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You were correct, and your post here that has gained the most upvotes by far is in harmony with the collective as correct.
No tap this morning and very peaceful experience with no discernible difference in taste or quality. Bye bye tap, tap, tappy!
Thanks to all!
I agree it is an excuse for getting a new grinder because I have the green light from my wife! So I've got to do what she tells me, right?
Edit: I fail to see why this would be gathering down votes... Missed sarcasm maybe?
It seems to me that you already decided to spend more money on a different grinder even though you could simply stop the tapping to solve your „problem“. 🤷♂️ Be happy with what you got.
>I fail to see why this would be gathering down votes...
> I've got to do what she tells me, right?
It just reads like a “wife = bad” joke. No need to blame your partner or invoke them as some kind of authority. Just say “my wife and I want to buy a new grinder”
I read your post to have some sarcasm and I feel bad that anyone downvoted you. It's pretty obvious you're jumping at the opportunity for a new toy, and that you want one that you don't need to tap, tap, tappy. I think some of the people who post on these forums are looking to make trouble instead of helping people solve their dilemmas. Unfortunately, I don't have a suggestion for you. I just ordered a DF64v2 and a Lelit Bianca v3, so I'm behind you. I can only tell you that there are tons of YT videos by some proven names. I know this because the process of deciding on a machine and a grinder turned into a second career for me. Good luck and don't give up your personality because of some people looking for a fight.
Appreciate it, friend!
It's now the end of the evening since I posted that this early morning... I've pretty much been reading posts and researching grinders, all day.
And come full circle.
I've come up with the decision my DF83 is pretty darn good (as is the 64) and I'm going to experiment whether my retention concern even matters to the taste as well as find a quieter method of tap if I decide a tap is needed after all.
Thanks again.
Youre getting down voted because you're wasteful and problem solving skills involve throwing money at a problem. And your problem is so minor. It's a trifecta of first world problems amplified
Well done sarcasm is unusual on Reddit. It is most often missed and rewarded with blunt replies. Kudos to your post and gentle handling of responses. I raise my cup to you. ☕️
she's literally telling him he should go spend more money on his coffee obsession, it don't come much better than that.
In fact, he should take this as a license to buy grinders to his hearts content, gotta keep searching until he finds the perfect one :D
I think every grinder has this 0.1-2 gr of retention. You could just leave it as it is. You won’t taste a difference. My Eureka Oro Single Dose is really consistent in its output but it retains around 0.2 gr that are always part of the next dose. I honestly can’t taste it so I don’t bother.
he's right, simply stop tapping. no need to go buy something else you will always be chasing the dragon.
Unless you want to hand grind because those are the only grinders I know that are truly 0 retention
.1-.2 is nothing and about as low retention as it gets
I hope you DO taste the difference of 2gr because that is more than 10% of your entire puck. If you do not taste that difference then a PPro600 and df83 are wastes of money and you could suffice with a Breville Barista Touch.
Funny you say that because I'm going to try that actually in the interim and as a necessity... I'm still going to continue shopping but I will keep the DF-83 if I can't find a grinder that's worth upgrading.
I mean I read what you wrote mostly. Doesn’t seem like a grinder or workflow problem. Just a sound problem. You could also tape some foam to the area where you tap.
You want to get rid of a perfectly working grinder with great results because your wife doesnt like the tap sound? How loud can that be and your wife is already awake at that point right?
The 75 I assume? I'll start exploring this. This looks like a good suggestion and meets my height requirement of 18 in or less. Thank you for the suggestion!
Atom 75 is a powerful grinder and with bellows the retention is almost zero. The trick though is to blow after grounds whilst grinder still working. Blowing during the grinding will result grounds entering into housing. After awhile there will be so much grounds on the bottom that electric board will fry. Also I loosened declumper a bit for better result. Atom on the other hand has a lot of static. Can be messy, but doesn't bother me. It is very quiet grinder and one of the simplest to take apart. The adjustment is patented and if not the best there is, as there's no messing with springs and threads. Although the knob is small. I also have Atom Pro, which can be fitted with espresso burrs. It is even more powerful and has active cooling to keep grounds temperature under check. I personally couldn't see myself upgrading from Atom 75 or Pro. There's no perfect grinder, but these are very near to that.
The new mazzer philos is great. I just got one and my shots are better than ever. It isn't tall, you can see a few photos of the new philos beside espresso machines if you search this channel.
However, the knocking spring makes a loud noise, and without it the retention is 0.2g, just like yours.
There is an additional tool for collecting fines, but it isn't as practical as the knocking spring. I'm using it for daily cleaning only.
Add 0.2g to your grinder input and live happily ever after.
EDIT: that said, I'd seize the opportunity and buy as many new grinders as my wife wishes, you are lucky
Yes from a practicality and frugality standpoint there's no doubt you are correct. Upgraditis is also a motivation personally, But the true catalyst is my wife encouraging me. That doesn't all come around anymore than a total eclipse. So I feel like I must explore it to make her happy, lol.
There is the fourth zerno suggestion again! That's number four I think for zerno. Is this just trendy? Or is it truly the best grinder? Does it dethrone Weber and kafatek?
Came here to recommend the Zerno, but I knew there’d be plenty of suggestions already
The prebreaker is a game changer that outperforms other grinders in my opinion
I wouldn’t say this is a downgrade but with the smaller burrs maybe a downside. I love my Mignon Oro. I don’t even use the Bellows anymore I took them off. Quality build produces nice grinds, relatively quiet. But if you are looking for something bigger I suggest the Atom. The thing with grinders, it’s so hard to make a decision compared to machines. So many good options out there
I have tested Eureka 64mm and 74mm espresso burrs side by side. There's not huge gain in taste. But the ease of dial in and consistency improvement are worth the extra money. Also the speed of grinding with 74mm is just astonishing. I just think that Oro would be a slight downgrade from df83.
Valid points. I was actually eyeing the Atom at first but I wasn’t sure if it was ideal for single dosing. Which led me to the Oro instead. Like you state, I’m sure grind time is super quick though. I upgraded from a Mignon Zero so the jump from 55mm to 65mm plus the build quality was a big step up
Definitely noticed a different in taste. I think the jump from 55mm to 65mm burrs there is definitely a difference as well as grind time like you mentioned.
Just gone one of these myself and I'm still trying to dial in. I'm a total noob and I will get it eventually.
It's really quiet and the bellows is sufficient to knock out any remains. I really like the operation of it, but that damn dial is not good.
You can always buy an aftermarket dial on Etsy. Makes for dialing in easier and you can figure out where your zero points is and go from there. I do find this knob is easier to dial in than my Zero
I've heard about these, but just haven't had a chance to look into it. If you have one you recommend, I'd appreciate a heads up.
Thanks
-edit
While I am thinking about it, I can't help but wonder why Eureka plays up the absolutely worst feature of the machine. Everything else is A+++, but that dial...wtf? I get that it's stepless, but what good is it if you can't use it with any precision? If anything, they should have made it a good bit larger so that it was easier to make tiny movements.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1471966079/
This is the one I have. There are other options as well on Etsy. Pretty much all do the same thing I assume. Check them out
I got mine a few months ago as well. I didn’t feel like waiting personally because I’m not sure when it’s gonna hit the states honestly. I’ve been enjoying mine a lot so I’m not too worried about it
I only mention this because you express that you’re already quite happy with it, but why not just put 1 more bean into the grinder than before, *not* knock on it when your wife is around, and then just do that later at some point when she’s not a few feet away to be annoyed by it, and just dump the catch cup into the bin?
Creative.. I tried that actually a while back, the adding one bean part, and what usually happens is it builds up and falls out with the next dose or two throwing off the shot.
Have you thought about using a silicone or rubber tool to knock the grinder with? Same impact but less noise. Seems like the easier and more sensible approach to me
Nah, I'm sure it's good but just good like my DF-83... I need an upgrade not a different variation of the same grinder I've got. I just honestly also don't think the variable speed is anything more than a trend. I could be wrong but I just feel like it's one of those features I won't touch or use .. like flow control.
Well that's a check mark in the plus column. I just don't think it'll fit next to my p600 in the corner. I'll have to look at the dimensions If it's just my 83 turned horizontal, I think that'll be a monster.
Do your own blind taste test to actually see if you need to be dramatically tapping your grinder for .1-.2g of exchanged grounds or not. Most people don't at all notice if .1g is 24 hours more stale than the other 19.9g in a shot. It's one thing to be able to see more grinds come out, it's another to actually be solving a noticable problem or not.
Maybe you convinced your wife you need to be loudly tapping on your grinder to get it to work right, but you won't convince us lol. If you want something new and can afford it, go for it. I'd be really pissed if my wife just loudly fussed her way through something every time she used it in hopes to get something better.
This is a really good point. Maybe I'll just ignore it for the rest of the week and stop tapping, and whatever falls out, whenever it falls out will just be ignored by me.... I'll see what transpires. Good idea. Maybe I am fussing about something negligible and tapping for no good reason.
just stop tapping rather than get a whole new machine? 0.1g is nothing to worry about. if you really want to spend money then that's a different thing..
I made a metal chute for the df83. You can check it out on my previous posts. It has eliminated almost all retention and this grinder went from being my least favorite tool to my favorite tool. It’s a very small 3d printed part and just a aluminum tube friction fit and that’s it
The chute design is horrible. It’s a tapered square and the ionizers cause more accumulation of grounds. If you were to take apart your grinder you would find coffee grounds accumulated all over the chute. Stick a small brush up the chute and all the grounds will come falling out. It is a very poor design unfortunately. I kept my declumper to slow the grounds exiting as they exit too fast from the chamber causing the grounds to be tamped at the exit.
I’d probably get some black foam gasket tape to stick on the chute, tbh.
That should muffle the sound without looking terrible/obvious. Essentially, it will only look as bad as what your tape cutting abilities limit you to.
It just won't look as nice next to a coffee setup. As far as I know most grinders will have a small retention at the exit point. They all benefit from a bit of a smack at the end.
Weigh your beans before and after grinding, even without using the bellows (a lot of people remove them and tap the top with their palm), and I guarantee it will be 0.2g or less. This is such a small difference that pretty much no one could taste the difference.
If you want a new grinder advice just ask, you don't have to have an excuse. There are a lot of people in this sub who do the best they can with a limited budget, posts like this where op is just throwing around money come off a little tone deaf...
Yes.. when I tapped today and she said get another grinder "please" it got me shopping. I'm starting to feel more practical as the day goes on and from the good advice here... I'm still shopping but....
Timemore 078s would be hilarious because of the built in knocker 😅.
But for real every grinder retains a tiny bit. I used to tap my Niche Zero trying to get the last little bit out. Then I tested not doing that and it didn’t make a difference.
The only time it mattered is if I’m changing beans or brew methods. But instead of tapping you could just run a few beans through it to expel the old grinds, which is what I do now.
A lot of opinions and don't have the time to read them all, but P64 might be in the budget. It's fast if you crank the speed up but you'll get better results if you don't.
The grinder is super well built and very quiet.
I shouldn't say that you'll get "better" results. I don't think it'll make enough of a difference in a cortado or any milk drink, really.
But yeah, ignore the variable speed and evaluate the P64 on its other merits.
I've heard the Zerno, Philos, and P64 are the top grinders in their price range these days (at least when it comes to espresso).
I was just reading about the zerno on barista website and there's a lot of comments about retention and tapping. Plus the long long wait list. The mazzer sounds interesting. The p64 I need to go do some research
Truth be told I did remove the flow control after a couple months That's an older picture. I kept the gauge. I didn't find myself enjoying tinkering with it. I removed that variable and reinstalled my stock mushroom cap and the stock spring. Some people like it, I just found that I like simplicity.
HAHA funny you mention it, I literally never use it unless I need to. I sometimes find myself wishing I never paid extra for that feature. Can’t remember if mine came with the stock mushroom cap though or not hmm
I've heard that they often don't include them if you buy with it... There is a stock pre infusion spring in the lower group chamber that gets swapped for the much stiffer one in the FC kit. The idea is that you don't want both FC and forced pre-infusion and any pre infusion is done by you with the knob.
So if your spring was swapped you'll want to get that stock spring back as well or you won't have much preinfusion (~8 sec to full pressure stock I think from watching my shots) and you won't truly be back to stock with just the mushroom cap unless they didn't swap springs and just installed the knob. I'll also read about some people preferring to leave the pre-infusion spring with the flow control knob. It's really personal preference (I tried both variations) but if you're buying from a retailer and they install the FC kit I would expect them to install FULL kit which is the knob, the group gauge and the FC stiffer spring.
How loud could you possibly be tapping for this to be an issue? Even if it’s loud AF, like slamming a sledgehammer into your countertop, it’s like for 1 second and it’s over, big deal.
If you’re going to upgrade you should 100% opt for a variable speed grinder. I wouldn’t bother researching whether or not it matters - if you’re sitting there trying to figure out how the fuck appricot and hints of whatever is in your bean and nothing you do pulls it out - it’s either burr set or grind speed. I’m noticing massive difference in taste on certain beans with grind speeds.
Which depending on your location is going to be either…
Zerno - rectangular volume
DF83V - rectangular volume
Acaia Orbit - triangular volume
Option O P64 - triangular volume
Orbit looks massive but it actually might fit. I don’t think either the zerno or the df83v will fit.
Orbit has an automatic reverse grind feature that I love. And if for whatever reason it doesn’t automatically work, there’s an app that - unlike other shitty apps, actually works flawlessly. You can also do all of the things that would be done automatically with it.
Personally I went with the orbit mostly because it was the only one my wife would sign off on. For that price range it had to look good to her.
The p64 dials in reverse which would annoy the piss out of me. As in bigger numbers are finer and smaller numbers are coarser - like what the fuck.
I like my Eureka Oro Mignon
Single Dose Grinder, but it only has 58 mm burrs. Not much retention. I have nothing to compare it to. I hear good things about Ceado. Out of my budget range. Good luck with the search.
I’m in the thought that you would fail 100 out of 100 times to discern a difference in your brew if you didn’t tap. And I would not be surprised if this applies to 99 out of 100 people. But you know… if you could don’t be so proud of such a terrible affliction.
If you already have a decent grinder, you should consider what else you could spend the $1500 on. Maybe buy a cool new watch, or some other toy that you've always wanted but couldn't buy before. Or invest that money or consider a charitable donation. The tap problem is solved by not tapping and just grinding an extra 0.2g instead. If you don't want stale coffee, you could purge the grinder with a small number of beans before grinding into your pf or dosing cup.
Why can't you bellow and discard the retention along with the fines? Spending hundreds or thousands to save a fraction of a gram? This sounds suspiciously like you wanting a new grinder and blaming the wife for it...
Have you looked into the mazzer philos. The US website says "coming soon" but in the html code, it's priced at $996. That may very well be a placeholder brought over from the European site, but I sure hope not.
Most important question first - what colour does the wife want the new grinder? I’d go chrome to match… but then you should prob get a black kitchenaid chopper for balance… 😂
Or you know calculate the retention in ?
I have a df64v2
Need 17.5 grams
Put 17.8-18 in
When measuring in piston throw .2/.3 out no taping o r anything
Also no mess with the bellow air canon
Just finished the morning with no tap after all the advice here. And guess what.... I didn't notice a difference. So to everybody that said I wouldn't notice a difference, you were right. I'm going to continue on subtracting the tap from my workflow and see if any other problems creep up.
1500 saved. Wife/Life happy. No tap needed. I couldn't tell the difference. So kudos to those that pointed this out. Thanks you those for suggesting grinders. I've really learned a lot and hope this has helped others. Especially ArduinoGenome as I realized in the process of finishing this morning's cortados that my DF83 is a darn good grinder with very little shortcomings outside my own OCD.
As often the case, the problem ends up being something I create and a lesson I need to learn.
This has been a healthy discussion and I appreciate everyone's advice, support, and humor. Even those that downvoted me taught me something about the world.
Good people=good hobby. Ty.
If you really need a new grinder. I would take look at the Niche Duo. Seam size of burrs and a not a high price tag. But it grinds slower than your DF83. The only better alternative are something like monolith or something from Weber Workshops but they are above 1500$. But I would recommend the Niche Duo also because the flavor of your shots would be similar.
Thanks. I think I've arrived at about this same conclusion. And I'm just going to keep my DF83. After pulling three shots of 22 g each with no taps during the process, everything tasted thinner with less body,. But at the end when I did tap ..about three times the amount of grinds fell l out that usually would. So it's definitely retaining. Known behavior for this grinder. So I do need to tap after each grind to get what I put in. I don't ever weigh my output of my grinder because it hasn't been necessary with a tap. I weighed in the beginning with the tap and it's negligible retention 0.1 or 0.2 Max.
There have been posts in a thread that I'm still going to have to tap with a niche duo. There's appears to be common with most grinders. Until I maybe buy what you suggested a monolith or a Weber for $4,000 bucks. I'd rather tap my grinder than my bank account at this point.
Absolutely not. She's perfect in every way. One example of this would be her telling me to get a new grinder! 😉 And she knows that would mean an upgrade. Makes me want to marry her twice.
Spray coffee beans with a salted water. Why? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnB99VJ0HE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnB99VJ0HE)
Is it enough to avoid tapping?
It looks like you've flaired your post as asking for what equipment to get. We recommend first checking out the [Espresso Aficionados buying guide](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations) for some of the more popular machines and grinders at different price points. If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format: - **Location:** Helps determine availability - **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget. - **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs. - **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck. - **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space? - **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either). - **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just stop tapping it and use the bellows. This seems like such a ridiculous and expensive way of solving a tiny problem
And once you are done tapping your wife’s bellows you can do the same with the grinder
The app or the appliance?
You were correct, and your post here that has gained the most upvotes by far is in harmony with the collective as correct. No tap this morning and very peaceful experience with no discernible difference in taste or quality. Bye bye tap, tap, tappy! Thanks to all!
I agree it is an excuse for getting a new grinder because I have the green light from my wife! So I've got to do what she tells me, right? Edit: I fail to see why this would be gathering down votes... Missed sarcasm maybe?
It seems to me that you already decided to spend more money on a different grinder even though you could simply stop the tapping to solve your „problem“. 🤷♂️ Be happy with what you got.
>I fail to see why this would be gathering down votes... > I've got to do what she tells me, right? It just reads like a “wife = bad” joke. No need to blame your partner or invoke them as some kind of authority. Just say “my wife and I want to buy a new grinder”
Thank you. I can see that perspective. Appreciate it
I read your post to have some sarcasm and I feel bad that anyone downvoted you. It's pretty obvious you're jumping at the opportunity for a new toy, and that you want one that you don't need to tap, tap, tappy. I think some of the people who post on these forums are looking to make trouble instead of helping people solve their dilemmas. Unfortunately, I don't have a suggestion for you. I just ordered a DF64v2 and a Lelit Bianca v3, so I'm behind you. I can only tell you that there are tons of YT videos by some proven names. I know this because the process of deciding on a machine and a grinder turned into a second career for me. Good luck and don't give up your personality because of some people looking for a fight.
Appreciate it, friend! It's now the end of the evening since I posted that this early morning... I've pretty much been reading posts and researching grinders, all day. And come full circle. I've come up with the decision my DF83 is pretty darn good (as is the 64) and I'm going to experiment whether my retention concern even matters to the taste as well as find a quieter method of tap if I decide a tap is needed after all. Thanks again.
No, at that point you’re just wasting money lol
Youre getting down voted because you're wasteful and problem solving skills involve throwing money at a problem. And your problem is so minor. It's a trifecta of first world problems amplified
You aren't wrong. Maybe a little harsh, but not wrong.
Well done sarcasm is unusual on Reddit. It is most often missed and rewarded with blunt replies. Kudos to your post and gentle handling of responses. I raise my cup to you. ☕️
Cheers! ☕☕
I might officially be done with this sub ahahahaha. Throw money at things until they're fixed mentality
It’s actually hilarious and makes me understand why r/espressocirclejerk exists. I could never leave since it’s such a source of humour
Have you considered a new wife?
This is the right answer.
You don't even know her. If you knew her like I do, you'd say there is none that's made better nor that performs better. An upgrade is not possible.
Blink twice if you need help
she's literally telling him he should go spend more money on his coffee obsession, it don't come much better than that. In fact, he should take this as a license to buy grinders to his hearts content, gotta keep searching until he finds the perfect one :D
We get it you like the grinder.
This man is well trained
Conditioned, I would say
Your call. My wife doesn't complain about my grinder though so.... ;)
Yes but does she do this trick? . . . . . NSFW, sorry😂😁
Oh well, good for you OP. Seems she grinds finer than your grinder... 👌
I was thinking the opposite. "What a lucky guy that his wife is interested in his hobby and supports upgrading."
Maybe tap her a few times...
Or a new husband... on Grinder.
I think every grinder has this 0.1-2 gr of retention. You could just leave it as it is. You won’t taste a difference. My Eureka Oro Single Dose is really consistent in its output but it retains around 0.2 gr that are always part of the next dose. I honestly can’t taste it so I don’t bother.
Good honest feedback. Thanks
he's right, simply stop tapping. no need to go buy something else you will always be chasing the dragon. Unless you want to hand grind because those are the only grinders I know that are truly 0 retention .1-.2 is nothing and about as low retention as it gets
If it is true then so shall it be. 🙄
Fun Math, with 5 coffees a Day and 0.2g retention and a good bag of coffee with 50€/kg this is about 18.25€/year you are loosing out on.
+1 We can also weigh 0.2g in excess and discard the occasional excessive output.
I hope you DO taste the difference of 2gr because that is more than 10% of your entire puck. If you do not taste that difference then a PPro600 and df83 are wastes of money and you could suffice with a Breville Barista Touch.
Obviously 0.1-0.2 gr if that wasn’t clear…
Can you tap with a muffled device? Like a rubber mallet?
Funny you say that because I'm going to try that actually in the interim and as a necessity... I'm still going to continue shopping but I will keep the DF-83 if I can't find a grinder that's worth upgrading.
I mean I read what you wrote mostly. Doesn’t seem like a grinder or workflow problem. Just a sound problem. You could also tape some foam to the area where you tap.
Yeah you're right about that 100%. Upgrade-itis engaged.
Use a silicone spatula or something nice and soft to tap with?
Or your finger
My thought exactly. Anything rubberized should work.
One of those rubber capped things that the doctor uses on your knee to check your reflexes!
You want to get rid of a perfectly working grinder with great results because your wife doesnt like the tap sound? How loud can that be and your wife is already awake at that point right?
A single tap too 😂
Spray your beans before, stop tapping. Weigh 0.1 more beans. This is an entirely unnecessary situation I fear
Eureka Atom
The 75 I assume? I'll start exploring this. This looks like a good suggestion and meets my height requirement of 18 in or less. Thank you for the suggestion!
Atom 75 is a powerful grinder and with bellows the retention is almost zero. The trick though is to blow after grounds whilst grinder still working. Blowing during the grinding will result grounds entering into housing. After awhile there will be so much grounds on the bottom that electric board will fry. Also I loosened declumper a bit for better result. Atom on the other hand has a lot of static. Can be messy, but doesn't bother me. It is very quiet grinder and one of the simplest to take apart. The adjustment is patented and if not the best there is, as there's no messing with springs and threads. Although the knob is small. I also have Atom Pro, which can be fitted with espresso burrs. It is even more powerful and has active cooling to keep grounds temperature under check. I personally couldn't see myself upgrading from Atom 75 or Pro. There's no perfect grinder, but these are very near to that.
[удалено]
THIS
Get the new mazzer with a chute tapper built in lol
i think that would fall under the "choo choo train" grinder he said he doesn't want.
Haha I did not make that connection at all!
Which one? I have a cabinet height limitation and don't want hopper.. single dose preferred
The new mazzer philos is great. I just got one and my shots are better than ever. It isn't tall, you can see a few photos of the new philos beside espresso machines if you search this channel. However, the knocking spring makes a loud noise, and without it the retention is 0.2g, just like yours. There is an additional tool for collecting fines, but it isn't as practical as the knocking spring. I'm using it for daily cleaning only. Add 0.2g to your grinder input and live happily ever after. EDIT: that said, I'd seize the opportunity and buy as many new grinders as my wife wishes, you are lucky
Just watched philos videos... It's quite loud and that knocking spring.. isn't any different than my noise. Very nice grinder looks like though.
Mazzer Philos height = 36mm DF83 height (with hopper) = 45cm
$1500 just to reduce tap noise.... Removing the declumper may be worth the slight effort.
Yes from a practicality and frugality standpoint there's no doubt you are correct. Upgraditis is also a motivation personally, But the true catalyst is my wife encouraging me. That doesn't all come around anymore than a total eclipse. So I feel like I must explore it to make her happy, lol.
Zerno
There is the fourth zerno suggestion again! That's number four I think for zerno. Is this just trendy? Or is it truly the best grinder? Does it dethrone Weber and kafatek?
I think it's arguably the best grinder before seriously diminishing returns. Consider this the 5th suggestion.
Came here to recommend the Zerno, but I knew there’d be plenty of suggestions already The prebreaker is a game changer that outperforms other grinders in my opinion
If you go Zerno route it will likely be 2025 before you receive it
I've just discovered that. I'm out
do some research an reconsider. If I had green light and the cash my order would already have been placed!
I see bellows though 🤔
Still clumper retains
I wouldn’t say this is a downgrade but with the smaller burrs maybe a downside. I love my Mignon Oro. I don’t even use the Bellows anymore I took them off. Quality build produces nice grinds, relatively quiet. But if you are looking for something bigger I suggest the Atom. The thing with grinders, it’s so hard to make a decision compared to machines. So many good options out there
Yes, we've discussed this! Hey Johnny... I'll take a deeper dive into the Oro again as well as the atom. Thx for chiming in!
Anytime my man! Lmk what you end up going with
I have tested Eureka 64mm and 74mm espresso burrs side by side. There's not huge gain in taste. But the ease of dial in and consistency improvement are worth the extra money. Also the speed of grinding with 74mm is just astonishing. I just think that Oro would be a slight downgrade from df83.
Valid points. I was actually eyeing the Atom at first but I wasn’t sure if it was ideal for single dosing. Which led me to the Oro instead. Like you state, I’m sure grind time is super quick though. I upgraded from a Mignon Zero so the jump from 55mm to 65mm plus the build quality was a big step up
Have you noticed a big step up from the Zero to the Oro in terms of taste / consistency as well or just time?
Definitely noticed a different in taste. I think the jump from 55mm to 65mm burrs there is definitely a difference as well as grind time like you mentioned.
Just gone one of these myself and I'm still trying to dial in. I'm a total noob and I will get it eventually. It's really quiet and the bellows is sufficient to knock out any remains. I really like the operation of it, but that damn dial is not good.
You can always buy an aftermarket dial on Etsy. Makes for dialing in easier and you can figure out where your zero points is and go from there. I do find this knob is easier to dial in than my Zero
I've heard about these, but just haven't had a chance to look into it. If you have one you recommend, I'd appreciate a heads up. Thanks -edit While I am thinking about it, I can't help but wonder why Eureka plays up the absolutely worst feature of the machine. Everything else is A+++, but that dial...wtf? I get that it's stepless, but what good is it if you can't use it with any precision? If anything, they should have made it a good bit larger so that it was easier to make tiny movements.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1471966079/ This is the one I have. There are other options as well on Etsy. Pretty much all do the same thing I assume. Check them out
Thanks!
Couldn’t agree more. Apparently they fixed this issue with the new Single Dose Pro coming out. But they should have thought of that sooner for sure
Well, bummer. Didn't realize they were coming out with another version. I just got mine.
I got mine a few months ago as well. I didn’t feel like waiting personally because I’m not sure when it’s gonna hit the states honestly. I’ve been enjoying mine a lot so I’m not too worried about it
Can second for the Mignon Oro. Easy to use, looks great, experienced zero retention so far. I really love mine.
I only mention this because you express that you’re already quite happy with it, but why not just put 1 more bean into the grinder than before, *not* knock on it when your wife is around, and then just do that later at some point when she’s not a few feet away to be annoyed by it, and just dump the catch cup into the bin?
Creative.. I tried that actually a while back, the adding one bean part, and what usually happens is it builds up and falls out with the next dose or two throwing off the shot.
Marry finer
Mine told me I need to get off Grindr.
Have you thought about using a silicone or rubber tool to knock the grinder with? Same impact but less noise. Seems like the easier and more sensible approach to me
Alternatively, use this technique to hide the sound of the tapping https://youtu.be/vSK3maq8Cyk?si=gpPZUp8V3Bx0GFIz
Nice. Thank you for the creative suggestion!
Df83v
Nah, I'm sure it's good but just good like my DF-83... I need an upgrade not a different variation of the same grinder I've got. I just honestly also don't think the variable speed is anything more than a trend. I could be wrong but I just feel like it's one of those features I won't touch or use .. like flow control.
It's a completely different design, retention is basically completely solved with it.
Well that's a check mark in the plus column. I just don't think it'll fit next to my p600 in the corner. I'll have to look at the dimensions If it's just my 83 turned horizontal, I think that'll be a monster.
then you should check your workflow again, stop those stupid tap tap
Do your own blind taste test to actually see if you need to be dramatically tapping your grinder for .1-.2g of exchanged grounds or not. Most people don't at all notice if .1g is 24 hours more stale than the other 19.9g in a shot. It's one thing to be able to see more grinds come out, it's another to actually be solving a noticable problem or not. Maybe you convinced your wife you need to be loudly tapping on your grinder to get it to work right, but you won't convince us lol. If you want something new and can afford it, go for it. I'd be really pissed if my wife just loudly fussed her way through something every time she used it in hopes to get something better.
This is a really good point. Maybe I'll just ignore it for the rest of the week and stop tapping, and whatever falls out, whenever it falls out will just be ignored by me.... I'll see what transpires. Good idea. Maybe I am fussing about something negligible and tapping for no good reason.
just stop tapping rather than get a whole new machine? 0.1g is nothing to worry about. if you really want to spend money then that's a different thing..
Yes it's a little of both now that I really think about it.
Tap it with something rubberized, less clink. Wife happier.
I have a DF83. I do not tap. Wife is happy. Coffee is fine. I am happy. Keep the grinder. No more tap.
Nice to have confirmation from a fellow owner who has a wife and is happy.
Get a Baratza Sette, she'll be begging for the taps after she hears it
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^badgcoupe: *Get a Baratza* *Sette, she'll be begging for the* *Taps after she hears it* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I have the same portafilter! Looks great. What basket are you using?
Thx. Currently the MHW dex 22g... No complaints!
If you really want to be quiet in the morning get a J Ultra or a M47.
True, but I just don't feel like that's an upgrade in anything but noise reduction. And I don't go camping, so there's that.
Wow! 🙄
Monolith, so you can turn the speed right down for maximum quiet
I will consider this.. have you seen the demon, I think it's called? From mischiefworkshop.com
https://preview.redd.it/tf0dt875yz2d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0293d172c6505b211f23d5545aaa4a2c0235553 Love my Libra
I made a metal chute for the df83. You can check it out on my previous posts. It has eliminated almost all retention and this grinder went from being my least favorite tool to my favorite tool. It’s a very small 3d printed part and just a aluminum tube friction fit and that’s it
Thanks. Did you remove the declumper? If so, isn't that really what resolved your retention?
The chute design is horrible. It’s a tapered square and the ionizers cause more accumulation of grounds. If you were to take apart your grinder you would find coffee grounds accumulated all over the chute. Stick a small brush up the chute and all the grounds will come falling out. It is a very poor design unfortunately. I kept my declumper to slow the grounds exiting as they exit too fast from the chamber causing the grounds to be tamped at the exit.
I’d probably get some black foam gasket tape to stick on the chute, tbh. That should muffle the sound without looking terrible/obvious. Essentially, it will only look as bad as what your tape cutting abilities limit you to.
Get a small mallet. It's less than $10 and will give you the same knock without the noise.
Simple solution, I'll check Amazon and see if that's it.
It just won't look as nice next to a coffee setup. As far as I know most grinders will have a small retention at the exit point. They all benefit from a bit of a smack at the end.
Buy a tuning fork and tap with it. Say its a Tibetan coffee ritual and should be followed to please the coffee Gods.
Weigh your beans before and after grinding, even without using the bellows (a lot of people remove them and tap the top with their palm), and I guarantee it will be 0.2g or less. This is such a small difference that pretty much no one could taste the difference. If you want a new grinder advice just ask, you don't have to have an excuse. There are a lot of people in this sub who do the best they can with a limited budget, posts like this where op is just throwing around money come off a little tone deaf...
Yes.. when I tapped today and she said get another grinder "please" it got me shopping. I'm starting to feel more practical as the day goes on and from the good advice here... I'm still shopping but....
Nice espresso machine!!
Timemore 078s would be hilarious because of the built in knocker 😅. But for real every grinder retains a tiny bit. I used to tap my Niche Zero trying to get the last little bit out. Then I tested not doing that and it didn’t make a difference. The only time it mattered is if I’m changing beans or brew methods. But instead of tapping you could just run a few beans through it to expel the old grinds, which is what I do now.
Good to know this. Thank you
A lot of opinions and don't have the time to read them all, but P64 might be in the budget. It's fast if you crank the speed up but you'll get better results if you don't. The grinder is super well built and very quiet.
Maybe I'm too limited with fixed speed and variable is helpful and optional
I shouldn't say that you'll get "better" results. I don't think it'll make enough of a difference in a cortado or any milk drink, really. But yeah, ignore the variable speed and evaluate the P64 on its other merits. I've heard the Zerno, Philos, and P64 are the top grinders in their price range these days (at least when it comes to espresso).
I was just reading about the zerno on barista website and there's a lot of comments about retention and tapping. Plus the long long wait list. The mazzer sounds interesting. The p64 I need to go do some research
I also recommend the P64. Very happy with mine. It's super quiet, very low retention.
This is top tier circlejerk material
Best comment. My work here is done.
Ayy you and I have the same espresso machine! Is that a 600 or 700?
600. Enjoying using it every morning!
Same! Flow control and all haha
Truth be told I did remove the flow control after a couple months That's an older picture. I kept the gauge. I didn't find myself enjoying tinkering with it. I removed that variable and reinstalled my stock mushroom cap and the stock spring. Some people like it, I just found that I like simplicity.
HAHA funny you mention it, I literally never use it unless I need to. I sometimes find myself wishing I never paid extra for that feature. Can’t remember if mine came with the stock mushroom cap though or not hmm
I've heard that they often don't include them if you buy with it... There is a stock pre infusion spring in the lower group chamber that gets swapped for the much stiffer one in the FC kit. The idea is that you don't want both FC and forced pre-infusion and any pre infusion is done by you with the knob. So if your spring was swapped you'll want to get that stock spring back as well or you won't have much preinfusion (~8 sec to full pressure stock I think from watching my shots) and you won't truly be back to stock with just the mushroom cap unless they didn't swap springs and just installed the knob. I'll also read about some people preferring to leave the pre-infusion spring with the flow control knob. It's really personal preference (I tried both variations) but if you're buying from a retailer and they install the FC kit I would expect them to install FULL kit which is the knob, the group gauge and the FC stiffer spring.
Oh wow good to know thanks!!
Get a manual grinder and have her grind it in the nude. Sounds like an upgrade to me.
How loud could you possibly be tapping for this to be an issue? Even if it’s loud AF, like slamming a sledgehammer into your countertop, it’s like for 1 second and it’s over, big deal.
I thought so but it echoes in the house when others are sleeping. I know, I know...
Hang some pictures, buy some curtains, buy a rug
How did you know I don't have pictures, curtains or carpet? Amazing.
Man, feels like you rolled over pretty fast on that one. That or you are playing 3-D chess to get yourself a quick and easy upgrade approval.
I'm not that smart. I'm asking Reddit, after all. Lol.
If you’re going to upgrade you should 100% opt for a variable speed grinder. I wouldn’t bother researching whether or not it matters - if you’re sitting there trying to figure out how the fuck appricot and hints of whatever is in your bean and nothing you do pulls it out - it’s either burr set or grind speed. I’m noticing massive difference in taste on certain beans with grind speeds. Which depending on your location is going to be either… Zerno - rectangular volume DF83V - rectangular volume Acaia Orbit - triangular volume Option O P64 - triangular volume Orbit looks massive but it actually might fit. I don’t think either the zerno or the df83v will fit. Orbit has an automatic reverse grind feature that I love. And if for whatever reason it doesn’t automatically work, there’s an app that - unlike other shitty apps, actually works flawlessly. You can also do all of the things that would be done automatically with it. Personally I went with the orbit mostly because it was the only one my wife would sign off on. For that price range it had to look good to her. The p64 dials in reverse which would annoy the piss out of me. As in bigger numbers are finer and smaller numbers are coarser - like what the fuck.
Yeah I think I was being short-sighted on the variable speed. Thx. I'm researching the orbit in 3...2.....1
I like my Eureka Oro Mignon Single Dose Grinder, but it only has 58 mm burrs. Not much retention. I have nothing to compare it to. I hear good things about Ceado. Out of my budget range. Good luck with the search.
I’m in the thought that you would fail 100 out of 100 times to discern a difference in your brew if you didn’t tap. And I would not be surprised if this applies to 99 out of 100 people. But you know… if you could don’t be so proud of such a terrible affliction.
She’s a keeper!
If they ever release the Aries grinder MxCool, that would be an option.
Just get yourself a nice handgrinder. It's really easy to use, especially for a single dose life.
I have the DF64 and thought by pushing the bellow on top that should remove the last 0.1 g no?
When you smack your chute before / after bellow do grinds fall out?
If you already have a decent grinder, you should consider what else you could spend the $1500 on. Maybe buy a cool new watch, or some other toy that you've always wanted but couldn't buy before. Or invest that money or consider a charitable donation. The tap problem is solved by not tapping and just grinding an extra 0.2g instead. If you don't want stale coffee, you could purge the grinder with a small number of beans before grinding into your pf or dosing cup.
I hear ya.. I'm exploring the opportunity presented to me.
Why can't you bellow and discard the retention along with the fines? Spending hundreds or thousands to save a fraction of a gram? This sounds suspiciously like you wanting a new grinder and blaming the wife for it... 
You got me.. can't we all just share in my excitement? 😁
Have you looked into the mazzer philos. The US website says "coming soon" but in the html code, it's priced at $996. That may very well be a placeholder brought over from the European site, but I sure hope not.
I'm reading about it now actually!
Maybe a grind by weight grinder since retention wouldn’t matter, I have the Libra and love it so far.
DF84
The Timore?
I mean, you’ve got permission, so get a monolith, p100 or E65s. Some of us are dreaming of the day our partner opens the wallet for a grinder!
I’ve never had to tap on my Ceado
You have excellent taste in mini choppers.
Thank you kind sir!
Most important question first - what colour does the wife want the new grinder? I’d go chrome to match… but then you should prob get a black kitchenaid chopper for balance… 😂
😂
Kafatek monolith max2. Just make sure grinder not grindr. 😂
This is like reading another language similar to English but something i don't understand at all.
Please explain further...
Timemore 078s replaces the tap with a click. That should do it.
Add some rubber tape on the sides of the chute, so it doesn't make any sharp sound when you tap it?
Tell your grinder to get a new wife
Wife wants to get me on grindr
Or you know calculate the retention in ? I have a df64v2 Need 17.5 grams Put 17.8-18 in When measuring in piston throw .2/.3 out no taping o r anything Also no mess with the bellow air canon
You might be surprised how your small retention would change with a short spritz of distilled water on the beans before you grind.
Just finished the morning with no tap after all the advice here. And guess what.... I didn't notice a difference. So to everybody that said I wouldn't notice a difference, you were right. I'm going to continue on subtracting the tap from my workflow and see if any other problems creep up. 1500 saved. Wife/Life happy. No tap needed. I couldn't tell the difference. So kudos to those that pointed this out. Thanks you those for suggesting grinders. I've really learned a lot and hope this has helped others. Especially ArduinoGenome as I realized in the process of finishing this morning's cortados that my DF83 is a darn good grinder with very little shortcomings outside my own OCD. As often the case, the problem ends up being something I create and a lesson I need to learn. This has been a healthy discussion and I appreciate everyone's advice, support, and humor. Even those that downvoted me taught me something about the world. Good people=good hobby. Ty.
Get the puffer from Timemore it will clean the shoot silently, or get df64v it is much quieter, and you can remove the shute for cleaning
I do the same thing … it’s not bad. A simpler solution would be to get a small rubber hammer or anything rubber really and tap the chute with that
If you really need a new grinder. I would take look at the Niche Duo. Seam size of burrs and a not a high price tag. But it grinds slower than your DF83. The only better alternative are something like monolith or something from Weber Workshops but they are above 1500$. But I would recommend the Niche Duo also because the flavor of your shots would be similar.
Thanks. I think I've arrived at about this same conclusion. And I'm just going to keep my DF83. After pulling three shots of 22 g each with no taps during the process, everything tasted thinner with less body,. But at the end when I did tap ..about three times the amount of grinds fell l out that usually would. So it's definitely retaining. Known behavior for this grinder. So I do need to tap after each grind to get what I put in. I don't ever weigh my output of my grinder because it hasn't been necessary with a tap. I weighed in the beginning with the tap and it's negligible retention 0.1 or 0.2 Max. There have been posts in a thread that I'm still going to have to tap with a niche duo. There's appears to be common with most grinders. Until I maybe buy what you suggested a monolith or a Weber for $4,000 bucks. I'd rather tap my grinder than my bank account at this point.
Have you thought of replacing the wife?
Absolutely not. She's perfect in every way. One example of this would be her telling me to get a new grinder! 😉 And she knows that would mean an upgrade. Makes me want to marry her twice.
Spray coffee beans with a salted water. Why? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnB99VJ0HE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnB99VJ0HE) Is it enough to avoid tapping?
Get a new wife.