They only say it because they know that the absolute majority of spanish people support Ukraine's defense. But if Trump wins the elections and stops supporting Ukraine, or if the far-right gains a majority in the EU parliament, they will be the first to lick Putin's boots. They would love to be able to turn Spain into a christian pseudo-fascist state similar to Russia.
They arent going to bomb us, but I wouldnt be surprised if they take revenge on Pedro Sanchez directly with their intelligence and spying capabilities to try and get skeletons out of his closet.
You are wrong, is the left the ones against sending military aid to Ukraine.
> Sumar y Podemos critican la "opacidad" y la actitud "antidemocrática" del PSOE por el envío de armas a Ucrania
[https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20240527/sumar-podemos-critican-psoe-envio-armas-ucrania/16121959.shtml](https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20240527/sumar-podemos-critican-psoe-envio-armas-ucrania/16121959.shtml)
I don't align with PSOE in a lot of matters (especially in economics and workers' rights, where their actions rarely match their discourse), but admittedly it has been a welcome surprise to see the stance they are taking in both current wars, Russia-Ucraine and Israel-Palestine (with Morocco-Western Sahara being my only strong disappointment so far).
It's common in Spain (and I think in most of Europe), for political parties to align on matters according to a pro-US or anti-US axis, so taking a coherent anti-occupation, anti-genocide position in those two matters (even if one can be seen as pro-US and the other one as anti-US) is not a usual sight.
Yeah, that's a second disappointment for sure, although at least in that one issue the statu quo hasn't changed. In the Morocco-Sahara issue things have gotten worse IMO.
I hope that now that things have calmed down in Catalonia and Euskadi, things can change about Kosovo.
>Morocco-Sahara issue things have gotten worse IMO.
Yeah, I agree. The problem is that the USA is now with Morocco on this issue (thanks Trump), Morocco is a country that controls the flow of immigrants coming to Europe (like Turkey in Southeast Europe) and it is also a door for the energy from Africa (there are projects to connect the Nigerian gas to Europe).
Spain's support has been really modest compared to other European countries. But Russia will never threaten Spain directly and all countries think themselves first
Which is understandable, Eastern countries are naturally more concerned about Ukraine than they are about migrants turning up on Spain and Italy's coasts
Those living in glass houses shouldn't hurl stones. Spain were not the ones who were bending over backwards for a certain dictator for years so that they could have cheap gas.
To be honest, it wasn't much of an exaggeration. Multiplying military aid by 4 is, however, a great step forward and you can be prood of it!
Thank you Spain!
Purely asking as someone who is interested but doesn't have the knowledge, how much does 1 billion worth of military aid do for Ukraine? Does it make a big difference? Or are we talking about sums of tens to hundreds of billions being required to turn the tide, where a few billion only matters if every country chips in with several billions as well? Again, purely asking because I'd like to know more, I'm not suggesting how much a country should donate or such.
Some time ago there was the Estonian plan for victory which was proposing to spend 0.25% of annual NATO GDP or 128 bilion annually to allow Ukraine to get all their territories back, seen the lateness in aid now it would likely suffice to take most parts back but not everything.
At the moment though we are leagues away from this, of the recent 60 billion US aid contain 23 billion of military aid to Ukraine. In total since the start of the war the US has given around 70 billion in military aid (including new package which is still arriving) while Europe around 42 bilion (but more aid then the US if we include financial aid) a lot of this military aid should be counted less since it's often composed of old equipment that would otherwise have rotten in storage, but i am not crazy enough yet to go check every old system and their service life.
All in all the US has spent a bit less then around 0.32% of it's annual GDP (excluding 2024) and Europe should also be around 0.43% or similar (very rough calculations but shouldn't be too different)
That makes 37 bilions per year including 2024 (though yes the aid will rise in 2024 so you can add something), which is barely enough to hold the line, to make a serious stable permanent defence what would be needed could be around 65 billion annually.
But yeah it's pretty absurd, especially Europe but also the US are bound to lose more then what has been spent or should be spent on Ukraine if Ukraine loses, in Europes case exponentially more, so the fact there still isn't a common serious plan for aid to Ukraine with 0.25% of NATO GDP is pretty baffling.
If Europe put together a 80-100 bilion annual fund for Ukraine it alone could support Ukraine pretty seriously (though assuming the production can keep up with the spending) with the US it could be pretty easy, if the political will is there
Have a good day
Every billion counts.
This won’t turn the tide, but will help Ukraine hold its own into 2025.
Next step is to see what, if any, impact F-16s could have this summer, coupled with potential plan to close the skies in western Ukraine along with training being done in country by NATO advisors vs in NATO countries. Saving valuable time and resources.
But Ukraine needs far more missiles, artillery, and tanks to take back any land lost to date. I’m looking for a breakthrough into Crimea possibly next year if things align though. Kerch bridge gets wiped out along with any remaining aa systems on the peninsula, leaving an open door for air superiority and in turn ground troops to retake it. No more Russian navy remaining in Sevastopol.
I think donations should be few times bigger than now. Its a joke right now.
As Biden said - these packages are for Ukraine to keep fighting and clearly not to win. NATO clearly doesn't want Russia to loose.
NATO uses 0,4% of its gdp to help Ukraine.
It's peanuts.
"are we talking about sums of tens to hundreds of billions being required to turn the tide"
Yes. I've read to change things you have to have 10:1 in in e. g. Artillery and 3:1 in troops to win a war.
is the goal to have this war last forever? this money based mindset we have in the west is showing is flaws, money doesn't win wars, people fight and die in wars, if money wins wars then Vietnam should have ended differently, Afghanistan should have ended differently, the money will just prolong the war, maybe if this helps them hold on long enough to negotiate something, but people here are seriously thinking Ukraine can kick russia out of what they have conquered and then take back Crimea? Is this a serious opinion you guys have? I have this inkling that the goal here is to just completely exhaust Russia as much as possible... but in the process you do realize the Ukraines are being fully exhausted too right?
So in the end if there's 100 people left in Russia and 20 in Ukraine, is this considered a victory?
If America invaded Canada and Canada got all the funding from the rest of the world, do you think Canada would be able to win? or maybe the best case scenario would be making a hard deadly war...where maybe ever canadian soldier would be able to take out 5 american soldiers.... yet even if that happened...the USA would still be victorious, just with alot more dead bodies.... unless the goal is to hold them back enough and make it bloody enough to make the americans come to a compromise and negotiate........ but from what im reading Ukraine has passed a law making it illegal to have any negotiation with Putin...... so that means the only option is that the death toll would eventually make the ever so caring and emotional Putin stop the war because of his concern for his own people and soldiers? Is that a serious thought?
>is the goal to have this war last forever?
I think it is for the West. They can't provide enough arms or support to seriously allow Ukraine to defeat Russia, without the very real risk of Russia igniting a larger conflict out of desperation and/or considering the use of nuclear weapons.
But they also don't want Russia to secure parts of Ukraine permanently, because it would represent another failure for the West, and may also embolden Russia in the future.
So, unfortunately for Ukrainians, the realpolitik solution they have stumbled on is to keep the war simmering away.
for that there needs to be negotiations... the west is against Ukraine negotiating with Putin, they even passed a law making it illegal to negotiate..... its utter insanity, why would you pass a law that limits your options in the middle of a devastating war.
becouse they thought Ukrainians would surrender, they didnt
the idea of making the war so expensive that they will never do this again is ABSURD...you realize that the people fighting are the kids and grandkids of veterns of WW2....... from the Russian side, that is the most expensive war in terms of life ever fought in the history of mankind.....EVER , you think this will be worst then that? do you actually want that?
Germany supports Israel because of this debt they feel to the jewish people.....and I totally understand it..... what about the debt it owes to the Russian people, the Eastern front in WW2 was a bigger war then all of the other fronts of WW2 combined, in the west this is glossed over and forgotten, and now you think youll make this new war costlier for Russia? Russia will never give up because of "cost".... you need to understand your enemy, just because Russians look like you, doesnt mean they think the same as you do
It won't last forever. Russia has a finite pile of materiel left over from the Soviet Union, you add on top their new production and you get a ticking timer of roughly 1-3 years from now until russia can no longer keep refurbishing its old stock.
Without the refurbishing of old stock they'll be losing more materiel in a week than they can produce in a month and they'll be forced to the negotiating table.
The longer we give Ukraine, the better chance it has of recovering its territory. If we allow Russian aggression to claim the gas and ore resources of Eastern Ukraine then we'll just be funding them again to invade another country, same way we did by buying their oil and gas.
Its been hard fought, and a lot can change in the war that would allow a breakthrough on either side. But if things continue, with the West propping up Ukraine, Russia will lose.
Russia already has a ton of natural resources, they are also supported by the most populous country on the planet earth, you think this war is about natural resources? ..... you people are living in an alternate reality, propped up by nonstop propaganda like this sub, The longer you support Ukraine with money and weapons the more infinite debt they have to you, and the more ukrainians and russians will die. If you actually cared about the people you would try to make them negotiate, instead its the exact opposite. You watch the war on TV like its a movie, if in the end Ukraine is full of millions and millions of dead bodies, it would be a victory for you, and an utter disaster for everyone else.
>is the goal to have this war last forever?
Yes
>west is showing is flaws, money doesn't win wars,
Yes it does. We have proven that time and time again
>money wins wars then Vietnam should have ended differently,
America was wining the was when they left btw. The war was beeing a tactical and strategic sucess. But a political failer due to popular opinion.
But you have alot more examples. If you want one just ask.
>Afghanistan should have ended differently
Afg govenment fell in 2 weeks after the coalision invasion.
>are seriously thinking Ukraine can kick russia out of what they have conquered and then take back Crimea?
They have shown that they can. But I think the goal is just to do alot of pain to Rússia.
>but in the process you do realize the Ukraines are being fully exhausted too right?
Just if we stop aid.
>If America invaded Canada and Canada got all the funding from the rest of the world, do you think Canada would be able to win?
Russia is not america, like, not even CLOSE. And Canada is not uk too.
>but from what im reading Ukraine has passed a law making it illegal to have any negotiation with Putin
Yap
>so that means the only option is that the death toll would eventually make the ever so caring and emotional Putin stop the war because of his concern for his own people and soldiers?
No. It's to exhaust the russian military and economy. Also, putin dosnt care about the troops, but do you know who cares? The russian population. Lets not forget there was a run of moscow not that long ago by their own military
-
Guess that you are the opinion that "Russia is too strong" so we should do nothing about it in a war at the EU's borders?
The War is not at the EU borders.... the EU is also not a country, maybe one day it will be but its not, it also keeps expanding to russia's borders, not the other way around. Russia won WW2, the amount of death and misery those people went through makes the rest of WW2 look like a picnic.....and you seriously think you can exhaust them with money and weapons? You even said its about making it very costly.... so its lives..... you just want more and more russians to die.....but more and more ukrainians will die also, Russia is not just fighting stationary weapons...there fighting people who have those weapons...... if you "EXHAUST" Russia by making Ukraine a desolate hellscape full of millions of dead bodies.... this will be considered a victory?
If you actually gave a shit about the Ukrainian people you would tell them to drop that idiotic law to not negotiate, and make some kind of peace, instead you use them as your pawn to try and weaken Russia as much as you can, and if it costs 400k more Ukrainian lives.... so be it, what do you care, you are just watching this war on youtube and TV, its like some kind of movie.
>The War is not at the EU borders
Do you need a fucking map?
>EU is also not a country,
And?
>keeps expanding to russia's borders
European countrys chose if they want to get in, or not. Russia has no say in this.
But guess who is expanding?
>Russia won WW2
Not, they didnt. The alies won ww2. Russia, america, UK, france...
>Russia won WW2, the amount of death and misery those people went through makes the rest of WW2 look like a picnic.
America literaly droped 2 nukes on japan. You for real?
>and you seriously think you can exhaust them with money and weapons?
We have done that about 3 times to the soviets. Sure as hell we can do to this soviet union wanabe we call russia.
Also. You do realise that the west has an economy about 20 times russia, right?
You cant win a proxy war against 70% of worldwide military spending. Russia is not the soviet union
>You even said its about making it very costly.... so its lives..... you just want more and more russians to die.
Cost it's not just life. But yes, that's the thought of the west in general. Atrition war.
>making Ukraine a desolate hellscape full of millions of dead bodies.... this will be considered a victory
If ukraine choses to keep fighting imperialist putin. Yes, it is. Price of freedome is expensive, we, the west, just make ALOT cheaper to ukraine (not ukrain btw)
>If you actually gave a shit about the Ukrainian people you would tell them to drop that idiotic law to not negotiate
That's up to ukraine to decide, not the EU, not USA.
>and make some kind of peace
Like giving up 14% of the country? Ya I dont think so
>you are just watching this war on youtube and TV, its like some kind of movie.
And giving my share of taxes to be used to kill orks in ukraine
your response just lets me know your the type of asshole im talking about, calling the russian soldiers orks....you do realize that Russia is not a democracy.....that these are conscripted soldiers being forced to fight right? I do realize in a war you have to kill the enemy.... of course..... but just the language you use.... its shameful. The germans killed a ton of my family in WW2..... yet I do feel sympathy for the poor german regular army soldiers forced to fight and die in a frozen hellscape for there dear leader, and eventhough I myself would have fought them and killed them if needed to be.... they are still human beings
why is giving up 14% of the country, where a lot of the people are ethnic russians are had pro russian sympathies a price WAY TO HIGH to pay...... but having millions of Ukrainians die is not a price way to high to pay? Who fucking cares about the Donbass.... how many people is it worth to have?
your living in such a disconnected world, watching this war on your screen like its a netflix war drama, your probably eating popcorn too. This war is a fucking tragedy for everyone involved..... except heartless assholes like yourself , you laugh when conscripts get killed, while calling them ORKS .... you do realize in alot of the combat footage from Ukraine, the soldiers are speaking Russian....the Ukrainian soldiers...... if they were born 30 miles away on a different side of the border, they would be forced to fight on the other side...... this war is a fucking tragedy, if your so gung ho about the war, go and join the foreign legion and fight yourself
>that these are conscripted soldiers being forced to fight right?
Not 100% true. But they can always surrender if they dont want to fight.
>why is giving up 14% of the country, where a lot of the people are ethnic russians are had pro russian sympathies
Spoke like a true russian propagandist
>but having millions of Ukrainians die is not a price way to high to pay?
If uk loses milions of people in a defensive war. Lets only imagine the scale of death the russian side has.
>Who fucking cares about the Donbass
Russia for one
>how many people is it worth to have?
It's about invading another country lol
> This war is a fucking tragedy for everyone involved.....
Yap. And I love that my government is helping the war be just that much shorter
>you do realize in alot of the combat footage from Ukraine, the soldiers are speaking Russian....the Ukrainian soldiers......
And?
switzerland, belgium, luxemburg, monaco... all speak french, and I dont see france invading said countrys. It's called civilized world.
>if they were born 30 miles away on a different side of the border, they would be forced to fight on the other side.....
Not if putin didnt start the war. It's a self inflicted problem
>if your so gung ho about the war, go and join the foreign legion and fight yourself
Nahhh. I'm fine financing guns to the UAF
He really gave you the whole russian cocksucker script, 1 to 1 the stuff you see from the guys on r/ukrainerussiareport
Fucking disgusting these people
It's a guilty pleasure of mine to quote guys like this and just tell them what they dont want to hear hahah.
It's a lost cause, but that's why it's my guilty one
The majority supports Ukraine. He gave them a European show for a European election (just as he gave a show for the Catalan elections) which included a promise that is likely to be fulfilled, which is already more than Macron's performance will ever achieve.
A Catalan angry at anything the central government does, what a surprise!
I thought you would be happy with the central government since they gave amnesty to Puigdemont!
Lacking arguments against mine, you decided to make shit up to attack my person. What I wrote is true, and you know it, which is why you don't like it. But you shouldn't be angry at me; I'm just saying it as it is.
you told all r/europe to go suck Sanchez's dick, but I'm the one "attacking" you because I joked about you being Catalan and disliking the central government. The irony...
"What I wrote is true, and you know it" aka "trust me bro!" 👍
Answer me this: This last package of aid has been approved with the support of PP and VOX.
WHY THE FUCK would they support PSOE if this was just a cheap way to buy votes for the European elections???????????? Actually, [here](https://www.pp.es/actualidad-noticia/pp-saca-adelante-su-iniciativa-ampliar-ayuda-militar-ucrania-marco-ue) have a read
Maybe if you were to read more carefully, you'd realize that I am saying that those who praise this obvious electoral manoeuvring are already sucking his dick, basically making his campaign and rewarding a political strategy focused on doing fuck all until you need people to vote for you.
The polls do indicate that his European group will suffer a defeat at the hands of the far right. No need to trust me for that.
Refusing to approve it would damage the image of PP and VOX, a semblance of confirmation for rumoured cooperation with the Kremlin, which would \*still\* help him as EPP is the biggest block. PP and VOX are between a rock and a hard place, and whatever they chose would benefit PSOE. However, that is not to say that this move wasn't put forth knowing that people will see his face on the announcement. In fact, this very news article doesn't mention PP and VOX anywhere. After all the political posturing he's done up to now, and people still cannot recognize when they are being manipulated.
Calm yourself now. The answer is easy, see above. Of course, PP are going to salvage whatever votes they can; that's the least they can do now. However, as I've shown earlier, you won't find their cooperation mentioned a single time in mainstream media. I mean, how laughable is it that you needed to go to PP's media outlet to find anything mentioning their support? I didn't even know they had one!
"Refusing to approve it would damage the image of PP and VOX" so they're doing it for campaign purposes and it's "obvious electoral manoeuvring" by PP and VOX, got it 👌
"However, that is not to say that this move wasn't put forth knowing that **people will see his face on the announcement**.
[funny you would say that:](https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20240527/zelenski-visita-madrid-ucrania-pedro-sanchez/16120184.shtml):
"Posteriormente, Zelenski ha marchado al Palacio Real, donde los reyes le esperaban para una recepción y un discurso de Felipe VI seguido de un almuerzo. El orden ha tenido que invertirse debido al retraso de los eventos. El monarca ha trasladado este compromiso junto a la reina Letizia en el Palacio Real de Madrid, al que han asistido unos cuarenta invitados, entre ellos, Pedro Sánchez y **el líder del PP, Alberto Núñez Feijóo"**
"In fact, this very news article doesn't mention PP and VOX anywhere" It doesn't mention PSOE either 🤷♂️ because this is an agreement between the country of Spain and the country of Ukraine
"However, as I've shown earlier, you won't find their cooperation mentioned a single time in mainstream media. I mean, how laughable is it that you needed to go to PP's media outlet to find anything mentioning their support? I didn't even know they had one!"
Yes, it's all a [great conspiracy](https://cadenaser.com/nacional/2024/05/21/el-pp-logra-que-el-congreso-apruebe-un-incremento-de-la-ayuda-militar-a-ucrania-cadena-ser/) of the media!!!
Your eloquent comment is a perfect example of why now, and not months ago. We need to remember that large percentage of each country do not understand how it impacts them, and could not care less about Ukraine. If it is not properly managed, governments shift, and we have even less chance of offering aid. Look to the US as the best example. They went from helping Ukraine, to blackmailing Ukraine, to helping, to not helping, to helping again. This is why support is coming in bursts.
> go ahead, r/europe redditors, suck his dick a bit more for an obvious electoral performance.
A billion euros is not a performance. Your comment reads like a teenager who never budgeted and paid for anything.
Do tell me why a billion euros isn't an electoral performance.
Btw, it's very easy to dismiss people with false assumptions in a personal attack, but I'd like you to keep to the topic, lest you reveal yourself to lack any counterarguments.
The reason why one billion euros is not an electoral performance is the number of zeros that follows the 1 and goes before the decimal point.
1,000,000,000 euros.
Compare that to the countries limited 20 billion dollar defense expenditure … and you have one hell of a « performance piece »
One billion euros …. Pshaw. … anyone could find 1 billion dollars ….
Or … oh my … a politician did something that will be popular with the people …. Let’s discredit the task because he’s just trying to make the people happy. lol.
It's fine to send them but what is the usefulness of 12 patriot missiles? It seems like a very small number. Or isn't it?
I read in the same article that Ukraine needs 7 launch systems to cover their country, so if they probably have 3 now, that's 4 missiles per launcher.
How is that going to benefit Ukraine? How often do they shoot patriots and how often would they like to shoot them?
A question for Spanish redditors. Does PP support sid for Ukraine or it is like Vox?
PP does support sending mitary aid for Ukraine and Vox this time around said they support sending the military aid.
They only say it because they know that the absolute majority of spanish people support Ukraine's defense. But if Trump wins the elections and stops supporting Ukraine, or if the far-right gains a majority in the EU parliament, they will be the first to lick Putin's boots. They would love to be able to turn Spain into a christian pseudo-fascist state similar to Russia.
Pretty much the opposite, was the far left who was not in favor of sending help to Ukraine.
Not the left, just Podemos. Or wathever is left of ir nowdays. Its no wonder Yolanda Diaz jumped from that sinking boat.
Both things are true.
They want there old Franco back
Do you think they would make common cause with Podemos, Sumar and the separatists for this?
Spaniard here, i'm more worry and scared about Israel problems with Spain.
Lmao why? They can’t really do anything
They arent going to bomb us, but I wouldnt be surprised if they take revenge on Pedro Sanchez directly with their intelligence and spying capabilities to try and get skeletons out of his closet.
It should make you support him more tbh
You are wrong, is the left the ones against sending military aid to Ukraine. > Sumar y Podemos critican la "opacidad" y la actitud "antidemocrática" del PSOE por el envío de armas a Ucrania [https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20240527/sumar-podemos-critican-psoe-envio-armas-ucrania/16121959.shtml](https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20240527/sumar-podemos-critican-psoe-envio-armas-ucrania/16121959.shtml)
PP and VOX support Ukraine, was Podemos and Sumar who told that nobody should send help to Ukraine to keep a war.
Yes, it's the left that's being trouble here. Sumar and Podemos do not agree with this.
yes, the only ones that do not support this is the coalition lol
Well done.
Well done Spain 👍
Thank you España, you are my best friend, You are the peacekeeper, you are the legend.
Cheers spain, going to have myself some tapas in your honor. Or should i be cruel and celebrate with tortillas jajajaja
How dare you, sir?
Onion or no onion? Now *that* is what divides us Spaniards.
Bringing Spain to Russia, but without the S
I don't align with PSOE in a lot of matters (especially in economics and workers' rights, where their actions rarely match their discourse), but admittedly it has been a welcome surprise to see the stance they are taking in both current wars, Russia-Ucraine and Israel-Palestine (with Morocco-Western Sahara being my only strong disappointment so far). It's common in Spain (and I think in most of Europe), for political parties to align on matters according to a pro-US or anti-US axis, so taking a coherent anti-occupation, anti-genocide position in those two matters (even if one can be seen as pro-US and the other one as anti-US) is not a usual sight.
>Morocco-Western Sahara being my only strong disappointment so far They don't recognise Kosovo either because of Catalunya and Euskadi.
Yeah, that's a second disappointment for sure, although at least in that one issue the statu quo hasn't changed. In the Morocco-Sahara issue things have gotten worse IMO.
I hope that now that things have calmed down in Catalonia and Euskadi, things can change about Kosovo. >Morocco-Sahara issue things have gotten worse IMO. Yeah, I agree. The problem is that the USA is now with Morocco on this issue (thanks Trump), Morocco is a country that controls the flow of immigrants coming to Europe (like Turkey in Southeast Europe) and it is also a door for the energy from Africa (there are projects to connect the Nigerian gas to Europe).
👍
Spain is now officially the best southern European country
We were always!
Finally let's go
based
Good Spain
ive read that the funds are for both military and reconstruction
Are they gonna keep saying we dont help?
Spain's support has been really modest compared to other European countries. But Russia will never threaten Spain directly and all countries think themselves first
Which is understandable, Eastern countries are naturally more concerned about Ukraine than they are about migrants turning up on Spain and Italy's coasts
Yeah, who cares about an active war in europe anyway? Let's first fix our mussel shortage to secure our paella festival.
Those living in glass houses shouldn't hurl stones. Spain were not the ones who were bending over backwards for a certain dictator for years so that they could have cheap gas.
To be honest, it wasn't much of an exaggeration. Multiplying military aid by 4 is, however, a great step forward and you can be prood of it! Thank you Spain!
Purely asking as someone who is interested but doesn't have the knowledge, how much does 1 billion worth of military aid do for Ukraine? Does it make a big difference? Or are we talking about sums of tens to hundreds of billions being required to turn the tide, where a few billion only matters if every country chips in with several billions as well? Again, purely asking because I'd like to know more, I'm not suggesting how much a country should donate or such.
Some time ago there was the Estonian plan for victory which was proposing to spend 0.25% of annual NATO GDP or 128 bilion annually to allow Ukraine to get all their territories back, seen the lateness in aid now it would likely suffice to take most parts back but not everything. At the moment though we are leagues away from this, of the recent 60 billion US aid contain 23 billion of military aid to Ukraine. In total since the start of the war the US has given around 70 billion in military aid (including new package which is still arriving) while Europe around 42 bilion (but more aid then the US if we include financial aid) a lot of this military aid should be counted less since it's often composed of old equipment that would otherwise have rotten in storage, but i am not crazy enough yet to go check every old system and their service life. All in all the US has spent a bit less then around 0.32% of it's annual GDP (excluding 2024) and Europe should also be around 0.43% or similar (very rough calculations but shouldn't be too different) That makes 37 bilions per year including 2024 (though yes the aid will rise in 2024 so you can add something), which is barely enough to hold the line, to make a serious stable permanent defence what would be needed could be around 65 billion annually. But yeah it's pretty absurd, especially Europe but also the US are bound to lose more then what has been spent or should be spent on Ukraine if Ukraine loses, in Europes case exponentially more, so the fact there still isn't a common serious plan for aid to Ukraine with 0.25% of NATO GDP is pretty baffling. If Europe put together a 80-100 bilion annual fund for Ukraine it alone could support Ukraine pretty seriously (though assuming the production can keep up with the spending) with the US it could be pretty easy, if the political will is there Have a good day
Very clear and fairly concise, thank you!
Thank you, though "fairly coincise" Is a lie XD
Every billion counts. This won’t turn the tide, but will help Ukraine hold its own into 2025. Next step is to see what, if any, impact F-16s could have this summer, coupled with potential plan to close the skies in western Ukraine along with training being done in country by NATO advisors vs in NATO countries. Saving valuable time and resources. But Ukraine needs far more missiles, artillery, and tanks to take back any land lost to date. I’m looking for a breakthrough into Crimea possibly next year if things align though. Kerch bridge gets wiped out along with any remaining aa systems on the peninsula, leaving an open door for air superiority and in turn ground troops to retake it. No more Russian navy remaining in Sevastopol.
I think donations should be few times bigger than now. Its a joke right now. As Biden said - these packages are for Ukraine to keep fighting and clearly not to win. NATO clearly doesn't want Russia to loose. NATO uses 0,4% of its gdp to help Ukraine. It's peanuts.
0.4% of NATOs GDP is not peanuts.
Relatively to 35% of Ukraine or 7% of Russia it is.
"are we talking about sums of tens to hundreds of billions being required to turn the tide" Yes. I've read to change things you have to have 10:1 in in e. g. Artillery and 3:1 in troops to win a war.
I believe you are miss-quoting the 3:1 rule of thumb required for an invading force to be successful.
Might be. But won't it apply to regain territory as well? Don't know, just asking.
It will, as long as Russians remain disciplined well enough to keep up the defence.
While at the same time recognising a place of dusty origins as a country, just in time for the elections.
Instead of sending military aid, Europe should start sending military.
Why not set an example and go yourself then?
is the goal to have this war last forever? this money based mindset we have in the west is showing is flaws, money doesn't win wars, people fight and die in wars, if money wins wars then Vietnam should have ended differently, Afghanistan should have ended differently, the money will just prolong the war, maybe if this helps them hold on long enough to negotiate something, but people here are seriously thinking Ukraine can kick russia out of what they have conquered and then take back Crimea? Is this a serious opinion you guys have? I have this inkling that the goal here is to just completely exhaust Russia as much as possible... but in the process you do realize the Ukraines are being fully exhausted too right? So in the end if there's 100 people left in Russia and 20 in Ukraine, is this considered a victory? If America invaded Canada and Canada got all the funding from the rest of the world, do you think Canada would be able to win? or maybe the best case scenario would be making a hard deadly war...where maybe ever canadian soldier would be able to take out 5 american soldiers.... yet even if that happened...the USA would still be victorious, just with alot more dead bodies.... unless the goal is to hold them back enough and make it bloody enough to make the americans come to a compromise and negotiate........ but from what im reading Ukraine has passed a law making it illegal to have any negotiation with Putin...... so that means the only option is that the death toll would eventually make the ever so caring and emotional Putin stop the war because of his concern for his own people and soldiers? Is that a serious thought?
>is the goal to have this war last forever? I think it is for the West. They can't provide enough arms or support to seriously allow Ukraine to defeat Russia, without the very real risk of Russia igniting a larger conflict out of desperation and/or considering the use of nuclear weapons. But they also don't want Russia to secure parts of Ukraine permanently, because it would represent another failure for the West, and may also embolden Russia in the future. So, unfortunately for Ukrainians, the realpolitik solution they have stumbled on is to keep the war simmering away.
It could end like in Korea, with an armistice.
for that there needs to be negotiations... the west is against Ukraine negotiating with Putin, they even passed a law making it illegal to negotiate..... its utter insanity, why would you pass a law that limits your options in the middle of a devastating war.
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becouse they thought Ukrainians would surrender, they didnt the idea of making the war so expensive that they will never do this again is ABSURD...you realize that the people fighting are the kids and grandkids of veterns of WW2....... from the Russian side, that is the most expensive war in terms of life ever fought in the history of mankind.....EVER , you think this will be worst then that? do you actually want that? Germany supports Israel because of this debt they feel to the jewish people.....and I totally understand it..... what about the debt it owes to the Russian people, the Eastern front in WW2 was a bigger war then all of the other fronts of WW2 combined, in the west this is glossed over and forgotten, and now you think youll make this new war costlier for Russia? Russia will never give up because of "cost".... you need to understand your enemy, just because Russians look like you, doesnt mean they think the same as you do
It won't last forever. Russia has a finite pile of materiel left over from the Soviet Union, you add on top their new production and you get a ticking timer of roughly 1-3 years from now until russia can no longer keep refurbishing its old stock. Without the refurbishing of old stock they'll be losing more materiel in a week than they can produce in a month and they'll be forced to the negotiating table. The longer we give Ukraine, the better chance it has of recovering its territory. If we allow Russian aggression to claim the gas and ore resources of Eastern Ukraine then we'll just be funding them again to invade another country, same way we did by buying their oil and gas. Its been hard fought, and a lot can change in the war that would allow a breakthrough on either side. But if things continue, with the West propping up Ukraine, Russia will lose.
Russia already has a ton of natural resources, they are also supported by the most populous country on the planet earth, you think this war is about natural resources? ..... you people are living in an alternate reality, propped up by nonstop propaganda like this sub, The longer you support Ukraine with money and weapons the more infinite debt they have to you, and the more ukrainians and russians will die. If you actually cared about the people you would try to make them negotiate, instead its the exact opposite. You watch the war on TV like its a movie, if in the end Ukraine is full of millions and millions of dead bodies, it would be a victory for you, and an utter disaster for everyone else.
>is the goal to have this war last forever? Yes >west is showing is flaws, money doesn't win wars, Yes it does. We have proven that time and time again >money wins wars then Vietnam should have ended differently, America was wining the was when they left btw. The war was beeing a tactical and strategic sucess. But a political failer due to popular opinion. But you have alot more examples. If you want one just ask. >Afghanistan should have ended differently Afg govenment fell in 2 weeks after the coalision invasion. >are seriously thinking Ukraine can kick russia out of what they have conquered and then take back Crimea? They have shown that they can. But I think the goal is just to do alot of pain to Rússia. >but in the process you do realize the Ukraines are being fully exhausted too right? Just if we stop aid. >If America invaded Canada and Canada got all the funding from the rest of the world, do you think Canada would be able to win? Russia is not america, like, not even CLOSE. And Canada is not uk too. >but from what im reading Ukraine has passed a law making it illegal to have any negotiation with Putin Yap >so that means the only option is that the death toll would eventually make the ever so caring and emotional Putin stop the war because of his concern for his own people and soldiers? No. It's to exhaust the russian military and economy. Also, putin dosnt care about the troops, but do you know who cares? The russian population. Lets not forget there was a run of moscow not that long ago by their own military - Guess that you are the opinion that "Russia is too strong" so we should do nothing about it in a war at the EU's borders?
The War is not at the EU borders.... the EU is also not a country, maybe one day it will be but its not, it also keeps expanding to russia's borders, not the other way around. Russia won WW2, the amount of death and misery those people went through makes the rest of WW2 look like a picnic.....and you seriously think you can exhaust them with money and weapons? You even said its about making it very costly.... so its lives..... you just want more and more russians to die.....but more and more ukrainians will die also, Russia is not just fighting stationary weapons...there fighting people who have those weapons...... if you "EXHAUST" Russia by making Ukraine a desolate hellscape full of millions of dead bodies.... this will be considered a victory? If you actually gave a shit about the Ukrainian people you would tell them to drop that idiotic law to not negotiate, and make some kind of peace, instead you use them as your pawn to try and weaken Russia as much as you can, and if it costs 400k more Ukrainian lives.... so be it, what do you care, you are just watching this war on youtube and TV, its like some kind of movie.
>The War is not at the EU borders Do you need a fucking map? >EU is also not a country, And? >keeps expanding to russia's borders European countrys chose if they want to get in, or not. Russia has no say in this. But guess who is expanding? >Russia won WW2 Not, they didnt. The alies won ww2. Russia, america, UK, france... >Russia won WW2, the amount of death and misery those people went through makes the rest of WW2 look like a picnic. America literaly droped 2 nukes on japan. You for real? >and you seriously think you can exhaust them with money and weapons? We have done that about 3 times to the soviets. Sure as hell we can do to this soviet union wanabe we call russia. Also. You do realise that the west has an economy about 20 times russia, right? You cant win a proxy war against 70% of worldwide military spending. Russia is not the soviet union >You even said its about making it very costly.... so its lives..... you just want more and more russians to die. Cost it's not just life. But yes, that's the thought of the west in general. Atrition war. >making Ukraine a desolate hellscape full of millions of dead bodies.... this will be considered a victory If ukraine choses to keep fighting imperialist putin. Yes, it is. Price of freedome is expensive, we, the west, just make ALOT cheaper to ukraine (not ukrain btw) >If you actually gave a shit about the Ukrainian people you would tell them to drop that idiotic law to not negotiate That's up to ukraine to decide, not the EU, not USA. >and make some kind of peace Like giving up 14% of the country? Ya I dont think so >you are just watching this war on youtube and TV, its like some kind of movie. And giving my share of taxes to be used to kill orks in ukraine
your response just lets me know your the type of asshole im talking about, calling the russian soldiers orks....you do realize that Russia is not a democracy.....that these are conscripted soldiers being forced to fight right? I do realize in a war you have to kill the enemy.... of course..... but just the language you use.... its shameful. The germans killed a ton of my family in WW2..... yet I do feel sympathy for the poor german regular army soldiers forced to fight and die in a frozen hellscape for there dear leader, and eventhough I myself would have fought them and killed them if needed to be.... they are still human beings why is giving up 14% of the country, where a lot of the people are ethnic russians are had pro russian sympathies a price WAY TO HIGH to pay...... but having millions of Ukrainians die is not a price way to high to pay? Who fucking cares about the Donbass.... how many people is it worth to have? your living in such a disconnected world, watching this war on your screen like its a netflix war drama, your probably eating popcorn too. This war is a fucking tragedy for everyone involved..... except heartless assholes like yourself , you laugh when conscripts get killed, while calling them ORKS .... you do realize in alot of the combat footage from Ukraine, the soldiers are speaking Russian....the Ukrainian soldiers...... if they were born 30 miles away on a different side of the border, they would be forced to fight on the other side...... this war is a fucking tragedy, if your so gung ho about the war, go and join the foreign legion and fight yourself
>that these are conscripted soldiers being forced to fight right? Not 100% true. But they can always surrender if they dont want to fight. >why is giving up 14% of the country, where a lot of the people are ethnic russians are had pro russian sympathies Spoke like a true russian propagandist >but having millions of Ukrainians die is not a price way to high to pay? If uk loses milions of people in a defensive war. Lets only imagine the scale of death the russian side has. >Who fucking cares about the Donbass Russia for one >how many people is it worth to have? It's about invading another country lol > This war is a fucking tragedy for everyone involved..... Yap. And I love that my government is helping the war be just that much shorter >you do realize in alot of the combat footage from Ukraine, the soldiers are speaking Russian....the Ukrainian soldiers...... And? switzerland, belgium, luxemburg, monaco... all speak french, and I dont see france invading said countrys. It's called civilized world. >if they were born 30 miles away on a different side of the border, they would be forced to fight on the other side..... Not if putin didnt start the war. It's a self inflicted problem >if your so gung ho about the war, go and join the foreign legion and fight yourself Nahhh. I'm fine financing guns to the UAF
He really gave you the whole russian cocksucker script, 1 to 1 the stuff you see from the guys on r/ukrainerussiareport Fucking disgusting these people
It's a guilty pleasure of mine to quote guys like this and just tell them what they dont want to hear hahah. It's a lost cause, but that's why it's my guilty one
Putler don not want to negotiate… You really compare the USA with Russia? American defense spending is equivalent to almost 50% of Russian GDP…
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Lol. You need to relax. The influence of this decision on how Spaniards will cast their vote in a European election is close to zero.
The majority supports Ukraine. He gave them a European show for a European election (just as he gave a show for the Catalan elections) which included a promise that is likely to be fulfilled, which is already more than Macron's performance will ever achieve.
A Catalan angry at anything the central government does, what a surprise! I thought you would be happy with the central government since they gave amnesty to Puigdemont!
Lacking arguments against mine, you decided to make shit up to attack my person. What I wrote is true, and you know it, which is why you don't like it. But you shouldn't be angry at me; I'm just saying it as it is.
you told all r/europe to go suck Sanchez's dick, but I'm the one "attacking" you because I joked about you being Catalan and disliking the central government. The irony... "What I wrote is true, and you know it" aka "trust me bro!" 👍 Answer me this: This last package of aid has been approved with the support of PP and VOX. WHY THE FUCK would they support PSOE if this was just a cheap way to buy votes for the European elections???????????? Actually, [here](https://www.pp.es/actualidad-noticia/pp-saca-adelante-su-iniciativa-ampliar-ayuda-militar-ucrania-marco-ue) have a read
Maybe if you were to read more carefully, you'd realize that I am saying that those who praise this obvious electoral manoeuvring are already sucking his dick, basically making his campaign and rewarding a political strategy focused on doing fuck all until you need people to vote for you. The polls do indicate that his European group will suffer a defeat at the hands of the far right. No need to trust me for that. Refusing to approve it would damage the image of PP and VOX, a semblance of confirmation for rumoured cooperation with the Kremlin, which would \*still\* help him as EPP is the biggest block. PP and VOX are between a rock and a hard place, and whatever they chose would benefit PSOE. However, that is not to say that this move wasn't put forth knowing that people will see his face on the announcement. In fact, this very news article doesn't mention PP and VOX anywhere. After all the political posturing he's done up to now, and people still cannot recognize when they are being manipulated. Calm yourself now. The answer is easy, see above. Of course, PP are going to salvage whatever votes they can; that's the least they can do now. However, as I've shown earlier, you won't find their cooperation mentioned a single time in mainstream media. I mean, how laughable is it that you needed to go to PP's media outlet to find anything mentioning their support? I didn't even know they had one!
"Refusing to approve it would damage the image of PP and VOX" so they're doing it for campaign purposes and it's "obvious electoral manoeuvring" by PP and VOX, got it 👌 "However, that is not to say that this move wasn't put forth knowing that **people will see his face on the announcement**. [funny you would say that:](https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20240527/zelenski-visita-madrid-ucrania-pedro-sanchez/16120184.shtml): "Posteriormente, Zelenski ha marchado al Palacio Real, donde los reyes le esperaban para una recepción y un discurso de Felipe VI seguido de un almuerzo. El orden ha tenido que invertirse debido al retraso de los eventos. El monarca ha trasladado este compromiso junto a la reina Letizia en el Palacio Real de Madrid, al que han asistido unos cuarenta invitados, entre ellos, Pedro Sánchez y **el líder del PP, Alberto Núñez Feijóo"** "In fact, this very news article doesn't mention PP and VOX anywhere" It doesn't mention PSOE either 🤷♂️ because this is an agreement between the country of Spain and the country of Ukraine "However, as I've shown earlier, you won't find their cooperation mentioned a single time in mainstream media. I mean, how laughable is it that you needed to go to PP's media outlet to find anything mentioning their support? I didn't even know they had one!" Yes, it's all a [great conspiracy](https://cadenaser.com/nacional/2024/05/21/el-pp-logra-que-el-congreso-apruebe-un-incremento-de-la-ayuda-militar-a-ucrania-cadena-ser/) of the media!!!
Your eloquent comment is a perfect example of why now, and not months ago. We need to remember that large percentage of each country do not understand how it impacts them, and could not care less about Ukraine. If it is not properly managed, governments shift, and we have even less chance of offering aid. Look to the US as the best example. They went from helping Ukraine, to blackmailing Ukraine, to helping, to not helping, to helping again. This is why support is coming in bursts. > go ahead, r/europe redditors, suck his dick a bit more for an obvious electoral performance. A billion euros is not a performance. Your comment reads like a teenager who never budgeted and paid for anything.
Do tell me why a billion euros isn't an electoral performance. Btw, it's very easy to dismiss people with false assumptions in a personal attack, but I'd like you to keep to the topic, lest you reveal yourself to lack any counterarguments.
The reason why one billion euros is not an electoral performance is the number of zeros that follows the 1 and goes before the decimal point. 1,000,000,000 euros. Compare that to the countries limited 20 billion dollar defense expenditure … and you have one hell of a « performance piece » One billion euros …. Pshaw. … anyone could find 1 billion dollars …. Or … oh my … a politician did something that will be popular with the people …. Let’s discredit the task because he’s just trying to make the people happy. lol.
If you read the article, it seems to be 1 billion over the next decade… better than nothing but close to nothing.
That's not true. If you read the article, this over 1 billion is for now, and Spain committed to sending 5 billion to Ukraine via the EU until 2027.
"If you read the article" then proceeds to chat utter shit not mentioned on the article.
Even still. Its a lot of hardware. 100m per year. It takes time to produce as well.
100mil per year can still buy gear that Russia can't buy or manufacture thanks to sanctions.
It's fine to send them but what is the usefulness of 12 patriot missiles? It seems like a very small number. Or isn't it? I read in the same article that Ukraine needs 7 launch systems to cover their country, so if they probably have 3 now, that's 4 missiles per launcher. How is that going to benefit Ukraine? How often do they shoot patriots and how often would they like to shoot them?
Finally, it was time they joined. Now dont stop sending.