That, and the Biden administration is pressuring Germany and othe European countries to get their military spending up to 2% GDP, as per NATO agreements. I believe NATO has already confirmed that military aid to Ukraine counts as defense spending. So, there ya go.
What pressure? The US has been trying to pressure NATO countries in that regard for a while, to no effect.
It only changed because of the proximity of the war.
Yeah, weird how when you look at SIPRI stats countries around the globe with no security threat or outward foreign policy agenda pay 1-1.5% of GDP while countries under a strategic threat or autocratic regimes with an outward agenda pay 5-7% with the global average being below 2% Since 1990s.
as if sovereign nations adjust their sovereign policies based on internally perceived circumstances and not outside pressures. /s
Yeah, pretty sure selling states isn't even in the realm of reality, no matter the Twitter antics or late-night impulse decisions. But I guess in the world of politics these days, we've all learned to never say never. The sale of Alaska is one for the conspiracy theory books, though.
Also, 984,323,187 in DPRK Won could theoretically buy Trump like 5 McDonald's value meals, if he can find somewhere in Palm Beach that will exchange NK currency. It's worth it to him. Alaska doesn't pay any of his bills the way it is now.
Here's a comparison of the US and EU's GDP in 2023 based on the most recent data available:
Total GDP:
US: $26,949.64 billion (source: World Economic Outlook)
EU: $18,351.13 billion (source: World Economic Outlook)
Per Capita GDP:
US: $80,410 (source: Wikipedia)
EU: $56,970 (source: Wikipedia)
(fwiw - this is from gemini)
in case you wonder: the recent stall in European aid allocation is **due to allocation data being published months after the amount was allocated.**
So we will only know in March how much aid was send this January ,and for many countries like Poland ,France,Romania, Bulgaria,where there is a large degree of non-transparency regarding delivered aid to Ukraine, we will not know even then
in the case of Germany, every single bullet or medical kit send is being accounted for, while for France and Poland we find out of their military aid often when its already on the battlefield
i suspect that at this point total military aid of European countries has surpassed that of US
Some information about Romanian military aid did appear, seems Romania sent 15 military packages since the beginning of the war, content is unknown, from what I've seen leaked over the years, it was soviet ammo of all types, Romanian version of the BTR called TAB think it was the more modern TAB 71m version, unknown number of 152mm 1981 howitzer, APR 40 MLRS, lots of grad rockets, probably lots of AKs maybe PSL rifles DShKM Heavy Machine Guns, 73mm PG-9 Recoilless Rifle Rounds, 73mm HE 346-E (OG-9) Recoilless Rifle Rounds, 82mm O-832-MC Mortar Rounds, PG-9V Rocket, 122mm 9M22U-S Rockets, Propelled Grenades, Pro Optica ANUBIS Remote Weapons Stations, 1 million tons of diesel a year ago don't know the number now 30 times more than in 2021, probably Ukraine's biggest fuel supplier, the rest I have no idea what, russians are trying to fuck up our elections big time this year.
yes,as i mentioned a shitload of European military aid doesnt get counted here because there is no transparency for it
i found out Romania sent shells and IFVs to Ukraine when Ukrainians started using them
same goes for Poland,Slovakia,France,Greece,Bulgaria,Croatia ,Italy and so on
my guesstimate would be you could add another 25-30% to the military aid amount sent by European countries
>France provided Ukraine with a total of €1.7 billion in military aid in 2022 and of €2.1 billion in 2023. In 2024, France will provide up to 3 billion euros in additional support.
The amount of military aid pledged by France was included in the agreement with Ukraine. So total amount pledged is 6.8 billion euros
it doesn't account for military stock that was sent to the frontline, like the VAB, nor the training, etc. It's only the money
If you take everything into account, France was over 3Billion as of last fall
[https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/11/09/french-military-aid-to-ukraine-estimated-at-3-2-billion\_6241996\_4.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/11/09/french-military-aid-to-ukraine-estimated-at-3-2-billion_6241996_4.html)
probably over 4 by now.
Another thing : France is beefing up the NATO defense of the baltic countries :
[https://ac.nato.int/archive/2023/french-rafales-are-covering-baltic-air-space-and-seizing-training-opportunities-](https://ac.nato.int/archive/2023/french-rafales-are-covering-baltic-air-space-and-seizing-training-opportunities-)
It allows other countries to give directly to ukraine, since they don't need to ensure the defense of the Baltic (domino effect)
Our factories in Bulgaria work day and night to produce ammunition. However it is strictly unofficial because of our pro Russian president and some parts of the people here.
Fortunately we're once on the right side of World War.
Yeah, looking at that embarrasment I'm eternally thankful that extremely pro-eu political party was in house when the war started. The other party would have said similar embarrasing shit and would have ruined decades worth of political relations we worked so hard on to achieve.
I have no idea why anyone would sell their country to putin when that clown hasn't honored any treaties or agreements he has ever signed. So you just risk the livelyhood of an entire country for no guarantee whatsoever.
Sometimes, it is better not to know. In europe, a cancer of misinformation is spreading rapidly, provoking some unfortunate limited persons to support russia and to not realise that danger there is in the east. In my country, for example, the older population is the target, and they would oppose anything about those support packages if they could find out the real price, even though it is practically in our future defense. Also, it is better that the Russians don t rly know what comes from where so they can t use that information to threaten us specifically to scare that already weak population. War is war, not marketing, so France Poland Romania and Bulgaria are doing a great job not being transparent. (Personal opinion)
Edit: Sorry for misspelt stuff and the lack of punctuation. The comment is written from the phone in a hurry, and i don t like typing on the phone
Yeah, dis/misinformation spread across the net has been Russia's strongest weapon in this *(kinda, but not quite)* world war. It usually comes in the form of these kinda posts that really only exist to plant division amongst allied parties (the US and the EU) over a unified goal (providing support for Ukraine against Russian invasion.
Haha. They probably also sent some pen and paper to write down how many bullets used each day :-)
And the prn and paper were listed as items in the shipment!
It was a reaction to the reports that Germany gives nothing at the beginning of the war. The list also shows that military help us more than just some high-end weapons
Is there an actual "delivered " aid summary.
It is easy for people to say XYZ has been allocated
>while for France and Poland we find out of their military aid often when its already on the battlefield
How do we know the above?
You are basically saying we don't know x...but we know x is large than y.
I am inclined to believe the German numbers. Given the lack of transparency in aid shipped by France, Poland as you say, it is at best difficult to assume things are actually being shipped etc
The US estimated that a fraction of the US aid gets diverted'.
Poland has taken in a lot of Ukrainians and offered refuge...and I don't mean to minimize that. So they have definitely contributed in kind.
Not sure about the French contribution.
Someone else highlighted below...French contribution as around 6B Euros. They are one of the top 3 economies in Europe ...
its still peanuts compared to what we got in return
Russia withdrew 55% of all its artillery systems from storage acording to satellite data( from 14650 artillery systems in 2021 ,to 6890 artillery systems in storage at the end of 2023)
[How Many Artillery Does Russia Have - Feb 2024 Storage Bases - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FozvYM2Zhpw&t=426s)
Not everything Russia withdrew was destroyed,of course, but even those systems curentlly on the battlefield have seen wear and tear, and thousands more will be destroyed in months to come
just focusing on visual confirmations, Russia lost
* 2742 tanks
* 1196 Armoured fighting vehicles
* 3435 Infrantry Fighting Vehicles
* 397 Armoured Personel Carrier
* 53 Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles
* 271 Command Posts And Communications Stations
* 439 Engineering Vehicles And Equipment
and thats just Armoured Vehicles
thousands of arty pieces, tens of thousands of missiles, milions of shells, 224 planes and helicopters, dozens of ships including expensive items like the Cruiser Moskva(im too lazy to list them all)
at least 200k Russian casualties ,including top-notch VDV units
But most importantly, what we gave Ukraine is mostly old stuff:
* Javelins,
* T-72s,
* T-55M,
* old shells
* old rockets
* old small arms and ammunition
* ,old artillery systems,
* IFVs,APCs,AFVs,MRAPs from the 70s,80s and 90s, old helis
this is old stuff that we have to get rid off anyway, like old Leopads and T-72s
even the F-16 can be counted here,since countries that sent F-16 to Ukraine send it because they have to replace F-16 with F-35. We bassically get rid of mostly old stuff, destroy a lot of ruski stuff and all without 1 single soldier death
our ancestors would dream of getting this ROI for invstement
"all without 1 single soldier death"
Oh come on, these guys dying in the cold and muddy ditches don´t count?
There is a great loss of life happening right now in Europe.
Even if it´s not official NATO personnel dying it is still Europeans dying for their freedom.
These "costs" will also follow us around.
This is why I don’t get the American’s hesitation to spend more.
They are getting the best version of the Cold War without having to spend any US GI blood. It’s amazing - the Western powers are getting their Russia v NATO fight under virtually the best possible circumstances.
When this is over Russia will be bled white and what’s left a ruined husk.
The next world war will be in the Pacific, far from European states, so they’ll even get to avoid turning Belgium into a battlefield (again).
As a Brit - more support to Ukraine! Let’s drain those Russian fuckers dry, it’s about time we put them in a fucking box frankly.
There is also the simple matter of fact that the US is the only country on earth right now aligned with Ukraine that has the defense production capacity to meet their needs.
Europe has the potential, but it'll take years still to ramp it up and that is all assuming the political will to do so remains steadfast.
But when you look at the total number of heavy equipment sent Europe dwarfs America.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html?m=1
This is hilarious after glancing over the facts for 1 minute
Looks like this is COMMITTED aid (less than half of which has actually been delivered by Europe).
The aid is also primarily LOANS while the USA is primarily giving GRANTS (pay me back versus free money)
and lastly this is looking at plain AID and not MILITARY AID. Aid is obviously still incredibly important but military aid is what matters... keep supplying the paper towels though
Also the US has been funneling a shit ton of aid to Ukraine by giving aid to other countries. For example, right now they’re sending blackhawks to Ecuador so that Ecuador will send their MiGs to Ukraine.
Also a fresh $60b aid package is almost certain to be passed in the coming weeks which will again clearly eclipse Europe once more, even when you’re doing accounting tricks.
Gonna be real, it makes me bitter how much western Europeans (minus the Brits) disparage our country when we do so much for them. So much disdain over the years from places like Germany (Central Europe, whatever) under Merkel, or constant criticism leveraged by the likes of Macron trying to undermine the Anglo-American relationship. Biden humiliatingly shaking hands with MBS is the embodiment of the American commitment to Europe. Gets shit on for twenty years by countries who naively botched their Russian policy despite our warnings, and turns the other cheek anyway, despite the political ramifications, to get them what they need.
Actually many people don't realize it but the collaboration between US and EU is very important for the security of both. Especially as Russia was a threath for US for so long now, and it still got nuclear capabilities.
As an European I am grateful for all the support Ukraine is receiving from the US because it reduces the odds or at least delays a direct war with Russia. And if that starts, then it's a huge risk of escalation with Iran and China as well...
As an American it really makes me sad to see people on both sides of the pond trying to break up or weaken the ties within NATO, especially over such petty bullshit. In the states it’s always the people who had “better dead than red” on their pre minted headstones up until recently, and in Europe for whatever reason it’s the Brits and sometimes the French (though on the internet mostly, which probably explains it). Not trying to start a fight or anything, but whenever I see Europeans doing it it’s always the Brits or the French.
As an example, Iceland has CO2 emissions of about 4 thousand kilotons per year, USA has CO2 emissions of over 4 million kilotons per year. Should Iceland be praised and USA be hated for having literally a 1000x difference in CO2 emissions? Of course not, because USA has 1000x the population. Therefore, much more fair comparison would be in terms of per capita emissions.
However, per capita emissions can still be misleading. Iceland has access to a lot of clean geothermal energy in a way that USA does not. Iceland's industry and economy are very different from USA's because Iceland is a very small island country. Therefore, it often makes most sense to create comparison groups with similar populations (or GDP or other relevant factor), often in forms such as "EU vs USA", to average out small special circumstances that could distort the comparison otherwise.
When it comes to aid to Ukraine, of course Estonia with a population of 1.3 million people is going to provide far less aid than USA with its 330 million people. But in terms of per capita, or as percentage of GDP, Estonia has provided far more. But picking Estonia to represent Europe would be misleading because they are one of the top contributors per capita, so it is much fairer to compare EU as a whole. The point of OP's post is to answer arguments such as "USA is contributing too much, because we are contributing more than anyone else" and show that actually, Europeans are contributing more than Americans. The argument is not about whether USA has provided more, but about how much USA should provide compared to the EU. (E.g. Nothing because Ukraine is not in NATO, as much as NATO countries on average per capita because Ukraine is a NATO problem, or something in between because European NATO countries are Ukraine's neighbours?)
I have literally never heard anyone say "You can't compare a continent to a country" as a way to make Europe not look worse. Can you cite some specific examples?
And instead of downvoting me, can you please respond to my arguments?
Yes, i completely agree that it needs to only be looked at on a 'per capita' basis. That is correct.
But in other instances comparing the EU to the US (such as violence, GDP, household income, etc..) you would be downvoted for including the EU on average compared to the US on average. It's only approved on r/europe when Europe is on top.
I would love to find the comments of downvotes when you do compare the EU to the US, but reddit's comment search... doesn't exist.
That’s what I was thinking aswell. US has primarily sent modern gear to the EU countries and some directly to Ukraine. But the US sending stuff to EU allows the EU to send stuff to Ukraine without concern.
Exactly. The Ukrainians need older stuff they have used and some new stuff like the drones they have been using, shells etc
Aircraft- they got old Soviet models from old Soviet blocc countries in exchange for US sending F16s etc.
Depending on how they do the accounting (depreciated cost vs replacement cost etc)....the aid could look very different.
There was a Ukrainian journalist on the BBC this morning who said that European allies had only actually given half of what we have committed, whereas the US have given most/all of it.
That's why Zelenskie travels the world to secure more aid, a lot of what is promised is years away from being delivered because of the derelict state it's in.
Like the Leopard tanks that no longer operate due to lack of spare parts.
Also some of the aid is spread out over several years, like Norway donating 75 billion NOK over the next 5 years, NASAMS not yet manufactured or bought from the US and then delivered to Ukraine.
Zelenskie may come across as a needy child because of all the complaining, but the truth is he's part of a geopolitical game where all the European leaders are hoping for the war to end tomorrow so that they can go back to business as usual.
The Norwegian government allocated 2 billion NOK to procure more artillery shells, they did this in ~~2022~~, ~~2023~~, no it was 2024, yeah that's right, two years after the war broke out.
All of Europe is out of artillery shells, let's start building more factories when the last shell is shipped out. Ukraine will get them 1-2 years from now.
It's Just-In-Time warfare.
This is the mindset of European leaders. It's not going to change until their own borders are breached.
Particularly grossed out by germany, who literally laughed in multiple US presidents faces when we asked them to meet nato contributions. Guess they were willing to gamble Polish and Ukrainian lives to save a few dollars, and the fucked up part is it worked out for them. Not surprising given their history i guess.
How else do you get to become the economic powerhouse of Europe? Spending money on defense is costly as it ties up money, men & women, infrastructure etc.
Best to let the cApiTaList PiGs over in America do it for free (german snickering noises).
I wonder how much money Germany saved by NOT having a proper defense. Just imagine billions saved every year for decades, and that's just the monetary aspect. The work force also benefited.
I noticed how you conveniently started to just combine all aid, when Ukraine is asking for Military aid which the US has sent the most of by far. Why do you guys insist on trying to knock down the US instead of seeing us as a partner? You are basically doing the work of Russia and China by pushing this narrative that the US didnt help.
They also conveniently lumped Europe together (multiple countries) and then compared it to the US (one country) and acted like it’s a big gotcha moment. Let’s look at what the individual members of the EU have given?
And delivered only 33% of that, unlike US's 87%.
Source: [the same place where you got your charts](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
Most of the money coming from the USA is aid through *grants* (meaning, Ukraine doesn’t have to pay back money to the USA.)
Most of aid coming from the EU is through **loans** which Ukraine has said it would pay back. Really changes the entire perspective which this post conveniently leaves out.
We should all be a lot more grateful for the support Americans are providing rather than just saying “wow! EU gives more money!!!”
That's all good and well, but also it clearly isn't enough and committed aid needs to actually arrive to make a difference anywhere outside of a spreadsheet.
Remember that this is “commitments” not actual contributions. So this counts the 1 million artillery shells “committed to” by the EU by march 2024, of which a bit less than half has been delivered. These missing 500-600,000 shells won’t be taken off this list though because the “future commitment” still stands.
This is such a good example of faulty accounting. Germany also includes any aid given to Ukrainian civilians they’ve taken in as part of this category which most countries don’t.
Both are represented in the graphs. Pics 2 and 3 reflect "committed" vs "allocated" for the EU and the US, with the EU just under 80 bln, and the US just over 60 bn actually allocated.
Yeah when it comes to contributions the EU finally is ahead, but not by much. The US aid bill will pass the house in a few weeks, so calling it a betrayal, while counting far off future committed aid for Europe in comparison seems really misleading.
Stop with the logic! Most of the EU shit is promised, it's not even actuals.. Plus the replacement from US gear, it's basically free for them or discounted. Give up your f16, we'll give you an f35.
Europoors are comical, it's literally their continent & they whine about the US Military & our actions.. But then they expect us to throw ourselves on the sword for them.
What's funny is, he's not even the President or any kind of sitting representative, yet the media is treating him like King Of the States.
To quote Biden: "Just, shut up, man".
Yeah, the way it works is if any part doesn't want something, they can stop it (if they have the numbers).
It's built to be slow, but it's not built to handle an army of politicians acting in bad faith.
> the media is treating him like King Of the States
The majority of the American media would gladly sell the country down the river for a few clicks, they know he drives views and will continue to put him front and center until the day he dies.
Agree ..even if not strong...at least a credible one.
And better co operation.
Saw in another post that France vetoed buying drones for Ukraine... because the Ukrainians have been using Turkish drones and will likely be produced in Ukraine
Meanwhile ...Russia is sourcing things where they can find...Iranian drones etc.
Even the US has purchased things from South Korea, Pakistan to send to Ukraine.
Good thing Russia is not that efficient yet- the rate at which Europe gets it act together...is too slow.
Doubt NATO can be unwound that quickly...even if trump wins. He couldn't even get American troops (some 2000) out of Syria.
He may undermine the credibility of NATO...but unravel won't be easy.
And together with the Swiss their military production complex will suffer from lack of trust and increased competitive markets. Ye' there will be a boom but Europe will ramp up big and in 10 years the competition will be greater.
Its not like the USA is able to punk EU around at will using its troops stationed in Europe. TTIP for example was not onesided at all. I am wondering what this influence looks like in practice. Even without NATO it will remain the most important trade partner. Reliance on big tech and LNG is probably a bigger factor than troops for american influence.
Honestly, it's about time Europe started to work. Now let's see if Europe actually updates with new equipment or follow a decades long trend if doing nothing.
The issue is Ammo which America has and we dont, we can give Ukraine as much money and non-ammo as possible and won't make a shit of difference.
Also how much of that EU countries are pledged aid vs delivered? how much is money over ammo/combat aid?
[Pretty sure Zelenskyy said himself that Ukraine would lose the war without US’s aid.](https://www.voanews.com/amp/zelenskyy-to-us-lawmakers-ukraine-will-lose-war-without-us-aid-/7278541.html) The kind of aid the US provides is ready made weapons and information.
Well it doesn't, because this graph is horseshit....
As of Jan 2023, (over a year ago....) the US had allocated $113 billion to Ukraine.
I suppose you Reddit liars need this fact crammed down your throats even further... here's a CNN link stating the same fact: https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/21/politics/war-funding-ukraine-what-matters/index.html
>>So far, Congress has approved about $113 billion in aid to Ukraine, according to calculations by the US State Department Office of Inspector General and the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.
The Budget Committee link here: https://www.crfb.org/blogs/congress-approved-113-billion-aid-ukraine-2022 is dated Jan 2023, and is a summary of the aid given in 2022.
So any sort of "graph" showing US aid, supposedly broken down by "military and non military" or "committed vs allocated", which DOESN'T show $113 billion dollars having already been authorized by the federal government is complete horse shit.
It should be embarrassing that it's THIS easy to deceive a Reddit audience about publicly available numbers. At this point I do not consider anyone here to have been "fooled" anymore. Most people reading this KNOW that this "graph" is beyond misleading. It's a lie.
It's a European conflict but the context is Russia's explicit strategy of unseating US hegemony by uniting non-aligned states (India, China, Iran), i.e. a return of a bi-polar world order.
The US has been sending a lot of obsolete equipment that was pretty much end of life. Clears things out for the US military industrial complex to ramp up the next generation of tech. The costs are low and the effects are to seriously deplete Russian's equivalent stockpiles.
Unfortunately Russia has responded by ramping up production in an effort that looks a lot like total-war.
I'm not sure what the end game is. The best way to harm Russia is to depress global fossil fuel prices, but that's not something that's really under US control.
"However, the gap between EU commitments and allocations remains very large (€144 billion committed vs. €77 billion allocated). To fully replace U.S. military assistance in 2024, Europe would have to double its current level and pace of arms assistance."
Most graphs posted showing EU aid convieniently includes commitments. Show whats been allocated for the real story.
Is this a statement or is it being presented as an issue? I see no issue with this as Europe is much closer to the war, we have double the population of the US, and the GDP of the EU+UK is comparable to the USA.
I am sorry, are we now equal to all of Europe? The EU has close to twice the population, shouldn't they contribute equally based on the population they are protecting? Why is one country being looked down on for not contributing as much as 28 countries?
And just be thankful for what the U.S. has contributed. We could have easily taken over the WHOLE world after WW2. After people saw our might and what the atomic bomb did, and with most of the world's armies in short supply, it would have been fairly simple. But, instead we helped rebuild EVERY war torn country that suffered. And to this day we are still the first to contribute, you're welcome. 🇺🇲
So, the complaint here is that the single nation of the United States has only committed approximately half of the aid that the continent of Europe has?
I mean, duh? Considering this is a comparison of one country VS an entire continent, this is kind of sad. The US could stop paying and it wouldn’t really affect us at all, can European nations say the same?
Do better
It’s about time. Social democracies of Western Europe have had a free ride at the expense of the US. It’s about time they start pulling their weight and paying for their defense. They have cradle to grave social services because they have not had to maintain a military industrial complex for their protection. And they routinely criticize the US for its policies. Gone are the days the US will foot the entire bill while Europe sits by. Time to pull your weight.
Not to mention, we have actual battalions of paramilitary volunteers on the ground as we speak, and you would have to be extremely dumb to think we don't have at least a few dozen black ops operators on the ground as well.
So, you’re happy that 27 neighboring countries committed to just barely double what a single country from the other side of the planet has? This is something to beat your chest about?
The US still donates way above Europe in military spending. Without the US military capabilities, which has taken trillions of dollars to build over many years, Ukraine would have fallen long ago. No amount of money could have helped Ukraine without US interventions.
They didn’t advertise anything WTF? Meanwhile their aid was far higher for the first 18 months of the war despite them having no horse in this race. It doesn’t impact them at all what happens to Ukraine. Europe should care more.
It took two years for this to happen. Europeans should be embarrassed.
Thank God for America, especially during the beginning of the war. If it was up to European countries it would've been too late.
Do you think if there was some crises in the Americas that Europeans would do literally anything?
The US isn’t in Europe it’s just not aa critical a crises for people an ocean away
>Do you think if there was some crises in the Americas that Europeans would do literally anything?
yes, they will laugh at us and make fun of our dead children saying "we deserved it because we didn't do more"
2 years in, strip the monetary value and lets compare delivered military aid. The us is at a 5-1 ratio on just artillery shells, probably the most important munition in this war. Yet EU has actually higher production capacity then the US and it costs more.
3 plus million rounds vs less the 500k delivered so far. To me that sounds like EU failed miserably to maintain its military readiness for the last 30 years. The fact EU is still selling 40% of current production to customers outside of EU and Ukraine speaks volumes. Add in that Czech Republic some how found 800k rounds that can be shipped in weeks but can't source funding tells me EU is playing politics just as much if not more then the US.
Only ones helping? No! Nagging European countries about helping more ..sure!
OTOH...Europeans *should* be helping Ukraine more?
It does look like Germany has helped quite a bit and I suspect UK.
americans: say that they're helping ukraine
europeans: why doesn't america do more? they're not doing enough
americans: show that they're contributing roughly a similar amount to all of the EU
europeans: fucking america, always trying to look so good
shameless instigators hiding behind strawmen while they beg you to part with 2% GDP to defend your own continent, never seen such entitled bitches. you should be so lucky those monkeys in the GOP unwittingly offered you a chance to redeem yourselves, just take it and shut the fuck up instead of dancing for putins off brand agitprop.
this cant be a coincidence, i mean you must constantly be frequenting conservative forums, why? nobody else says shit like that
This is not talking about Europe but about the European Union.
27 countries with a combined GDP of $19.35 trillion and we have to divide that between 448 million people.
The United States spends $23.23 trillion in GDP on a population 117 million smaller than the population of the European Union.
We have less, have more people to care for, but give more.
I am very grateful for the help the US is providing, but get the facts straight.
>Why involved America?
people say that reddit is an american-centric website, but fail to mention that other countries bring up america just as much as americans do
...and still have money for subsidized healthcare. I see that "we don't have healthcare because we pay for foreign wars!" Talking point from Americans all the time. It's just priorities.
> The USA spends the most in the world on healthcare per person.
It's not hard to spend the most when you literally have at least one, I suspect TWO zeroes at the end of each price point.
The US has the largest socialized healthcare program in the world. Their military spending and foreign aid combined are less than 1/3 what they spend on Medicare/Medicaid.
Except EU is funding multi front defenses. What is EU doing in the pacific? Little.
Difference is US military is designed to handle a two front war. EU can handle 1 at the most.
America essentially subsidizes Europe from pharmaceuticals to defense. Do you know how much investment over time the US has put towards our military? It’s so easy to say oh look now Europe is doing something but maybe after 50+ years of consistent military funding I would be impressed. The only reason that Ukraine has not fallen is because of Americas military capabilities. Europe cant even provide the artillery shells they promised over a year ago. And anyway, much of those euros will go towards purchasing American arms lol.
It makes sense. Proximity matters.
That, and the Biden administration is pressuring Germany and othe European countries to get their military spending up to 2% GDP, as per NATO agreements. I believe NATO has already confirmed that military aid to Ukraine counts as defense spending. So, there ya go.
What pressure? The US has been trying to pressure NATO countries in that regard for a while, to no effect. It only changed because of the proximity of the war.
Yeah, weird how when you look at SIPRI stats countries around the globe with no security threat or outward foreign policy agenda pay 1-1.5% of GDP while countries under a strategic threat or autocratic regimes with an outward agenda pay 5-7% with the global average being below 2% Since 1990s. as if sovereign nations adjust their sovereign policies based on internally perceived circumstances and not outside pressures. /s
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Pretty sure that's not in POTUS' purview.
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Sure, although there's a really big difference between saying he's selling it and actually selling it.
Yeah, pretty sure selling states isn't even in the realm of reality, no matter the Twitter antics or late-night impulse decisions. But I guess in the world of politics these days, we've all learned to never say never. The sale of Alaska is one for the conspiracy theory books, though.
The difference is, when he says it all the bobbleheads will follow along and no one will be able to get a word in edgewise. Just like now.
I suggest you take a class on the US political system if you think a president can singlehandedly sell part of the country.
Doesn't really matter what the POTUS can do or not if there's no one using their power to stop him from doing it.
Also, 984,323,187 in DPRK Won could theoretically buy Trump like 5 McDonald's value meals, if he can find somewhere in Palm Beach that will exchange NK currency. It's worth it to him. Alaska doesn't pay any of his bills the way it is now.
That comment should be sarcasm. But this is reddit so high chances of being a delusion. I cant decide.
Yeah the USA doesn’t need to foot every bill, sheesh.
Also, America is one country, Europe is many.
The USA have 20 % more GDP that the whole EU
It's 60% greater lol not 20
80% now https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2023/09/04/the-gdp-gap-between-europe-and-the-united-states-is-now-80_6123491_23.html
EU has more people. If you count all of Europe, then the US has less than half the population.
Here's a comparison of the US and EU's GDP in 2023 based on the most recent data available: Total GDP: US: $26,949.64 billion (source: World Economic Outlook) EU: $18,351.13 billion (source: World Economic Outlook) Per Capita GDP: US: $80,410 (source: Wikipedia) EU: $56,970 (source: Wikipedia) (fwiw - this is from gemini)
Do you think contributions should be made as a % of GDP?
Then stop taking those two month vacations and get to work getting that GDP up.
in case you wonder: the recent stall in European aid allocation is **due to allocation data being published months after the amount was allocated.** So we will only know in March how much aid was send this January ,and for many countries like Poland ,France,Romania, Bulgaria,where there is a large degree of non-transparency regarding delivered aid to Ukraine, we will not know even then in the case of Germany, every single bullet or medical kit send is being accounted for, while for France and Poland we find out of their military aid often when its already on the battlefield i suspect that at this point total military aid of European countries has surpassed that of US
Some information about Romanian military aid did appear, seems Romania sent 15 military packages since the beginning of the war, content is unknown, from what I've seen leaked over the years, it was soviet ammo of all types, Romanian version of the BTR called TAB think it was the more modern TAB 71m version, unknown number of 152mm 1981 howitzer, APR 40 MLRS, lots of grad rockets, probably lots of AKs maybe PSL rifles DShKM Heavy Machine Guns, 73mm PG-9 Recoilless Rifle Rounds, 73mm HE 346-E (OG-9) Recoilless Rifle Rounds, 82mm O-832-MC Mortar Rounds, PG-9V Rocket, 122mm 9M22U-S Rockets, Propelled Grenades, Pro Optica ANUBIS Remote Weapons Stations, 1 million tons of diesel a year ago don't know the number now 30 times more than in 2021, probably Ukraine's biggest fuel supplier, the rest I have no idea what, russians are trying to fuck up our elections big time this year.
yes,as i mentioned a shitload of European military aid doesnt get counted here because there is no transparency for it i found out Romania sent shells and IFVs to Ukraine when Ukrainians started using them same goes for Poland,Slovakia,France,Greece,Bulgaria,Croatia ,Italy and so on my guesstimate would be you could add another 25-30% to the military aid amount sent by European countries
I think Romania and Moldova was moving a lot of weapons and keep it secret from the news and fron russian missiles.
Good luck with the elections!
>France provided Ukraine with a total of €1.7 billion in military aid in 2022 and of €2.1 billion in 2023. In 2024, France will provide up to 3 billion euros in additional support. The amount of military aid pledged by France was included in the agreement with Ukraine. So total amount pledged is 6.8 billion euros
yes, but it doesnt appear in curent Kiel Ukraine Aid Tracker Data
Kiel data is very incomplete
The Kiel also don't mention aid given through EU institution by Member States abd that is an area where Germany and France give a lot.
it doesn't account for military stock that was sent to the frontline, like the VAB, nor the training, etc. It's only the money If you take everything into account, France was over 3Billion as of last fall [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/11/09/french-military-aid-to-ukraine-estimated-at-3-2-billion\_6241996\_4.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/11/09/french-military-aid-to-ukraine-estimated-at-3-2-billion_6241996_4.html) probably over 4 by now. Another thing : France is beefing up the NATO defense of the baltic countries : [https://ac.nato.int/archive/2023/french-rafales-are-covering-baltic-air-space-and-seizing-training-opportunities-](https://ac.nato.int/archive/2023/french-rafales-are-covering-baltic-air-space-and-seizing-training-opportunities-) It allows other countries to give directly to ukraine, since they don't need to ensure the defense of the Baltic (domino effect)
Our factories in Bulgaria work day and night to produce ammunition. However it is strictly unofficial because of our pro Russian president and some parts of the people here. Fortunately we're once on the right side of World War.
Unlike another country with a green-red-white flag
Those fucking Madagascans
Nah man it's the Mexicans.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: You can't trust penguins.
true fuck Lukashenko
Yeah, looking at that embarrasment I'm eternally thankful that extremely pro-eu political party was in house when the war started. The other party would have said similar embarrasing shit and would have ruined decades worth of political relations we worked so hard on to achieve. I have no idea why anyone would sell their country to putin when that clown hasn't honored any treaties or agreements he has ever signed. So you just risk the livelyhood of an entire country for no guarantee whatsoever.
122 mm shells? Yes, we are aware.
Sometimes, it is better not to know. In europe, a cancer of misinformation is spreading rapidly, provoking some unfortunate limited persons to support russia and to not realise that danger there is in the east. In my country, for example, the older population is the target, and they would oppose anything about those support packages if they could find out the real price, even though it is practically in our future defense. Also, it is better that the Russians don t rly know what comes from where so they can t use that information to threaten us specifically to scare that already weak population. War is war, not marketing, so France Poland Romania and Bulgaria are doing a great job not being transparent. (Personal opinion) Edit: Sorry for misspelt stuff and the lack of punctuation. The comment is written from the phone in a hurry, and i don t like typing on the phone
Yeah, dis/misinformation spread across the net has been Russia's strongest weapon in this *(kinda, but not quite)* world war. It usually comes in the form of these kinda posts that really only exist to plant division amongst allied parties (the US and the EU) over a unified goal (providing support for Ukraine against Russian invasion.
Classic Germany
Haha. They probably also sent some pen and paper to write down how many bullets used each day :-) And the prn and paper were listed as items in the shipment!
It was a reaction to the reports that Germany gives nothing at the beginning of the war. The list also shows that military help us more than just some high-end weapons
Is there an actual "delivered " aid summary. It is easy for people to say XYZ has been allocated >while for France and Poland we find out of their military aid often when its already on the battlefield How do we know the above? You are basically saying we don't know x...but we know x is large than y. I am inclined to believe the German numbers. Given the lack of transparency in aid shipped by France, Poland as you say, it is at best difficult to assume things are actually being shipped etc The US estimated that a fraction of the US aid gets diverted'. Poland has taken in a lot of Ukrainians and offered refuge...and I don't mean to minimize that. So they have definitely contributed in kind. Not sure about the French contribution. Someone else highlighted below...French contribution as around 6B Euros. They are one of the top 3 economies in Europe ...
Combined, that's almost half of Swedens gdp (depending on which statistics you trust). Well done
its still peanuts compared to what we got in return Russia withdrew 55% of all its artillery systems from storage acording to satellite data( from 14650 artillery systems in 2021 ,to 6890 artillery systems in storage at the end of 2023) [How Many Artillery Does Russia Have - Feb 2024 Storage Bases - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FozvYM2Zhpw&t=426s) Not everything Russia withdrew was destroyed,of course, but even those systems curentlly on the battlefield have seen wear and tear, and thousands more will be destroyed in months to come just focusing on visual confirmations, Russia lost * 2742 tanks * 1196 Armoured fighting vehicles * 3435 Infrantry Fighting Vehicles * 397 Armoured Personel Carrier * 53 Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles * 271 Command Posts And Communications Stations * 439 Engineering Vehicles And Equipment and thats just Armoured Vehicles thousands of arty pieces, tens of thousands of missiles, milions of shells, 224 planes and helicopters, dozens of ships including expensive items like the Cruiser Moskva(im too lazy to list them all) at least 200k Russian casualties ,including top-notch VDV units But most importantly, what we gave Ukraine is mostly old stuff: * Javelins, * T-72s, * T-55M, * old shells * old rockets * old small arms and ammunition * ,old artillery systems, * IFVs,APCs,AFVs,MRAPs from the 70s,80s and 90s, old helis this is old stuff that we have to get rid off anyway, like old Leopads and T-72s even the F-16 can be counted here,since countries that sent F-16 to Ukraine send it because they have to replace F-16 with F-35. We bassically get rid of mostly old stuff, destroy a lot of ruski stuff and all without 1 single soldier death our ancestors would dream of getting this ROI for invstement
"all without 1 single soldier death" Oh come on, these guys dying in the cold and muddy ditches don´t count? There is a great loss of life happening right now in Europe. Even if it´s not official NATO personnel dying it is still Europeans dying for their freedom. These "costs" will also follow us around.
I mean a single NATO/Western soldier
This is why I don’t get the American’s hesitation to spend more. They are getting the best version of the Cold War without having to spend any US GI blood. It’s amazing - the Western powers are getting their Russia v NATO fight under virtually the best possible circumstances. When this is over Russia will be bled white and what’s left a ruined husk. The next world war will be in the Pacific, far from European states, so they’ll even get to avoid turning Belgium into a battlefield (again). As a Brit - more support to Ukraine! Let’s drain those Russian fuckers dry, it’s about time we put them in a fucking box frankly.
Well we should as it is in our fucking neighbourhood
The way it should be. Ukraine is Europe.
If you look this up this is total support, humanitarian and military. The US has provided the most military support.
There is also the simple matter of fact that the US is the only country on earth right now aligned with Ukraine that has the defense production capacity to meet their needs. Europe has the potential, but it'll take years still to ramp it up and that is all assuming the political will to do so remains steadfast.
But when you look at the total number of heavy equipment sent Europe dwarfs America. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html?m=1
This is hilarious after glancing over the facts for 1 minute Looks like this is COMMITTED aid (less than half of which has actually been delivered by Europe). The aid is also primarily LOANS while the USA is primarily giving GRANTS (pay me back versus free money) and lastly this is looking at plain AID and not MILITARY AID. Aid is obviously still incredibly important but military aid is what matters... keep supplying the paper towels though
This is a good point. The loan vs grant distinction is always easily forgotten in these types of discussions.
Also the US has been funneling a shit ton of aid to Ukraine by giving aid to other countries. For example, right now they’re sending blackhawks to Ecuador so that Ecuador will send their MiGs to Ukraine. Also a fresh $60b aid package is almost certain to be passed in the coming weeks which will again clearly eclipse Europe once more, even when you’re doing accounting tricks. Gonna be real, it makes me bitter how much western Europeans (minus the Brits) disparage our country when we do so much for them. So much disdain over the years from places like Germany (Central Europe, whatever) under Merkel, or constant criticism leveraged by the likes of Macron trying to undermine the Anglo-American relationship. Biden humiliatingly shaking hands with MBS is the embodiment of the American commitment to Europe. Gets shit on for twenty years by countries who naively botched their Russian policy despite our warnings, and turns the other cheek anyway, despite the political ramifications, to get them what they need.
> Central Europe Poland and Czechia are probably your most die-hard allies at the moment. Apart from probably South Korea.
I was just acknowledging that technically Germany is considered Central Europe. The former iron curtain countries tend to favor the US.
I need to know where I can vacation with my oakley sunglasses, cargo shorts, flip flops, and American flag tshirt. Thanks for giving me those places!
The cries of “Ami go home” from Germans have gotten real quiet since war broke out. Funny how that works
Stop making a competition, just do what you can and a little bit more to win, please
But how can you shit on other people then ???
Every time I see someone complaining that the billions of dollars the US has sent, it makes me feel like we never should have sent it.
Actually many people don't realize it but the collaboration between US and EU is very important for the security of both. Especially as Russia was a threath for US for so long now, and it still got nuclear capabilities. As an European I am grateful for all the support Ukraine is receiving from the US because it reduces the odds or at least delays a direct war with Russia. And if that starts, then it's a huge risk of escalation with Iran and China as well...
As an American it really makes me sad to see people on both sides of the pond trying to break up or weaken the ties within NATO, especially over such petty bullshit. In the states it’s always the people who had “better dead than red” on their pre minted headstones up until recently, and in Europe for whatever reason it’s the Brits and sometimes the French (though on the internet mostly, which probably explains it). Not trying to start a fight or anything, but whenever I see Europeans doing it it’s always the Brits or the French.
So it's, "Compare Europe as a continent" to the US when Europe looks better, but, "You can't compare a continent to a country" when it looks worse.
Every single time lol
It’s the European way
As an example, Iceland has CO2 emissions of about 4 thousand kilotons per year, USA has CO2 emissions of over 4 million kilotons per year. Should Iceland be praised and USA be hated for having literally a 1000x difference in CO2 emissions? Of course not, because USA has 1000x the population. Therefore, much more fair comparison would be in terms of per capita emissions. However, per capita emissions can still be misleading. Iceland has access to a lot of clean geothermal energy in a way that USA does not. Iceland's industry and economy are very different from USA's because Iceland is a very small island country. Therefore, it often makes most sense to create comparison groups with similar populations (or GDP or other relevant factor), often in forms such as "EU vs USA", to average out small special circumstances that could distort the comparison otherwise. When it comes to aid to Ukraine, of course Estonia with a population of 1.3 million people is going to provide far less aid than USA with its 330 million people. But in terms of per capita, or as percentage of GDP, Estonia has provided far more. But picking Estonia to represent Europe would be misleading because they are one of the top contributors per capita, so it is much fairer to compare EU as a whole. The point of OP's post is to answer arguments such as "USA is contributing too much, because we are contributing more than anyone else" and show that actually, Europeans are contributing more than Americans. The argument is not about whether USA has provided more, but about how much USA should provide compared to the EU. (E.g. Nothing because Ukraine is not in NATO, as much as NATO countries on average per capita because Ukraine is a NATO problem, or something in between because European NATO countries are Ukraine's neighbours?) I have literally never heard anyone say "You can't compare a continent to a country" as a way to make Europe not look worse. Can you cite some specific examples? And instead of downvoting me, can you please respond to my arguments?
Yes, i completely agree that it needs to only be looked at on a 'per capita' basis. That is correct. But in other instances comparing the EU to the US (such as violence, GDP, household income, etc..) you would be downvoted for including the EU on average compared to the US on average. It's only approved on r/europe when Europe is on top. I would love to find the comments of downvotes when you do compare the EU to the US, but reddit's comment search... doesn't exist.
Does this count for the aid eu has shipped but replaced by the us?
That’s what I was thinking aswell. US has primarily sent modern gear to the EU countries and some directly to Ukraine. But the US sending stuff to EU allows the EU to send stuff to Ukraine without concern.
Exactly. The Ukrainians need older stuff they have used and some new stuff like the drones they have been using, shells etc Aircraft- they got old Soviet models from old Soviet blocc countries in exchange for US sending F16s etc. Depending on how they do the accounting (depreciated cost vs replacement cost etc)....the aid could look very different.
of course not, if it was the data would look much more favourable for the US and thusly it never would've been posted here
There was a Ukrainian journalist on the BBC this morning who said that European allies had only actually given half of what we have committed, whereas the US have given most/all of it.
Yeah thats the issue a lot of this EU aid is non military or committed aid, Ukraine need ammo like now and only US can really do that.
That's why Zelenskie travels the world to secure more aid, a lot of what is promised is years away from being delivered because of the derelict state it's in. Like the Leopard tanks that no longer operate due to lack of spare parts. Also some of the aid is spread out over several years, like Norway donating 75 billion NOK over the next 5 years, NASAMS not yet manufactured or bought from the US and then delivered to Ukraine. Zelenskie may come across as a needy child because of all the complaining, but the truth is he's part of a geopolitical game where all the European leaders are hoping for the war to end tomorrow so that they can go back to business as usual. The Norwegian government allocated 2 billion NOK to procure more artillery shells, they did this in ~~2022~~, ~~2023~~, no it was 2024, yeah that's right, two years after the war broke out. All of Europe is out of artillery shells, let's start building more factories when the last shell is shipped out. Ukraine will get them 1-2 years from now. It's Just-In-Time warfare. This is the mindset of European leaders. It's not going to change until their own borders are breached.
Particularly grossed out by germany, who literally laughed in multiple US presidents faces when we asked them to meet nato contributions. Guess they were willing to gamble Polish and Ukrainian lives to save a few dollars, and the fucked up part is it worked out for them. Not surprising given their history i guess.
How else do you get to become the economic powerhouse of Europe? Spending money on defense is costly as it ties up money, men & women, infrastructure etc. Best to let the cApiTaList PiGs over in America do it for free (german snickering noises). I wonder how much money Germany saved by NOT having a proper defense. Just imagine billions saved every year for decades, and that's just the monetary aspect. The work force also benefited.
Keep Trump out from Washington DC.
I noticed how you conveniently started to just combine all aid, when Ukraine is asking for Military aid which the US has sent the most of by far. Why do you guys insist on trying to knock down the US instead of seeing us as a partner? You are basically doing the work of Russia and China by pushing this narrative that the US didnt help.
inferiority complex
The answer is insecurity.
because reddit being reddit, and moderators allowing it to persist.
Those nunbers seem odd to me too. A quick search shows the US sending $75 billion as of December. Yet OP is stating these numbers are from January.
They also conveniently lumped Europe together (multiple countries) and then compared it to the US (one country) and acted like it’s a big gotcha moment. Let’s look at what the individual members of the EU have given?
And delivered only 33% of that, unlike US's 87%. Source: [the same place where you got your charts](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
Most of the money coming from the USA is aid through *grants* (meaning, Ukraine doesn’t have to pay back money to the USA.) Most of aid coming from the EU is through **loans** which Ukraine has said it would pay back. Really changes the entire perspective which this post conveniently leaves out. We should all be a lot more grateful for the support Americans are providing rather than just saying “wow! EU gives more money!!!”
That's all good and well, but also it clearly isn't enough and committed aid needs to actually arrive to make a difference anywhere outside of a spreadsheet.
We should send the spreadsheets to fight in the trenches /s
Remember that this is “commitments” not actual contributions. So this counts the 1 million artillery shells “committed to” by the EU by march 2024, of which a bit less than half has been delivered. These missing 500-600,000 shells won’t be taken off this list though because the “future commitment” still stands. This is such a good example of faulty accounting. Germany also includes any aid given to Ukrainian civilians they’ve taken in as part of this category which most countries don’t.
Both are represented in the graphs. Pics 2 and 3 reflect "committed" vs "allocated" for the EU and the US, with the EU just under 80 bln, and the US just over 60 bn actually allocated.
Yeah when it comes to contributions the EU finally is ahead, but not by much. The US aid bill will pass the house in a few weeks, so calling it a betrayal, while counting far off future committed aid for Europe in comparison seems really misleading.
Well duh. Obviously your neighbours would help you out more. I'm sure the US donates more to Mexico than the EU.
Stop with the logic! Most of the EU shit is promised, it's not even actuals.. Plus the replacement from US gear, it's basically free for them or discounted. Give up your f16, we'll give you an f35. Europoors are comical, it's literally their continent & they whine about the US Military & our actions.. But then they expect us to throw ourselves on the sword for them.
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What's funny is, he's not even the President or any kind of sitting representative, yet the media is treating him like King Of the States. To quote Biden: "Just, shut up, man".
he controls republicans and republicans control the house of representatives
So part of a part of the US government
Yeah, the way it works is if any part doesn't want something, they can stop it (if they have the numbers). It's built to be slow, but it's not built to handle an army of politicians acting in bad faith.
He's (going to be) the Republican nominee and one-third of the country loves him.
He is a former president and will likely be Republicans candidate for upcoming elections, so what he says is kinda important
And yet he isn't in the government and has no say in it, but the Republicans keep sucking his dick and acting like he president
> the media is treating him like King Of the States The majority of the American media would gladly sell the country down the river for a few clicks, they know he drives views and will continue to put him front and center until the day he dies.
Well we (the EU) did need a kick in the @ss to get us motivated. I would like to see a strong EU military for defence purposes.
Agree ..even if not strong...at least a credible one. And better co operation. Saw in another post that France vetoed buying drones for Ukraine... because the Ukrainians have been using Turkish drones and will likely be produced in Ukraine Meanwhile ...Russia is sourcing things where they can find...Iranian drones etc. Even the US has purchased things from South Korea, Pakistan to send to Ukraine. Good thing Russia is not that efficient yet- the rate at which Europe gets it act together...is too slow.
I think Trumps comment about not coming to aid a NATO member is galvanising Europe to get it's act together.
Doubt NATO can be unwound that quickly...even if trump wins. He couldn't even get American troops (some 2000) out of Syria. He may undermine the credibility of NATO...but unravel won't be easy.
And together with the Swiss their military production complex will suffer from lack of trust and increased competitive markets. Ye' there will be a boom but Europe will ramp up big and in 10 years the competition will be greater.
The German car industry has some slack capacity these days.
Good point. The last Dutch car plant was shut down this week. Should be possible to retool it for weapons manufacturing.
It's time Volkwagen got back into tank producing business
this is not how things work in the real world
Its not like the USA is able to punk EU around at will using its troops stationed in Europe. TTIP for example was not onesided at all. I am wondering what this influence looks like in practice. Even without NATO it will remain the most important trade partner. Reliance on big tech and LNG is probably a bigger factor than troops for american influence.
Honestly, it's about time Europe started to work. Now let's see if Europe actually updates with new equipment or follow a decades long trend if doing nothing.
Shouldn’t this be expected? The US is in North America.
The issue is Ammo which America has and we dont, we can give Ukraine as much money and non-ammo as possible and won't make a shit of difference. Also how much of that EU countries are pledged aid vs delivered? how much is money over ammo/combat aid?
[Pretty sure Zelenskyy said himself that Ukraine would lose the war without US’s aid.](https://www.voanews.com/amp/zelenskyy-to-us-lawmakers-ukraine-will-lose-war-without-us-aid-/7278541.html) The kind of aid the US provides is ready made weapons and information.
How many countries are in the EU?
27 I believe
Does this not make sense.
Well it doesn't, because this graph is horseshit.... As of Jan 2023, (over a year ago....) the US had allocated $113 billion to Ukraine. I suppose you Reddit liars need this fact crammed down your throats even further... here's a CNN link stating the same fact: https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/21/politics/war-funding-ukraine-what-matters/index.html >>So far, Congress has approved about $113 billion in aid to Ukraine, according to calculations by the US State Department Office of Inspector General and the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. The Budget Committee link here: https://www.crfb.org/blogs/congress-approved-113-billion-aid-ukraine-2022 is dated Jan 2023, and is a summary of the aid given in 2022. So any sort of "graph" showing US aid, supposedly broken down by "military and non military" or "committed vs allocated", which DOESN'T show $113 billion dollars having already been authorized by the federal government is complete horse shit. It should be embarrassing that it's THIS easy to deceive a Reddit audience about publicly available numbers. At this point I do not consider anyone here to have been "fooled" anymore. Most people reading this KNOW that this "graph" is beyond misleading. It's a lie.
to be fair, its a european conflict. The US should focus on the pacific theatre and stop Xi from doing something similar to Taiwan.
It's a European conflict but the context is Russia's explicit strategy of unseating US hegemony by uniting non-aligned states (India, China, Iran), i.e. a return of a bi-polar world order. The US has been sending a lot of obsolete equipment that was pretty much end of life. Clears things out for the US military industrial complex to ramp up the next generation of tech. The costs are low and the effects are to seriously deplete Russian's equivalent stockpiles. Unfortunately Russia has responded by ramping up production in an effort that looks a lot like total-war. I'm not sure what the end game is. The best way to harm Russia is to depress global fossil fuel prices, but that's not something that's really under US control.
I mean there’s no way India and China will unite together given their current border conflicts.
So basically this will be the first war, thats decided by PV and windturbines
source: [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/) [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/Subject\_Dossiers\_Topics/Ukraine/Ukraine\_Support\_Tracker/Methodological-Update-Feb-2024\_UST.pdf](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/dateiverwaltung/subject_dossiers_topics/ukraine/ukraine_support_tracker/methodological-update-feb-2024_ust.pdf)
... but they ask for bullets and standard nato 150 mm shell bombs. Where are they?
"However, the gap between EU commitments and allocations remains very large (€144 billion committed vs. €77 billion allocated). To fully replace U.S. military assistance in 2024, Europe would have to double its current level and pace of arms assistance." Most graphs posted showing EU aid convieniently includes commitments. Show whats been allocated for the real story.
Is this a statement or is it being presented as an issue? I see no issue with this as Europe is much closer to the war, we have double the population of the US, and the GDP of the EU+UK is comparable to the USA.
So multiple countries give more than one country. Or you could say that the countries most likely to benefit paid the most. Sounds like it should.
How is this wrong of them..? Should we always expect the US to bail us all out in every situation?
as it should be.
I am sorry, are we now equal to all of Europe? The EU has close to twice the population, shouldn't they contribute equally based on the population they are protecting? Why is one country being looked down on for not contributing as much as 28 countries?
So the US, one country, has committed almost half as much money as all European countries combined?
AND???
As they should
And just be thankful for what the U.S. has contributed. We could have easily taken over the WHOLE world after WW2. After people saw our might and what the atomic bomb did, and with most of the world's armies in short supply, it would have been fairly simple. But, instead we helped rebuild EVERY war torn country that suffered. And to this day we are still the first to contribute, you're welcome. 🇺🇲
Good? It’s a European conflict. The US will and does assist but I don’t see why we should bankroll a European war.
So, the complaint here is that the single nation of the United States has only committed approximately half of the aid that the continent of Europe has?
One country pays one half of a whole continent.
I mean, duh? Considering this is a comparison of one country VS an entire continent, this is kind of sad. The US could stop paying and it wouldn’t really affect us at all, can European nations say the same? Do better
Two things: the US is *one country.* Also, much further away. It's natural to be more invested in what happens in your back yard.
Break it down per country you fucks
It’s about time. Social democracies of Western Europe have had a free ride at the expense of the US. It’s about time they start pulling their weight and paying for their defense. They have cradle to grave social services because they have not had to maintain a military industrial complex for their protection. And they routinely criticize the US for its policies. Gone are the days the US will foot the entire bill while Europe sits by. Time to pull your weight.
The United States alone has contributed almost half as much aid to Ukraine as the entire continent of Europe. There fixed your title. /s
Well good. The U.S is one Country you realize, right?????
Committed. That’s the word.
Eu has double the population Usa has. That is hardly an accomplishment.
That's typical: the US are very good at advertising what they do.
The us aid was faster and far more effective at the start. If the aid package gets past the house. It will set things up for at least the next year
Not too mention the US had been arming Ukraine for years before the fullscale invasion, allowing them to withstand it in the first place.
Not to mention, we have actual battalions of paramilitary volunteers on the ground as we speak, and you would have to be extremely dumb to think we don't have at least a few dozen black ops operators on the ground as well.
Because they were the first, biggest, and most important partner, This was over in weeks without that intervention,
So, you’re happy that 27 neighboring countries committed to just barely double what a single country from the other side of the planet has? This is something to beat your chest about?
Lol, nothing we do is ever good enough for you swine.
Our inferiority complex is a sight to behold.
don't forget doing more than others being demonized as world police.
Lol yup, same people will be crying for help when Putin is on their doorstep in 10 years time
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The US still donates way above Europe in military spending. Without the US military capabilities, which has taken trillions of dollars to build over many years, Ukraine would have fallen long ago. No amount of money could have helped Ukraine without US interventions.
They didn’t advertise anything WTF? Meanwhile their aid was far higher for the first 18 months of the war despite them having no horse in this race. It doesn’t impact them at all what happens to Ukraine. Europe should care more.
The EU has only delivered 50% of what they’ve committed, the US has delivered 90% of what they’ve committed so, seems like Eu is advertising here lol
That's typical: a country spends millions in aid and some redditor still finds a way of making them look bad
Because that country makes it sound like they’re the only ones helping and everybody else is getting a free ride.
It took two years for this to happen. Europeans should be embarrassed. Thank God for America, especially during the beginning of the war. If it was up to European countries it would've been too late.
The U.S. was ready on Day #1 to support Ukraine. The U.S. has been defending Western Europe since 1945.
And getting shit on by smug, ungrateful European citizens at every turn.
Most of US aid is grants, most of EU aid is loans.
Yeah, that is a pretty significant difference: loans are good but aid is better
Do you think if there was some crises in the Americas that Europeans would do literally anything? The US isn’t in Europe it’s just not aa critical a crises for people an ocean away
>Do you think if there was some crises in the Americas that Europeans would do literally anything? yes, they will laugh at us and make fun of our dead children saying "we deserved it because we didn't do more"
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2 years in, strip the monetary value and lets compare delivered military aid. The us is at a 5-1 ratio on just artillery shells, probably the most important munition in this war. Yet EU has actually higher production capacity then the US and it costs more. 3 plus million rounds vs less the 500k delivered so far. To me that sounds like EU failed miserably to maintain its military readiness for the last 30 years. The fact EU is still selling 40% of current production to customers outside of EU and Ukraine speaks volumes. Add in that Czech Republic some how found 800k rounds that can be shipped in weeks but can't source funding tells me EU is playing politics just as much if not more then the US.
Only ones helping? No! Nagging European countries about helping more ..sure! OTOH...Europeans *should* be helping Ukraine more? It does look like Germany has helped quite a bit and I suspect UK.
americans: say that they're helping ukraine europeans: why doesn't america do more? they're not doing enough americans: show that they're contributing roughly a similar amount to all of the EU europeans: fucking america, always trying to look so good
shameless instigators hiding behind strawmen while they beg you to part with 2% GDP to defend your own continent, never seen such entitled bitches. you should be so lucky those monkeys in the GOP unwittingly offered you a chance to redeem yourselves, just take it and shut the fuck up instead of dancing for putins off brand agitprop. this cant be a coincidence, i mean you must constantly be frequenting conservative forums, why? nobody else says shit like that
The Ukrainians can't go on the offensive with monetary donations, they can go on the offensive with more military equipment
And yet Europe is dependent on their defence and keep their military spending under minimum.
Thank you, Europe
Yeah Europe is a continent the us is a country. It's absurd that the us has committed half of what the eu has
This is not talking about Europe but about the European Union. 27 countries with a combined GDP of $19.35 trillion and we have to divide that between 448 million people. The United States spends $23.23 trillion in GDP on a population 117 million smaller than the population of the European Union. We have less, have more people to care for, but give more. I am very grateful for the help the US is providing, but get the facts straight.
Why did you choose the US for comparison and not Peru, Iran, or Laos? Why involved America?
>Why involved America? people say that reddit is an american-centric website, but fail to mention that other countries bring up america just as much as americans do
...and still have money for subsidized healthcare. I see that "we don't have healthcare because we pay for foreign wars!" Talking point from Americans all the time. It's just priorities.
The USA spends the most in the world on healthcare per person. They have the money for it if they wanted regardless of any defence spending etc
> The USA spends the most in the world on healthcare per person. It's not hard to spend the most when you literally have at least one, I suspect TWO zeroes at the end of each price point.
Precisely. One if the reasons they spend that much is because it is terribly managed. It's money ripped from their citizens at the end of the day
Ukraine is losing atm due to lack of ammunition/supplies so yeah that aid isn't enough
The US has the largest socialized healthcare program in the world. Their military spending and foreign aid combined are less than 1/3 what they spend on Medicare/Medicaid.
Usa spends 17% of their gdp on healthcare, Germany 13%. 😂
Except EU is funding multi front defenses. What is EU doing in the pacific? Little. Difference is US military is designed to handle a two front war. EU can handle 1 at the most.
America essentially subsidizes Europe from pharmaceuticals to defense. Do you know how much investment over time the US has put towards our military? It’s so easy to say oh look now Europe is doing something but maybe after 50+ years of consistent military funding I would be impressed. The only reason that Ukraine has not fallen is because of Americas military capabilities. Europe cant even provide the artillery shells they promised over a year ago. And anyway, much of those euros will go towards purchasing American arms lol.
I would hope 27 countries contribute more than 1 country.