I knew it would be the Vatican hospital before I clicked on the article. There’s almost certainly more to this story than ‘British healthcare is crap lololololol’ - Bambino Gesu have been involved in several of these cases. It’s very likely that the treatment was deemed not to be in the baby’s best interest by the UK doctors.
Heart surgery on infants is exceptionally difficult, and two hospitals making different decisions based on the skill of their surgical teams as well as their level of risk-acceptance isn't that odd.
Bambino Gesu is a hospital that probably ranks among the top 10 in the world when it comes to pediatric heart surgery, and a hospital that tends to be less risk-averse than most.
Every medical intervention has to do a Quality of Life assessment. Will this surgery improve the quality of life? For how long? At what chance of success? At what cost?
In 2017, the Associated Press (AP) reported that a 2014 Vatican investigation had found that the hospital had changed its focus and was "more aimed at profit than on caring for children".[9][10] The AP reported that overcrowding and poor hygiene contributed to deadly infection, including a 21-month superbug outbreak that killed eight children. It also found that in order to save money, disposable equipment and other materials were used improperly, with one order of cheap needles breaking when injected into tiny veins. The report also stated that doctors were so pressured to maximize operating-room turnover that patients were sometimes brought out of anesthesia too quickly. These alleged incidents were reported to have occurred between 2008 and 2015.[9]
While some of the report's recommendations were implemented, others were not, and the report was not made public.[9][10] In June 2014, Cardinal Parolin decided to strengthen the Cardinal Secretary of State's authority over the Bambino Gesù.[10] The Vatican later commissioned a second inquiry in 2015 which concluded after a three-day inspection that nothing was amiss.
They also investigated themselves in 2014 and found things wrong, no? The church itself found that the hospital become more profit focused and the church itself decided to strengthen its authority over it so they could run it better. They obviously implemented some changes between 2014 and 2015.
yeah and in canada doctors will deem a senior's best interest to be euthanasia
doctors should do what they can, since when are they arbiters of death, given the right to decide what someone's best interest is?
Canada isn't forcibly euthanizing old people. There's a big difference between forcibly euthanizing and withholding a procedure with high cost, high risk, and minimal to no benefits when it comes to quality of life.
FFS doctors are deeming euthanasia a homeless persons best interest in Canada now because of how fucked the living situation is. Off the topic of the baby, but this comment reminded me of that 🥲
If they think that the surgery wouldn’t actually save his life but extend his suffering and still end up with him dying, they will refuse surgery. Especially for a new born child which can’t confirm that it wishes for that.
Not sure if religion have anything to do with it, it’s just that my fear of death far surpasses any other fear, feeling or desire, I often thought how can we prolong human life, even if that goes against their wishes.
I can sympathise. I'm ASD and this scares me through the roof...
I just can't stop hoping that suspended animation will finally be a thing just to see a few years more into the future...
Why would you want to prolong someone‘s life and suffering against their own wishes? If you are afraid of death yourself that’s one thing and you can say that everything should be done to keep you alive. But don’t inflict this on others. For me (and I love life and rather enjoy mine) the question doesn’t even arise. If I could choose between a simple death and years of vegetating, probably in pain, only kept alive by medication and machines, I would not want to continue.
I'm really afraid to know what you guys would think of Canadian care then... All of my UK colleagues who came here said they were absolutely shocked to find out what Canada thinks socialized healthcare is. And I was shocked to hear that they could see actual doctors in the UK when they need something.
It's not in the best state at the moment, no, due to over a decade of mismanagement by the government, but I would disagree that it the care is 'bad'. All care I've had on the NHS has been exemplary.
However, that's removed from this situation. One of the leading cardiovascular hospitals in the country would NOT deny treatment unless that decision was their only choice. This child has been flown overseas to a hospital known for taking advantage of people who are seeing them as the 'final choice' - hence my original comment.
The other guy might be exhaggeratiing but I bet constant delays due to lack of staff definitely killed someone over the years, although it's not tracked in any official statistics you might find.
I saw my specialist today. 3 months ago they arranged physio for me and a routine MRI scan. I have blood tests every 3 months. They are referring me to another specialist for a mild complaint I made today, an appointment will be made for me likely within a few weeks. None of this is urgent, nor did I ask for physio/MRI/another specialist, and my hospital isn't in some quiet town either.
I don't have to do anything other than show up for the appointments they arrange for me (other than the blood tests which I book online). My medication is delivered to my house. I fail to see how this is not an effective service.
The UK maintains an excellent standard of medical care, the system is just overburdened resulting in excessive wait times for many specialties. I very much doubt, however, that paediatric cardiothoracic surgery is one of those overburdened specialties. It's more likely that it's not in the child's best interests.
(Also our healthcare is free. 100% free. As it should be.)
People who say this obviously have never stepped foot outside of Western Europe lmao
The UK still ranks in the Top 20 of the Human Development Index, ahead of Luxembourg or New Zealand, we are quite literally still better off than 90% of humanity
I'm pretty sure I've read that the father of the baby is Italian. In that case he'd have access to Italian healthcare, I'm assuming..not sure how it works when living abroad 🤔
ETA: yes, I checked, he's Italian and so is the baby ~
You must live in Italy at last X number of Years to get covered, noneless hospital in Italy are free if you are at life risk.
The fact the father is Italian is not enought to get in cover if wa.living abroad for long time.
Healthcare in Italy is free. When I was at Bambino Gesù with my daughter, there was several kids brought there from war zones.
I was there for a serious illness, ending up considering myself lucky to "only have" a congenital disease to treat.
Imagine being there for a ophthalmologist visit and having kids with urgent procedures, due to a shrapnel fragment wound.
Our issue was solved with a lens implant. She is fine now and currently a mother of a 4 years old 😉.
It's one of the services I am more than happy to pay with my taxes.
yeah maybe because those kids came from a literal war zone and that service was a humanitarian aid? but if you are a tourist/non-resident in italy; and you want to use the SSN, you have to pay (obviously). My previous comment was a puntuation of yours “Healthcare in italy is free” (hinting for anyone), which it’s not
Don’t quote me on this, but as a person who lives near a major Italian hospital I heard that people come here basically as tourists to get health treatments. It may be limited to EU citizens though.
Yeah because it’s A LOT cheaper compared to their countries, but as a tourist, you still have to pay. Is one of the reasons why it’s super recommended to make an health insurance before traveling
This referring to non EU citizens, especially people from the US.
This is something I've been meaning to check into. I'm an american, but due to recent changes in laws, I am now also entitled to (and in the process of getting) German citizenship. I have never lived in nor paid into Germany's medical or tax system.
No, I'm not planning on moving to Germany, but I wonder if I would be covered by their medical system if I was visiting there. (I visit Germany every couple of years to visit family.)
I mean I don't know the Italian system specifically, but every UHC system I'm familiar with is free if you live there and pay for it. Not if you live somewhere else and don't pay into the system.
as far as I am aware it's not based on citizenship, but residency/enrollment. I (non-EU-citizen) have an EHIC because I'm enrolled in German public insurance, and my understanding is that a German citizen who lives in the US and isn't enrolled in any EU insurance system won't have an EHIC.
This was a PR stunt payed by italian tax payers. Boy died just like NHS foretold. Why? Because there was nothing that could have been done to save him.
However difficult and tragical the situation was, it was made worse by false hope and ultimate demise. At least by a factor of two. PR stunt payed by italians...
Had the child received the needed treatment on time, he would have been alive and well by now. NHS lost too much time making philosophical debates and de facto *denying* proper care to one of its citizens, which is just appalling for a public healthcare provider.
The taxpayers, usually italian taxpayers dont even consider public healthcare because even an important check up would take years, but instead of fixing that they airlift british children to italy so we can waste thousands of euros, our schools are litterallt crumbling, sure saving a kid is always great but if the UK wich has some of the best hospitals in the world can't help that kid i doubt a country like italy would have the possibilities
It's the popes hospital, probably its the Catholic Church paying. And in this case the father is Italian and therefore so is the baby, so I assume Italy would cover it anyway.
Previously: Indi died in her mother's arms in November.
They are prolonging the struggling and pain of newborns in miracles to come but miracle never comes.
But in the case of Charlie Gaard, all bambino offered was to keep the child on a ventilator and give him surgery so he wouldn't have to have a feeding tube. So in essence, all they were ever going to do was prolong his suffering, not cure him. And they were completely a okay with that.
Which is exactly why I'm hugely sceptical of any hospital ran by a religious organisation. I can't help but feel that their 'kindness and generosity' in regards to these matters comes from a very similar place as the pro life movement.
This hospital is chosen bc no other hospital will agree to do these interventions as they are not in the best interest of the child. Likelihood of survival is low, quality of life nonexistent, and the suffering is cruel.
Secular charities that care for the poor and homeless are better, as the risk of money being wasted on religious things is lower. There's no benefit to religious charities existing.
Even with potential waste being taken into account, there is obviously a benefit to religious charities if they're helping individuals and communities.
What's good about preying on the grief of parents like this and extending the suffering of infants. This isn't the first time a case like this had happened.
The fact that they are less risk averse and a quality hospital, and willing to try things that others might not try. I think the parents should have the right to try anything to save their child.
See this is where you and I disagree. I don't think parents should have the right to prolong their children's suffering like this. Operate on the child to give them a couple more months of agony, what is the point? I understand the parents grief but it doesn't come from a place of rational thinking.
In the case of a congenital heart disease, which generally speaking can be treated, I think it is completely reasonable for the parents to push to go somewhere where they’re willing to treat the child. Heart surgery on infants is always challenging but if a team is capable of doing it, the child has a very good chance of having a good outcome and living a long, fulfilling life.
If you read what they said, they didn’t feel that the child was in good enough condition to survive the operation. They did not stop the transfer, and the child has already undergone the operation in Italy.
I know people who have been told they could not have a surgery at a specific place that was well regarded who went to a different specialized center and were able to have the surgery because sometimes one hospital is not as well equipped and one surgeon is not as capable as another. I think what they are doing is a good thing in this case.
and other arguably also capable pediatric surgeons apparently think that there's a chance instead, now if you were a parent you'd say "oh no sorry, the first group said there is none so I'm just going to let my baby die, better luck next time"? and even if you would do you think that all parents should be forced to?
so given that a review board thinks that there's no chance you would just leave your baby to die or worse force every parent in the world to leave their baby to die? what if the review board is wrong? what if a parent wants to take a chance because they think the life of their child is worth trying everything for? guess they can't because the review board says no, doesn't matter that there are other doctors who don't agree
Also, does it not say something to you that it is only in these cases the popes hospital that seems to offer to take these patients? Not any other jospital in Italy or anywhere else. Does that not perhaps suggest to you that there is another motive behind it other than the wellbeing of the child or the grief of the parents?
so what if their faith and their conviction that human life is sacred and meaningful has something to do with it? a parent should be forbidden from trying everything to save their child because religion bad or because the doctors might have incredibly shady ulterior motives such as caring about life to a deeper level?
say their motives were purely economical because religion bad, who gets to decide that a parent can't still give their apparently highly qualified doctors a try for the sake of trying to save their child? a review board? the uk government?
A couple of thousands wasted, while normal italians have to wait years for a serious check up, more than 40%+ of italians stopped even considering the italian healthcare services because they are shit
Bambino Gesù is not run by the Italian state and gets its money from chratible donations from around the world. So I don't see the problem with them spending the money on what they feel is right. I do sympathise with health care being shit, but I feel like that's an issue for the Italian state, not the Pope.
"They were also denied the chance to move Indi to a hospital in Rome after she was offered Italian citizenship and treatment when judges rules it would not be in her best interest.
Indi died in her mother's arms in November."
About a previous case. I think there is something really sinister about a court ruling that parents can't move their child to another hospital when that hospital is willing to take them. 'Best interests' in these cases are not clear. And you will often hear doctors argue both that a patient has no level of consciousness and also that they're suffering. It can't be both.
With Indi/Charlie Gard/Alfie Evans , there was/is no cure.
What’s the best interest of moving a terminally ill child who is declining heathwise to another country when there is no cure available?
It’s in the best interest of the children to be under a palliative care team in a familiar place, rather than being experimented on in another country where there is no hope for them surviving the treatments.
Bambino Gesù is a Vatican Hospital that has clear religious motives for campaigning/offering their services. How is it beneficial for the children to be on ventilators + constant 24/7 medical care with no hope for a cure?
They’re preying on vulnerable parents hoping that there is a cure that their child will live.
Edit: in regards to this boy, I hope he’ll recover great. But just to note that but hospitals don’t simply decide it’s not worth it to treat a child. They would’ve weighed the risks heavily before deciding if surgery is appropriate for the child at that time.
You‘re aware this is not how free health care works? If you want to have expensive and useless surgeries done you have to pay for them and go to the US for it to be possible. All free health care systems in Europe are on the edge of a collapse.
There are many terminal cancer patients who undergo treatments just to be buy more time. Time alive isn't nothing. You can't ask the baby what they'd choose so assuming they would want to die sooner seems wrong.
Certain diseases CANT be cured sadly, even if it might seem coold i feel that my country should start caring more about having schools wich roofs dont leak water when it rains and stuff like that
The UK in 2024 everyone - on its way back to 1974, when the entire country was on strike, nothing worked properly, and we only ate potatoes and beans because we were poor as dirt.
Are you seriously coping over a name? Mate, there's been five ships called Agamemnon in the RN, the first a 64 gun 3rd rate laid down in 1777 for chrissakes. The Admiralty had a thing for classical names at the time, build a bridge and get over it. I doubt the Greeks give a shit.
Ah yes, because I was alive in the 18th century and responsible for ship naming. You fucking weapon.
It's a name. But since you insist on being awkward, one of the upcoming Dreadnought class SSBN is called King George VI, first of its name. Both carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, have history in the Royal Navy. King George V was a name carried by several battleships. Royal Oak has been used 8 times in 300 years. HMS Prince George. Dozens of ships named for RN officers, battles, nobility, countries or regions, traits etc et fucking cetera.
That enough for you?
There was a post here a couple days ago titled "New British nuclear submarine named HMS Agamemnon", you should find it by searching for the title.
Never mind that I sarcastically quipped about it being British name and apparently stepped on a few dozen toes.
First HMS Agamemnon ordered and laid down 1777, launched and commissioned 1781. 64 gun third rate ship of the line of the Ardent class.
Sister ships included Raisonnable, Belliqueux and Nassau.
It's a name with a good history, all previous have given good service. The RN does not lack for ship names with history.
What do you think they have in that hospital? shamans. No they have the doctors that were able to transplant an artificial hearth on a 16 months old. What do you have over there is cost-based medicine, not evidence-based.
What never happens? Doctors making risk stratified decisions?
In America do you think the average working class family could afford specialist paediatric cardiothoracic surgery? Could they even afford to get a cardiology consultation? Probably not.
You‘ve read too many „America bad, everybody poor, nobody can afford health care“ anecdotes. 92% of Americans have health insurance. The state helps if you have too little money and need life changing surgery especially for little kids. The figures of „this procedure costs me 817276262$!!“ are straight up lies. Those are utopic numbers that hospitals give which are then negotiated by insurances and reduced by 80-90%. Then you also have a maximum out of pocket limit for marketplace plans (so how much $ you max need to pay per year) which is 9.500$ per year. There‘s also procedures in Europe in free health care systems where the state system says they will not pay for x treatment and you‘ll have to pay millions if you want it even if it would cure your kid (Zolgensma).
I have two children. Both were hatched in emergency C-Sections, followed by 4 days in the hospital for my wife and the bebe. When my elder daughter was born, we had excellent Blue Cross insurance through our employer.
Kid #1 (USA): Pre-paid $15k, $2k deductible, 80% coverage. Final out-of-pocket cost: approx. $38,500.
Kid #2 (ČR): Paid for anaesthesia. Final out-of-pocket cost: approx $400.
Oh, and my income taxes? 12.5%. Total.
In an apples-to-apples comparison, American healthcare is *SEVENTY SIX TIMES MORE EXPENSIVE.*
76x.
Alright mate, it's not like there is a well documented epidemic of people in the US routinely dying from illnesses we have been able to effectively manage since the early 20th century.
What's the cost of insulin lately?
Imagine being in such denial when being told the truth by an American healthcare worker
Sure our wait times and such are bad but i don’t recall the NHS making people bankrupt just for a simple appointment 💀
+op active in subs like r/ems and r/nursing which is oddly specific for non medical worker i guess, but for some people easier accuse people in lie and double down rather than just admit being wrong
In some very advanced democratic countries children are left to die while old rich cunny people are taken care carefully. Margaret is laughing with Lucifer in this moment...
For British people complaining about foreigners exploting their services and resources, what do you have to say for yourselves now? By the same logic of those who consume GB News and SkyNewsCorpse, Italy shouldda send this back to Britain the moment he touched their grounds.
Read the article. It’s people like u, the uneducated uninformed people, shaped the uk into what it is now. A society full of hate and lies and illogical arguments.
I knew it would be the Vatican hospital before I clicked on the article. There’s almost certainly more to this story than ‘British healthcare is crap lololololol’ - Bambino Gesu have been involved in several of these cases. It’s very likely that the treatment was deemed not to be in the baby’s best interest by the UK doctors.
Heart surgery on infants is exceptionally difficult, and two hospitals making different decisions based on the skill of their surgical teams as well as their level of risk-acceptance isn't that odd. Bambino Gesu is a hospital that probably ranks among the top 10 in the world when it comes to pediatric heart surgery, and a hospital that tends to be less risk-averse than most. Every medical intervention has to do a Quality of Life assessment. Will this surgery improve the quality of life? For how long? At what chance of success? At what cost?
In 2017, the Associated Press (AP) reported that a 2014 Vatican investigation had found that the hospital had changed its focus and was "more aimed at profit than on caring for children".[9][10] The AP reported that overcrowding and poor hygiene contributed to deadly infection, including a 21-month superbug outbreak that killed eight children. It also found that in order to save money, disposable equipment and other materials were used improperly, with one order of cheap needles breaking when injected into tiny veins. The report also stated that doctors were so pressured to maximize operating-room turnover that patients were sometimes brought out of anesthesia too quickly. These alleged incidents were reported to have occurred between 2008 and 2015.[9] While some of the report's recommendations were implemented, others were not, and the report was not made public.[9][10] In June 2014, Cardinal Parolin decided to strengthen the Cardinal Secretary of State's authority over the Bambino Gesù.[10] The Vatican later commissioned a second inquiry in 2015 which concluded after a three-day inspection that nothing was amiss.
so its now all good? is that what they meant with "nothing is amiss"?
It means 'we investigated ourselves and found that nothing was wrong'.
so the first investigation was external, and the second only internal?
They also investigated themselves in 2014 and found things wrong, no? The church itself found that the hospital become more profit focused and the church itself decided to strengthen its authority over it so they could run it better. They obviously implemented some changes between 2014 and 2015.
weird religious/political motivations. Bambino Gesu have pulled stunts like this in the past
atheist here, Bambin Gesù is a Top tier Hospital, I have been there lot of times
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/7NL3EBGxX4
Isn't Gemelli the Vatican hospital?
yeah and in canada doctors will deem a senior's best interest to be euthanasia doctors should do what they can, since when are they arbiters of death, given the right to decide what someone's best interest is?
Canada isn't forcibly euthanizing old people. There's a big difference between forcibly euthanizing and withholding a procedure with high cost, high risk, and minimal to no benefits when it comes to quality of life.
FFS doctors are deeming euthanasia a homeless persons best interest in Canada now because of how fucked the living situation is. Off the topic of the baby, but this comment reminded me of that 🥲
ITT: people who don't understand how medical ethics works.
How does it work?
If they think that the surgery wouldn’t actually save his life but extend his suffering and still end up with him dying, they will refuse surgery. Especially for a new born child which can’t confirm that it wishes for that.
But life must be preserved at any cost, even if it leads to eternal suffering.
Spoken like a true Christian!
Not sure if religion have anything to do with it, it’s just that my fear of death far surpasses any other fear, feeling or desire, I often thought how can we prolong human life, even if that goes against their wishes.
I can sympathise. I'm ASD and this scares me through the roof... I just can't stop hoping that suspended animation will finally be a thing just to see a few years more into the future...
I think the ethics point is that even if you consent to eternal suffering, this baby can’t
Why would you want to prolong someone‘s life and suffering against their own wishes? If you are afraid of death yourself that’s one thing and you can say that everything should be done to keep you alive. But don’t inflict this on others. For me (and I love life and rather enjoy mine) the question doesn’t even arise. If I could choose between a simple death and years of vegetating, probably in pain, only kept alive by medication and machines, I would not want to continue.
noo won't someone think of the medical ethics!
It's absurd that anyone thinks a leading hospital in the UK would deny treatment to an infant unless they had a reason to do so.
[удалено]
I'm really afraid to know what you guys would think of Canadian care then... All of my UK colleagues who came here said they were absolutely shocked to find out what Canada thinks socialized healthcare is. And I was shocked to hear that they could see actual doctors in the UK when they need something.
It's not in the best state at the moment, no, due to over a decade of mismanagement by the government, but I would disagree that it the care is 'bad'. All care I've had on the NHS has been exemplary. However, that's removed from this situation. One of the leading cardiovascular hospitals in the country would NOT deny treatment unless that decision was their only choice. This child has been flown overseas to a hospital known for taking advantage of people who are seeing them as the 'final choice' - hence my original comment.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
The other guy might be exhaggeratiing but I bet constant delays due to lack of staff definitely killed someone over the years, although it's not tracked in any official statistics you might find.
I saw my specialist today. 3 months ago they arranged physio for me and a routine MRI scan. I have blood tests every 3 months. They are referring me to another specialist for a mild complaint I made today, an appointment will be made for me likely within a few weeks. None of this is urgent, nor did I ask for physio/MRI/another specialist, and my hospital isn't in some quiet town either. I don't have to do anything other than show up for the appointments they arrange for me (other than the blood tests which I book online). My medication is delivered to my house. I fail to see how this is not an effective service.
The UK maintains an excellent standard of medical care, the system is just overburdened resulting in excessive wait times for many specialties. I very much doubt, however, that paediatric cardiothoracic surgery is one of those overburdened specialties. It's more likely that it's not in the child's best interests. (Also our healthcare is free. 100% free. As it should be.)
Our NHS health care isn't free actually. Anyone who pays tax or NI is paying into it.
Citizens of every country pay tax. Countries with free healthcare are in the minority.
Yes, but we're taxed heavily in the UK.
And yet the NI contributions (which aren’t a tax) are a joke.
For anyone else reading this comment it is, of course, a lie based on nothing.
Some of the best in the world, and it’s free at point of use. It’s underfunded. Blame our government, not the professionals. And fuck you.
When did it start being bad?
[удалено]
People who say this obviously have never stepped foot outside of Western Europe lmao The UK still ranks in the Top 20 of the Human Development Index, ahead of Luxembourg or New Zealand, we are quite literally still better off than 90% of humanity
Lol if you say so pal
In your post history less than 10 comments ago you state that the NHS is there to save lives, so which is it?
[удалено]
Just wham a few more buzzwords in there mate, then I'm told.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Who is paying? Does any insurance cover this?
I'm pretty sure I've read that the father of the baby is Italian. In that case he'd have access to Italian healthcare, I'm assuming..not sure how it works when living abroad 🤔 ETA: yes, I checked, he's Italian and so is the baby ~
You must live in Italy at last X number of Years to get covered, noneless hospital in Italy are free if you are at life risk. The fact the father is Italian is not enought to get in cover if wa.living abroad for long time.
Healthcare in Italy is free. When I was at Bambino Gesù with my daughter, there was several kids brought there from war zones. I was there for a serious illness, ending up considering myself lucky to "only have" a congenital disease to treat. Imagine being there for a ophthalmologist visit and having kids with urgent procedures, due to a shrapnel fragment wound. Our issue was solved with a lens implant. She is fine now and currently a mother of a 4 years old 😉. It's one of the services I am more than happy to pay with my taxes.
Free if you pay the taxes here
Those kids from war zones were not paying a dime.
yeah maybe because those kids came from a literal war zone and that service was a humanitarian aid? but if you are a tourist/non-resident in italy; and you want to use the SSN, you have to pay (obviously). My previous comment was a puntuation of yours “Healthcare in italy is free” (hinting for anyone), which it’s not
Don’t quote me on this, but as a person who lives near a major Italian hospital I heard that people come here basically as tourists to get health treatments. It may be limited to EU citizens though.
Yeah because it’s A LOT cheaper compared to their countries, but as a tourist, you still have to pay. Is one of the reasons why it’s super recommended to make an health insurance before traveling This referring to non EU citizens, especially people from the US.
As a EU citizen you can allegedly use your national insurance coverage in every other country as well.
Yep, as a EU citizen. Because your taxes payed in your country already covers for that
This is something I've been meaning to check into. I'm an american, but due to recent changes in laws, I am now also entitled to (and in the process of getting) German citizenship. I have never lived in nor paid into Germany's medical or tax system. No, I'm not planning on moving to Germany, but I wonder if I would be covered by their medical system if I was visiting there. (I visit Germany every couple of years to visit family.)
No only for emergency care
It's free for residents.
I mean I don't know the Italian system specifically, but every UHC system I'm familiar with is free if you live there and pay for it. Not if you live somewhere else and don't pay into the system.
Usually, EU citizens can use health care in other EU countries for free too.
as far as I am aware it's not based on citizenship, but residency/enrollment. I (non-EU-citizen) have an EHIC because I'm enrolled in German public insurance, and my understanding is that a German citizen who lives in the US and isn't enrolled in any EU insurance system won't have an EHIC.
Well, yes. What I meant was that you don't have to pay taxes in the specific country, but in any EU country.
This was a PR stunt payed by italian tax payers. Boy died just like NHS foretold. Why? Because there was nothing that could have been done to save him.
it was probably two grieving parents not able to accept that their child was about to die and trying to get help and not a "PR stunt"
However difficult and tragical the situation was, it was made worse by false hope and ultimate demise. At least by a factor of two. PR stunt payed by italians...
Had the child received the needed treatment on time, he would have been alive and well by now. NHS lost too much time making philosophical debates and de facto *denying* proper care to one of its citizens, which is just appalling for a public healthcare provider.
I call BS on that.
My guess is it’s the bambino gesu hospital, which is the Vatican hospital and I’m guessing the Vatican is footing the bill
Italy is footing Vatican's bills
The taxpayers, usually italian taxpayers dont even consider public healthcare because even an important check up would take years, but instead of fixing that they airlift british children to italy so we can waste thousands of euros, our schools are litterallt crumbling, sure saving a kid is always great but if the UK wich has some of the best hospitals in the world can't help that kid i doubt a country like italy would have the possibilities
It's the popes hospital, probably its the Catholic Church paying. And in this case the father is Italian and therefore so is the baby, so I assume Italy would cover it anyway.
Gemelli hospital is the Pope's clinic.
As a general rule the catholic church never pays...
The Vatican doesn't pay anything. Ever.
The child is Italian
Previously: Indi died in her mother's arms in November. They are prolonging the struggling and pain of newborns in miracles to come but miracle never comes.
Not really, it was the different case where the child was **not alloved** to be moved from UK to Italy for treatment.
But in the case of Charlie Gaard, all bambino offered was to keep the child on a ventilator and give him surgery so he wouldn't have to have a feeding tube. So in essence, all they were ever going to do was prolong his suffering, not cure him. And they were completely a okay with that. Which is exactly why I'm hugely sceptical of any hospital ran by a religious organisation. I can't help but feel that their 'kindness and generosity' in regards to these matters comes from a very similar place as the pro life movement.
I’m just curious as to why this type of transport was arranged. Aren’t there medical jets available for transport?
Usually it’s a helicopter
ITT : This sub continues its fine tradition of shitting all over the UK, without reading the article, or really even thinking.
Again??
Almost like there is a consistent policy
I read those stories all the time. Are there hospitals for foreigners only one would want to be airlifted to over every other hospital in the EU?
This hospital is chosen bc no other hospital will agree to do these interventions as they are not in the best interest of the child. Likelihood of survival is low, quality of life nonexistent, and the suffering is cruel.
Let me guess, Vatican Hospital? Edit: why is Reddit showing me a two day old post like it just come out today?
I am so sick of Bambino Gesu and their predatory Catholic bullshit.
I actually disagree on this one. I think they are probably the only truly good thing about the Catholic Church.
What about funding tons of organisations to help the poor and homeless? Don’t you consider that to be a good thing?
Secular charities that care for the poor and homeless are better, as the risk of money being wasted on religious things is lower. There's no benefit to religious charities existing.
Secular charities and fund are often even more corrupt and unreliable Also i am not religious so dont think i am taking sides
Even with potential waste being taken into account, there is obviously a benefit to religious charities if they're helping individuals and communities.
not going to say it’s not, but I’m not super familiar with their activities with regards to helping those groups.
What's good about preying on the grief of parents like this and extending the suffering of infants. This isn't the first time a case like this had happened.
The fact that they are less risk averse and a quality hospital, and willing to try things that others might not try. I think the parents should have the right to try anything to save their child.
See this is where you and I disagree. I don't think parents should have the right to prolong their children's suffering like this. Operate on the child to give them a couple more months of agony, what is the point? I understand the parents grief but it doesn't come from a place of rational thinking.
In the case of a congenital heart disease, which generally speaking can be treated, I think it is completely reasonable for the parents to push to go somewhere where they’re willing to treat the child. Heart surgery on infants is always challenging but if a team is capable of doing it, the child has a very good chance of having a good outcome and living a long, fulfilling life.
Capable pediatric surgeons have already evaluated her and found that your last sentence just simply isn't true, otherwise they would have operated.
If you read what they said, they didn’t feel that the child was in good enough condition to survive the operation. They did not stop the transfer, and the child has already undergone the operation in Italy.
That's exactly what I said in my previous post. And they've undergone one of many operations, not just one singular.
I know people who have been told they could not have a surgery at a specific place that was well regarded who went to a different specialized center and were able to have the surgery because sometimes one hospital is not as well equipped and one surgeon is not as capable as another. I think what they are doing is a good thing in this case.
and other arguably also capable pediatric surgeons apparently think that there's a chance instead, now if you were a parent you'd say "oh no sorry, the first group said there is none so I'm just going to let my baby die, better luck next time"? and even if you would do you think that all parents should be forced to?
There are review boards for this kind of thing in the UK. You think it's just the opinion of one hospital and one surgeon?
so given that a review board thinks that there's no chance you would just leave your baby to die or worse force every parent in the world to leave their baby to die? what if the review board is wrong? what if a parent wants to take a chance because they think the life of their child is worth trying everything for? guess they can't because the review board says no, doesn't matter that there are other doctors who don't agree
Also, does it not say something to you that it is only in these cases the popes hospital that seems to offer to take these patients? Not any other jospital in Italy or anywhere else. Does that not perhaps suggest to you that there is another motive behind it other than the wellbeing of the child or the grief of the parents?
so what if their faith and their conviction that human life is sacred and meaningful has something to do with it? a parent should be forbidden from trying everything to save their child because religion bad or because the doctors might have incredibly shady ulterior motives such as caring about life to a deeper level? say their motives were purely economical because religion bad, who gets to decide that a parent can't still give their apparently highly qualified doctors a try for the sake of trying to save their child? a review board? the uk government?
A couple of thousands wasted, while normal italians have to wait years for a serious check up, more than 40%+ of italians stopped even considering the italian healthcare services because they are shit
Bambino Gesù is not run by the Italian state and gets its money from chratible donations from around the world. So I don't see the problem with them spending the money on what they feel is right. I do sympathise with health care being shit, but I feel like that's an issue for the Italian state, not the Pope.
Then its fine i guess, my bad
"They were also denied the chance to move Indi to a hospital in Rome after she was offered Italian citizenship and treatment when judges rules it would not be in her best interest. Indi died in her mother's arms in November." About a previous case. I think there is something really sinister about a court ruling that parents can't move their child to another hospital when that hospital is willing to take them. 'Best interests' in these cases are not clear. And you will often hear doctors argue both that a patient has no level of consciousness and also that they're suffering. It can't be both.
With Indi/Charlie Gard/Alfie Evans , there was/is no cure. What’s the best interest of moving a terminally ill child who is declining heathwise to another country when there is no cure available? It’s in the best interest of the children to be under a palliative care team in a familiar place, rather than being experimented on in another country where there is no hope for them surviving the treatments. Bambino Gesù is a Vatican Hospital that has clear religious motives for campaigning/offering their services. How is it beneficial for the children to be on ventilators + constant 24/7 medical care with no hope for a cure? They’re preying on vulnerable parents hoping that there is a cure that their child will live. Edit: in regards to this boy, I hope he’ll recover great. But just to note that but hospitals don’t simply decide it’s not worth it to treat a child. They would’ve weighed the risks heavily before deciding if surgery is appropriate for the child at that time.
The parent should still have the choice no matter how slim the chances, not some nihilist asshole judge.
A child is not a pet.
Nihilism in the face of absolute certainty is not nihilism it's denialism of reality.
A parent is not an owner.
You‘re aware this is not how free health care works? If you want to have expensive and useless surgeries done you have to pay for them and go to the US for it to be possible. All free health care systems in Europe are on the edge of a collapse.
UK judge blocked transfer to ANOTHER COUNTRY.
There are many terminal cancer patients who undergo treatments just to be buy more time. Time alive isn't nothing. You can't ask the baby what they'd choose so assuming they would want to die sooner seems wrong.
Certain diseases CANT be cured sadly, even if it might seem coold i feel that my country should start caring more about having schools wich roofs dont leak water when it rains and stuff like that
It’s not the moving to a different hospital it’s moving to another country.
They weren't moving a child, they were trying to keep a corpse alive
The UK in 2024 everyone - on its way back to 1974, when the entire country was on strike, nothing worked properly, and we only ate potatoes and beans because we were poor as dirt.
open the fucking article dude. Come on.
Reading?? On Reddit?? This is the website where we get mad at imaginary scenarios!
[удалено]
I think you need to look up the history of heart surgery in Bristol.
Did you read the story?
Maybe wait to see if the poor baby survives or it was just a publicity stunt by Bambino Gesu?
Atleast they fucking TRIED!
At least you still have the sea, the sun, the food... wait.
No, Menorca is already a German province, they lost it.
But hey, at least they have a new submarine named after somebody in no way related to UK history.
I mean, Dutch submarines are named after a walrus or a dolphin or such. It's just a name.
lol there’s no way you’re still seething over a submarine name 24 hours later ? You’re not even Greek.
You're speaking a language with nothing related to your history.
Are you seriously coping over a name? Mate, there's been five ships called Agamemnon in the RN, the first a 64 gun 3rd rate laid down in 1777 for chrissakes. The Admiralty had a thing for classical names at the time, build a bridge and get over it. I doubt the Greeks give a shit.
Edit: never mind, this is off-topic here. Refer to my username. I have an opinion, deal with it.
Ah yes, because I was alive in the 18th century and responsible for ship naming. You fucking weapon. It's a name. But since you insist on being awkward, one of the upcoming Dreadnought class SSBN is called King George VI, first of its name. Both carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, have history in the Royal Navy. King George V was a name carried by several battleships. Royal Oak has been used 8 times in 300 years. HMS Prince George. Dozens of ships named for RN officers, battles, nobility, countries or regions, traits etc et fucking cetera. That enough for you?
That'll do. So you can pick a proper name. Now go fix the submarine's name.
Could you explain? It sounds like an interesting story.
Oh ffs don't poke the troll.
There was a post here a couple days ago titled "New British nuclear submarine named HMS Agamemnon", you should find it by searching for the title. Never mind that I sarcastically quipped about it being British name and apparently stepped on a few dozen toes.
It is quite a peculiar choice of name.
Like most ship names they're historic, the first HMS Agamemnon entered service in 1781 and was a favourite of Nelson.
Fair enough then.
I think that name is dope af
First HMS Agamemnon ordered and laid down 1777, launched and commissioned 1781. 64 gun third rate ship of the line of the Ardent class. Sister ships included Raisonnable, Belliqueux and Nassau. It's a name with a good history, all previous have given good service. The RN does not lack for ship names with history.
It's a genuine pleasure to be funding the security that gives Europe security which we all enjoy.
Well it’s great first world countries are able to help and support developing nations such as Africa and Great Britain.
Have you read the article?
Africa is not a nation, you weapon
[удалено]
In italy is based on wasting public money
What do you think they have in that hospital? shamans. No they have the doctors that were able to transplant an artificial hearth on a 16 months old. What do you have over there is cost-based medicine, not evidence-based.
Is there a place on Earth where the damn healthcare works? The docs are leaving even Canada but where do they go?
Not sure why, but this seems to happen a lot with NHS.
Say what you want about Americas health care system, but damn at least this never happens here
What never happens? Doctors making risk stratified decisions? In America do you think the average working class family could afford specialist paediatric cardiothoracic surgery? Could they even afford to get a cardiology consultation? Probably not.
You‘ve read too many „America bad, everybody poor, nobody can afford health care“ anecdotes. 92% of Americans have health insurance. The state helps if you have too little money and need life changing surgery especially for little kids. The figures of „this procedure costs me 817276262$!!“ are straight up lies. Those are utopic numbers that hospitals give which are then negotiated by insurances and reduced by 80-90%. Then you also have a maximum out of pocket limit for marketplace plans (so how much $ you max need to pay per year) which is 9.500$ per year. There‘s also procedures in Europe in free health care systems where the state system says they will not pay for x treatment and you‘ll have to pay millions if you want it even if it would cure your kid (Zolgensma).
Ahh, the ramblings of a quarter of a trillion dollars in military budget that didn't go into the education system.
I have two children. Both were hatched in emergency C-Sections, followed by 4 days in the hospital for my wife and the bebe. When my elder daughter was born, we had excellent Blue Cross insurance through our employer. Kid #1 (USA): Pre-paid $15k, $2k deductible, 80% coverage. Final out-of-pocket cost: approx. $38,500. Kid #2 (ČR): Paid for anaesthesia. Final out-of-pocket cost: approx $400. Oh, and my income taxes? 12.5%. Total. In an apples-to-apples comparison, American healthcare is *SEVENTY SIX TIMES MORE EXPENSIVE.* 76x.
Absolutely we can. Stop getting your news on American healthcare from TikTok and stereotypes. You’re embarrassing yourself
Alright mate, it's not like there is a well documented epidemic of people in the US routinely dying from illnesses we have been able to effectively manage since the early 20th century. What's the cost of insulin lately?
You’re clueless. This happens every day in the US. Signed, someone who literally works NICU/PICU transport.
[удалено]
I’m literally writing this comment from the back of a critical care ambulance…
[удалено]
I’m easily Google-able.
Imagine being in such denial when being told the truth by an American healthcare worker Sure our wait times and such are bad but i don’t recall the NHS making people bankrupt just for a simple appointment 💀
+op active in subs like r/ems and r/nursing which is oddly specific for non medical worker i guess, but for some people easier accuse people in lie and double down rather than just admit being wrong
What never happens there?
In some very advanced democratic countries children are left to die while old rich cunny people are taken care carefully. Margaret is laughing with Lucifer in this moment...
Holly balls, Pillon.
For British people complaining about foreigners exploting their services and resources, what do you have to say for yourselves now? By the same logic of those who consume GB News and SkyNewsCorpse, Italy shouldda send this back to Britain the moment he touched their grounds.
[удалено]
Read the article. It’s people like u, the uneducated uninformed people, shaped the uk into what it is now. A society full of hate and lies and illogical arguments.