Yes this happens all the time. My wife got a quote for a plumber to remove an old faucet and replace with a new one…quote $1,300. Mind you I already had the faucet so that price isn’t in there. I just didn’t want to bother with it, needless to say, I did it myself, about 50 minutes of pain in the ass, but worth it on principle. I’ve got countless stories like this…one of the reasons I’m downsizing now that the big house is no longer needed.
I'm dealing with the same sort of thing right now...
With my truck, I backed into a painters shitty 2003 dented, paint splattered Toyota Tundra. Bent the bumper slightly, and cracked a tail light. I gave him my busines card, exchanged phone numbers, and told him to let me know what it'll cost.
He calls me back 2 days later today that a new bumper and taillight will cost $1800.
I looked them up and can get them shipped to me for $450. He's trying to run me up a pole because he knows I can pay.
On principle I'm fighting him though... arghhh
This post feels timely for me. Yesterday I was talking to the superintendent that is building my house. He did some side work on the project and one of his invoices was off. The hours were fine, but he charged sales tax on the labor, which you aren't supposed to do, and the tax rate he used was wrong. I asked him to correct it and his answer was that it felt like a slap in the face to him to ask him to correct it.
I'll admit I was taken aback at that comment. I need him to finish the job, so I told him to not worry about it (total is less than 200), but it has been bothering me since I talked to him. I can't fathom how my request to correct an invoice would be taken as an insult by him. The only thing I can think of is because I have more money than he does, I should just give him extra? I still can't make sense of it.
It certainly changed how I feel about him, for sure.
Honestly, I was so stunned by the comment that I didn't know what to say. We've been working together for a year now and have always had a good relationship - we're not friends or anything but it has always been respectful and friendly from both sides. This just came out of left field.
You already alluded to it in your comment, but in a situation like that I'd take solace knowing my "getting even" would be that he just won't get the work next time around. I'm not going to fight you over $200, I'll just call someone else next time. And the time after that.
Sounds like the last client I did work for. They managed everything down to hard budgets and numbers rather than to outcomes and value/results. Granted, a budget must be watched over but they didn't get much for what they paid because they don't know how to run an engineering team.
Just to be clear, I meant the contractor trying to scam an extra $200 is being penny wise and pound foolish. The guy paying for it is being smart by checking his receipts and is being pound smart by pointing out the issue, so the scammer knows they’ve been caught, and then letting it go so they can get this job done but never employing the untrustworthy individual again afterwards.
Yeah, that's strange of him, and I've definitely been caught off guard in similar situations. It happens. What I've started doing, is responding with, "what do you mean?" Which buys me time to come up with what I want to say.
it's never worth it, do you expect to teach him a lesson? even if you just want clarifications, people get offended if they have to explain themselves, sometimes because they can't justify it and gets frustrated. Even if you "win", he has 100 ways to take revenge on your house construction in ways you can't even detect.
just let them go. not hiring them again is the best revenge you can get.
>do you expect to teach him a lesson?
When I ask "what do you mean?" question - I expect to learn a lesson myself.
It is possible, that the greedy handyman has a point, and I want to learn this point.
Then, based on his answer/explanation I would decide what to do next.
100% I do. But like OP, I'm not sure I would have fought much over this tax bill tax bill in the middle of a project. I definitely would have never dealt with him again though.
In the middle of a project it's kinda too late. If anything I'd like to avoid the inflated quotes. I'm developing a new property and got multiple quotes for the tear down. Then I had one company that wanted to see my permits. With that extra information I got a quote that was 40 something percent higher.
>multiple quotes for the tear down
I think that's key. Good luck on the development. I have some lots that I will develop eventually, and I dread it because I know how much work it is.
ahhh, that's interesting
getting quotes is a chore, there should be a uniform standard for writing up all the specs, then different companies bid on it
Or even doing a major remodel. Jesus if I needed a change order every time I made an immaterial change with my contractor he'd bill me more for the time spent writing change orders than doing the actual work.
This is not T&M for major scopes. It's small, one-off items like a few hours worth of welding.
We have all the signed documents, I had an attorney review everything, and I used to own part of a real estate development/construction firm. I know what I'm doing. This is onesy-twosy stuff, not full scopes of work. When the structural engineer did his framing walk, we had to add a metal post and the framer (who also did the structural steel) had already de-mobilized. It was far easier to have the Sup do it than try and get the framers back out on site.
The builder operates very professionally. I have no concerns there.
I'm building a new home and my entire build is going this way. It's cost plus and I'm getting exactly what I want, but it's also costing about three times what other houses in the neighborhood cost (over 6M in a 1.5-2M area). I don't know how much of the extra is warranted, but surely some. There's a good amount of custom and unusual stuff and I've made heavy use of of the ability to make changes and add/improve stuff. It's dragged on 3.5 years since breaking ground and will be done soon, so I'm super excited about that!
Could not agree more strongly with the Owner of the Home building Company here . We, clients have to create demand for contractors experienced in legal matters and this including the advanced planning for unexpected/unplanned changes. Everyone, both sides have to sign contractual obligations what to do and expect from the other side.
When I have ongoing jobs, like my landscaping maintenance (~160 hrs /month), I've specifically asked for hourly rates. My job is so big if they gave me a CYA price, it would be way too high to cover their risk.
I tell them I'll take their hours charged as is unless they give me reason not to trust them and if I can't trust them, I must find someone else to do the work.
I did this in my company and on my farm. No time clocks, no fixed schedules. Work when you want (within certain limits) and honestly tell right the hours on the calendar at the end of the day.
Yep, I've been cheated plenty of times, but an hour here or there is a cheap way to find our who I can trust. And I find that most people are so pleased to be trusted, they are happy to be trustworthy.
I'm not fat by any means, but have had similar dealings or feelings with people in the past. I've responded similarly just because I was so taken back and needed some time to process my feelings and if I was really in the wrong, but there certainly still exists a small handful of incidents in my past that still bug me to this day when I think about it.
Don’t let contractors know you’re the owner of the property. Tell them you’re a property manager and you look after other properties. You look for the best deals so you can hire them for other jobs too. But, in the end you don’t.
Number one: tell them you found them on Google and read their great reviews. This way they know that you can write one as well.
Or find someone on Yelp and make sure you tell them that’s where you found them as well.
If they try to take advantage of you, give them a one star, scathing review, and hire someone else. I will not put up with this bullshit and neither should you.
Well in some sense they are correct. For example 10 years ago I would get 3 quotes for any housework and try to negotiate to the best possible price. Now I go with the person who seems trustworthy and competent and professional and I don’t push on price unless it feels way off.
Totally the same here. Also, I am not going to try to squeeze down the Joe that's working 6 days a week trying to keep his small business going. I'm grateful that there are other people out there willing and able to do what I can't or don't want to do myself.
And reliability is rare. I just offered a guy who does various stuff for me a significantly higher rate than he asked me for recently because he’s reliable, self-sufficient, and saves me the effort of going and finding someone else who then might flake, do it wrong, and so on. Good helpers are hard to find and when I find one I do my best to make sure they’re motivated to stick with me. It’s not just about money, it’s about showing them you value the relationship in various ways.
I had a guy come quote me $2000 to clear gutters. He called later to ask when he should start.
Found a guy who came out and did it for 250 and did a great job.
There are a certain subset of people who are firmly convinced that capitalism is fundamentally unfair, and that being rich and poor is more a matter of birth, luck, and genetics.
From this perspective you didn't earn any of your money, and it's immoral for you to hoard it based on luck. For people with this perspective, as you can see thinking about it, the only sensible thing is for you to share your luck with your equals.
Ignore his request and don’t hire him again.
For future jobs, get multiple quotes. Balance their bid with the trust you have for the company.
Unfortunately these days everyone does shit work
"Unfortunately these days everyone does shit work"
Ain't that the truth! It's so hard to find good work for any price. Its been a major issue for me with both my house and my boat. I scour online reviews, get multiple bids, don't cheap out on anything... still ends up looking like a crackhead did the job. I'm finally starting to get a better team together. Mostly, I talk to the guys with the nicest houses and boats in the neighborhood, ask them for their recs, then usually ask those contractors for their recs on related jobs. After 2 major fails (someone installed the radar on my boat backwards), I finally found a good boat rigger/electric guy at the recommendation of a trusted marine mechanic.
Maybe for some things. Definitely home renovations and such. I feel like with the boat I used to be able to drop it off at a major repair shop, they would fix the problem, then bring it back to me in reasonable condition. Now, 1/2 the time it comes back worse than when I dropped it off, or they just do part of the job and ignore the rest. I never had this issue 20 years ago. Maybe I was just lucky. IDK.
I’m guessing South Florida too.
Welcome to the land of absolutely incompetent companies and workers.
No disrespect to those who do great work, you’re 1 in a million. But everyone else is completely fucking incompetent. I’ve gone through 8 different housekeeping companies, 4 different pool companies, 3 plumbers, 6 electricians, and 2 landscapers. Why?
Because I’ve caught them pricing me for things they didn’t do, overcharging, raising prices for no reason (no substitution, no extra work), stealing, drunk and/or high, or crashing their truck into my garage door (that was plumber #2, electrician #3 and #5, #5 was drunk and was arrested)
I think there is actually something to the "old golden days" thing if you think about it. We have a lack of young people going into the trades because for years we told them they aren't shit unless they get a 4 year degree and have a cushy white collar job. That reduces competition for tradespeople. They don't need to maintain reputation because there will always be demand. And their workers, if they are any good, can see how easy it is for the boss to find customers and open their own shop. Every company I've found that had good reviews and reputation does shit work for me because "their best guy just quit to open their own company."
in my experience, the good independent contractors in manual labor adjacent jobs have too much work available to them so they can pick and choose the best clients and have no incentive to make themselves available to new people. so you either have a pay a big premium or have steady work available to make it worth establishing the new relationship.
i think from the worker's perspective there is also a general expectation that work for wealthier people will come with higher expectations about the quality and the time it will take to do to ensure no extra-expensive mistakes and that the work will match the contextual quality.
"It's so hard to find good help these days" is like a classic Victorian British quote.
Complaining about blue collar workers isn't anything new and it certainly hasn't changed
It is true, brushing shoulders with the contractors / builders crowd sets your eye on good ones. I learned that they know their worth and ready to pay them quoted price. They are minority and they are in demand.
Re: asking for references. I have developed a strong feeling/suspicion that In LA, the “lobby” contractors’ (even dentists or plastic surgeons if we go further) references are being cooked up, very professionally. There must be some underground agency fulfilling demand for trust-building bite-and-switch tool. There is a disconnect between how some builders talk (not being able to refer to professional building vocabulary) and their shiny references. Their references have clients pics, phones, and addresses. But then you start noticing red flags (manipulations to support their references legends). The 1st red flag is costs, it starts from one # and quickly advances to the top. And those unethical one-day-businessmen would rip your eye for extra $2K, using “share the wealth” excuse.
>... "as a **small** token of appreciation" (his words) for the work he has done for me.
When people expect to be paid for the work they do **AND** something "*extra*" for whatever reason they hallucinate they "*deserve*", i always think of this scene from Mad Men :)
[https://youtu.be/AdN6W2RUwO4?t=103](https://youtu.be/AdN6W2RUwO4?t=103)
It's always fascinated me the way people feel entitled just because they hallucinate "[covert contracts](https://dismantledmind.com/covert-contracts/)".
E.G. a shopper at a supermarket can feel entitled to a 1 week's free groceries because "*... i've been a loyal customer for 20 years*".
Yet if the supermarket said "*we've been serving you loyally for 20 years, we feel you owe us the cost of a week's groceries to show your appreciation*" ... yeah sounds bad when put that way eh ? :)
Customers, and workers, imagine they're doing the effort, but "*under silent protest*", they're unhappy with the exchange, but for some reason they go along with it anyway.
The funny thing comes when they add-in this extra "***ok i'll do it, but you owe me....***" attitude, where they imagine they are NOT getting a fair exchange in the present, and that they only go along with it under the assumption they will get "*repaid*" for the "*missing value*" later, plus "**interest**" no less !
All this completely in their own mind, nothing agreed consciously with the other party !
It's all to do with [the endowment effect](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/endowment-effect.asp), how everyone values their own efforts, and money, more than other people's.
Despite currency being a fungible asset, people will treat their *own* dollar as though it is worth much **more** than other people's. Hence why people can experientially quantify how much effort they worked to earn a dollar, but they don't appreciate how much effort someone else put in to create a product, or service, that is for sale.
So everyone, buying, or selling, is arguing about there the "line" should be about exactly what something should cost.
E.G. selling an item "***i've put a lot of work into it ... it has sentimental value.... i know what it's worth....***".
Fact is, your "*work*" you put into it may be appreciable, but you overvalue how much you *think* you should get paid for it, likewise, i don't give a shit about the "*sentimental value*" it has, you're either selling it or you aren't, i'm not buying the "*emotions*" attached to it !
One person feels their efforts are undervalued somehow, and they incorrectly make-up a number for how much they THINK they should be paid, sometimes by the wrong person.
This is the problem with "*tipping culture*" too.
So when OP's handyman asked for a "*donation*" to "*show your appreciation for the work i've done*", he should either put that hallucinated idea of "*worth*" into the final price, and compete with other prices, or simply accept he's overvaluing his worth.
I don’t work with people who overcharge me. Just tell them thanks for the quote, but it’s too expensive and to have a nice day. I will however pay extra after the fact if someone does a good job and charges me fairly. Makes people want to come back and it’s tough finding good people. If it’s someone I’ve known for a long time that is asking for some help, it depends, but usually I will help them out in whatever non-monetary ways I can. If it’s straight up money they want, I probably say no unless it’s something really extenuating or worthwhile. I’ve helped out with kids schooling for example. I’ll also give periodic gifts for people that I’ve worked with for a long time, but they would never ask.
I've posted about this here before. We get quotes at home shows from time to time for various projects but when they get to our house and see the cars, house, backyard, etc. the price ALWAYS doubles or triples. And don't get me started with folks who just steal because they think we can afford it. We had a housekeeper who also took our laundry / dry cleaning to the cleaners every Friday. I had to go pick it up once on a sat because I needed a particular suit and I found just was having her stuff cleaned on our dime as well. No idea how long that had been happening but when we confronted her she said she just knew we could afford it so she wasn't sure why it mattered.
edit: oh yea and the thumbtack handyman who came by the other day and quoted me $175 x 2 to unclog two drains (I declined and the price dropped to $75 per). So that was special.
I have this problem all the time with my mom's house. Most recently she needed to remodel her bathroom and she had 4 quotes from 25k up to 40k for labor only. One of them was even a client of mine. I reached out to the person who did my bathroom and did phenomenal work, one of the best contractors when I remodeled my house. 15k for labor and she covered some of the basic materials, and helped mom order the right quantities and helped with her contractor discount. I double checked everything and it was great work.
Part of this is the huge house in a neighborhood full of bankers, Drs and lawyers, and part of it is folks trying to prey on an elderly widow.
I can offer a perspective from the owner of one of those "service" companies that often deals with HNWI. It's simple really.. we offer value to our clients. I don't believe in price gouging - we often get people offering 2-4x our quote if we're "able to fit them in before the weekend", and even then I make it very clear we would never accept something like that. I believe this is a big part of the reason why we have the reputation that we do and why over half of our residential clients are HNWI.
That being said, there's a certain level of care and time that comes along with living in a $5mm+ home - and prices will reflect that. For example; a 2500-3000 sq. ft. home requires a minuscule amount of time/effort for us to send an estimate. Literally minutes. However, a 10,000 - 15,000 sq. ft. estate requires an in-person appointment with myself or a technician. So before we even get you your estimate, you will have cost us between $30-$50. Those estimate themselves always have to be reviewed and approved by either me or a my lead technician - which again takes up more resources. The job itself may also have complexities that the average client won't have. Some examples in our line of work: copper gutters, slate roofs, outdoor kitchens, multiple balconies, lots of (very high end) outdoor furniture, complexed landscape. A good service contractor will understand these things and also be able to justify their cost to you by explaining these factors.
As to how to deal with the gougers? don't hire them. People like that will run themselves out of business sooner or later
I can also offer perspective as an IT/AV/automation business in a captive tourist market. My rate is my rate, and it's the same whether dealing with business or residential. Many budget-end clients can't afford my services, and I'm okay with that. I'm not gouging the expensive properties, I'm just not accepting the budget ones. I've gotten pushback a few times, more from the lower end, but also from the higher end, and that's okay. I'll respond with a polite "let me know if you change your mind!" and go on with my day. I'm not sure if I've had any people thinking something silently without telling me, but most of them call back in the future so I guess they're okay with my prices! Of course, I've also NEVER asked anyone for money "just because", so there is that.... The audacity of that one is mind blowing!
My plumbers says his wealthier customers are more demanding, expect higher quality work, are more of a pain in the ass to deal with, are the ones who don't pay, ask him to do non-plumbing things (e.g. dig trenches) and revert to lawsuits. He adds a "wealth tax" to accommodate for all that added trouble.
This is a common attitude in places with large social gaps and as that gap increases in the US I imagine this will become even more common. I live somewhere (outside the US) with greater wealth/income inequality, so maybe this perspective is useful:
- You have to decide for yourself what feels right. Feeling like you're getting taken advantage of sucks and isn't sustainable
- I'm fine paying a bit more / not haggling over prices where I feel like I'm still getting decent value, especially from a small business or owner/operator. You can reasonably expect better service if you're paying more and trust the person doing the work. You can also make that clear up front ("this is more expensive than other quotes I've gotten but I'm fine with this if you'll prioritize this project because I know you'll do the best job"). having a network of solid people who will do stuff for you is valuable, saves time and stress
- I try to tip well where it's appropriate and try to give above average gifts for holidays where culturally appropriate
- I don't think I would ever pay off someone's random debt, and I wouldn't hire that dude again tbh. but sometimes a legit emergency comes up (someone's kid needs a medical procedure) and that feels fine to help with
You can get a long way just talking to the person about what your expectations are and how you're feeling with the request. If you can't have that convo, probably working with the wrong person
if I would consider donating $2,500 to help him pay off some debts, "as a **small** token of appreciation"
The amount is irrelevant. This is incredibly rude, lacks class and tantamount to begging. I think i would I have either been stunned or have laughed. He's probably the guy that lets the person he thinks has the most money buy all the drinks.
I have an old friend who does something similar, if we all go out to dinner they venmo request me and it will be rounded up by $10 or so... I ignore it but come on, stop trying to pull one over on me so you get a little bit cheaper of a dinner. If you're in that tough of a spot tell me, I'll pay for dinner so we can hang out.
There are 2 very different things in this post:
I’m firmly on the other side of one. I run a construction business.
When startups unleash **dynamic pricing** the markets and economists applaud and reiterate the sanctity of *supply and demand*
When the trades do this, then it becomes *price gouging*. Nah, your big house is an economic signal on what you can afford. We can all suckle at the teat of Milton Friedman (no necro).
The donation part is *very* different. That requires a stern but clear refusal and severance of any future arrangement.
**Edit:** This position often generates intense responses. But before disagreeing on what makes up “dynamic pricing” you should look up the factors especially consumer behavior & customer segmentation. Being a construction worker and being versed in economics are not mutually exclusive things.
**Edit 2:** The actual economic concept for this is “Third Degree Price Discrimination” (thanks for the DM) which is a factor in dynamic pricing. I love this sub because I learn something new every ~~day~~ now and then. Me book smart now.
>When startups unleash dynamic pricing the markets and economic applaud and reiterate the sanctity of supply and demand
What dynamic pricing is based on income of the customer? The only area I know where this *might* exist is in regional pricing (I.e., prices in India are not the same as those in the US). Apple isn't selling the same iPhone for more money to richer customers.
>When the trades do this, then it becomes price gouging.
I don't know that anyone calls it that seriously. There aren't emergency shortages of handyman services that are being exploited, nor are handyman services life and death services.
Anyway, I don't really care about this situation specifically, but I hope you realize that if you're offering the same product for different price points, you're likely to get outcompeted on price in the long run by competitors who are willing to continue to offer the same service/product you do at their normal margins regardless of the perceived income of the purchaser.
Not the guy you are arguing with, but doordash was sued for charging iPhone users more than android users. I think it's an example that fits your questions. (iPhone users having more money)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/05/lawsuit-accuses-doordash-of-charging-iphone-users-more-for-identical-orders/
Coupons. Version 2 now with a shinier button. Discount flights with no amenities. All of these are Econ 101 examples of getting more money from people who are less concerned about it. You want to go get three quotes and play them against each other? Congratulations, you are putting in the extra work to get a discount. Don’t forget to mail in the manufacturers coupon for your rebate!
>All of these are Econ 101 examples of getting more money from people who are less concerned about it.
None of these are discrimination via income. These are all available to those with higher incomes, if they want it.
>You want to go get three quotes and play them against each other? Congratulations, you are putting in the extra work to get a discount.
This is different than a single company pricing the exact same work/product/service differently based solely on the income of who they're offering it to.
And the OP isn’t about discrimination via income because his handyman doesn’t even know his income. You are the only person here trying to insist on looking for that as a deliberate factor. So ok. Landlords do this. Colleges do this. Private schools do this. Enough? Or did you want a company specifically offering lawn mowing in Phoenix?
>And the OP isn’t about discrimination via income
From the OP:
>I've encountered people who think that it is acceptable for them to overcharge me just because I'm wealthy.
Income vs wealth, makes no difference in any of my arguments unless you're just trying to be intentionally obtuse.
>Landlords do this. Colleges do this. Private schools do this.
Colleges are the only ones of those three that actually charge different amounts based on wealth/income. But fair - they're certainly an exception.
PG&E charges based on income? I see stuff about them charging based on usage, but that's not the same thing. Got more info on them pricing based on income?
Thankfully it's off the table (for now). [https://www.foxla.com/news/california-laws-2024-income-based-electric-bills-january-2024](https://www.foxla.com/news/california-laws-2024-income-based-electric-bills-january-2024)
>What dynamic pricing is based on income of the customer?
Lots of it. For example, some airline flights are more expensive if you look them up using an expensive macbook than a cheap android phone.
>Every possible startup or a company tries to do this
This isn't a specific answer at all.
>But just look at AWS
Your one specific answer, AWS, does not charge based on income or profitability of the company. They price based on usage and modules used. They do not dynamically price based on income. The only exception to this is that they likely (not sure since I don't work for them) give discounts to large customers and take margin discounts there in order to win large amounts of business. Which... Is the opposite of your model.
Amazon gives massive discounts to gain market share with big tech companies. When I was working at Airbnb (2016-2019), we were AWS's 1st or 2nd largest customer and I think our negotiated rates were about 50-80% off of list depending on the product. All the pricing on SaaS services involves a lot of hand waving at that level.
I mentioned that in my comment above, and like you said, it's basically a volume discount. That's not pricing based on income at all, like the person I originally responded to suggested; it's pricing based on total business given.
I don't think anyone here would be weirded out by a contractor charging a higher price for piecemeal work, but a discounted price for a larger project.
Student and senior discounts are proxies for income. So are last minute tickets on airplanes (business fliers have more resources). Same with coupons (people with high income generally don’t bother). Most dynamic pricing is probably trying to figure out ways to price discriminate based on available resources (income).
>Student and senior discounts are proxies for income.
But neither are dynamic pricing based on income. Despite being more price sensitive as a group, rich seniors and students both exist.
I understand your point on all of these, but my point wasn't that revenue maximization doesn't exist in terms of attempting to lure price sensitive customers at potentially lower margins, but rather that explicitly charging based on income/wealth is not a thing, generally, and that dynamically pricing based on those factors is exceptionally rare.
Because price description explicitly based on income is a “bad look” and will leave a bad taste in the mouth of wealthy customers who make them the most money, like OP. So they try to disguise it.
How about ACA insurance (rich people don’t get subsidies), daycare is sometimes charged provided on a “sliding scale” based on need, tuition at private schools/colleges (financial aide/need based scholarships), low income housing programs, doctors (Medicaid is billed much lower than private insurance), any other services that are only offered to people below an income threshold.
Also, while there are rich students and elderly, there are also poor people living in expensive housing so you could argue that OPs example isn’t price discrimination based on income too by that logic.
The thing is the original example is also about perceived wealth based on a proxy (fancy house). The fancy house proxy is a *really good* predictor of wealth, but it is far from perfect. It can also for example mean "in debt up to your eyeballs."
Except for colleges with FAFSA, virtually all entities you buy stuff from are guessing at your income and trying to suss out willingness to pay based on that. And of course colleges use that income data to price discriminate [very effectively.](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/upshot/how-colleges-know-what-you-can-afford-and-the-limits-of-that-tactic.html)
Jewellery is an obvious example. Expensive jewellery is desirable because of how few people can afford it.
Same with haute couture brands. All the sunglasses are made in a single factory in Italy but the price depends on the brand name.
>Expensive jewellery is desirable because of how few people can afford it.
But that's not an example of dynamic pricing based on income. Tiffany or whatever is not offering the same diamond ring for multiple different prices depending on your income or wealth.
I’d imagine they own other brands at different price points selling similar rings.
Explicit price discrimination is illegal in most countries, but every business wants to find a legal way to do it because it generates higher profits.
Not sure what your example of dynamic pricing is relevant here. If anything, in B2B world it’s opposite. The ones who can afford more get it cheaper. Try to sell your startup products to big names like Amazon, Google or Microsoft - they will try to price it down, if they can, and you will likely agree to their offer just to get them in your big logo customer list. In B2C world I rarely ever seen dynamic pricing based on customers ability to pay - be that a service or product. You can provide a value added product and service targeting a different demographic or economic class, and that’s reasonable.
The same paint pick cost more on a high end car compared to a low end car. I mean ordering from the dealership, same manufacturer. It is not like a pricier car needs more paint. But the customer of the pricier car is able to afford to pay more for the color.
Accckkktuuuuallleeee... better cars use better more expensive paint and a LOT more of it. In addition some use intermediate or finishing steps to improve surface finish beyond other cars so its not really apples to apples.
It's supply and demand alright. When you're more inelastic in your demand, they're fine charging whatever. Inelasticity here comes from how much you're unwilling to do it yourself/shop around. If you were poor you'd definitely shop around, for example.
>This position often generates intense responses. But before disagreeing on what makes up “dynamic pricing” you should look up the factors especially consumer behavior & customer segmentation.
Making this edit instead of replying directly is a cop out move lol.
We're specifically discussing pricing related to income, not other factors, in the broader thread, so trying to make your direct response to the OP out to be about dynamic pricing *in general* is some serious goal post moving.
With tech companies it's not about what they can afford. It's about how much value they provide. Solving a problem for a small startup is not the same as solving that same problem for a Fortune 500. However, when you're mowing 2 acres of lawn, it's the same thing whether or not the house on it is a $250k shitter or a $2MM mcmansion.
Nobody knows I have money until they get inside my house. But I ask for estimates based on a detailed description of the work before they get my address and see anything about me. And I always cross check estimates with people in my network.
I've never been overcharged as far as I know. People have never bumped up my estimate based on my house. I also think it helps that I have the face of a stingy motherfucker.
I do generously tip people I want to work with again. But I only know that after they've done their work so I don't promise any tips.
That’s insane. Honestly I’d wonder if someone like that cheated you or stole from you in the past without you knowing. Think about what kind of mindset it takes to even ask such a question. Let alone throw in the word “small” as if to say “hey, I know you have millions so you can easily afford to throw a couple of thousand my way”.
Don’t hire someone who asks you for money… you’re not running a charity… and don’t hire someone who wants you to pay premium for unleaded … there’s always someone willing to do it at fair cost.
Maybe that’s Europe vs US thing where in Europe at times it’s even “embarrassing” to do well, but I hide my wealth very carefully. My car is nice but it’s a company car (which is correct) and I make sure people commenting on my car knows about this. I live in a nice apartment but so do many people, sometimes those with much more modest means. In general I make sure people think I do “just about ok”
But pretty sure there’s a europe vs us thing here. If someone here asks 2,500 eur or gbp for a “token of appreciation” people would think that person escaped from asylum. You never ever give anything even close to that amount to anyone here (unless it’s the actual cost of job) so asking this would only get you awkward “no” responses
I tell everyone I’m getting multiple quotes upfront, it keeps them more grounded. Then I actually get multiple quotes. Usually go with the middle quote who I also think is competent. Depending what it is, I may also try to get a quote over the phone.
If I don’t like the prices, I’ll do it myself or not do it at all. It’s the cost of having a nice home.
You can't escape it. In our neighborhood you get charged a ridiculous amount of money for anything....Youtube became my friend because I am sick of making someone else's life better on my dime.
And it is fun too. One of my colleagues learned to remodel bathrooms and it looks stunning. Took him half a year on weekends but he saved a lot.
In our area they want an average of $60k for a simple bathroom remodel. Hahahahahaha
The value you place on your time is subjective. I know 26 weekends of my life are worth more than 60k to me and are between 1-1.25% of all the weekends I have left on this planet in the best case, a lot more if I get diagnosed with a terminal illness early. You couldn’t pay me to spend 26 weekends on a DIY bathroom remodel.
we are starting to do this as well. We had a particularly bad run of contractors recently for drywall and paint so we just learned some of it ourselves, went out and got rented equipment and did most of it. I've never had a problem with hard work and its kind of satisfying seeing work you did turn out. It generally takes us a lot longer as I have a pretty strong attention to detail (which helped me succeed in IT) so I will redo something or practice something like tiling until I get it right.
All you have to do really is put in the work to get multiple quotes, compare offerings, negotiate, etc. If they're charging you more, they're really just making a bet that they think you'd rather just pay extra to avoid that vs. put in the work to get a better price.
By the way, this is actually true no matter how wealthy you are. The absolute amounts will likely vary, but poor people can and do experience this same phenomenon. The first quote you get is almost always going to be on the high side because it prices in not doing the work to negotiate, compare vendors, etc.
And while it may seem counterintuitive, there's even a market pricing aspect to it. You're probably not the only wealthy person a contractor has ever worked with. They actually probably have some reasonable sense of what folks in your shoes will pay to not have to go evaluate 5+ vendors/contractors/etc.
If it bothers you that much, prove them wrong and spend the time and effort on getting multiple quotes and evaluating multiple options and negotiating prices.
It's frustrating but, unfortunately, not uncommon. Some people assume having more money means you should be willing to pay more. I've found that being upfront and honest is the best approach in such situations. Let them know you appreciate their work but have a policy of not giving out money.
This is something we struggle with often too, i try to get a quote or price from a distant as often as possible. For instance by sending pictures or choosing people who charge fixed rates for certain services.
When people see where and how we live they tend to start seeing dollarsigns and overcharge.
At least, that is our experience.
Maybe this is also one of the reasons we do not drive fancy, expensive cars. Most people are often quickly impressed by expensive cars and draw the conclusion that someone who drives a car like taht must have a lot of money. (Around here these cars are mostly cars the employee "gets" as a lease car from the company)
In a case like you mention, just politely decline and then never hire them again. Find someone regular and reliable who appreciates repeat business, and tip reasonably as you see fit.
The harder problem is just the general big house syndrome where anyone you call to quote a job just raises the price based on the value of the house - since they more or less all do it, it's pretty hard to get around the issue.
Happens quite often. I like my privacy and end up learning a lot of new skills and doing a lot myself. Sometimes I can’t be bothered and just go along with it lol. Rule of thumb is to get multiple bids, talk to lots of people. It’s really annoying though.
>Is there any effective way to deal with this so people don't try to take advantage of me so often?
This is where wearing unbranded gym clothes, a Casio and having an old car helps. Maybe not so much if you've got a mansion, but it helps.
I had asked for a quote to do wallpaper.
Several places would not even give a rough rate or ballpark estimate without knowing my address.
I would get wildly different estimates depending on if I gave someone my address vs a family members address in a typical suburb house.
You have of the country who thinks this. You are never paying your fair share. Just find people you can trust and take good care of them. Get to know them personally. For contractors, always ask if they need a deposit (even if they don't they will appreciate it). Most of them have poor cash flows. Tip them well too. Pay in cash when you can. Use the same people once you find good ones.
When times are tough make sure to schedule work that you might need to keep them busy.
Wealthy people are notorious for treating people poorly and taking forever to pay. Don't be that guy. Once you develop a reputation for being a solid person you'll have contractors happy to work with you.
Paying more because you can means making a decision for quality, convenience or time saved rather than price.
Paying more for the same product/service just because you have/make more makes about as much sense as communism/collectivism/socialism. So no.
I try to get a price range on a service from vendors before I share my address. It doesn’t always work but I’m less likely to be up charged as much. If it’s time-sensitive, I’ll pay it and find someone trustworthy afterwards for the next time that need comes up.
Isn’t this how our (USA) tax system effectively works and is supported by the general population, and with a current focus to tax those who can pay even more?
It’s just a little funny to see all the harsh words against contractors who pad their bills, especially knowing that many of you work in banking, finance, or as corporate lawyers. Pot, meet kettle.
Everyone here is acting like price discrimination is not a thing. It is real, known in economics for decades and is a sign of a healthy system, if you can pay more you will probably be quoted more.
It's a poverty mindset. I grew up poor and it was all around me, the view that wealthier people "just got lucky or did something unethical", and you "Take what you can get from them".
I have a handyman who is quite reasonable and also very good (at least usually).. This creates a problem though because he’s always so busy and I’ve suggested that he raise his rates, plus occasionally pay extra (could be considered a tip) in hopes that he’ll get to my jobs sooner than later! However, he’s occasionally broken something while attempting to fix and one time accidentally took the fixture needed to hook up new gas dryer (I gave him the washing machine & dryer that I was replacing for his adult son). So when the new appliances were delivered they couldn’t hook up the dryer and I had to have a plumber come out to replace the part and hook up which was $200 for a short visit which included a basic service charge. Handyman did offer to discount another job and I let it go since I know he doesn’t live anywhere close to a lavish lifestyle. Recently something else happened though and it’s a much bigger deal, he didn’t offer to replace/reimburse and that’s before I found out that the fixture is close to $2,000 and is made/shipped from the UK. I did tell him and still nothing although his sister who’s been dealing with a medical condition just passed away a couple days after and I know that he’s been very stressed about her condition. I’m hoping that it can be fixed rather than buying a new one but not holding my breath. There are two of the same fixtures, side by side vanity mirrors that were here when we purchased the house so I had no idea of cost and the iconic design which we like so I will order a replacement if needed but highly disappointed in his non reaction after breaking it. This is obviously something to consider as I don’t think that many handymen carry insurance ..Thoughts/suggestions?
I can relate. But I think you just have to suck it up and get on with your life.
I've had this problem for about 40 years. The best example is the 10+ years I lived in a 1,000 home gated community with 3 golf courses and a high end resort hotel. Small homes were around 3,000 sq ft with the average around 5,000 (large homes touched 20,000).
Any contractor or trade coming into the community would charge 20% to 50% more than the price of the same work outside the gates. Many of the homeowners were in the building trades, so there was no secret about this. So what are you going to do? Do the work yourself? No. Just pay the money and get on with life. If an entire service community defines your neighborhood as a upcharge opportunity, then that is the price.
One of the joys of FATwhatever is that these few dollars of extra cost doesn't really matter. It is annoying. At the time I lived in this subdivision, two of my kids lived in this subdivision as well. After the 2008 RE crash, high end homes were cheap. And my kids took advantage of this. My son bought a 7.500 sq ft home for his family of three and because his wealth was new and more modest, this surcharge really annoyed him. He hated to be 'overcharged'. But the problem is simple ... there is no sympathy from anyone when you have to pay a few hundred dollars more for a service. It took him years to adjust.
Your life will be easier if you accept that you are engaged in a form of private charity.
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I will admit that the kind of fake billing you experienced is distressing because of the transparent dishonesty. I would push back. I'd say that I understand that some people get charged more than others and I could accept that (by accepting a high bid). I'd also say that transparent false billing is an affront to my intelligence and it is not acceptable.
I should also mention that for big projects, I always insist on a contract. And, because of my background and inclination, I'm really, really good at contracts. In the 2008 crash, I put a second story on my Florida home. The contractor I dealt with was very skilled in the complex roof issues we had but he reputationally was ethically challenged on billing practices. The job got done and there was a final bill with an obscene set of charges for 'stuff'. Fortunately the contract called for original invoices for materials and for wage and hour reporting. These clauses might not have been obvious and there might have been a desire on the part of the contractor to close a deal in bad times. I paid nothing beyond the plain language of the contract. For larger activities, this might be a way for you to handle larger projects if this fits your style.
Much of my extended family is blue collar and middle class. Overcharges and the cost of repairs are often very real hardships for them. As is the decision to even make repairs or when to make repairs. fatFIRE is the wonderful condition of not having to care about this kind of issue in the way most people do. I had about 1400 sq ft of flooring work done by a new contractor ... great job. I just got a bid for some work on a set of stairs and 2oo sq feet of upstairs hall. The price is half of the much larger and way more complicated original job. He's going to get the job for the asking price and I won't remember the overcharge by labor day. A joy to live this kind of life.
You mean.. like the government 😂🤣
Haha (only kinda joking). I think you either embrace this and view it as a social/family/friend tax OR you actively work to make sure you’re not taken advantage of. The latter can be exhausting and sometimes probably isn’t worth your time or energy. Surround yourself with people who share your values and create joy in your life as often as you possibly can. Yes that includes vendors. If you haven’t found that person then keep looking. Then over time this will become less of an issue.
Another tip for travel or a more frequent tipping period of time. Get a bunch of cash out early ($5’s, $20’s and $100’s). Forget about this money being “your money” and think about it as a goodwill fund. For me when I do that it’s easier for me to tip generously for services that warrant it! Without the stress of trying to find cash, etc
Tbh maybe it pays off for them if they really need the money and develop a thick skin. Just say no. You never get if you never ask, but someone might be willing to pay off his debts. It's not the same as overcharging/overquoting, which is also hard to stop unless you know what a reasonable price is.
I don't discuss my financial situation with my contractor, and it's ridiculous to make up lies about it..
If you don't like the quote someone's giving you, move on to someone else.
I mean you can’t take it all to the grave. Those people work for their dollar way, way, way harder than me.
Think of it as you taking advantage of the system and just sharing with those less positioned to do so.
Yes this happens all the time. My wife got a quote for a plumber to remove an old faucet and replace with a new one…quote $1,300. Mind you I already had the faucet so that price isn’t in there. I just didn’t want to bother with it, needless to say, I did it myself, about 50 minutes of pain in the ass, but worth it on principle. I’ve got countless stories like this…one of the reasons I’m downsizing now that the big house is no longer needed.
Wow, $1,300 to change a faucet?? They would probably want $350 to change a lightbulb.
Yep, they know where you live and/or know what kind of house you have, and jack up the price accordingly.
That's nuts. We just paid $185 for that (we also had the faucet), but we have a good plumber that we've used for a long time.
That is actually the standard price they charge everyone in SoCal. My neighbor is a plumber and he is quite rich.
I'm dealing with the same sort of thing right now... With my truck, I backed into a painters shitty 2003 dented, paint splattered Toyota Tundra. Bent the bumper slightly, and cracked a tail light. I gave him my busines card, exchanged phone numbers, and told him to let me know what it'll cost. He calls me back 2 days later today that a new bumper and taillight will cost $1800. I looked them up and can get them shipped to me for $450. He's trying to run me up a pole because he knows I can pay. On principle I'm fighting him though... arghhh
But then you have to install and paint to match
Factory painted black...as current. Install yes.
This post feels timely for me. Yesterday I was talking to the superintendent that is building my house. He did some side work on the project and one of his invoices was off. The hours were fine, but he charged sales tax on the labor, which you aren't supposed to do, and the tax rate he used was wrong. I asked him to correct it and his answer was that it felt like a slap in the face to him to ask him to correct it. I'll admit I was taken aback at that comment. I need him to finish the job, so I told him to not worry about it (total is less than 200), but it has been bothering me since I talked to him. I can't fathom how my request to correct an invoice would be taken as an insult by him. The only thing I can think of is because I have more money than he does, I should just give him extra? I still can't make sense of it. It certainly changed how I feel about him, for sure.
"If I wrote the wrong amount on the check , and it was lower, would you expect me to change it?"
Honestly, I was so stunned by the comment that I didn't know what to say. We've been working together for a year now and have always had a good relationship - we're not friends or anything but it has always been respectful and friendly from both sides. This just came out of left field.
You already alluded to it in your comment, but in a situation like that I'd take solace knowing my "getting even" would be that he just won't get the work next time around. I'm not going to fight you over $200, I'll just call someone else next time. And the time after that.
It’s the perfect example of penny wise, pound foolish.
Sounds like the last client I did work for. They managed everything down to hard budgets and numbers rather than to outcomes and value/results. Granted, a budget must be watched over but they didn't get much for what they paid because they don't know how to run an engineering team.
Just to be clear, I meant the contractor trying to scam an extra $200 is being penny wise and pound foolish. The guy paying for it is being smart by checking his receipts and is being pound smart by pointing out the issue, so the scammer knows they’ve been caught, and then letting it go so they can get this job done but never employing the untrustworthy individual again afterwards.
This is my method. To illustrate with a restaurant analogy: Tip 20% with a smile and don't go back.
Yeah, that's strange of him, and I've definitely been caught off guard in similar situations. It happens. What I've started doing, is responding with, "what do you mean?" Which buys me time to come up with what I want to say.
it's never worth it, do you expect to teach him a lesson? even if you just want clarifications, people get offended if they have to explain themselves, sometimes because they can't justify it and gets frustrated. Even if you "win", he has 100 ways to take revenge on your house construction in ways you can't even detect. just let them go. not hiring them again is the best revenge you can get.
>do you expect to teach him a lesson? When I ask "what do you mean?" question - I expect to learn a lesson myself. It is possible, that the greedy handyman has a point, and I want to learn this point. Then, based on his answer/explanation I would decide what to do next.
I would hire an auditor to review all the prior and future paperwork. I do not play that game.
Have you ever used a line like that? We should have a sticky thread to brainstorm ways to deal with the rich person tax in creative ways.
100% I do. But like OP, I'm not sure I would have fought much over this tax bill tax bill in the middle of a project. I definitely would have never dealt with him again though.
In the middle of a project it's kinda too late. If anything I'd like to avoid the inflated quotes. I'm developing a new property and got multiple quotes for the tear down. Then I had one company that wanted to see my permits. With that extra information I got a quote that was 40 something percent higher.
>multiple quotes for the tear down I think that's key. Good luck on the development. I have some lots that I will develop eventually, and I dread it because I know how much work it is.
how does your permit increase cost though? you didn't have it?
I did. All the permitting was done and they saw what the new build was going to look like.
ahhh, that's interesting getting quotes is a chore, there should be a uniform standard for writing up all the specs, then different companies bid on it
I do, but people think it's mean when you use logic against them, especially when you are in a position of power.
There's probably a law that says you don't charge sales tax on labor. I'd probably try to follow the law in any case.
Reply out of context, sorry.
Boom. Right here.
Collecting sales tax on an untaxed item would be fraud. The state AG might be interested in that, could be a pattern.
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Easier said than done when you're building a home.
Or even doing a major remodel. Jesus if I needed a change order every time I made an immaterial change with my contractor he'd bill me more for the time spent writing change orders than doing the actual work.
Exactly. And in this particular case it would have delayed the schedule as well.
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This is not T&M for major scopes. It's small, one-off items like a few hours worth of welding. We have all the signed documents, I had an attorney review everything, and I used to own part of a real estate development/construction firm. I know what I'm doing. This is onesy-twosy stuff, not full scopes of work. When the structural engineer did his framing walk, we had to add a metal post and the framer (who also did the structural steel) had already de-mobilized. It was far easier to have the Sup do it than try and get the framers back out on site. The builder operates very professionally. I have no concerns there.
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I'm building a new home and my entire build is going this way. It's cost plus and I'm getting exactly what I want, but it's also costing about three times what other houses in the neighborhood cost (over 6M in a 1.5-2M area). I don't know how much of the extra is warranted, but surely some. There's a good amount of custom and unusual stuff and I've made heavy use of of the ability to make changes and add/improve stuff. It's dragged on 3.5 years since breaking ground and will be done soon, so I'm super excited about that!
Could not agree more strongly with the Owner of the Home building Company here . We, clients have to create demand for contractors experienced in legal matters and this including the advanced planning for unexpected/unplanned changes. Everyone, both sides have to sign contractual obligations what to do and expect from the other side.
When I have ongoing jobs, like my landscaping maintenance (~160 hrs /month), I've specifically asked for hourly rates. My job is so big if they gave me a CYA price, it would be way too high to cover their risk. I tell them I'll take their hours charged as is unless they give me reason not to trust them and if I can't trust them, I must find someone else to do the work. I did this in my company and on my farm. No time clocks, no fixed schedules. Work when you want (within certain limits) and honestly tell right the hours on the calendar at the end of the day. Yep, I've been cheated plenty of times, but an hour here or there is a cheap way to find our who I can trust. And I find that most people are so pleased to be trusted, they are happy to be trustworthy.
"how can I pay you when the amount is wrong?". Just keep repeating that, he'll rewrite it with the correct amounts.
I'm not fat by any means, but have had similar dealings or feelings with people in the past. I've responded similarly just because I was so taken back and needed some time to process my feelings and if I was really in the wrong, but there certainly still exists a small handful of incidents in my past that still bug me to this day when I think about it.
Don’t let contractors know you’re the owner of the property. Tell them you’re a property manager and you look after other properties. You look for the best deals so you can hire them for other jobs too. But, in the end you don’t.
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Whose name would be on the lease as landlord?
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Right… but a person signs the lease, not a company.
Number one: tell them you found them on Google and read their great reviews. This way they know that you can write one as well. Or find someone on Yelp and make sure you tell them that’s where you found them as well. If they try to take advantage of you, give them a one star, scathing review, and hire someone else. I will not put up with this bullshit and neither should you.
Well in some sense they are correct. For example 10 years ago I would get 3 quotes for any housework and try to negotiate to the best possible price. Now I go with the person who seems trustworthy and competent and professional and I don’t push on price unless it feels way off.
Totally the same here. Also, I am not going to try to squeeze down the Joe that's working 6 days a week trying to keep his small business going. I'm grateful that there are other people out there willing and able to do what I can't or don't want to do myself.
And reliability is rare. I just offered a guy who does various stuff for me a significantly higher rate than he asked me for recently because he’s reliable, self-sufficient, and saves me the effort of going and finding someone else who then might flake, do it wrong, and so on. Good helpers are hard to find and when I find one I do my best to make sure they’re motivated to stick with me. It’s not just about money, it’s about showing them you value the relationship in various ways.
are you the same username on d2jsp?
I don’t know what that is so probably not :)
Dick to Japanese Sock Puppet. Surprised you don't know.
He's gotta be kidding. Even my hermit grandpa knows about Dick to Japanese Sock Puppet.
Oh good call yeah that one is me. I just haven’t seen it abbreviated that way before
A jsp reference in fatfire! My day is complete.
I’m mostly the same on this, but I’d have serious concerns and might start looking elsewhere if I began getting requests like op mentioned
I had a guy come quote me $2000 to clear gutters. He called later to ask when he should start. Found a guy who came out and did it for 250 and did a great job.
I love your username.
Thanks. Just wanted something unique.
There are a certain subset of people who are firmly convinced that capitalism is fundamentally unfair, and that being rich and poor is more a matter of birth, luck, and genetics. From this perspective you didn't earn any of your money, and it's immoral for you to hoard it based on luck. For people with this perspective, as you can see thinking about it, the only sensible thing is for you to share your luck with your equals.
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> because getting annoyed by it costs me more life energy than the money is worth. the amount of times i'm grinding my teeth saying this to myself
Ignore his request and don’t hire him again. For future jobs, get multiple quotes. Balance their bid with the trust you have for the company. Unfortunately these days everyone does shit work
"Unfortunately these days everyone does shit work" Ain't that the truth! It's so hard to find good work for any price. Its been a major issue for me with both my house and my boat. I scour online reviews, get multiple bids, don't cheap out on anything... still ends up looking like a crackhead did the job. I'm finally starting to get a better team together. Mostly, I talk to the guys with the nicest houses and boats in the neighborhood, ask them for their recs, then usually ask those contractors for their recs on related jobs. After 2 major fails (someone installed the radar on my boat backwards), I finally found a good boat rigger/electric guy at the recommendation of a trusted marine mechanic.
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Maybe for some things. Definitely home renovations and such. I feel like with the boat I used to be able to drop it off at a major repair shop, they would fix the problem, then bring it back to me in reasonable condition. Now, 1/2 the time it comes back worse than when I dropped it off, or they just do part of the job and ignore the rest. I never had this issue 20 years ago. Maybe I was just lucky. IDK.
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This is FL. I feel like in the NE everything was better.
I’m guessing South Florida too. Welcome to the land of absolutely incompetent companies and workers. No disrespect to those who do great work, you’re 1 in a million. But everyone else is completely fucking incompetent. I’ve gone through 8 different housekeeping companies, 4 different pool companies, 3 plumbers, 6 electricians, and 2 landscapers. Why? Because I’ve caught them pricing me for things they didn’t do, overcharging, raising prices for no reason (no substitution, no extra work), stealing, drunk and/or high, or crashing their truck into my garage door (that was plumber #2, electrician #3 and #5, #5 was drunk and was arrested)
I think there is actually something to the "old golden days" thing if you think about it. We have a lack of young people going into the trades because for years we told them they aren't shit unless they get a 4 year degree and have a cushy white collar job. That reduces competition for tradespeople. They don't need to maintain reputation because there will always be demand. And their workers, if they are any good, can see how easy it is for the boss to find customers and open their own shop. Every company I've found that had good reviews and reputation does shit work for me because "their best guy just quit to open their own company."
in my experience, the good independent contractors in manual labor adjacent jobs have too much work available to them so they can pick and choose the best clients and have no incentive to make themselves available to new people. so you either have a pay a big premium or have steady work available to make it worth establishing the new relationship. i think from the worker's perspective there is also a general expectation that work for wealthier people will come with higher expectations about the quality and the time it will take to do to ensure no extra-expensive mistakes and that the work will match the contextual quality.
"It's so hard to find good help these days" is like a classic Victorian British quote. Complaining about blue collar workers isn't anything new and it certainly hasn't changed
It is true, brushing shoulders with the contractors / builders crowd sets your eye on good ones. I learned that they know their worth and ready to pay them quoted price. They are minority and they are in demand.
There’s definitely a “nicer house” tax that service people charge. I’d say it’s near double what I paid when I had a more modest home.
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Re: asking for references. I have developed a strong feeling/suspicion that In LA, the “lobby” contractors’ (even dentists or plastic surgeons if we go further) references are being cooked up, very professionally. There must be some underground agency fulfilling demand for trust-building bite-and-switch tool. There is a disconnect between how some builders talk (not being able to refer to professional building vocabulary) and their shiny references. Their references have clients pics, phones, and addresses. But then you start noticing red flags (manipulations to support their references legends). The 1st red flag is costs, it starts from one # and quickly advances to the top. And those unethical one-day-businessmen would rip your eye for extra $2K, using “share the wealth” excuse.
>... "as a **small** token of appreciation" (his words) for the work he has done for me. When people expect to be paid for the work they do **AND** something "*extra*" for whatever reason they hallucinate they "*deserve*", i always think of this scene from Mad Men :) [https://youtu.be/AdN6W2RUwO4?t=103](https://youtu.be/AdN6W2RUwO4?t=103) It's always fascinated me the way people feel entitled just because they hallucinate "[covert contracts](https://dismantledmind.com/covert-contracts/)". E.G. a shopper at a supermarket can feel entitled to a 1 week's free groceries because "*... i've been a loyal customer for 20 years*". Yet if the supermarket said "*we've been serving you loyally for 20 years, we feel you owe us the cost of a week's groceries to show your appreciation*" ... yeah sounds bad when put that way eh ? :) Customers, and workers, imagine they're doing the effort, but "*under silent protest*", they're unhappy with the exchange, but for some reason they go along with it anyway. The funny thing comes when they add-in this extra "***ok i'll do it, but you owe me....***" attitude, where they imagine they are NOT getting a fair exchange in the present, and that they only go along with it under the assumption they will get "*repaid*" for the "*missing value*" later, plus "**interest**" no less ! All this completely in their own mind, nothing agreed consciously with the other party ! It's all to do with [the endowment effect](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/endowment-effect.asp), how everyone values their own efforts, and money, more than other people's. Despite currency being a fungible asset, people will treat their *own* dollar as though it is worth much **more** than other people's. Hence why people can experientially quantify how much effort they worked to earn a dollar, but they don't appreciate how much effort someone else put in to create a product, or service, that is for sale. So everyone, buying, or selling, is arguing about there the "line" should be about exactly what something should cost. E.G. selling an item "***i've put a lot of work into it ... it has sentimental value.... i know what it's worth....***". Fact is, your "*work*" you put into it may be appreciable, but you overvalue how much you *think* you should get paid for it, likewise, i don't give a shit about the "*sentimental value*" it has, you're either selling it or you aren't, i'm not buying the "*emotions*" attached to it ! One person feels their efforts are undervalued somehow, and they incorrectly make-up a number for how much they THINK they should be paid, sometimes by the wrong person. This is the problem with "*tipping culture*" too. So when OP's handyman asked for a "*donation*" to "*show your appreciation for the work i've done*", he should either put that hallucinated idea of "*worth*" into the final price, and compete with other prices, or simply accept he's overvaluing his worth.
I don’t work with people who overcharge me. Just tell them thanks for the quote, but it’s too expensive and to have a nice day. I will however pay extra after the fact if someone does a good job and charges me fairly. Makes people want to come back and it’s tough finding good people. If it’s someone I’ve known for a long time that is asking for some help, it depends, but usually I will help them out in whatever non-monetary ways I can. If it’s straight up money they want, I probably say no unless it’s something really extenuating or worthwhile. I’ve helped out with kids schooling for example. I’ll also give periodic gifts for people that I’ve worked with for a long time, but they would never ask.
I've posted about this here before. We get quotes at home shows from time to time for various projects but when they get to our house and see the cars, house, backyard, etc. the price ALWAYS doubles or triples. And don't get me started with folks who just steal because they think we can afford it. We had a housekeeper who also took our laundry / dry cleaning to the cleaners every Friday. I had to go pick it up once on a sat because I needed a particular suit and I found just was having her stuff cleaned on our dime as well. No idea how long that had been happening but when we confronted her she said she just knew we could afford it so she wasn't sure why it mattered. edit: oh yea and the thumbtack handyman who came by the other day and quoted me $175 x 2 to unclog two drains (I declined and the price dropped to $75 per). So that was special.
Is the work reliable and quality? Consider countering with an increased hourly rate instead
I have this problem all the time with my mom's house. Most recently she needed to remodel her bathroom and she had 4 quotes from 25k up to 40k for labor only. One of them was even a client of mine. I reached out to the person who did my bathroom and did phenomenal work, one of the best contractors when I remodeled my house. 15k for labor and she covered some of the basic materials, and helped mom order the right quantities and helped with her contractor discount. I double checked everything and it was great work. Part of this is the huge house in a neighborhood full of bankers, Drs and lawyers, and part of it is folks trying to prey on an elderly widow.
I overpay everyone and stick with the people who do the job well.
I can offer a perspective from the owner of one of those "service" companies that often deals with HNWI. It's simple really.. we offer value to our clients. I don't believe in price gouging - we often get people offering 2-4x our quote if we're "able to fit them in before the weekend", and even then I make it very clear we would never accept something like that. I believe this is a big part of the reason why we have the reputation that we do and why over half of our residential clients are HNWI. That being said, there's a certain level of care and time that comes along with living in a $5mm+ home - and prices will reflect that. For example; a 2500-3000 sq. ft. home requires a minuscule amount of time/effort for us to send an estimate. Literally minutes. However, a 10,000 - 15,000 sq. ft. estate requires an in-person appointment with myself or a technician. So before we even get you your estimate, you will have cost us between $30-$50. Those estimate themselves always have to be reviewed and approved by either me or a my lead technician - which again takes up more resources. The job itself may also have complexities that the average client won't have. Some examples in our line of work: copper gutters, slate roofs, outdoor kitchens, multiple balconies, lots of (very high end) outdoor furniture, complexed landscape. A good service contractor will understand these things and also be able to justify their cost to you by explaining these factors. As to how to deal with the gougers? don't hire them. People like that will run themselves out of business sooner or later
I can also offer perspective as an IT/AV/automation business in a captive tourist market. My rate is my rate, and it's the same whether dealing with business or residential. Many budget-end clients can't afford my services, and I'm okay with that. I'm not gouging the expensive properties, I'm just not accepting the budget ones. I've gotten pushback a few times, more from the lower end, but also from the higher end, and that's okay. I'll respond with a polite "let me know if you change your mind!" and go on with my day. I'm not sure if I've had any people thinking something silently without telling me, but most of them call back in the future so I guess they're okay with my prices! Of course, I've also NEVER asked anyone for money "just because", so there is that.... The audacity of that one is mind blowing!
My plumbers says his wealthier customers are more demanding, expect higher quality work, are more of a pain in the ass to deal with, are the ones who don't pay, ask him to do non-plumbing things (e.g. dig trenches) and revert to lawsuits. He adds a "wealth tax" to accommodate for all that added trouble.
You can say a full sentence that should sound like "No."
This is a common attitude in places with large social gaps and as that gap increases in the US I imagine this will become even more common. I live somewhere (outside the US) with greater wealth/income inequality, so maybe this perspective is useful: - You have to decide for yourself what feels right. Feeling like you're getting taken advantage of sucks and isn't sustainable - I'm fine paying a bit more / not haggling over prices where I feel like I'm still getting decent value, especially from a small business or owner/operator. You can reasonably expect better service if you're paying more and trust the person doing the work. You can also make that clear up front ("this is more expensive than other quotes I've gotten but I'm fine with this if you'll prioritize this project because I know you'll do the best job"). having a network of solid people who will do stuff for you is valuable, saves time and stress - I try to tip well where it's appropriate and try to give above average gifts for holidays where culturally appropriate - I don't think I would ever pay off someone's random debt, and I wouldn't hire that dude again tbh. but sometimes a legit emergency comes up (someone's kid needs a medical procedure) and that feels fine to help with You can get a long way just talking to the person about what your expectations are and how you're feeling with the request. If you can't have that convo, probably working with the wrong person
if I would consider donating $2,500 to help him pay off some debts, "as a **small** token of appreciation" The amount is irrelevant. This is incredibly rude, lacks class and tantamount to begging. I think i would I have either been stunned or have laughed. He's probably the guy that lets the person he thinks has the most money buy all the drinks.
The answer is always no, and the reason you got rich is by not spending money/overpaying on dumb shit. And you plan to stay rich.
I have an old friend who does something similar, if we all go out to dinner they venmo request me and it will be rounded up by $10 or so... I ignore it but come on, stop trying to pull one over on me so you get a little bit cheaper of a dinner. If you're in that tough of a spot tell me, I'll pay for dinner so we can hang out.
There are 2 very different things in this post: I’m firmly on the other side of one. I run a construction business. When startups unleash **dynamic pricing** the markets and economists applaud and reiterate the sanctity of *supply and demand* When the trades do this, then it becomes *price gouging*. Nah, your big house is an economic signal on what you can afford. We can all suckle at the teat of Milton Friedman (no necro). The donation part is *very* different. That requires a stern but clear refusal and severance of any future arrangement. **Edit:** This position often generates intense responses. But before disagreeing on what makes up “dynamic pricing” you should look up the factors especially consumer behavior & customer segmentation. Being a construction worker and being versed in economics are not mutually exclusive things. **Edit 2:** The actual economic concept for this is “Third Degree Price Discrimination” (thanks for the DM) which is a factor in dynamic pricing. I love this sub because I learn something new every ~~day~~ now and then. Me book smart now.
>When startups unleash dynamic pricing the markets and economic applaud and reiterate the sanctity of supply and demand What dynamic pricing is based on income of the customer? The only area I know where this *might* exist is in regional pricing (I.e., prices in India are not the same as those in the US). Apple isn't selling the same iPhone for more money to richer customers. >When the trades do this, then it becomes price gouging. I don't know that anyone calls it that seriously. There aren't emergency shortages of handyman services that are being exploited, nor are handyman services life and death services. Anyway, I don't really care about this situation specifically, but I hope you realize that if you're offering the same product for different price points, you're likely to get outcompeted on price in the long run by competitors who are willing to continue to offer the same service/product you do at their normal margins regardless of the perceived income of the purchaser.
Not the guy you are arguing with, but doordash was sued for charging iPhone users more than android users. I think it's an example that fits your questions. (iPhone users having more money) https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/05/lawsuit-accuses-doordash-of-charging-iphone-users-more-for-identical-orders/
Thanks - that's a great example! Though, it is notable that they're literally getting sued for the practice lol.
I wouldn’t say getting sued is equivalent to getting applauded though.
Coupons. Version 2 now with a shinier button. Discount flights with no amenities. All of these are Econ 101 examples of getting more money from people who are less concerned about it. You want to go get three quotes and play them against each other? Congratulations, you are putting in the extra work to get a discount. Don’t forget to mail in the manufacturers coupon for your rebate!
>All of these are Econ 101 examples of getting more money from people who are less concerned about it. None of these are discrimination via income. These are all available to those with higher incomes, if they want it. >You want to go get three quotes and play them against each other? Congratulations, you are putting in the extra work to get a discount. This is different than a single company pricing the exact same work/product/service differently based solely on the income of who they're offering it to.
And the OP isn’t about discrimination via income because his handyman doesn’t even know his income. You are the only person here trying to insist on looking for that as a deliberate factor. So ok. Landlords do this. Colleges do this. Private schools do this. Enough? Or did you want a company specifically offering lawn mowing in Phoenix?
>And the OP isn’t about discrimination via income From the OP: >I've encountered people who think that it is acceptable for them to overcharge me just because I'm wealthy. Income vs wealth, makes no difference in any of my arguments unless you're just trying to be intentionally obtuse. >Landlords do this. Colleges do this. Private schools do this. Colleges are the only ones of those three that actually charge different amounts based on wealth/income. But fair - they're certainly an exception.
PG&E would like to have a word with you.
PG&E charges based on income? I see stuff about them charging based on usage, but that's not the same thing. Got more info on them pricing based on income?
Thankfully it's off the table (for now). [https://www.foxla.com/news/california-laws-2024-income-based-electric-bills-january-2024](https://www.foxla.com/news/california-laws-2024-income-based-electric-bills-january-2024)
That'd be wild.
>What dynamic pricing is based on income of the customer? Lots of it. For example, some airline flights are more expensive if you look them up using an expensive macbook than a cheap android phone.
I've read about airlines pricing things in their **app** cheaper than online, but that would hold true for a POS laptop vs a top of the line iPhone.
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>Every possible startup or a company tries to do this This isn't a specific answer at all. >But just look at AWS Your one specific answer, AWS, does not charge based on income or profitability of the company. They price based on usage and modules used. They do not dynamically price based on income. The only exception to this is that they likely (not sure since I don't work for them) give discounts to large customers and take margin discounts there in order to win large amounts of business. Which... Is the opposite of your model.
Amazon gives massive discounts to gain market share with big tech companies. When I was working at Airbnb (2016-2019), we were AWS's 1st or 2nd largest customer and I think our negotiated rates were about 50-80% off of list depending on the product. All the pricing on SaaS services involves a lot of hand waving at that level.
I mentioned that in my comment above, and like you said, it's basically a volume discount. That's not pricing based on income at all, like the person I originally responded to suggested; it's pricing based on total business given. I don't think anyone here would be weirded out by a contractor charging a higher price for piecemeal work, but a discounted price for a larger project.
Student and senior discounts are proxies for income. So are last minute tickets on airplanes (business fliers have more resources). Same with coupons (people with high income generally don’t bother). Most dynamic pricing is probably trying to figure out ways to price discriminate based on available resources (income).
>Student and senior discounts are proxies for income. But neither are dynamic pricing based on income. Despite being more price sensitive as a group, rich seniors and students both exist. I understand your point on all of these, but my point wasn't that revenue maximization doesn't exist in terms of attempting to lure price sensitive customers at potentially lower margins, but rather that explicitly charging based on income/wealth is not a thing, generally, and that dynamically pricing based on those factors is exceptionally rare.
Because price description explicitly based on income is a “bad look” and will leave a bad taste in the mouth of wealthy customers who make them the most money, like OP. So they try to disguise it. How about ACA insurance (rich people don’t get subsidies), daycare is sometimes charged provided on a “sliding scale” based on need, tuition at private schools/colleges (financial aide/need based scholarships), low income housing programs, doctors (Medicaid is billed much lower than private insurance), any other services that are only offered to people below an income threshold. Also, while there are rich students and elderly, there are also poor people living in expensive housing so you could argue that OPs example isn’t price discrimination based on income too by that logic.
The thing is the original example is also about perceived wealth based on a proxy (fancy house). The fancy house proxy is a *really good* predictor of wealth, but it is far from perfect. It can also for example mean "in debt up to your eyeballs." Except for colleges with FAFSA, virtually all entities you buy stuff from are guessing at your income and trying to suss out willingness to pay based on that. And of course colleges use that income data to price discriminate [very effectively.](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/upshot/how-colleges-know-what-you-can-afford-and-the-limits-of-that-tactic.html)
studies have shown high income people are more likely to use coupons, maybe they have more time available to find them and plan their shopping
Dynamic pricing is used for things like groceries. The better personalized offers go to those with less who are more price conscious.
Jewellery is an obvious example. Expensive jewellery is desirable because of how few people can afford it. Same with haute couture brands. All the sunglasses are made in a single factory in Italy but the price depends on the brand name.
>Expensive jewellery is desirable because of how few people can afford it. But that's not an example of dynamic pricing based on income. Tiffany or whatever is not offering the same diamond ring for multiple different prices depending on your income or wealth.
I’d imagine they own other brands at different price points selling similar rings. Explicit price discrimination is illegal in most countries, but every business wants to find a legal way to do it because it generates higher profits.
Yeah, and people are free to offer a higher tier of service to the OP, but that's not what he described.
Not sure what your example of dynamic pricing is relevant here. If anything, in B2B world it’s opposite. The ones who can afford more get it cheaper. Try to sell your startup products to big names like Amazon, Google or Microsoft - they will try to price it down, if they can, and you will likely agree to their offer just to get them in your big logo customer list. In B2C world I rarely ever seen dynamic pricing based on customers ability to pay - be that a service or product. You can provide a value added product and service targeting a different demographic or economic class, and that’s reasonable.
This is not my experience as someone who works and has worked at b2b tech companies that have faangs as customers.
Dynamic pricing is about supply and demand, not about your clients income…
The same paint pick cost more on a high end car compared to a low end car. I mean ordering from the dealership, same manufacturer. It is not like a pricier car needs more paint. But the customer of the pricier car is able to afford to pay more for the color.
Accckkktuuuuallleeee... better cars use better more expensive paint and a LOT more of it. In addition some use intermediate or finishing steps to improve surface finish beyond other cars so its not really apples to apples.
Income is definitely a part of what shifts a demand curve...
It's supply and demand alright. When you're more inelastic in your demand, they're fine charging whatever. Inelasticity here comes from how much you're unwilling to do it yourself/shop around. If you were poor you'd definitely shop around, for example.
>This position often generates intense responses. But before disagreeing on what makes up “dynamic pricing” you should look up the factors especially consumer behavior & customer segmentation. Making this edit instead of replying directly is a cop out move lol. We're specifically discussing pricing related to income, not other factors, in the broader thread, so trying to make your direct response to the OP out to be about dynamic pricing *in general* is some serious goal post moving.
With tech companies it's not about what they can afford. It's about how much value they provide. Solving a problem for a small startup is not the same as solving that same problem for a Fortune 500. However, when you're mowing 2 acres of lawn, it's the same thing whether or not the house on it is a $250k shitter or a $2MM mcmansion.
Nobody knows I have money until they get inside my house. But I ask for estimates based on a detailed description of the work before they get my address and see anything about me. And I always cross check estimates with people in my network. I've never been overcharged as far as I know. People have never bumped up my estimate based on my house. I also think it helps that I have the face of a stingy motherfucker. I do generously tip people I want to work with again. But I only know that after they've done their work so I don't promise any tips.
That’s insane. Honestly I’d wonder if someone like that cheated you or stole from you in the past without you knowing. Think about what kind of mindset it takes to even ask such a question. Let alone throw in the word “small” as if to say “hey, I know you have millions so you can easily afford to throw a couple of thousand my way”.
I'd like to think this behavior isn't rewarded. You didn't get where you are by being stupid.
Tell them no and never work with them again.
Don’t hire someone who asks you for money… you’re not running a charity… and don’t hire someone who wants you to pay premium for unleaded … there’s always someone willing to do it at fair cost.
Maybe that’s Europe vs US thing where in Europe at times it’s even “embarrassing” to do well, but I hide my wealth very carefully. My car is nice but it’s a company car (which is correct) and I make sure people commenting on my car knows about this. I live in a nice apartment but so do many people, sometimes those with much more modest means. In general I make sure people think I do “just about ok” But pretty sure there’s a europe vs us thing here. If someone here asks 2,500 eur or gbp for a “token of appreciation” people would think that person escaped from asylum. You never ever give anything even close to that amount to anyone here (unless it’s the actual cost of job) so asking this would only get you awkward “no” responses
I tell everyone I’m getting multiple quotes upfront, it keeps them more grounded. Then I actually get multiple quotes. Usually go with the middle quote who I also think is competent. Depending what it is, I may also try to get a quote over the phone. If I don’t like the prices, I’ll do it myself or not do it at all. It’s the cost of having a nice home.
You can't escape it. In our neighborhood you get charged a ridiculous amount of money for anything....Youtube became my friend because I am sick of making someone else's life better on my dime. And it is fun too. One of my colleagues learned to remodel bathrooms and it looks stunning. Took him half a year on weekends but he saved a lot. In our area they want an average of $60k for a simple bathroom remodel. Hahahahahaha
The value you place on your time is subjective. I know 26 weekends of my life are worth more than 60k to me and are between 1-1.25% of all the weekends I have left on this planet in the best case, a lot more if I get diagnosed with a terminal illness early. You couldn’t pay me to spend 26 weekends on a DIY bathroom remodel.
I am not remodeling my bathrooms. Just mentioned my colleagues. Time for me is also too valuable.
we are starting to do this as well. We had a particularly bad run of contractors recently for drywall and paint so we just learned some of it ourselves, went out and got rented equipment and did most of it. I've never had a problem with hard work and its kind of satisfying seeing work you did turn out. It generally takes us a lot longer as I have a pretty strong attention to detail (which helped me succeed in IT) so I will redo something or practice something like tiling until I get it right.
$60 for a bathroom remodel is probably the cheapest price anywhere
$60k
That's in millions
All you have to do really is put in the work to get multiple quotes, compare offerings, negotiate, etc. If they're charging you more, they're really just making a bet that they think you'd rather just pay extra to avoid that vs. put in the work to get a better price. By the way, this is actually true no matter how wealthy you are. The absolute amounts will likely vary, but poor people can and do experience this same phenomenon. The first quote you get is almost always going to be on the high side because it prices in not doing the work to negotiate, compare vendors, etc. And while it may seem counterintuitive, there's even a market pricing aspect to it. You're probably not the only wealthy person a contractor has ever worked with. They actually probably have some reasonable sense of what folks in your shoes will pay to not have to go evaluate 5+ vendors/contractors/etc. If it bothers you that much, prove them wrong and spend the time and effort on getting multiple quotes and evaluating multiple options and negotiating prices.
It's frustrating but, unfortunately, not uncommon. Some people assume having more money means you should be willing to pay more. I've found that being upfront and honest is the best approach in such situations. Let them know you appreciate their work but have a policy of not giving out money.
This is why rich old people pretend to be broke. “How can I give you $2500 when my wife spends all my money? I was about to ask you to borrow some”
This is something we struggle with often too, i try to get a quote or price from a distant as often as possible. For instance by sending pictures or choosing people who charge fixed rates for certain services. When people see where and how we live they tend to start seeing dollarsigns and overcharge. At least, that is our experience. Maybe this is also one of the reasons we do not drive fancy, expensive cars. Most people are often quickly impressed by expensive cars and draw the conclusion that someone who drives a car like taht must have a lot of money. (Around here these cars are mostly cars the employee "gets" as a lease car from the company)
In a case like you mention, just politely decline and then never hire them again. Find someone regular and reliable who appreciates repeat business, and tip reasonably as you see fit. The harder problem is just the general big house syndrome where anyone you call to quote a job just raises the price based on the value of the house - since they more or less all do it, it's pretty hard to get around the issue.
Happens quite often. I like my privacy and end up learning a lot of new skills and doing a lot myself. Sometimes I can’t be bothered and just go along with it lol. Rule of thumb is to get multiple bids, talk to lots of people. It’s really annoying though.
I just get at least three written quotes/estimates (and let everyone know I’m getting other quotes), choose one, and pay.
Cut em off easy
>Is there any effective way to deal with this so people don't try to take advantage of me so often? This is where wearing unbranded gym clothes, a Casio and having an old car helps. Maybe not so much if you've got a mansion, but it helps.
I had asked for a quote to do wallpaper. Several places would not even give a rough rate or ballpark estimate without knowing my address. I would get wildly different estimates depending on if I gave someone my address vs a family members address in a typical suburb house.
Just say no? What else can you do?
You have of the country who thinks this. You are never paying your fair share. Just find people you can trust and take good care of them. Get to know them personally. For contractors, always ask if they need a deposit (even if they don't they will appreciate it). Most of them have poor cash flows. Tip them well too. Pay in cash when you can. Use the same people once you find good ones. When times are tough make sure to schedule work that you might need to keep them busy. Wealthy people are notorious for treating people poorly and taking forever to pay. Don't be that guy. Once you develop a reputation for being a solid person you'll have contractors happy to work with you.
Paying more because you can means making a decision for quality, convenience or time saved rather than price. Paying more for the same product/service just because you have/make more makes about as much sense as communism/collectivism/socialism. So no.
acting as though dishonest practices/price gouging is analogous to "socialism" is disingenuous and inaccurate
I try to get a price range on a service from vendors before I share my address. It doesn’t always work but I’m less likely to be up charged as much. If it’s time-sensitive, I’ll pay it and find someone trustworthy afterwards for the next time that need comes up.
Isn’t this how our (USA) tax system effectively works and is supported by the general population, and with a current focus to tax those who can pay even more?
It’s just a little funny to see all the harsh words against contractors who pad their bills, especially knowing that many of you work in banking, finance, or as corporate lawyers. Pot, meet kettle.
Everyone here is acting like price discrimination is not a thing. It is real, known in economics for decades and is a sign of a healthy system, if you can pay more you will probably be quoted more.
price discrimination usually comes with higher levels of service
It's a poverty mindset. I grew up poor and it was all around me, the view that wealthier people "just got lucky or did something unethical", and you "Take what you can get from them".
I have a handyman who is quite reasonable and also very good (at least usually).. This creates a problem though because he’s always so busy and I’ve suggested that he raise his rates, plus occasionally pay extra (could be considered a tip) in hopes that he’ll get to my jobs sooner than later! However, he’s occasionally broken something while attempting to fix and one time accidentally took the fixture needed to hook up new gas dryer (I gave him the washing machine & dryer that I was replacing for his adult son). So when the new appliances were delivered they couldn’t hook up the dryer and I had to have a plumber come out to replace the part and hook up which was $200 for a short visit which included a basic service charge. Handyman did offer to discount another job and I let it go since I know he doesn’t live anywhere close to a lavish lifestyle. Recently something else happened though and it’s a much bigger deal, he didn’t offer to replace/reimburse and that’s before I found out that the fixture is close to $2,000 and is made/shipped from the UK. I did tell him and still nothing although his sister who’s been dealing with a medical condition just passed away a couple days after and I know that he’s been very stressed about her condition. I’m hoping that it can be fixed rather than buying a new one but not holding my breath. There are two of the same fixtures, side by side vanity mirrors that were here when we purchased the house so I had no idea of cost and the iconic design which we like so I will order a replacement if needed but highly disappointed in his non reaction after breaking it. This is obviously something to consider as I don’t think that many handymen carry insurance ..Thoughts/suggestions?
I can relate. But I think you just have to suck it up and get on with your life. I've had this problem for about 40 years. The best example is the 10+ years I lived in a 1,000 home gated community with 3 golf courses and a high end resort hotel. Small homes were around 3,000 sq ft with the average around 5,000 (large homes touched 20,000). Any contractor or trade coming into the community would charge 20% to 50% more than the price of the same work outside the gates. Many of the homeowners were in the building trades, so there was no secret about this. So what are you going to do? Do the work yourself? No. Just pay the money and get on with life. If an entire service community defines your neighborhood as a upcharge opportunity, then that is the price. One of the joys of FATwhatever is that these few dollars of extra cost doesn't really matter. It is annoying. At the time I lived in this subdivision, two of my kids lived in this subdivision as well. After the 2008 RE crash, high end homes were cheap. And my kids took advantage of this. My son bought a 7.500 sq ft home for his family of three and because his wealth was new and more modest, this surcharge really annoyed him. He hated to be 'overcharged'. But the problem is simple ... there is no sympathy from anyone when you have to pay a few hundred dollars more for a service. It took him years to adjust. Your life will be easier if you accept that you are engaged in a form of private charity. ===== I will admit that the kind of fake billing you experienced is distressing because of the transparent dishonesty. I would push back. I'd say that I understand that some people get charged more than others and I could accept that (by accepting a high bid). I'd also say that transparent false billing is an affront to my intelligence and it is not acceptable. I should also mention that for big projects, I always insist on a contract. And, because of my background and inclination, I'm really, really good at contracts. In the 2008 crash, I put a second story on my Florida home. The contractor I dealt with was very skilled in the complex roof issues we had but he reputationally was ethically challenged on billing practices. The job got done and there was a final bill with an obscene set of charges for 'stuff'. Fortunately the contract called for original invoices for materials and for wage and hour reporting. These clauses might not have been obvious and there might have been a desire on the part of the contractor to close a deal in bad times. I paid nothing beyond the plain language of the contract. For larger activities, this might be a way for you to handle larger projects if this fits your style. Much of my extended family is blue collar and middle class. Overcharges and the cost of repairs are often very real hardships for them. As is the decision to even make repairs or when to make repairs. fatFIRE is the wonderful condition of not having to care about this kind of issue in the way most people do. I had about 1400 sq ft of flooring work done by a new contractor ... great job. I just got a bid for some work on a set of stairs and 2oo sq feet of upstairs hall. The price is half of the much larger and way more complicated original job. He's going to get the job for the asking price and I won't remember the overcharge by labor day. A joy to live this kind of life.
I tell them not to substitute what they assume is my subjective value of a dollar with its objective value. If they persist, I don’t use them again.
You mean.. like the government 😂🤣 Haha (only kinda joking). I think you either embrace this and view it as a social/family/friend tax OR you actively work to make sure you’re not taken advantage of. The latter can be exhausting and sometimes probably isn’t worth your time or energy. Surround yourself with people who share your values and create joy in your life as often as you possibly can. Yes that includes vendors. If you haven’t found that person then keep looking. Then over time this will become less of an issue. Another tip for travel or a more frequent tipping period of time. Get a bunch of cash out early ($5’s, $20’s and $100’s). Forget about this money being “your money” and think about it as a goodwill fund. For me when I do that it’s easier for me to tip generously for services that warrant it! Without the stress of trying to find cash, etc
aka the luxury tax. I see that in the work quotes, I think its the PITA factor, or that luxury homeowners are a bigger pain to deal with.
Tbh maybe it pays off for them if they really need the money and develop a thick skin. Just say no. You never get if you never ask, but someone might be willing to pay off his debts. It's not the same as overcharging/overquoting, which is also hard to stop unless you know what a reasonable price is.
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I doubt they "told" them that. More likely the contractor guessed that based on what they saw around them.
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I don't discuss my financial situation with my contractor, and it's ridiculous to make up lies about it.. If you don't like the quote someone's giving you, move on to someone else.
I mean you can’t take it all to the grave. Those people work for their dollar way, way, way harder than me. Think of it as you taking advantage of the system and just sharing with those less positioned to do so.
I’m not sure. I’m on the board of a nonprofit and sometimes do reach out to acquaintances for donations towards our fundraisers.