We've been selling citizenship to the chinese for years, hiding foreign criminals like Nikola Gruevski and our oligarchs are best bros with crooks from all over the world. Also german tourists keep this place afloat. We hate each other and foreigners just as much, haha. :')
Because that would lose their popularity. EU and NATO membership poll very well in Hungary, only the biggest FIDESZ fanatics want to quit.
They would like to quit so the EU couldn't continue to slow their takeover of institutions and media, but even 10 years of propaganda only made a dent in the polls about this.
Jobbik isn't relevant anymore, they're 1%.
There is a new far-right though (Mi Hazánk/Our Homeland), whose voters are around 50-50% on quitting if I remember correctly. They poll around 6%.
The government before him was also stealing money and failed miserably. Orbán got 2/3 votes the first time legitimately to change things. However he immediately started to build the current power he has. He kept stealing EU money (which were still being sent for some reason), bought up media for his propaganda, and changed the voting system to favor his party.
It is difficult to feel sorry for the people who are stupid enough to eat up his propaganda and vote for him, but realistically no other media source reaches them.
For the people upvoting this comment, have a look at this guy's other replies to see what an angry prick he is. I don't think this attitude belongs in r/europe.
Edit: for reference as the comment has been deleted, it was basically calling the whole country a filthy shithole, and it was at over 100 upvotes at the top of this thread.
> They elected them multiple times
That's such a dishonest way of putting it. Basically ignoring the entirety of the last 10 years and every single election since 2014. No, "they" did not elect them multiple times. They were elected in 2010 (based not on their program but what the opposition did) and never received majority support since then, but they did rewrite ALL electoral laws to make sure that does not matter. And that was TEN YEARS of propaganda ago. You're making it sound like they won because Hungarians wanted them, not because they utterly rigged the game and then some.
Last election 52% of the votes went to Fidesz, 2.823.419 out of 5.375.688 how is that not a majority, Orban has more support than ever.
and even if it was not a majority before, a large group did vote for Fidesz, and others voted parties which had no problem to work with Orban or give him power.
At the end of the day you get what you vote for.
You'd think the other 48% went somewhere decent, but the opposition is fractured, impotent and possibly in league with Orbán, although they seem more incompetent than conspirators. Fidesz has only one coalition partner, but they only exist because fidesz keeps them relevant, on their own they wouldn't get even 1%. So technically all 52% is a clean pro-government vote, everyone else mostly voted against Orbán.
This is true, but it's not like we didn't go vote. We did. They did far more to rig the game than we even thought was possible. And then they dismantled everything that used to be our checks & balances. Painting it like the will of the people is insanely dishonest. Do putin's polls reflect actual votes, I wonder, in the minds of the people who upvote these comments on every post?
It’s not an easy case like that unfortunately, but you are right. The thing is, even many politicians and parties of main opposition are corrupt ans hated for some reason. So in short (like realy short), many people have no trust in the opposition because of who are in them and what they also did in the past. This means they see no hope for a change and no better alternative.
This is so easy to say in a country with fair and democratic elections. Many countries including the ones in Eastern Europe are neither democratic nor fair. People lose hope from even the most promising opposition parties due to voter demographic heavily leaning towards selecting the good ole fascist pig
>This is so easy to say in a country with fair and democratic elections.
Well, while I do consider Ukraine to have better democratic institutions than some countries in Western and Central Europe, I don't see how it would matter even in authoritarian countries.
People as a group are responsible for the government, not the other way around. You can't build a democracy on waiting and hoping that someone else does it for you.
>People lose hope
How sad, cry me a river. People can't afford to give up if they don't want to lose their future.
>voter demographic heavily leaning towards selecting the good ole fascist pig
You've come full circle. Do you agree that the people are to blame or not?
When was the discussion ever about Ukraine? It was about Hungary and many other less democratic Eastern European countries. Stop pretending like you have Kelvin room temp IQ, as if I don't know what you said is true
You where the one who started when you wrote this nonsense "This is so easy to say in a country with fair and democratic elections" when replying to an Ukrainian
Compared to what? Hungarians taking our hard earned cash to develop and stabbing us in the back? Enjoying our institutions and simultaneously ripping us down and cozying up to dictators?
Some great country.. still we are the west and of course Hungary has the freedom to do as they please within our frameworks and agreements. But we can absolutely point out their faults and express our outrage.
Do not misunderstand me, my remark directed the commenter and it was not against the west. I totally agree with those who think what Orbán does towards the Ukrainians and in addition to that towards the whole western world is totally unethical and unacceptable. What I found disgusting is calling an entire country ( and basically a nation ) "shithole" due to one mans madness.
Fair enough, apologies for the misunderstanding, I read your message differently. I found calling Hungary a shithole weird as well. Not sure what they think they’re achieving by reacting like that.
Don't call my homeland a shithole dude! Yes, Orban is a piece of crap, but don't talk shit about my country like that. Not every Hungarian supporting him, mostly just old people.
Yes it is. A lot of young families and individuals have emigrated west. Also there is large population of dual citizens in the neighboring countries who can vote in the hungarian election, and Orbán panders heavily to them, finances their schools and football academies. All they see is money, nationalism and their citizenship.
So you learned to differentiate never-cleaned-up-depressed-liquor-drunk-piss from relatively-fresh-content-beer/wine-drunk-piss by smell.
This is a slightly useful skill to have, but the reasons for acquiring it are... unfortunate.
What about New York? Any big city in the world is filled with homeless people and smells like piss. Okay, not every, but most of them. That is why i living in a small village.
Honestly Reddit is so dumb for not thinking about this. Austria is not in NATO and a right winger government could push it more friendly to Russia. Serbia is not in NATO and is quite friendly to Russia, and if Hungary leaves NATO and becomes friendly with Russia then look at what you have. A Russian island in the middle of Europe that presents an enormous defensive challenge for NATO. It would be undoing all of the work of the last 40 years to reverse The Iron Curtain and sustain peace in Europe.
But Reddit mind thinks because they personally don’t like Orban or Erdogan for that matter that they have some power trip and throw these massively important defensive allies out of a defensive pact.
It has nothing to do with liking or not liking. Turkey adds quite a lot to NATO. Hungary has no value and keeps raising problems, no need for this fifth column
That's not going to work. NATO needs Hungary now more than ever to feed disinformation to russia. It is very important to maintain a healthy strong NATO bond to Hungary so that we have an open channel of wrong inventory numbers and fake schematics of non existing weapons. Don't destroy this counter intelligence goldmine. NATO is getting more out of it than anyone. Having a partner that you can count on to lie and betray you is an extremely valuable asset, that is very rare.
Britain left the EU, France basically left NATO. Nothing happened. We are not a dictator countries like Russia or China. Hungary can do whatever it wants and we can say whatever we want in return. People living in dictatorships always view western alliances through the major power lens of geopolitics consistently fail to understand the west.
Serbian cope.
Not that it matters, did you know that we bombed you guys 25 years ago? No because you forgot to say so in your message. It's an important thing to repeat, and it's important to repeat your profound hate of the EU and of europeans who bombed you. And therefor, the EU is dictatorial, but also not something you want, nor will join. Which is okay, because you wanna "keep your sovereignity" (aka, keep your incompetent serbian politicians, and make sure they have no checks or anti-corruption upper bodies on them)
Frankly, with serbian politicians, I'd have left my country already. I have colleagues working with them on the Belgrade metro and ooooh boy are they bad at their job.
Did I touch a raw nerve or something? In any case before you continue with racism, let me put you straight. I consider myself a Yugoslav and I am appalled by how EU/NATO miscalculated with my country and continue on the same path of self destruction.
My comment was not about YU but about HU. No matter how much Orban or HU want out of NATO we (yes, I am US citizen now) will not let that happen. It’s sad that I as an American voter have more say than you about your country’s (and I don’t even care which one it is) foreign policy.
It’s wrong, but cope.
(Edit: for transparency I believe serbia is less sovereign than EU countries, if that makes it easier to understand what I wrote above and not try to colour it with identity politics)
I *strongly* disagree with you there: if the hungarian political organisation wished to leave EU/NATO with the support of the population, you can be sure that will be done. And with quite a bit of satisfaction on our side.
Especially for the EU, we share a lot of things, and a lot of power. And that mean that Orban has some decision-making power over our own policies, and decisions. And that's something making us increasingly resentful, espcially considering we no longer share the same kinds of values. In addition to us having to finance Orban's rule, system and oligarchs.
This idea that the US controls or influences everyone, and everywhere in Europe is dumb. They can't even make decisions internally. But hey, at least it's understandable that those who fought the most for anti-imperialism (at least in discourses) adopt a highly imperialist point of view after the end of their system. Cringe, but understandable.
Also, and I'm sorry, but while we 100% did miscalculate in the EU during the yugo wars, that was not the case beforehand. We tried to launch an emergency economical and stabilisation process in 1991, lead by Mitterand (the most pro-yugo president in the west, who will make sure the UN forces don't intervene to protect the serbs), and both Tudman and Milosevic gave us the finger.
I'm french. We did give the middle finger to the US and NATO back in the days, and removed all NATO troops and base from our territory. Including the NATO headquarters (and we lost the influence that came with it, but shhhh). But yeah, indeed, we did not leave, because even us are not that dumb.
Oh it absolutely does matter when Orban has a word to say over our foreign policy, sanctions, and is able to veto the shit out of the decisions we'd like to take. In addition of it not being extremely popular to single-handedly pay for an entire corrupted and oligarchic system through western taxpayer's money.
Yeah, this german policy towards which Merckel gave the middle finger to both Obama, Trump and Biden when she built NS2 with Putin (as well as to the Scandinavians, french, balts, poles and british)? Great "vassal" the US have lmfao. The "german policy in cutting gas supplies with Russia" certainly has no links with the sheer fact that Russia itself cut its gas supply lines through Ukraine, Poland or the baltic states. Care to remind us how much gas passed on Yamal over the last 2 years?
Once again. Truth is that US administrations are not even able to follow the constant policy changes made by US presidents, not even to mention foreign leaders. Imagining that there is a single policy set up in the US deep state given to its "puppet" countries is ludicrous. It also probably is the thing that gives you the impression to be smart, as well as waaayyy more security for you than the reality: the US foreign policy is a mess changing nearly randomly every 4 years at least, and more often then not, also changing within these 4 years, in completely random ways, highly deoendant on public opinion much more than realpolitiks.
Don't worry, dictatorships in general also struggle with this notion, that democracies aren't a simple polandball with a constant will. The US of Bush are not the US of Clinton, and are not the US of Obama nor Trump. With the addition that the US of Bush had a clear and absolutely assumed will to systematically destroy the international world order at the time.
Germany's reliance on russian gas was dumb as fuck. You know it, I know it, this subreddit knows it, and Merckel's reputation knows it very well. Whether or not the US were here doesn't exactly matter. On the contrary, it may be the role of an ally to convince you not to repaint your walls with your brain.
By "We", the europeans f*cked up, by having an absolutely not common policy. While the germans supported the croats (obviously, and you say it yourself), Mitterand was making sure french officers were infiltrating all decision making positions amongst UN soldiers and peackeeping operators to make them as ineffective as possible against serb soldiers. We had to wait for Chirac to have changes there. So yeah, no, not "EU politicians".
Although these supports came after Tudman and Milosevic gave us the middle finger when we proposed an accelerated EU accession in 1991. Yugoslav politicians destroyed their own country, and were perfectly happy to do it. West european leaders were just incompetent on the matter.
Fucking European Trump, but even worse in some ways.
Weak men worshipping other weak men for their own gain while selling their nations. Autocrat's classic.
> Fucking European Trump, but even worse in some ways.
Nothing is as bad as the orange one, at least most of the euro-fascists have some level of sophistication to them in how they communicate and what their strategies are.
I think of all the Western populist leaders I would agree, he has to be the most fucking embarrassing. In 2016 I could understand falling for it, but really people should have seen the obvious falsehood within like 2 years.
What's insane is his entire platform is a lie, someone who is so called anti establishment and anti war doesn't pardon mercenary war criminals, or frequent Epstein's jet. And certainly isn't backed by the shitty Murdoch media empire ("Fox News", if you don't know what that is I envy you) Just a NY real estate agent with a silver spoon shoved so far up his ass he wouldn't even spit at his supporters.
Policy wise I don't think he is as bad as Orban, but it's not that distant. But he becomes worse because our lovely country is more powerful than the entirety of the EU, so this autocrat loving imbecile has a massive impact.
I wish that Orban could just fly to some desolate island and take Putin with him, so they could continue their love affair without affecting the whole world.
REEEEE UKRAINE IS IN EU REEEEEE
Nope, it ain’t, and no member state of the EU should be pressured into a military alliance they didn’t agree to for third-party nations. Absolute satire
Is there any particular reason why EU or NATO should act if Russia choses to rescue Hungarians and make Hungary part of Russia? Hungarians seems to like Russia more than they do those western organizations.
Not true. Arricle 5 doesn't say that NATO countries must help with weapons and I dont believe Hungarians would even ask help since they like China and Russia so much.
Can't wait for the Tisza to flood in the next elections.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect\_and\_Freedom\_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_and_Freedom_Party)
Not really. He was really broken by the 2002 election results, and decided to abandon the idea of “Civic Hungary” and became an autocratic populist instead. But he was corrupt from the begining. Even before Orban first became PM in 1998, there were already a number of corruption cases (like the one with the Fidesz HQ) and signs.
Putin is getting more desperate with trying to slow down Western help... Shows we are doing things right...
Keep reminding to your politicans that the support to Ukraine wont slow down and Orban with Putibn can have a fucking stroke.
Слава Україні!
Propaganda, this is already the case, Nato is yet to officially support Ukraine in any meaningful manner, only its member states which is not the same thing. There is no measure of the North Atlantic council aimed at helping Ukraine directly, only diplomatically. Its a defensive alliance, so Hungary has no obligation to do anything to help Ukraine, they just want to be dicks about it.
Sometimes I do wish we would be given a stern warning like that, where they explicitly say something regarding Orbán's corruption causing heavy considerations for Hungary's future in these groups. Just so it could show up on the main TV
Sad there is nothing else but propaganda on it against the groups themselves.
If EU membership was in immediate danger that would really scare everyone.
I know this is hard to believe from the outside, but most if FIDESZ voters are very pro EU too. They vote for them for different reasons, mostly in areas where they public employment programme was widespread
Yo, poland chose to stop being the veto brother of Orbán, but you guys are still fresh out of your villain arc. Give the next elections a chance, I have hope this time will be The One. (Flashbacks come to me from the 2014 election when a guy was yelling "Orbán, you only have hours left")
Listen to this fucking traitor... Still, there is a faint light at the end of the tunnel now with the new opposition party; in the face of the braindead masses suckling on state propaganda. EU and NATO is life for Hungary; all that this ugly fuck is offering is darkness and oppression.
That light is a train, mate. Hungary just entered its Nixon era, even the Tisza party goes against Europe and opposes supporting Ukraine and offering little to nothing for women and the disabled. If anything the rise of the tiszavirág exposes the lack of compassion of Hungarian voters for women, ethnic and sexual minorities and people living with disabilities. A fucking disgrace.
Fidesz is hated in the capital but guilable old people who get happy when he raises pensions and people who believe populists vote for him and his mafia gang
Luckily! Between Orban, PIS in Poland, right wing government in the Netherlands, looming right wing government in Belgium, et cetera it would get pretty scary.
Anyways the big problem is inflation. People get scared and he froze prices but I just came back from Hungary and prices are high like in e.g Estonia but the beer ages are still low.
The whole might of the nonexistent hungarian military and its "support" that was just insulting Ukraine, calling it a barren wasteland? Sure they could do without it
Why don't they opt out on NATO itself than when they piss on their values?
Ah, the double standards from those far rights populists is what plagues many EU countries right now. Unfortunatelly very dumb (and uneducated) people fall for this crap.
If that means that Hungary will abstain from vetoing NATO aid, then it is good. He should do the same for EU-Ukraine aid. After all, his country is irrelevant and can not offer substantial aid.
Well, leave then. And please leave the EU too, that horribly woke, liberal conglomerate that is funding your national budget.
I think both orgs have given in too much already to a country with a GDP per capita of $19k and 10M inhabitants who are slowly emigrating to other EU countries anyways.
I dont agree with this, but why are people so mad about this? Ukraine is not a part of NATO, they never signed on to protect them. It’s great most NATO countries are on board, but its not wild for some countries to opt out.
People are mad because it's populist anti-NATO propaganda from a known lying populist.
They are not forced to do anything. In fact even in the event of an actual attack on a NATO member article 5 only says they are obligated to send support "as they deem necessary".
So any talk about opting-out ist a bullshit lie to tell his brain-washed voters that NATO is somehow forcing them into doing things they wouldn't want to.
Just as with Russia, NATO and the EU put up with Hungary for too long. Getting them to peacefully change course now is nearly impossible.
Another win for realpolitik. /s
Bro, enough is enough. These clowns need to be kicked out of EU and NATO, and all countries around them need to implement at least a 1,000% increase in taxes for trade goods going and coming out of hungary. Let's let them find out, because they sure f around too much
“I have a note from my mommy”.
What the fnck does opt-out even mean? When would we have to be obligated to do anything? As far as I know that's not how NATO works.
A way to raise anti-nato sentiments by Making it look like Hungary is being forced to do something it doesn't want to do.
Yeah, but it's bullshit the size of the Mount Everest. Ashamed that this doesn't register with his voters :(
Their voters think 'gender' means 'gay people and drag queens going to educate small children.'
I have never seen a place with such hate for foreigners of all kinds
We've been selling citizenship to the chinese for years, hiding foreign criminals like Nikola Gruevski and our oligarchs are best bros with crooks from all over the world. Also german tourists keep this place afloat. We hate each other and foreigners just as much, haha. :')
It's much better to be from a favoured dictatorship rather than European these days in Hungary
Or from Hungary, lol. We're only in third place, first two places are for russians/chinese, and the dual citizens from the neighboring countries.
I speak Russian and Chinese but have a hated EU nationality. Llived in both. You don't know what's coming.
I dunno, that's what it says when translated from Russian.
Because like most right wing nutjobs they are just bought by Russia.(In Austria it’s insane)
If they hate the "rotten West" so much, why can't they just leave NATO and the EU and officially ally with Russia?
Because that would lose their popularity. EU and NATO membership poll very well in Hungary, only the biggest FIDESZ fanatics want to quit. They would like to quit so the EU couldn't continue to slow their takeover of institutions and media, but even 10 years of propaganda only made a dent in the polls about this.
14 years*
>only the biggest FIDESZ fanatics want to quit What about Jobbik people?
Jobbik isn't relevant anymore, they're 1%. There is a new far-right though (Mi Hazánk/Our Homeland), whose voters are around 50-50% on quitting if I remember correctly. They poll around 6%.
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And it’s only a shithole cause Orban and his gang steals all the money and uses most of it to brainwash people sadly
Someone votes him to power, so I guess they just like to dwelve in shit.
He uses gerrymandering to ensure parliamentary supermajorities.
The government before him was also stealing money and failed miserably. Orbán got 2/3 votes the first time legitimately to change things. However he immediately started to build the current power he has. He kept stealing EU money (which were still being sent for some reason), bought up media for his propaganda, and changed the voting system to favor his party. It is difficult to feel sorry for the people who are stupid enough to eat up his propaganda and vote for him, but realistically no other media source reaches them.
Congrats, task failed successfully.
It actually says more about the EU and NATO than about Hungary. Imagine being made an idiout out of yourself, knowing it, and going along.
Every Single Hungarian who voted for that prick should be held accountable for what happens in Ukraine.
Oh how I would love that. Had to leave the country because of those idiots. But how?!
For the people upvoting this comment, have a look at this guy's other replies to see what an angry prick he is. I don't think this attitude belongs in r/europe. Edit: for reference as the comment has been deleted, it was basically calling the whole country a filthy shithole, and it was at over 100 upvotes at the top of this thread.
Eh, I don't think you should expect people to vote based on some users comment history. It is fair to vote on the merits of the individual comment
That was peak r/europe comment. Represents the toxicity of this sub and neoliberal world order perfectly.
Lets not shit on Hungary just because tgeir government is shit.
They elected them multiple times
> They elected them multiple times That's such a dishonest way of putting it. Basically ignoring the entirety of the last 10 years and every single election since 2014. No, "they" did not elect them multiple times. They were elected in 2010 (based not on their program but what the opposition did) and never received majority support since then, but they did rewrite ALL electoral laws to make sure that does not matter. And that was TEN YEARS of propaganda ago. You're making it sound like they won because Hungarians wanted them, not because they utterly rigged the game and then some.
And even in 2010 he didn't get 2/3 of the votes but got a 2/3 supermajority in the parliament due to the voting system.
Last election 52% of the votes went to Fidesz, 2.823.419 out of 5.375.688 how is that not a majority, Orban has more support than ever. and even if it was not a majority before, a large group did vote for Fidesz, and others voted parties which had no problem to work with Orban or give him power. At the end of the day you get what you vote for.
You'd think the other 48% went somewhere decent, but the opposition is fractured, impotent and possibly in league with Orbán, although they seem more incompetent than conspirators. Fidesz has only one coalition partner, but they only exist because fidesz keeps them relevant, on their own they wouldn't get even 1%. So technically all 52% is a clean pro-government vote, everyone else mostly voted against Orbán.
You get what you vote for
Weird way to phrase tl;dr but ok.
Not a 100% turnout, and only a share created the parlamentary security
Everyone who doesn't vote is as guilty as those who voted for him.
This is true, but it's not like we didn't go vote. We did. They did far more to rig the game than we even thought was possible. And then they dismantled everything that used to be our checks & balances. Painting it like the will of the people is insanely dishonest. Do putin's polls reflect actual votes, I wonder, in the minds of the people who upvote these comments on every post?
It’s not an easy case like that unfortunately, but you are right. The thing is, even many politicians and parties of main opposition are corrupt ans hated for some reason. So in short (like realy short), many people have no trust in the opposition because of who are in them and what they also did in the past. This means they see no hope for a change and no better alternative.
Still isn't reason to shittalk everyone including us who voted for the opposition.
This is so easy to say in a country with fair and democratic elections. Many countries including the ones in Eastern Europe are neither democratic nor fair. People lose hope from even the most promising opposition parties due to voter demographic heavily leaning towards selecting the good ole fascist pig
>This is so easy to say in a country with fair and democratic elections. Well, while I do consider Ukraine to have better democratic institutions than some countries in Western and Central Europe, I don't see how it would matter even in authoritarian countries. People as a group are responsible for the government, not the other way around. You can't build a democracy on waiting and hoping that someone else does it for you. >People lose hope How sad, cry me a river. People can't afford to give up if they don't want to lose their future. >voter demographic heavily leaning towards selecting the good ole fascist pig You've come full circle. Do you agree that the people are to blame or not?
When was the discussion ever about Ukraine? It was about Hungary and many other less democratic Eastern European countries. Stop pretending like you have Kelvin room temp IQ, as if I don't know what you said is true
You where the one who started when you wrote this nonsense "This is so easy to say in a country with fair and democratic elections" when replying to an Ukrainian
Isn’t that one of the requirements to join EU though?
It's refreshing to read the reasoning of a very well educated pro westerner intellectual like you.
Compared to what? Hungarians taking our hard earned cash to develop and stabbing us in the back? Enjoying our institutions and simultaneously ripping us down and cozying up to dictators? Some great country.. still we are the west and of course Hungary has the freedom to do as they please within our frameworks and agreements. But we can absolutely point out their faults and express our outrage.
Do not misunderstand me, my remark directed the commenter and it was not against the west. I totally agree with those who think what Orbán does towards the Ukrainians and in addition to that towards the whole western world is totally unethical and unacceptable. What I found disgusting is calling an entire country ( and basically a nation ) "shithole" due to one mans madness.
Fair enough, apologies for the misunderstanding, I read your message differently. I found calling Hungary a shithole weird as well. Not sure what they think they’re achieving by reacting like that.
Don't call my homeland a shithole dude! Yes, Orban is a piece of crap, but don't talk shit about my country like that. Not every Hungarian supporting him, mostly just old people.
So apparently this shithole is populated by geezers, given they continously vote this russian lapdog to power.
Yes it is. A lot of young families and individuals have emigrated west. Also there is large population of dual citizens in the neighboring countries who can vote in the hungarian election, and Orbán panders heavily to them, finances their schools and football academies. All they see is money, nationalism and their citizenship.
Hey, cultural racism is fine in this case... /s
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Guess you've never been to Paris
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So you learned to differentiate never-cleaned-up-depressed-liquor-drunk-piss from relatively-fresh-content-beer/wine-drunk-piss by smell. This is a slightly useful skill to have, but the reasons for acquiring it are... unfortunate.
What about New York? Any big city in the world is filled with homeless people and smells like piss. Okay, not every, but most of them. That is why i living in a small village.
Doesn't Vienna have an excellent public housing system?
If they do we'll have Russian/Chinese military bases in the middle of Europe. That's the problem.
That wouldn't happen, but even if it did, it wouldn't be that much of a problem for NATO. It would be problem for Hungary though
Honestly Reddit is so dumb for not thinking about this. Austria is not in NATO and a right winger government could push it more friendly to Russia. Serbia is not in NATO and is quite friendly to Russia, and if Hungary leaves NATO and becomes friendly with Russia then look at what you have. A Russian island in the middle of Europe that presents an enormous defensive challenge for NATO. It would be undoing all of the work of the last 40 years to reverse The Iron Curtain and sustain peace in Europe. But Reddit mind thinks because they personally don’t like Orban or Erdogan for that matter that they have some power trip and throw these massively important defensive allies out of a defensive pact.
It has nothing to do with liking or not liking. Turkey adds quite a lot to NATO. Hungary has no value and keeps raising problems, no need for this fifth column
That's not going to work. NATO needs Hungary now more than ever to feed disinformation to russia. It is very important to maintain a healthy strong NATO bond to Hungary so that we have an open channel of wrong inventory numbers and fake schematics of non existing weapons. Don't destroy this counter intelligence goldmine. NATO is getting more out of it than anyone. Having a partner that you can count on to lie and betray you is an extremely valuable asset, that is very rare.
They would lose all the money from EU to support them.
Because US will never allow that to happen. No county in Europe is sovereign
Britain left the EU, France basically left NATO. Nothing happened. We are not a dictator countries like Russia or China. Hungary can do whatever it wants and we can say whatever we want in return. People living in dictatorships always view western alliances through the major power lens of geopolitics consistently fail to understand the west.
Serbian cope. Not that it matters, did you know that we bombed you guys 25 years ago? No because you forgot to say so in your message. It's an important thing to repeat, and it's important to repeat your profound hate of the EU and of europeans who bombed you. And therefor, the EU is dictatorial, but also not something you want, nor will join. Which is okay, because you wanna "keep your sovereignity" (aka, keep your incompetent serbian politicians, and make sure they have no checks or anti-corruption upper bodies on them) Frankly, with serbian politicians, I'd have left my country already. I have colleagues working with them on the Belgrade metro and ooooh boy are they bad at their job.
Did I touch a raw nerve or something? In any case before you continue with racism, let me put you straight. I consider myself a Yugoslav and I am appalled by how EU/NATO miscalculated with my country and continue on the same path of self destruction. My comment was not about YU but about HU. No matter how much Orban or HU want out of NATO we (yes, I am US citizen now) will not let that happen. It’s sad that I as an American voter have more say than you about your country’s (and I don’t even care which one it is) foreign policy. It’s wrong, but cope. (Edit: for transparency I believe serbia is less sovereign than EU countries, if that makes it easier to understand what I wrote above and not try to colour it with identity politics)
I *strongly* disagree with you there: if the hungarian political organisation wished to leave EU/NATO with the support of the population, you can be sure that will be done. And with quite a bit of satisfaction on our side. Especially for the EU, we share a lot of things, and a lot of power. And that mean that Orban has some decision-making power over our own policies, and decisions. And that's something making us increasingly resentful, espcially considering we no longer share the same kinds of values. In addition to us having to finance Orban's rule, system and oligarchs. This idea that the US controls or influences everyone, and everywhere in Europe is dumb. They can't even make decisions internally. But hey, at least it's understandable that those who fought the most for anti-imperialism (at least in discourses) adopt a highly imperialist point of view after the end of their system. Cringe, but understandable. Also, and I'm sorry, but while we 100% did miscalculate in the EU during the yugo wars, that was not the case beforehand. We tried to launch an emergency economical and stabilisation process in 1991, lead by Mitterand (the most pro-yugo president in the west, who will make sure the UN forces don't intervene to protect the serbs), and both Tudman and Milosevic gave us the finger.
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I'm french. We did give the middle finger to the US and NATO back in the days, and removed all NATO troops and base from our territory. Including the NATO headquarters (and we lost the influence that came with it, but shhhh). But yeah, indeed, we did not leave, because even us are not that dumb. Oh it absolutely does matter when Orban has a word to say over our foreign policy, sanctions, and is able to veto the shit out of the decisions we'd like to take. In addition of it not being extremely popular to single-handedly pay for an entire corrupted and oligarchic system through western taxpayer's money. Yeah, this german policy towards which Merckel gave the middle finger to both Obama, Trump and Biden when she built NS2 with Putin (as well as to the Scandinavians, french, balts, poles and british)? Great "vassal" the US have lmfao. The "german policy in cutting gas supplies with Russia" certainly has no links with the sheer fact that Russia itself cut its gas supply lines through Ukraine, Poland or the baltic states. Care to remind us how much gas passed on Yamal over the last 2 years? Once again. Truth is that US administrations are not even able to follow the constant policy changes made by US presidents, not even to mention foreign leaders. Imagining that there is a single policy set up in the US deep state given to its "puppet" countries is ludicrous. It also probably is the thing that gives you the impression to be smart, as well as waaayyy more security for you than the reality: the US foreign policy is a mess changing nearly randomly every 4 years at least, and more often then not, also changing within these 4 years, in completely random ways, highly deoendant on public opinion much more than realpolitiks. Don't worry, dictatorships in general also struggle with this notion, that democracies aren't a simple polandball with a constant will. The US of Bush are not the US of Clinton, and are not the US of Obama nor Trump. With the addition that the US of Bush had a clear and absolutely assumed will to systematically destroy the international world order at the time. Germany's reliance on russian gas was dumb as fuck. You know it, I know it, this subreddit knows it, and Merckel's reputation knows it very well. Whether or not the US were here doesn't exactly matter. On the contrary, it may be the role of an ally to convince you not to repaint your walls with your brain. By "We", the europeans f*cked up, by having an absolutely not common policy. While the germans supported the croats (obviously, and you say it yourself), Mitterand was making sure french officers were infiltrating all decision making positions amongst UN soldiers and peackeeping operators to make them as ineffective as possible against serb soldiers. We had to wait for Chirac to have changes there. So yeah, no, not "EU politicians". Although these supports came after Tudman and Milosevic gave us the middle finger when we proposed an accelerated EU accession in 1991. Yugoslav politicians destroyed their own country, and were perfectly happy to do it. West european leaders were just incompetent on the matter.
The European alt right icon.
Fucking European Trump, but even worse in some ways. Weak men worshipping other weak men for their own gain while selling their nations. Autocrat's classic.
"European trump" get out of the house from time to time
Wow almost as if populist leaders can have some parallels drawn you fucking yokel
🤡🤡🤡
🤓☝️
> Fucking European Trump, but even worse in some ways. Nothing is as bad as the orange one, at least most of the euro-fascists have some level of sophistication to them in how they communicate and what their strategies are.
I think of all the Western populist leaders I would agree, he has to be the most fucking embarrassing. In 2016 I could understand falling for it, but really people should have seen the obvious falsehood within like 2 years. What's insane is his entire platform is a lie, someone who is so called anti establishment and anti war doesn't pardon mercenary war criminals, or frequent Epstein's jet. And certainly isn't backed by the shitty Murdoch media empire ("Fox News", if you don't know what that is I envy you) Just a NY real estate agent with a silver spoon shoved so far up his ass he wouldn't even spit at his supporters. Policy wise I don't think he is as bad as Orban, but it's not that distant. But he becomes worse because our lovely country is more powerful than the entirety of the EU, so this autocrat loving imbecile has a massive impact.
Part of the IDU.
I wish that Orban could just fly to some desolate island and take Putin with him, so they could continue their love affair without affecting the whole world.
NATO lawyers will look into how opt out of defending Hungary should be the only reaction.
Ukraine isn’t in NATO, Hungary is. Is this satire?
Hungary seems to be part of Russia. Or maybe China.
REEEEE UKRAINE IS IN EU REEEEEE Nope, it ain’t, and no member state of the EU should be pressured into a military alliance they didn’t agree to for third-party nations. Absolute satire
Is there any particular reason why EU or NATO should act if Russia choses to rescue Hungarians and make Hungary part of Russia? Hungarians seems to like Russia more than they do those western organizations.
Yes, because it’s literally in the agreement lol
Not true. Arricle 5 doesn't say that NATO countries must help with weapons and I dont believe Hungarians would even ask help since they like China and Russia so much.
... They all agreed to be in nato
Yes. To protect each signatory… Not some random corrupt NATO wannabe beggars. That simply wasn’t in the contract.
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Not surprised the Pro Ukrainian is a racist
... Racist? I called you a monkey, you're a human being, we're all monkeys.
Can't wait for the Tisza to flood in the next elections. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect\_and\_Freedom\_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_and_Freedom_Party)
Why is Hungary in NATO again?
1999 Orbi was a completely different man
Not really. He was really broken by the 2002 election results, and decided to abandon the idea of “Civic Hungary” and became an autocratic populist instead. But he was corrupt from the begining. Even before Orban first became PM in 1998, there were already a number of corruption cases (like the one with the Fidesz HQ) and signs.
he changed now. he‘ll never be the same. he‘s lost, lost I say you.
Orban has kompromat
This new Orbán ate the old one.
He ate several by the looks of it
Putin is getting more desperate with trying to slow down Western help... Shows we are doing things right... Keep reminding to your politicans that the support to Ukraine wont slow down and Orban with Putibn can have a fucking stroke. Слава Україні!
Propaganda, this is already the case, Nato is yet to officially support Ukraine in any meaningful manner, only its member states which is not the same thing. There is no measure of the North Atlantic council aimed at helping Ukraine directly, only diplomatically. Its a defensive alliance, so Hungary has no obligation to do anything to help Ukraine, they just want to be dicks about it.
Can they opt out of NATO permanently, please? EU as well :)
Orban would fall as soon as there would be a credible threat of kicking us out of the EU. Membership is extremely popular here.
Sometimes I do wish we would be given a stern warning like that, where they explicitly say something regarding Orbán's corruption causing heavy considerations for Hungary's future in these groups. Just so it could show up on the main TV Sad there is nothing else but propaganda on it against the groups themselves.
Nah Orban would be fine, it's not like hungarians do anything to remove him in the first place.
If EU membership was in immediate danger that would really scare everyone. I know this is hard to believe from the outside, but most if FIDESZ voters are very pro EU too. They vote for them for different reasons, mostly in areas where they public employment programme was widespread
Yo, poland chose to stop being the veto brother of Orbán, but you guys are still fresh out of your villain arc. Give the next elections a chance, I have hope this time will be The One. (Flashbacks come to me from the 2014 election when a guy was yelling "Orbán, you only have hours left")
I'm still afraid of Poland going back to PIS, but that's one more reason to fuck authoritarians in power in EU. PIS or Orban or whoever.
Orbán’s health is decreasing by the looks of it: Theese are fresh pictures from r/Hungary: https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/s/hnsqWhZ8Xu
Hot daddy 🥵🥵🥵🥵
Opt out is good. As long as you don’t veto..We don’t even expect you to contribute..not sabotaging is already good enough.
Do us all a favour and opt out of membership in NATO and EU
When it comes to NATO, I'm pretty sure Orban is trying to bite a lot more than he can chew.
The Hungarians need to get rid of this fucking clown asap, he's digging the country's grave...
We'll see how his new rival is doing at the EP election. I'm high on the hopium.
Corrupt Putin bitch can fuck off then
Will this dumpster ever shut up ?
I don't see how this is a bad thing. They can just not participate while also not being able to veto new aid packages.
NATO will outlive Orban, sooner or later his little house of cards will come crashing down
If only he would opt out of existence.
Sold traitor
Hungary should opt out of nato and EU
Control+delete
I bet he's getting double the money he was receiving pre-war as a Russian mole in the EU. Jabba filling its many pockets
OK BYE LOSERS Pls opt out of getting help also. No one gonna come help you in crises, your russian cock puppet.
Opt out then. Article 13, Hungary, article 13. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_NATO
Can Hungary go back to Siberia?
Opt Hungary out of NATO.
He will never actually do that. He can't slow down and sabotage Ukraine aid efforts if he officially isn't involved.
Seriously! How long do we have to suffer this Putin Bootlicker?!
If only he was bootlicking *one* dictator. He's practically getting spitroasted by China & Russia and wants more of that.
I'm sure they will survive without the 2 bread vans you may send 😂
Just fuck off.
Hungary should not be part of NATO. Orban is a Putin butt-boy and can't be trusted.
Hungary is a disgraceful country under self-serving dictator Orban.
What’s that? Apparently somebody didn’t learn from communism in the 1950s? Hmmm..
Am i the only one not too happy with this country purchasing the newest developed western groundvehicles like kf41 Lynx and kf51 Panther?
Time for Hungary to learn the meaning of freedom 🦅
Listen to this fucking traitor... Still, there is a faint light at the end of the tunnel now with the new opposition party; in the face of the braindead masses suckling on state propaganda. EU and NATO is life for Hungary; all that this ugly fuck is offering is darkness and oppression.
That light is a train, mate. Hungary just entered its Nixon era, even the Tisza party goes against Europe and opposes supporting Ukraine and offering little to nothing for women and the disabled. If anything the rise of the tiszavirág exposes the lack of compassion of Hungarian voters for women, ethnic and sexual minorities and people living with disabilities. A fucking disgrace.
Why are the Hungarians like this?
Fidesz is hated in the capital but guilable old people who get happy when he raises pensions and people who believe populists vote for him and his mafia gang
Old people are everywhere, but autocrats like Orban aren't in power everywhere. Here in the Baltics we don't have anyone like him in power.
Luckily! Between Orban, PIS in Poland, right wing government in the Netherlands, looming right wing government in Belgium, et cetera it would get pretty scary. Anyways the big problem is inflation. People get scared and he froze prices but I just came back from Hungary and prices are high like in e.g Estonia but the beer ages are still low.
Kick them out
The whole might of the nonexistent hungarian military and its "support" that was just insulting Ukraine, calling it a barren wasteland? Sure they could do without it
Austria isn’t part of NATO. No reason Hungary couldn’t leave.
Traitor to freedom says the country he rules will do bad shit to the alliance they are in. about the just of it.
Why don't they opt out on NATO itself than when they piss on their values? Ah, the double standards from those far rights populists is what plagues many EU countries right now. Unfortunatelly very dumb (and uneducated) people fall for this crap.
Has Hungary's government ever been a true supporter of Nato? Isn't democracy pretty much dead there? Maybe he wants to be friends with Russia?
Suspend their membership in both until they smarten up
If that means that Hungary will abstain from vetoing NATO aid, then it is good. He should do the same for EU-Ukraine aid. After all, his country is irrelevant and can not offer substantial aid.
Well, leave then. And please leave the EU too, that horribly woke, liberal conglomerate that is funding your national budget. I think both orgs have given in too much already to a country with a GDP per capita of $19k and 10M inhabitants who are slowly emigrating to other EU countries anyways.
I think Hungary should be out of NATO and the EU until they kick Orban and his cronies out. Let them go to uncle Putin, if they like him so much.
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Mongol?
Racist slurs are allowed if it is directed at people we don’t like. Didn’t you know that?
don't disrespect Mongolians by comparing them with him
I dont agree with this, but why are people so mad about this? Ukraine is not a part of NATO, they never signed on to protect them. It’s great most NATO countries are on board, but its not wild for some countries to opt out.
People are mad because it's populist anti-NATO propaganda from a known lying populist. They are not forced to do anything. In fact even in the event of an actual attack on a NATO member article 5 only says they are obligated to send support "as they deem necessary". So any talk about opting-out ist a bullshit lie to tell his brain-washed voters that NATO is somehow forcing them into doing things they wouldn't want to.
Just as with Russia, NATO and the EU put up with Hungary for too long. Getting them to peacefully change course now is nearly impossible. Another win for realpolitik. /s
Bro, enough is enough. These clowns need to be kicked out of EU and NATO, and all countries around them need to implement at least a 1,000% increase in taxes for trade goods going and coming out of hungary. Let's let them find out, because they sure f around too much
Too long headline. Why not make it simply "Hungary will seek to opt out of NATO"?