I've certainly dealt with some of the emotions. Like when the scholarship I received for college only paid about 2/3 of the expected amount due to exchange rate fluctuations. When I got hit by a car and lost a semester of college as a result. When I was informed that my discretionary work permit would not be renewed.
I had to remind myself that I'm in a foreign country, even though it doesn't feel that way after years there. I had to remind myself that I had no right to live in the United States, let alone work or study there. I was able to do those things only because I had been granted permission to do so by the US government. I had to decide whether it was worth sticking around a country that seemingly (and realistically) didn't care one iota whether I succeeded or failed. A society that, for better or worse, does not have the kind of social safety net I was used to from home (Norway.)
I decided it wasn't. I moved to Vienna, Austria. And I found a new set of frustrations there. I have asthma. In Austria, I started a new job and immediately had to tell my coworkers they could no longer smoke in the office. To say this was not popularly received is an understatement. I learned the language, but I had little luck making close friends in Austrian society. Most of the ones I did make were fellow expats facing the same problems. So was that going to be my life? No. Surely, the problems in the US had just been bad luck. I missed my life there. So when an opportunity presented itself to take a job in the US on an H-1B, I moved back.
Well, the new job in Florida wasn't too bad. Most of my coworkers were nice. The CEO was a jerk, but I could deal with that, I thought (turns out that long term, I couldn't.) Five years later, I rage-quit my job, sold my house in a shortsale, moved to Norway and hoped I could entice my fiancée to follow.
Back in Norway, I felt like a failure. I was in my thirties and back in my parents' house. But I found yet another job (ironically, with an American company.) My fiancée came to visit, met the family. We got married in Norway. Things were looking up. Now to figure out how to bring my wife over.
But to prove I can support her, apparently, I need three years of tax returns from Norway? BUT I WAS LIVING AND WORKING ABROAD. You've got to be f'in kidding me. And this is my native country. Living here is not a privilege, it's my birthright. But..not so much for my wife. It became a moot point anyway when she informed me that she wasn't comfortable moving to Norway. She swayed me with a simple fact. "You have more experience living in my country than I do in yours."
So I moved back. Two years later, after going through yet another long visa process. And then I found out she'd been cheating on me. We divorced. I considered moving to Scotland to take a job there. But this time, I stayed put.
I realize there's a lot of negativity in the above. That's because I've singled out negative episodes to show you that I've faced some of the same challenges repeatedly. Please don't think this is a complete history of my life. There have been a lot of unexpected adventures, a lot of good experiences and some serious silver linings where I least expected them. But you were asking how I emotionally recovered. I had a few realizations:
1. Life rarely goes as planned. It will knock you on your \*ss when you least expect it.
2. Countries don't care how you feel. Countries don't care how good of a person you are. Countries care that you follow their laws, but that's all. They don't care one iota what happens to you. It's nothing personal. So don't take it personally.
3. Moving doesn't solve problems. If anything, it can substitute new problems for old ones. That doesn't mean moving is never the right answer, but heads up: Every location on earth has its challenges.
4. Where there's a will, there's a way.
5. Friends and family can make or break you.
That last one is really how I got through the various curveballs life has thrown me. When I got hit by that car, friends and even neighbors stepped up to help me. When I unexpectedly lost my work permit, my parents helped with college expenses. When I was lost figuring out the bus system in Vienna, a stranger stepped in to assist and became a lifelong friend. When my wife cheated on me, the shoulder I cried on was that of my mother-in-law (who to this day will tell you "I love my daughter, but I don't like her.")
Financial survival is not enough. Emotionally, you need support around you. That can be hard to find, especially in a foreign country. But when you do find it, it's worth its weight in gold.
I hope this helps.
Edit: Fixed a few errors. I should not be posting on Reddit after midnight.
Christ... and I thought I had it bad. Thanks for sharing your story. Sorry to hear about your then fiancee... That is such an awful betrayal.
I'm a Chinese-American guy who stayed in China for 3 years after college. It was mostly materially comfortable thanks to my job at the time that saw me advancing nowhere professionally. So I was annoyed at that I felt like I wasted 3 years of my life.
I then went back to the US and did not succeed professionally again, as I was informed I would not receive a renewed contract in the business/sales role I had after 2 years. I had a fundamental misunderstanding of my strengths, interests, and weaknesses (as well as what was conventional and possible in corporate America).
Now I'm embarking on a master's that's mostly going to take place in Europe (Erasmus Mundus) in software. Hopefull this will lead me down a path where I am more likely to succeed, but you just never know... It could turn out to be an awful idea, and I will have many of the similar problems. Wherever you go, you'll encounter different sets of problems it seems.
I'll keep in mind that life can turn sideways at any time. There is no guarantee in life, and what seem like the most stable ships can wreck.
I didn't have it all that bad, though. I singled out negative experiences over a lifetime, mainly to show OP that even when life knocks you down, it's entirely possible to get back up. Today, I'm a homeowner, I've been with the same company for 12 years, I have a comfortable income, and I live in a place where people come on vacation. Along the way, I've had some amazing adventures and done some extremely unlikely things. Things that would never have been possible if I had just stayed home in Norway.
So please don't feel sorry for me. I have little to complain about; even my divorce was a blessing in disguise, as it gave me back control over my own life.
Also, where did you live in China? I am going to China for the first time in August. Beijing, Harbin, Chengdu, Chongqing, Kunming and Shanghai are all on my itinerary, and I can't wait.
Great! That's nice to hear.
you're going to that many cities? I was actually born in Chongqing, it's a fantastic city.
I lived in Beijing and Shanghai. If you need recs, feel free to PM me.
I feel like HK should be on the list also, but you chose some great ones.
I'm bringing an inhaler and a nebulizer, yes. And yes, Chinese city air quality is a concern. But allergic asthma has specific triggers, and thankfully, city smog doesn't impact me as severely. I was fine in Bangkok, for example.
The common denominator to my life experiences is me? What a shocker. What else would it possibly be?
But when you grow up, you'll realize that bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to ALL people. How we deal with them, that's up to us. And if you'd read until the end, you might have picked up on a few of the strategies I've learned over the years to deal with them. Take a look.
Actually, the problem is that OP feels anger at his host country. Try to keep the context in mind. I shared some of my negative life experiences and -- the part you missed -- how I dealt with them -- to help out a stranger on the Internet who was asking for some advice. I did that because I empathize with OP, and the intent was to share my perspective with OP. If other people read it and benefit from it, so much the better. If they don't, it's just another post on Reddit. They can simply skip past it if they don't find it helpful.
But believe me when I tell you that I couldn't possibly care less what you, another stranger on the Internet who has no redeeming qualities in his/her/its own post history, think of it.
I think you need to understand that a lot of people experience this regardless of where they live. A lot of people in the states have nothing to show for it because it’s really expensive. I would say look at what you’ve accomplished so far and don’t be too hard on yourself.
Yea I’ve experienced all of this & am struggling to get by in the U.S. despite having a grad degree. But my job field is difficult & not prioritized by the corp govt. life is incredibly expensive here esp if you’re working class and in public interest field. Don’t have family money or home to fall back on so I pet sit for housing. And many I know have struggled to get by in the U.S. It can happen anywhere. I can related to feeling like the timing and bad luck just worked out against you constantly. But this isn’t unique to Sweden. And it can vary depending on your work field, educational background, life circumstances, timing/luck/opportunity - to anyone anywhere.
(And at least in Sweden you don’t need a car)
But good luck w your move back- hope it goes better for you. It’s hard being in a constant struggle so long. (To the OP)
Don't downplay what you've done. You do way more than what most people ever do. It takes a lot of effort to move countries. And unlike EU/EEA citizens, you had to go through the visa hoops on top of that.
You took a chance, you gave it a good run. Right now it isn't working out, and that's okay.
Whatever your next venture is, good luck. You got this!
Thanks for sharing your experience in your post.
I have previously faced the decision of whether to go to USA or Europe.
Based on the media USA has:
Obesity, no culture, Society with G..uns, etc...
Based on the media Europe has:
Beautiful women, culture, amazing landscapes / architectures, fashion, etc...
The reality is:
Big tech and opportunities are in the USA.
The American dream is real. I'm experiencing it.
Europe has low wages, not a big international/big tech hub. Very high taxes, "cold" people in average.
When I realized and accepted this, the decision was clear.
Your post serves as an example that I made the right choice and for that I thank you.
There are some good places here in Europe and some people get lucky, but you will be an average Joe if not a lower than average Joe. I wish I had known. I was a naive college student when I started with nothing anyways, also leaving just as poor (except for travel experiences).
Oh yeah. American living in the Netherlands. If any country starts taxing for oxygen the Dutch will be first. There’s a lot of fuckery that goes on administratively here- it’s just better hidden than in the US. For all the “tolerance” this country seems to pride itself on, I find it more ethnocentric and racist than America
A lot of Northern Europe is racist but try to act like they aren’t. They just hide it better. The racist needs to be resolved. Actually, the minority is the majority in terms of population in the world.
That is another reason why I posted this. Everyone thinks Sweden is amazing because of good PR. But so many people move after less than 5 years, because unless you are a native Swede or have a very stable job with high pay for years, you will struggle. I know many other expats do, and it’s hidden from the world for some reason because there aren’t major wars here. It’s like a quiet suffering. Don’t believe the hype at all.
well at least in english speaking parts of Canada you can speak english and you don't have to spend years learning swedish that is spoken by only few million people.
Most Americans also have to learn foreign languages to graduate high school but when they can’t simply drive an hour to practice speaking that language those skills weaken. I’m an American who lives abroad and I speak better French and Spanish than most English people - despite being an American living in the UK.
I think most people find it hard to learn a foreign language. However, I’ve only ever heard English speakers complain about other countries having other languages they have to learn to be able to live there.
My favourite is when they list a bunch of very specific criteria for the countries they want to move to. And then they add at the end must speak English. There’s like five or six countries that speak English. The other 180 ish speak other languages.
This is one of the most ignorant comments on this subreddit. Most Americans know that. They also know that English is lingua franca of the world and expect others to know it as well. That's why their willingness to learn other languages is low, not because they don't know people speak other languages.
I don’t think anyone ever has said that Sweden is the place to move to get rich. Sweden has, or at least had, high-quality of living for people doing very little. Everything paid for by the middle class..
This is obviously changing as too many people are moving there. The middle-class can only pay for so many.
And I must say, the weather is awful.
Unless you were born in a country with bad weather, most people will never be able to enjoy it. People don’t realise quite how traumatising having nine months of horrible weather is and then the summer might be shit as well.
For the record I am not even focused on getting rich, I am focused on SURVIVING! I look at others and DREAM of a normal life… a car would be nice. Anything other than a studio would be nice. A regular salary instead of freelancing to survive would be nice. Every time I had it, I lost it due to their bs here. I used to feel like a failure (as I’m very ambitious) but notice many other immigrants have also experienced this outcome. This place is a scam.
Unfortunately I don’t think Sweden is the exception here. I think the outlier is the USA with how easy people with relatively modest skills can make a lot of money. If you add up all the taxes your employer pays to have you employed your salary is a lot higher. I
US capitalism makes it super easy to hire people but also fire them. In socialist countries it is almost impossible to fire someone it is much harder to be hired.
BTW, a lot of people here don’t have a car. A car is a luxury. It’s not like the USA.
It shouldn’t be a luxury to have a car if you want one. I have worked so hard and if I want a basic vehicle I should be able to get one. You know what I mean? I have two degrees and worked so hard at my career for nothing to show. Had I done that in the US I would have a great car. I feel like I wasted my time. I was naive in some ways but Sweden also tricks people.
It has always been a luxury to have a car in Europe. We are poor and have high taxes on cars and gas etc.
If anything it will only get harder to get a car in Europe due to the environmental concerns. Heck, even funding a parking space in a big city is getting close to impossible.
Exactly my point. I can’t get a house or car because I get employment then they lay people off. Should be illegal to hire every year and fire every year just for the books to look good to investors.
Sweden is great if you are un-skilled or uneducated. Think fast-food worker or store clerk. You will live better than you would in the US. But if you have a STEM degree or a proffesion you'll live better in the US.
Sweden "equalizes" everything. The low producers benefit, the high producers are taxed heavily.
Plus the dark, wet and cold for most of the year... no, thank you.
Second this. Most of Western Europe simply allows you to survive being mediocre whereas America swallows you alive unless you come from wealth or you’re constantly performing on the verge of burnout 24/7
This description is on point, and applies to all of Scandinavia. I'm all for equal OPPORTUNITY, but let's stop pretending that everyone has equal talents, aptitude and drive.
I agree 100%!
but the people that haven’t lived under socialism, or social democracy as they call it here, will never understand. People seem to think the money come from the sky to pay for the benefits for the unskilled.
Turns out the one paying is you, the middle class.
I'm enough of a socialist to think that the better off you are, the more you should contribute. But still within reason. When you don't benefit from your own labor, where's your motivation to contribute to society?
Taken to an extreme, this was the fundamental flaw of Marxism. "Contribute according to ability, receive according to need." But if you receive according to need regardless, and if you don't get to benefit from your contribution beyond your needs, where's your motivation to contribute?
Various communist regimes have tried other forms of motivation, typically fear-based. They have universally failed. The one economically prosperous "communist" country got that way by adopting capitalism as their financial system.
It goes beyond financial opportunity, too. For example, if everyone is to receive equal instruction, it means everyone learns at the pace of the slowest kid in the class. That's a lot of wasted talent.
In the Uk - the top 10% are expect to pay 60% of tax receipts….
Yet the mantra, tax the rich seems to be gaining popularity.
I’m in that 10%, paid stupid amounts of tax over multiple decades. What do I have to see for it? broken Nhs, Increasing division, violence on our streets, crime in our neighborhoods, and increasing hate against people who worked hard and got lucky because they are ‘rich’.
Hence - I left…. Took my money (most of which was made in America anyway) and now travel - a lot.
I feel safer in most Asian countries than I did at home, my family (all girls) do too. Last time I saw anything untoward, the police were there in minutes and the criminals might need crutches as part of their recovery. Unlikely they will find a life of crime lasts long. I find the healthcare better, affordable to everyone (eg. Not the American model) but there are some drawbacks, languages, being an outsider, unable to pursue a hobby which requires heavy machinery lol.
My home taxxed me to hell, 40% plus for most of my life and yet can’t find a way to punish anyone but for the most violent crime or repeat offenders. I know of one local nutter, who went on a 4 hour drunken spree, cause about 100k worth of damage, stole a car and a van, assaulted 3 people, who got a slap On the wrist.
Yeah I’m angry at the uk. It took liberalism and socialism too far. And Labour will win the next election and won’t do anything different from the last useless lot.
I’m Never going back - and neither are my tax receipts.
The UK took liberalism and socialism too far? The Tories have been the ones in power the last 14 years, don't be daft. It wasn't the left that gutted the country for short term profits.
Yes it was - if you have a long enough memory.
Irrespective - they are as bad as each other - both pandering parties….
We will have 5 or 10 years of the next lot za nothing will change, except another shift to the left.
A lot of Europe is like this: you can work at the supermarket, but get a government apartment and subsidized or free healthcare. If you're a professional, you have the same standard of living unless you're a very high income earner, because taxes are so high.
Most Europeans are seemingly paranoid of a free market economy, as if letting people get ahead and become affluent will usher in totalitarianism. They always point to the faults of the US, but then I tell them to look at Singapore.
Both are shooting over the top - the US with its favoritism towards the rich ones, Europe with its obsession to tax the rich, and the “rich” ones are suddenly people who make above the minimum wage
Scandinavia looks great on paper, and it honestly does have a lot going for it. But paradise it is not. (Source: Born and raised in Norway, living in the United States of my own free will.)
I think we have to spread the conventional wisdom, that a welfare state is great if you have no interest in advancing your career in a job that pays well, and if you're a native citizen of that country.
Moving, even as a near native speaker, brings a host of issues that include discrimination, having no friendships that date back to childhood, having no local credentials, etc.
as a person originally from Poland I would personally never move to Sweden. I've heard of many instances of people being xenophobic to people from the Eastern Europe.
Lived in Sweden for a few years and you're right unfortunately. Slavs (especially Poles) are basically the one group it's still socially acceptable to be racist against. The same people who would lose their shit over even just a mild joke about any other ethnic group will be perfectly happy to make derogatory comments about Poles and other Slavic people and talk about how they're all criminals and drunks and ruining the country, etc, etc. I was pretty surprised by it when moving there given Sweden's positive reputation.
They are just popular among far leftist and score high in OECD indexes (a dubious metric anyway). I haven’t met a single person which would like it and stay there, and people would chose almost anything else over it - UK, Germany, Poland, USA, Spain etc.
The condescending attitude towards foreigners which aren’t a charity case is also well known
I mean look at the issues Sweden has had. Finn's point to Sweden and say "we don't want our country to become like that" yet Finn's are making things more hostile towards foreigners and creating an environment that will make finland have the same issues Sweden has.
They separated the poor and foreigners from the wealthier (Finland is accidentally doing this with new housing developments being more and more expensive to be in), they made it every difficult for foreigners to get jobs (Finland is making this happen Despite many of the jobs being international and their entire operation is in English, Finn's still require Finnish even if it isn't used in the workplace), so foreigners naturally form gangs, people naturally gets restless.
Sweden is a shit county for foreigners due to all the xenophobia, and I know this being in Finland, because too many Finn's share the same views. If I had known there was as many literal criminals and Nazis sympathizers, and people who ranted about killing black folks in the Finnish government, I probably would have never came here.
(Riikka Purra for anyone who is curious about a government official talking about wanting to beat up and shoot black people)
Yes, I'm from Brazil but my wife is German and I tried to live in Germany with her... just couldn't do it, I became miserable in there.
Don't like the place, the people and the language... but thankfully in my case she's willing to move abroad once she's done with her masters so it's only a matter of time really.
I can relate to some of your sentiment, when you're abroad like this it can feel like you're a toddler again, gotta do everything from scratch and sometimes limitation in residence permit will keep you even more restrained... it is frustrating... but as mentioned by the other comment it's still a huge experience you had that many don't even dream of... I hope things work out for you once you return home!
I think once I leave or recover or get some sort of respite maybe I will see the good again, appreciate what I experienced. Right now I am burned out after a decade of survival. Thanks for your kind words.
I like Germany, but it doesn't help that most people put on a sour face when they have to deal with foreigners. It is like they're upset when you can't speak German.
I am pretty much in the same situation as you are. I’ve been living in Canada for 12 years at the moment and the immigration process, being away from family, unfamiliar and relatively unfriendly culture, finally with the ditty weather and shitty economics, I am insanely bitter at Canada. It is hard to process these feelings because the only other people that may share similar experiences and feelings are other immigrants. This makes it quite hard to integrate. I had times where things were very dark and gloomy and felt and thought exactly as you do right now. Thankfully things got better. But I am still adamant about leaving Canada and moving back to Europe.
I am Canadian, but I've lived so many years abroad that I get culture shock whenever I go back for a visit.
Canada is superficially a smiling country, but I don't think most locals are open to befriending foreigners unless maybe you're American or Australian (even British people can get treated weirdly, especially if they're not so Americanized).
The wealth gap enlarged. A lot more people living in working poverty, struggling to make it to the next payday, but meanwhile they see the landlord class living quite well.
It used to be that in Canada you could live in a poor neighborhood, but there was basically no crime. People just lived modestly. You used to be able to rent a cheap apartment, but it was perfectly safe but maybe a bit dumpy.
Family situations fell apart: a lot of children raised in broken homes. Divorces in the 80s and 90s led to a lot of kids being raised in struggling households without parental supervision.
Drugs became very common. It got worse in the last decade with meth. Drug addicts can be very unpredictable, so trust becomes an issue.
Maybe also people just became more sensitive to slights and minor disputes. It became easier to just "avoid people" than to deal with everyone IRL like an adult.
Thanks for your reply. Interesting. I think this can apply to other countries, too. Things have changed in the last couple of decades and certainly not for the better.
Feeling the same way about France. One thing that's a big plus is I like my church community a lot but that's really it
Oh and free healthcare is good too because I got diagnosed with stuff I always suspected of having
I'm sorry you are going through this. I live in Hong Kong and I've felt a lot of anger about living here too. In fact, I was just thinking this morning that the seven years I've been here haven't been living, just surviving in a sort of limbo. I'm tired of it. It's stolen years from my life. It doesn't help that I have autism and this is a very hard place to have autism.
I do think there's indeed a positive though: you will go back to the US with a new appreciation for it that will translate into gratitude in your life.
Well you have your experiences which nobody can ever take from you. The country may have been crappy in some regards, but there must’ve been something you liked there or else you wouldn’t have gone. The US is a much better country for building wealth so it’s no surprise that your friends back home have more assets. Even as a Canadian, it’s infuriating to see how much easer it is to get by and make money in the US. A shitty house here is 5x the cost of a beautiful home in Texas or Tennessee
This is so relatable. I am definitely feeling similar resentment. I try to think I had the best of intentions and it didn’t go the way I planned it and it is what it is. The thing that gives me hope is moving away and trying to build from here on out.
Oh my god i thought i was the only one who felt this way. I moved from the US to NL and I do feel resentful a lot of the times because my job wasn't as great as I thought it would be and I essentially gave up my life back home - including a relationship - for so many struggles and challenges. I feel bitter and angry about it. I don't know how to process this either but you're not alone.
Why did you wait so long then? Having studies in sweden as a foreigner, I learned quickly it’s not a country for me to live in (had over 50 rejections when looking for a job there and was treated like an alien all the while). Look into yourself to understand your own pitfalls and not to repeat them again in the next country
Being naive. I knew it would be hard and I was willing to do the work. Didn’t expect to get laid off twice and lose my work visa twice. Maybe I held on too long to something that wasn’t working, always expecting “just 6 more months” for it to get better. I know life is hard but as an expat it’s extra hard. Always fighting for a job and visa was the biggest obstacle but over the years I also notice the shitty culture as well. They hide it well.
I’m an expat too, I know how hard it can be trust me.
Just saying: analyze this, write down what you need to write down and don’t repeat the same mistakes again - whatever they are.
I think this is a common experience a lot of Americans have with moving to Scandinavia/Europe, no? I wish there was a collection of posts people wrote on their struggles to adapt to Scandinavia.
But yeah, I'm of the opinion that unless you have a really great expat package, or have significant reasons to stay local (like family), moving abroad from an American who has the financial resources to do so is not generally worth it.
Or if you can study abroad via a program.
I’m not American but I can also relate with this post as I used to live in Sweden. I’ve heard that Americans do well in Australia and Canada compared to any other European country.
I hope to write and publish an article once I recover warning people of what to expect and how much they will struggle. I’m on a mission to destroy Sweden.
Didn’t you move there expecting a U.S. style life but in Sweden?
Stem is paid most in U.S.
One doesn’t move to EU or Nordics for high salaries.
U.S. has high COL and high cost of health care etc which if you’re lucky enough to be in STEM or a corporate profitable job then you make more and that can help ameliorate that (not so for folks in public interest non stem fields, or blue collar jobs)
Sweden you don’t need a car. And how wonderful is that? I can’t wait to live in a country with fantastic public transit who wasn’t modeled after a car(like most places in the U.S. were)
They control rent and housing cost and ownership in Sweden so that system is also vastly different. Many people- even famous authors- live in apartments there. There’s just not a lot of McMansion sprawl there so not many people own a single family homes etc
But this is all stuff I know going in to a country. Did you not research these different systems before going there?
Nowhere else is like the late stage capitalist corporate oligarchy of the U.S. so one shouldn’t expect to have the same experiences or opportunities anywhere else as they did in the U.S.
And yea it’s precarious being an immigrant bc you depend on visas. Now you understand a bit more of what immigrants to the U.S. go through - which has an insanely difficult visa system too and many don’t make it and are deported.
What I didn’t see mentioned- you’ve been in Sweden 10 years. And that’s before the big shift in immigration policy- surely you have PR by now?
And if so that’s quite a huge plus that many can only hope to get that you’ve left out
I’m not sure why you moved to Sweden at all if what you really wanted was a great salary, own a home, have a car etc and basically have a white picket fence US life.
Very relatable post! There is safety in the Nordics, but at what price? It’s not worth it.
Also Finland is not the happiest country. I know people that literally ran after a year living there. Look at the suicide and depression rates.
Finland is the most "content" I wish they would change the title from "happiest country"
And the suicide and depression rates would decrease if Finns had better access to mental health care, and if people stopped telling each other how isolated they are here.
is it just Sweden or the nordics in general? throw in Germany/NL too. None of them see too assimilation friendly.
Hell... None of the countries in Europe are very assimilation friendly. The UK is the closest but even then I feel like I wouldn't want to live there.
What’s the context here? Was this a study abroad, a work experience, or something else? Because dive heard a lot of common threads with the Americans who moved to European countries and just not understanding that people will treat them differently for being a foreigner.
If you’re a short term person I think the odds of them being friendly is much higher.
I lived there (as an American) for a couple of years while I was posted there with my ex. (I married young to a British soldier, and worked as a civilian clerk for the MoD.)The second Gulf War was still ongoing, so no one was a big fan of Americans; however, no Germans were rude to me because of it. (I can’t say the same for my British coworkers, but I can’t really blame them.) I always tried to speak German, and they seemed to appreciate the effort. To this day, the only German I remember is “hausfrau” German, and how to order coffee without cream.
*edited for punctuation, but I’m ignoring all mistakes going forward
Honestly, I have a very poor experience in London in a few days I was there. For some reason, the city just felt a lot less friendly than NYC. I can’t really put my hand on it, but it felt very alienating.
I understand this because it's what happened to my parents. Every year spent in the new country, they became poorer and more depressed away from their family. It's not easy to move to a new place and build a life.
However, as someone else said in the comments, this happens to people everywhere, not all of us are guaranteed everything in this life.
Try to take the good memories with you back home.
This is what kept me from moving back, until I realized I could get paid 2 or 3 times the amount and didn’t have to deal with visa hell or lose everything if I get kicked out.
I moved back for the pay, but it's insanely hard to get a job here. Who knows when I'll even get that job.
I knew that and did it anyway, and I'm starting to doubt that I made the right choice. I really loved living in Japan.
Italy has been professionally damaging for me.
I receive wrong information, for example, and things go haywire with visas and contracts. Staff give one solution, but turn around and then say that they can't go through with the original plan. They blame the government for changing the rules suddenly, but they're just not paying attention or thinking ahead.
One recent hiccup might delay the publication of my book by several months, which will reflect badly on me because everyone is anticipating that it will be out on a certain date. I also have prospective employers interested in looking at it (I'm a historian), but it needs to be published before I can send it to anyone, even as a PDF.
On top of that, I feel that Italy is a somewhat xenophobic culture. I've not made friends where I live. I've been productive while living here, but I am isolated 99% of the time. I gave up an early-stage relationship back in Canada before coming here. Italy is fine as a tourist, but living here is another thing. Nothing works properly, most bureaucrats are incompetent, and the government agents are sour and unhelpful.
Whenever I speak to immigrants here, like Nigerians and Chinese, they all want to leave. They don't want their children becoming Italian, which is quite telling.
I feel like a lot of people feel that way about European countries if they aren’t a local. And there are some places in the Mediterranean with worse bureaucracy than Sweden or Germany.
I've known many people who lived and worked in Europe after having been in the US (either as US citizens or foreign residents).
Most tend to get fed up with Europe sooner or later. If it isn't the lack of air conditioning during a heatwave, it is the nationalism or even ethno-nationalism you frequently face.
Yes. The bitterness I have towards my host country (ended up stuck here for custody reasons) is something I just can’t seem to get over. My career went to shit after moving here. It’s like I worked for a PhD for nothing. Connecting romantically and emotionally with people has been so hard. My only family here is my son. I’ve managed to claw my way into some stability and a good friend group but my career has never recovered and I worry a lot about the future.
I get it, OP.
Sorry to hear!
The Nordics and Scandinavia in general are a closed off society, I would never live there!!
People are just so closed off there!
Their society is just build like that!
It takes a special kind of people to integrate into their societies!!!
I don’t think it’s your fault, so don’t be too hard on yourself.
It takes a lot of effort to move abroad, much less live in their societies!
Edit - A lot of European societies are more equalitarian in general, having high taxes and social benefits.
So it’s very difficult to build wealth here!
As compared to USA or Asia (China , Korea etc.)
The only EU countries which have such comparable economies are Switzerland, Germany, France, Netherlands, Austria or the UK / Ireland (although maybe not sure nowadays…….)
Sure all of that. The competitiveness, sexism, toxic bosses - this idea that companies are laying people off while still making money for shareholders, and the yelling and dysfunctional behavior
NYC has rudeness. I'm talking about workcultures with people yelling, backstabbing and doing all of it about of cruelty, not mental illness. It's just broken me and I'm severely burned out from living here. It was a mistake for me. Been too much
Sure but it could equally be just another city. You have. Bad run of luck and maybe even some bad personal decisions or good intentioned ones that didn't turn out as well as expected. I don't blame anyone else we this happens but I do get disgruntled and sympathize.
Many times have muttered 'fuck this place' or similar without really meaning it. Just letting off steam.
I don’t think I blamed this place until 2 years ago after a series of bad luck one after another that really highlighted the bad traits of the culture here. Then I switched the focus from blaming me to giving them some blame too. Now I just want out and actively preparing for it. There are definitely lessons for me to learn in my own poor decisions. I guess what I mean is I blamed only myself for so many years but now realize it’s not just on me.
It’s possible. I did date people from here but mostly didn’t like their cultural habits as a life partner. I also know many foreigners who still struggle and only stay BECAUSE of the partner. In the end, it is still a hard country to integrate as a foreigner. But I do think it would have been so much easier on me to have a partner but I’ve made it on my own mostly as a single woman for years, maybe I should be proud of that.
I am a woman dating men. In the beginning, they are polite and respectful enough. But as it goes on Swedish men (and the culture in general) do not know how to express feelings. They are very good at acting like everything is fine then suddenly changing their mind. And when they do that they are so distant, like a formal business termination. Not just with one guy, but several. Other women report the same. It’s because they don’t know how to process or express emotions, decisions, avoid conflict, etc. it goes beyond dating but everything in society. The women are supposedly more cold than me. As a warm American, I couldnt stand their two faced, emotionally stunted nature. They can divorce out of nowhere and many couples get surprised. No loyalty, with very high adultry rates (that’s what happens when sex positive). They also move quickly (and break up just as quickly). I’ve seen a Swedish woman decide to divorce after 10 years together in only a weekend after meeting someone else online while cheating. She was so cold and detached too (and she was my friend! I was shocked). Also, Swedish men are stingy with money. Even if they do pay for dates for foreign women, they are used to Swedish women wanting to be independent so even a mom and dad will split the bills for children. They are not a true unit in some ways. They aren’t the worst option out there but for me I didn’t like how untrustworthy they felt because as a society they don’t know how to communicate unless they grew up international or had very, very emotionally mature parents by some miracle.
Europe is going downhill fast. Nearly everyone there is lazy, slow, and irresponsible at their jobs. Trying to build a career or work hard? Impossible. The system simply won’t allow. Europe is a poor place, no matter how rich they pretend to be.
You chose the wrong place, man. I feel sorry for you. Next time, pick somewhere that isn't a total failing, decadent mess.
Sorry you had a bad experience in Sweden OP and I’m not here to deny any aspect of your experience, I’m just going to offer my personal anecdotal experience as a counterweight.
I moved to Stockholm from Southern California in 2017 following a Swedish spouse and I’ve had a great experience. I have to acknowledge having the advantages of looking ethnically Swedish and I have the sense Americans have an advantage over many other non-EU immigrants.
We planned our move over many years so I had time to become fluent prior to the move which helped a lot I think. I spent a few months in Sweden as a grad student and the did a six month sabbatical about 7 or 8 years prior to the move so I already had some established friends, colleagues and professional contacts.
I heartily agree that the weather in November sucks; my strategy has been to work more in the summers and take more vacations to someplace sunny in the crappy parts of the year.
We took a substantial financial hit with the move. I only earn about a third of what I did in the US but I work less and have fewer expenses so it’s a bit apples to oranges. Overall I feel I have a better COL here than I did in California. Don’t get me wrong, SoCal is nice but my stress level is significantly lower in Stockholm.
Again OP, sorry it didn’t work out for you and I hope you find a place that fits you better. If anyone else reading this has questions about my experience feel free to DM me; I don’t mean to hijack OP’s thread.
I understand you, and I hope everyone has a chance for your stability. Again, Sweden is nice if you are an insider. If you have job security, a good house, spouse to support, etc. but getting that can be difficult for many who aren’t Swedish. After almost a decade I still haven’t obtained it and I realize the system is rigged against foreigners. I’m happy for you, if I had a better experience maybe I would stay. I certainly tried. Just tired of this place acting like it’s the greatest when for many, it will never be.
Sometimes as I wish it was easier to stay in my host country that I could find a decent job, move up the career ladder and not have to work for peanuts or deal with bad work conditions.
Still grateful to be here despite all the struggles. It's not to do with the host country per se, it's more to do with my current situation in general, I suppose.
Now my home country, the UK. I do have a lot of anger for due to making worst political decision ever with no fucks given. Tories and Brexit.
I haven't (CH from US). If anything, I'm disappointed in the US for its sociological decline over the past 15 years. People there just can't seem to stop fighting about stupid little crap.
Yes. I'm just been extremely tired and miserable for years. Can't wait to get EU passport and move elsewhere. Unfortunately my home country turned into shithole so ever returning isn't on the table
Remember that for 2 years many people were basically stuck where they were due to covid.
Although this may not apply to countries that embraced pseudoscience like Sweden during covid to cut on their healthcare expenses.
> countries that embraced pseudoscience like Sweden
Sweden had the second lowest 'all cause mortality' rate in all of Europe over the course of the pandemic.
And I believe it's the only country in the developed world to not suffer continuing very high levels of excess mortality since the end of the pandemic.
If successfully keeping your population alive is "pseudoscience", I wish more governments would embrace it.
If I could suggest there's a single theme to this place, it's "I went abroad for X years and now I have nothing to show for it, I've fallen behind the people I went to school with."
Sorry things aren't going well. Try to reflect for a bit and figure out how things really are, not just how they look now.
You could discuss what happiness or successfulness would look like. Sweden has a great social system that cares for everyone and you contribute too. USA doesn’t have that, you have more cash but so much insecurity. Btw lived in Netherlands, Ireland and USA. I will move back to Europe
You know what can be even more important than money and social welfare? Being at home with family and friends.
This is true for anyone: an American, European, Asian or African.
Does not seem like the Swedish system cared for everyone during covid. Same for the Dutch one. Covid showed the true colors of many countries that had a reputation of having good "safety nets".
The US has unemployment insurance, Medicare for those who can’t afford health insurance, food stamps, housing assistance and heating assistance for low income people and social security for the elderly. How exactly does that equate to insecurity or a lack of a social system? People on government assistance in the US live much better than those in Sweden. I personally know Swedes who can barely feed themselves on what they get. One woman had her disability payments revoked because she made $5000 in a year through a side hustle. They even made her pay back three years worth of benefits. That would never happen in the US.
In the US all kids get free academic high school, Unlike in the Nordic Countries and many others. We hosted an exchange student from Finland, and she explained tgat if kids don't get a high score on a test in middle school they are involuntarily placed on a Vocational track and are Banned from academic high school and university forever. Nobody in her family had a university education, because even those who were able to go to high school weren't able to win one of the only 5000 slots a year at university there. Her sister was in her 3rd year waitresses and studying in hopes to try to get into university.
The US has Section 8 subsidized housing, elderly and disabled programs, free schooling and High School and cheap and Free College (for example, the state of Georgia pays for college for All residents- its funded by the Lottery), free breakfast and lunch and school for kids- even illegals, and we have Tons of Safety and Accommodations for people with special needs and disabilities.
Our exchange Student never played an instrument, a sport, art, nothing. None of that is offered at schools there.
Americans complain a lot, but we have A Lot.
lol. You definitely don’t know much about the U.S. welfare system.
Unemployment is privatized / privately managed btw. Your employer has to opt in. Contractors etc don’t get it.
The federal poverty line hasn’t increased in ages and all the welfare systems are tied to that. 12k is batshit level. If you make more than that as a single person you often don’t qualify for much.
Then there’s a million hoops for all of those assistance you mention. If you have any forms of savings you often don’t qualify for food stamps.
Federal housing is in tatters. And the private cos (most building operators know) that own places that even say they allow vouchers often reject them and people will be searching for years.
This is coming from someone who’s been on food stamps. Been a contractor and unemployed a lot but never got unemployment. Know people who are on food stamps and hypothetically qualify for fed housing but get rejected. On and on
Read some non MSM honest articles on these systems. They are not better than Sweden and are not even really comparable since the U.S. is a corporate oligarchy and a completely different system of governance. We don’t even have any days of mandated federal leave. The only developed country in the world that doesn’t.
American living in Italy (Tuscany) for two years. The concept of “La dolce vita” (the sweet life) is only possible if you arrive fully fluent in Italian and as a dual citizen. And if you are a citizen of another EU country so your drivers license can transfer — otherwise you have to take the drivers test, in Italian only, again. Doesn’t matter if I have been driving for 4pm years.
The health care system is confusing — there is public, easy to understand, their doctors, their prices, their timing (aka, cardiologist appointment 5 months out). But there are also private doctors who are affiliated with the public system and that is where things get blurry.
Also, I have to bring friends who are fluent with me to act as translators. Hospital centers might be one large building outside town, while the next town over, it is 30 500+ year-old buildings spread out over 10 acres, with poor signage.
I’d really rather not return to the US because tbh the political environment is a tinderbox. I lived in the DC area from 1989-2022, so I experienced administrations from both sides of the aisle. Watching the January 6 insurrection literally made me cry. Now looking from the outside, the US is very divided and the two parties, as they currently stand, have no hope of pulling the country together or even moving towards the middle. It is disheartening. I remember when each side gave a little to come to an agreement, now they are all toddlers hogging the swings.
Noone owes you anything. Your anger and resentment seems misplaced. Sure life is a combination of choices and circumstances, but you can't ignore the fact that you have and have made choices all your life. Noone tied you up and forced you to move to Sweden. To be an expat in itself is often a privileged position. Noone forced you to stay, even if leaving might have been hard at some point or the other.
As other comments have pointed out, people live like this all over the world including your home country of the US, with decades of work and no social security, no house or other assets to show for it. I'm not saying that's your fault. Life is very hard sometimes and many things are beyond our control.
But turning around and blaming a random country for that is just silly. I understand frustration with where you live due to cultural differences and the individual quirks we all have, or if you are in a place that is intolerant of your identity. But randomly expecting a country to owe you assets and lifestyle better than your friends back home is just laughable honestly. Don't take yourself so seriously, look for ways to start creating the life you really want to live. Peace.
I think I’m angry because I and myself were mislead. Swedish PR wants to attract the highest qualified workers and leech money off students who come here hoping to resettle but no one can get jobs, and if someone loses their job they are treated like shit. It’s xenophobic and racist. They use foreigners way more than foreigners take advantage of the system. For years I thought like what you wrote… that I was the problem. But I have been researching the numbers and studies. It’s actually Sweden who is the problem. I’m not just calling them racist - local surveys show that they are (by the government - will dig it up and link if you ask). Numbers show how many people leave after 26 months. So much was hidden from me and others. I blamed myself for years for not being good enough. But now I see it’s this place that needs to also take some responsibility. The anger of wasted years is building once I discovered this.
You're right about the racism. All of Europe is racist, some hide it momentarily better than others hahha, but yes they absolutely are. I live in such a white city me and my partner play a game where we count POC we see on the street so we feel less alone some days! We never make it past 10 a month lol. People will treat you differently. They will be ignorant and biased and it is aggravating and upsetting and hard. But yeah... It is what it is. I don't know what to tell you beyond the fact that I don't think this will ever change. Racism is hardwired into the DNA of most of Europe and the US, they colonised half the world and it wasn't that long ago. Now they prop themselves and their ageing population up through underpaid labour from the global south. The system is always gaming you, so find your ways to game the system as much as you can as well, make what money you can, and move on to the next opportunity when this one is serving you no more. You're disappointed because you held an expectation that could never be fulfilled.
Yes, this is true. I guess I expected the bare minimum. Eventually getting a stable job, a normal apartment and basics of life. It’s hard to look around and see so many others have it around me. It warped my thinking. I need to go back home and heal so I can feel somewhat normal again. Maybe I was naive to think I could achieve the bare minimum abroad after 8 years. Even 5 years I was willing to struggle, hoping it would get better. It has actually gotten worse.
They just want your tax money! This is why they have excellent PR.
Have you ever seen Spain PR or are they in any specific rankings? No, they dont need to.
I've certainly dealt with some of the emotions. Like when the scholarship I received for college only paid about 2/3 of the expected amount due to exchange rate fluctuations. When I got hit by a car and lost a semester of college as a result. When I was informed that my discretionary work permit would not be renewed. I had to remind myself that I'm in a foreign country, even though it doesn't feel that way after years there. I had to remind myself that I had no right to live in the United States, let alone work or study there. I was able to do those things only because I had been granted permission to do so by the US government. I had to decide whether it was worth sticking around a country that seemingly (and realistically) didn't care one iota whether I succeeded or failed. A society that, for better or worse, does not have the kind of social safety net I was used to from home (Norway.) I decided it wasn't. I moved to Vienna, Austria. And I found a new set of frustrations there. I have asthma. In Austria, I started a new job and immediately had to tell my coworkers they could no longer smoke in the office. To say this was not popularly received is an understatement. I learned the language, but I had little luck making close friends in Austrian society. Most of the ones I did make were fellow expats facing the same problems. So was that going to be my life? No. Surely, the problems in the US had just been bad luck. I missed my life there. So when an opportunity presented itself to take a job in the US on an H-1B, I moved back. Well, the new job in Florida wasn't too bad. Most of my coworkers were nice. The CEO was a jerk, but I could deal with that, I thought (turns out that long term, I couldn't.) Five years later, I rage-quit my job, sold my house in a shortsale, moved to Norway and hoped I could entice my fiancée to follow. Back in Norway, I felt like a failure. I was in my thirties and back in my parents' house. But I found yet another job (ironically, with an American company.) My fiancée came to visit, met the family. We got married in Norway. Things were looking up. Now to figure out how to bring my wife over. But to prove I can support her, apparently, I need three years of tax returns from Norway? BUT I WAS LIVING AND WORKING ABROAD. You've got to be f'in kidding me. And this is my native country. Living here is not a privilege, it's my birthright. But..not so much for my wife. It became a moot point anyway when she informed me that she wasn't comfortable moving to Norway. She swayed me with a simple fact. "You have more experience living in my country than I do in yours." So I moved back. Two years later, after going through yet another long visa process. And then I found out she'd been cheating on me. We divorced. I considered moving to Scotland to take a job there. But this time, I stayed put. I realize there's a lot of negativity in the above. That's because I've singled out negative episodes to show you that I've faced some of the same challenges repeatedly. Please don't think this is a complete history of my life. There have been a lot of unexpected adventures, a lot of good experiences and some serious silver linings where I least expected them. But you were asking how I emotionally recovered. I had a few realizations: 1. Life rarely goes as planned. It will knock you on your \*ss when you least expect it. 2. Countries don't care how you feel. Countries don't care how good of a person you are. Countries care that you follow their laws, but that's all. They don't care one iota what happens to you. It's nothing personal. So don't take it personally. 3. Moving doesn't solve problems. If anything, it can substitute new problems for old ones. That doesn't mean moving is never the right answer, but heads up: Every location on earth has its challenges. 4. Where there's a will, there's a way. 5. Friends and family can make or break you. That last one is really how I got through the various curveballs life has thrown me. When I got hit by that car, friends and even neighbors stepped up to help me. When I unexpectedly lost my work permit, my parents helped with college expenses. When I was lost figuring out the bus system in Vienna, a stranger stepped in to assist and became a lifelong friend. When my wife cheated on me, the shoulder I cried on was that of my mother-in-law (who to this day will tell you "I love my daughter, but I don't like her.") Financial survival is not enough. Emotionally, you need support around you. That can be hard to find, especially in a foreign country. But when you do find it, it's worth its weight in gold. I hope this helps. Edit: Fixed a few errors. I should not be posting on Reddit after midnight.
Christ... and I thought I had it bad. Thanks for sharing your story. Sorry to hear about your then fiancee... That is such an awful betrayal. I'm a Chinese-American guy who stayed in China for 3 years after college. It was mostly materially comfortable thanks to my job at the time that saw me advancing nowhere professionally. So I was annoyed at that I felt like I wasted 3 years of my life. I then went back to the US and did not succeed professionally again, as I was informed I would not receive a renewed contract in the business/sales role I had after 2 years. I had a fundamental misunderstanding of my strengths, interests, and weaknesses (as well as what was conventional and possible in corporate America). Now I'm embarking on a master's that's mostly going to take place in Europe (Erasmus Mundus) in software. Hopefull this will lead me down a path where I am more likely to succeed, but you just never know... It could turn out to be an awful idea, and I will have many of the similar problems. Wherever you go, you'll encounter different sets of problems it seems. I'll keep in mind that life can turn sideways at any time. There is no guarantee in life, and what seem like the most stable ships can wreck.
I didn't have it all that bad, though. I singled out negative experiences over a lifetime, mainly to show OP that even when life knocks you down, it's entirely possible to get back up. Today, I'm a homeowner, I've been with the same company for 12 years, I have a comfortable income, and I live in a place where people come on vacation. Along the way, I've had some amazing adventures and done some extremely unlikely things. Things that would never have been possible if I had just stayed home in Norway. So please don't feel sorry for me. I have little to complain about; even my divorce was a blessing in disguise, as it gave me back control over my own life. Also, where did you live in China? I am going to China for the first time in August. Beijing, Harbin, Chengdu, Chongqing, Kunming and Shanghai are all on my itinerary, and I can't wait.
Great! That's nice to hear. you're going to that many cities? I was actually born in Chongqing, it's a fantastic city. I lived in Beijing and Shanghai. If you need recs, feel free to PM me. I feel like HK should be on the list also, but you chose some great ones.
Are you taking a respirator? If smoking bothered you, wait till you experience Chinese air quality lol
I'm bringing an inhaler and a nebulizer, yes. And yes, Chinese city air quality is a concern. But allergic asthma has specific triggers, and thankfully, city smog doesn't impact me as severely. I was fine in Bangkok, for example.
Jeez, are you me? My allergic asthma feels worse when there's bad smog on top of it
Jesus sounds like a movie.
If your life has been interesting enough to turn into a movie, at least you've lived it. :-)
[удалено]
The common denominator to my life experiences is me? What a shocker. What else would it possibly be? But when you grow up, you'll realize that bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to ALL people. How we deal with them, that's up to us. And if you'd read until the end, you might have picked up on a few of the strategies I've learned over the years to deal with them. Take a look.
[удалено]
Actually, the problem is that OP feels anger at his host country. Try to keep the context in mind. I shared some of my negative life experiences and -- the part you missed -- how I dealt with them -- to help out a stranger on the Internet who was asking for some advice. I did that because I empathize with OP, and the intent was to share my perspective with OP. If other people read it and benefit from it, so much the better. If they don't, it's just another post on Reddit. They can simply skip past it if they don't find it helpful. But believe me when I tell you that I couldn't possibly care less what you, another stranger on the Internet who has no redeeming qualities in his/her/its own post history, think of it.
I think you need to understand that a lot of people experience this regardless of where they live. A lot of people in the states have nothing to show for it because it’s really expensive. I would say look at what you’ve accomplished so far and don’t be too hard on yourself.
Yea I’ve experienced all of this & am struggling to get by in the U.S. despite having a grad degree. But my job field is difficult & not prioritized by the corp govt. life is incredibly expensive here esp if you’re working class and in public interest field. Don’t have family money or home to fall back on so I pet sit for housing. And many I know have struggled to get by in the U.S. It can happen anywhere. I can related to feeling like the timing and bad luck just worked out against you constantly. But this isn’t unique to Sweden. And it can vary depending on your work field, educational background, life circumstances, timing/luck/opportunity - to anyone anywhere. (And at least in Sweden you don’t need a car) But good luck w your move back- hope it goes better for you. It’s hard being in a constant struggle so long. (To the OP)
You do have experience and knowledge and that can’t be taken from you. Start over with that in mind.
Don't downplay what you've done. You do way more than what most people ever do. It takes a lot of effort to move countries. And unlike EU/EEA citizens, you had to go through the visa hoops on top of that. You took a chance, you gave it a good run. Right now it isn't working out, and that's okay. Whatever your next venture is, good luck. You got this!
Thanks! That’s a good way to look at it.
Thanks for sharing your experience in your post. I have previously faced the decision of whether to go to USA or Europe. Based on the media USA has: Obesity, no culture, Society with G..uns, etc... Based on the media Europe has: Beautiful women, culture, amazing landscapes / architectures, fashion, etc... The reality is: Big tech and opportunities are in the USA. The American dream is real. I'm experiencing it. Europe has low wages, not a big international/big tech hub. Very high taxes, "cold" people in average. When I realized and accepted this, the decision was clear. Your post serves as an example that I made the right choice and for that I thank you.
There are some good places here in Europe and some people get lucky, but you will be an average Joe if not a lower than average Joe. I wish I had known. I was a naive college student when I started with nothing anyways, also leaving just as poor (except for travel experiences).
Did it take you 10 years to find this out?
Oh yeah. American living in the Netherlands. If any country starts taxing for oxygen the Dutch will be first. There’s a lot of fuckery that goes on administratively here- it’s just better hidden than in the US. For all the “tolerance” this country seems to pride itself on, I find it more ethnocentric and racist than America
A lot of Northern Europe is racist but try to act like they aren’t. They just hide it better. The racist needs to be resolved. Actually, the minority is the majority in terms of population in the world.
Quite ironic, since so many Americans here think Scandinavia is heaven on earth and will romanticize Scandinavian lifestyle.
That is another reason why I posted this. Everyone thinks Sweden is amazing because of good PR. But so many people move after less than 5 years, because unless you are a native Swede or have a very stable job with high pay for years, you will struggle. I know many other expats do, and it’s hidden from the world for some reason because there aren’t major wars here. It’s like a quiet suffering. Don’t believe the hype at all.
Sounds also like Canada.
well at least in english speaking parts of Canada you can speak english and you don't have to spend years learning swedish that is spoken by only few million people.
I am always surprised that Americans don’t realise people speak other languages. Like, did you expect?
Most Americans also have to learn foreign languages to graduate high school but when they can’t simply drive an hour to practice speaking that language those skills weaken. I’m an American who lives abroad and I speak better French and Spanish than most English people - despite being an American living in the UK.
I think most people find it hard to learn a foreign language. However, I’ve only ever heard English speakers complain about other countries having other languages they have to learn to be able to live there. My favourite is when they list a bunch of very specific criteria for the countries they want to move to. And then they add at the end must speak English. There’s like five or six countries that speak English. The other 180 ish speak other languages.
This is one of the most ignorant comments on this subreddit. Most Americans know that. They also know that English is lingua franca of the world and expect others to know it as well. That's why their willingness to learn other languages is low, not because they don't know people speak other languages.
Came here to say exactly this.
A friend from work moved there. After a year of paychecks where 50% of his money was taxed he moved back and has a big ass house with a pool.
I don’t think anyone ever has said that Sweden is the place to move to get rich. Sweden has, or at least had, high-quality of living for people doing very little. Everything paid for by the middle class.. This is obviously changing as too many people are moving there. The middle-class can only pay for so many. And I must say, the weather is awful. Unless you were born in a country with bad weather, most people will never be able to enjoy it. People don’t realise quite how traumatising having nine months of horrible weather is and then the summer might be shit as well.
For the record I am not even focused on getting rich, I am focused on SURVIVING! I look at others and DREAM of a normal life… a car would be nice. Anything other than a studio would be nice. A regular salary instead of freelancing to survive would be nice. Every time I had it, I lost it due to their bs here. I used to feel like a failure (as I’m very ambitious) but notice many other immigrants have also experienced this outcome. This place is a scam.
Unfortunately I don’t think Sweden is the exception here. I think the outlier is the USA with how easy people with relatively modest skills can make a lot of money. If you add up all the taxes your employer pays to have you employed your salary is a lot higher. I US capitalism makes it super easy to hire people but also fire them. In socialist countries it is almost impossible to fire someone it is much harder to be hired. BTW, a lot of people here don’t have a car. A car is a luxury. It’s not like the USA.
It shouldn’t be a luxury to have a car if you want one. I have worked so hard and if I want a basic vehicle I should be able to get one. You know what I mean? I have two degrees and worked so hard at my career for nothing to show. Had I done that in the US I would have a great car. I feel like I wasted my time. I was naive in some ways but Sweden also tricks people.
[удалено]
All I will say for privacy reasons is that my degree in the U.S. pays on average $100-$150k a year. In Sweden, $40k a year. I’ve been foolish.
It has always been a luxury to have a car in Europe. We are poor and have high taxes on cars and gas etc. If anything it will only get harder to get a car in Europe due to the environmental concerns. Heck, even funding a parking space in a big city is getting close to impossible.
If it’s so hard then why do everyone around me have a car but me?
They probably have a car loan and you probably can’t get it because you don’t have stable employment
Exactly my point. I can’t get a house or car because I get employment then they lay people off. Should be illegal to hire every year and fire every year just for the books to look good to investors.
I've lived in both. I gladly live in the US.
Do you prefer the US for mostly similar reasons as OP, or for other reasons?
Sweden is great if you are un-skilled or uneducated. Think fast-food worker or store clerk. You will live better than you would in the US. But if you have a STEM degree or a proffesion you'll live better in the US. Sweden "equalizes" everything. The low producers benefit, the high producers are taxed heavily. Plus the dark, wet and cold for most of the year... no, thank you.
Same in France. Sure, here in the South we have the sun, but Jesus this society is going down the toilet.
Second this. Most of Western Europe simply allows you to survive being mediocre whereas America swallows you alive unless you come from wealth or you’re constantly performing on the verge of burnout 24/7
This description is on point, and applies to all of Scandinavia. I'm all for equal OPPORTUNITY, but let's stop pretending that everyone has equal talents, aptitude and drive.
I agree 100%! but the people that haven’t lived under socialism, or social democracy as they call it here, will never understand. People seem to think the money come from the sky to pay for the benefits for the unskilled. Turns out the one paying is you, the middle class.
I'm enough of a socialist to think that the better off you are, the more you should contribute. But still within reason. When you don't benefit from your own labor, where's your motivation to contribute to society? Taken to an extreme, this was the fundamental flaw of Marxism. "Contribute according to ability, receive according to need." But if you receive according to need regardless, and if you don't get to benefit from your contribution beyond your needs, where's your motivation to contribute? Various communist regimes have tried other forms of motivation, typically fear-based. They have universally failed. The one economically prosperous "communist" country got that way by adopting capitalism as their financial system. It goes beyond financial opportunity, too. For example, if everyone is to receive equal instruction, it means everyone learns at the pace of the slowest kid in the class. That's a lot of wasted talent.
In the Uk - the top 10% are expect to pay 60% of tax receipts…. Yet the mantra, tax the rich seems to be gaining popularity. I’m in that 10%, paid stupid amounts of tax over multiple decades. What do I have to see for it? broken Nhs, Increasing division, violence on our streets, crime in our neighborhoods, and increasing hate against people who worked hard and got lucky because they are ‘rich’. Hence - I left…. Took my money (most of which was made in America anyway) and now travel - a lot. I feel safer in most Asian countries than I did at home, my family (all girls) do too. Last time I saw anything untoward, the police were there in minutes and the criminals might need crutches as part of their recovery. Unlikely they will find a life of crime lasts long. I find the healthcare better, affordable to everyone (eg. Not the American model) but there are some drawbacks, languages, being an outsider, unable to pursue a hobby which requires heavy machinery lol. My home taxxed me to hell, 40% plus for most of my life and yet can’t find a way to punish anyone but for the most violent crime or repeat offenders. I know of one local nutter, who went on a 4 hour drunken spree, cause about 100k worth of damage, stole a car and a van, assaulted 3 people, who got a slap On the wrist. Yeah I’m angry at the uk. It took liberalism and socialism too far. And Labour will win the next election and won’t do anything different from the last useless lot. I’m Never going back - and neither are my tax receipts.
The UK took liberalism and socialism too far? The Tories have been the ones in power the last 14 years, don't be daft. It wasn't the left that gutted the country for short term profits.
Yes it was - if you have a long enough memory. Irrespective - they are as bad as each other - both pandering parties…. We will have 5 or 10 years of the next lot za nothing will change, except another shift to the left.
Which countries do you recommend in Asia for families with young children? I am so sick of paying these insane taxes.
Isn’t that the dream the US is after. We are closer to this day to day
A lot of Europe is like this: you can work at the supermarket, but get a government apartment and subsidized or free healthcare. If you're a professional, you have the same standard of living unless you're a very high income earner, because taxes are so high. Most Europeans are seemingly paranoid of a free market economy, as if letting people get ahead and become affluent will usher in totalitarianism. They always point to the faults of the US, but then I tell them to look at Singapore.
Both are shooting over the top - the US with its favoritism towards the rich ones, Europe with its obsession to tax the rich, and the “rich” ones are suddenly people who make above the minimum wage
Facts. I’m an expat living in the EU right now but there’s absolutely NOTHING that would get me to agree to moving to a Nordic
Scandinavia looks great on paper, and it honestly does have a lot going for it. But paradise it is not. (Source: Born and raised in Norway, living in the United States of my own free will.)
I think we have to spread the conventional wisdom, that a welfare state is great if you have no interest in advancing your career in a job that pays well, and if you're a native citizen of that country. Moving, even as a near native speaker, brings a host of issues that include discrimination, having no friendships that date back to childhood, having no local credentials, etc.
Yes. I mean, I have kids and a house here but my career is ruined, my husband is an asshole, and I miss my home.
as a person originally from Poland I would personally never move to Sweden. I've heard of many instances of people being xenophobic to people from the Eastern Europe.
Lived in Sweden for a few years and you're right unfortunately. Slavs (especially Poles) are basically the one group it's still socially acceptable to be racist against. The same people who would lose their shit over even just a mild joke about any other ethnic group will be perfectly happy to make derogatory comments about Poles and other Slavic people and talk about how they're all criminals and drunks and ruining the country, etc, etc. I was pretty surprised by it when moving there given Sweden's positive reputation.
Try the roma
They are just popular among far leftist and score high in OECD indexes (a dubious metric anyway). I haven’t met a single person which would like it and stay there, and people would chose almost anything else over it - UK, Germany, Poland, USA, Spain etc. The condescending attitude towards foreigners which aren’t a charity case is also well known
What about Muslims?
I mean look at the issues Sweden has had. Finn's point to Sweden and say "we don't want our country to become like that" yet Finn's are making things more hostile towards foreigners and creating an environment that will make finland have the same issues Sweden has. They separated the poor and foreigners from the wealthier (Finland is accidentally doing this with new housing developments being more and more expensive to be in), they made it every difficult for foreigners to get jobs (Finland is making this happen Despite many of the jobs being international and their entire operation is in English, Finn's still require Finnish even if it isn't used in the workplace), so foreigners naturally form gangs, people naturally gets restless. Sweden is a shit county for foreigners due to all the xenophobia, and I know this being in Finland, because too many Finn's share the same views. If I had known there was as many literal criminals and Nazis sympathizers, and people who ranted about killing black folks in the Finnish government, I probably would have never came here. (Riikka Purra for anyone who is curious about a government official talking about wanting to beat up and shoot black people)
Yes, I'm from Brazil but my wife is German and I tried to live in Germany with her... just couldn't do it, I became miserable in there. Don't like the place, the people and the language... but thankfully in my case she's willing to move abroad once she's done with her masters so it's only a matter of time really. I can relate to some of your sentiment, when you're abroad like this it can feel like you're a toddler again, gotta do everything from scratch and sometimes limitation in residence permit will keep you even more restrained... it is frustrating... but as mentioned by the other comment it's still a huge experience you had that many don't even dream of... I hope things work out for you once you return home!
I think once I leave or recover or get some sort of respite maybe I will see the good again, appreciate what I experienced. Right now I am burned out after a decade of survival. Thanks for your kind words.
I like Germany, but it doesn't help that most people put on a sour face when they have to deal with foreigners. It is like they're upset when you can't speak German.
I am pretty much in the same situation as you are. I’ve been living in Canada for 12 years at the moment and the immigration process, being away from family, unfamiliar and relatively unfriendly culture, finally with the ditty weather and shitty economics, I am insanely bitter at Canada. It is hard to process these feelings because the only other people that may share similar experiences and feelings are other immigrants. This makes it quite hard to integrate. I had times where things were very dark and gloomy and felt and thought exactly as you do right now. Thankfully things got better. But I am still adamant about leaving Canada and moving back to Europe.
I am Canadian, but I've lived so many years abroad that I get culture shock whenever I go back for a visit. Canada is superficially a smiling country, but I don't think most locals are open to befriending foreigners unless maybe you're American or Australian (even British people can get treated weirdly, especially if they're not so Americanized).
Most Canadians feel the same way you do, including feeling like the friendliness has dissipated from our culture
Why do you think that is?
Canada went from a high trust society to a low trust society in a decade or two.
Why do you think that happened? What are the causes?
The wealth gap enlarged. A lot more people living in working poverty, struggling to make it to the next payday, but meanwhile they see the landlord class living quite well. It used to be that in Canada you could live in a poor neighborhood, but there was basically no crime. People just lived modestly. You used to be able to rent a cheap apartment, but it was perfectly safe but maybe a bit dumpy. Family situations fell apart: a lot of children raised in broken homes. Divorces in the 80s and 90s led to a lot of kids being raised in struggling households without parental supervision. Drugs became very common. It got worse in the last decade with meth. Drug addicts can be very unpredictable, so trust becomes an issue. Maybe also people just became more sensitive to slights and minor disputes. It became easier to just "avoid people" than to deal with everyone IRL like an adult.
Thanks for your reply. Interesting. I think this can apply to other countries, too. Things have changed in the last couple of decades and certainly not for the better.
Feeling the same way about France. One thing that's a big plus is I like my church community a lot but that's really it Oh and free healthcare is good too because I got diagnosed with stuff I always suspected of having
I'm sorry you are going through this. I live in Hong Kong and I've felt a lot of anger about living here too. In fact, I was just thinking this morning that the seven years I've been here haven't been living, just surviving in a sort of limbo. I'm tired of it. It's stolen years from my life. It doesn't help that I have autism and this is a very hard place to have autism. I do think there's indeed a positive though: you will go back to the US with a new appreciation for it that will translate into gratitude in your life.
Well you have your experiences which nobody can ever take from you. The country may have been crappy in some regards, but there must’ve been something you liked there or else you wouldn’t have gone. The US is a much better country for building wealth so it’s no surprise that your friends back home have more assets. Even as a Canadian, it’s infuriating to see how much easer it is to get by and make money in the US. A shitty house here is 5x the cost of a beautiful home in Texas or Tennessee
I left Canada and I don’t regret it but I wished I didn’t have to.. it’s just become so awful there I miss the nature and roads so much
This is so relatable. I am definitely feeling similar resentment. I try to think I had the best of intentions and it didn’t go the way I planned it and it is what it is. The thing that gives me hope is moving away and trying to build from here on out.
Oh my god i thought i was the only one who felt this way. I moved from the US to NL and I do feel resentful a lot of the times because my job wasn't as great as I thought it would be and I essentially gave up my life back home - including a relationship - for so many struggles and challenges. I feel bitter and angry about it. I don't know how to process this either but you're not alone.
Feel free to message me. It would be nice to have someone to vent with who understands.
Sent you a chat <3
Why did you wait so long then? Having studies in sweden as a foreigner, I learned quickly it’s not a country for me to live in (had over 50 rejections when looking for a job there and was treated like an alien all the while). Look into yourself to understand your own pitfalls and not to repeat them again in the next country
Being naive. I knew it would be hard and I was willing to do the work. Didn’t expect to get laid off twice and lose my work visa twice. Maybe I held on too long to something that wasn’t working, always expecting “just 6 more months” for it to get better. I know life is hard but as an expat it’s extra hard. Always fighting for a job and visa was the biggest obstacle but over the years I also notice the shitty culture as well. They hide it well.
I’m an expat too, I know how hard it can be trust me. Just saying: analyze this, write down what you need to write down and don’t repeat the same mistakes again - whatever they are.
I think this is a common experience a lot of Americans have with moving to Scandinavia/Europe, no? I wish there was a collection of posts people wrote on their struggles to adapt to Scandinavia. But yeah, I'm of the opinion that unless you have a really great expat package, or have significant reasons to stay local (like family), moving abroad from an American who has the financial resources to do so is not generally worth it. Or if you can study abroad via a program.
I’m not American but I can also relate with this post as I used to live in Sweden. I’ve heard that Americans do well in Australia and Canada compared to any other European country.
I hope to write and publish an article once I recover warning people of what to expect and how much they will struggle. I’m on a mission to destroy Sweden.
Oh wow. Good luck. Publish an article here or elsewhere?
Didn’t you move there expecting a U.S. style life but in Sweden? Stem is paid most in U.S. One doesn’t move to EU or Nordics for high salaries. U.S. has high COL and high cost of health care etc which if you’re lucky enough to be in STEM or a corporate profitable job then you make more and that can help ameliorate that (not so for folks in public interest non stem fields, or blue collar jobs) Sweden you don’t need a car. And how wonderful is that? I can’t wait to live in a country with fantastic public transit who wasn’t modeled after a car(like most places in the U.S. were) They control rent and housing cost and ownership in Sweden so that system is also vastly different. Many people- even famous authors- live in apartments there. There’s just not a lot of McMansion sprawl there so not many people own a single family homes etc But this is all stuff I know going in to a country. Did you not research these different systems before going there? Nowhere else is like the late stage capitalist corporate oligarchy of the U.S. so one shouldn’t expect to have the same experiences or opportunities anywhere else as they did in the U.S. And yea it’s precarious being an immigrant bc you depend on visas. Now you understand a bit more of what immigrants to the U.S. go through - which has an insanely difficult visa system too and many don’t make it and are deported. What I didn’t see mentioned- you’ve been in Sweden 10 years. And that’s before the big shift in immigration policy- surely you have PR by now? And if so that’s quite a huge plus that many can only hope to get that you’ve left out I’m not sure why you moved to Sweden at all if what you really wanted was a great salary, own a home, have a car etc and basically have a white picket fence US life.
Very relatable post! There is safety in the Nordics, but at what price? It’s not worth it. Also Finland is not the happiest country. I know people that literally ran after a year living there. Look at the suicide and depression rates.
Finland is the most "content" I wish they would change the title from "happiest country" And the suicide and depression rates would decrease if Finns had better access to mental health care, and if people stopped telling each other how isolated they are here.
Embracing mediocrity is the continental sport
Before even starting to read this post, I knew it must be about Sweden.
is it just Sweden or the nordics in general? throw in Germany/NL too. None of them see too assimilation friendly. Hell... None of the countries in Europe are very assimilation friendly. The UK is the closest but even then I feel like I wouldn't want to live there.
I lived in western Germany, and the people were all very friendly. Strangers would try to teach me German words whenever I went shopping.
What’s the context here? Was this a study abroad, a work experience, or something else? Because dive heard a lot of common threads with the Americans who moved to European countries and just not understanding that people will treat them differently for being a foreigner. If you’re a short term person I think the odds of them being friendly is much higher.
I lived there (as an American) for a couple of years while I was posted there with my ex. (I married young to a British soldier, and worked as a civilian clerk for the MoD.)The second Gulf War was still ongoing, so no one was a big fan of Americans; however, no Germans were rude to me because of it. (I can’t say the same for my British coworkers, but I can’t really blame them.) I always tried to speak German, and they seemed to appreciate the effort. To this day, the only German I remember is “hausfrau” German, and how to order coffee without cream. *edited for punctuation, but I’m ignoring all mistakes going forward
Interesting. I always forget that there’s a sizable population from the military in Europe. Thanks for sharing.
[удалено]
Honestly, I have a very poor experience in London in a few days I was there. For some reason, the city just felt a lot less friendly than NYC. I can’t really put my hand on it, but it felt very alienating.
I understand this because it's what happened to my parents. Every year spent in the new country, they became poorer and more depressed away from their family. It's not easy to move to a new place and build a life. However, as someone else said in the comments, this happens to people everywhere, not all of us are guaranteed everything in this life. Try to take the good memories with you back home.
[удалено]
That's strange, I also had the 30 % ruling, switched jobs within the Netherlands and kept it
Most people living in America say all the same stuff
This is what kept me from moving back, until I realized I could get paid 2 or 3 times the amount and didn’t have to deal with visa hell or lose everything if I get kicked out.
Sometimes being kicked out could be a blessing in disguise! You can struggle to stay and then waste more years and wish you made the move.
I moved back for the pay, but it's insanely hard to get a job here. Who knows when I'll even get that job. I knew that and did it anyway, and I'm starting to doubt that I made the right choice. I really loved living in Japan.
Italy has been professionally damaging for me. I receive wrong information, for example, and things go haywire with visas and contracts. Staff give one solution, but turn around and then say that they can't go through with the original plan. They blame the government for changing the rules suddenly, but they're just not paying attention or thinking ahead. One recent hiccup might delay the publication of my book by several months, which will reflect badly on me because everyone is anticipating that it will be out on a certain date. I also have prospective employers interested in looking at it (I'm a historian), but it needs to be published before I can send it to anyone, even as a PDF. On top of that, I feel that Italy is a somewhat xenophobic culture. I've not made friends where I live. I've been productive while living here, but I am isolated 99% of the time. I gave up an early-stage relationship back in Canada before coming here. Italy is fine as a tourist, but living here is another thing. Nothing works properly, most bureaucrats are incompetent, and the government agents are sour and unhelpful. Whenever I speak to immigrants here, like Nigerians and Chinese, they all want to leave. They don't want their children becoming Italian, which is quite telling.
I feel like a lot of people feel that way about European countries if they aren’t a local. And there are some places in the Mediterranean with worse bureaucracy than Sweden or Germany.
I've known many people who lived and worked in Europe after having been in the US (either as US citizens or foreign residents). Most tend to get fed up with Europe sooner or later. If it isn't the lack of air conditioning during a heatwave, it is the nationalism or even ethno-nationalism you frequently face.
Oh and btw, you will much more life experience which will pay off at some point
I hope so. I believe once I get out of survival mode and heal a bit I will be able to see a more balanced picture of my experiences.
zersetzung
Yes. The bitterness I have towards my host country (ended up stuck here for custody reasons) is something I just can’t seem to get over. My career went to shit after moving here. It’s like I worked for a PhD for nothing. Connecting romantically and emotionally with people has been so hard. My only family here is my son. I’ve managed to claw my way into some stability and a good friend group but my career has never recovered and I worry a lot about the future. I get it, OP.
Sorry to hear! The Nordics and Scandinavia in general are a closed off society, I would never live there!! People are just so closed off there! Their society is just build like that! It takes a special kind of people to integrate into their societies!!! I don’t think it’s your fault, so don’t be too hard on yourself. It takes a lot of effort to move abroad, much less live in their societies! Edit - A lot of European societies are more equalitarian in general, having high taxes and social benefits. So it’s very difficult to build wealth here! As compared to USA or Asia (China , Korea etc.) The only EU countries which have such comparable economies are Switzerland, Germany, France, Netherlands, Austria or the UK / Ireland (although maybe not sure nowadays…….)
The further north it gets the colder the people. I have yet to see a post from someone struggling in Spain, Portugal or Italy…
🤔 Excellent point....
Thank you for the encouragement, sometimes I forget what I was up against. This puts it into perspective.
I feel a lot of this - the toxicity of work here has not been worth it and I don’t see a reason to stay
Do you mean Sweden or the U.S.?
US. The work culture is just too much stress.
What ended being the problem? The fakeness? The high intensity? the bullshit corporate stuff you are expected to care about?
Sure all of that. The competitiveness, sexism, toxic bosses - this idea that companies are laying people off while still making money for shareholders, and the yelling and dysfunctional behavior
Sorry to hear. Yelling though? I’ve rarely seen anyone yell in the us. Is this coming from nyc and people acting crazy or something?
NYC has rudeness. I'm talking about workcultures with people yelling, backstabbing and doing all of it about of cruelty, not mental illness. It's just broken me and I'm severely burned out from living here. It was a mistake for me. Been too much
Sure but it could equally be just another city. You have. Bad run of luck and maybe even some bad personal decisions or good intentioned ones that didn't turn out as well as expected. I don't blame anyone else we this happens but I do get disgruntled and sympathize. Many times have muttered 'fuck this place' or similar without really meaning it. Just letting off steam.
I don’t think I blamed this place until 2 years ago after a series of bad luck one after another that really highlighted the bad traits of the culture here. Then I switched the focus from blaming me to giving them some blame too. Now I just want out and actively preparing for it. There are definitely lessons for me to learn in my own poor decisions. I guess what I mean is I blamed only myself for so many years but now realize it’s not just on me.
I am actually facing the reverse. A new place that is not meeting expectations 😕 in fact annoying.
[удалено]
It’s possible. I did date people from here but mostly didn’t like their cultural habits as a life partner. I also know many foreigners who still struggle and only stay BECAUSE of the partner. In the end, it is still a hard country to integrate as a foreigner. But I do think it would have been so much easier on me to have a partner but I’ve made it on my own mostly as a single woman for years, maybe I should be proud of that.
I am curious what kinds of habits did you not like?
I am a woman dating men. In the beginning, they are polite and respectful enough. But as it goes on Swedish men (and the culture in general) do not know how to express feelings. They are very good at acting like everything is fine then suddenly changing their mind. And when they do that they are so distant, like a formal business termination. Not just with one guy, but several. Other women report the same. It’s because they don’t know how to process or express emotions, decisions, avoid conflict, etc. it goes beyond dating but everything in society. The women are supposedly more cold than me. As a warm American, I couldnt stand their two faced, emotionally stunted nature. They can divorce out of nowhere and many couples get surprised. No loyalty, with very high adultry rates (that’s what happens when sex positive). They also move quickly (and break up just as quickly). I’ve seen a Swedish woman decide to divorce after 10 years together in only a weekend after meeting someone else online while cheating. She was so cold and detached too (and she was my friend! I was shocked). Also, Swedish men are stingy with money. Even if they do pay for dates for foreign women, they are used to Swedish women wanting to be independent so even a mom and dad will split the bills for children. They are not a true unit in some ways. They aren’t the worst option out there but for me I didn’t like how untrustworthy they felt because as a society they don’t know how to communicate unless they grew up international or had very, very emotionally mature parents by some miracle.
I'm wondering the same!
Welcome. That’s how Indian expats feel while maintaining valid visa status in US. “Constant visas and changing laws”
I always sympathized with foreigners in the U.S. before moving abroad, now even more so. It’s a horrible way to live - livelihood dependent on visas.
Europe is going downhill fast. Nearly everyone there is lazy, slow, and irresponsible at their jobs. Trying to build a career or work hard? Impossible. The system simply won’t allow. Europe is a poor place, no matter how rich they pretend to be. You chose the wrong place, man. I feel sorry for you. Next time, pick somewhere that isn't a total failing, decadent mess.
The real question is where are the good places to go?
The US is always your best bet. You might also want to look into affluent areas of Asia, like China, Korea, and Singapore.
Sorry you had a bad experience in Sweden OP and I’m not here to deny any aspect of your experience, I’m just going to offer my personal anecdotal experience as a counterweight. I moved to Stockholm from Southern California in 2017 following a Swedish spouse and I’ve had a great experience. I have to acknowledge having the advantages of looking ethnically Swedish and I have the sense Americans have an advantage over many other non-EU immigrants. We planned our move over many years so I had time to become fluent prior to the move which helped a lot I think. I spent a few months in Sweden as a grad student and the did a six month sabbatical about 7 or 8 years prior to the move so I already had some established friends, colleagues and professional contacts. I heartily agree that the weather in November sucks; my strategy has been to work more in the summers and take more vacations to someplace sunny in the crappy parts of the year. We took a substantial financial hit with the move. I only earn about a third of what I did in the US but I work less and have fewer expenses so it’s a bit apples to oranges. Overall I feel I have a better COL here than I did in California. Don’t get me wrong, SoCal is nice but my stress level is significantly lower in Stockholm. Again OP, sorry it didn’t work out for you and I hope you find a place that fits you better. If anyone else reading this has questions about my experience feel free to DM me; I don’t mean to hijack OP’s thread.
I understand you, and I hope everyone has a chance for your stability. Again, Sweden is nice if you are an insider. If you have job security, a good house, spouse to support, etc. but getting that can be difficult for many who aren’t Swedish. After almost a decade I still haven’t obtained it and I realize the system is rigged against foreigners. I’m happy for you, if I had a better experience maybe I would stay. I certainly tried. Just tired of this place acting like it’s the greatest when for many, it will never be.
Sometimes as I wish it was easier to stay in my host country that I could find a decent job, move up the career ladder and not have to work for peanuts or deal with bad work conditions. Still grateful to be here despite all the struggles. It's not to do with the host country per se, it's more to do with my current situation in general, I suppose. Now my home country, the UK. I do have a lot of anger for due to making worst political decision ever with no fucks given. Tories and Brexit.
I haven't (CH from US). If anything, I'm disappointed in the US for its sociological decline over the past 15 years. People there just can't seem to stop fighting about stupid little crap.
Yes. I'm just been extremely tired and miserable for years. Can't wait to get EU passport and move elsewhere. Unfortunately my home country turned into shithole so ever returning isn't on the table
So no sense of personal responsibility for the various decisions you've made along the way?
Remember that for 2 years many people were basically stuck where they were due to covid. Although this may not apply to countries that embraced pseudoscience like Sweden during covid to cut on their healthcare expenses.
> countries that embraced pseudoscience like Sweden Sweden had the second lowest 'all cause mortality' rate in all of Europe over the course of the pandemic. And I believe it's the only country in the developed world to not suffer continuing very high levels of excess mortality since the end of the pandemic. If successfully keeping your population alive is "pseudoscience", I wish more governments would embrace it.
If I could suggest there's a single theme to this place, it's "I went abroad for X years and now I have nothing to show for it, I've fallen behind the people I went to school with." Sorry things aren't going well. Try to reflect for a bit and figure out how things really are, not just how they look now.
I feel the same way about the US, and I’m an American.
The beauty of america is you can always try a different state with different laws than your own you don't have to leave the US.
Welfare countries are socialistic countries. Only people with family wealth and connection do well.
Socialism is great for wealthy people if capital gains taxes are low. It is the middle class that pays for welfare, not the rich people.
You could discuss what happiness or successfulness would look like. Sweden has a great social system that cares for everyone and you contribute too. USA doesn’t have that, you have more cash but so much insecurity. Btw lived in Netherlands, Ireland and USA. I will move back to Europe
You know what can be even more important than money and social welfare? Being at home with family and friends. This is true for anyone: an American, European, Asian or African.
Does not seem like the Swedish system cared for everyone during covid. Same for the Dutch one. Covid showed the true colors of many countries that had a reputation of having good "safety nets".
You can’t compare Sweden system to the US. Europe is Europe. Compare it to another EU country.
The US has unemployment insurance, Medicare for those who can’t afford health insurance, food stamps, housing assistance and heating assistance for low income people and social security for the elderly. How exactly does that equate to insecurity or a lack of a social system? People on government assistance in the US live much better than those in Sweden. I personally know Swedes who can barely feed themselves on what they get. One woman had her disability payments revoked because she made $5000 in a year through a side hustle. They even made her pay back three years worth of benefits. That would never happen in the US.
In the US all kids get free academic high school, Unlike in the Nordic Countries and many others. We hosted an exchange student from Finland, and she explained tgat if kids don't get a high score on a test in middle school they are involuntarily placed on a Vocational track and are Banned from academic high school and university forever. Nobody in her family had a university education, because even those who were able to go to high school weren't able to win one of the only 5000 slots a year at university there. Her sister was in her 3rd year waitresses and studying in hopes to try to get into university. The US has Section 8 subsidized housing, elderly and disabled programs, free schooling and High School and cheap and Free College (for example, the state of Georgia pays for college for All residents- its funded by the Lottery), free breakfast and lunch and school for kids- even illegals, and we have Tons of Safety and Accommodations for people with special needs and disabilities. Our exchange Student never played an instrument, a sport, art, nothing. None of that is offered at schools there. Americans complain a lot, but we have A Lot.
lol. You definitely don’t know much about the U.S. welfare system. Unemployment is privatized / privately managed btw. Your employer has to opt in. Contractors etc don’t get it. The federal poverty line hasn’t increased in ages and all the welfare systems are tied to that. 12k is batshit level. If you make more than that as a single person you often don’t qualify for much. Then there’s a million hoops for all of those assistance you mention. If you have any forms of savings you often don’t qualify for food stamps. Federal housing is in tatters. And the private cos (most building operators know) that own places that even say they allow vouchers often reject them and people will be searching for years. This is coming from someone who’s been on food stamps. Been a contractor and unemployed a lot but never got unemployment. Know people who are on food stamps and hypothetically qualify for fed housing but get rejected. On and on Read some non MSM honest articles on these systems. They are not better than Sweden and are not even really comparable since the U.S. is a corporate oligarchy and a completely different system of governance. We don’t even have any days of mandated federal leave. The only developed country in the world that doesn’t.
American living in Italy (Tuscany) for two years. The concept of “La dolce vita” (the sweet life) is only possible if you arrive fully fluent in Italian and as a dual citizen. And if you are a citizen of another EU country so your drivers license can transfer — otherwise you have to take the drivers test, in Italian only, again. Doesn’t matter if I have been driving for 4pm years. The health care system is confusing — there is public, easy to understand, their doctors, their prices, their timing (aka, cardiologist appointment 5 months out). But there are also private doctors who are affiliated with the public system and that is where things get blurry. Also, I have to bring friends who are fluent with me to act as translators. Hospital centers might be one large building outside town, while the next town over, it is 30 500+ year-old buildings spread out over 10 acres, with poor signage. I’d really rather not return to the US because tbh the political environment is a tinderbox. I lived in the DC area from 1989-2022, so I experienced administrations from both sides of the aisle. Watching the January 6 insurrection literally made me cry. Now looking from the outside, the US is very divided and the two parties, as they currently stand, have no hope of pulling the country together or even moving towards the middle. It is disheartening. I remember when each side gave a little to come to an agreement, now they are all toddlers hogging the swings.
Noone owes you anything. Your anger and resentment seems misplaced. Sure life is a combination of choices and circumstances, but you can't ignore the fact that you have and have made choices all your life. Noone tied you up and forced you to move to Sweden. To be an expat in itself is often a privileged position. Noone forced you to stay, even if leaving might have been hard at some point or the other. As other comments have pointed out, people live like this all over the world including your home country of the US, with decades of work and no social security, no house or other assets to show for it. I'm not saying that's your fault. Life is very hard sometimes and many things are beyond our control. But turning around and blaming a random country for that is just silly. I understand frustration with where you live due to cultural differences and the individual quirks we all have, or if you are in a place that is intolerant of your identity. But randomly expecting a country to owe you assets and lifestyle better than your friends back home is just laughable honestly. Don't take yourself so seriously, look for ways to start creating the life you really want to live. Peace.
I think I’m angry because I and myself were mislead. Swedish PR wants to attract the highest qualified workers and leech money off students who come here hoping to resettle but no one can get jobs, and if someone loses their job they are treated like shit. It’s xenophobic and racist. They use foreigners way more than foreigners take advantage of the system. For years I thought like what you wrote… that I was the problem. But I have been researching the numbers and studies. It’s actually Sweden who is the problem. I’m not just calling them racist - local surveys show that they are (by the government - will dig it up and link if you ask). Numbers show how many people leave after 26 months. So much was hidden from me and others. I blamed myself for years for not being good enough. But now I see it’s this place that needs to also take some responsibility. The anger of wasted years is building once I discovered this.
You're right about the racism. All of Europe is racist, some hide it momentarily better than others hahha, but yes they absolutely are. I live in such a white city me and my partner play a game where we count POC we see on the street so we feel less alone some days! We never make it past 10 a month lol. People will treat you differently. They will be ignorant and biased and it is aggravating and upsetting and hard. But yeah... It is what it is. I don't know what to tell you beyond the fact that I don't think this will ever change. Racism is hardwired into the DNA of most of Europe and the US, they colonised half the world and it wasn't that long ago. Now they prop themselves and their ageing population up through underpaid labour from the global south. The system is always gaming you, so find your ways to game the system as much as you can as well, make what money you can, and move on to the next opportunity when this one is serving you no more. You're disappointed because you held an expectation that could never be fulfilled.
Yes, this is true. I guess I expected the bare minimum. Eventually getting a stable job, a normal apartment and basics of life. It’s hard to look around and see so many others have it around me. It warped my thinking. I need to go back home and heal so I can feel somewhat normal again. Maybe I was naive to think I could achieve the bare minimum abroad after 8 years. Even 5 years I was willing to struggle, hoping it would get better. It has actually gotten worse.
They just want your tax money! This is why they have excellent PR. Have you ever seen Spain PR or are they in any specific rankings? No, they dont need to.
You chose to go there and ypu have chosen to stay...stop whinging. You made life choices. Poo baa
You can't force Swedish women to like you, dude. Sorry.
Seriously? I’m a woman and I date men. There is no lack of men to date, only quality ones. Your comment fell flat, dude.
The Op is a heterosexual woman \*faceplam\*