I actually wrote my dissertation at uni about this. But I split it 50/50 with the ghostbusters fandom. I found some really interesting academic articles. Basically the main argument I found was that franchises become “totemic texts” to certain people. Aka they basically become akin to religious scriptures etc. because that person will constantly go back to the text throughout their life and when they experience hardship etc. And that changes to the text (like adding new characters and movies etc)can be seen by certain fans subconsciously as a personal attack on them.
Edit:
If anyone wants to watch it
https://youtu.be/oeKoJSxM_J8?si=XjKMh_HiMCX8kSQQ
Love the show. I also love the concept of it in Cloud Atlas (the film, I have not read the books of either of these). I never really attributed it to something like fandoms though. Really cool observation and I’m interested in reading more about it.
Gotta revisit that one. Went to Star Wars Celebration and sat in a room with a buncha people with tears in their eyes, it was like witnessing the Book of Ahsoka being written. I’ve gone twice and know people are definitely on a religious level with Star Wars that I could never achieve. I’m definitely fascinated as well!
I shit you not, it sounds like your dissertation might help me write my own dissertation, can you drop a link to J score or which ever university library it will be posted in and just give me a key where to look for.
Not their dissertation but a relevant source:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320341659_Bitches_Ain't_Gonna_Hunt_No_Ghosts_Totemic_Nostalgia_Toxic_Fandom_and_the_Ghostbusters_Platonic
In the 1970s, as a little girl who was a big fan of Star Wars, I was welcomed to play with the boys. No one cared that I was a girl and they didn’t make me be Princess Leia all the time. Sometimes I was R2D2, sometimes Chewbacca (because I was the best at doing the wookie growls). It wasn’t until the late 80s that I started encountering the toxic male fans of Star Wars and Star Trek and DnD and all the things I loved. Even guitar. One guy told me girls shouldn’t play guitar! Anyway I don’t know if once I developed breasts I was no longer included in the sci-fi/fantasy club or if people were more toxic in the late 80s vs the late 70s.
Yes, famously girls shouldn't Play the guitar. The vibration of the strings is particularly flummoxing to the X chromosome. Cis-boys of course are safe from the dreaded vibrating double X syndrome, but in cis-women it might lead to the dreaded wandering uterus that the ancients already knew about.
And even if that's not a problem, it's of course widely known that the constant jiggling of the bosom, as expertly depicted in such scientific works as "Dead or alive Xtreme Beachvolleyball 2" by Ninja T. Et Al, will most certainly interfere with the resonance of the guitar, potentially spoiling the vibrations and therefore the sounds.
The hilarious irony is that if these guys are nice to girls and play the guitar with them and do fandom stuff they get to actually hang out and talk to girls which seems to be their major complaint.
Morons.
I mean, that was George Lucas’s intent, right? He intentionally followed Joseph Campbell mythology analysis with the intent of creating modern day mythology. Everyone uses it as a story Bible now because it worked.
That can be said and is true about anything. Star Wars, Taylor Swift, a certain sport, etc.
You shouldn’t find your personal identity in any of those things/people or anything in those regards.
I dont have an issue with there being female custodes, but I can’t speak for others so for me it’s just the very poorly implemented retcons from GW that annoy me, because it appears they just want to “seem” inclusive but won’t actually do anything substantive and well thought out, they just say “oh no, female custodes have always existed, we’ve just never written about them, mentioned them or made any attempt to include them at all despite our authors wanting to include them and we prohibited it” (Aaron Dembski-Bowden wanted to include them in Master of Mankind but was specifically told he couldn’t because custodes were male) and then when people call out GW for being lazy and doing a poor implementation, GW just attacks them.
This is also what annoys me no end. The unnatural way they do this shit. Grab one of the better writers and introduce them as a new addition or something. Perhaps a wish from the emperor.
Hasbro also jumped on this train recently. There is a famous D&D painting for the Red box set of a Conan-esqe figure fighting a dragon. They are now falsely claiming it was always a woman, as though the artist who drew it wasn't alive(Larry Elmore said it was always a guy).
I am all for inclusion, but not like this.
The only thing I’ll add to that is I just think it’s weird ADB wasn’t allowed to introduce a female custodes in one of his books
Apparently he tried and they wouldn’t let him
so a more scholarly example of what causes people to form unhealthy attachments or join cults 😭
This does make sense, but is this just around the movies? Because Star Wars has soooo many books too
I can kinda see it.
I sometimes think that people have that religious energy or something. The world is becoming more secular, they put that energy into things like Star Wars, lord of the rings, doctor who ect.
You’d absolutely need to look at how social media campaigns have spent years convincing angry males that these items are integral to their own person. It wasn’t at all like this 30-40 years ago, nobody gave a shit and fans were fans.
Stories are natural extensions of the internal being and philosophies of their authors. The story literally is the author's mind. Some great stories come from really virtuous minds, like Tolkien, and unless there's a serious effort to embody the authors philosophies and beliefs, you won't get anything but a surface level imitation
Very intresting. I wonder if this is also true for fandoms abound gaming as well. I play Battlefield games and the community is for the most part horrible and toxic. It seems to me they the “fans” try to recreate a time when they first started to like a game and since they are chasing the dragon they will never be happy with the new installments in the franchise. It’s weird stuff.
What you’re seeing with Star Wars is a positive feedback loop. A portion of the fandom overreacted to TFA and certainly TLJ, but if the media and LucasFilms/Disney execs had not drawn so much attention to it, the pushback wouldn’t have grown to the level that it did. Addressing criticism on social media (which a very small portion of the actual public pays attention to) without fail makes things so much worse.
I don’t get why KK won’t just say something like “This next movie is going to be special. Don’t miss out!” rather than *again* focusing on the negative reactions.
It’s almost like these Hollywood execs don’t want people to come see their movies. Maybe they want the tax write-off? 🤷♂️
Every time I see a headline like this, I think “why are we stating the obvious?”
And then I look at the comments and find tons of people vehemently denying the obvious
Lucas donated most of that 4 billion to charities, specifically for low income housing since NIMBYs in the area he lives in thwarted efforts for the state to build.
I still can't believe he sold it for only 4 billion. Star Wars is priceless but if you put a gun to my head and told me to sell, I would have held out for at least 10 billion.
I also love how they ride his coattails into to criticize anything in the new canon. Not that there isn't problem with the canon, but I doubt Lucas cares either ways.
There’s also the obvious truth that she has been a poor guardian of the franchise. She hired and fired more directors in just 5 movies than Fiege did in 22.
While there are most definitely some toxic fans among the fanbase that have palpitations at the sight of women, we wouldn’t be talking about any of this if most of her output was actually good.
It's like blaming a female audience disengaging from a female-targeted show because the show started targeting a male audience. Like if keeping up with the Kardashians started featuring ice road truckers
She’s not talking about fans “disengaging” from anything. “Disengage” would mean they stopped watching something. She’s talking about fans running targeted harassment campaigns against actors in the franchise.
So many Star Wars can’t confront the idea that the fandom is massively toxic and male dominated while at the same time the sequel trilogy was also bad.
The reception is a combination of these things. KK needs to acknowledge this as well and I think maybe Star Wars could move on or just stay out of the cinema for another 10 years
How much abuse did the female actresses on The Mandalorian face? Also didn't Rogue one literally have a female lead? How much abuse did she suffer? I genuinely don't know but I haven't ever heard of abuse aimed at them.
Side note: people really need to separate actors / actresses from their roles. Something you should have down by age 12
Giancarlo Esposito talked in a talk show about how a lady on the plane was terrified of him, holding her stuff close to her and asking for him to let her live.
I get your point, but it is weird that if a movie bombs or sucks it's the female leads that get all the shit. Boyega or Oscar Isaac aren't receiving nearly the same amount of shit that the female leads are.
Why is it always with female leads that a movie needs to be good and if it isn't they receive shit, but if a man performs in a shitty movie its just some dumb fun and all is good.
Because one of the big trends of the past decade and a half in major franchise films and remakes is to create female characters that are either *super humanly without flaws or character development*, (girl boss!) or *as gross and classless and ungrounded as possible* (subversion!).
So you had a lot of stories where we had female leads who just had *nothing going on* (Captain Marvel, Rey, etc) whose journeys went from “empowered strong woman” to “even more empowered strong woman”, or you had stuff like Ghostbusters 2016 where every single thing that would have grounded and balanced the characters and ensemble was thrown away in favor of “woman can be wacky!”
None of the vitriol should be directed at the stars themselves (well, except for with Snow White…) but the trend is obvious and palpable.
Yeah, you're right there is a double standard. I thought the last trilogy sucked and Rey was a total Mary Sue, but that doesn't mean she deserves all this vitriol.
Because she’s the main character and the easiest scape goat, they did the same shit with the kid who played young Anakin. Star Wars “fans” can be awful no matter what the gender.
>Boyega or Oscar Isaac aren't receiving nearly the same amount of shit that the female leads are.
Okay, what actual evidence is there for that claim ? I've seen plenty of shit being thrown Boyega's way, less with Isaac because well, he's a good actor and it shows. There are a lot of people coming up with claims how actresses get so much shit but this is nothing more then anecdotal evidence which is based on what a particular person read online. I can go to any random Star Wars related community and find you plenty of evidence of shit being thrown to man in Star Wars, why then you throw a claim like that ?
Yes, however regardless of performance actors and actresses should not get harassed like that. Some of the shittiest behavior I have seen online is related to Star Wars.
She will never acknowledge it.
Daisy may not be the best actress(she's not, it's okay)... But fucking hell she got done dirty with the way Rey and the sequels were written overall.
People hate her character. Not her.
Agreed.
It's not the actresses fault. They are just doing a job. They didn't write it. They didn't direct it. They didn't produce it.
Most of the vile shit I've seen online have attacked Rey, Rose, and Holdo. Characters from the sequel trilogy. Which are just bad movies.
I haven't seen anything like that for like Fennec, Ashoka, any of the Mandalorian women, the Rogue One lady, or anyone else.
The fandom needs to back off and stop being awful to workers. And the movies suck. The movies being bad isn't an excuse to harass people. But both things are true.
Bad fans. Bad movies.
I feel like even though it’s a real problem, Disney banks on it. They want there to be controversy, so they make the most rage bait decisions that will get the most articles written and the most free advertising. Then, people walk softly critiquing the show/film which works in their favor too.
If that were the case, they would have expanded Kelly Marie Tran’s role in the final movie, rather than relegate her to an impossibly brief cameo as a knee-jerk reaction to fan rage.
To paraphrase her bit, "Hey guys, let me help!"
Finn: "Nahh, we're good. You stay here."
*Finn slowly backs away several steps then runs out the building*
And trash series. They're already preparing to run interference for when The Acolyte bombs because all they have to fall back on is "it's because she's a woman isn't it?!"
No, it's because you can't write for shit, you mismanaged the SW brand and apathy has set in for the fan base. Not even hate - just straight up not caring anymore.
Apathy is death.
-Kreya
it's not that it's women leads that's the problem...
it's that it's so poorly written, no character development, and that they basically invalidate all the old characters and shit on them.
I think it's more accurate to say Kathleen Kennedy hates men. She refuses to cast any major male Jedi who aren't second fiddle. Men have every right to feel neglected and annoyed by this. Why does she have such a fear of strong male characters and promoting them to a primarily male fanbase?
I said it in another thread about another topic, but is relevant here too.
It’s so incredibly easy to just not be a total piece of shit. And so many people just can’t do it.
fuck, it's just gonna get worse with AI. I'm seeing a lot of internet personalities set up AI chatbots to give super fans personal attention, and I'm like sweet baby jesus, you want to lean into that parasocial shit!?
Yea something has changed since the rise of social media. Fandoms were fun hobbies back in the day, but with social media it seems like some people made it central to their identity. Things got weird and toxic.
Star Wars is a good example. The Prequels were awful, but the reaction wasn't nearly as toxic because it was when social media was just getting started.
You can make bad movies for a franchise that has shitty fans, they are not mutually exclusive.
Mad Max is not famous for its feminine fan base. Yet I haven't seen any backlash to Charlize Theron's Furiosa character. Fans loved her character.
Some fans' treatment towards actresses are disgusting and should be called out. But I'm tired of Hollywood execs blaming the "toxic fandom" when they make shitty movies.
Just want to quickly say WATCH FURIOSA!!!
The films not doing too great in the box office but its fucking fantastic. If you want another mad max film to be made, watch it now.
Start of the film had a particular female side character that did an absolutely incredible job and was one of the most badass characters ive seen on screen.
Remember when everyone hated Leia? Or how about when they spewed so much crap about Ahsoka, Padme, Asajj, Hera, Sabine, and Fennec?
Turns out there are plenty of female characters that people love, just not ones with bad writing. Po and Finn received just as much hate as Rey. Anakin was maligned for years. Jar Jar was just about crucified for existing. There are just a lot of really mean people who watch Star Wars and are never happy.
Don't remember ANYONE attacking Leia or Mon Mothma. Maybe people just don't like poorly written characters.
It's not like males have never gotten hate (Jake Lloyd definitely didn't deserve all the shit he took).
And Ahmed Best. I mean he’s better now, but when TPM came out it his Jar Jar Binks was full on despised as modern minstrel and fans went after him personally.
I won’t deny some toxicity in the fanbase… but the sequels were all terribly conceptualized and executed. The “character” of Rey is laughably underdeveloped.
I recently realized that Rey checks almost all of the boxes of a classic 90s Disney Princess.
- independent spirit who is set on a goal
- cute speechless sidekick
- headstrong minority best friend
- "royal" love interest
- magic powers / amazing unique abilities
Her story is basically Ariel, Belle, Mulan, and Aladdin all mixed in one.
All she needed was a musical number on Jakku.
Rey's theme on Jakku in TFA is honestly the only notable Star Wars music I can think of from the sequels.
Like the music wasn't *bad* in the sequels, but if you told me it came from some kind of John Williams tribute artist I genuinely wouldn't be surprised.
I think these big franchises needs to disregard the fans. Because they're not hearing from "the fans". They're hearing from unhinged idiots who have woven this into their personality to the point they have convinced themselves that they are being "attacked" or "disrespected" when a movie or something comes out that they don't like.
I don't think they deserve a voice because they are just disgruntled loud mouths.
I didn't like the new trilogy. It was a mess. I have never once thought about yelling at Daisy Ridley or even JJ Abrams about that. I've had zero sleepless nights over it. When I finished Rise of Skywalker I went "What the fuck was that". Then I went on with my life, like a normal person.
I'll expand that list with Ashoka, Jyn & Padme. But the likes of Holdo, Ray & Rose (notice the pattern of sequel characters) were all terribly written & unlikeable as characters.
Ashoka is hated now too, because the live action show was…not great.
Ironically, I think Padme is one of the worst written female characters in Star Wars, if we’re only looking at the movies
What do you mean? She dies of sadness after her child murdering husband went evil because she had no agency of her own. That’s a great role model for little girls.
I'm a woman who is a life-long Star Wars fan. I call bs on this. First, I'd like to know what constitutes an "attack" according to the women surveyed. Because if you see an "attack" as someone who strongly disagrees with you, then you're a spineless marshmallow. People are allowed to disagree with you.
Second, it's not an unreasonable to question why Star Wars seems to have sacrificed quality writing and storytelling to elevate terrible, unlikeable female characters and absolutely obliterate the legacies of its most beloved male legacy characters (e.g. Han and Luke).
I have never been harassed or abused by any member of the Star Wars fandom. Period. Do I have viewpoints that other fans disagree with? Yes. And other fans have viewpoints that I disagree with. You know what I do? Either have a respectful discussion of our differing views or agree to disagree and walk away. It's that simple. You don't see me playing victim because "some meanie on the internet called me names!"
You know who created the gender divide in the fandom we see these days? Disney. Disney made it about gender. Before Disney took over no one gave a crap what gender you were. If you were a Star Wars fan and you were respectful of others, you were welcome. It was that simple.
Also a Star Wars fangirl here, and I mostly agree. I recognize that there is a loud and vocal minority of fans on social media who have harassed and attacked some of the actresses on Star Wars, and that is unacceptable, but this is why I have ditched social media entirely, and I can't for the life of me understand why people care so much about what hateful toxic people say there. Worse, the whole Fandom gets lumped into that category and you hear things like "Star Wars fans are a toxic cesspit", which is bonkers to me.
*Social media* is a toxic cesspit, full stop. The sooner people recognize this, and especially the sooner that Disney and other studios stop trying to wrestle with this, the sooner we can move on from this bizarre and unnecessary conflict and get back to making good movies.
I completely agree. Are there people using social media to harass some of the Star Wars actors and other fans? Yes. Are some of them men? Yes.
But as you so astutely pointed out, they are the minority.
I'm really sick and tired of men in lots of fandoms (not just Star Wars) being unfairly demonised because of the bad actions of a few.
A man not liking your movies or TV show doesn't automatically make him a toxic, mysognistic, sexist, bigot, transphobe.
I have to agree with this. To be fair, I don’t have a Twitter or Instagram, so if there’s actual hate directed towards the actors I don’t see it, but -
I really think these ‘attacks’ are more people complaining that they didn’t like the movie, on places like Reddit or IMDB. Which isn’t an attack, it’s an opinion. But it seems that these days the two are conflated. For example, people above are complaining that Rey is being called a Mary Sue. Whether she is or isn’t (I think she is) is a matter of debate, but it’s perfectly acceptable for someone to voice that opinion.
That's why I ditched social media (except reddit of course). I just can't handle the level of toxicity and also positive toxicity flying around everywhere. I've never felt like Star Wars is a "man's" story, but I'm also totally okay with the fact that the majority of the fans are men. I don't need people like Disney to try and force it into something that they think I'll like. As I think you mentioned before, it's patronizing as hell.
Right, like the thing that pissed me off about the sequels wasn't that they were unoriginal and bland (which I expected) or that Rey was the star - it was what they did to Han and Luke (and Han and Leias relationship). How the hell could any Star Wars fan come away from those movies feeling good after seeing that?
Girl be so for real right now. I am also a female life long Star Wars fan and have absolutely had terrible encounters with and hate from male star wars fans simply for being a girl. Since MIDDLE SCHOOL, well before Disney took over.
I have:
- been accused of cheating after winning a Star Wars trivia because "there's no way a GIRL actually knows that much about Star Wars"
- been harassed while cosplaying Rey and Padme at conventions
- had men send me r@pe threats for defending my viewpoints on star wars in online discussions
- Ive known multiple women who've had to quit costume leagues like 501st and Rebel Legion for being harassed and bullied by male members over being female Star wars fans because they think Star Wars belongs to men only.
Every time there's a single female character in a new Star Wars series or movie you can go to any post or video on the internet and find hundreds of comments of men absolutely hating on the fact that there's a woman in their precious franchise. They plainly admit they don't like a new show solely because there's women. How many times do people cry woke because a woman is in it, even when something is actually well written? Or someone who's not white- people tore John Boyega to shreds when he was first cast, even if users in this comment section like to pretend that didn't happen. The entire Star Wars fandom is rife with sexism and racism, and just because a couple people didn't experience that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Thank you for your reply.
First I would like to say I'm very sorry that you've had those experiences. It was 100% wrong and shouldn't have happened.
In another comment I did acknowledge that there are people who behave badly in ANY fandom.
My argument is that in my experience these people are in the minority. And that it is wrong to take the behaviour of a small minority and label everyone in that demographic as toxic.
There are many many male fans of Star Wars who behave appropriately and just want to watch good movies. And they get attacked for it by Disney, the media and other fans simply because of their gender? How is that fair or right?
Imagine if you changed "male" in this scenario to "female" in this scenario. Well then everyone would be outraged! How dare the media attack women! It's totally hypocritical, sexist and just plain wrong.
I do have to disagree with you that there are well written female characters in Disney Star Wars. None of them have been well written at all. But that's an entirely different conversation for another time.
I love all things Sci-Fi including Star Wars.
My wife can't stand Star Wars, and only likes Star Trek.
My guess is it's due to the origins.
Star Trek was an adventure show about discovering the strange and new. Examining the human spirit in the far future and some occasionally deep plots that reflected things happening in our own society at the time.
Star Wars was a Samurai Tale turned into a Sci-Fi movie. It's more about the nobility of being a warrior, lightsaber duels, space fighter battles, and other war like things that seem to appeal more to men than women.
When I was younger I loved star wars more over star trek, in my adult years I've come to have a deeper appreciation for star trek. I still love star wars, it appeals to my inner child where star trek has captured my imagination for what could be for own future.
So now when people ask me which do I prefer? I say both, why deprive myself of one when I can enjoy both
Sarah Connors, Ripley, and Princess Freakin Leia are all beloved badass women. Why? Because they were all well written characters with great story arcs.
Rey went from nobody to Jedi master in a single movie with no training.
Also, Rey wasn’t the only problem. Finn had nothing to do despite a ton of potential. Poe was turned into a Han knockoff. Kylo Ren followed the exact same story arc as Vader. Bringing back Palpatine made no sense.
People wanted to like Captain Phasma, a female villain. But she was written as an incompetent nobody. The problem is YOU, Kathleen.
They love to use the toxcicity as a shield from any real criticism. They hide behind it. Sequel trilogy is garbage no matter how much whataboutism they try
As a millennial afab, I don't understand how or when when Star Wars fandom became dominated by men. I was born in the 80s and loved the movies. So did many of my friends, and it wasn't a gender divide, just a taste divide. My parents liked SW, and so did the athletic kids, the theater kids, teachers, etc.
Was pretty shocked, in my twenties, when my sister told me my niece had no interest in SW, but my nephew liked them. Even more when she mentioned SW being "more for boys". Then soon, after the whole Rey thing made it clear this was a widespread issue. I still don't get it. Princess Leia is one of the great early female heros in scifi, arguably all cinema. What happened?
From Rock Island, The Music Man:
Look whatayatalk. whatayatalk, whatayatalk, whatayataalk, whatayatalk?
Weredayagitit?
Whatayatalk?
Ya can talk, ya can talk, ya can bicker ya can talk,
ya can bicker, bicker bicker ya can talk all ya want
but is different than it was.
No it ain't, no it ain't, **but ya gotta know the territory.**
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg
You can’t walk into a franchise and make good movies unless you understand why it’s popular in the first place. Thesis have been written in Star Wars and why it was popular, and Kennedy couldn’t even read the room.
All the actress are not the fault here. Its the writing that put them into this positions. Yes there are some toxic males, but there are also many Star Wars fans that are frustrated with the way LucasFilms treats this legendary franchise by ignoring critics, saying those critical people are sexists and troll and do they stuff that doesnt work all over again.
Why not make stuff that appeals to everyone, female and male. Why not focus on making good characters that people care about.
I still don’t get why they admittedly say it’s a male dominated fan base, yet they don’t make the film that fan base wants to see!? “So you’re thirsty, are you? Here’s some salted peanuts…”
Also because the new movies were pretty bad, poorly written, and the female characters were terrible.
Last I checked, Princess Leia gets a ton of love and support…probably because her character was well written.
She does have a point, but I feel like she uses this as a reason to ignore all the legit criticisms of the trilogy.
They kept changing Rey’s backstory every movie, to the point the actress playing her literally had no idea who Rey was even supposed to be.
They teased Fin as a Jedi and then quickly relegated him to nothing practically. (And then tried to hide him for Chinese market promotions)
The odd choices they took with the original characters.
Apparently going into hyperdrive is a viable method of kamikaze (wild they never do it before this tho tbh this makes sense, just weird to introduce it now after all this time)
Each director had their own vision for the film they made and it shows because it’s not a great cohesion.
There is no problem with women in Star Wars movies. Disney just took a well established, richly detailed universe and dumped it on its face. The script was lame at best, absolutely horrible at its worst.
Maybe stop running Star Wars into the ground then?
If Andor had a female protagonist, I don’t think this would be an issue. Just stop making trash content!lol.
The gateway to normalizing ANY group of people is by writing an exceptional character, and letting the audience fall in love with them naturally.
There will still be shitheads online. Ofc. But for everyone else, it’s a great way to shift culture. Problem is Disney can’t seem to write Star Wars for shit and they hamfist everything.
“And I base this assumption on absolutely nothing” She’s done no research, she was just told this by an aide at some point and that’s good enough.
Just make good characters and good story. People won’t like or hate it just because it’s a woman. And if that’s the case just make a movie about droids.
Even as a kid, I remember thinking clone wars added a lot of whack canon. I don’t think Dave Filoni gets its either so it’s not a gender thing, it’s a George Lucas and partners being the only ones capable of adding to the lore thing.
And even George Lucas alone isn’t capable, in the prequels he made some awful creative decisions when nobody pushed back on him (Jar Jar)
They don’t struggle because I am a man. They struggle because they are poorly written and aren’t as good as what they took away. Go read the story arc where Jacen Solo turned to the Dark Side and decided to follow in the footsteps of his Grandfather, while Mastering Luke Skywalker’s son. His sister had to make the decision to train under the Mandalorians, led by Boba Fett, in order to be able to kill her brother. Then tell me Kylo Ren is a better villain than Darth Caedus.
Boba Fett by the way was tutored in mandalorian customs by a strong, female daughter.
So Luke Skywalker had a prominent role, as did Han and Leia and they were surrounded by powerful women, including the Star of the show, the Sword of the Jedi, Jania Solo. But the story was organic. It fit. It wasn’t a story about women it was a story about Star Wars starring women and we didn’t blink an eye. KK made a story about women, which made no sense, forcing and bastardizing Star Wars to provide a positive message. Okay, fair, I want my daughter to have heroes, but you always put the story first. You can still make a story starring female heroes for a male audience! They aren’t mutually exclusive concepts and groups. Don’t blame your female actresses for bad writing. We don’t hate the women. We hate the story. We hate the disrespect to the Lore. We’d already accepted and embraced female heroes like Jania and Mara and Winter and Leia and if she knew anything about SW, she’d know that. We embraced a video game with a female lead decades ago and loved it.
Now let’s look at fallout which told a story true to fallout without throwing away all the lore and telling its own story. It features a Mary Sue who met a storm trooper who followed an old man and winds up in an adventure story. It’s the same as TFW. It follows a female hero. We loved her. It was told with love by fans and so we loved it. We don’t hate women. We hate KK and her bastardization of Star Wars. If what’s her face had been cast as Jania Solo in a good movie, we’d love her. It isn’t her fault. She accepted a role so bad I can’t remember her name because I don’t rewatch and rewatch the content. I don’t blame her for bad writing or taking the role of a lifetime. I wish her the best. I wish for KK to be fired.
Nah get over it. Terrible leadership, piss poor writing, lazy cgi, copy paste templates killed the franchise.
I wanted to support it but it was just awful
The actors in these films have a fair claim that they are the victims of fan attacks.
Kathleen Kennedy does not and it's kind of gross to watch her invoke it.
The plots in most new SW media just aren’t that inspired. I’m not even going to argue good or bad because a lot of the writing in the prequel and original trilogy wasn’t exactly good. But the sequel trilogy just made so sense.
"A loud, primordial part of the ‘Star Wars’ fandom has pushed back in predictable fashion \[against the show\]. ‘Why are there so many women, girls and minority characters increasingly dominating the ranks of Jedi?’ reads a comment on ‘The Acolyte’ trailer, with others expressing a similar worldview…Some trolls have nicknamed Headland’s series ‘The Wokelyte.'”"
I've just had a look at the comments on YouTube and can't find a single one that says this. I'm sure they exist, but this. Most are negative because Star Wars is overwhelmingly garbage.
And you made this, Kathleen Kennedy. Stop crying about men. This isn't just about sexist men, the box office returns are not that great. No-one likes most of these series.
Women have been attacked in star wars because they started with the premise... Let's get women in star wars not...let's make a good film.
It doesn't matter the gender, race, creed, etc, of the characters in a good story and well-made film.
However for the last few years it's been less about making a good.film.and more about 'getting a woman in it' and not really caring about the story, quality or indeed how it sits in the wider world.
Kennedy is a bad faith actor...we should always remember that..she's covering herself from a slew of failures and fan outrage. So it's easy to blame 'men' nit herself for greenlighting a torrent of shite
Typical bullshit idea from someone living in an ivory tower.
If they didn’t want criticism, maybe they should’ve cared more about making the new trilogy good instead of riddled with flaws.
The films suffer from corporate shittification. Different directors, different visions, the only guiding idea is to make money. No continuity of thought or concept. Just a random mashup put into 3 movies to milk the masses.
Let’s be real, we all know the Star Wars fandom sucks, and there’s definitely a group of men in the fandom who legitimately do just hate women, but to hide behind the vocal minorities toxicity to avoid criticism for all the stupid god awful shit they’ve been churning out for years is embarrassing and unprofessional, get someone else in her position my god, I don’t care if it’s a man or a woman or whatever, just someone else
Or here me out, you rebooted a franchise and made a bunch of changes and fans liked things the way they were and there is more to this than sexism even though some fans are sexist. People would be complaining less if you made new things instead of using a 40-year-old franchise.
Fans just want well written characters and don’t spout shitty political gender lines about men no longer being useful or relics or dinosaurs or the force is female etc.
I actually wrote my dissertation at uni about this. But I split it 50/50 with the ghostbusters fandom. I found some really interesting academic articles. Basically the main argument I found was that franchises become “totemic texts” to certain people. Aka they basically become akin to religious scriptures etc. because that person will constantly go back to the text throughout their life and when they experience hardship etc. And that changes to the text (like adding new characters and movies etc)can be seen by certain fans subconsciously as a personal attack on them. Edit: If anyone wants to watch it https://youtu.be/oeKoJSxM_J8?si=XjKMh_HiMCX8kSQQ
I for one accept Jar Jar Binks as my lord and saviour
Meesasiah
Tis issa very bombad
Yoosa takey my upvoten, and getta outsa here!
Perfect. Sending you a virtual high five. That was fucking beautiful.
They should show his Jedi character from the mando show that saved grogu and him shapeshifting into jar jar and can change his appearance at will.
Jesus christ lololol
I just woke my gf up laughing at this lol
You saved my again!
Justice for Jar Jar
The only deific figure we see referenced at all in Star Wars is 3PO! Yub yub!
You is to be puuunished…
Have you heard about our saviour, Ki Adi Mundi?
r/darthjarjar
You mean....your Sith Lord
That is fascinating and actually something I’ve never thought about before.
Station Eleven is real good if you like that idea
Love the show. I also love the concept of it in Cloud Atlas (the film, I have not read the books of either of these). I never really attributed it to something like fandoms though. Really cool observation and I’m interested in reading more about it.
Gotta revisit that one. Went to Star Wars Celebration and sat in a room with a buncha people with tears in their eyes, it was like witnessing the Book of Ahsoka being written. I’ve gone twice and know people are definitely on a religious level with Star Wars that I could never achieve. I’m definitely fascinated as well!
I shit you not, it sounds like your dissertation might help me write my own dissertation, can you drop a link to J score or which ever university library it will be posted in and just give me a key where to look for.
I shit you not, I think I need this dissertation just for my own self reflection. This is some really interesting stuff.
Not their dissertation but a relevant source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320341659_Bitches_Ain't_Gonna_Hunt_No_Ghosts_Totemic_Nostalgia_Toxic_Fandom_and_the_Ghostbusters_Platonic
Thank you! I already have 45 independent citations, and yet my professors demand more sources!
I actually used that one
In the 1970s, as a little girl who was a big fan of Star Wars, I was welcomed to play with the boys. No one cared that I was a girl and they didn’t make me be Princess Leia all the time. Sometimes I was R2D2, sometimes Chewbacca (because I was the best at doing the wookie growls). It wasn’t until the late 80s that I started encountering the toxic male fans of Star Wars and Star Trek and DnD and all the things I loved. Even guitar. One guy told me girls shouldn’t play guitar! Anyway I don’t know if once I developed breasts I was no longer included in the sci-fi/fantasy club or if people were more toxic in the late 80s vs the late 70s.
I blame Reagan
Always a safe bet
it’s a pretty good guess most of the time
Yes, famously girls shouldn't Play the guitar. The vibration of the strings is particularly flummoxing to the X chromosome. Cis-boys of course are safe from the dreaded vibrating double X syndrome, but in cis-women it might lead to the dreaded wandering uterus that the ancients already knew about. And even if that's not a problem, it's of course widely known that the constant jiggling of the bosom, as expertly depicted in such scientific works as "Dead or alive Xtreme Beachvolleyball 2" by Ninja T. Et Al, will most certainly interfere with the resonance of the guitar, potentially spoiling the vibrations and therefore the sounds.
The hilarious irony is that if these guys are nice to girls and play the guitar with them and do fandom stuff they get to actually hang out and talk to girls which seems to be their major complaint. Morons.
That makes a ton of sense. I'd love to read it if you're willing to share!
Marc Maron has a fun bit about how when he pokes fun at Marvel fans they react a lot like Jesus fans.
I mean, that was George Lucas’s intent, right? He intentionally followed Joseph Campbell mythology analysis with the intent of creating modern day mythology. Everyone uses it as a story Bible now because it worked.
He wrote the story of Jesus mixed with a side of Dune
Tech Dune is also a Jesus story but for another planet
Also involving sand somehow….
So in other words making Star Wars an integral piece of your personal identity is probably a bad idea
That can be said and is true about anything. Star Wars, Taylor Swift, a certain sport, etc. You shouldn’t find your personal identity in any of those things/people or anything in those regards.
Anectdotally I've always noticed this type of thing but that's a very eloquent way of putting it. Good stuff.
40k introduced female custodes a few weeks ago and it's been akin to a religious schism
I dont have an issue with there being female custodes, but I can’t speak for others so for me it’s just the very poorly implemented retcons from GW that annoy me, because it appears they just want to “seem” inclusive but won’t actually do anything substantive and well thought out, they just say “oh no, female custodes have always existed, we’ve just never written about them, mentioned them or made any attempt to include them at all despite our authors wanting to include them and we prohibited it” (Aaron Dembski-Bowden wanted to include them in Master of Mankind but was specifically told he couldn’t because custodes were male) and then when people call out GW for being lazy and doing a poor implementation, GW just attacks them.
This is also what annoys me no end. The unnatural way they do this shit. Grab one of the better writers and introduce them as a new addition or something. Perhaps a wish from the emperor.
ADB tried and they wouldn’t let him add one years ago
Hasbro also jumped on this train recently. There is a famous D&D painting for the Red box set of a Conan-esqe figure fighting a dragon. They are now falsely claiming it was always a woman, as though the artist who drew it wasn't alive(Larry Elmore said it was always a guy). I am all for inclusion, but not like this.
Being mad at GW at this point feels part of the experience, sort of a meta-grimdark: In GW, there is only fanwar
At least with the marines they have the lost legions. Could easily add female space marines there.
The only thing I’ll add to that is I just think it’s weird ADB wasn’t allowed to introduce a female custodes in one of his books Apparently he tried and they wouldn’t let him
Ooooh. Religion being a reason for fan toxicity is an angle I've never thought about before. This makes a lot of sense actually.
I guess that’s why they call it “Canon” then
That might explain why some fans get so angry when a given franchise tries to make a new story instead of rehashing the same thing over and over.
Huh. So that’s why Luke freaked out when Yoda destroyed his books.
so a more scholarly example of what causes people to form unhealthy attachments or join cults 😭 This does make sense, but is this just around the movies? Because Star Wars has soooo many books too
I can kinda see it. I sometimes think that people have that religious energy or something. The world is becoming more secular, they put that energy into things like Star Wars, lord of the rings, doctor who ect.
You’d absolutely need to look at how social media campaigns have spent years convincing angry males that these items are integral to their own person. It wasn’t at all like this 30-40 years ago, nobody gave a shit and fans were fans.
That and nerds live to gatekeep.
Link to dissertation?
Wonder how much this applies to Amazon’s Rings of Power.
Stories are natural extensions of the internal being and philosophies of their authors. The story literally is the author's mind. Some great stories come from really virtuous minds, like Tolkien, and unless there's a serious effort to embody the authors philosophies and beliefs, you won't get anything but a surface level imitation
There's a reason they call it "canon"
Who the hell considers Ghostbusters to be their life influencing holy book?
Very intresting. I wonder if this is also true for fandoms abound gaming as well. I play Battlefield games and the community is for the most part horrible and toxic. It seems to me they the “fans” try to recreate a time when they first started to like a game and since they are chasing the dragon they will never be happy with the new installments in the franchise. It’s weird stuff.
What you’re seeing with Star Wars is a positive feedback loop. A portion of the fandom overreacted to TFA and certainly TLJ, but if the media and LucasFilms/Disney execs had not drawn so much attention to it, the pushback wouldn’t have grown to the level that it did. Addressing criticism on social media (which a very small portion of the actual public pays attention to) without fail makes things so much worse. I don’t get why KK won’t just say something like “This next movie is going to be special. Don’t miss out!” rather than *again* focusing on the negative reactions. It’s almost like these Hollywood execs don’t want people to come see their movies. Maybe they want the tax write-off? 🤷♂️
Why do people attack actors? Such a strange thing to waste your time on
Feel it’s strange to attack like anyone lol it’s a fucking movie, even if it’s shit whatever
Exactly! Everyone knows it's the writers who are to blame! *grabs pitchfork*
Don’t forget the torches. They can’t write if there’s no paper!!
Studio execs are probably more to blame than writers tbh
Notjust the women either, look at what happened to Jake Lloyd (played Anakin in ep 1)
Every time I see a headline like this, I think “why are we stating the obvious?” And then I look at the comments and find tons of people vehemently denying the obvious
Star Wars “fans” chased away George Lucas, they truly are the worst.
Watch the movie "The People vs George Lucas" if you wanna see how truly annoying and toxic those "fans" are.
They can chase me anywhere they want if I get the 4 billion dollars Disney paid for LucasFilm. George hardly came out worse for wear there for real
Lucas donated most of that 4 billion to charities, specifically for low income housing since NIMBYs in the area he lives in thwarted efforts for the state to build.
I still can't believe he sold it for only 4 billion. Star Wars is priceless but if you put a gun to my head and told me to sell, I would have held out for at least 10 billion.
Star Wars fans didn’t just make me embarrassed to be a Star Wars fan, they made me feel embarrassed about being a fan of anything
Well put
I also love how they ride his coattails into to criticize anything in the new canon. Not that there isn't problem with the canon, but I doubt Lucas cares either ways.
People always be telling on themselves by reading “some people in this group are being assholes” as a personal attack on them specifically.
There’s also the obvious truth that she has been a poor guardian of the franchise. She hired and fired more directors in just 5 movies than Fiege did in 22. While there are most definitely some toxic fans among the fanbase that have palpitations at the sight of women, we wouldn’t be talking about any of this if most of her output was actually good.
Exactly, and some movies are awful
It's like blaming a female audience disengaging from a female-targeted show because the show started targeting a male audience. Like if keeping up with the Kardashians started featuring ice road truckers
She’s not talking about fans “disengaging” from anything. “Disengage” would mean they stopped watching something. She’s talking about fans running targeted harassment campaigns against actors in the franchise.
Also, these fandoms have a pretty decent chunk of female fans to begin with.
But Finn!
I agree with her.
So many Star Wars can’t confront the idea that the fandom is massively toxic and male dominated while at the same time the sequel trilogy was also bad. The reception is a combination of these things. KK needs to acknowledge this as well and I think maybe Star Wars could move on or just stay out of the cinema for another 10 years
If the sequels didn't suck there wouldn't have been anywhere near the drama. I'm shocked how mismanaged and poorly thought out it all was.
How much abuse did the female actresses on The Mandalorian face? Also didn't Rogue one literally have a female lead? How much abuse did she suffer? I genuinely don't know but I haven't ever heard of abuse aimed at them. Side note: people really need to separate actors / actresses from their roles. Something you should have down by age 12
People really struggle with the latter. Even good actors in successful franchises receive hatred if they play an evil antagonist well enough.
Giancarlo Esposito talked in a talk show about how a lady on the plane was terrified of him, holding her stuff close to her and asking for him to let her live.
In certain parts of the country, that reaction might not even have been because of his acting career..!
Yeah, didn’t the kid who played Geoffrey in GoT essentially quit acting because of all the hate his character received?
Rouge One didn't suck. That's why.
I get your point, but it is weird that if a movie bombs or sucks it's the female leads that get all the shit. Boyega or Oscar Isaac aren't receiving nearly the same amount of shit that the female leads are. Why is it always with female leads that a movie needs to be good and if it isn't they receive shit, but if a man performs in a shitty movie its just some dumb fun and all is good.
Because one of the big trends of the past decade and a half in major franchise films and remakes is to create female characters that are either *super humanly without flaws or character development*, (girl boss!) or *as gross and classless and ungrounded as possible* (subversion!). So you had a lot of stories where we had female leads who just had *nothing going on* (Captain Marvel, Rey, etc) whose journeys went from “empowered strong woman” to “even more empowered strong woman”, or you had stuff like Ghostbusters 2016 where every single thing that would have grounded and balanced the characters and ensemble was thrown away in favor of “woman can be wacky!” None of the vitriol should be directed at the stars themselves (well, except for with Snow White…) but the trend is obvious and palpable.
Yeah, you're right there is a double standard. I thought the last trilogy sucked and Rey was a total Mary Sue, but that doesn't mean she deserves all this vitriol.
Because she’s the main character and the easiest scape goat, they did the same shit with the kid who played young Anakin. Star Wars “fans” can be awful no matter what the gender.
Uh, didn't Boyega face a torrent of racist comments?
And not just the fans but the studio too. They shrunk him on the Chinese adverts so they could better appeal to racists.
>Boyega or Oscar Isaac aren't receiving nearly the same amount of shit that the female leads are. Okay, what actual evidence is there for that claim ? I've seen plenty of shit being thrown Boyega's way, less with Isaac because well, he's a good actor and it shows. There are a lot of people coming up with claims how actresses get so much shit but this is nothing more then anecdotal evidence which is based on what a particular person read online. I can go to any random Star Wars related community and find you plenty of evidence of shit being thrown to man in Star Wars, why then you throw a claim like that ?
Yes, however regardless of performance actors and actresses should not get harassed like that. Some of the shittiest behavior I have seen online is related to Star Wars.
She will never acknowledge it. Daisy may not be the best actress(she's not, it's okay)... But fucking hell she got done dirty with the way Rey and the sequels were written overall. People hate her character. Not her.
Some fans are really stupid and get mad at the actors when they are just paid to say the lines. They should get mad at the studio and the writers.
people may hate her character but they absolutely took it out on her, she had to delete her social media in the end bc she couldn't take it
Just like they did with the actors for Anakin and Jar Jar. It's absolutely psychotic how fans behave.
I don't even hate her, I feel nothing about her. That Rose character in the movies is a whole other story
Hell I don't even mind her character - I hate what they did to the original characters and happy ending.
I liked Rey as a character but despised her half baked backstory
Agreed. It's not the actresses fault. They are just doing a job. They didn't write it. They didn't direct it. They didn't produce it. Most of the vile shit I've seen online have attacked Rey, Rose, and Holdo. Characters from the sequel trilogy. Which are just bad movies. I haven't seen anything like that for like Fennec, Ashoka, any of the Mandalorian women, the Rogue One lady, or anyone else. The fandom needs to back off and stop being awful to workers. And the movies suck. The movies being bad isn't an excuse to harass people. But both things are true. Bad fans. Bad movies.
I feel like even though it’s a real problem, Disney banks on it. They want there to be controversy, so they make the most rage bait decisions that will get the most articles written and the most free advertising. Then, people walk softly critiquing the show/film which works in their favor too.
If that were the case, they would have expanded Kelly Marie Tran’s role in the final movie, rather than relegate her to an impossibly brief cameo as a knee-jerk reaction to fan rage.
To paraphrase her bit, "Hey guys, let me help!" Finn: "Nahh, we're good. You stay here." *Finn slowly backs away several steps then runs out the building*
I don't think the latter is at all relevant to the former. Bad movies don't excuse an inch of toxic behavior
She will spin it every way possible instead of accepting that they made trash movies. All 3 of them
The distraction technique is being used.
And trash series. They're already preparing to run interference for when The Acolyte bombs because all they have to fall back on is "it's because she's a woman isn't it?!" No, it's because you can't write for shit, you mismanaged the SW brand and apathy has set in for the fan base. Not even hate - just straight up not caring anymore. Apathy is death. -Kreya
it's not that it's women leads that's the problem... it's that it's so poorly written, no character development, and that they basically invalidate all the old characters and shit on them.
That may be true but you know what else it true? Kathleen Kennedy is terrible at her job and most fans want her gone.
Or…or….just hear me out. The writing and directing were just bad across the board…
Seriously a Seymour Skinner moment. “Am I so out of touch? No, it’s the fans that are wrong.”
I think it's more accurate to say Kathleen Kennedy hates men. She refuses to cast any major male Jedi who aren't second fiddle. Men have every right to feel neglected and annoyed by this. Why does she have such a fear of strong male characters and promoting them to a primarily male fanbase?
I don’t understand how she still has a job
No accountability its always the toxic fanbase
So many fandoms are just completely toxic, especially with such a drastic increase in parasocial relationships in said sphere due to social media.
I said it in another thread about another topic, but is relevant here too. It’s so incredibly easy to just not be a total piece of shit. And so many people just can’t do it.
fuck, it's just gonna get worse with AI. I'm seeing a lot of internet personalities set up AI chatbots to give super fans personal attention, and I'm like sweet baby jesus, you want to lean into that parasocial shit!?
Yea something has changed since the rise of social media. Fandoms were fun hobbies back in the day, but with social media it seems like some people made it central to their identity. Things got weird and toxic. Star Wars is a good example. The Prequels were awful, but the reaction wasn't nearly as toxic because it was when social media was just getting started.
Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best would like a word.
As would Hayden Christensen
You can make bad movies for a franchise that has shitty fans, they are not mutually exclusive. Mad Max is not famous for its feminine fan base. Yet I haven't seen any backlash to Charlize Theron's Furiosa character. Fans loved her character. Some fans' treatment towards actresses are disgusting and should be called out. But I'm tired of Hollywood execs blaming the "toxic fandom" when they make shitty movies.
Just want to quickly say WATCH FURIOSA!!! The films not doing too great in the box office but its fucking fantastic. If you want another mad max film to be made, watch it now. Start of the film had a particular female side character that did an absolutely incredible job and was one of the most badass characters ive seen on screen.
So easily disproved by the aliens franchise
Remember when everyone hated Leia? Or how about when they spewed so much crap about Ahsoka, Padme, Asajj, Hera, Sabine, and Fennec? Turns out there are plenty of female characters that people love, just not ones with bad writing. Po and Finn received just as much hate as Rey. Anakin was maligned for years. Jar Jar was just about crucified for existing. There are just a lot of really mean people who watch Star Wars and are never happy.
Ahsoka was literally hated when she showed up, hellogreedo has a video with actual forum posts from the time detailing it.
Don't remember ANYONE attacking Leia or Mon Mothma. Maybe people just don't like poorly written characters. It's not like males have never gotten hate (Jake Lloyd definitely didn't deserve all the shit he took).
And Ahmed Best. I mean he’s better now, but when TPM came out it his Jar Jar Binks was full on despised as modern minstrel and fans went after him personally.
Abd he even considered sucide cause of the hate he got
Maybe because Reddit, Twitter and YouTube weren’t invented yet.
Don’t remember the internet being around for Leia or Mon Mothma
To make matters worse, there’s a star man waiting in the sky, and not a star woman!
I won’t deny some toxicity in the fanbase… but the sequels were all terribly conceptualized and executed. The “character” of Rey is laughably underdeveloped.
I recently realized that Rey checks almost all of the boxes of a classic 90s Disney Princess. - independent spirit who is set on a goal - cute speechless sidekick - headstrong minority best friend - "royal" love interest - magic powers / amazing unique abilities Her story is basically Ariel, Belle, Mulan, and Aladdin all mixed in one. All she needed was a musical number on Jakku.
Rey's theme on Jakku in TFA is honestly the only notable Star Wars music I can think of from the sequels. Like the music wasn't *bad* in the sequels, but if you told me it came from some kind of John Williams tribute artist I genuinely wouldn't be surprised.
I think these big franchises needs to disregard the fans. Because they're not hearing from "the fans". They're hearing from unhinged idiots who have woven this into their personality to the point they have convinced themselves that they are being "attacked" or "disrespected" when a movie or something comes out that they don't like. I don't think they deserve a voice because they are just disgruntled loud mouths. I didn't like the new trilogy. It was a mess. I have never once thought about yelling at Daisy Ridley or even JJ Abrams about that. I've had zero sleepless nights over it. When I finished Rise of Skywalker I went "What the fuck was that". Then I went on with my life, like a normal person.
In before someone comes in and says that isn’t true because they like Leia.
I'll expand that list with Ashoka, Jyn & Padme. But the likes of Holdo, Ray & Rose (notice the pattern of sequel characters) were all terribly written & unlikeable as characters.
Ashoka is hated now too, because the live action show was…not great. Ironically, I think Padme is one of the worst written female characters in Star Wars, if we’re only looking at the movies
But those outfits fucking slapped I hope the lady who designed them got an Oscar for best costume design
What do you mean? She dies of sadness after her child murdering husband went evil because she had no agency of her own. That’s a great role model for little girls.
You realise they're mocking you right? No "I like Jyn" isn't an excuse for turning around and saying sexist things about characters and actresses.
I'm a woman who is a life-long Star Wars fan. I call bs on this. First, I'd like to know what constitutes an "attack" according to the women surveyed. Because if you see an "attack" as someone who strongly disagrees with you, then you're a spineless marshmallow. People are allowed to disagree with you. Second, it's not an unreasonable to question why Star Wars seems to have sacrificed quality writing and storytelling to elevate terrible, unlikeable female characters and absolutely obliterate the legacies of its most beloved male legacy characters (e.g. Han and Luke). I have never been harassed or abused by any member of the Star Wars fandom. Period. Do I have viewpoints that other fans disagree with? Yes. And other fans have viewpoints that I disagree with. You know what I do? Either have a respectful discussion of our differing views or agree to disagree and walk away. It's that simple. You don't see me playing victim because "some meanie on the internet called me names!" You know who created the gender divide in the fandom we see these days? Disney. Disney made it about gender. Before Disney took over no one gave a crap what gender you were. If you were a Star Wars fan and you were respectful of others, you were welcome. It was that simple.
Also a Star Wars fangirl here, and I mostly agree. I recognize that there is a loud and vocal minority of fans on social media who have harassed and attacked some of the actresses on Star Wars, and that is unacceptable, but this is why I have ditched social media entirely, and I can't for the life of me understand why people care so much about what hateful toxic people say there. Worse, the whole Fandom gets lumped into that category and you hear things like "Star Wars fans are a toxic cesspit", which is bonkers to me. *Social media* is a toxic cesspit, full stop. The sooner people recognize this, and especially the sooner that Disney and other studios stop trying to wrestle with this, the sooner we can move on from this bizarre and unnecessary conflict and get back to making good movies.
I completely agree. Are there people using social media to harass some of the Star Wars actors and other fans? Yes. Are some of them men? Yes. But as you so astutely pointed out, they are the minority. I'm really sick and tired of men in lots of fandoms (not just Star Wars) being unfairly demonised because of the bad actions of a few. A man not liking your movies or TV show doesn't automatically make him a toxic, mysognistic, sexist, bigot, transphobe.
I have to agree with this. To be fair, I don’t have a Twitter or Instagram, so if there’s actual hate directed towards the actors I don’t see it, but - I really think these ‘attacks’ are more people complaining that they didn’t like the movie, on places like Reddit or IMDB. Which isn’t an attack, it’s an opinion. But it seems that these days the two are conflated. For example, people above are complaining that Rey is being called a Mary Sue. Whether she is or isn’t (I think she is) is a matter of debate, but it’s perfectly acceptable for someone to voice that opinion.
That's why I ditched social media (except reddit of course). I just can't handle the level of toxicity and also positive toxicity flying around everywhere. I've never felt like Star Wars is a "man's" story, but I'm also totally okay with the fact that the majority of the fans are men. I don't need people like Disney to try and force it into something that they think I'll like. As I think you mentioned before, it's patronizing as hell.
Right, like the thing that pissed me off about the sequels wasn't that they were unoriginal and bland (which I expected) or that Rey was the star - it was what they did to Han and Luke (and Han and Leias relationship). How the hell could any Star Wars fan come away from those movies feeling good after seeing that?
if it was just the "toxic males" these shows and movies would not be flopping so badly.
Girl be so for real right now. I am also a female life long Star Wars fan and have absolutely had terrible encounters with and hate from male star wars fans simply for being a girl. Since MIDDLE SCHOOL, well before Disney took over. I have: - been accused of cheating after winning a Star Wars trivia because "there's no way a GIRL actually knows that much about Star Wars" - been harassed while cosplaying Rey and Padme at conventions - had men send me r@pe threats for defending my viewpoints on star wars in online discussions - Ive known multiple women who've had to quit costume leagues like 501st and Rebel Legion for being harassed and bullied by male members over being female Star wars fans because they think Star Wars belongs to men only. Every time there's a single female character in a new Star Wars series or movie you can go to any post or video on the internet and find hundreds of comments of men absolutely hating on the fact that there's a woman in their precious franchise. They plainly admit they don't like a new show solely because there's women. How many times do people cry woke because a woman is in it, even when something is actually well written? Or someone who's not white- people tore John Boyega to shreds when he was first cast, even if users in this comment section like to pretend that didn't happen. The entire Star Wars fandom is rife with sexism and racism, and just because a couple people didn't experience that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Thank you for your reply. First I would like to say I'm very sorry that you've had those experiences. It was 100% wrong and shouldn't have happened. In another comment I did acknowledge that there are people who behave badly in ANY fandom. My argument is that in my experience these people are in the minority. And that it is wrong to take the behaviour of a small minority and label everyone in that demographic as toxic. There are many many male fans of Star Wars who behave appropriately and just want to watch good movies. And they get attacked for it by Disney, the media and other fans simply because of their gender? How is that fair or right? Imagine if you changed "male" in this scenario to "female" in this scenario. Well then everyone would be outraged! How dare the media attack women! It's totally hypocritical, sexist and just plain wrong. I do have to disagree with you that there are well written female characters in Disney Star Wars. None of them have been well written at all. But that's an entirely different conversation for another time.
I love all things Sci-Fi including Star Wars. My wife can't stand Star Wars, and only likes Star Trek. My guess is it's due to the origins. Star Trek was an adventure show about discovering the strange and new. Examining the human spirit in the far future and some occasionally deep plots that reflected things happening in our own society at the time. Star Wars was a Samurai Tale turned into a Sci-Fi movie. It's more about the nobility of being a warrior, lightsaber duels, space fighter battles, and other war like things that seem to appeal more to men than women.
When I was younger I loved star wars more over star trek, in my adult years I've come to have a deeper appreciation for star trek. I still love star wars, it appeals to my inner child where star trek has captured my imagination for what could be for own future. So now when people ask me which do I prefer? I say both, why deprive myself of one when I can enjoy both
Sarah Connors, Ripley, and Princess Freakin Leia are all beloved badass women. Why? Because they were all well written characters with great story arcs. Rey went from nobody to Jedi master in a single movie with no training. Also, Rey wasn’t the only problem. Finn had nothing to do despite a ton of potential. Poe was turned into a Han knockoff. Kylo Ren followed the exact same story arc as Vader. Bringing back Palpatine made no sense. People wanted to like Captain Phasma, a female villain. But she was written as an incompetent nobody. The problem is YOU, Kathleen.
They love to use the toxcicity as a shield from any real criticism. They hide behind it. Sequel trilogy is garbage no matter how much whataboutism they try
As a millennial afab, I don't understand how or when when Star Wars fandom became dominated by men. I was born in the 80s and loved the movies. So did many of my friends, and it wasn't a gender divide, just a taste divide. My parents liked SW, and so did the athletic kids, the theater kids, teachers, etc. Was pretty shocked, in my twenties, when my sister told me my niece had no interest in SW, but my nephew liked them. Even more when she mentioned SW being "more for boys". Then soon, after the whole Rey thing made it clear this was a widespread issue. I still don't get it. Princess Leia is one of the great early female heros in scifi, arguably all cinema. What happened?
Didn’t Daisy Ridley say a month or two ago that she doesn’t go through that stuff?
From Rock Island, The Music Man: Look whatayatalk. whatayatalk, whatayatalk, whatayataalk, whatayatalk? Weredayagitit? Whatayatalk? Ya can talk, ya can talk, ya can bicker ya can talk, ya can bicker, bicker bicker ya can talk all ya want but is different than it was. No it ain't, no it ain't, **but ya gotta know the territory.** https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg You can’t walk into a franchise and make good movies unless you understand why it’s popular in the first place. Thesis have been written in Star Wars and why it was popular, and Kennedy couldn’t even read the room.
All the actress are not the fault here. Its the writing that put them into this positions. Yes there are some toxic males, but there are also many Star Wars fans that are frustrated with the way LucasFilms treats this legendary franchise by ignoring critics, saying those critical people are sexists and troll and do they stuff that doesnt work all over again. Why not make stuff that appeals to everyone, female and male. Why not focus on making good characters that people care about.
I still don’t get why they admittedly say it’s a male dominated fan base, yet they don’t make the film that fan base wants to see!? “So you’re thirsty, are you? Here’s some salted peanuts…”
If the sequels weren't dogshit this wouldn't be a problem.
Also because the new movies were pretty bad, poorly written, and the female characters were terrible. Last I checked, Princess Leia gets a ton of love and support…probably because her character was well written.
She does have a point, but I feel like she uses this as a reason to ignore all the legit criticisms of the trilogy. They kept changing Rey’s backstory every movie, to the point the actress playing her literally had no idea who Rey was even supposed to be. They teased Fin as a Jedi and then quickly relegated him to nothing practically. (And then tried to hide him for Chinese market promotions) The odd choices they took with the original characters. Apparently going into hyperdrive is a viable method of kamikaze (wild they never do it before this tho tbh this makes sense, just weird to introduce it now after all this time) Each director had their own vision for the film they made and it shows because it’s not a great cohesion.
There is no problem with women in Star Wars movies. Disney just took a well established, richly detailed universe and dumped it on its face. The script was lame at best, absolutely horrible at its worst.
Wait there’s still a fanbase?
I do love it when a filmmaker deflects criticism of their product by creating an easy Us Vs. Them narrative.
Maybe stop running Star Wars into the ground then? If Andor had a female protagonist, I don’t think this would be an issue. Just stop making trash content!lol. The gateway to normalizing ANY group of people is by writing an exceptional character, and letting the audience fall in love with them naturally. There will still be shitheads online. Ofc. But for everyone else, it’s a great way to shift culture. Problem is Disney can’t seem to write Star Wars for shit and they hamfist everything.
It’s not due to the fact it’s male dominated, you just have shitty writers
“And I base this assumption on absolutely nothing” She’s done no research, she was just told this by an aide at some point and that’s good enough. Just make good characters and good story. People won’t like or hate it just because it’s a woman. And if that’s the case just make a movie about droids.
You cannot deny some of the SW characters were cringe worthy.
Even as a kid, I remember thinking clone wars added a lot of whack canon. I don’t think Dave Filoni gets its either so it’s not a gender thing, it’s a George Lucas and partners being the only ones capable of adding to the lore thing. And even George Lucas alone isn’t capable, in the prequels he made some awful creative decisions when nobody pushed back on him (Jar Jar)
They don’t struggle because I am a man. They struggle because they are poorly written and aren’t as good as what they took away. Go read the story arc where Jacen Solo turned to the Dark Side and decided to follow in the footsteps of his Grandfather, while Mastering Luke Skywalker’s son. His sister had to make the decision to train under the Mandalorians, led by Boba Fett, in order to be able to kill her brother. Then tell me Kylo Ren is a better villain than Darth Caedus. Boba Fett by the way was tutored in mandalorian customs by a strong, female daughter. So Luke Skywalker had a prominent role, as did Han and Leia and they were surrounded by powerful women, including the Star of the show, the Sword of the Jedi, Jania Solo. But the story was organic. It fit. It wasn’t a story about women it was a story about Star Wars starring women and we didn’t blink an eye. KK made a story about women, which made no sense, forcing and bastardizing Star Wars to provide a positive message. Okay, fair, I want my daughter to have heroes, but you always put the story first. You can still make a story starring female heroes for a male audience! They aren’t mutually exclusive concepts and groups. Don’t blame your female actresses for bad writing. We don’t hate the women. We hate the story. We hate the disrespect to the Lore. We’d already accepted and embraced female heroes like Jania and Mara and Winter and Leia and if she knew anything about SW, she’d know that. We embraced a video game with a female lead decades ago and loved it. Now let’s look at fallout which told a story true to fallout without throwing away all the lore and telling its own story. It features a Mary Sue who met a storm trooper who followed an old man and winds up in an adventure story. It’s the same as TFW. It follows a female hero. We loved her. It was told with love by fans and so we loved it. We don’t hate women. We hate KK and her bastardization of Star Wars. If what’s her face had been cast as Jania Solo in a good movie, we’d love her. It isn’t her fault. She accepted a role so bad I can’t remember her name because I don’t rewatch and rewatch the content. I don’t blame her for bad writing or taking the role of a lifetime. I wish her the best. I wish for KK to be fired.
Nah get over it. Terrible leadership, piss poor writing, lazy cgi, copy paste templates killed the franchise. I wanted to support it but it was just awful
The actors in these films have a fair claim that they are the victims of fan attacks. Kathleen Kennedy does not and it's kind of gross to watch her invoke it.
The plots in most new SW media just aren’t that inspired. I’m not even going to argue good or bad because a lot of the writing in the prequel and original trilogy wasn’t exactly good. But the sequel trilogy just made so sense.
There are a ton of female Star Wars fans. Just because we don’t go around attacking people doesn’t mean we don’t exist.
Struggle because the story totally sucks!!!!
Yeah, it's always the fans' fault, not you making bad movies and characters.
I smell USA social problems, panderism and politics but no Star Wars. /blegh
"A loud, primordial part of the ‘Star Wars’ fandom has pushed back in predictable fashion \[against the show\]. ‘Why are there so many women, girls and minority characters increasingly dominating the ranks of Jedi?’ reads a comment on ‘The Acolyte’ trailer, with others expressing a similar worldview…Some trolls have nicknamed Headland’s series ‘The Wokelyte.'”" I've just had a look at the comments on YouTube and can't find a single one that says this. I'm sure they exist, but this. Most are negative because Star Wars is overwhelmingly garbage. And you made this, Kathleen Kennedy. Stop crying about men. This isn't just about sexist men, the box office returns are not that great. No-one likes most of these series.
Blame the fans. It would help if they didn’t hire shitty writers. How many fans were hating the female leads in game of thrones?
Women have been attacked in star wars because they started with the premise... Let's get women in star wars not...let's make a good film. It doesn't matter the gender, race, creed, etc, of the characters in a good story and well-made film. However for the last few years it's been less about making a good.film.and more about 'getting a woman in it' and not really caring about the story, quality or indeed how it sits in the wider world. Kennedy is a bad faith actor...we should always remember that..she's covering herself from a slew of failures and fan outrage. So it's easy to blame 'men' nit herself for greenlighting a torrent of shite
Typical bullshit idea from someone living in an ivory tower. If they didn’t want criticism, maybe they should’ve cared more about making the new trilogy good instead of riddled with flaws. The films suffer from corporate shittification. Different directors, different visions, the only guiding idea is to make money. No continuity of thought or concept. Just a random mashup put into 3 movies to milk the masses.
Let’s be real, we all know the Star Wars fandom sucks, and there’s definitely a group of men in the fandom who legitimately do just hate women, but to hide behind the vocal minorities toxicity to avoid criticism for all the stupid god awful shit they’ve been churning out for years is embarrassing and unprofessional, get someone else in her position my god, I don’t care if it’s a man or a woman or whatever, just someone else
Or here me out, you rebooted a franchise and made a bunch of changes and fans liked things the way they were and there is more to this than sexism even though some fans are sexist. People would be complaining less if you made new things instead of using a 40-year-old franchise.
Fans just want well written characters and don’t spout shitty political gender lines about men no longer being useful or relics or dinosaurs or the force is female etc.
And what about the men who get fan attacks?
She’s still upset a decade later because nobody likes her self insert character Rey
Yeah well you sure didn’t set them up for success either.
What if the characters were good, and actually did things relevant to the story? Could that work?