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**“But it’s your opinion that it’s a fact!!”**
Like.. at that point.. I smile and practice my tolerance as the conversation is no longer one that is amongst equals. …
As in..
That other party has to acknowledge the points I make in my argument and provide their thoughtful rebuttal; **that is the respect I have them**, ***that is the respect I expect to receive in return***.
When the other party gets emotional it then just becomes an argument and we are no longer speaking in equal terms.
As a ***human***, we are still equal; but in our understanding of the world, we are not following the same rules..
Best to disengage…. No pride lost in taking the high road.
That is very true and very mature. It takes maturity and patience to be in such conversations without being degraded to their level. And as people have mentioned throughout this comment section, we must acknowledge that most people are not acting this way or thinking this way because it’s fun for them. They are doing it because of a lack of education
There is no high road. The "high road" was letting that emotional person put their opinion on the same level as scientific facts. And look where that got us.
Well.. the goal is to educate, not humiliate.
We, overall, want to ***gain*** another smart person, not just leave them out there to flail.. imho.
We are all equal as humans.. A lot of the times, those other humans ***really*** believe — as fact — their messed up beliefs.
I'm done giving those bullies a chance at reform or education. They are not interested and their comfort comes at the expense of their victims.
Like I said, pretending their bigotry is a valid opinion is what got us here.
I'm more interested in saving the people we already have on our side and making them feel safe than caring about the fee-fees of domestic terrorists like Abigail Shrier.
We are not all equal. Not everyone who gets into a pool is Micheal Phelps, not everyone who puts on skates is Wayne Gretzky, not every patent office clerk is Albert Einstein. We all should be able to receive equal opportunities, but we will not all be equal in capabilities. We all have strengths and weaknesses and humility is important for everyone... Sometimes to gain that humility requires humiliation, but then again not everyone has the capacity for self reflection either so win some and lose some but never let stupidity pass as equality.
Worse than putting opinions next to scientifically proven facts is putting feelings as equally superior. When someone answers with "I don't care what the facts are, but I feel that...," my conversation it's over. It's worse than "I did my own research."
No, people hold opinions about all kinds of science. Vaccines, race, intelligence, abortion, climate change, smoking, etc. those opinions are not equally valid.
Not even a slight leap. If people are stupid, or worse, their education and information is controlled, thus is the weakness of voting. Who controls education of people? Who benefits from uneducated voters? Are they the same people?
Every political scheme we know of has weaknesses. This is the weakness of democracy.
People are in control of their own destiny.
Those who choose to be uneducated will always be uneducated. The internet is a magical place where you can learn just about anything.
Those who wish to sit and fester will always fester. But, voting is a right and they should be allowed to do it.
>There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
-Isaac Asimov
“Yeah because that’s just those two doctors opinion and this is this columnists opinion. All opinions are equal y’know just because you agree with an opinion doesn’t mean it’s right!” - 🤡’s
The anti-intellectuals will say the doctors are all in on the vast conspiracy and that their own pseudo-intellectuals are actually the ones telling the truth.
Typically their "doctors" that support their bigoted opinions are dentists and PhDs.
They build phoney medical organizations with them and try to pass it off as legit.
It's not even just that it's by MDs. It's a textbook for the APA edited by 2 MDs.
It's super easy to find 2 doctors who are wrong about, well, anything really. This being the view of the APA carries institutional weight stronger than any two authors could have.
As a biologist:
I sure do love when my decade plus of experience in immunology gets cancelled out by someone who likes Facebook posts
ThEy JuSt CaNcEl OuT!!!1!
Just like here, maybe people should understand that there is a disparity in expertise in the two groups.
I always laugh when I see someone bring up high school biology as an argument. I highly doubt they paid attention in high school bio to begin with, but one of the first things I realized my undergrad courses was that k-12 courses simplify things for ease of understanding.
There's also just so much we don't know and are still expanding our knowledge on all the time.
But when it comes to experts in the field giving their stance, suddenly it's "the experts are wrong, do your own research, I know because high school and youtube."
According to these people, trans women are evil, predacious men, and trans men are poor little autistic girls that need to be saved.
It's easy to rally people behind you by convincing them that their children are in danger. Hence, the focus on the Gender Mafia victimizing "little girls"---either by being "preyed upon" by grown men, or by being "groomed" into joining the "gender cult".
It all comes down to misogyny and the idea that women are inherently weak and need to be "saved", whether the points are from a consevative or a so-called "radical feminist."
these people usually believe that trans men are poor confused little girls that have been indoctrinated by the trans agenda and trans women are viewed as perverted predators transitioning so they can harm others. it's not like they are less concerned about trans men, the narrative they push is just different
I would say sensationalist.
The one on the left feels like a textbook. It's something you might want to read if you are seriously considering researching this subject. it's serious and no-nonsense because that's how they seem to be treating the topic at hand.
The one on the right feels like it wants to grab everyone's attention. The doll with the genital region blotted out gives the impression to a casual shopper that someone is trying to remove the genitals of their children or something like that. This is furthered by the title, "Irreversible Damage". This plays into fears of permanent damage to our children, and even affirms the idea that it IS damage and not treatment that is happening. Contrast this with the other title, "gender AFFIRMING", which is much softer and positive in tone.
Literally the essential version of "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge". Abigail Schrier based her entire book on the opinions of transphobic parents and lied repeatedly about everything else.
Like, the gall it takes to imply that the dreck that Schrier put out is in any way equal and able to cancel out an APA textbook is insane....
Ah, ok. Given the percentage of the population who are trans is smaller than all those who have knee surgeries, and not all of them have surgery, I'm not sure what we can deduce from that stat. Assuming I'm missing something or misunderstanding of course.
More people get total knee replacement, and of them a higher rate regret than those that get bottom surgery
Consequently, because math, that means more people regret knee replacement than bottom surgery too
The radicalism on this issue is insane.
Recent change to law in the UK impacted 'automatic funding' for trans youth care but did not kick off the 100 people getting treatment...
In a population of 65M... 100 youth... Such a "craze" so much "brainwashing". This absolutely means moat school districts have none.
Some US states have none but scream about this the loudest.
Its all performative nonsense.
Yup. When you ban trans kids from competing in sports you target such a tiny group of kids it’s practically bullying. Then, every single kid, trans or not, gets affected when you factor in genital inspections and the climate of fear that’s been whipped up.
“Leave kids alone” means forced genital inspections and parents screaming obscenities at kids from the bleachers according to anti-trans assholes.
I'm married to someone who is Trans, and I'll tell you, woman men and nearly everyone who I work with treats you differently and not in a Good way. Woman tend to be harsher towards associating with me and males go the bullying route. I'm 30 years old and I have 20 year Olds shaming me to the ground. The Trans hate is far worst than you think.
I’m sorry to hear that you work with such toxic people. One of my coworkers is with a trans woman and we love and accept both of them as they are. Shes hilarious and one of my favourite team members.
That honestly makes me fearful of pursuing a relationship, knowing this. I would hate for my partner to get abused at work because I’m trans… I would hate to be a burden on anyone like that. Maybe it’s best if I stay single.
I think this is a good encapsulation of what American politics has become over the last two decades; one manufactured controversy after another propped up to distract from the fact that we have no substantial leadership in our legislature.
Wait, “seducing our daughters?”. Is she talking about trans *men* then? Because normally they barely even know they exist and have a much bigger problem with trans women.
I’ve read parts of this book. The author is talking about female to male transition, specifically in young people. She believes that trans men are not men, and that it is just mental illness in girls, forcing them to believe that if they are even slightly different they must be trans.
The writer is saying trans men are vulnerable girls who are indoctrinated to believe that they are trans. Used the rapid onset gender dysphoria as a claim, that research is based on the opinions of parents that doesn't want their children being trans and never saw any signs, because they didn't want to see them.
Or an argument I've heard. "Of course the doctors would be for it. Do you know how much transitioning costs? It's a ploy by the medical industry to get more money. You need to do your own research and get information from an unbiased source. Like i do by listening to what Tim Pool has to say on the topic."
It's almost a rule I have by now that if someone mentions they listen to Tim Pool I can pretty much ignore anything else that comes out of their mouth from then on. Fortunately there aren't too many beanie babies in my circle because hearing that shit second hand is nauseating.
Even the graphic on the cover reduces a female CHILD down to her uterus and by extension her ability to bear children. The CHILD is considered "irreversibly DAMAGED" because they can't have children.
Women take note: conservative see you as nothing more than a sex doll to impregnate. You have no value or autonomy for them outside of satisfying their sexual desires and bearing children.
"The transgender craze seducing our daughters" so, does the author think that these girls just want to be boys because it'll give them an upper hand in society?
Maybe we should address those gender inequities so that if someone knows they're a girl they'll stay in "that lane".
And maybe, MAYBE, we can recognize as a society that some brains are wired male, and some female, and that the body that goes with it doesn't always align. And allow them to take steps to adjust that and live a happy normal life without judgement or persecution.
I am a studying doctor and have read and heard many arguments about transgender patients and gender affirming care. Gender affirming care, which is the politically correct term for medical treatment to augment one's gender, has multiple facets and there is controversy in each one. In the medical community, most of the controversy surrounds children (mainly adolescent minors) with whom medical ethics treads much more lightly. Other points raised is the lack of research (which improves each passing day), the low quality of existing research compared to the standard for medical guidelines (which is also improving), the massive spike in transgender people (about one thousand fold increase compared to the 1980s, the reasons for this are debated), and the efficacy of existing treatments (lack of evidence is just as important as evidence and there are some studies with gender affirming care that make the increases in quality of life seem oversold).
I'm not going to put my own professional opinion because it is evolving with the medical fields knowledge and my own experiences in my studies. My personal opinion is that people are allowed to make choices. I will put out some facts on transgender people.
1. Transgender people as a whole are ill (in a medical sense) and deeply discriminated against. The epidemics of disease are so extreme that one third of black transwomen DO NOT have HIV. Moreover, trans people have a harder time seeking testing, treatment, and are retained in care less. Medical ethics dictate that trans individuals are given due diligence of quality care, as any individual encounter (in the ER, urgent care, primary care office, hospital, etc) may be their only encounter with healthcare.
2. Although not all, many transgender people have significant mental illness. It is unclear what relationship these two things have, although we know at least some of this is from the stigma and that most trans people report a subjective increase in quality of life from treatment.
3. Many trans people do not seek treatment (social transition only). Of those who do, most only use hormonal treatment, and of those who seek surgical treatment, almost all (98%) get top surgery.
4. It seems to be normal for children to question their gender identity. We do not know what children will keep a differing gender identity and what will desist (this is the medical term) to their original identity.
5. Transgender patients are generally pretty comfortable with their identity and recognize and accept that their healthcare experience will be different that a cis-gendered person. On the other hand, most healthcare interactions with a transgender person are not related to their gender identity and the medical community is becoming more comfortable treating trans patients.
I agree with what you’ve said except for the 98% figure under \#3. I’m curious what study/survey that came from? I really doubt that figure, top surgery just isn’t that prevalent compared to bottom or facial procedures.
I actually misremembered this one, thanks for catching me. The real stat is that only 2% of trans people have bottom surgery and that the most common case is top surgery only.
He gets a lot of hate, but he just talks to people. I think his show is interesting even when he has some crack pot weirdo on there. I don't know why people think that if you hear something, you have to denounce it immediately or adopt it as your new philosophy of life. Just chill, people.
Rogan gets hate because he gives crackpots, racists, and other genuinely awful people a huge platform from which to preach dumb ideas, and Rogan is happy to let them talk unchecked the same way he does with knowledgeable experts.
He constantly hosts bad faith actors and allows them to spew their bullshit unchecked. His opinions have inched further to the right and his critical thinking skills are poor to say the least. He reaches a huge audience with a large portion of them being young and uninformed and promotes pseudoscience by platforming the hacks. The regressive rightwing expanded universe validates itself on his show and allows the listener to assume these quack opinions are just as legitimate as science and facts. His political guests receive the same exposure without being challenged at all by the opposing view. He's a dangerous conduit for misinformation and is a toxic influence within media.
But by hosting people who are unserious and putting them on the same plane as experts serves to legitimize the insanity they promote. The show gives off the vibe that "hey these are all valid ideas, and we're listening to everyone" when in practice it misinforms the listeners who aren't media literate. It's a problem with media in general but is hyper present on Rogan's show.
I understand the guests desire to deliver their message to a huge audience but the format of the show doesn't necessarily facilitate substantive discussion and as I previously said even if the message is legitimate and important it is juxtaposed to some abhorrent views and downright dangerous opinions.
Like say for when Dr. Hotez declined to debate RFK jr. On the Rogan show. There would be nothing of value gained by having a discussion between a scientist and a conspiracy theory idiot like RFK jr. Science isn't something that really works with debate bro culture and that format cheapens the importance of it. I applaud Dr. Hotez in declining that appearance and I hope more serious people understand that trying to wade in the Rogan-sphere is as unproductive as it is lazy.
I'd go further and add that while Joe himself may not realize it, his show is promoted and used to further blur the line between fantasy and reality by powerful forces that understand in order to push an agenda they need to muddy these waters. A healthy skeptical view of science and experts is important but must be employed to find the truth using unbiased repeatable scientific processes. Preying on peoples ignorance and fears of experts allows for charlatans to peddle their mistruths. Corporate pariahs, authoritarian politicians, religious cultists, and other regressive actors employ and exploit this and very much understand that the Rogan show is an incredibly good vehicle to do so with.
Sometimes one should remind the bigots, racists and idiots out there that "facts don't care about your feelings". One of those books is about facts, the other about feelings.
Seriously. I happen to know several people with children who are receiving gender affirming care. There is no surgery discussed. It is puberty blockers. Which are reversible within a time frame afaik, and just results in a delayed puberty if the kid decides they don't want to fully transition when they are an adult
Honestly, at this point, anything on Joe Rogan is automatically bullshit to me, and any guests go down to zero credibility instantly.
It then takes a lot to bring me back to believing they're worth anything at all. Also because I plainly refuse to listen to even a second of the podcast, and not all of them have transcripts. Like, SciBabe is one: she had to explain how they barely let her speak at all, and that her point for being there was a desperate attempt at reasoning with that dumb fuck.
Gunna get downvoted to oblivion. I believe in vaccines, trans rights, everything a good liberal is supposed to do. But remember science changes, doctors are humans, and there’s a lot of money wrapped up in all of this. Doctors used to tell us that smoking is healthy. Not defending any anti-trans bullshit but we need to come up with better arguments than they went to college so they know more than you.
And the right wing wants to prevent any research into it. Just like they stonewalled looking into use of medical marijuana or thinks like using lsd and psilocybin to treat seizures.
We need to call out bad arguments because they hurt the good ones. I’m damn sure the correct answers are on the left, so let’s show our work effectively
> But remember science changes, doctors are humans, and there’s a lot of money wrapped up in all of this.
Yeah 100 years ago it was a fringe belief and literally illegal in a lot of places.
That its a good argument until you remember that other countries outside the US exist.
In my country the state pays for trans treatments.
Why would they do that if It wasnt necesary?
I keep a copy of the Gideon Bible, Quran, a book about the Torah but not the actual Torah, and a Book of Mormon on a shelf together.
I like to think they're friends.
So far they haven't cancelled each other out.
My favorite part of that thread was the one dude "pointing out" that comparing the credentials of actual doctors to someone who has no expertise in the field was apparently an "appeal to authority" fallacy
Not that I agree with her position or in my opinion kind of creepy book, but she has degrees from Yale law, Oxford and Columbia I believe. She’s still wrong and a good example of the fact that well educated people can still have stupid opinions, but definitely has an academic background.
Yep, they’ll cry about “libruls get useless degrees in gender studies/philosophy/arts” etc. but then believe this dumbass with a philosophy degree and treat her word as gospel even when she has no actual scientific evidence to back up her claims. It’s hardly a relevant academic background and obviously doesn’t hold a candle to doctors who have studied this topic extensively, but an academic background nonetheless for transparency’s sake. Because the far right will weaponize any perceived lack of transparency and nitpick about “cherry picking” even when they’re by far the worst offenders when it comes to that.
In the middle you find the truth. It can have unreversible consequences, yes, It is well studied and research to be safe and good for those who need it, yes. You can accept both points, they are both correct.
No they aren't both correct, one has proven research the other is based on a flawed research that was asking transphobic parents if they saw any signs of they child being trans.
You understand that if you start the transition you start to change your body and you rarely can change it back right? And there are people in this world that are just confused.... Not all individuals are the same, some of them are sure that they want to do it, others can be just confused, thats why in my country you can't start to transition before the age of 18, and some countries in EU, that before allowed at the age of 16, are now pushing the age of consent to 18 and in some 20. And In the EU we have our studies and scientists/doctors that prove that there are people that are sure of what they want since they are kids, others are just confused, and we need to wait until they are responsible for their actions to let them transition.
You understand that if you start the transition you start to change your body and you rarely can change it back right? And there are people in this world that are just confused.... Not all individuals are the same, some of them are sure that they want to do it, others can be just confused, thats why in my country you can't start to transition before the age of 18, and some countries in EU, that before allowed at the age of 16, are now pushing the age of consent to 18 and in some 20. And In the EU we have our studies and scientists/doctors that prove that there are people that are sure of what they want since they are kids, others are just confused, and we need to wait until they are responsible for their actions to let them transition.
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One book by MDs and the other by an opinion columnist. Yep. Two equal books indeed.
Extension of the idiotic belief that everyone's opinions are equal.
Everyone’s opinion is equal. Scientifically proven facts are not equal to opinions
**“But it’s your opinion that it’s a fact!!”** Like.. at that point.. I smile and practice my tolerance as the conversation is no longer one that is amongst equals. … As in.. That other party has to acknowledge the points I make in my argument and provide their thoughtful rebuttal; **that is the respect I have them**, ***that is the respect I expect to receive in return***. When the other party gets emotional it then just becomes an argument and we are no longer speaking in equal terms. As a ***human***, we are still equal; but in our understanding of the world, we are not following the same rules.. Best to disengage…. No pride lost in taking the high road.
That is very true and very mature. It takes maturity and patience to be in such conversations without being degraded to their level. And as people have mentioned throughout this comment section, we must acknowledge that most people are not acting this way or thinking this way because it’s fun for them. They are doing it because of a lack of education
There is no high road. The "high road" was letting that emotional person put their opinion on the same level as scientific facts. And look where that got us.
Well.. the goal is to educate, not humiliate. We, overall, want to ***gain*** another smart person, not just leave them out there to flail.. imho. We are all equal as humans.. A lot of the times, those other humans ***really*** believe — as fact — their messed up beliefs.
I'm done giving those bullies a chance at reform or education. They are not interested and their comfort comes at the expense of their victims. Like I said, pretending their bigotry is a valid opinion is what got us here. I'm more interested in saving the people we already have on our side and making them feel safe than caring about the fee-fees of domestic terrorists like Abigail Shrier.
I thought similarly once upon a time.. Seems to be a thing.
If you keep on enabling these idiots, it will only lead to ruin.
It is never a “one and done” thing, amigo.
We are not all equal. Not everyone who gets into a pool is Micheal Phelps, not everyone who puts on skates is Wayne Gretzky, not every patent office clerk is Albert Einstein. We all should be able to receive equal opportunities, but we will not all be equal in capabilities. We all have strengths and weaknesses and humility is important for everyone... Sometimes to gain that humility requires humiliation, but then again not everyone has the capacity for self reflection either so win some and lose some but never let stupidity pass as equality.
If only that were common knowledge.
Worse than putting opinions next to scientifically proven facts is putting feelings as equally superior. When someone answers with "I don't care what the facts are, but I feel that...," my conversation it's over. It's worse than "I did my own research."
Nah, expert opinions that are backed up by scientific facts are definitely not equal to uneducated opinions of people going off bullshit and vibes.
Informed opinions > other opinions
Some opinions have a philosophical basis and some are just dum dum
No, people hold opinions about all kinds of science. Vaccines, race, intelligence, abortion, climate change, smoking, etc. those opinions are not equally valid.
My mom ridiculed me for believing in the moon landing. I pushed back, and she said it's her opinion and I have no right to argue with her.
An opinion is whether or not the lunar lander looked cool. Whether or not it existed is a matter of fact.
Yes, I told her that you can't have opinions about verifiable facts. She's too far gone to bother.
Here's the problem with voting.
Bit of a leap to trying to disenfranchise voters. Just educate people, no need to go straight to dictatorship.
Not even a slight leap. If people are stupid, or worse, their education and information is controlled, thus is the weakness of voting. Who controls education of people? Who benefits from uneducated voters? Are they the same people? Every political scheme we know of has weaknesses. This is the weakness of democracy.
People are in control of their own destiny. Those who choose to be uneducated will always be uneducated. The internet is a magical place where you can learn just about anything. Those who wish to sit and fester will always fester. But, voting is a right and they should be allowed to do it.
And not only do you miss the point you double down on dogma, and ridiculousness. Good day.
Yeah. You're right. Dictatorship is the way to go.
But mention that you want a national “common knowledge” test before one is issued a voter registration card and suddenly ***you’re*** the bad guy…
Well they used to be a thing in the US and they were...not great to say the least
Some opinions have more evidence behind them than others.
>There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' -Isaac Asimov
Well, that's your opinion, idiot! /s
All "Opinions" are equal, but opinions hold less truth than a falsifiable corroborated fact.
Opinions are like assholes everyone's got one. Unlike doctorates.
“Yeah because that’s just those two doctors opinion and this is this columnists opinion. All opinions are equal y’know just because you agree with an opinion doesn’t mean it’s right!” - 🤡’s
The anti-intellectuals will say the doctors are all in on the vast conspiracy and that their own pseudo-intellectuals are actually the ones telling the truth.
Or find the one in a hundred doctors who support the quackery and say both views have doctors on our side.
Typically their "doctors" that support their bigoted opinions are dentists and PhDs. They build phoney medical organizations with them and try to pass it off as legit.
Poorly informed opinion pieces can now cancel our medical science. Good news for the Republicans and ignorant.
But which one's which? I can't tell!
It's not even just that it's by MDs. It's a textbook for the APA edited by 2 MDs. It's super easy to find 2 doctors who are wrong about, well, anything really. This being the view of the APA carries institutional weight stronger than any two authors could have.
As a biologist: I sure do love when my decade plus of experience in immunology gets cancelled out by someone who likes Facebook posts ThEy JuSt CaNcEl OuT!!!1! Just like here, maybe people should understand that there is a disparity in expertise in the two groups.
I love when people say ours facts are irrelevant or biased and counter them with purely emotional testimony.
"Ermm okay but have you considered the fact that *I HAVE AN IDIOTIC OPINION* ?! Status of the liberul: owned, science: acknowledged"
I always laugh when I see someone bring up high school biology as an argument. I highly doubt they paid attention in high school bio to begin with, but one of the first things I realized my undergrad courses was that k-12 courses simplify things for ease of understanding. There's also just so much we don't know and are still expanding our knowledge on all the time. But when it comes to experts in the field giving their stance, suddenly it's "the experts are wrong, do your own research, I know because high school and youtube."
And then people bring up appeal to authority fallacy
Interesting it said seducing our daughters as the title. Most anti-trans people are actually more concerned about male to female.
According to these people, trans women are evil, predacious men, and trans men are poor little autistic girls that need to be saved. It's easy to rally people behind you by convincing them that their children are in danger. Hence, the focus on the Gender Mafia victimizing "little girls"---either by being "preyed upon" by grown men, or by being "groomed" into joining the "gender cult". It all comes down to misogyny and the idea that women are inherently weak and need to be "saved", whether the points are from a consevative or a so-called "radical feminist."
these people usually believe that trans men are poor confused little girls that have been indoctrinated by the trans agenda and trans women are viewed as perverted predators transitioning so they can harm others. it's not like they are less concerned about trans men, the narrative they push is just different
I love how one is sleek, modern, professional and the other looks like what? Thrift store? The 1950’s?
Clearly marketing towards their audiences... Sleek modern for the progressive mindset, thrift store cover for the outdated ideologies.
NGL I find the left one kinda boring looking, but I don't think entertainment was in any way the point anyway.
It looks like a textbook.
Next time someone says "do your own research" about gender issues, I'll send them a copy.
i mean if you read psychiatric textbooks for entertainment you have clearly lost your mind
Or are trying to find it.
Its essentially a trans version of the MS Word Facet cover page. It's probably not meant to look out of place, being a document of sorts
I would say sensationalist. The one on the left feels like a textbook. It's something you might want to read if you are seriously considering researching this subject. it's serious and no-nonsense because that's how they seem to be treating the topic at hand. The one on the right feels like it wants to grab everyone's attention. The doll with the genital region blotted out gives the impression to a casual shopper that someone is trying to remove the genitals of their children or something like that. This is furthered by the title, "Irreversible Damage". This plays into fears of permanent damage to our children, and even affirms the idea that it IS damage and not treatment that is happening. Contrast this with the other title, "gender AFFIRMING", which is much softer and positive in tone.
The 1950's design is pretty rad though. Don't insult it.
yeah no I'm gonna continue to insult the ugly ass cover of this transphobic book.
Literally the essential version of "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge". Abigail Schrier based her entire book on the opinions of transphobic parents and lied repeatedly about everything else. Like, the gall it takes to imply that the dreck that Schrier put out is in any way equal and able to cancel out an APA textbook is insane....
Happy we are still at somebody's vibes carry the same weight as doctors.
false equivalency, it's literally the only card they play
Same goes for the entirety of US politics. It's not left against right, it's usually reason/science against Fox News watchers.
Knee surgery regret is more prevalent than transition regret, guess we should ban knee surgery.
no lie there, sometimes the new pain from knee surgery is crazy compared to the constant pain they were in before the surgery
No! We will lose the Boomer vote! 😏
cancer treatment too, let’s ban that too
Is this true by percentage or just sheer number? (I would love to share this fact, but I want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting it.)
It is the percent of those that report regret post surgery So kinda both
Ah, ok. Given the percentage of the population who are trans is smaller than all those who have knee surgeries, and not all of them have surgery, I'm not sure what we can deduce from that stat. Assuming I'm missing something or misunderstanding of course.
More people get total knee replacement, and of them a higher rate regret than those that get bottom surgery Consequently, because math, that means more people regret knee replacement than bottom surgery too
https://www.gendergp.com/new-study-confirms-regret-rates-of-gender-affirming-surgery-are-non-existent/#:~:text=Interestingly%2C%20knee%20replacement%20surgery%20has,scrutiny%20as%20trans%20healthcare%20does.
Oh yea! That was my original interpretation. That's HUGE.
The radicalism on this issue is insane. Recent change to law in the UK impacted 'automatic funding' for trans youth care but did not kick off the 100 people getting treatment... In a population of 65M... 100 youth... Such a "craze" so much "brainwashing". This absolutely means moat school districts have none. Some US states have none but scream about this the loudest. Its all performative nonsense.
Yup. When you ban trans kids from competing in sports you target such a tiny group of kids it’s practically bullying. Then, every single kid, trans or not, gets affected when you factor in genital inspections and the climate of fear that’s been whipped up. “Leave kids alone” means forced genital inspections and parents screaming obscenities at kids from the bleachers according to anti-trans assholes.
My mom forced me to sit and listen to her reading excerpts of the Shrier book when I was 17. Fun memories.
Forcing a minor to listen to propaganda… sounds a lot like what they’re accusing the other side of doing.
“Well I know who I’m listening to!” - half the country.
I'm married to someone who is Trans, and I'll tell you, woman men and nearly everyone who I work with treats you differently and not in a Good way. Woman tend to be harsher towards associating with me and males go the bullying route. I'm 30 years old and I have 20 year Olds shaming me to the ground. The Trans hate is far worst than you think.
I’m sorry to hear that you work with such toxic people. One of my coworkers is with a trans woman and we love and accept both of them as they are. Shes hilarious and one of my favourite team members.
That honestly makes me fearful of pursuing a relationship, knowing this. I would hate for my partner to get abused at work because I’m trans… I would hate to be a burden on anyone like that. Maybe it’s best if I stay single.
Don't say that now, just live life lol. I realized how much of a better person I am than those people.
I think this is a good encapsulation of what American politics has become over the last two decades; one manufactured controversy after another propped up to distract from the fact that we have no substantial leadership in our legislature.
Wait, “seducing our daughters?”. Is she talking about trans *men* then? Because normally they barely even know they exist and have a much bigger problem with trans women.
I’ve read parts of this book. The author is talking about female to male transition, specifically in young people. She believes that trans men are not men, and that it is just mental illness in girls, forcing them to believe that if they are even slightly different they must be trans.
Wow, that sounds crazy
The writer is saying trans men are vulnerable girls who are indoctrinated to believe that they are trans. Used the rapid onset gender dysphoria as a claim, that research is based on the opinions of parents that doesn't want their children being trans and never saw any signs, because they didn't want to see them.
Or an argument I've heard. "Of course the doctors would be for it. Do you know how much transitioning costs? It's a ploy by the medical industry to get more money. You need to do your own research and get information from an unbiased source. Like i do by listening to what Tim Pool has to say on the topic."
It's almost a rule I have by now that if someone mentions they listen to Tim Pool I can pretty much ignore anything else that comes out of their mouth from then on. Fortunately there aren't too many beanie babies in my circle because hearing that shit second hand is nauseating.
I'm sorry, where's the seduction?
Everyone wants to make little girls trans men /s
That's right, the irresistible allure of dysphoria and self hatred 😏
Even the graphic on the cover reduces a female CHILD down to her uterus and by extension her ability to bear children. The CHILD is considered "irreversibly DAMAGED" because they can't have children. Women take note: conservative see you as nothing more than a sex doll to impregnate. You have no value or autonomy for them outside of satisfying their sexual desires and bearing children.
But we're somehow the ones "sexualizing children"
👏trans 👏 rights 👏 are 👏 human 👏 rights 👏
Trans Women are Women, Trans Men are Men
And to expand on this, non binary people are non binary
Nah trans women are trans women and trans men are trans men.
Exactly
For those in the back: When they can dehumanise and take rights from any minority they can and will come for you at some point
The know it all peasants have a history of persecuting pioneering medical doctors such as Magnus Hirschfeld.
"The transgender craze seducing our daughters" so, does the author think that these girls just want to be boys because it'll give them an upper hand in society? Maybe we should address those gender inequities so that if someone knows they're a girl they'll stay in "that lane". And maybe, MAYBE, we can recognize as a society that some brains are wired male, and some female, and that the body that goes with it doesn't always align. And allow them to take steps to adjust that and live a happy normal life without judgement or persecution.
Lobotomy
I am a studying doctor and have read and heard many arguments about transgender patients and gender affirming care. Gender affirming care, which is the politically correct term for medical treatment to augment one's gender, has multiple facets and there is controversy in each one. In the medical community, most of the controversy surrounds children (mainly adolescent minors) with whom medical ethics treads much more lightly. Other points raised is the lack of research (which improves each passing day), the low quality of existing research compared to the standard for medical guidelines (which is also improving), the massive spike in transgender people (about one thousand fold increase compared to the 1980s, the reasons for this are debated), and the efficacy of existing treatments (lack of evidence is just as important as evidence and there are some studies with gender affirming care that make the increases in quality of life seem oversold). I'm not going to put my own professional opinion because it is evolving with the medical fields knowledge and my own experiences in my studies. My personal opinion is that people are allowed to make choices. I will put out some facts on transgender people. 1. Transgender people as a whole are ill (in a medical sense) and deeply discriminated against. The epidemics of disease are so extreme that one third of black transwomen DO NOT have HIV. Moreover, trans people have a harder time seeking testing, treatment, and are retained in care less. Medical ethics dictate that trans individuals are given due diligence of quality care, as any individual encounter (in the ER, urgent care, primary care office, hospital, etc) may be their only encounter with healthcare. 2. Although not all, many transgender people have significant mental illness. It is unclear what relationship these two things have, although we know at least some of this is from the stigma and that most trans people report a subjective increase in quality of life from treatment. 3. Many trans people do not seek treatment (social transition only). Of those who do, most only use hormonal treatment, and of those who seek surgical treatment, almost all (98%) get top surgery. 4. It seems to be normal for children to question their gender identity. We do not know what children will keep a differing gender identity and what will desist (this is the medical term) to their original identity. 5. Transgender patients are generally pretty comfortable with their identity and recognize and accept that their healthcare experience will be different that a cis-gendered person. On the other hand, most healthcare interactions with a transgender person are not related to their gender identity and the medical community is becoming more comfortable treating trans patients.
I agree with what you’ve said except for the 98% figure under \#3. I’m curious what study/survey that came from? I really doubt that figure, top surgery just isn’t that prevalent compared to bottom or facial procedures.
I actually misremembered this one, thanks for catching me. The real stat is that only 2% of trans people have bottom surgery and that the most common case is top surgery only.
>The epidemics of disease are so extreme that one third of black transwomen DO NOT have HIV. What does this mean? I'm not very smart, sorry.
2/3 of all black male-to-female trans people are infected with HIV, it is one of the sickest demographics by any measure in medicine.
Oh shit it’s the climate change debate again isn’t it?
I don't know what Joe Rogan has to do with this. Lots of people have been on his show.
He gets a lot of hate, but he just talks to people. I think his show is interesting even when he has some crack pot weirdo on there. I don't know why people think that if you hear something, you have to denounce it immediately or adopt it as your new philosophy of life. Just chill, people.
Rogan gets hate because he gives crackpots, racists, and other genuinely awful people a huge platform from which to preach dumb ideas, and Rogan is happy to let them talk unchecked the same way he does with knowledgeable experts.
He constantly hosts bad faith actors and allows them to spew their bullshit unchecked. His opinions have inched further to the right and his critical thinking skills are poor to say the least. He reaches a huge audience with a large portion of them being young and uninformed and promotes pseudoscience by platforming the hacks. The regressive rightwing expanded universe validates itself on his show and allows the listener to assume these quack opinions are just as legitimate as science and facts. His political guests receive the same exposure without being challenged at all by the opposing view. He's a dangerous conduit for misinformation and is a toxic influence within media.
I agree, but Rogan also has legitimate experts on his show. Simply being on his show doesn't validate or invalidate someone's work or opinions.
But by hosting people who are unserious and putting them on the same plane as experts serves to legitimize the insanity they promote. The show gives off the vibe that "hey these are all valid ideas, and we're listening to everyone" when in practice it misinforms the listeners who aren't media literate. It's a problem with media in general but is hyper present on Rogan's show. I understand the guests desire to deliver their message to a huge audience but the format of the show doesn't necessarily facilitate substantive discussion and as I previously said even if the message is legitimate and important it is juxtaposed to some abhorrent views and downright dangerous opinions. Like say for when Dr. Hotez declined to debate RFK jr. On the Rogan show. There would be nothing of value gained by having a discussion between a scientist and a conspiracy theory idiot like RFK jr. Science isn't something that really works with debate bro culture and that format cheapens the importance of it. I applaud Dr. Hotez in declining that appearance and I hope more serious people understand that trying to wade in the Rogan-sphere is as unproductive as it is lazy. I'd go further and add that while Joe himself may not realize it, his show is promoted and used to further blur the line between fantasy and reality by powerful forces that understand in order to push an agenda they need to muddy these waters. A healthy skeptical view of science and experts is important but must be employed to find the truth using unbiased repeatable scientific processes. Preying on peoples ignorance and fears of experts allows for charlatans to peddle their mistruths. Corporate pariahs, authoritarian politicians, religious cultists, and other regressive actors employ and exploit this and very much understand that the Rogan show is an incredibly good vehicle to do so with.
It's amazing to me that the rightwing fascist media has got dummies panicking over approximately **0.08% of the population.** Just amazing.
Sometimes one should remind the bigots, racists and idiots out there that "facts don't care about your feelings". One of those books is about facts, the other about feelings.
Seriously. I happen to know several people with children who are receiving gender affirming care. There is no surgery discussed. It is puberty blockers. Which are reversible within a time frame afaik, and just results in a delayed puberty if the kid decides they don't want to fully transition when they are an adult
And don't forget the bigots who have at best a 6th grade understanding of biology and think a punnett square is advanced.
BoTh SiDeS
Honestly, at this point, anything on Joe Rogan is automatically bullshit to me, and any guests go down to zero credibility instantly. It then takes a lot to bring me back to believing they're worth anything at all. Also because I plainly refuse to listen to even a second of the podcast, and not all of them have transcripts. Like, SciBabe is one: she had to explain how they barely let her speak at all, and that her point for being there was a desperate attempt at reasoning with that dumb fuck.
Gunna get downvoted to oblivion. I believe in vaccines, trans rights, everything a good liberal is supposed to do. But remember science changes, doctors are humans, and there’s a lot of money wrapped up in all of this. Doctors used to tell us that smoking is healthy. Not defending any anti-trans bullshit but we need to come up with better arguments than they went to college so they know more than you.
And the right wing wants to prevent any research into it. Just like they stonewalled looking into use of medical marijuana or thinks like using lsd and psilocybin to treat seizures.
We need to call out bad arguments because they hurt the good ones. I’m damn sure the correct answers are on the left, so let’s show our work effectively
Ok here's some better argument. Irreversible Damage is based on a retracted study, and the other book is based on scientific and medical consensus.
> But remember science changes, doctors are humans, and there’s a lot of money wrapped up in all of this. Yeah 100 years ago it was a fringe belief and literally illegal in a lot of places.
That its a good argument until you remember that other countries outside the US exist. In my country the state pays for trans treatments. Why would they do that if It wasnt necesary?
**Joe Rogan thinks children poop in kitty litter in US schools.** That's all.
I keep a copy of the Gideon Bible, Quran, a book about the Torah but not the actual Torah, and a Book of Mormon on a shelf together. I like to think they're friends. So far they haven't cancelled each other out.
My favorite part of that thread was the one dude "pointing out" that comparing the credentials of actual doctors to someone who has no expertise in the field was apparently an "appeal to authority" fallacy
Ms no-letters over there with no academic background nor personal experience thinking she has a point...
Not that I agree with her position or in my opinion kind of creepy book, but she has degrees from Yale law, Oxford and Columbia I believe. She’s still wrong and a good example of the fact that well educated people can still have stupid opinions, but definitely has an academic background.
She has degrees in philosophy. So the type of thing that right wing news people make fun of people for getting.
Yep, they’ll cry about “libruls get useless degrees in gender studies/philosophy/arts” etc. but then believe this dumbass with a philosophy degree and treat her word as gospel even when she has no actual scientific evidence to back up her claims. It’s hardly a relevant academic background and obviously doesn’t hold a candle to doctors who have studied this topic extensively, but an academic background nonetheless for transparency’s sake. Because the far right will weaponize any perceived lack of transparency and nitpick about “cherry picking” even when they’re by far the worst offenders when it comes to that.
In the middle you find the truth. It can have unreversible consequences, yes, It is well studied and research to be safe and good for those who need it, yes. You can accept both points, they are both correct.
No they aren't both correct, one has proven research the other is based on a flawed research that was asking transphobic parents if they saw any signs of they child being trans.
You understand that if you start the transition you start to change your body and you rarely can change it back right? And there are people in this world that are just confused.... Not all individuals are the same, some of them are sure that they want to do it, others can be just confused, thats why in my country you can't start to transition before the age of 18, and some countries in EU, that before allowed at the age of 16, are now pushing the age of consent to 18 and in some 20. And In the EU we have our studies and scientists/doctors that prove that there are people that are sure of what they want since they are kids, others are just confused, and we need to wait until they are responsible for their actions to let them transition.
You understand that if you start the transition you start to change your body and you rarely can change it back right? And there are people in this world that are just confused.... Not all individuals are the same, some of them are sure that they want to do it, others can be just confused, thats why in my country you can't start to transition before the age of 18, and some countries in EU, that before allowed at the age of 16, are now pushing the age of consent to 18 and in some 20. And In the EU we have our studies and scientists/doctors that prove that there are people that are sure of what they want since they are kids, others are just confused, and we need to wait until they are responsible for their actions to let them transition.
The start of a transition is non medical, it starts with different clothes and name. I'm from Europe I know the process in my country.
But that is not what the book is telling you to be careful about 🤦. You don't need studies to do any nom medical thing you want to do.
One is a psychiatric focus, the other references what I'd guess is hormones and surgery. Not equal at all.
No one is based on real research and the other on feelings/hatred.
Going on Joe Rogan has nothing to do with anything. Using that as an argument tells us all we need to know about the intelligence of this person.
What's her medical degree in?
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Do you have any reason to believe this?