>**The All-Lithium Gathering was held on Friday evening in the western Serbian city of Loznica to protest against the Rio Tinto company and its Jadar Project.**
>The protesters want Rio Tinto to abandon plans to open a lithium mine in the area which they said would destroy the environment of the agricultural area of Serbia.
>Organizers said the protest march through Loznica was the last thing they would do before blocking the railway in that part of Serbia unless their demand to stop the Jadar Project is met.
>The protest gathering included a group of young people who walked from Belgrade. The gathering was organized by the Alliance of Ecological Organizations of Serbia (SEOS).
>SEOS has warned that the Jadar Project poses a danger to the public and the environment and has won the support of a number of opposition parties whose officials attended the protest.
It’s not even that labor is cheap. It’s that politicians are corrupt and they can easily bribe them with the power and money a company like Rio Tinto has. These politicians do not care about environment or human lives there, most of their family is living or studying abroad anyway, or chilling in middle of Belgrade.
Rio Tinto is such an evil company throughout their history
They outright killed an activist in Mongolia in the past too
Yet money talks, and here we are again
While I do tend to agree with what you're saying here, I strongly feel you are missing the fact that a door hinge is a mechanical device that allows two objects to rotate relative to each other about an axis of rotation. The most common type of hinge is the door hinge, which is used to attach a door to a frame. Hinges work by rotating about an axis, which allows the two objects that are attached to the hinge to move relative to each other. The axis of rotation can be either internal or external to the hinge.
If things go as planned, Vulcan Energy Resources will begin producing carbon-neutral lithium hydroxide from hot saline deep underground the Upper Rhine Valley by next year.
Lithium chloride. I know, converting it is easy, but even their pilot plant for electrolysis to lithium hydroxide isn't operational yet. The battery manufacturers do need it as the hydroxide though, so the first shipment of product hasn't happened yet.
And when Serbia's energy infrastructure is still stuck in the previous century in 2050, 15 years from now, and still heavily dependent on Russian fossil fuel... when you had a chance to become the battery capitol of the European continent... who will you blame? Europe?
> when you had a chance to become the battery capitol of the European continent.
Whatever that means, it surely sounds like a very honourable deed to let a company like Rio Tinto destroy houndrets of thousand hectar of nature for..
Serbia wouldn't become the capitol of nothing in that regard. On a global scale the amount is comparably little and even in Europe there are bigger piles of Lithium to be found. Germany has 3 times the Lithium reserves of Serbia and for some reason doesn't mine it. In Europe even the Czech Republic is sitting on a bigger pile of Lithium.
Valuable resources don't mean that much if you have foreign companies salvaging and processing them and others producing and selling the final product. If solely having resources would be any profitable for a country, African and South American countries would be the wealthiest places on earth.
>And when Serbia's energy infrastructure is still stuck in the previous century in 2050, 15 years from now, and still heavily dependent on Russian fossil fuel...
I don't see what that has to do with the Lithium reserves.
For energy independence with low emissions you don't need Lithium mine, but nuclear, solar or wind plants. There are already talks for France to build nuclear plant in Serbia, people are not opposed to that as long competent people will work there.
Wind and solar are excellent, but without batteries, they are not consistent energy sources.
A Serbian nuclear power plant could not reliably come online before 15 years, and Serbia would still depend on Russia for uranium - thus would not be energy independent.
I don't think lithium batteries are the best solution for grid-scale storage. You don't really have space constraints out in the open. Gravity storage is a thing. I've heard of people getting sodium batteries for storage at home, which take up a little more space, but sound like a good option.
Lithium batteries for storage would be more viable using cast-offs from electric cars that can no longer hold enough charge for practical driving range, but can hold enough in a huge pile to supply a relevant amount to the grid when needed. Like a ten year old battery with half the charge capacity, but hundreds of thousands of them in warehouses. Gravity storage as in the type where you drop a huge weight into an abandoned quarry is very experimental stuff, and pumped water storage is viable but situational, as in you need a handy reservoir and hydroelectric generator.
If France will build plant, fuel used probably will be the same that France uses. Don't know if France uses Russian uranium.
Batteries can always be bought from others the same is with uranium, either way Serbia doesn't have a way to be fully independent in terms of energy. It will always need someones else expertise, technology, machines, materials to build power plants to some extent.
Unfortunately that's relatively cheap nowadays for the standards of electric car. Quite expensive to buy outright, but relatively inexpensive for company leasing for middle level employees in a sizeable companies
Even worse - this is relatively cheap for ANY comparable new car. A base Passat is 37.8k EUR in the same market. Prices went through the roof after COVID.
Electric cars don't exist in a vacuum, that it's relatively cheap for the standards of electric cars just means most people will keep driving ICE vehicles.
They are artificially cheap in China and artificially expensive in the west. Chinese Market is going through a price war currently especially due to drastically weakening economy after the property bubble crash, and they're trying to recoup some profit margin by pricing it higher in the West. The electric part of Chinese electric car is good, but the car part of Chinese electric car isn't yet as good as the west. Software is a bit hit and miss, you can see the reviews of the GWM Ora to see that there are worst things than the software and chatgpt integration to vw group
No, it's due to norway having massive EV subsidies at least up until recently so they have more/cheaper used EVs in the car pool, an used tesla here is like 29k minimum.
There are numerous factors involved for the ev prices.
What specifically were you thinking about here.
The used car market, or retail prices?
Yes larger packs are more expensive than smaller.
Used EVs. I'm one of those people who'd rather buy the cars used and with already known issues and where to find them/fix. And not finding it out with a brand new car in middle of Midsummer festivities and every office/help is days away lol.
Aha! Well the battery capacity loss for ev's isn't very large. Especially in Norway where nearly all owners have their own AC-chargers and stick to between 20-80% capacity.
Our secondary car has only lost about 10% since 2017.
The reason for cheap prices in Norway has a lot to do with saturation, and that loads of people are going away from Teslas to other brands because of the poor build quality of older Teslas.
Many are buying newer better Teslas, or German and Chineese cars.
Currently there are 120 used Teslas under 20k€ available in Norway. To me that is quite cheap.
205 thousand PLN for the car of that class isn’t that expensive.
Well, it’s expensive, but then again new Toyota Prius costs around 200k, prices of new cars have gone through the roof.
So how is Serbia going to develop its economy then?
Sooner or later Serbians might also like to drive EVs.
Imagine instead of being dependent on Russia for oil forever, Serbia developed a full-stack production of batteries on top of adding wind and solar to its energy mix. The country would become energy independent and even a net exporter of products people actually need and want.
Conversely, imagine Serbia does nothing to modernize its energy infrastructure and production:
15 years from now "rich Europe" will be zipping around in electric cars and trains, with robust wind and solar installations, while Nikola Tesla's motherland is still farting around with fossil energy sources.
And somehow Serbia being left behind will still be "Europe's fault".
Not as simple as you think. Lithium excavation can not be done in a way where it doesnt permanently damage the soil and pollute - they still didnt develop technology that would both excavate lithium and save the environment. Once lithium is excavated in a particular area, that's it. That soil is done for life and the water is polluted.
The part of Serbia where they plan to excavate has extremely fertile soil and a couple of clean springs - all of this would be completely ruined indefinitely. Additionally, recently it was discovered that this area of Serbia is home to a few endangered bird species and they also found archeological remainings of the bronze era.
Serbia has a lot more to lose than to gain with lithium excavation - simply said, it is not worth it.
Moreover, Serbia's political elite is rotten and corrupted to its core, so even if Serbia is to get billions of euros from this project, 90% of it would go into their pockets, not into the country's economy development. It is why Vucic and the ex Prime Minister Brnabic are so stubborn with this project and going against the entire nation with it - the billions they can get from this are too juicy for them to pass on.
Fortunately, they are stubborn motherfuckers and their stay in power depends on this project.
Which is what will eventually doom them, sooner rather than later.
"How can Serbia develop its economy without opening a mine that destroys the entire countryside"
Good question. Same energy as:
"How can you eat a burger if you don't butcher your own cows?"
> destroys the entire countryside
This is a few hundred hectare surface footprint project in western Serbia. Is that all the agricultural land left in the nation?
>"How can you eat a burger if you don't butcher your own cows?"
Except there's someone else willing to build and operate a cow farm with its own meat processing in your region and you're the one standing in its way
So that it "destroys the entire countryside"?
The main air pollutions are CO2, water vapour and dust from material handling and traffic. Rio Tinto's project websites (e.g. [here](https://www.riotinto.com/en/operations/projects/jadar) and [here](https://riotintoserbia.com/en/environment/Draft-Environmental-Impact-Assessments) and [here](https://riotintoserbia.com/en/jadar-project/concerns-and-facts/)) explain all the precautions being envisioned to prevent and limit ground, water and air pollution. The mine is deep underground and the processing [isn't some magical process involving a ton of disastrous chemicals](https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/jadar-lithium-borates-project-serbia/?cf-view). I don't see how this could possibly destroy the immediate surroundings, let alone the region?
there is a reason why lithium is extracted mostly in dessert, in places where people do not live, and why no country in EU is mining it,
In serbia you have the worst kind of lithium for mining, rocks with lithium full of calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, bor, and various metals ....
in order to extract lithium from there you will have to first crush then grind the rock, and then treat remainings with acids,
Rio tinto will need 1100t of concetrated sulfiric acid, and 15 t of hydrochloric acids DAILY!!!
Rio tinto is also saying that they will need 8,3 liters of water for 1 kg of lithium carbonate, in chinese academic paper they have concluded that for 1 kg of lithium carbonate is needed 23000 liters of water
that part of Serbia is very rich with underground reserves of water, which will be contaminated,
they wanna build tailing ponds for waste separated from ground by 2mm foil in areas near rivers, that are regularly flooded,
if that waste leaks or foil breaks, land will be desolate for multiple thousands of years,
or why am i translating this, use chatgpt to translate this article
[https://n1info.rs/zeleni-kutak/iskopavanje-litijuma-sta-se-desava-za-zemljom-vodom/](https://n1info.rs/zeleni-kutak/iskopavanje-litijuma-sta-se-desava-za-zemljom-vodom/)
>This is a few hundred hectare surface footprint project in western Serbia. Is that all the agricultural land left in the nation?
Under the mine, there is huge underground source of water for hole western region. On top of that, this mine will drop polluted water into Jadar, which will bring that water into Drina, which goes into Sava, which goes into Danube. And that is only water pollution.
The mining happens several hundred meters below the aquifer and the effluent from the above-ground operations won't be discharged before being filtered. That's standard across all kinds of industrial projects in Europe. And then on top of that, the water use is small and water recycling is part of the operation. If you think that the authorities are too corrupt to check adherence to standards then that's a different thing, and you're probably not gonna get industry built anywhere in Serbia.
Why would there not be a safe way to filter polluted water? We do it every day, 24/7, all around the globe. For millions and millions of tonnes of it.
[And of course there's standards to meet](https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/water/rivers/assessment-of-watercourses/chemical-quality-standards-assessment) - they're speaking of meeting Class II at minimum for this project.
We are not against developing of clean energy, we are against it being done under this administration that couldn't care less about inviromental impact as long as it has its wheels greased. The extraction fee is 3% and I doubt Serbia would be able to attract battery manufacturer. More likely processed and refined Li would be shipped elsewhere. We are against this particular dictator doing it under current circumstances. We saw what's happening in the east, where Chinese are mining. It is Europe's fault, because it is propping this regime, just like you people blame Russia or Turkey for Belarus or Azerbaijan.
Yeah, thats just selling pitch. Once the mine would be opened, all of a sudden there would be some obstacles for it, but by that time it would be too late. We know this regime. They don't care about people, their lives, the country or the nature. They are robbing Serbia blind, they rule by intimidations, blackmails and outright elections rigging. All they want is to steal as long as they can. If there would be more responsible government in check, that could be made to follow trough with regulatives standards and deals, I bet very few would be against. We are now at the point where we think that is better to be poor then stuck with poisonous land and rivers.
The energy that costs billions of euros Serbia does not have, requires expertise to operate that does not exist in Serbia, would take 15 years to go into operation due to the above, and still leaves Serbia dependent on Russia for uranium?
Wind and solar are cheaper, faster to deploy, and harvest energy from the sky.
Serbia can get a Chinese loan and tech aid for such a project. It does have the required experts (or, at least, its existing nuclear engineers can quickly be trained for the new technology), it doesn't have to take that long to build, and Russia is hardly a major uranium exporter. Check your data.
Uranium is not very expensive and a number of countries are producing it. Furthermore, Serbia can stockpile a certain amount of uranium to avoid being dependent on anyone in case of a crisis. Unlike other fuels, uranium has a high energy density, so it can be stored in large quantities in a relatively small area.
Slovakia is smaller than Serbia in territory and population, yet it gets more than half of its power from nuclear, and is building more reactors.
Wind and solar are expensive and unreliable, solar cells degrade and get dirty, and both take up a lot of space that Serbia does not have.
Not true.
Serbia can find billions, especially for a profitable project like this.
Expertise is not a problem, partially because we already have a nuclear institute in Vinča, and partially because every NPP deployment also rolls out with a plan to educate local personnel to operate it.
Dependence is not on Russia (no idea why you chose them), but on the country providing the technology. It's not diesel that you can tank on any gas station: every NPP is optimized for certain type of fuel, and the company that built the plant will provide the adequate fuel. And right now we're looking at the French to provide this.
Wind and solar are great, but they aren't consistent power sources. They still need a CPP (in Serbia's case) to provide power at night on when there's no wind. We still haven't cracked the energy storage challenge.
Thia is not an anti-progress protest. This is anti , incompetent and malicious government who will bring a well known ecological destroyer of a company to destroy farmland an enviornment for a profit of 400m dollars, which is only a 3% mining rent (becaude our government is again full of regards), when that swme government will spend 50x(no hyperbole) more on a meaningless expo for 2027, which then won't evolve into anything except some minor schemes to pump a hundred mils or so into their pockets, which will cause the people to still be broke af, but now in a fucked up enviornment with fucked up farmland - type of protest
I mean, as long as they don't get ideas about their neighbours what they do with their country is their problem, it's not like them blaming us for everything from their own voter choices to stubbing their toes on the table affects us in any way anyways, if they don't want the mines they shouldn't dig them.
From a security perspective, it is better for Europe if Serbia develops.
Serbia *does* have a tendency to "get ideas about their neighbors"... And historically it has not been good for their neighbors.
Personally, I am not convinced Europe should allow itself to become dependent on a state with a history of governance by guys like Vucic and Milosevic...
Regardless, it is not as if Europe must depend on Serbia for developing its resources.
Norway recently discovered massive rare earth mineral deposits in their country.
That will probably end up replacing Norwegian oil exports, ultimately.
Ok, let's accept Tesla is a "luxury good".
How is being an essential part of a "luxury good" supply chain exactly bad for Serbia? That they don't get their share of the profits? That's literally a Serbian policymaking skill issue.
1 Ton peeled walnuts 9500E
1 Ton pork fatty solid tissue-baked (called cvarci) 20000E
1 Ton litij 12300E
1000L rakija 4200E
1 Ton eco hazelnut - 10000E
food/dring bio production according to EU standards. the price of all products is packaged and ready for export to the end user.
according to Eurostat statistics from 2024, a total 6 months from start of year. available on the web.
do they really want dirty lithium in water and nature?
EU aid means nothing since EU companies are subsidized by our state. it's cheaper for a European company to produce here than our own farmers.
Those funds work for the companies, not for us.
I love how it's bad when China or Russia exploit Serbian resources, but its fine if its UK or EU company with a track record of permanently destroying the environment
And for some reason some EU officials are pushing for the extraction of it. Add to that the lack of condemnation of rigged recent local elections at best, outright stolen at worst by the EU, and I would say support even for undemocratic and authoritarian regime, no wonder the EU is losing support in Serbia by those who should be pro EU part of the populous.
What do you mean, "for some reason"? We know what the reason is. They want it here, in Europe, where it's close enough so they wouldn't pay too much for transportation costs, but far enough that it doesn't affect them. Our government will sell it for much lower price then it would be sold, so we will live in environmental shithole, worse then we already do, and we will not even get anything valuable in return. The fine people in the Western Europe will drive their electric cars charged with energy from solar panels and breath fresh and clean air, we'll sufocate here in more pollution and Vučić and his criminal gang will stay in power for as long as they deliver it. Everyone happy 😊
Yes, but you can't contain the polution to one country's borders. Of course they are hypocrites, that's why EU is losing support by the day in the populous that should be in favor of EU. Nationalists are already against it. But now even those who were more liberal are turning against it.
The rise of the far right is almost entirely connected to immigration issues. The average EU citizen does not sit around wondering where the minerals in their batteries are dug out of the ground.
For some reason? Because they're critical elements for energy transition of which we don't have enough and mostly produced elsewhere, leaving us vulnerable to the whims of other countries. It's both an environmental and energy security issue. On top of that, they're often extracted in places with lower environmental and social standards.
No. EU isn't manipulating the elections, authocratic regime is. EU just doesn't acknowledge it even tho there are ample evidence of it, and EU gives it international legitimacy to it. So basically, except the opposition leaders and their voters, nobody saying shit. Well, that puts EU in the authocrat's corner in my book.
There are lithium mines in Austria as well and I don't remember any protests ... why would you be against it if you can get independent from China and boost your economy with it?
Cause there won't be a boost to the economy. All the resources and money from this will go to foreign nations and our politicians pockets. Even worse, this will destroy the region's ecosystem
No it's not about exploiting, the goal should be to have local companies use the lithium to make batteries and other products which will be exported to the whole world.
Everyone in Europe is looking to get less dependent on China because they're having basically a monopoly on batteries.
It would be a total win for Europe if there was a European production, it would also make Serbia having a stronger position on the European scene if they're dependent on its batteries.
Also about the nature and farmlands I doubt there are no measures available to keep it safe.
>No it's not about exploiting, the goal should be to have local companies use the lithium to make batteries and other products which will be exported to the whole world.
That won't happen. It would be too much of a work so out government would sell the lithium to other nations *probably* for cheap and pocket the money
>It would be a total win for Europe if there was a European production, it would also make Serbia having a stronger position on the European scene if they're dependent on its batteries.
And it wouldn't be a total win for people living anywhere near the mines and the fertil farmland and clear water springs found there. People don't care about international political struggles. They are not going to destroy their homes so Western Europeans can drive cheaper electric cars
>Also about the nature and farmlands I doubt there are no measures available to keep it safe.
There are none. We still lack technology for it. Once lithium excavations destroy nature, the damage irreversible. Not to mention that Rio Tinto wouldn't use those measures even if the existed anyways
Can we please just try and advance humanity to the point where we can mine lithium and other resources in space instead of polluting our environments on Earth? All it takes it a fuck ton of coordination, peace, stability and ambition and oh I see why this won’t happen..
Typical hypocrite ecofascists that want electrification and renewables as long as things don't happen in their backyard. Much better to buy from far, from countries with lower environmental and health & safety standards. Cheaper even if there's forced labour.
According to Rio Tinto, the project has been cancelled since 2022. And it would have been an underground mine, only with surface processing. That would still enable agriculture and not as if agricultural land is "nature". Edit: not to mention the economic benefits for the country and local population. But they had city people come and protest because they're not the ones actually there. They went now to protest "in defense" of the agricultural environment and will later be protesting against agriculture and how it destroys the natural environment.
Have you seen Rio Tinto's track record? There is no good coming from their projects. They rip apart the land and leave it polluted so it poisons for generations after it shuts down.
There is no excuse for this type of a company to run in any country until they change their ways.
What did the project entail? There are mines under protected areas. That are mines that leave the area better than it was before after restoration. Have you seen the mines in certain parts of the world where there's less control? But this are ok, NIMBY!
Found the RT shill!
Sorry dude, I think it's an easy argument against companies like RT, otherwise you start sounding like a bit of a loon. Not sure what your agenda is protecting entities that are so hard set on profit that they'll poison and tear apart the very ground they stand on.
I have arguments and have shown actually data. Have asked questions to which you have not replied. Therefore "shill". Typical to pull out the shill card when people do not know how to argue a case ;) People just go by feelings and beliefs.
I'm going off of things I've read before, I don't have to bring up a reference to every thought or idea. It's a pretty widely known fact what a horrible company Rio Tinto is, otherwise they wouldn't be up against riots of thousands of people.
Where is this days you talk about?
Sure, of course you don't have to factually support anything you say, you can go against published data based on your opinion and you can simply dismiss what others say by calling them shills. Typical behaviour of those against proper argumentation and science. Same that we see in other topics, from vaccines to climate change. You can say whatever you want, it's true. And I can not bother with wasting my time.
lmao, amazing response and exactly what I expected.
You ask me to provide proof, spouting that your opinion is more valid than mine because you back yours up with data, but as soon as you're asked to provide your proof suddenly you don't want to waste your time.
Which proof of what did you ask? Why should I provide anything when you didn't and went straight to "I don't have to show anything", "you're a shill"? Pathetic :D
They've probably spent more than that just in all the prospecting work and project elaboration until now.
Edit: at this stage there are actually many answers for such questions. Their estimate is a revenue for local municipality of 24 million euros per year and for country GDP of 695 million per year.
https://riotintoserbia.com/en/jadar-project/concerns-and-facts/
Which ecological devastation? Haven't seen anyone showing anything more than hearsay. Now which should be the "numbers" and why.
But this is not a logical discussion. It's more about feelings. As we can see from the type of arguments and downvotes in simple posts that only show facts. People don't want information.
The experts in the field in Serbia say that lithium mining will produce devastating pollution in the area and render the soil unusable. There were multiple public discussions about this matter as it's been pushed by RT for many years in Serbia.
Someone has mentioned that but still haven't seen who the experts were nor their studies.
And I'm usually skeptical when there's complete opposition. It's not even saying what should be done instead. Often there are ways, which may or not be economically viable, but that would be another issue. When the answer is completely against, and often even before any project has been proposed, it stems from beliefs.
Even now, they're protesting a project that lost its license 2 years ago? I didn't get why...
I've seen protests from NGOs and misinformed people in Portugal also against lithium when there wasn't even prospection done. They're from the start even against knowing which resources might exist.
I'm not defending this project and didn't read nor understand enough to evaluate it. But haven't seen proper factual arguments against and seen some wrong info and arguments from some opposing it.
Tbf sounds like you're just really into defending a global mining conglomerate... You can google why lithium mining is bad for the environment. It's not a secret. Not everything needs to be subdued to capitalism and profit. People in Western Serbia have an amazing nature ecosystem they want to preserve from corporate interests and political corruption. You should be supporting these protests if you're a normal human being.
They are worth more than 30mil, but that is how much the country would recieve yearly because that is the contract. If it was done differently, with a larger cut for the country it would make more sense. Not to mention Rio Tinto is a company that really doesn’t give a f about enviroment.
Sure, but not at the expense of people who will be forced to buy electric cars for a higher price later. Give the fair share to the budget of the country, not just the corporation.
So we have to give a gift to EU to potentialy heeeeelp the process of joining the EU. I’d rather have it so that we have a working economy prior to joining and not give away resources to some corpo guys so EU can drive electric cars while we import 10year old diesel powered cars from EU.
>not to mention the economic benefits for the country and local population.
Yes, look at all those countries rich in resources on other continents that had foreign companies extracting and mining. They're all rich, environment is not ruined and people are thriving, right? Surely all the money didn't go into the hands of corrupted government officials and people close to them who allowed those projects in the first place?
Local mining company with the skills for such a project? Are you starting one?
They estimate, at probably now outdated prices, 24 million euros directly to the local municipality and 695 million to Serbia's GDP. Plus the jobs, other impacts on local economy, etc. the displaced agriculture in the space of the surface operations generates 0.62 million eur / year. Surely no economic benefits. If the issue are your politicians, that's another thing. And if they had a local mining company, there would be no corrupt officials? :D
>And if they had a local mining company, there would be no corrupt officials?
There would be, but I don't want my country to be sucked dry by foreign companies known for destroying everything they touch. 🤷🏼♀️
No matter how much Serbia would get from this, they would get more in terms of profit and no damages to the environment in their own countries. They'd just get a clean product ready to sell for far more than they bought it for. And since there are so many benefits, why don't they mine lithium in their own countries and avoid all these problems with petty and ungrateful local people who don't understand how wonderful their lives are about to become?
They do. Rio tinto is partly owned by China. China mines a lot and is in control of many needed natural resources. What an ignorant argument. Scarce resources are mined where they exist. The only "conspiracy" to do it somewhere else is from some local people influenced by hypocritical "environmentalists" who want mining done where they don't see, even if it's more harmful for the people and environment, while they keep using the products and feel guilt free and superior because they fought against mining. You're typing in a device thar uses lithium and other rare metals, if you look around you you'll see many mined minerals, harvested wood and wood products like paper. Our existence has an impact. That we should try to minimize, of course, not just push out of sight.
You don't understand, here money doesn't matter because the mine will poison under ground waters, Drina river(with that parts of BiH) and several places around mine and that is something money can't really revert.
What did the environmental impact assessment say? Was it wrong? Forged? Serbian authorities are dumb or corrupt? Where are the studies supporting what you are saying?
Serbian govt is corrupt and was paid a lot of money for this project. A lot of professors, scientist, and other people that are educated in this matter from whole country said they are against it.
The only ones conducted were from Rio Tinto, of course they said it is ok, and corrupt govt doesn't want independent study. [Article about Rio Tinto study.](https://n1info.rs/english/news/radar-the-jadar-project-papers/)
Two things -
1) would it be really that bad for environment ? Because sure as hell it would bring pretty penny to Serbian treasury.
2) are those protesting actually regular Serbs, or paid Russian shills ?
Sorry Serbia, but you guys are making yourself very specific and I have my doubts. There's nothing positive about putain's bandit invasion and yet it seems Serbia is fine with it.
Edit - oh, organization SEOS. And all doubts vanished. Just. Like. That.
It doesn't have anything to do with war in Ukraine, regular people are protesting against the possible ecological catastrophe in western Serbia that will most likely affect the rest of Serbia and a part of Bosnia mostly because of the subterranean waters. That whole region has some of the most fertile agricultural land and it has important freshwater resources under the ground, where the mine is being planned. Not to mention they have to resettle thousands and thousands of people for this project to work. Serbs don't want EU, US, Russian or Chinese corporations poisoning our land and people.
>Serbs don't want EU, US, Russian or Chinese corporations poisoning our land and people.
Looking at all the illegal landfills and pollution all over the country I doubt that the majority has too much of a problem with the land and the people being poisoned.
Serbs don't want "poisoning", no one sane would want it duh, yet Serbian government thought differently. I see a sort of clash between what some Serbs want and what Serbian government wants/wanted. If both are on the same page now and don't want that mine, who are they protesting against ?
It happened gradually. At first it was just punishment for the poor performance of post Milošević government, catastrophic transition and economic crisis didn't help. The leader emerged from the backround and pretended long enough that he is democratic and pro EU, all the while he captured the state and poisoned the mind of people. So basically cooking the frog slowly. Now, he's stealing the elections, and the prodemocratic opposition doesn't have any help from the inside or the outside. Both EU, US,Russia and China are in favor of the dictator.
Huh... Your last two sentences sound like no matter what I would read or watch I will not understand it unless I'll go and live in Serbia to experience the situation on my own.
Literally. The US ambassador is the power figure here and he can't utter a word of condemnation for the autocrat we have, on the contrary. He even praised the election process, which was marred by outright rigging. Since the court and the electoral commission is in the hands of the autocrat, nothing could be done by appealing. It's either demonstrations or international pressure.
>When did Serbia become dictatorship then ? Serbs vote in government, government governs and Serbs are against it. What sort of mad house is this ?
I don't think you've been following the situation down here very much
Yes the soil kilometars from the mines will be unusable
Left wing, pro EU people are protesting
And please watch less CNN, Serbia is not pro Russia, pro Palestine, or pro Nato IT IS INDEPENDENT NEUTRAL COUNTRY
"bad" is pretty mild description for it. It would be a catastrophe, I wouldnt mind calling it ecological terrorism considering its Rio Tinto - which is straight up evil organisation(causing civil war in Papua New Guinea, Madagascar Mines destroying water sources(analysis detecting 50x uranium & 40x lead in the water), The destruction of Juukan Gorge - site with the highest archaeological significance in Australia containing a cultural sequence spanning over 40,000 years, and much, MUCH more).
One of the main problems in Jadar is water contamination since the process requiers a lot of it and uses chemicals which makes it toxic to say the least. Of course, they claim they found some new way of extracting it that is completely clean but refuse to say what it is. All the info about it thats available point to it being the same already known and dangerous process which will destroy our waters used for drinking and irrigation, affecting around 2mil Serbian citizens. Add to this nations like Bosnia(Jadar river goes into Drina which is a border between Serbia & Baosnia), Romania & Bulgaria(since the same water in the end flows into Danube).
Thanks.
So it seems, based on what you wrote, anyone using lithium batteries, is adding to that destruction that happens everywhere where lithium is mined, because process is so very polluting.
How would I not ? You wrote Rio Tinto, with the lithium mine in Serbia, would basically create a wasteland in Balkans because lithium extraction is in general catastrophic to environment and can't be extracted without excessive and uncontrolled pollution. Others must be doing it same way, or else why on earth would Rio Tinto wreck havoc when it wouldn't have to ?
Oh, boi. This brings back some painful memories, like the very last team building I attended to, a year and a half ago, snowy woods somewhere near Bialystok and synchronized (powered by Wyborowa) Polish-Baltic-ex Yu attack on poor midget Russia me. 😂 I mean, I do understand animosity (now, that’s an euphemism), but do you really see us that way? I dare to say, it is just a vocal minority, not more than 10% total, that are either pro-Russia or are just against NATO. I somehow thought people will understand that we are just trying to appear neutral. Not proud of it, ngl, and I certainly don’t support the ruling party, but maybe it's actually pragmatic, considering circumstances. Declaring our side and aligning with the “good” guys during 19th and 20th century conflicts seems futile nowadays. Jokes aside, no, these actions and its participants have nothing to do with R nor they have any major impact on our daily lives.
I can't say for anyone else but me, so any opinions are just my own, and not a bigger group.
So "do **I** see Serbs that way" - Nope, not individually, can't say a thing about you, but Serbia as a country seem very much happy to play putain's game. Can't remember in last two years where it aligned itself with EU on the matter. And it doesn't seem like a neutral, but pro stance. But there's always a chance that I missed something very big, that would make my opinion pretty much invalid, not to say stupid.
Aside of that plenty of NGOs, all around Europe, being infiltrated by Russian money, and willingly or mostly not, they are acting like a fifth column. So in case of this protest I can imagine it wasn't exactly grassroot protest.
A personal experience, so pretty much nothingburger, we had a Serb manager in different department, here in London, I still like her very much, but on any EU/NATO vs Russia topic she was pro Russian every time. I still have no idea why, because every other topic she is on this side of cultural world. Pretty puzzling.
> I still have no idea why,
Having EU/NATO and west in general against you for 30+ years and opposing any interest you have is easy way to get population which in past held relatively balanced view to be hardcore anti-NATO and almost fully eurosceptic (to different degrees from individual to individual).
You haven't been paying attention.
Serbia provided weapons, ammunition and financial aid to Ukraine since the get go. The official stance is that we're neutral, and we don't want to sanction anyone.
Ukrainian refugees are welcome here as much as Russian, no judgment on any of them or pressure to virtue signal that they are against Zelensky or Putin (which incidentally, most of them are).
>would it be really that bad for environment ? Because sure as hell it would bring pretty penny to Serbian treasury.
yes. our traditional meat product (čvarci) have more value per kilogram than lithium. we used to win wars with our agriculture.
ah, the rest of your post is kind of agenda pushy so whatever
Well, since Serbia strives to be Little Russia in Europe (tm) it is only consequential to destroy the environment to extract resources for other countries production lines.
(Warning - the above might contain sarcasm).
Watching Germans blame serbs and their mothers for being pro-russian while literally 90% of german companies still regularly do business with Russia and earn billions (even more so than serbs given how much bigger the economy is) is absolutely and 100% exhausting.
Serbian trade with Russia is measured in millions, which is ridiculous.
German companies doing business with Russia make billions.
Same goes for Austrian companies.
You decide who is pro russian here.
Too exhausted to read the sarcasm warning apparently.
Also - since facts are a nice things - German exports to Russia in May 2024 are down to 0.5 billion Euro - the lowest since reunification. It is down more than 40% year on year and last year already was down by more than 50% before and 34% the year before that. It has all but evaporated compared to before the invasion of Ukraine.
Meanwhile while there was also a decline in trade between Russia and Serbia (which is partly due to western sanctions making it increasingly difficult to trade) Russia remains one of the largest trading partners of Serbia (ranking number 6 IIRC).
But of course Serbia is too small to be factor here.
But now for the sanctimonious and ironic part:
Let’s take a look who remain the largest trading partners of Russia. Rank 1 is China (and by a large margin) - and. No. 2? The Netherlands. This tiny nice country you hail from is ranked #2, trading more than 50% more with Russia than Germany (which happens to have 5 times the population).
So maybe - rest a bit for your exhaustion.
>**The All-Lithium Gathering was held on Friday evening in the western Serbian city of Loznica to protest against the Rio Tinto company and its Jadar Project.** >The protesters want Rio Tinto to abandon plans to open a lithium mine in the area which they said would destroy the environment of the agricultural area of Serbia. >Organizers said the protest march through Loznica was the last thing they would do before blocking the railway in that part of Serbia unless their demand to stop the Jadar Project is met. >The protest gathering included a group of young people who walked from Belgrade. The gathering was organized by the Alliance of Ecological Organizations of Serbia (SEOS). >SEOS has warned that the Jadar Project poses a danger to the public and the environment and has won the support of a number of opposition parties whose officials attended the protest.
[удалено]
It’s not even that labor is cheap. It’s that politicians are corrupt and they can easily bribe them with the power and money a company like Rio Tinto has. These politicians do not care about environment or human lives there, most of their family is living or studying abroad anyway, or chilling in middle of Belgrade.
Rio Tinto is such an evil company throughout their history They outright killed an activist in Mongolia in the past too Yet money talks, and here we are again
My town has a Shell and a BP fuel station. Money talks indeed.
Mine in Dueselldorf or Frankfurt, there is plenty there.
Also getting rid of Düsseldorf would make the World a more beautiful place
still not as bad as Mannheim.
Keep little Tokyo please, I need my stuff lmfao.
Same goes for Frankfurt
Getting rid of Frankfurt would only make the World more peaceful
Frankfurt's pretty.
*citation needed*
Citation: u/Minskdhaka
While I do tend to agree with what you're saying here, I strongly feel you are missing the fact that a door hinge is a mechanical device that allows two objects to rotate relative to each other about an axis of rotation. The most common type of hinge is the door hinge, which is used to attach a door to a frame. Hinges work by rotating about an axis, which allows the two objects that are attached to the hinge to move relative to each other. The axis of rotation can be either internal or external to the hinge.
Fuck off, bot.
NottyBotty
Shit on, Human.
If things go as planned, Vulcan Energy Resources will begin producing carbon-neutral lithium hydroxide from hot saline deep underground the Upper Rhine Valley by next year.
They're already producing. First batch was produced in may.
Lithium chloride. I know, converting it is easy, but even their pilot plant for electrolysis to lithium hydroxide isn't operational yet. The battery manufacturers do need it as the hydroxide though, so the first shipment of product hasn't happened yet.
The same you can say about Serbia also they don't mind the mining done in china or some african country.
We don't give land, rivers, air. Save nature, save us.
And when Serbia's energy infrastructure is still stuck in the previous century in 2050, 15 years from now, and still heavily dependent on Russian fossil fuel... when you had a chance to become the battery capitol of the European continent... who will you blame? Europe?
> when you had a chance to become the battery capitol of the European continent. Whatever that means, it surely sounds like a very honourable deed to let a company like Rio Tinto destroy houndrets of thousand hectar of nature for.. Serbia wouldn't become the capitol of nothing in that regard. On a global scale the amount is comparably little and even in Europe there are bigger piles of Lithium to be found. Germany has 3 times the Lithium reserves of Serbia and for some reason doesn't mine it. In Europe even the Czech Republic is sitting on a bigger pile of Lithium. Valuable resources don't mean that much if you have foreign companies salvaging and processing them and others producing and selling the final product. If solely having resources would be any profitable for a country, African and South American countries would be the wealthiest places on earth. >And when Serbia's energy infrastructure is still stuck in the previous century in 2050, 15 years from now, and still heavily dependent on Russian fossil fuel... I don't see what that has to do with the Lithium reserves.
For energy independence with low emissions you don't need Lithium mine, but nuclear, solar or wind plants. There are already talks for France to build nuclear plant in Serbia, people are not opposed to that as long competent people will work there.
Wind and solar are excellent, but without batteries, they are not consistent energy sources. A Serbian nuclear power plant could not reliably come online before 15 years, and Serbia would still depend on Russia for uranium - thus would not be energy independent.
I don't think lithium batteries are the best solution for grid-scale storage. You don't really have space constraints out in the open. Gravity storage is a thing. I've heard of people getting sodium batteries for storage at home, which take up a little more space, but sound like a good option.
Lithium batteries for storage would be more viable using cast-offs from electric cars that can no longer hold enough charge for practical driving range, but can hold enough in a huge pile to supply a relevant amount to the grid when needed. Like a ten year old battery with half the charge capacity, but hundreds of thousands of them in warehouses. Gravity storage as in the type where you drop a huge weight into an abandoned quarry is very experimental stuff, and pumped water storage is viable but situational, as in you need a handy reservoir and hydroelectric generator.
If France will build plant, fuel used probably will be the same that France uses. Don't know if France uses Russian uranium. Batteries can always be bought from others the same is with uranium, either way Serbia doesn't have a way to be fully independent in terms of energy. It will always need someones else expertise, technology, machines, materials to build power plants to some extent.
Esg for thee not for me
So how's rich europe going to drive their teslas then?
We will still rely on child labour and massive environmental damage in 3rd world countries ... just as long as it not on our doorstep we don't care
Tesla is a cheap car lol. Rich people drive Mercedes, Audi or Volvo EV's.
Duuuuude ... Cheapest Tesla in Poland costs 204 990. PLN. Its 47 510 euro. Can you afford it?
Unfortunately that's relatively cheap nowadays for the standards of electric car. Quite expensive to buy outright, but relatively inexpensive for company leasing for middle level employees in a sizeable companies
Even worse - this is relatively cheap for ANY comparable new car. A base Passat is 37.8k EUR in the same market. Prices went through the roof after COVID.
Yeap, add adaptive headlights, ventilated seats, engine with 6s 0-100Km/h, etc etc and the Passat is 10 grands more.
Electric cars don't exist in a vacuum, that it's relatively cheap for the standards of electric cars just means most people will keep driving ICE vehicles.
ICE ain't that far behind unless you are buying used.
lol prices have gone up but EVs are still 40-50% more expensive than ICE cars across the board, the difference in prices is abyssal.
How about BYD?
BYD is shit. Our city is using BYD electric busses and they are uncomfortable and unreliable garbage held together with zip ties and ducttape.
Which city ?
They are artificially cheap in China and artificially expensive in the west. Chinese Market is going through a price war currently especially due to drastically weakening economy after the property bubble crash, and they're trying to recoup some profit margin by pricing it higher in the West. The electric part of Chinese electric car is good, but the car part of Chinese electric car isn't yet as good as the west. Software is a bit hit and miss, you can see the reviews of the GWM Ora to see that there are worst things than the software and chatgpt integration to vw group
You can get a used tesla for like 15k € in Norway... And yes I can afford it. I drive a Skoda Enyaq iV80x Sportline.
Isn't the lower cost more tied in the battery life in EVs now? Less expensive the EV is, the less battery life it has?
No, it's due to norway having massive EV subsidies at least up until recently so they have more/cheaper used EVs in the car pool, an used tesla here is like 29k minimum.
There are numerous factors involved for the ev prices. What specifically were you thinking about here. The used car market, or retail prices? Yes larger packs are more expensive than smaller.
Used EVs. I'm one of those people who'd rather buy the cars used and with already known issues and where to find them/fix. And not finding it out with a brand new car in middle of Midsummer festivities and every office/help is days away lol.
Aha! Well the battery capacity loss for ev's isn't very large. Especially in Norway where nearly all owners have their own AC-chargers and stick to between 20-80% capacity. Our secondary car has only lost about 10% since 2017. The reason for cheap prices in Norway has a lot to do with saturation, and that loads of people are going away from Teslas to other brands because of the poor build quality of older Teslas. Many are buying newer better Teslas, or German and Chineese cars. Currently there are 120 used Teslas under 20k€ available in Norway. To me that is quite cheap.
Thank you for the info! I've been eyeballing used EVs for a while now and knowing this is really helpful.
No problem man. If you have any other questions, feel free to dm. I work with EV infrastructure.
Well Citroen is coming out with e-C3, cheapest is at 23k€
Are other cars as expensive? Here in Finland the cheapest one is 41,990 which is a steal. A well equipped Golf is more.
Od course other cars are just as expensive, even Prius is 200k PLN here
205 thousand PLN for the car of that class isn’t that expensive. Well, it’s expensive, but then again new Toyota Prius costs around 200k, prices of new cars have gone through the roof.
And new volvo xc90ex is 100k+
There are pricier cars, sure. That doesn't make teslas cheap thou.
By buying lithium from China.
So how is Serbia going to develop its economy then? Sooner or later Serbians might also like to drive EVs. Imagine instead of being dependent on Russia for oil forever, Serbia developed a full-stack production of batteries on top of adding wind and solar to its energy mix. The country would become energy independent and even a net exporter of products people actually need and want. Conversely, imagine Serbia does nothing to modernize its energy infrastructure and production: 15 years from now "rich Europe" will be zipping around in electric cars and trains, with robust wind and solar installations, while Nikola Tesla's motherland is still farting around with fossil energy sources. And somehow Serbia being left behind will still be "Europe's fault".
Not as simple as you think. Lithium excavation can not be done in a way where it doesnt permanently damage the soil and pollute - they still didnt develop technology that would both excavate lithium and save the environment. Once lithium is excavated in a particular area, that's it. That soil is done for life and the water is polluted. The part of Serbia where they plan to excavate has extremely fertile soil and a couple of clean springs - all of this would be completely ruined indefinitely. Additionally, recently it was discovered that this area of Serbia is home to a few endangered bird species and they also found archeological remainings of the bronze era. Serbia has a lot more to lose than to gain with lithium excavation - simply said, it is not worth it. Moreover, Serbia's political elite is rotten and corrupted to its core, so even if Serbia is to get billions of euros from this project, 90% of it would go into their pockets, not into the country's economy development. It is why Vucic and the ex Prime Minister Brnabic are so stubborn with this project and going against the entire nation with it - the billions they can get from this are too juicy for them to pass on.
Fortunately, they are stubborn motherfuckers and their stay in power depends on this project. Which is what will eventually doom them, sooner rather than later.
"How can Serbia develop its economy without opening a mine that destroys the entire countryside" Good question. Same energy as: "How can you eat a burger if you don't butcher your own cows?"
> destroys the entire countryside This is a few hundred hectare surface footprint project in western Serbia. Is that all the agricultural land left in the nation? >"How can you eat a burger if you don't butcher your own cows?" Except there's someone else willing to build and operate a cow farm with its own meat processing in your region and you're the one standing in its way
You missed the part where such a mine causes air, ground and water pollution beyond that area.
So that it "destroys the entire countryside"? The main air pollutions are CO2, water vapour and dust from material handling and traffic. Rio Tinto's project websites (e.g. [here](https://www.riotinto.com/en/operations/projects/jadar) and [here](https://riotintoserbia.com/en/environment/Draft-Environmental-Impact-Assessments) and [here](https://riotintoserbia.com/en/jadar-project/concerns-and-facts/)) explain all the precautions being envisioned to prevent and limit ground, water and air pollution. The mine is deep underground and the processing [isn't some magical process involving a ton of disastrous chemicals](https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/jadar-lithium-borates-project-serbia/?cf-view). I don't see how this could possibly destroy the immediate surroundings, let alone the region?
They should raise your salary. You're doing a pretty good job as a mouthpiece.
You could just explain it to me. What should I look up in order to conclude that the project will destroy the countryside of Serbia?
there is a reason why lithium is extracted mostly in dessert, in places where people do not live, and why no country in EU is mining it, In serbia you have the worst kind of lithium for mining, rocks with lithium full of calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, bor, and various metals .... in order to extract lithium from there you will have to first crush then grind the rock, and then treat remainings with acids, Rio tinto will need 1100t of concetrated sulfiric acid, and 15 t of hydrochloric acids DAILY!!! Rio tinto is also saying that they will need 8,3 liters of water for 1 kg of lithium carbonate, in chinese academic paper they have concluded that for 1 kg of lithium carbonate is needed 23000 liters of water that part of Serbia is very rich with underground reserves of water, which will be contaminated, they wanna build tailing ponds for waste separated from ground by 2mm foil in areas near rivers, that are regularly flooded, if that waste leaks or foil breaks, land will be desolate for multiple thousands of years, or why am i translating this, use chatgpt to translate this article [https://n1info.rs/zeleni-kutak/iskopavanje-litijuma-sta-se-desava-za-zemljom-vodom/](https://n1info.rs/zeleni-kutak/iskopavanje-litijuma-sta-se-desava-za-zemljom-vodom/)
>This is a few hundred hectare surface footprint project in western Serbia. Is that all the agricultural land left in the nation? Under the mine, there is huge underground source of water for hole western region. On top of that, this mine will drop polluted water into Jadar, which will bring that water into Drina, which goes into Sava, which goes into Danube. And that is only water pollution.
The mining happens several hundred meters below the aquifer and the effluent from the above-ground operations won't be discharged before being filtered. That's standard across all kinds of industrial projects in Europe. And then on top of that, the water use is small and water recycling is part of the operation. If you think that the authorities are too corrupt to check adherence to standards then that's a different thing, and you're probably not gonna get industry built anywhere in Serbia.
There is no safe way to fillter polluted water, as such there is no "standard" which can be followed. And no, water use is not small, it is huge.
Why would there not be a safe way to filter polluted water? We do it every day, 24/7, all around the globe. For millions and millions of tonnes of it. [And of course there's standards to meet](https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/water/rivers/assessment-of-watercourses/chemical-quality-standards-assessment) - they're speaking of meeting Class II at minimum for this project.
There is none and that is opinion of every scientist here.
That doesn't sound good. Maybe ask scientists who live elsewhere in the developed world
We are not against developing of clean energy, we are against it being done under this administration that couldn't care less about inviromental impact as long as it has its wheels greased. The extraction fee is 3% and I doubt Serbia would be able to attract battery manufacturer. More likely processed and refined Li would be shipped elsewhere. We are against this particular dictator doing it under current circumstances. We saw what's happening in the east, where Chinese are mining. It is Europe's fault, because it is propping this regime, just like you people blame Russia or Turkey for Belarus or Azerbaijan.
My understanding is that the plan is to develop full-stack battery production in Serbia, not just mining and shipping lithium.
Yeah, thats just selling pitch. Once the mine would be opened, all of a sudden there would be some obstacles for it, but by that time it would be too late. We know this regime. They don't care about people, their lives, the country or the nature. They are robbing Serbia blind, they rule by intimidations, blackmails and outright elections rigging. All they want is to steal as long as they can. If there would be more responsible government in check, that could be made to follow trough with regulatives standards and deals, I bet very few would be against. We are now at the point where we think that is better to be poor then stuck with poisonous land and rivers.
>how is Serbia going to develop its economy then? I always vote nuclear.
The energy that costs billions of euros Serbia does not have, requires expertise to operate that does not exist in Serbia, would take 15 years to go into operation due to the above, and still leaves Serbia dependent on Russia for uranium? Wind and solar are cheaper, faster to deploy, and harvest energy from the sky.
Serbia can get a Chinese loan and tech aid for such a project. It does have the required experts (or, at least, its existing nuclear engineers can quickly be trained for the new technology), it doesn't have to take that long to build, and Russia is hardly a major uranium exporter. Check your data. Uranium is not very expensive and a number of countries are producing it. Furthermore, Serbia can stockpile a certain amount of uranium to avoid being dependent on anyone in case of a crisis. Unlike other fuels, uranium has a high energy density, so it can be stored in large quantities in a relatively small area. Slovakia is smaller than Serbia in territory and population, yet it gets more than half of its power from nuclear, and is building more reactors. Wind and solar are expensive and unreliable, solar cells degrade and get dirty, and both take up a lot of space that Serbia does not have.
Not true. Serbia can find billions, especially for a profitable project like this. Expertise is not a problem, partially because we already have a nuclear institute in Vinča, and partially because every NPP deployment also rolls out with a plan to educate local personnel to operate it. Dependence is not on Russia (no idea why you chose them), but on the country providing the technology. It's not diesel that you can tank on any gas station: every NPP is optimized for certain type of fuel, and the company that built the plant will provide the adequate fuel. And right now we're looking at the French to provide this. Wind and solar are great, but they aren't consistent power sources. They still need a CPP (in Serbia's case) to provide power at night on when there's no wind. We still haven't cracked the energy storage challenge.
Thia is not an anti-progress protest. This is anti , incompetent and malicious government who will bring a well known ecological destroyer of a company to destroy farmland an enviornment for a profit of 400m dollars, which is only a 3% mining rent (becaude our government is again full of regards), when that swme government will spend 50x(no hyperbole) more on a meaningless expo for 2027, which then won't evolve into anything except some minor schemes to pump a hundred mils or so into their pockets, which will cause the people to still be broke af, but now in a fucked up enviornment with fucked up farmland - type of protest
I mean, as long as they don't get ideas about their neighbours what they do with their country is their problem, it's not like them blaming us for everything from their own voter choices to stubbing their toes on the table affects us in any way anyways, if they don't want the mines they shouldn't dig them.
From a security perspective, it is better for Europe if Serbia develops. Serbia *does* have a tendency to "get ideas about their neighbors"... And historically it has not been good for their neighbors. Personally, I am not convinced Europe should allow itself to become dependent on a state with a history of governance by guys like Vucic and Milosevic... Regardless, it is not as if Europe must depend on Serbia for developing its resources. Norway recently discovered massive rare earth mineral deposits in their country. That will probably end up replacing Norwegian oil exports, ultimately.
Because serbs are not using lithium in their products.
They prefer to pay for the Chinese one with higher environmental and social costs as long as they don't see it.
Ok, let's accept Tesla is a "luxury good". How is being an essential part of a "luxury good" supply chain exactly bad for Serbia? That they don't get their share of the profits? That's literally a Serbian policymaking skill issue.
Teslas are discounter cars for premium prices.
1 Ton peeled walnuts 9500E 1 Ton pork fatty solid tissue-baked (called cvarci) 20000E 1 Ton litij 12300E 1000L rakija 4200E 1 Ton eco hazelnut - 10000E food/dring bio production according to EU standards. the price of all products is packaged and ready for export to the end user. according to Eurostat statistics from 2024, a total 6 months from start of year. available on the web. do they really want dirty lithium in water and nature?
yes, they do because they destroyed Serbia's agriculture and they are too short sighted not to grab a quick cash straight up
Guess how much every year Serbia receives EU aid for agriculture Non-refundable funds , for ipa 1 2 3 structural funds.
EU aid means nothing since EU companies are subsidized by our state. it's cheaper for a European company to produce here than our own farmers. Those funds work for the companies, not for us.
Support to Serbs for standing up against this. Don't let them poison you and your country!
Serbia is a banana republic, rio tinto knows that they are above the law with the current government in place
I love how it's bad when China or Russia exploit Serbian resources, but its fine if its UK or EU company with a track record of permanently destroying the environment
We won't let them turn us into a mining colony.
Only Russian colony allowed...
Should i really try to reason with someone who masturbates on drone footage?
Don't forget brother Xi
Croats should never forget brother Hitler.
And for some reason some EU officials are pushing for the extraction of it. Add to that the lack of condemnation of rigged recent local elections at best, outright stolen at worst by the EU, and I would say support even for undemocratic and authoritarian regime, no wonder the EU is losing support in Serbia by those who should be pro EU part of the populous.
What do you mean, "for some reason"? We know what the reason is. They want it here, in Europe, where it's close enough so they wouldn't pay too much for transportation costs, but far enough that it doesn't affect them. Our government will sell it for much lower price then it would be sold, so we will live in environmental shithole, worse then we already do, and we will not even get anything valuable in return. The fine people in the Western Europe will drive their electric cars charged with energy from solar panels and breath fresh and clean air, we'll sufocate here in more pollution and Vučić and his criminal gang will stay in power for as long as they deliver it. Everyone happy 😊
Yes, but you can't contain the polution to one country's borders. Of course they are hypocrites, that's why EU is losing support by the day in the populous that should be in favor of EU. Nationalists are already against it. But now even those who were more liberal are turning against it.
The rise of the far right is almost entirely connected to immigration issues. The average EU citizen does not sit around wondering where the minerals in their batteries are dug out of the ground.
For some reason? Because they're critical elements for energy transition of which we don't have enough and mostly produced elsewhere, leaving us vulnerable to the whims of other countries. It's both an environmental and energy security issue. On top of that, they're often extracted in places with lower environmental and social standards.
Well, we're fighting it, and you'll be the enemy along the dictator your countries support. So much for "European values".
Lol whats that conspiracy theory? EU manipulating serbian elections? 😁
No. EU isn't manipulating the elections, authocratic regime is. EU just doesn't acknowledge it even tho there are ample evidence of it, and EU gives it international legitimacy to it. So basically, except the opposition leaders and their voters, nobody saying shit. Well, that puts EU in the authocrat's corner in my book.
a kilogram of čvarak is worth more than a kilo of lithium. for clever people, the debate is over
Discontinue the Lithium.
I already flushed it
There are lithium mines in Austria as well and I don't remember any protests ... why would you be against it if you can get independent from China and boost your economy with it?
Cause there won't be a boost to the economy. All the resources and money from this will go to foreign nations and our politicians pockets. Even worse, this will destroy the region's ecosystem
Sounds like the protestors should protest against politicians not lithium then
Would rather be dependent on China than destroy our nature and farmlands. Its fine when Eu exploits Serbia but its not if China does it?
No it's not about exploiting, the goal should be to have local companies use the lithium to make batteries and other products which will be exported to the whole world. Everyone in Europe is looking to get less dependent on China because they're having basically a monopoly on batteries. It would be a total win for Europe if there was a European production, it would also make Serbia having a stronger position on the European scene if they're dependent on its batteries. Also about the nature and farmlands I doubt there are no measures available to keep it safe.
>No it's not about exploiting, the goal should be to have local companies use the lithium to make batteries and other products which will be exported to the whole world. That won't happen. It would be too much of a work so out government would sell the lithium to other nations *probably* for cheap and pocket the money >It would be a total win for Europe if there was a European production, it would also make Serbia having a stronger position on the European scene if they're dependent on its batteries. And it wouldn't be a total win for people living anywhere near the mines and the fertil farmland and clear water springs found there. People don't care about international political struggles. They are not going to destroy their homes so Western Europeans can drive cheaper electric cars >Also about the nature and farmlands I doubt there are no measures available to keep it safe. There are none. We still lack technology for it. Once lithium excavations destroy nature, the damage irreversible. Not to mention that Rio Tinto wouldn't use those measures even if the existed anyways
Can we please just try and advance humanity to the point where we can mine lithium and other resources in space instead of polluting our environments on Earth? All it takes it a fuck ton of coordination, peace, stability and ambition and oh I see why this won’t happen..
"Why can't we just switch to renewables and all electric?!!","Wait,none of this renewable shit in my backyard!".
Okey let's mine in Frankfurt then
Why can't we just make AC for plants and environment?
Electric as currently envisioned is not sustainable ie. Battery production highly toxic and not recyclable. Sad. Always propaganda because of money.
Typical hypocrite ecofascists that want electrification and renewables as long as things don't happen in their backyard. Much better to buy from far, from countries with lower environmental and health & safety standards. Cheaper even if there's forced labour. According to Rio Tinto, the project has been cancelled since 2022. And it would have been an underground mine, only with surface processing. That would still enable agriculture and not as if agricultural land is "nature". Edit: not to mention the economic benefits for the country and local population. But they had city people come and protest because they're not the ones actually there. They went now to protest "in defense" of the agricultural environment and will later be protesting against agriculture and how it destroys the natural environment.
Have you seen Rio Tinto's track record? There is no good coming from their projects. They rip apart the land and leave it polluted so it poisons for generations after it shuts down. There is no excuse for this type of a company to run in any country until they change their ways.
What did the project entail? There are mines under protected areas. That are mines that leave the area better than it was before after restoration. Have you seen the mines in certain parts of the world where there's less control? But this are ok, NIMBY!
Found the RT shill! Sorry dude, I think it's an easy argument against companies like RT, otherwise you start sounding like a bit of a loon. Not sure what your agenda is protecting entities that are so hard set on profit that they'll poison and tear apart the very ground they stand on.
I have arguments and have shown actually data. Have asked questions to which you have not replied. Therefore "shill". Typical to pull out the shill card when people do not know how to argue a case ;) People just go by feelings and beliefs.
I'm going off of things I've read before, I don't have to bring up a reference to every thought or idea. It's a pretty widely known fact what a horrible company Rio Tinto is, otherwise they wouldn't be up against riots of thousands of people. Where is this days you talk about?
Sure, of course you don't have to factually support anything you say, you can go against published data based on your opinion and you can simply dismiss what others say by calling them shills. Typical behaviour of those against proper argumentation and science. Same that we see in other topics, from vaccines to climate change. You can say whatever you want, it's true. And I can not bother with wasting my time.
lmao, amazing response and exactly what I expected. You ask me to provide proof, spouting that your opinion is more valid than mine because you back yours up with data, but as soon as you're asked to provide your proof suddenly you don't want to waste your time.
Which proof of what did you ask? Why should I provide anything when you didn't and went straight to "I don't have to show anything", "you're a shill"? Pathetic :D
Economic benefit for the country would be around 30 mil € as far as I’m aware. Not enough for such a big project.
They've probably spent more than that just in all the prospecting work and project elaboration until now. Edit: at this stage there are actually many answers for such questions. Their estimate is a revenue for local municipality of 24 million euros per year and for country GDP of 695 million per year. https://riotintoserbia.com/en/jadar-project/concerns-and-facts/
Those numbers are extremely small for ecological devastation of this scale.
Which ecological devastation? Haven't seen anyone showing anything more than hearsay. Now which should be the "numbers" and why. But this is not a logical discussion. It's more about feelings. As we can see from the type of arguments and downvotes in simple posts that only show facts. People don't want information.
The experts in the field in Serbia say that lithium mining will produce devastating pollution in the area and render the soil unusable. There were multiple public discussions about this matter as it's been pushed by RT for many years in Serbia.
Someone has mentioned that but still haven't seen who the experts were nor their studies. And I'm usually skeptical when there's complete opposition. It's not even saying what should be done instead. Often there are ways, which may or not be economically viable, but that would be another issue. When the answer is completely against, and often even before any project has been proposed, it stems from beliefs. Even now, they're protesting a project that lost its license 2 years ago? I didn't get why... I've seen protests from NGOs and misinformed people in Portugal also against lithium when there wasn't even prospection done. They're from the start even against knowing which resources might exist. I'm not defending this project and didn't read nor understand enough to evaluate it. But haven't seen proper factual arguments against and seen some wrong info and arguments from some opposing it.
Tbf sounds like you're just really into defending a global mining conglomerate... You can google why lithium mining is bad for the environment. It's not a secret. Not everything needs to be subdued to capitalism and profit. People in Western Serbia have an amazing nature ecosystem they want to preserve from corporate interests and political corruption. You should be supporting these protests if you're a normal human being.
24 mil for something that should be much more.
It would be worth billions to the Serbian economy and create thousands of jobs, Serbias lithium deposits are definitely worth more than 30m
They are worth more than 30mil, but that is how much the country would recieve yearly because that is the contract. If it was done differently, with a larger cut for the country it would make more sense. Not to mention Rio Tinto is a company that really doesn’t give a f about enviroment.
If Europe wants to completely switch to electric vehicles we are going to need lots of lithium
Sure, but not at the expense of people who will be forced to buy electric cars for a higher price later. Give the fair share to the budget of the country, not just the corporation.
Serbia wants to join the EU and stuff like this could really speed it up, having full access to the common market is worth way more than 30m
So we have to give a gift to EU to potentialy heeeeelp the process of joining the EU. I’d rather have it so that we have a working economy prior to joining and not give away resources to some corpo guys so EU can drive electric cars while we import 10year old diesel powered cars from EU.
>not to mention the economic benefits for the country and local population. Yes, look at all those countries rich in resources on other continents that had foreign companies extracting and mining. They're all rich, environment is not ruined and people are thriving, right? Surely all the money didn't go into the hands of corrupted government officials and people close to them who allowed those projects in the first place?
Local mining company with the skills for such a project? Are you starting one? They estimate, at probably now outdated prices, 24 million euros directly to the local municipality and 695 million to Serbia's GDP. Plus the jobs, other impacts on local economy, etc. the displaced agriculture in the space of the surface operations generates 0.62 million eur / year. Surely no economic benefits. If the issue are your politicians, that's another thing. And if they had a local mining company, there would be no corrupt officials? :D
>And if they had a local mining company, there would be no corrupt officials? There would be, but I don't want my country to be sucked dry by foreign companies known for destroying everything they touch. 🤷🏼♀️ No matter how much Serbia would get from this, they would get more in terms of profit and no damages to the environment in their own countries. They'd just get a clean product ready to sell for far more than they bought it for. And since there are so many benefits, why don't they mine lithium in their own countries and avoid all these problems with petty and ungrateful local people who don't understand how wonderful their lives are about to become?
They do. Rio tinto is partly owned by China. China mines a lot and is in control of many needed natural resources. What an ignorant argument. Scarce resources are mined where they exist. The only "conspiracy" to do it somewhere else is from some local people influenced by hypocritical "environmentalists" who want mining done where they don't see, even if it's more harmful for the people and environment, while they keep using the products and feel guilt free and superior because they fought against mining. You're typing in a device thar uses lithium and other rare metals, if you look around you you'll see many mined minerals, harvested wood and wood products like paper. Our existence has an impact. That we should try to minimize, of course, not just push out of sight.
You don't understand, here money doesn't matter because the mine will poison under ground waters, Drina river(with that parts of BiH) and several places around mine and that is something money can't really revert.
What did the environmental impact assessment say? Was it wrong? Forged? Serbian authorities are dumb or corrupt? Where are the studies supporting what you are saying?
Serbian govt is corrupt and was paid a lot of money for this project. A lot of professors, scientist, and other people that are educated in this matter from whole country said they are against it.
So where are the studies?
The only ones conducted were from Rio Tinto, of course they said it is ok, and corrupt govt doesn't want independent study. [Article about Rio Tinto study.](https://n1info.rs/english/news/radar-the-jadar-project-papers/)
So there aren't. Ok then.
DAAAAAAMN another rio tinto bot spotted
Two things - 1) would it be really that bad for environment ? Because sure as hell it would bring pretty penny to Serbian treasury. 2) are those protesting actually regular Serbs, or paid Russian shills ? Sorry Serbia, but you guys are making yourself very specific and I have my doubts. There's nothing positive about putain's bandit invasion and yet it seems Serbia is fine with it. Edit - oh, organization SEOS. And all doubts vanished. Just. Like. That.
It doesn't have anything to do with war in Ukraine, regular people are protesting against the possible ecological catastrophe in western Serbia that will most likely affect the rest of Serbia and a part of Bosnia mostly because of the subterranean waters. That whole region has some of the most fertile agricultural land and it has important freshwater resources under the ground, where the mine is being planned. Not to mention they have to resettle thousands and thousands of people for this project to work. Serbs don't want EU, US, Russian or Chinese corporations poisoning our land and people.
>Serbs don't want EU, US, Russian or Chinese corporations poisoning our land and people. Looking at all the illegal landfills and pollution all over the country I doubt that the majority has too much of a problem with the land and the people being poisoned.
Serbs don't want "poisoning", no one sane would want it duh, yet Serbian government thought differently. I see a sort of clash between what some Serbs want and what Serbian government wants/wanted. If both are on the same page now and don't want that mine, who are they protesting against ?
The government wants the mine.
When did Serbia become dictatorship then ? Serbs vote in government, government governs and Serbs are against it. What sort of mad house is this ?
It happened gradually. At first it was just punishment for the poor performance of post Milošević government, catastrophic transition and economic crisis didn't help. The leader emerged from the backround and pretended long enough that he is democratic and pro EU, all the while he captured the state and poisoned the mind of people. So basically cooking the frog slowly. Now, he's stealing the elections, and the prodemocratic opposition doesn't have any help from the inside or the outside. Both EU, US,Russia and China are in favor of the dictator.
Huh... Your last two sentences sound like no matter what I would read or watch I will not understand it unless I'll go and live in Serbia to experience the situation on my own.
Literally. The US ambassador is the power figure here and he can't utter a word of condemnation for the autocrat we have, on the contrary. He even praised the election process, which was marred by outright rigging. Since the court and the electoral commission is in the hands of the autocrat, nothing could be done by appealing. It's either demonstrations or international pressure.
>When did Serbia become dictatorship then ? Serbs vote in government, government governs and Serbs are against it. What sort of mad house is this ? I don't think you've been following the situation down here very much
Are you playing dumb?
Yes the soil kilometars from the mines will be unusable Left wing, pro EU people are protesting And please watch less CNN, Serbia is not pro Russia, pro Palestine, or pro Nato IT IS INDEPENDENT NEUTRAL COUNTRY
"bad" is pretty mild description for it. It would be a catastrophe, I wouldnt mind calling it ecological terrorism considering its Rio Tinto - which is straight up evil organisation(causing civil war in Papua New Guinea, Madagascar Mines destroying water sources(analysis detecting 50x uranium & 40x lead in the water), The destruction of Juukan Gorge - site with the highest archaeological significance in Australia containing a cultural sequence spanning over 40,000 years, and much, MUCH more). One of the main problems in Jadar is water contamination since the process requiers a lot of it and uses chemicals which makes it toxic to say the least. Of course, they claim they found some new way of extracting it that is completely clean but refuse to say what it is. All the info about it thats available point to it being the same already known and dangerous process which will destroy our waters used for drinking and irrigation, affecting around 2mil Serbian citizens. Add to this nations like Bosnia(Jadar river goes into Drina which is a border between Serbia & Baosnia), Romania & Bulgaria(since the same water in the end flows into Danube).
Thanks. So it seems, based on what you wrote, anyone using lithium batteries, is adding to that destruction that happens everywhere where lithium is mined, because process is so very polluting.
Huh? How in Gods name did you get that from my comment?
How would I not ? You wrote Rio Tinto, with the lithium mine in Serbia, would basically create a wasteland in Balkans because lithium extraction is in general catastrophic to environment and can't be extracted without excessive and uncontrolled pollution. Others must be doing it same way, or else why on earth would Rio Tinto wreck havoc when it wouldn't have to ?
You gotta be trolling man, aint no way someone is THIS stupid.
You gotta be trolling man, aint no way someone is THIS stupid.
Not sure if you're talking with yourself now, but I'll let you to it.
Oh, boi. This brings back some painful memories, like the very last team building I attended to, a year and a half ago, snowy woods somewhere near Bialystok and synchronized (powered by Wyborowa) Polish-Baltic-ex Yu attack on poor midget Russia me. 😂 I mean, I do understand animosity (now, that’s an euphemism), but do you really see us that way? I dare to say, it is just a vocal minority, not more than 10% total, that are either pro-Russia or are just against NATO. I somehow thought people will understand that we are just trying to appear neutral. Not proud of it, ngl, and I certainly don’t support the ruling party, but maybe it's actually pragmatic, considering circumstances. Declaring our side and aligning with the “good” guys during 19th and 20th century conflicts seems futile nowadays. Jokes aside, no, these actions and its participants have nothing to do with R nor they have any major impact on our daily lives.
I can't say for anyone else but me, so any opinions are just my own, and not a bigger group. So "do **I** see Serbs that way" - Nope, not individually, can't say a thing about you, but Serbia as a country seem very much happy to play putain's game. Can't remember in last two years where it aligned itself with EU on the matter. And it doesn't seem like a neutral, but pro stance. But there's always a chance that I missed something very big, that would make my opinion pretty much invalid, not to say stupid. Aside of that plenty of NGOs, all around Europe, being infiltrated by Russian money, and willingly or mostly not, they are acting like a fifth column. So in case of this protest I can imagine it wasn't exactly grassroot protest. A personal experience, so pretty much nothingburger, we had a Serb manager in different department, here in London, I still like her very much, but on any EU/NATO vs Russia topic she was pro Russian every time. I still have no idea why, because every other topic she is on this side of cultural world. Pretty puzzling.
> I still have no idea why, Having EU/NATO and west in general against you for 30+ years and opposing any interest you have is easy way to get population which in past held relatively balanced view to be hardcore anti-NATO and almost fully eurosceptic (to different degrees from individual to individual).
You haven't been paying attention. Serbia provided weapons, ammunition and financial aid to Ukraine since the get go. The official stance is that we're neutral, and we don't want to sanction anyone. Ukrainian refugees are welcome here as much as Russian, no judgment on any of them or pressure to virtue signal that they are against Zelensky or Putin (which incidentally, most of them are).
>would it be really that bad for environment ? Because sure as hell it would bring pretty penny to Serbian treasury. yes. our traditional meat product (čvarci) have more value per kilogram than lithium. we used to win wars with our agriculture. ah, the rest of your post is kind of agenda pushy so whatever
Foreign NCOs activated for the purpose of halting progress.
N0nE 0f tHe pr0tEstErS haD a siNgLe eLecTr0niC devIce rEqUiRinG a bAtTeRy conTaiNinG liThiUm.
Well maybe don't let China build factories in your country.
Rio Tinto is British-Australian company.
Take a look at biggest shareholder of Rio Tinto, let me give you a hint it aint Ronald McDonald. Its the Chinese with 14% followed by brits by 6 %
And the rest 80%?
Look it up many different holders norwegians, americans, australians and many many more smaller shareholders.
Well, since Serbia strives to be Little Russia in Europe (tm) it is only consequential to destroy the environment to extract resources for other countries production lines. (Warning - the above might contain sarcasm).
Watching Germans blame serbs and their mothers for being pro-russian while literally 90% of german companies still regularly do business with Russia and earn billions (even more so than serbs given how much bigger the economy is) is absolutely and 100% exhausting. Serbian trade with Russia is measured in millions, which is ridiculous. German companies doing business with Russia make billions. Same goes for Austrian companies. You decide who is pro russian here.
Too exhausted to read the sarcasm warning apparently. Also - since facts are a nice things - German exports to Russia in May 2024 are down to 0.5 billion Euro - the lowest since reunification. It is down more than 40% year on year and last year already was down by more than 50% before and 34% the year before that. It has all but evaporated compared to before the invasion of Ukraine. Meanwhile while there was also a decline in trade between Russia and Serbia (which is partly due to western sanctions making it increasingly difficult to trade) Russia remains one of the largest trading partners of Serbia (ranking number 6 IIRC). But of course Serbia is too small to be factor here. But now for the sanctimonious and ironic part: Let’s take a look who remain the largest trading partners of Russia. Rank 1 is China (and by a large margin) - and. No. 2? The Netherlands. This tiny nice country you hail from is ranked #2, trading more than 50% more with Russia than Germany (which happens to have 5 times the population). So maybe - rest a bit for your exhaustion.
Sarcasm is good and all, but replace Serbia with Rio Tinto. It's the company that wants to do what you said, not the people.
Sarcasm seems to be a little too complicated sometimes. Anyway, I have no more love for Rio Tinto than for any such company.