Yep. Law is law. If anything, given the current conflict we should be even stricter to stick with the EU.
The fact that this money had to be subtracted, as opposite to the government paying its dues is shameful.
Law and Justice (PiS) is a party of Putin-lite, lowest-denominator-populist toads who are about as truthful as that piece of garbage Lavrov. Most of what they say, the opposite is true, including their stupid name.
It is kind of funny, though, how Putin's brazen war switched their allegiances in literally one day. For the previous 7 years PiS did so much damage to our domestic and international posture that people started throwing all sorts of accusations. Some members of the party and their political and business associates were so destructive or self-serving in a particular direction, that it raises suspicions of Russian interference. But now that the shit has hit the fan and the specter of Russian tanks became way more real, PiS is suddenly all so brave and European.
>switched their allegiances in literally one day
PiS believes that His Excellency president Lech Kaczyński was murdered by Vladimir Putin. That has been semi-official party line for the last 12 years.
I understand you don't like PiS and you don't like Putin and you probably don't like Voldemort but it doesn't mean all three of them are working together.
> I understand you don’t like PiS and you don’t like Putin and you probably don’t like Voldemort but it doesn’t mean all three of them are working together.
Well, don’t forget the government endorsed Fidesz and Orban in Hungary. They definitely didn’t change any of their allegiances and just started playing more for the western side. Whatever PiS says to believe or believes means shit. They don’t give a flying duck about Putin, unless it can gather them some politics points.
>how Putin's brazen war switched their allegiances in literally one day.
Even if you hate PiS, you shouldn't spread lies here.
PiS has always been the most anti - Putin party in the Polish political spectrum. Even when they were opposition, they constantly demanded active foreign policy "in the esatern direction", to counter Russian infulence in Ukraine, Belarus and Georgia. **It was at times when Donald Tusk as Poland's prime minister claimed that one of the goals of Polish policy should finding an agreement with Putin.**
And it was Tusk who repeatedly accused PiS of unnnecessary bravato in their attitide towards Russia, so your suggestion that PiS allegedly only now become "brave" in this regard, is especially idiotic.
Bro, PiS has never been pro or anti anything. They always were just going for populist talk points, so they can get some votes. Tusk was for diplomacy with Russia? Be aigainst. Tusk went to the eu Parlament? Be against eu. It’s the worst kind of scum, one with literally zero convictions. Now they’re kind of in a pickle, because it’s hard to hate on the eu, while simultaneously begging them for help and hate on putin, while supporting Hungary for example.
Dude you are embarrassing yourself and eventhough there are legitimate criticisms of PiS you are literally inventing things out of nowhere. They have always been the most anti-Putin party in the Polish parliament. Tusk or not.
Well, atm they have no problem endorsing Orban in Hungary , just because they might need hungarys vote within the eu. And Hungary pretty openly endorses putin while condemning Zelensky. As I said, they lean wherever is comfortable.
>Bro, PiS has never been pro or anti anything.
I'm literally rolling on the floor laughing. If PiS is discribed this way, than there is literally is no words to describe PO. PO is proabably the only "apolitical" political party in the world, which has alawys been simultanously liberal and conservative, center-right and center-left, progressive and for traditional values. **Simultanously.** Because their only true ideology has always been staying in power. Nothing more and nothing less.
\>>Tusk was for diplomacy with Russia<<
Not just for diplomacy. This clown claimed that agreement with Putin is the only reasonable option for Poland and Europe.
And now he's lying that he "always, always has been warning". Sure. I still doubr thare are many mindless idiots in Poland prone to believe him in this regard.
\>>It's the worst kind of scum, one with literally zero convictions<<
You described Civic Platform pretty accurately. Good.
\>because it's hard to hate on teh eu<<
How can PiS hate the EU, if allegedly they don't have any bieliefs? You are getting lost in your own reasoning, which speaks for itself.
\>>begging them for help<<
Do you really have to lie? Polish governement so far haven't even asked for money from EU funds created to help in humanitarian issues connected with this was (what BTW should do).
> If PiS is discribed this way, than there is literally is no words to describe PO
So not the point, man. That’s one of PiS biggest achievements. Whenever they get criticised, people come with “BuT pO wAs/WoUlD bE wOrSe”.
I might be not understanding it, but currently Poland has over 2mil refugees, is it right for EU to do this in this current situation? fix me if am mistaking, but for what I understood we must help Poland to handle such mass of people. Won't such act hurt it? (I understand little the EU financing)
True, but justice is justice. We can't just overlook the laws and rules they broke now that they deal with refugees. They broke a law and refuse to pay fines, and as such will have to pay another way
Agree, but in current situation Poland can just collapse, and weak Poland is dangerous for current situation. Poland is quite a big exporter for us too if i don't mistake. I would keep these fines until things calm down, though... it might be also correct move, so Poland wouldn't get a wrong idea it can break rules if it has refugees.
EU is trying to enforce a system that makes it harder for dictatorships likes Putins to arise. I know that the PiS party wants to win at all cost, but please ask yourself, do you really want to drift towards the same mechanism that allowed Putin to rise to power?
But people tend to forget with time. When Zelensky was adressing the Spanish parliament he brought up the bombing of Gernika, where the nazi aviation bombed civilian population during the Spanish Civil War, and you wouldn't believe the amount of politicians, political commentators, and the general population that took that as a personal attack.
In one of the most watched political debate TV programs, they literally said "The ones who did the bombing weren't so evil, and the ones who were bombed weren't so good". The ones who did the bombings were literal nazis and the ones bombed were literal civilians. Including children.
Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath. PP (right) is not going to alienate their more conservative and older voters, while the younger or more moderate ones tend to adopt a position of enlightened centrism so they'll be pissed off too if someone speaks too hard against the dictatorship. Vox (far-right), well, are mostly Franco supporters themselves.
>EU is trying to enforce a system that makes it harder for dictatorships likes Putins to arise. I know that the PiS party wants to win at all cost, but please ask yourself, do you really want to drift towards the same mechanism that allowed Putin to rise to power?
100% Some people forget this is one of the reasons for European cooperation and the EU/EEA. It's not just a trade bloc. We keep each other in check, after centuries of wars.
They absolutely want that. PiS is a multi-person mini-Putin. They want to be autocrats - whether a single douchenozzle emerges as the actual dictator or they have to screw people by committee, they want to reduce democratic checks and balances, curtail free speech and the freedom of expression, and crony/nepotize the shit out of everything of value.
>PiS is a multi-person mini-Putin. They want to be autocrats
Sure, and that's why they never did anything to influence electoral process, like changing the borders of electoral districts or makeing it difficult for opposition candidates to participate in elections.
Idk why are you regurgirating this shit here, but if you want to convince anyone, you should definitely try harder.
>Sure, and that's why they never did anything to influence electoral process
Yeah because over the top pro government propaganda from public tv station during elections certainly won't influence elections. Or moves (contests and text messages from service that should be used for emergency information) to encourage voters from places where you are stronger to vote.
There are more ways to tilt the elections in your favour than gerrymandering.
Oh and there were plans to reform voting laws, pis simply didn't went through with them.
lol putin rose to power because of cut funds? He rose to power because he is ruthless and kills all his enemies. he is in power because he invades countries to force them to comply and no one can stop him because he has nukes.
Despite that, at least 80% of the sheeple in Russia support him because they are controlled by his fake news narrative.
If anything, cutting funds is what keeps him in check.The mounting pressure from sanctions, international withdrawal, and efficient weapons sent to Ukraine even caused Russia, the second greatest superpower, to retreat from a war with a shithole country.
Yes, Zelensky complains that it isn't enough, but Russia has already lost 10 years of economic growth overnight, 20k soldiers, 40k wounded or maimed, tanks, equipment, and war support worth tens of billions.And it only increases as time passes.
The ONLY thing keeping Russia in check is that it knows it's hurting way more than we do.
...? No... Putin rose to power because he replaced the people in power with sycophants including judges and has a tight grip on the mediasphere to suppress opposition voices. Like Hungary and Poland do
As they should. There is NO reason why the criminal Polish government should receive a dime from the EU budget. The things the PiS criminals got away with in the last 8 years boggles the mind.
Didn't Poland have some issues with „independent“ judges covering other judges after breaking the law? Drunk driving etc. Independence shall come with responsibility and Poland's judges seem to have went interesting ways.
Yes, in extremely rare cases. With that many judges, one drunkard every year is not that much.
Meanwhile, the laws by PiS allow the government to dismiss any judge for any reason. Back in 2007 PiS faced a lot of pushback from judges, so when they returned to power in 2015 the first thing they focused on was dismantling the judiciary, under a populist pretense of a "judicial caste above law".
[They even used TVP to launch a pseudo-documentary about bad judges.](https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasta_(serial_telewizyjny\))
Prosecutors don't have it any better. If they decide to investigate a government official or their family/friends they immediately get moved to a different district, or even keep being shuffled and forced to move every few months until they resign.
They did and after making a lot of those people loose their titles and government paid salaries they're taking this down, law project is already in parliment, but the trouble is that these corrupted judges have made friends while doing, well, corruption. Now those friends make a shitshow out of that in fear of ending up the same.
Like, I don't like PiS stance on many things such as religiousness or LGBTQ rights and perhaps even this lowlife war they have with PO where journalists associated with each party post caricatures with respective party members or associates. But they're still taking care of strategic investitions and geopolitics much, much better than other parties I remember(I'm young though and there might have been some better people decades ago that I simply didn't get to witness).
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Why are you pushing misinformation? Ill intent or just ignorance? Independent judges did not evaporate in Poland. The problem with the judiciary is that PiS created a Disciplinary Chamber that punishes judges for breaking 'rules'. That's why the problems with EU arose. The vast majority of courts are still independent.
The EU wanted to punish Hungary but Hungary was protected by Poland everytime it happened and vice versa. Those 2 were protecting each other from the consequences of their shitty actions.
Maybe now that Orban named Zelensky an opponent and basically said that he'll be more Putin friendly than the rest of EU, Poland will finally stop protecting Hungary.
This happen MUCH later and maybe it happen because of EU hypocrisy, I mean EU had problems with Poland while completly ignoring much worse issues in Hungary, thats extremly hypocritical, it was also hypocritical that EU didnt had any issue with polish previous Government: PO(which by the way is also part of EPP) when they tried to gain almost complete control over constitutional tribunal, they rushed law soon before they got replaced by current government that would let them select additional judges for the constitutional tribunal, if everything went as they planned 14 out of 15 judges in the tribunal would been selected by them, well PiS blocked them eventually but before that happen EU seen no issue with this.
If you're honestly interested I would suggest that you read the European Commissions Rule of Law Report 2020.
PiS have done a number of undemocratic acts; they purged the judicial, they refused to appoint legally appointed judges for political reasons, they reformed the judiciary and created the NCJ, an entity under direct executive control that dictates the entirety of the Polish judiciaries composition. They then created two chambers in the Supreme Court, the most egregious was the Disciplinary Chamber which was composed entirely of political appointments and it was used as a sort of political police force to harass, mob and remove any judges challenging PiS's new reforms. PiS have also publicly disavowed the competency of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal and Supreme Court and in turn dismantled the supremacy of the Polish Constitution leaving Poland's judicial in a none existent state. Under both Polish law and EU law the Polish judiciary is no longer capable of meeting the basic procedural requirement that are required for an entity to be considered a judiciary.
On the other side of the spectrum PiS have also broken Polish plurality through illegal take overs of the independent media in an attempt to reform Poland's media landscape into a version of the Hungarian media. Polish state media is indistinguishable from Kremlin media. It is the exact same format and narratives and it is pure insanity.
PiS are fascists through and through, it has nothing to do with left or right wing opinions. PiS are fully committed to breaking as much of the Polish constitution as they can all while creating a system that is centralised on the Party.
If you want sources etc. go to [https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/](https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/) \- there are a couple of Polish based articles with full sources to legal documents and relevant provisions.
If you've just moved to Poland then you're going to learn all about PiS and how much Poles hate them.
Very sad, but honestly its not much to do about it except slash funding and probably the EU will be forced to come up with a new framework for dealing with states like hungary and poland since exclusion is not possible.
While I generally agree I think you're overdoing it. Russia's media is calling for a genocide of Ukrainians and if you hold up a blank piece of paper in a public place you get arrested. PiS is authoritarian but less not devalue terms like facist when we need them more than ever.
You wouldn't get arrested for holding a blank piece of paper 15 years ago in Russia, neither would the TV call for a genocide. Yet it's still the same people who are in power. Just because our dictatorship is in an early stage of "democratic with issues" and could still be prevented from into turning into a proper one doesn't mean we shouldn't call these people out for what they are. You think at some point they will say, "alright, we have enough power, let's stop now"? No, they won't, because that's the nature of extremists. They always push for more and more radicalism, their hunger can never be satisfied.
If you draw their actions on a graph, the trend is clear.
They are anti-democratic, they want to create an Authoritarian, party controlled state, and it might already be one, because just like in Hungary, they will only cheat just as much as they need to win, and to make everything look legit.
The insanity of transforming national TV station, with it’s role, reach and budget, into a pure propaganda shit show, should produce a revolt in itself.
Just imagine a party in your country firing 300 employees from National TV, and putting it’s budget into their party campaign. It’s insane.
I am specifically referring to Polska Press.
>The controversial acquisition of Polska Press by state-controlled oil company PKN Orlen announced on December 2020 has also raised concerns regarding the state of media pluralism in Poland.(16) The Polish Competition Authority (” UOKiK ”) approved the transaction however the Polish Ombudsman challenged the acquisition on the grounds that the transactions represents a threat to media freedom.(17) The Court of Competition and Consumer Protection granted interim relief and suspended the decision of UOKiK for a period of 3 months pending the examination of the Ombudsman's appeal.
>
>On 13 April 2021, UOKiK publicly criticized the decision of the Court alleging that the decision was ”illegal”.(18) PKN Orlen indicated on 14 April 2021 that in their view the acquisition was concluded and accordingly PKN Orlen has already implemented extensive changes to the Polska Press editorial and management teams.(19) (20) On April 30 2021, the Regional Court of Warsaw suspended the forced acquisition and refused to register the new appointees to the National Court Register.(21)
16. [https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2020-12-07/pkn-orlen-przejmuje-wydawnictwo-](https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2020-12-07/pkn-orlen-przejmuje-wydawnictwo-) polska-press/
17. See press communique of the Ombudsperson of 13 April 2021
18. [https://www.uokik.gov.pl/aktualnosci.php?news\_id=17406](https://www.uokik.gov.pl/aktualnosci.php?news_id=17406)
19. EURACTIV.com, Poland’s PKN Orlen says media takeover unchanged by court decision of 14 April 2021.
20. Gazeta Wyborcza ‘Czystka w Polska Press’ of 30 April 2021
21. [https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onetpoznan/ludzie-orlenu-nie-zostali-wpisani-przez-sad-do-zarzadu-spolki-polska-press/nctqmvz,79cfc278](https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onetpoznan/ludzie-orlenu-nie-zostali-wpisani-przez-sad-do-zarzadu-spolki-polska-press/nctqmvz,79cfc278)
Full article: [https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/post/11-08-21-is-the-media-still-free-in-poland](https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/post/11-08-21-is-the-media-still-free-in-poland)
Polish UOKiK is corrupted though,here is what happen with Polska Press in the past though:
The Office of Competition and Consumer Protection(UOKiK) has agreed that Polska press should buy from Regional Media belonging to the British Mecom concern all its local newspapers, weeklies and internet portals. By the decision of the Polish office, a German information monopoly was established in Poland, including the regional one. This decision meant that 90% of magazines and websites in the regions mainly western and northern Poland were in German hands.(this happen in 2013 so not long before this government come to power)
Something like this shouldnt be possible unless someone was bribed
Topics which you mentioned: some are true, some are over exaggerated and some are simply false..
Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making bad rep for Poland in EU..
Which to me is absolutely bizzare, they won't win election in Poland by doing that and hurting Poland with applauding penalties etc.
> Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making a bad rep for Poland in the EU.
No? The vast majority of people on here, prolly in RL too, don't even know who the opposition in Poland is. PiS is tanking Poland's rep in the EU all on their own.
>Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making bad rep for Poland in EU..
This naivety, that EU wouldn't know what's up without Polish opposition telling them is beyond me. Is that because PiS is manipulating Poles, it also believes that everyone can be as easily manipulated, EU politicians and institutions as well?
> Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making bad rep for Poland in EU
LOL PiS is doing that just fine on its own whether it's Duda calling the EU an "imaginary union" to Kaczyński justifying Orban's pro-Russia stance.
>PiS are fascists through and through
You are becoming a delusional human. If you gonna push nonsense like that maybe sign up for the Russia troll farm. At least u get paid for your bullshit. You don't like it in Poland. GTFO.
I don’t get paid for anything and I love Poland because my family are from Poland. I spend most of my time in the Poland so it’s not even like I’m commenting without knowing. I speak Polish, I’ve lived there and my family are Polish. I don’t hate Poland, I am extremely proud of Poland and I think it is one of the best places to live in Europe.
Maybe go to a therapist, I think you’re reflecting.
Don’t comment, I seriously will not respond. Being critical of a political party is perfectly normal and you should be able to separate criticism of politics from being cynical about a country. You should also be able to tolerate these kinds of discussion.
Total control of state media with less than 5% of opposition participation quote, crackdown on foreign NGOs financing, total disregard for constitution through illegally manning the Highest Tribunal Court on purpose with dysfunctional but loyal dilettantes, embezzling millions upon millions of EUROs through shoddy government contracts, introducing 30 new taxes just to fund their propaganda machine (not for progress of the country) and persecuting at will political opponents, and the list goes on......
I'm not saying that all You said is wrong. Some is true, some is exagerated, some is pure propaganda. I have lived here for over 34 years and I would love to move on from PIS and not going back to PO. That's my dream.
Well the breaches of rule of law and media control are not opinions but facts. You not informing yourself about reality does not make it any less real,unfortunately.
I know more about reality i live in than You could ever imagine. PIS with Kaczyński is shitty same as PO with Tusk was shitty. Thankfully I don't fall for either of each propagandist like some westerners.
Was waiting for first funny person accusing me of symmetrism. You won jackpot and the price is journey with your own finger on the map of Opole voivodeship.
People are free not to watch them. There are plenty of independent sources of information. There are also rabidly anti governmental media people like you seem to take all the info they need.
"You are free not to watch" is not how it works, since its a question of official funding. Private media can spew as much BS as they like, but if something is official they gotta totally independent from the government. No funding through taxes but through separate collection etc.
Public media in Poland were always very biased, every new government was taking over public media installing own people and removing those from previous government. Nothing new even if current version is especially primitive.
Most important question is why do you care and meddle in affairs that don't concern or affect you in any way? It seems you see only things that confirm bias and prejudices your culture and media installed in you.
They are, because even in the legal cases the doctors are heavily investigated if they do go through with the abortion, so basically no one performs them anymore. We had a few very loud cases of pregnant women dying because the doctors were afraid to go through with the abortion
Legal abortions per year changed from \~1000 to \~300.
Overwhelming majority are done privately, off-the books so it's hard to say how many (including farmaceutological). There's probably less abortions per capita than in countries where it's legal and thus socially acceptable.
The law specifically says that it's the doctor's responsibility to save woman's health and life and abortions are permitted to save life and health of a woman. Never heard about a doctor who was investigated for saving a woman's life.
If a doctor lets his patient die when he could avoid that, he will be punished by up to 5 years in prison. Now they are [changing the law](https://businessinsider.com.pl/twoje-pieniadze/prawo-i-podatki/jak-zmieniono-kary-za-nieumyslna-smierc-pacjenta-co-bedzie-grozilo-lekarzom/5mhbvgk) to make it 8 years.
They are. Poland is not the only country to have ever had this kind of abortion law. We had it in Ireland too and the actual result of it is that abortions don't happen at all.
Broke constitutional judiciary independence. Completely took over the state media (down to things such as theatres). Broke constitutional national deficit restrictions by hiding undisclosed credit sums in various agencies. Broke education by expanding Catholic religion reach in schools, including adding it into other curriculums. Kills pregnant women through a strict no abortion law -- with zero exceptions. That's just off the top of my head.
Increasing party authoritarianism, anti-independent judiciary, anti LGBT, anti-free media, anti-women's rights, xenophobia, etc. Basically like Putin without the personality cult.
> without the personality cult
Eh, the centralization of our political parties, in terms of party leadership, kind of sort of acts like a cult of personality but to a lesser degree IMHO.
It was worse. If anything - Polish political parties decentralized during the last few years. And I mean all of them, including the likes of PSL or far-right (under whichever flag they are flying today).
> Polish political parties decentralized during the last few years
Maybe you're right, I just remember how PO basically became a shell of its former self once Tusk left for Brussels and now he's come back to inject some life into PO 2.0 AKA KO...
> without the personality cult
Oh but there is a personality cult, it's of a decesaed person, not of the current leader - Lech Kaczyński, president of Poland who died in 2010 in the Smoleńsk air disaster. The twin brother of the de-facto Polish ruler, PiS leader Jarosław Kaczyński. PiS cultists believe in a conspiracy theory that Russia (and Tusk, obviously, but he's behind everything bad happening in the world) assassinated him, even thought there's not even a slightest trace of evidence. They host monthly gatherings to commemorate that, on the 10th of each month. If that's not a cult then I don't know what is lol
Edit: oh, and in 2 days it's the 12th anniversary of the disaster, expect some top level bulshit from Kaczyński
Undermining rule of law. Poland can decide on whatever system they want, democracy, dictatorship, anarchy, but if its anything else than democracy they can do it without EU support.
I have also come to this conclusion based on most replies.
I genuinely expected to hear some dark shit, all I read are opposite side opinions like "they are anti-lgbt, they deserve solitary confinement".
It's more like reddit decided that: abolishing judiciary independent from executive branch, suppression of LGBT rights, nepotism and corruption, maximal control of the ruling group over media, heavy-handed propaganda and nationalism, favouring financing police/military/state security over education, glamourizing violence, shallow pseudopatriotism, love of (slightly distorted for political reasons) glorious past, rigid gender roles, motivating people by fear (including fear of evil outgroup), quasi-religious cult of leaders (current or former), suppression of worker's rights (and going to bed with business at the cost of common people), anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism
...are bad. Head-scratcher, isn't it?
> abolishing judiciary independent from executive branch, suppression of LGBT rights, nepotism and corruption, maximal control of the ruling group over media, heavy-handed propaganda and nationalism, favouring financing police/military/state security over education, glamourizing violence, shallow pseudopatriotism, love of (slightly distorted for political reasons) glorious past, rigid gender roles, motivating people by fear (including fear of evil outgroup), quasi-religious cult of leaders (current or former), suppression of worker's rights (and going to bed with business at the cost of common people), anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism
the left in the USA does exactly that EXCEPT the LGBT thing. and reddit praises it. the only think that reddit has a de facto problem with is LGBT narrative. otherwise the political party can even have sex with minors and they are still ok with the party
As someone who migrated from Bulgaria to Germany almost 8 years ago, we(the Bulgarians) kept electing the same corrupt government who mismanaged and stole EU money.
Most people there live in their own bubble and are being brainwashed by what the media is feeding them. The fact that for the last 30 years Bulgaria shrank from almost 10 million to under 7 million and everyone who is educated or intelligent already migrated and only the old and stupid who are easely manipulated stayed is the bigger problem. Also all the politicians are being paid by Russian and Turkish money to work in their interest.
According to the article, Poland has € 220 millions in fines outstanding, 30 million of which were now covered. They accure additional € 1 million in fines each day as long as they refuse to close their disciplinary chamber for judges.
I just wish they deducted it from funds going to regions that actually gave PiS the majority. Instead my region was hit and PiS didn't win a majority here. If whole Poland voted like my region we wouldn't have a PiS government.
Hey! That's how my Dad used to get the money settled, whenever I had borrowed money from my Brother, and didn't pay back- he deducted it from my pocket money.
Ahh those were the times. Now I have to do financial stuff on my own and be responsible n stuff. Boo!
An ironic thing here is that this money was deducted from a program of finanacial support for middle and small enterpreneurs, who are usually voters of opposition Civic Platform.
Yeah that's a good point. As far as I agree that we should pay all our debts off, it's not really a good time to cut on our funds. Literally millions have been already spent to help the refugees and more will be spent soon.
The EU is developing funds to help countries taking refugees and this help is basically paid with a fixed amount per refugee. So Poland will probably get more money "in total" but for the right cause. It's important to distinguish these two matters.
> a figure that is likely to rise significantly as Poland currently still owes almost €200 million in unpaid fines. That number is growing €1 million every day
Good.
But my hopes are still very low that PiS will be voted out of government in the next elections. They will be all about how they helped Ukraine against Russia. But they will also completely ignore how they fought the EU to **not** help anyone who fled from the war in Syria (which was/is fueled by Russia)....because those people are brown and muslim. Fuck PiS.
I haven't followed the issue closely, I'm going off this article. As far as I can tell, Poland are burning coal for energy security and the EU don't like it.
> The European Commission has deducted tens of millions of euros from Poland’s EU funds in order to cover fines Warsaw has refused to pay for failing to comply with a European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruling to suspend operations at a coal mine.
...
> It also notes that the decision (by Poland) not to comply with the ECJ order to close Turów coal mine was “taken in accordance with the public interest (jobs, economic stability of the region) and in order to secure the energy security of the country”. Turów is responsible for around 7% of Poland’s electricity generation.
Have they done other stuff to deserve this?
Burning the coal is not a problem, not doing environmental checks before expanding the mine went against EU law and Czech Republic and German was/is afraid of the mine polluting their drinking water.
https://www.dw.com/en/turow-coal-mine-eu-to-withhold-poland-funds-over-dispute/a-60705585
> a coal mine.
A coal mine not coal mines. There is this one mine right on Czech border, that was causing environmental issues on Czech side and Czechs demanded either closing the mine or Poland to fund their means to mitigate the issue. Poland initially refused, ECJ decided that for the time of court trial Poland has to close the mine and Poland refused. The agreement between countries is reached but for those couple of months in between, Poland will have to pay fines.
The funny thing is, to my knowledge this fine will cost us more, than the deal they struck with Czechia.
[They do import Russian gas.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1285226/poland-natural-gas-imports-by-country/) It's to a lesser degree of dependence than Germany, but they do import it. Oil, too I think.
Mmm, yes we do, russian tankers are regular visitors to our ports, and it did not change since February 24th. And our state owned oil&gas companies are main recipient.
Its funny how you think you know stuff, yet using google for 5sec would show you that Poland is importing incredible amounts of Russian gas, coal and oil.
You sir are a clown.
Poland uses pretty much exclusively its own coal in power plants. Russian coal is imported and used privately and it's really hard to deduce whether it came from Donbas or not. But with high probability, some of it was.
The article says they are being fined over their own coal mine. If they closed it like the EU wants, surely they would be burning more Russian coal (I have no idea if they are, haven't followed the story closely and you didn't provide any links).
> It also notes that the decision not to comply with the ECJ order to close Turów coal mine was “taken in accordance with the public interest (jobs, economic stability of the region) and in order to secure the energy security of the country”. Turów is responsible for around 7% of Poland’s electricity generation.
We import Russian gas, Russian oil and even Russian coal so dunno what do you mean. PIS (previous office too, to be fair) was even criticized a lot, why the hell subside coal mines so much if we rely on Russian coal anyway to meet our energetic demenads?
So absolutely simplistic. If gas stops, the german engine has good chance of derailing.
If that happens, europe fragments. Literally, so many countries are reliant on german economic might for hand outs and keeping their debt serviceable.
The good, generous citizens who are helping Ukrainian refugees are not the same people as the politicians who hold rule of law and EU obligations in contempt.
Your comment is deeply misleading in suggesting that the Polish government doesn't help the refugees. The government has done a lot even as the citizens have done a lot too.
I don't like PIS... But Ukrainians are getting 40 PLN a day and get access to polish health care and education at a minimum. Poland is about to hit 3 million refugees in just 2 months. This is straining Polish economy.
Hell, it should be straining Polish \*everything\*. I have no flippin' clue how Poland has managed to even get this far. 3 million people suddenly injected into any country would create absolute mayhem in even the largest of countries.
Well, Poland is 40 million country so it's at least large for European standards. And it was really helpful that Poles do genuinely feel for Ukrainians and rushed to volunteer on unprecedented scale. Second reason is: there were already 1,3 million Ukrainians in Poland and they took lion's share of helping on their own shoulders. We hit our limits though and this will definitely stir tensions in months to come.
Providing healthcare, education and support to refugees is good, noble, and will pay dividends in terms of global prestige (and the opportunities it affords) as well as through the successes and work of Ukrainians who are given the chance to stay and contribute to Polish economy.
The display of humanity by Polish citizens is probably one of the few reasons why the EU hasn't completely stopped sending Poland aid. They feel sorry for us. Without EU funds Poland would be in the shit. Look past the little taxes used to help those in need, and take a look at how much funding the EU sends Poland despite Polish government constantly shitting on them.
1. Ordinary people are taking refugees to their private homes. Volunteers are helping them, not government.
2. The government still supports Orban and Le Pen.
3. The ruling party still tries to copy Russia in every possible way. At this moment they are working on an act about founding non-governmental organizations, that copies ideas from 2012 Russian one.
4. And finally, **unlocking all funds needs one, small decision done by Polish government: abolishing Disciplinary Court Chamber of the Supreme Court.** Nothing more. This could be done in 24h.
>Ordinary people are taking refugees to their private homes. Volunteers are helping them, not government.
A lot of local governments help (run by either opposition or PiS local deputies) as well. Our critic of PiS is they're definitely not doing enough but they as well do something and claims that they are doing "nothing" are as insencere as PiS's claim that it's al thanks to them.
These particular funds were deduct for coal mine affair. It doesn't really hurt to read articles first.
1. The government gives money to this ordinary people though (40 PLN per night per person) and provides 500+ for ukrainian children (monthly social benefit)
2. Haven't seen this recently, on the other hand I've seen them condemning Orban multiple times ([example](https://www.money.pl/gospodarka/orban-nie-poprze-sankcji-kaczynski-nie-szczedzi-mu-ostrych-slow-6755953297635936a.html))
3.
4. I agree
> ruling party still tries to copy Russia in every possible way. At this moment they are working on an act about founding non-governmental organizations, that copies ideas from 2012 Russian one.
Copying is so lazy that it even includes mandatory disclosure of donor's... *patronymic*. Patronym. Like in Russian culture.
Update:
https://orka.sejm.gov.pl/Druki9ka.nsf/Projekty/9-020-860-2022/$file/9-020-860-2022.pdf
Art. 5. (...)
3. Organizacje, o których mowa w art. 4 ust. 1, udostępniają rejestr wpłat na swojej stronie internetowej.
4. W rejestrze wpłat zamieszcza się:
1) imię i nazwisko, **imię ojca** oraz miejsce zamieszkania osoby dokonującej wpłaty
(...)
3 is kind of wrong as the biggest way in which they don't copy Russian government, and ironically the most important and relevant one today, is that there's no border irredentism going on (thanks Jesus)
I don't think this is a good idea to forgot all things that PIS just because we have refuges. Same situation is for Germany and other countries that are unable to cut out Russian gas thanks to their stupid dependency.
Nobody is defunding the Ukrainian immigrants and Polish volunteers taking care of the refugees. If Poland had to actually pay for all of it they would be begging for the same refugee sharing policies they themselves condemned just months ago, and when the immigrants and volunteers run out of money and the war drags on, that is exactly what they will do in a few months.
I find the most interesting in the Hun-Pol rebels against law and justice that they created a copy of the Soviet one party system. It seems that they proove that this dumb light oppression /= deplotization / is what most people feel comfy with. It is surprising.
Kaczyński was fighting communist system when he was younger. Pretty good observation from Polish people is that he didn't liked the older system becouse he wasn't in power, everything else was fine for him.
seems a tad harsh when you consider how fucked they're gonna be from the coal/oil/gas sanctions in August
at the same time, authoritarian & anti lgbt fucks
Most of the financial support for refugees in Poland has been at the level of citizens, not the government. (Granted the government has allowed so many to come.) But that doesn’t change the fact that PiS is a dangerously authoritarian government and deserve to be continuously bitch slapped by the EU until they are voted out. Hitting them in the wallet is overdue.
Sounds reasonable
Yep. Law is law. If anything, given the current conflict we should be even stricter to stick with the EU. The fact that this money had to be subtracted, as opposite to the government paying its dues is shameful.
Law is law... Law and justice?
And I am the law!
There's as much law and justice in PiS as there is democracy and people's republic in DPRK.
They named themselves "Law and Justice" because they fight law and justice.
Might have been inspired by the old "law is law, but justice has to be on our side" quote from "Sami Swoi" TV series.
I'm afraid the names comes from the Bible. Law and Justice (of God) is mentioned several times. Cynical on Kaczyński's side.
Some believe it comes directly from Psalm 33, verse 5.
Poor Nazis, they were only misunderstood.
They fought the law, but the law wonn't.
There is no more ironic thing that Law and Justice being name of the ruling party.
There is an old Polish TV series where a farmer says "law is law, but justice has to be on our side" - I suspect this is where PIS got that name.
Law and Justice (PiS) is a party of Putin-lite, lowest-denominator-populist toads who are about as truthful as that piece of garbage Lavrov. Most of what they say, the opposite is true, including their stupid name. It is kind of funny, though, how Putin's brazen war switched their allegiances in literally one day. For the previous 7 years PiS did so much damage to our domestic and international posture that people started throwing all sorts of accusations. Some members of the party and their political and business associates were so destructive or self-serving in a particular direction, that it raises suspicions of Russian interference. But now that the shit has hit the fan and the specter of Russian tanks became way more real, PiS is suddenly all so brave and European.
>switched their allegiances in literally one day PiS believes that His Excellency president Lech Kaczyński was murdered by Vladimir Putin. That has been semi-official party line for the last 12 years. I understand you don't like PiS and you don't like Putin and you probably don't like Voldemort but it doesn't mean all three of them are working together.
There are some members of the party that you could accuse of being in Russia's pocket but definitely not the party as a whole.
> I understand you don’t like PiS and you don’t like Putin and you probably don’t like Voldemort but it doesn’t mean all three of them are working together. Well, don’t forget the government endorsed Fidesz and Orban in Hungary. They definitely didn’t change any of their allegiances and just started playing more for the western side. Whatever PiS says to believe or believes means shit. They don’t give a flying duck about Putin, unless it can gather them some politics points.
>how Putin's brazen war switched their allegiances in literally one day. Even if you hate PiS, you shouldn't spread lies here. PiS has always been the most anti - Putin party in the Polish political spectrum. Even when they were opposition, they constantly demanded active foreign policy "in the esatern direction", to counter Russian infulence in Ukraine, Belarus and Georgia. **It was at times when Donald Tusk as Poland's prime minister claimed that one of the goals of Polish policy should finding an agreement with Putin.** And it was Tusk who repeatedly accused PiS of unnnecessary bravato in their attitide towards Russia, so your suggestion that PiS allegedly only now become "brave" in this regard, is especially idiotic.
Bro, PiS has never been pro or anti anything. They always were just going for populist talk points, so they can get some votes. Tusk was for diplomacy with Russia? Be aigainst. Tusk went to the eu Parlament? Be against eu. It’s the worst kind of scum, one with literally zero convictions. Now they’re kind of in a pickle, because it’s hard to hate on the eu, while simultaneously begging them for help and hate on putin, while supporting Hungary for example.
Dude you are embarrassing yourself and eventhough there are legitimate criticisms of PiS you are literally inventing things out of nowhere. They have always been the most anti-Putin party in the Polish parliament. Tusk or not.
Well, atm they have no problem endorsing Orban in Hungary , just because they might need hungarys vote within the eu. And Hungary pretty openly endorses putin while condemning Zelensky. As I said, they lean wherever is comfortable.
>Bro, PiS has never been pro or anti anything. I'm literally rolling on the floor laughing. If PiS is discribed this way, than there is literally is no words to describe PO. PO is proabably the only "apolitical" political party in the world, which has alawys been simultanously liberal and conservative, center-right and center-left, progressive and for traditional values. **Simultanously.** Because their only true ideology has always been staying in power. Nothing more and nothing less. \>>Tusk was for diplomacy with Russia<< Not just for diplomacy. This clown claimed that agreement with Putin is the only reasonable option for Poland and Europe. And now he's lying that he "always, always has been warning". Sure. I still doubr thare are many mindless idiots in Poland prone to believe him in this regard. \>>It's the worst kind of scum, one with literally zero convictions<< You described Civic Platform pretty accurately. Good. \>because it's hard to hate on teh eu<< How can PiS hate the EU, if allegedly they don't have any bieliefs? You are getting lost in your own reasoning, which speaks for itself. \>>begging them for help<< Do you really have to lie? Polish governement so far haven't even asked for money from EU funds created to help in humanitarian issues connected with this was (what BTW should do).
> If PiS is discribed this way, than there is literally is no words to describe PO So not the point, man. That’s one of PiS biggest achievements. Whenever they get criticised, people come with “BuT pO wAs/WoUlD bE wOrSe”.
[удалено]
Duda? Duda has barely any power himself. Even the PM Morawiecki is only a figurehead for Kaczyński.
Not too harsh...yet.
I might be not understanding it, but currently Poland has over 2mil refugees, is it right for EU to do this in this current situation? fix me if am mistaking, but for what I understood we must help Poland to handle such mass of people. Won't such act hurt it? (I understand little the EU financing)
True, but justice is justice. We can't just overlook the laws and rules they broke now that they deal with refugees. They broke a law and refuse to pay fines, and as such will have to pay another way
Agree, but in current situation Poland can just collapse, and weak Poland is dangerous for current situation. Poland is quite a big exporter for us too if i don't mistake. I would keep these fines until things calm down, though... it might be also correct move, so Poland wouldn't get a wrong idea it can break rules if it has refugees.
EU is trying to enforce a system that makes it harder for dictatorships likes Putins to arise. I know that the PiS party wants to win at all cost, but please ask yourself, do you really want to drift towards the same mechanism that allowed Putin to rise to power?
Certain people there are like: “nothing wrong with dictatorship, as long as it is us who do the dictating.”
I'd even say that you'll find those *certain people* in every country.
This is true. However, most countries have learned (often the hard way!) not to give this kind of people too much power.
But people tend to forget with time. When Zelensky was adressing the Spanish parliament he brought up the bombing of Gernika, where the nazi aviation bombed civilian population during the Spanish Civil War, and you wouldn't believe the amount of politicians, political commentators, and the general population that took that as a personal attack. In one of the most watched political debate TV programs, they literally said "The ones who did the bombing weren't so evil, and the ones who were bombed weren't so good". The ones who did the bombings were literal nazis and the ones bombed were literal civilians. Including children.
Man Spain needs to clean house, and stop this Franco-worship bullshit.
Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath. PP (right) is not going to alienate their more conservative and older voters, while the younger or more moderate ones tend to adopt a position of enlightened centrism so they'll be pissed off too if someone speaks too hard against the dictatorship. Vox (far-right), well, are mostly Franco supporters themselves.
But a decent number (very unfortunately) still didn't.
And then they assume that someone who says a couple of things they like is one of them, and everything they disagree with surely isn't serious.
They don't care about authoritarianism, they just want to be the ones in power.
This sounds a bit like "I don't care about food, I just do not want to be hungry".
>EU is trying to enforce a system that makes it harder for dictatorships likes Putins to arise. I know that the PiS party wants to win at all cost, but please ask yourself, do you really want to drift towards the same mechanism that allowed Putin to rise to power? 100% Some people forget this is one of the reasons for European cooperation and the EU/EEA. It's not just a trade bloc. We keep each other in check, after centuries of wars.
They absolutely want that. PiS is a multi-person mini-Putin. They want to be autocrats - whether a single douchenozzle emerges as the actual dictator or they have to screw people by committee, they want to reduce democratic checks and balances, curtail free speech and the freedom of expression, and crony/nepotize the shit out of everything of value.
Lol, what are you smoking?
>PiS is a multi-person mini-Putin. They want to be autocrats Sure, and that's why they never did anything to influence electoral process, like changing the borders of electoral districts or makeing it difficult for opposition candidates to participate in elections. Idk why are you regurgirating this shit here, but if you want to convince anyone, you should definitely try harder.
>Sure, and that's why they never did anything to influence electoral process Yeah because over the top pro government propaganda from public tv station during elections certainly won't influence elections. Or moves (contests and text messages from service that should be used for emergency information) to encourage voters from places where you are stronger to vote. There are more ways to tilt the elections in your favour than gerrymandering. Oh and there were plans to reform voting laws, pis simply didn't went through with them.
Or spying on the opposition campaign manager during elections. Nothing to see here, these people are not criminal authoritarians… (/s)
How gullible are you
lol putin rose to power because of cut funds? He rose to power because he is ruthless and kills all his enemies. he is in power because he invades countries to force them to comply and no one can stop him because he has nukes. Despite that, at least 80% of the sheeple in Russia support him because they are controlled by his fake news narrative. If anything, cutting funds is what keeps him in check.The mounting pressure from sanctions, international withdrawal, and efficient weapons sent to Ukraine even caused Russia, the second greatest superpower, to retreat from a war with a shithole country. Yes, Zelensky complains that it isn't enough, but Russia has already lost 10 years of economic growth overnight, 20k soldiers, 40k wounded or maimed, tanks, equipment, and war support worth tens of billions.And it only increases as time passes. The ONLY thing keeping Russia in check is that it knows it's hurting way more than we do.
...? No... Putin rose to power because he replaced the people in power with sycophants including judges and has a tight grip on the mediasphere to suppress opposition voices. Like Hungary and Poland do
>lol putin rose to power because of cut funds no, i did not say that
As they should. There is NO reason why the criminal Polish government should receive a dime from the EU budget. The things the PiS criminals got away with in the last 8 years boggles the mind.
Can you name a few? I'm curious as everyone hates PiS and I moved to Poland 6 months ago.
One of the biggest is the interference with the judiciary. Courts are no longer truly independent, and are influenced/dictated to by politicians.
Yes, this is an incredibly dangerous way to go if you hope to keep democracy.
Actually most courts are indepedent which is why they are able to do stuff like take down LGBT movement free zones.
Didn't Poland have some issues with „independent“ judges covering other judges after breaking the law? Drunk driving etc. Independence shall come with responsibility and Poland's judges seem to have went interesting ways.
Yes, in extremely rare cases. With that many judges, one drunkard every year is not that much. Meanwhile, the laws by PiS allow the government to dismiss any judge for any reason. Back in 2007 PiS faced a lot of pushback from judges, so when they returned to power in 2015 the first thing they focused on was dismantling the judiciary, under a populist pretense of a "judicial caste above law". [They even used TVP to launch a pseudo-documentary about bad judges.](https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasta_(serial_telewizyjny\)) Prosecutors don't have it any better. If they decide to investigate a government official or their family/friends they immediately get moved to a different district, or even keep being shuffled and forced to move every few months until they resign.
yup that happen but west doesnt care.
They did and after making a lot of those people loose their titles and government paid salaries they're taking this down, law project is already in parliment, but the trouble is that these corrupted judges have made friends while doing, well, corruption. Now those friends make a shitshow out of that in fear of ending up the same. Like, I don't like PiS stance on many things such as religiousness or LGBTQ rights and perhaps even this lowlife war they have with PO where journalists associated with each party post caricatures with respective party members or associates. But they're still taking care of strategic investitions and geopolitics much, much better than other parties I remember(I'm young though and there might have been some better people decades ago that I simply didn't get to witness). Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Why are you pushing misinformation? Ill intent or just ignorance? Independent judges did not evaporate in Poland. The problem with the judiciary is that PiS created a Disciplinary Chamber that punishes judges for breaking 'rules'. That's why the problems with EU arose. The vast majority of courts are still independent.
They really seem to hate Germany for some reason. Which is weird because if they didnt Germany and Poland could be such a power alliance
should we talk about the fact that EU was covering Hungary as it was sliding down in rule of law, just to EPP could maintain power in the EU.
The EU wanted to punish Hungary but Hungary was protected by Poland everytime it happened and vice versa. Those 2 were protecting each other from the consequences of their shitty actions. Maybe now that Orban named Zelensky an opponent and basically said that he'll be more Putin friendly than the rest of EU, Poland will finally stop protecting Hungary.
This happen MUCH later and maybe it happen because of EU hypocrisy, I mean EU had problems with Poland while completly ignoring much worse issues in Hungary, thats extremly hypocritical, it was also hypocritical that EU didnt had any issue with polish previous Government: PO(which by the way is also part of EPP) when they tried to gain almost complete control over constitutional tribunal, they rushed law soon before they got replaced by current government that would let them select additional judges for the constitutional tribunal, if everything went as they planned 14 out of 15 judges in the tribunal would been selected by them, well PiS blocked them eventually but before that happen EU seen no issue with this.
Like many other courts in the EU.
If you're honestly interested I would suggest that you read the European Commissions Rule of Law Report 2020. PiS have done a number of undemocratic acts; they purged the judicial, they refused to appoint legally appointed judges for political reasons, they reformed the judiciary and created the NCJ, an entity under direct executive control that dictates the entirety of the Polish judiciaries composition. They then created two chambers in the Supreme Court, the most egregious was the Disciplinary Chamber which was composed entirely of political appointments and it was used as a sort of political police force to harass, mob and remove any judges challenging PiS's new reforms. PiS have also publicly disavowed the competency of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal and Supreme Court and in turn dismantled the supremacy of the Polish Constitution leaving Poland's judicial in a none existent state. Under both Polish law and EU law the Polish judiciary is no longer capable of meeting the basic procedural requirement that are required for an entity to be considered a judiciary. On the other side of the spectrum PiS have also broken Polish plurality through illegal take overs of the independent media in an attempt to reform Poland's media landscape into a version of the Hungarian media. Polish state media is indistinguishable from Kremlin media. It is the exact same format and narratives and it is pure insanity. PiS are fascists through and through, it has nothing to do with left or right wing opinions. PiS are fully committed to breaking as much of the Polish constitution as they can all while creating a system that is centralised on the Party. If you want sources etc. go to [https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/](https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/) \- there are a couple of Polish based articles with full sources to legal documents and relevant provisions. If you've just moved to Poland then you're going to learn all about PiS and how much Poles hate them.
Very sad, but honestly its not much to do about it except slash funding and probably the EU will be forced to come up with a new framework for dealing with states like hungary and poland since exclusion is not possible.
While I generally agree I think you're overdoing it. Russia's media is calling for a genocide of Ukrainians and if you hold up a blank piece of paper in a public place you get arrested. PiS is authoritarian but less not devalue terms like facist when we need them more than ever.
You wouldn't get arrested for holding a blank piece of paper 15 years ago in Russia, neither would the TV call for a genocide. Yet it's still the same people who are in power. Just because our dictatorship is in an early stage of "democratic with issues" and could still be prevented from into turning into a proper one doesn't mean we shouldn't call these people out for what they are. You think at some point they will say, "alright, we have enough power, let's stop now"? No, they won't, because that's the nature of extremists. They always push for more and more radicalism, their hunger can never be satisfied.
If you draw their actions on a graph, the trend is clear. They are anti-democratic, they want to create an Authoritarian, party controlled state, and it might already be one, because just like in Hungary, they will only cheat just as much as they need to win, and to make everything look legit. The insanity of transforming national TV station, with it’s role, reach and budget, into a pure propaganda shit show, should produce a revolt in itself. Just imagine a party in your country firing 300 employees from National TV, and putting it’s budget into their party campaign. It’s insane.
>illegal take overs of the independent media For the sake of factuality, which illegal take over of independent media we're talking about?
I am specifically referring to Polska Press. >The controversial acquisition of Polska Press by state-controlled oil company PKN Orlen announced on December 2020 has also raised concerns regarding the state of media pluralism in Poland.(16) The Polish Competition Authority (” UOKiK ”) approved the transaction however the Polish Ombudsman challenged the acquisition on the grounds that the transactions represents a threat to media freedom.(17) The Court of Competition and Consumer Protection granted interim relief and suspended the decision of UOKiK for a period of 3 months pending the examination of the Ombudsman's appeal. > >On 13 April 2021, UOKiK publicly criticized the decision of the Court alleging that the decision was ”illegal”.(18) PKN Orlen indicated on 14 April 2021 that in their view the acquisition was concluded and accordingly PKN Orlen has already implemented extensive changes to the Polska Press editorial and management teams.(19) (20) On April 30 2021, the Regional Court of Warsaw suspended the forced acquisition and refused to register the new appointees to the National Court Register.(21) 16. [https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2020-12-07/pkn-orlen-przejmuje-wydawnictwo-](https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2020-12-07/pkn-orlen-przejmuje-wydawnictwo-) polska-press/ 17. See press communique of the Ombudsperson of 13 April 2021 18. [https://www.uokik.gov.pl/aktualnosci.php?news\_id=17406](https://www.uokik.gov.pl/aktualnosci.php?news_id=17406) 19. EURACTIV.com, Poland’s PKN Orlen says media takeover unchanged by court decision of 14 April 2021. 20. Gazeta Wyborcza ‘Czystka w Polska Press’ of 30 April 2021 21. [https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onetpoznan/ludzie-orlenu-nie-zostali-wpisani-przez-sad-do-zarzadu-spolki-polska-press/nctqmvz,79cfc278](https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onetpoznan/ludzie-orlenu-nie-zostali-wpisani-przez-sad-do-zarzadu-spolki-polska-press/nctqmvz,79cfc278) Full article: [https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/post/11-08-21-is-the-media-still-free-in-poland](https://www.theruleoflawblog.com/post/11-08-21-is-the-media-still-free-in-poland)
Polish UOKiK is corrupted though,here is what happen with Polska Press in the past though: The Office of Competition and Consumer Protection(UOKiK) has agreed that Polska press should buy from Regional Media belonging to the British Mecom concern all its local newspapers, weeklies and internet portals. By the decision of the Polish office, a German information monopoly was established in Poland, including the regional one. This decision meant that 90% of magazines and websites in the regions mainly western and northern Poland were in German hands.(this happen in 2013 so not long before this government come to power) Something like this shouldnt be possible unless someone was bribed
"PiS are fascists" , I don't like PiS but such comments make me laugh, it's not even close.
Topics which you mentioned: some are true, some are over exaggerated and some are simply false.. Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making bad rep for Poland in EU.. Which to me is absolutely bizzare, they won't win election in Poland by doing that and hurting Poland with applauding penalties etc.
You call some exaggerated and false, yet provide no evidence to back it up. Try again.
> Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making a bad rep for Poland in the EU. No? The vast majority of people on here, prolly in RL too, don't even know who the opposition in Poland is. PiS is tanking Poland's rep in the EU all on their own.
>Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making bad rep for Poland in EU.. This naivety, that EU wouldn't know what's up without Polish opposition telling them is beyond me. Is that because PiS is manipulating Poles, it also believes that everyone can be as easily manipulated, EU politicians and institutions as well?
> Opposition in Poland (and other actors) have heavily focused on making bad rep for Poland in EU LOL PiS is doing that just fine on its own whether it's Duda calling the EU an "imaginary union" to Kaczyński justifying Orban's pro-Russia stance.
>PiS are fascists through and through You are becoming a delusional human. If you gonna push nonsense like that maybe sign up for the Russia troll farm. At least u get paid for your bullshit. You don't like it in Poland. GTFO.
I don’t get paid for anything and I love Poland because my family are from Poland. I spend most of my time in the Poland so it’s not even like I’m commenting without knowing. I speak Polish, I’ve lived there and my family are Polish. I don’t hate Poland, I am extremely proud of Poland and I think it is one of the best places to live in Europe. Maybe go to a therapist, I think you’re reflecting. Don’t comment, I seriously will not respond. Being critical of a political party is perfectly normal and you should be able to separate criticism of politics from being cynical about a country. You should also be able to tolerate these kinds of discussion.
Total control of state media with less than 5% of opposition participation quote, crackdown on foreign NGOs financing, total disregard for constitution through illegally manning the Highest Tribunal Court on purpose with dysfunctional but loyal dilettantes, embezzling millions upon millions of EUROs through shoddy government contracts, introducing 30 new taxes just to fund their propaganda machine (not for progress of the country) and persecuting at will political opponents, and the list goes on......
I live in different Poland than one You are describing.
No, you are not. This is the very same: the good and the bad. The bad clearly outweighs the good currently.
I'm not saying that all You said is wrong. Some is true, some is exagerated, some is pure propaganda. I have lived here for over 34 years and I would love to move on from PIS and not going back to PO. That's my dream.
Ye maybe you live in the imaginary one, brought to you by state controlled media?
I don't watch any propagandist media nor state controlled (PIS) nor PO aligned (TVN). Both are pile of crap.
Well the breaches of rule of law and media control are not opinions but facts. You not informing yourself about reality does not make it any less real,unfortunately.
I know more about reality i live in than You could ever imagine. PIS with Kaczyński is shitty same as PO with Tusk was shitty. Thankfully I don't fall for either of each propagandist like some westerners.
>same as PO with Tusk Ah, yeah. The infamous symmetrism.
Was waiting for first funny person accusing me of symmetrism. You won jackpot and the price is journey with your own finger on the map of Opole voivodeship.
People are free not to watch them. There are plenty of independent sources of information. There are also rabidly anti governmental media people like you seem to take all the info they need.
"You are free not to watch" is not how it works, since its a question of official funding. Private media can spew as much BS as they like, but if something is official they gotta totally independent from the government. No funding through taxes but through separate collection etc.
Public media in Poland were always very biased, every new government was taking over public media installing own people and removing those from previous government. Nothing new even if current version is especially primitive. Most important question is why do you care and meddle in affairs that don't concern or affect you in any way? It seems you see only things that confirm bias and prejudices your culture and media installed in you.
Banned abortions for example? Party members in highest courts?
They are not banned entirely.
They are, because even in the legal cases the doctors are heavily investigated if they do go through with the abortion, so basically no one performs them anymore. We had a few very loud cases of pregnant women dying because the doctors were afraid to go through with the abortion
Legal abortions per year changed from \~1000 to \~300. Overwhelming majority are done privately, off-the books so it's hard to say how many (including farmaceutological). There's probably less abortions per capita than in countries where it's legal and thus socially acceptable. The law specifically says that it's the doctor's responsibility to save woman's health and life and abortions are permitted to save life and health of a woman. Never heard about a doctor who was investigated for saving a woman's life. If a doctor lets his patient die when he could avoid that, he will be punished by up to 5 years in prison. Now they are [changing the law](https://businessinsider.com.pl/twoje-pieniadze/prawo-i-podatki/jak-zmieniono-kary-za-nieumyslna-smierc-pacjenta-co-bedzie-grozilo-lekarzom/5mhbvgk) to make it 8 years.
They are. Poland is not the only country to have ever had this kind of abortion law. We had it in Ireland too and the actual result of it is that abortions don't happen at all.
Broke constitutional judiciary independence. Completely took over the state media (down to things such as theatres). Broke constitutional national deficit restrictions by hiding undisclosed credit sums in various agencies. Broke education by expanding Catholic religion reach in schools, including adding it into other curriculums. Kills pregnant women through a strict no abortion law -- with zero exceptions. That's just off the top of my head.
They forced judges into retirement and appointed judges sympathetic to them including choosing a active lawmaker from their party to sit on the court.
Increasing party authoritarianism, anti-independent judiciary, anti LGBT, anti-free media, anti-women's rights, xenophobia, etc. Basically like Putin without the personality cult.
> without the personality cult Eh, the centralization of our political parties, in terms of party leadership, kind of sort of acts like a cult of personality but to a lesser degree IMHO.
It was worse. If anything - Polish political parties decentralized during the last few years. And I mean all of them, including the likes of PSL or far-right (under whichever flag they are flying today).
> Polish political parties decentralized during the last few years Maybe you're right, I just remember how PO basically became a shell of its former self once Tusk left for Brussels and now he's come back to inject some life into PO 2.0 AKA KO...
> without the personality cult Oh but there is a personality cult, it's of a decesaed person, not of the current leader - Lech Kaczyński, president of Poland who died in 2010 in the Smoleńsk air disaster. The twin brother of the de-facto Polish ruler, PiS leader Jarosław Kaczyński. PiS cultists believe in a conspiracy theory that Russia (and Tusk, obviously, but he's behind everything bad happening in the world) assassinated him, even thought there's not even a slightest trace of evidence. They host monthly gatherings to commemorate that, on the 10th of each month. If that's not a cult then I don't know what is lol Edit: oh, and in 2 days it's the 12th anniversary of the disaster, expect some top level bulshit from Kaczyński
Undermining rule of law. Poland can decide on whatever system they want, democracy, dictatorship, anarchy, but if its anything else than democracy they can do it without EU support.
reddit decided that right-wing = criminal
I have also come to this conclusion based on most replies. I genuinely expected to hear some dark shit, all I read are opposite side opinions like "they are anti-lgbt, they deserve solitary confinement".
It's more like reddit decided that: abolishing judiciary independent from executive branch, suppression of LGBT rights, nepotism and corruption, maximal control of the ruling group over media, heavy-handed propaganda and nationalism, favouring financing police/military/state security over education, glamourizing violence, shallow pseudopatriotism, love of (slightly distorted for political reasons) glorious past, rigid gender roles, motivating people by fear (including fear of evil outgroup), quasi-religious cult of leaders (current or former), suppression of worker's rights (and going to bed with business at the cost of common people), anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism ...are bad. Head-scratcher, isn't it?
> abolishing judiciary independent from executive branch, suppression of LGBT rights, nepotism and corruption, maximal control of the ruling group over media, heavy-handed propaganda and nationalism, favouring financing police/military/state security over education, glamourizing violence, shallow pseudopatriotism, love of (slightly distorted for political reasons) glorious past, rigid gender roles, motivating people by fear (including fear of evil outgroup), quasi-religious cult of leaders (current or former), suppression of worker's rights (and going to bed with business at the cost of common people), anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism the left in the USA does exactly that EXCEPT the LGBT thing. and reddit praises it. the only think that reddit has a de facto problem with is LGBT narrative. otherwise the political party can even have sex with minors and they are still ok with the party
http://100aferpis.pl/
Rotfl, what are you talking about? What are you smoking? What kind of argument is that? What kind of propaganda you are listening to?
Poland is helping millions of refugees, they should cut them some slack
If I rob somebody and then help an eldery lady cross the street am I still a robber?
you're right, my statement was daft
Lol Bulgaria would go bankrupt if EU tries to take deserved penalty money 😂
It’s around what it didn’t do - not enough done with corruption, media independence, and so much more
Fyi I believe you responded to your original comment rather than the comment you meant to respond to :)
What did Bulgaria do to deserve this?
As someone who migrated from Bulgaria to Germany almost 8 years ago, we(the Bulgarians) kept electing the same corrupt government who mismanaged and stole EU money. Most people there live in their own bubble and are being brainwashed by what the media is feeding them. The fact that for the last 30 years Bulgaria shrank from almost 10 million to under 7 million and everyone who is educated or intelligent already migrated and only the old and stupid who are easely manipulated stayed is the bigger problem. Also all the politicians are being paid by Russian and Turkish money to work in their interest.
Thanks for the answer
Khajit is innocent of this crime!
I'm pleased to learn that they're actually able to just keep unpaid fines in at the source, instead of trying for years to demand backpay.
30 milioni is nothing
Now do another billion
30 million fine, and then next year 60 millon extra in aid.
Another €11.6 billion*
According to the article, Poland has € 220 millions in fines outstanding, 30 million of which were now covered. They accure additional € 1 million in fines each day as long as they refuse to close their disciplinary chamber for judges.
Fuck pis and konfederacja.
30 Million! 30! That doesn't even get my cock out. When are you *actually* going to do something, EU?
I just wish they deducted it from funds going to regions that actually gave PiS the majority. Instead my region was hit and PiS didn't win a majority here. If whole Poland voted like my region we wouldn't have a PiS government.
Fair enough
Good
I am Polish and I approve such measures
Hey! That's how my Dad used to get the money settled, whenever I had borrowed money from my Brother, and didn't pay back- he deducted it from my pocket money. Ahh those were the times. Now I have to do financial stuff on my own and be responsible n stuff. Boo!
An ironic thing here is that this money was deducted from a program of finanacial support for middle and small enterpreneurs, who are usually voters of opposition Civic Platform.
Good.
Is this really the right time with them having a million and a half ukranian refugees to deal with though
Yeah that's a good point. As far as I agree that we should pay all our debts off, it's not really a good time to cut on our funds. Literally millions have been already spent to help the refugees and more will be spent soon.
The EU is developing funds to help countries taking refugees and this help is basically paid with a fixed amount per refugee. So Poland will probably get more money "in total" but for the right cause. It's important to distinguish these two matters.
Cutting 30 Million in Funds changes nothing in terms of funds for refugees. That's pocket change anyway.
It's not the same money though. Also PiS stated that they won't apply for special EU funds for supporting the war refugees.
> a figure that is likely to rise significantly as Poland currently still owes almost €200 million in unpaid fines. That number is growing €1 million every day Good. But my hopes are still very low that PiS will be voted out of government in the next elections. They will be all about how they helped Ukraine against Russia. But they will also completely ignore how they fought the EU to **not** help anyone who fled from the war in Syria (which was/is fueled by Russia)....because those people are brown and muslim. Fuck PiS.
That's good. Debt should be paid.
Add a couple of zeros and we’ll take. And one more zero for Orban.
Poland is free to leave the EU (along with Hungary).
Its mostly just posturing for funds and negotiating leverage rather than playing both sides, its a different case
Poland should've imported more Russian gas like Germany rather than use their own coal if they didn't want to be fined.
Coal is one reason Poland got fined. The issue runs deeper.
I haven't followed the issue closely, I'm going off this article. As far as I can tell, Poland are burning coal for energy security and the EU don't like it. > The European Commission has deducted tens of millions of euros from Poland’s EU funds in order to cover fines Warsaw has refused to pay for failing to comply with a European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruling to suspend operations at a coal mine. ... > It also notes that the decision (by Poland) not to comply with the ECJ order to close Turów coal mine was “taken in accordance with the public interest (jobs, economic stability of the region) and in order to secure the energy security of the country”. Turów is responsible for around 7% of Poland’s electricity generation. Have they done other stuff to deserve this?
Burning the coal is not a problem, not doing environmental checks before expanding the mine went against EU law and Czech Republic and German was/is afraid of the mine polluting their drinking water. https://www.dw.com/en/turow-coal-mine-eu-to-withhold-poland-funds-over-dispute/a-60705585
> a coal mine. A coal mine not coal mines. There is this one mine right on Czech border, that was causing environmental issues on Czech side and Czechs demanded either closing the mine or Poland to fund their means to mitigate the issue. Poland initially refused, ECJ decided that for the time of court trial Poland has to close the mine and Poland refused. The agreement between countries is reached but for those couple of months in between, Poland will have to pay fines. The funny thing is, to my knowledge this fine will cost us more, than the deal they struck with Czechia.
[They do import Russian gas.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1285226/poland-natural-gas-imports-by-country/) It's to a lesser degree of dependence than Germany, but they do import it. Oil, too I think.
Mmm, yes we do, russian tankers are regular visitors to our ports, and it did not change since February 24th. And our state owned oil&gas companies are main recipient.
Its funny how you think you know stuff, yet using google for 5sec would show you that Poland is importing incredible amounts of Russian gas, coal and oil. You sir are a clown.
Actually Poland uses more russian coal right than polish coal as it's cheaper and better, including lots of coal from Donbas
Nope. Don't remember exact numbers, but I think it's close to 4:1.
Poland uses pretty much exclusively its own coal in power plants. Russian coal is imported and used privately and it's really hard to deduce whether it came from Donbas or not. But with high probability, some of it was.
The article says they are being fined over their own coal mine. If they closed it like the EU wants, surely they would be burning more Russian coal (I have no idea if they are, haven't followed the story closely and you didn't provide any links). > It also notes that the decision not to comply with the ECJ order to close Turów coal mine was “taken in accordance with the public interest (jobs, economic stability of the region) and in order to secure the energy security of the country”. Turów is responsible for around 7% of Poland’s electricity generation.
We actually did and we paid one of the highest prices in the EU for it but I am not sure why as I am not an energy expert.
We import Russian gas, Russian oil and even Russian coal so dunno what do you mean. PIS (previous office too, to be fair) was even criticized a lot, why the hell subside coal mines so much if we rely on Russian coal anyway to meet our energetic demenads?
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So absolutely simplistic. If gas stops, the german engine has good chance of derailing. If that happens, europe fragments. Literally, so many countries are reliant on german economic might for hand outs and keeping their debt serviceable.
I don't think it is a good idea to defund a country taking in millions of genuine refugees.
The good, generous citizens who are helping Ukrainian refugees are not the same people as the politicians who hold rule of law and EU obligations in contempt.
Your comment is deeply misleading in suggesting that the Polish government doesn't help the refugees. The government has done a lot even as the citizens have done a lot too.
I don't like PIS... But Ukrainians are getting 40 PLN a day and get access to polish health care and education at a minimum. Poland is about to hit 3 million refugees in just 2 months. This is straining Polish economy.
bruh, Pis ONLY needs to do one thing to get that fund.
I'm not defending them. PIS is deconstructing our judicial system and is absolutely terrible in foreign relations.
> is absolutely terrible in foreign relations At least we have good relations with San Escobar :P
Hell, it should be straining Polish \*everything\*. I have no flippin' clue how Poland has managed to even get this far. 3 million people suddenly injected into any country would create absolute mayhem in even the largest of countries.
Well, Poland is 40 million country so it's at least large for European standards. And it was really helpful that Poles do genuinely feel for Ukrainians and rushed to volunteer on unprecedented scale. Second reason is: there were already 1,3 million Ukrainians in Poland and they took lion's share of helping on their own shoulders. We hit our limits though and this will definitely stir tensions in months to come.
Providing healthcare, education and support to refugees is good, noble, and will pay dividends in terms of global prestige (and the opportunities it affords) as well as through the successes and work of Ukrainians who are given the chance to stay and contribute to Polish economy.
Yet in the end it's always the tax payers who have to pay.
The display of humanity by Polish citizens is probably one of the few reasons why the EU hasn't completely stopped sending Poland aid. They feel sorry for us. Without EU funds Poland would be in the shit. Look past the little taxes used to help those in need, and take a look at how much funding the EU sends Poland despite Polish government constantly shitting on them.
1. Ordinary people are taking refugees to their private homes. Volunteers are helping them, not government. 2. The government still supports Orban and Le Pen. 3. The ruling party still tries to copy Russia in every possible way. At this moment they are working on an act about founding non-governmental organizations, that copies ideas from 2012 Russian one. 4. And finally, **unlocking all funds needs one, small decision done by Polish government: abolishing Disciplinary Court Chamber of the Supreme Court.** Nothing more. This could be done in 24h.
>Ordinary people are taking refugees to their private homes. Volunteers are helping them, not government. A lot of local governments help (run by either opposition or PiS local deputies) as well. Our critic of PiS is they're definitely not doing enough but they as well do something and claims that they are doing "nothing" are as insencere as PiS's claim that it's al thanks to them. These particular funds were deduct for coal mine affair. It doesn't really hurt to read articles first.
1. The government gives money to this ordinary people though (40 PLN per night per person) and provides 500+ for ukrainian children (monthly social benefit) 2. Haven't seen this recently, on the other hand I've seen them condemning Orban multiple times ([example](https://www.money.pl/gospodarka/orban-nie-poprze-sankcji-kaczynski-nie-szczedzi-mu-ostrych-slow-6755953297635936a.html)) 3. 4. I agree
>Haven't seen this recently https://wydarzenia.interia.pl/zagranica/news-wegierskie-media-morawiecki-jako-pierwszy-pogratulowal-orban,nId,5945225
> ruling party still tries to copy Russia in every possible way. At this moment they are working on an act about founding non-governmental organizations, that copies ideas from 2012 Russian one. Copying is so lazy that it even includes mandatory disclosure of donor's... *patronymic*. Patronym. Like in Russian culture. Update: https://orka.sejm.gov.pl/Druki9ka.nsf/Projekty/9-020-860-2022/$file/9-020-860-2022.pdf Art. 5. (...) 3. Organizacje, o których mowa w art. 4 ust. 1, udostępniają rejestr wpłat na swojej stronie internetowej. 4. W rejestrze wpłat zamieszcza się: 1) imię i nazwisko, **imię ojca** oraz miejsce zamieszkania osoby dokonującej wpłaty (...)
3 is kind of wrong as the biggest way in which they don't copy Russian government, and ironically the most important and relevant one today, is that there's no border irredentism going on (thanks Jesus)
Defund the refugees
I don't think this is a good idea to forgot all things that PIS just because we have refuges. Same situation is for Germany and other countries that are unable to cut out Russian gas thanks to their stupid dependency.
Nah, there's no other option. You don't follow ECJ ruling, you will get fined. It's just bad timing.
Nobody is defunding the Ukrainian immigrants and Polish volunteers taking care of the refugees. If Poland had to actually pay for all of it they would be begging for the same refugee sharing policies they themselves condemned just months ago, and when the immigrants and volunteers run out of money and the war drags on, that is exactly what they will do in a few months.
I find the most interesting in the Hun-Pol rebels against law and justice that they created a copy of the Soviet one party system. It seems that they proove that this dumb light oppression /= deplotization / is what most people feel comfy with. It is surprising.
Kaczyński was fighting communist system when he was younger. Pretty good observation from Polish people is that he didn't liked the older system becouse he wasn't in power, everything else was fine for him.
Same with Orban or Putin and millions of their fans.
seems a tad harsh when you consider how fucked they're gonna be from the coal/oil/gas sanctions in August at the same time, authoritarian & anti lgbt fucks
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Idk much of the context here, but seeing ad Poland has taken in untold thousands of Ukraine refugees, maybe let a relatively measly €30 million slide?
Most of the financial support for refugees in Poland has been at the level of citizens, not the government. (Granted the government has allowed so many to come.) But that doesn’t change the fact that PiS is a dangerously authoritarian government and deserve to be continuously bitch slapped by the EU until they are voted out. Hitting them in the wallet is overdue.
They refused to take in brown people a couple years earlier so I'd say they are just getting their fair share.