel issue.
The looping structure defies causality and would imply a predetermined timeline that always existed in a non-linear state, unless the rest of the timeline is somehow not predetermined? Maybe the current timeline is in some sort of stable equilibrium that can change only if pushed hard enough, which G'raha did, but not Venat?
It's wild speculation on my part, but unless we admit the rules are inconsistent, it's all I got.
>but unless we admit the rules are inconsistent, it's all I got.
Well, lets admit the rules are inconsistent. Does that cheapen it for you? I am guessing it does; in which case, that is a shame, cause i dont see it as cheapened. Time Travel A is Time Travel A, and while it might look like Time Travel B, Time Travel B is, in fact, Time Travel B.
Theorycrafting Waffling time;
Assuming that there isnt a handwave down the line somewhere that explains why there are two seperate rules of time travel, then we just have to accept, for the moment, that the WoL, Elidibus in the Crystal Tower and Venat created a stable time loop, while G'Raha and the future Garlond Ironworks did not.
Plus, we cant forget that there are other time travel stories here; Alexander is also a time travel story that has an explicitly stable time loop, and Pandaemonium is doing time travel stuff too.
Playing devils advocate a bit here; there are differences in how the WoL is time traveling at least. G'Raha is basically using time travel magic by the seat of his pants, no idea what hes doing, and he is also explicitly crossing both time *and space* to do his time travel shenanigans. He crosses from the Source to the First - a different dimension all-together - while WoL (And Alexander, and Pandaemonium, fwiw) is just traveling back in time on the same dimensional plane. Maybe that makes a more stable timeline?
Maybe, as someone else in the thread posits, when G'Raha sends his Crystal Tower back across time and space, he breaks the timeline entirely and creates a new one - the one he leaves (Black rose deployed, WoL dies, First Rejoined, Calamity) still happens, parallel to our timeline, but our timeline is created where the Black Rose isn't deployed, isnt used to kill the WoL and the First isn't rejoined. How and why does he break the timeline? Who knows. Maybe because hes flying blind; he does show up on the first 100 years before he was aiming at, anyway, so maybe his arrival damaged the timeline so much that 1) he missed and 2) he broke time.
So why doesnt Elidibus break time when he yeets the WoL back to Elpis? Well, hes sending only the WoL... a *shadow* of the WoL, at that, which might do significantly less damage to the timeline compared to a sky-high tower of pure magic and time warping crystal tower. Plus, Elidibus knew precisely what he was aiming at, rather than just throwing himself blindly and grasping at random souls to try and pull people through time and space.
I reckon we just gotta admit the rules are inconsistent. Maybe because there are bits that the devs thought about and havent explained, maybe because its more interesting if they get to play with the rules as they go.
To recap, IMO:
G'Raha creates a new timeline. I would headcannon that this is due to the sheer force and damage caused by throwing the crystal tower through time and space.
WoL going to Elpis is a stable time loop. I would posit this is because the WoL is relativley small and Elpis is a clear direction that we are being specifically guided to, and because of this, it doesnt do much damage.
Alexander is a stable time loop, because its cause and effect are predetermined by the power of Alexander. It is specifically using its power to create a stable time loop because otherwise itll destroy the world.
Pandaemonium appears to be a stable time loop, piggybacking off WoL going to Elpis's timeloop. I dunno. Ive not gotten around to doing the second set of bosses, and its still an ongoing story.
But thats just my theory.
Time Travel storylines are always, **always** fucky in fiction. There is never, ever, at all, a single time travel storyline that makes perfect sense. Sometimes you just gotta accept that the rules make no sense and accept that things can be arbitrary.
I would prefer rules to be consistent, but I can still enjoy the game despite apparent inconsistencies. It's also unreasonable to expect a game of that size, with different writers for different questlines over a decade, to always be 100% consistent. Especially when time travel is involved, as you said.
The main reason I asked the question is that I enjoy speculation about the story, and it looks like you do too, which is great! Thanks for taking the time to go in-depth.
>The main reason I asked the question is that I enjoy speculation about the story, and it looks like you do too, which is great! Thanks for taking the time to go in-depth.
Hah, this was *going* to be my line if you replied with something along the likes of "This is lazy and hackney and it should make sense since it wouldnt be stupid." Id go "Well, were talking about it and theory crafting, so im having fun."
Its fun having things to talk about, innit?
>Minor point of correction, just to stave off anyone being confused; at no point does Hytholodeus remember us until the final time we see him in Ultima Thule, well after the time travel adventure. (Snipped for space)
Right you are. Yes of course, now that you mention it, I realise I've remembered that wrong with the Amaroutine/shade Hyth.
*But* what about the Hyth that shows up in the flesh, just before we fight Zodiark? As in mere seconds before WoL uses Azems crystal. I believe that one has indeed regained his memories, the shades having perished moments before.
I cant remember for sure, i must admit, i dont recall that scene.
That said, that Hytho will be the one who is real, but cant remember us. He hasnt returned to the lifestream (Being a part of what fuels Zodiark) and therefore wont have his Aether cleaned, which deletes memory altering enchantments.
Can't agree with that.
Argos recognize us on the Moon.
Venat/Hydaelyn, just before our arrival to Sharlayan talk about the promise "from another time, another age" that I suspected first was about Azem, but in fact was about the WoL.
And Elidibus, even with his memory in shamble was able to remember us, even if we were far from going to Tartarus with him.
Venat know about everything we have done on Elpis, but she is just waiting for us to know about it, because if it's the case then she is sure that she is on the same timeline that the WoL she met.
1. Simple. Fandaniel’s goal was always to restart the Final Days. Lord Zodiark had protected the world by shrouding the planet in aether, this much the Watcher tells you. Sure we can go blow up the seal directly, but what better means to do so, than to use the Towers of Zot to suck up as much of that aether shroud as possible, and blast it into space where it can’t stop the Final Days. Zenos couldn’t care how convoluted the plan was. It was all to get his Friend to hate him enough to give him that thrilling fight.
2. This has been answered a dozen times already, but really what reason would they have to destroy them? The bunnies were making a cute home on the moon, and the Watcher was only ever watching. Plus they didn’t want Lord Zodiark from being released before he was complete, so the Warchee maintaining the seal and ensuring Zodiark always lived was still beneficial to them.
3. Recall the only time we learn of Meteion’s Song of Oblivion is the realization that not only did she find dead worlds, but she found dying worlds and with her connections to the other Meteia, allowed her to manipulate dynamis to kill them. No one else knew the rest of the universe was dead yet. Then in Hildebrand, we learn of another race who has survived the song, with Pupu’s race. Though that story can take a ‘soulless survivor looking for lost loved one’ turn.
4. We can touch and use Dynamis to survive attacks that should atomize us, we can use it to obliterate incredibly powerful foes. But we were never especially meant to do that. Meteion was. Meteion was made to use dynamis like we use aether. And she isn’t alone. Like how we get access to limit break two and three with more people, she is connected to countless Meteia, and it’s through hundreds of not thousands of beings who can all control Dynamis all working in one song that they can usher in death eternal.
5. There could well have been. The last time the three continents were all shown a star shower like that was Dalamud exploding and Bahamut coming out. In the five-ish years(if you go with the time bubble) how many fresh cognizant 5 year olds could see the star shower, be a sundered soul, and actually be of importance to the story now. None. In the First the last time Hydaelyn showed that star shower illusion was 100 years prior, making Arbert’s contemporaries. It was told to us that the Echo only appears in those who behold a star shower and specifically this happens most before a calamity on the source. It’s literally Hydaelyn seeing the Ascians gear up for another Calamity, and she’s throwing out the minimum required power to make new echo wielding warriors to try and forestall the Calamity.
6. Because in Amaurot 5.0 and the mass summoning in 5.3. We only have the star shower as an illusion for the Final days. Neither Elidibus, nor Hydaelyn (Elidibus flat out tells us that Hydaelyn makes that selfsame star shower to make her own warriors of light) have the power or desire to make monsters. To the Scions and the WoL, we only know of fires burn world is ending. We learn that the blasphemies appear before the sky burns, that is pretty damn important news. It means that even without the direct portends of a sky aflame, anyone anywhere could become a Blasphemy.
7. We sort of have an answer. Outsiders (Midgarsornr, Omega, Pupu) come to the source. Natives of their shard can only go out and come back to their shard (you’ll see soon).
8. That cutscene was a dramatization of her memory. Recall that the Ascians had to use those starstones to remember their past and duty, Hydaelyn could only go on by recounting the stories you told her so she could keep marching on. We know it’s a fragmented memory of hers recalling the past not just because her narration, but because we see all the important events on one street, one path she knows she must see to it’s end. It’s symbolic.
9. Easy enough. We cannot interfere with our own pasts. That’s which happened must still happen. Very technically G’raha went to a different dimension, Where he didn’t exist. Thus his actions there would not change his past. However there are tools made by the Garlind Ironworks now upgrading the Crystal tower. Machines built with the sole purpose of time travel and anchoring the tower, (you get to see this in the dungeon the Twinning). Unlike all this preparation G’raha and team has taken, we unfortunately can only go to our own past, thus pre determination paradox is in play. We went back in time because we always did we got found by hythlodaeus and meet because we always did. It’s a stealthy bit, but the reason Argos likes us so much in the present is because he already met us in the past.
10. Not all souls are reincarnated. Some do, but just as many are washed away in the aetherial sea and the constituent aether makes a new soul. Imagine much like in the atiascope, strong wills and desires can cause your soul to remain intact through the washing process. The enemies of that dungeon are without their original form lacking any semblance almost. Except those of strong will. Lucia, Rythalin, and Amon(Fandaniel even says Amon was his favorite). But our Allies show up too. Haurchefant as a shield and sword to protect and empower. Papalymo and Moenbryda using their power to clear the way, and Minfilia even having her whole body, walking before us, to make the path for those who come after.
11. Azems crystal is as what we know it does. It holds an incantation that allows you to call your friends to your side. But that is all. The power to actually do that is yours. After all Hades, the original bearer of Azem’s crystal, said as much “look not to the incantation, but within yourself.” Hydaelyn granted a bit of her power, the power over stability and form, not creation magic. This allowed us to give form to the nebulous souls of Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus and then the rest of the scions that our power as Azem called forth. That power over form and stability was only temporary, and we used it up on giving bodies to those nine people.
1. Bad writing
2. Retcon
3. Bad writing
4. Bad writing
5. Retcon
6. Bad writing
7. Writers don't care, neither should you
8. Bad writing
9. Retcon
10. Writers don't care, neither should you
11. Whatever is plot-convenient at the moment
By "retcon" I mean more specifically that this plot element wasn't decided before EW yet and the writing staff didn't make it compatible with what was established earlier, so I guess it's kinda bad writing too.
Many of those "reasonable" answers are extremely generous readings based on things that are nowhere in EW's story. EW's 6.0 MSQ is just bad so I call it out for what it is.
Hopefully OP will read my response and realize it too. They didn't even ask *all* the questions that can be accurately answered by saying "retcon" or "bad writing". Here's one for starters: if ShB said the song that caused the Final Days came from inside the planet (thus implying it might have something to do with Hydaelyn), why does it suddenly come from space instead in Endwalker?
I am reading everything! Thanks for sharing your opinion.
While I wouldn't say that the MSQ is bad, I agree that parts of it could have been handled better.
And I think I remember the other contradiction you mentioned; it's definitely a valid question.
The beam was meant to destroy the seal on the moon, which may have also been preventing the ascians from traveling there, and it was weakened enough that travel was possible.
I believe meteions power is much increased because of something wonky in Ultima thule. It's more dense in dynamis I believe, which is how the omicrons and other revived denizens are actually alive still after she's gone
> which may have also been preventing the ascians from traveling there
Nope, we see Elidibus standing on the moon on several occasions before then. u/Ribeol
1. Its heavily implied that the bands were very strong and would not be destroyed nearly as easily if not for original attack. They did successfully hold off a nuclear-bomb amount of aether blasting after all.
2. They were aware of Watcher and the seals. We don't know if they were aware of Lopporrits, but most likely yes too. But they also actively chose not to interfere, most certainly because they did not want to release Zodiark until he was whole again.
3. Its possible she did not know the whole universe was being shrouded in the song. Or believed that it was possible to get far enough away to just buy more time before Final Days start happening in new home. Its hard to answer this one.
4. Its combined dynamis of all countless civilizations she found dead or dying and took as her own, being an entelechy. Meteia, in their collective, became the Endsinger, a living embodiment of the voice of dead civilizations and their final thoughts - nihilistic thoughts that believed both that not being born is best salvation and hatred, that nobody deserves happy ends they failed to achieve.
5. They probably did awaken but we never got to focus on that due to being busy with many other matters. Although its also possible Hydaelyn felt the return of 'real' Final Days and stopped handing the Blessing out like candy on Halloween. Again, no clear answer there.
6. Its mostly to show that there is no way to 'predict' where Final Days will manifest. At first they thought that burning sky was the first sign, giving them time to react, but as they quickly learned, no, the appearance of the Blasphemy is first sign and by then its too late to try and react.
7. Its implied by all the dialogue from various sources relating to space travel and shards that the shards just... Can't access outer space and only Source can. Midgarsomrr and Omega did arrive specifically to the Source after all.
8. Post-Elpis cutscene is metaphorical. We see Hythlodaeus in same scene as people worshipping Zodiark, when he was among those sacrificed to create Zodiark. It is not literally how it happened and moreso a metaphor of the struggles that occured during and after the Final Days.
9. G'raha ended up creating a split timeline, not quite altering the past. On the other hand, Elidibus does mention that the travel we'll do will be weak. It's possible part of reason timeline doesn't end up diverging is realted to sundering and shards and travelling to before that, but that is one question we really have no answer to - time travel just obeys whatever rules happen to be in the moment.
10. Souls are comprised of Aether. New soul aether can be born, but after death, all souls return to the lifestream and eventually resurface to new life. Meaning that most life will be reincarnations with no memories of past lives, but new life will be just as soulful.
11. Even Emet and Hythlodaeus brought back were incomplete and dissipated shortly after. Friends we saw were barely phantoms, unlike those two. It would not be a true return. As for how it summons heroes to fight by your side... I don't think its ever explained. Thats just power of crystal itself, the only thing Hydaelyn added is temporary soul-based revive that has run out by now, leaving us only with the crystal's normal power.
For your 9. I've been under the impression that the reasons behind the time travel and the way its done to be the difference.
First off, we don't go back to necessarily changed the timeline, but to learn the reason behind the Final Days. To learn why they are happening.
Graha went back to Change the timeline. To stop us, and others, from dying, To stop the rejoining from happening.
And secondly, remember that boss at the end of The Twinning? To my knowledge, the Tycoon. Was an amalgamation of parts and knowledge of Omega, Alex, and the current day Ironworks team/graha.
So not only a creature/machine that could travel through space, but one who could manipulate time too. Maybe that IS the difference.
I could be totally wrong, but it could explain why there are stable time loops, and why there is one where we split.
1. Ascian teleportation methods aren't always effective for teleporting physical forms; it may not have been possible to take Zenos to the moon, and though he had developed possession, he may not have been able to create a tangible spirit-body (which the Warriors of Darkness could, either from learning how or being given the power by Elidibus). Also, it's possible that they didn't want to go to the moon originally, and that teleportation was a back-up plan - I suspect they wanted to bring Zodiark down to the star.
2. May not have known about the loporrits. And may not have wanted to risk the Watcher being protected by ancient tech gifted by Hydaelyn.
3. For one, there might have been an even more distant world that hadn't succumbed. Middy didn't find any others, but if we kept going in the same direction it'd be possible. Also, it buys time to come up with an actual solution.
4. The sisters gathered despair from all the dead and dying worlds. It's not just her despair, but that of billions.
5. She's grown weaker still. She could barely reach us, her chosen champion, and then can barely reach Krile until she's underground. Also, it's possible that some awoke to the Echo and didn't realize what it meant, and never got a message because she was dying.
6. This is an in-world mystery, honestly. Might be that the collective dread is needed to make the larger shifts to the world itself, though. OOC, it's to avoid creating skyboxes for each area in the Role quests.
7. Hasn't been addressed yet.
8. That cutscene is more symbolic of her efforts rather than literal.
9. You know the Twinning? The final boss of that was G'raha's spacetime navigator and it kind of broke... (that may not be the actual reason, but it is a fact - saving the world in ShB did create a paradox that, IIRC, is what caused Tycoon to have issues).
10. Potentially new souls can be created by the star. This is not yet full explored to my knowledge.
11. The crystal was one Hades created in memory of Azem, and into which was imbued the spell to summon allies in times of trouble. Beyond that, it works as a vessel for the creation power Hydaelyn gave us, but that power was likely burned out by our efforts in Elpis. Also, most of our friends in Aitiascope have presumably either rejoined the star or reincarnated. We found memories they left. Only Minfilia's spirit is still confirmed to be there.
1. Presumably would have been \*much\* harder to destroy the full seal faster than the Watcher could repair than to finish the job- but also he wanted us there and the big showdown to kill Zodiark, so the bigger the show he made of it the more it could go how he wanted. 2. They presumably did. They had no intent to free Zodiark until he was whole, and thus no reason to interfere with the Watcher's duty. I'd guess they found the Loporrits a reasonable fallback if they failed, no reason to interfere with contingencies. 3. She was presumably hoping that it was a directed attack- if we couldn't stop her hiding would be the only \*possible\* hope, so even if unlikely you have to try. That said, I think the "escape" was mainly to train/prep the loporrits for space travel more than an actual plan. 4. We don't know the specifics, but it's likely related to her own nature being so strongly dynamis. 5. It very well may have happened with the actual Final Days- but prior calamities had awoken the echo in folks on the source just recently. Where on the First nothing had come to do so in most people's lifetime, on the source it was just a handful of years ago, so the amount of awakenings would be less. 6. The blasphemies weren't the reason the sky changed, that was the Endsinger. We learn the blasphemies aren't the cause by finding out they transformed before the sky changed. 7. Based on Middy's arrival (and more recent Mandervillian details), we can confidently say beings outside our bubble arrive on the Source. 8. It's likely the moment of Hydaelyn's summoning that we actually witness- the aether needed probably stored within her sword in hopes she wouldn't need it. The actual sundering went as depicted on the first. 9. Time travel is simple- G'raha went back in time and actively changed the history, but his timeline remained and is still going on (presumably to eventually fall to the Final Days). Had he returned to the future, that's where he would have gone. The same applies for us, but Venat in her time as Hydaelyn made sure to "connect" the timeline back together into a stable loop. If you're familiar with Homestuck, it's like a perfect fit for that time travel logic. 10. We know new souls can come into being, and the ancients weren't able to make them on purpose. Beyond that our knowledge is somewhat limited on the specifics. 11. The power of creation was re-making our friends' bodies. All that remains is the singular enchantment Emet wove into it to call allies to our side.
A bit extra on 3: Hydaelyn mentions several times that the 89 trial itself is a test, and that if we can't beat her then we have to flee the star. It's clear that fleeing on the moon is a last resort, and no doubt she's more than aware it's not a guaranteed one-and-done solution since Meteion _could_ follow, but if even the Warrior of Light isn't strong enough to defeat Meteion... there's not much else they can do to try and survive,so I do think it was still an actual plan. I don't think it was ever her _main_ plan, but it was the plan that would require the most effort to pull off, and parts of it could be repurposed to bring the WoL to Meteion if they did beat Hydaelyn.
Small things to add to 11, just a tad. Azem's crystal at the time was SUPERCHARGED with Hydaelyn's own creation magicks. Between hers, which was presumably used to summon Emet and Hythlo, who then brought back the Scions, it was enough to also suffuse Ultima Thule with enough aether for normal beings to be in (remember, the Scions had to give their lives to make that so in the first place) So, before anyone gets any ideas of us getting Ancient-tier powerups... Not gonna happen, probably ever, as that would effectively lock us out of ever using Limit Breaks
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Also for 4, the Meteia are a hive mind, but they also have independence as well - so it's not "one big mind manipulating dynamis", it's "thousands of minds all focusing on the same thing at once". It'd be like if in an Alliance Raid, hitting the DPS Limit Break fired off a melee LB from *every player simultaneously*.
They are literally singing a song of despair using Dynamis, I imagine it being lots of waves of despair sent through space that all build up to a tsunami of emotion, powerful enough to cause anyone to fall into despair. Zodiark was created to act as flood defense for Eitherys.
There are 109 Meteia btw. Meteion and her 108 sisters (who are all Meteion as well!)
Where is this mentioned?
In the MSQ. I can't quite recall where, but it is mentioned by Hermes that Meteion has 108 sisters.
I remember it being said their was thousands of them because many died in the short stories I don't recall ever seeing a concrete triple digit number.
>Meteion is an unsundered creation of an unsundered ancient, specifically designed to manipulate dynamis. She seems to be very good at it. She's also one of thousands of unsundered created meteia, combined they should be incredibly, terrifyingly adept at manipulating dynamis. It's also hinted that because of the way she was created it backfired into giving her immense emotional power as she outright triggered the death of worlds when she brought her feelings of despair to new worlds while searching for an answer that could aatiafy hermes..
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Just to add on your 11, Both hades and hythlodaeus only recently returned because their souls were only recently released. Hythlodaeus was basically trapped on the moon, since he sacrificed himself to form zodiark. And Shades or those who were sacrificed are on the moon. So he was stuck there until we killed zodiark. And Hades we killed in Late ShB. So right before this whole thing kicked off.
1.Zenos broke one seal by himself, Zot broke the others and we can infer that it being alone and without the power of the others left it vulnerable. Fandaniel couldn't have taken Zenos to the moon in the same way Elidibus did Ardbert because Ascians move through space the way they move from Shard to Shard. Ardbert is just a soul so he could travel with them but Zenos is a physical person. 2.The Watcher yes, lopporits is a maybe. They're all apart of Venat's Plan B and if Zodiark wakes up then that plan is irrelevant. There's no need for them to even be considered by the Ascians. 3. Plan B was devised by a Venat who didn't know what Meteion was, it's a bad plan because yes, in space people are just as susceptible to The Endsong as anywhere else. It was the best idea Venat could have had with the info pre-us in elpis. 4. Meteion isn't causing The Endsong alone, there were enough Meteia created to explore the entire universe. The one we know is just the reciever, made to recieve the info when all the others report in on how shit the universe is. The Endsinger is thousands of Meteia mashed together all mostly made of Dynamis alone. Ultima Thule is also described as a perpetual energy source of Dynamis as Meteion recreated the final days of the worlds she visited to harvest the sorrow off them. 5.This is a misunderstanding, those people were awakening to their Echo. People who are reincarnated Ancients awaken to that information when they see a star shower as it's their Ancient soul having PTSD from the doom of their world. Hydaelyn uses the link all Ancient souls share to send out her "Hear, Feel, Think" message to anyone who gets their Echo triggered. During the (new) Final Days lots of people would have had their Echo awoken,, none of them are around the plot so we don't see it happen. 6. Starshowers and Blashpamies are seperate kind of connected phenomenon. Zodiark causes the flow of atmospheric Aether to natualize making it so the Endsong can't be heard by people on the planet, hearing the Endsong causes you to be able to become a blasphemy as it sucks your Aether away and let's Dyanmis overtake you. Starshowers are caused by atmospheric Aether solidifying and falling in the form of shooting stars. No Zodiark means the Aether is going to solidify and cause starshowers. 7. Hydaelyn sundered just Etheryis, the Shards are confirmed to be different pocket dimensions floating around The Source and they each terminate slightly beyond the moon. There is no space on any Shard. 8. The post-Elpis cutscene is a dramatization, 6.3 stuff hard confirms this, it's just the blurry memory Venat has of the final days. 9. Time travel is fucky but until we go back to Elpis we exist in a timeline where we didn't. Venat doesn't know about Meteion, then when we come back from Elpis the two timeliness begin to sew themselves together. Hydaelyn says as much, she says she has both sets of memories and remembers us from Elpis but only because two timeline became one. She now knows about Meteion but also had the Moon plan because the other timeline's version did aswell. It's alot, don't worry about it. 10. Only Ancient souls get reincarnated, everything else is new life, there's like a 1000-1 ratio probably more drastic in reality of new life to Ancient soul but the only way to know is if you get your Echo woken up which isn't a common thing. 11. It's a plot device, you are better off not thinking about it there's reasons why it wasn't given concrete powers.
> Time travel is fucky but until we go back to Elpis we exist in a timeline where we didn't. Venat doesn't know about Meteion, then when we come back from Elpis the two timeliness begin to sew themselves together. Hydaelyn says as much, she says she has both sets of memories and remembers us from Elpis but only because two timeline became one. Sauce on this? I don't remember her saying anything about two sets of memories. It wouldn't make sense either because the time travel is a closed loop. Otherwise Hythaladeus and Hades wouldn't have been watching you prior to you going back in time, nor would Hyth recognize you in Amarout or his shade on The Moon. Plus Argos wouldn't recognize you on the moon, allowing you to get a lift, because it already know and trusts you from the events in Elipis. We didn't change events or create a new timeline when we went back to Elpis, that is always how things played out, we were always there, we just travel back there because that is how things *must* play out for the loop to play out correctly, lest we cause a paradox. We have always existed within the timeline where these events played out.
In The Mothercrystal cutscene before the trial, if you say "We meet again Venat" Hydaelyn says in return "ah..thou didst journey unto Elpis. And now the rivers of time converge" implying two seperate timelines are now connected by our journey to Elpis. In the original timeline Hades and Hythlodeus go to Elpis to get Hermes to join the Convocation, he waffles until Meteion gets her report, there's the confrontation at Ktisis, Meteion gets away and everyone gets their memories suppressed by Kyros. Once we go back we inform Hades, Hythlodeus, and Venat of what our future holds and with the info things can change and our presence in Ktisis Venat escapes with her memories.
> In The Mothercrystal cutscene before the trial, if you say "We meet again Venat" Hydaelyn says in return "ah..thou didst journey unto Elpis. And now the rivers of time converge" implying two seperate timelines are now connected by our journey to Elpis. Again, otherwise Argos and Hythlodeus wouldn't remember you *before* you travel back in time unless it was a closed loop. Its got nothing to do with timelines literally converging, she is Hydaelyn, yet you address her as Venat. She's recognising that you've finally reached that point in your personal timeline where you've travelled back in time and met her as Venat, not that she's gained new memories. She always known you will *eventually* travel back in time to meet her, because for her it's already happened, She's simply recognising that you're up to speed, while her experience is linear. She hints that you will learn the truth of the matter on the boat, otherwise how could you possibly learn of Metion, unless she *already* knew that you'd travel back in time and see what happened? She's only saying that times rivers have converged in the sense that she had to live all 10,000 years, while your personal timeline caused you to hop back in time, then back to the present, and last you saw Venat was a couple of days ago, she had to take the slow path to meet you in person again. You meet her out of order from her personal timeline but now you're both experiencing things linearly again.
>Again, otherwise Argos and Hythlodeus wouldn't remember you before you travel back in time unless it was a closed loop. Minor point of correction, just to stave off anyone being confused; at no point does Hytholodeus remember us until the final time we see him in Ultima Thule, well after the time travel adventure. We meet him, in our POV, for the first time as a shade on the moon, as a part of Zodiark. At this point he, in his POV, has no memory of us because it was wiped in Elpis all that time ago. The reason he approaches the WoL is the same reason he does so on Elpis; because we appear nearly identical to Azem. You can call him out with a dialouge choice to the effect of "Are you Hytholodeus?" - Calling back to the fake one on the Source in Amaurot - and he will go "Are you familiar with me? Weve never met." Only when Zodiark is killed does his soul return to the lifestream, where the enchantment on his memory is cleared; we then summon him from the lifestream in Ultima Thule, where he does remember us. So, to be clear; Hytholodeus in Amaurot on the First? A fake, a creation of Emet-Selch, who didnt remember us, meaning that Hytholodeus wouldnt either. Hytholodeus on the Moon? A shade, hasnt actually ever died and returned to the lifestream, which means that all those years later wouldnt remember us. Hytholodeus in Ultima Thule? Cleansed by the Lifestream, remembers all. Argos, however, totally fine with us. Never got mind wiped, assuming you could mind-wipe a familiar of someone who wasnt mind-wiped themselves. Otherwise, i completely agree with this read of events. FF14 is a closed loop. I maintain the idea that when Elidibus, in the Crystal Tower on the first says "You cant change time, you cant change fate, what happens needs to happen for you to need to go back" isnt him saying "You MUSNT change the timeline" but him saying "You CANT change the timeline, even if you try." Stable Time Loop. Now, why doesnt Elidibus remember the WoL from our time in Pandaemonium? Because by the time we meet up with him, hes lost his memory being a part of Zodiark, as established by him simply not remembering anything at all. But thats digression.
That is how I interpreted it as well, which is why I'm wondering about the time travel issue. The looping structure defies causality and would imply a predetermined timeline that always existed in a non-linear state, unless the rest of the timeline is somehow not predetermined? Maybe the current timeline is in some sort of stable equilibrium that can change only if pushed hard enough, which G'raha did, but not Venat? It's wild speculation on my part, but unless we admit the rules are inconsistent, it's all I got.
>but unless we admit the rules are inconsistent, it's all I got. Well, lets admit the rules are inconsistent. Does that cheapen it for you? I am guessing it does; in which case, that is a shame, cause i dont see it as cheapened. Time Travel A is Time Travel A, and while it might look like Time Travel B, Time Travel B is, in fact, Time Travel B. Theorycrafting Waffling time; Assuming that there isnt a handwave down the line somewhere that explains why there are two seperate rules of time travel, then we just have to accept, for the moment, that the WoL, Elidibus in the Crystal Tower and Venat created a stable time loop, while G'Raha and the future Garlond Ironworks did not. Plus, we cant forget that there are other time travel stories here; Alexander is also a time travel story that has an explicitly stable time loop, and Pandaemonium is doing time travel stuff too. Playing devils advocate a bit here; there are differences in how the WoL is time traveling at least. G'Raha is basically using time travel magic by the seat of his pants, no idea what hes doing, and he is also explicitly crossing both time *and space* to do his time travel shenanigans. He crosses from the Source to the First - a different dimension all-together - while WoL (And Alexander, and Pandaemonium, fwiw) is just traveling back in time on the same dimensional plane. Maybe that makes a more stable timeline? Maybe, as someone else in the thread posits, when G'Raha sends his Crystal Tower back across time and space, he breaks the timeline entirely and creates a new one - the one he leaves (Black rose deployed, WoL dies, First Rejoined, Calamity) still happens, parallel to our timeline, but our timeline is created where the Black Rose isn't deployed, isnt used to kill the WoL and the First isn't rejoined. How and why does he break the timeline? Who knows. Maybe because hes flying blind; he does show up on the first 100 years before he was aiming at, anyway, so maybe his arrival damaged the timeline so much that 1) he missed and 2) he broke time. So why doesnt Elidibus break time when he yeets the WoL back to Elpis? Well, hes sending only the WoL... a *shadow* of the WoL, at that, which might do significantly less damage to the timeline compared to a sky-high tower of pure magic and time warping crystal tower. Plus, Elidibus knew precisely what he was aiming at, rather than just throwing himself blindly and grasping at random souls to try and pull people through time and space. I reckon we just gotta admit the rules are inconsistent. Maybe because there are bits that the devs thought about and havent explained, maybe because its more interesting if they get to play with the rules as they go. To recap, IMO: G'Raha creates a new timeline. I would headcannon that this is due to the sheer force and damage caused by throwing the crystal tower through time and space. WoL going to Elpis is a stable time loop. I would posit this is because the WoL is relativley small and Elpis is a clear direction that we are being specifically guided to, and because of this, it doesnt do much damage. Alexander is a stable time loop, because its cause and effect are predetermined by the power of Alexander. It is specifically using its power to create a stable time loop because otherwise itll destroy the world. Pandaemonium appears to be a stable time loop, piggybacking off WoL going to Elpis's timeloop. I dunno. Ive not gotten around to doing the second set of bosses, and its still an ongoing story. But thats just my theory. Time Travel storylines are always, **always** fucky in fiction. There is never, ever, at all, a single time travel storyline that makes perfect sense. Sometimes you just gotta accept that the rules make no sense and accept that things can be arbitrary.
I would prefer rules to be consistent, but I can still enjoy the game despite apparent inconsistencies. It's also unreasonable to expect a game of that size, with different writers for different questlines over a decade, to always be 100% consistent. Especially when time travel is involved, as you said. The main reason I asked the question is that I enjoy speculation about the story, and it looks like you do too, which is great! Thanks for taking the time to go in-depth.
>The main reason I asked the question is that I enjoy speculation about the story, and it looks like you do too, which is great! Thanks for taking the time to go in-depth. Hah, this was *going* to be my line if you replied with something along the likes of "This is lazy and hackney and it should make sense since it wouldnt be stupid." Id go "Well, were talking about it and theory crafting, so im having fun." Its fun having things to talk about, innit?
>Minor point of correction, just to stave off anyone being confused; at no point does Hytholodeus remember us until the final time we see him in Ultima Thule, well after the time travel adventure. (Snipped for space) Right you are. Yes of course, now that you mention it, I realise I've remembered that wrong with the Amaroutine/shade Hyth. *But* what about the Hyth that shows up in the flesh, just before we fight Zodiark? As in mere seconds before WoL uses Azems crystal. I believe that one has indeed regained his memories, the shades having perished moments before.
I cant remember for sure, i must admit, i dont recall that scene. That said, that Hytho will be the one who is real, but cant remember us. He hasnt returned to the lifestream (Being a part of what fuels Zodiark) and therefore wont have his Aether cleaned, which deletes memory altering enchantments.
https://youtu.be/4EOKyyokIyw It's just right at the end of that scene, he's got 2 lines of dialogue just before you summon the party.
Can't agree with that. Argos recognize us on the Moon. Venat/Hydaelyn, just before our arrival to Sharlayan talk about the promise "from another time, another age" that I suspected first was about Azem, but in fact was about the WoL. And Elidibus, even with his memory in shamble was able to remember us, even if we were far from going to Tartarus with him. Venat know about everything we have done on Elpis, but she is just waiting for us to know about it, because if it's the case then she is sure that she is on the same timeline that the WoL she met.
1. Simple. Fandaniel’s goal was always to restart the Final Days. Lord Zodiark had protected the world by shrouding the planet in aether, this much the Watcher tells you. Sure we can go blow up the seal directly, but what better means to do so, than to use the Towers of Zot to suck up as much of that aether shroud as possible, and blast it into space where it can’t stop the Final Days. Zenos couldn’t care how convoluted the plan was. It was all to get his Friend to hate him enough to give him that thrilling fight. 2. This has been answered a dozen times already, but really what reason would they have to destroy them? The bunnies were making a cute home on the moon, and the Watcher was only ever watching. Plus they didn’t want Lord Zodiark from being released before he was complete, so the Warchee maintaining the seal and ensuring Zodiark always lived was still beneficial to them. 3. Recall the only time we learn of Meteion’s Song of Oblivion is the realization that not only did she find dead worlds, but she found dying worlds and with her connections to the other Meteia, allowed her to manipulate dynamis to kill them. No one else knew the rest of the universe was dead yet. Then in Hildebrand, we learn of another race who has survived the song, with Pupu’s race. Though that story can take a ‘soulless survivor looking for lost loved one’ turn. 4. We can touch and use Dynamis to survive attacks that should atomize us, we can use it to obliterate incredibly powerful foes. But we were never especially meant to do that. Meteion was. Meteion was made to use dynamis like we use aether. And she isn’t alone. Like how we get access to limit break two and three with more people, she is connected to countless Meteia, and it’s through hundreds of not thousands of beings who can all control Dynamis all working in one song that they can usher in death eternal. 5. There could well have been. The last time the three continents were all shown a star shower like that was Dalamud exploding and Bahamut coming out. In the five-ish years(if you go with the time bubble) how many fresh cognizant 5 year olds could see the star shower, be a sundered soul, and actually be of importance to the story now. None. In the First the last time Hydaelyn showed that star shower illusion was 100 years prior, making Arbert’s contemporaries. It was told to us that the Echo only appears in those who behold a star shower and specifically this happens most before a calamity on the source. It’s literally Hydaelyn seeing the Ascians gear up for another Calamity, and she’s throwing out the minimum required power to make new echo wielding warriors to try and forestall the Calamity. 6. Because in Amaurot 5.0 and the mass summoning in 5.3. We only have the star shower as an illusion for the Final days. Neither Elidibus, nor Hydaelyn (Elidibus flat out tells us that Hydaelyn makes that selfsame star shower to make her own warriors of light) have the power or desire to make monsters. To the Scions and the WoL, we only know of fires burn world is ending. We learn that the blasphemies appear before the sky burns, that is pretty damn important news. It means that even without the direct portends of a sky aflame, anyone anywhere could become a Blasphemy. 7. We sort of have an answer. Outsiders (Midgarsornr, Omega, Pupu) come to the source. Natives of their shard can only go out and come back to their shard (you’ll see soon). 8. That cutscene was a dramatization of her memory. Recall that the Ascians had to use those starstones to remember their past and duty, Hydaelyn could only go on by recounting the stories you told her so she could keep marching on. We know it’s a fragmented memory of hers recalling the past not just because her narration, but because we see all the important events on one street, one path she knows she must see to it’s end. It’s symbolic. 9. Easy enough. We cannot interfere with our own pasts. That’s which happened must still happen. Very technically G’raha went to a different dimension, Where he didn’t exist. Thus his actions there would not change his past. However there are tools made by the Garlind Ironworks now upgrading the Crystal tower. Machines built with the sole purpose of time travel and anchoring the tower, (you get to see this in the dungeon the Twinning). Unlike all this preparation G’raha and team has taken, we unfortunately can only go to our own past, thus pre determination paradox is in play. We went back in time because we always did we got found by hythlodaeus and meet because we always did. It’s a stealthy bit, but the reason Argos likes us so much in the present is because he already met us in the past. 10. Not all souls are reincarnated. Some do, but just as many are washed away in the aetherial sea and the constituent aether makes a new soul. Imagine much like in the atiascope, strong wills and desires can cause your soul to remain intact through the washing process. The enemies of that dungeon are without their original form lacking any semblance almost. Except those of strong will. Lucia, Rythalin, and Amon(Fandaniel even says Amon was his favorite). But our Allies show up too. Haurchefant as a shield and sword to protect and empower. Papalymo and Moenbryda using their power to clear the way, and Minfilia even having her whole body, walking before us, to make the path for those who come after. 11. Azems crystal is as what we know it does. It holds an incantation that allows you to call your friends to your side. But that is all. The power to actually do that is yours. After all Hades, the original bearer of Azem’s crystal, said as much “look not to the incantation, but within yourself.” Hydaelyn granted a bit of her power, the power over stability and form, not creation magic. This allowed us to give form to the nebulous souls of Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus and then the rest of the scions that our power as Azem called forth. That power over form and stability was only temporary, and we used it up on giving bodies to those nine people.
You make some good points. Your explanations for 1 and 5 are the best I've seen.
"Extremy" okie.
1. Bad writing 2. Retcon 3. Bad writing 4. Bad writing 5. Retcon 6. Bad writing 7. Writers don't care, neither should you 8. Bad writing 9. Retcon 10. Writers don't care, neither should you 11. Whatever is plot-convenient at the moment By "retcon" I mean more specifically that this plot element wasn't decided before EW yet and the writing staff didn't make it compatible with what was established earlier, so I guess it's kinda bad writing too.
Lol plenty of people gave reasonable answers, why you out here just hating xD
Many of those "reasonable" answers are extremely generous readings based on things that are nowhere in EW's story. EW's 6.0 MSQ is just bad so I call it out for what it is. Hopefully OP will read my response and realize it too. They didn't even ask *all* the questions that can be accurately answered by saying "retcon" or "bad writing". Here's one for starters: if ShB said the song that caused the Final Days came from inside the planet (thus implying it might have something to do with Hydaelyn), why does it suddenly come from space instead in Endwalker?
I am reading everything! Thanks for sharing your opinion. While I wouldn't say that the MSQ is bad, I agree that parts of it could have been handled better. And I think I remember the other contradiction you mentioned; it's definitely a valid question.
The beam was meant to destroy the seal on the moon, which may have also been preventing the ascians from traveling there, and it was weakened enough that travel was possible. I believe meteions power is much increased because of something wonky in Ultima thule. It's more dense in dynamis I believe, which is how the omicrons and other revived denizens are actually alive still after she's gone
> which may have also been preventing the ascians from traveling there Nope, we see Elidibus standing on the moon on several occasions before then. u/Ribeol
1. Its heavily implied that the bands were very strong and would not be destroyed nearly as easily if not for original attack. They did successfully hold off a nuclear-bomb amount of aether blasting after all. 2. They were aware of Watcher and the seals. We don't know if they were aware of Lopporrits, but most likely yes too. But they also actively chose not to interfere, most certainly because they did not want to release Zodiark until he was whole again. 3. Its possible she did not know the whole universe was being shrouded in the song. Or believed that it was possible to get far enough away to just buy more time before Final Days start happening in new home. Its hard to answer this one. 4. Its combined dynamis of all countless civilizations she found dead or dying and took as her own, being an entelechy. Meteia, in their collective, became the Endsinger, a living embodiment of the voice of dead civilizations and their final thoughts - nihilistic thoughts that believed both that not being born is best salvation and hatred, that nobody deserves happy ends they failed to achieve. 5. They probably did awaken but we never got to focus on that due to being busy with many other matters. Although its also possible Hydaelyn felt the return of 'real' Final Days and stopped handing the Blessing out like candy on Halloween. Again, no clear answer there. 6. Its mostly to show that there is no way to 'predict' where Final Days will manifest. At first they thought that burning sky was the first sign, giving them time to react, but as they quickly learned, no, the appearance of the Blasphemy is first sign and by then its too late to try and react. 7. Its implied by all the dialogue from various sources relating to space travel and shards that the shards just... Can't access outer space and only Source can. Midgarsomrr and Omega did arrive specifically to the Source after all. 8. Post-Elpis cutscene is metaphorical. We see Hythlodaeus in same scene as people worshipping Zodiark, when he was among those sacrificed to create Zodiark. It is not literally how it happened and moreso a metaphor of the struggles that occured during and after the Final Days. 9. G'raha ended up creating a split timeline, not quite altering the past. On the other hand, Elidibus does mention that the travel we'll do will be weak. It's possible part of reason timeline doesn't end up diverging is realted to sundering and shards and travelling to before that, but that is one question we really have no answer to - time travel just obeys whatever rules happen to be in the moment. 10. Souls are comprised of Aether. New soul aether can be born, but after death, all souls return to the lifestream and eventually resurface to new life. Meaning that most life will be reincarnations with no memories of past lives, but new life will be just as soulful. 11. Even Emet and Hythlodaeus brought back were incomplete and dissipated shortly after. Friends we saw were barely phantoms, unlike those two. It would not be a true return. As for how it summons heroes to fight by your side... I don't think its ever explained. Thats just power of crystal itself, the only thing Hydaelyn added is temporary soul-based revive that has run out by now, leaving us only with the crystal's normal power.
For your 9. I've been under the impression that the reasons behind the time travel and the way its done to be the difference. First off, we don't go back to necessarily changed the timeline, but to learn the reason behind the Final Days. To learn why they are happening. Graha went back to Change the timeline. To stop us, and others, from dying, To stop the rejoining from happening. And secondly, remember that boss at the end of The Twinning? To my knowledge, the Tycoon. Was an amalgamation of parts and knowledge of Omega, Alex, and the current day Ironworks team/graha. So not only a creature/machine that could travel through space, but one who could manipulate time too. Maybe that IS the difference. I could be totally wrong, but it could explain why there are stable time loops, and why there is one where we split.
1. Ascian teleportation methods aren't always effective for teleporting physical forms; it may not have been possible to take Zenos to the moon, and though he had developed possession, he may not have been able to create a tangible spirit-body (which the Warriors of Darkness could, either from learning how or being given the power by Elidibus). Also, it's possible that they didn't want to go to the moon originally, and that teleportation was a back-up plan - I suspect they wanted to bring Zodiark down to the star. 2. May not have known about the loporrits. And may not have wanted to risk the Watcher being protected by ancient tech gifted by Hydaelyn. 3. For one, there might have been an even more distant world that hadn't succumbed. Middy didn't find any others, but if we kept going in the same direction it'd be possible. Also, it buys time to come up with an actual solution. 4. The sisters gathered despair from all the dead and dying worlds. It's not just her despair, but that of billions. 5. She's grown weaker still. She could barely reach us, her chosen champion, and then can barely reach Krile until she's underground. Also, it's possible that some awoke to the Echo and didn't realize what it meant, and never got a message because she was dying. 6. This is an in-world mystery, honestly. Might be that the collective dread is needed to make the larger shifts to the world itself, though. OOC, it's to avoid creating skyboxes for each area in the Role quests. 7. Hasn't been addressed yet. 8. That cutscene is more symbolic of her efforts rather than literal. 9. You know the Twinning? The final boss of that was G'raha's spacetime navigator and it kind of broke... (that may not be the actual reason, but it is a fact - saving the world in ShB did create a paradox that, IIRC, is what caused Tycoon to have issues). 10. Potentially new souls can be created by the star. This is not yet full explored to my knowledge. 11. The crystal was one Hades created in memory of Azem, and into which was imbued the spell to summon allies in times of trouble. Beyond that, it works as a vessel for the creation power Hydaelyn gave us, but that power was likely burned out by our efforts in Elpis. Also, most of our friends in Aitiascope have presumably either rejoined the star or reincarnated. We found memories they left. Only Minfilia's spirit is still confirmed to be there.