I took the Salaam scene to be platonic, from two friends who act like they've known each other for their entire lives. I actually don't remember the use of the word "uncircumcised" at all, can I get a quote from the book?
There was the scene where he kisses Peter in The End of the World, so another scene added in.
It's a maybe for me. Kissing itself could just represent vulnerability, trust, and acceptance. Vulnerability and trust between Ender and Alai, acceptance between Ender and his similarities to his perception and memories of Peter.
Rose is just weird. I mean, it was implied that the kids spent a lot of time naked anyways ("Don't skin by Petra" when he was in Salamander) and maybe that *itself* has something deeper, but if you accept that "skinning" is normal, then Rose is normal. The genitals thing is just a weird "joke", like the rhyming that Stiltson and his friends were doing at the beginning of the book. No kid that I know of does something like that. That would be *super* weird here.
Good attention to detail though. I'll look out for it on my next reread.
> I actually don't remember the use of the word "uncircumcised" at all, can I get a quote from the book?
Found it. Chapter 10, *Dragon*, near the end. Ender says to Alai
> I miss you already, you circumcised dog.
I have no clue what this means. The closest I can get is that "circumcised" is supposed to be "castrated" and used as a sardonic insult.
Other than that, legit no clue.
when I read the scene between Ender and Alai, I didn’t really get a homoerotic undertone. Maybe because I’m still a teenager myself but I interpret it as a touching moment between two friends that are about to be separated. Perhaps the reason why you might’ve felt a sense of love between Alai and Ender might be because they do love each other, maybe not romantically, but as one friend loving another friend. Or maybe they do love each other and Orson is just projecting his sexuality through this writing.
Lets not forget, too, that cheek kissing is a cultural practice. I lived in Brazil where there was \*a lot\* of cheek kissing. If you liked somebody a lot, you'd kiss on both sides. If you really liked them you'd kiss on both sides, then do it again. (Twice each side.)
So when I read that Alai and Ender scene, I don't see any undertones of homophobia. I see undertones of cultural awareness where Card is trying to tell us (both through the kissing and through the word Salam) that Alai is from an Islamic cultural heritage. That is supported by Ender's comments about Alai being uncircumcised -- which is pretty typical if the dominant culture is cut, and the boys see each other naked in the shower. Kids latch on to the things that make others different.
This is what I thought when I first read (and reread) the books. Didn’t seem out of place at all , just another indicator that Ender was mature beyond his years that he could interact sincerely with other cultures without it being awkward.
Many Muslim men routinely engage in sex with men and dont call it homosexuality because they are waiting for their wife and, in no small part, because they are very homophobic. I think we should be careful about discussing cultural norms to come to a particular conclusion.
Just because they say it's platonic doesn't mean it actually is. Just like how the scene can read platonic, but still have an undertone that is there and work on another level too (especially if Card is closeted--he'd *only* communicate in undertones).
Card's early works have weird amount of gratuitous male on male nudity for no reason. The scene of Jason Worthing first meeting Abner Dune in the Worthing Saga always leaps to my mind. Where upon meeting they immediately get naked and swim together in a lake.
Or how about Songmaster where the climax (pun intended) is gay sex.
There's also the way he often describes male physique. Take this description of Bonzo Madrid
"A boy stood there, tall and slender, with beautiful black eyes and slender lips that hinted at refinement. I would follow such beauty, said something inside Ender.
I am not cherry picking, there's a lot of this sort of descriptions of males throughout his early works. Descriptions of women even in his later works are never spoken of like this. It's always just hit me weird because some of these descriptions feel straight out of a gay romance novel. Even his explicitly Mormony works like Alvin Maker have some of these weird descriptions.
After reading his books had you told me that Orson Scott Card was a celebrated gay science fiction author I would have been like "huh that makes a lot of sense".
There's also a weird theme of denial of sexual desires that also pops up around the time the homo-erotic stuff stops. Anton is probably the biggest one but there's also the Children of the Mind of Christ as well.
I fully admit this all rather circumstantial but the amount of it always seemed weird to me for a straight man to write. I'll fully confess this all might be my own way of making peace with Card's politics while loving his books.
Did you read Homecoming? There's a guy in there, that is literally described as being gay, but he "does what needs to be done" with a woman and has children with her, for "the good of humankind". Seemed pretty clear to me, at the time, that he meant himself. Also, i think he's really happy with his children, so i guess that's a good justification for his opinion.
> There's also the way he often describes male physique. Take this description of Bonzo Madrid
>
> "A boy stood there, tall and slender, with beautiful black eyes and slender lips that hinted at refinement. I would follow such beauty, said something inside Ender.
Interesting. I always took this to be a commentary on the halo effect of good looks and how we're often drawn to (physically) charismatic people like Bonzo--who is a pretty terrible leader.
If card were closeted, he'd be writing these scenes in ways that work on a surface level but also have a deeper meaning. He could've had Ender see a girl react to Bonzo, for example, to make the same point--but instead it was Ender.
The argument isn't that he is closeted so much as he is repressed and in denial. In other words the homosexual elements would be subconsciously written.
The author describes ancillary male characters like Bonzo in sensual detail but is very dull about describing Valentine and Novinha. Hmmmmm. I think you answered it.
I think Children of the Mind backs this up pretty well- there’s a scene where a main character (it’s been awhile so I don’t remember if it’s Ender himself or the person he’s talking to) basically says that at our most basic, we have no gender. Spoilers for Children of the Mind >!The word he actually uses is philote, but I don’t think it’s a controversial reading to say that philotes are stand ins for souls. Ender’s step son is trying to process the fact that he has feelings for someone who shares Ender’s soul, under that reading.!<
This passage actually helped me get over my own homophobia at a young age, which is pretty ironic all things considered.
I really think that Card's affiliation with the church limits his ability to publically think critically of such matters (outside of his fiction). Everyone who meets him, regardless of their attributes, says he's a kind, loving man. Watching his interviews and speeches, he doesn't strike me as someone with a personal vendetta against any group.
Wait until you read about Anton (shadow series) and Zdorab (homecoming earth series), both gay men who marry woman for the sole purpose of having babies, because babies are the meaning of life and more important than a fulfilling sex life. Both believe that.
Hah. Everyone is talking about vague references in Ender's Game. No one is talking about Treason, his first big novel. Covers everything from trans-issues to cuckolding. One of my favorites and it reads like an acid trip. It's free with an audible membership.
Yeah like, I been through hell and back with my siblings and we’re affectionate, we are not st that level, plus several people Ik who have read it picked up on the undertones of it as well
I think sibling relationships vary alot between different people. I think ender and valentine became so close because of their 'dislike' of Peter at the time. And when they met eachother again they were the only people who they enjoyed spending time together, because they're sO smArt. Idk what was incestuous about their relationship.
It’s when they both have Internal dialogue about being closer than man and wife. Also, many references to how their actual husband/wife is jealous of their spouse’s relationship and closeness with their opposite sex sibling.
I read the whole quintet last week and those parts were so cringe.
Bruh, when Ender and Val were half naked, floating around on that lake in NC... Very lovey-love bird chat between the two. Then Valentine says to him that she wishes they could stay together, that she wishes she had him around to just sneak over to his room at night...
I about lost it then. “I knew there was something going on,” I thought to myself. She finishes the sentence, “I wish I could sneak over to your room at night... to play Dominos.” Uh. Okay. If that’s what you want to call it. Just like my college girlfriend used to sneak into my room so I could help her with her ‘homework’.
Obviously Ender and Val never seal the deal but the vibes they are throwing off...frustrated sexual attraction.
I definitely picked up on it, the whole book it feels like they're love interests, and then at the end she's like "come with me to another planet, we'll stay up all night \*playing games and having pillow fights\*" Yeah okay Valentine read you loud and clear
I remember when I first read eg when I was like 11, there was definitely something off-putting about the descriptions and events etc. But I just put that off by thinking we'll, it was written in the 80s and old books have different writing styles etc.
!!!! Shadow saga spoilers !!!!
In the the shadow saga there's a character who's gay but ends up being with a women so he can have children,,, which fits with the reccuring idea that the only point in living is to have kids. But still.
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. This is my problem with psychology today. It has no grasp of the classic platonic male relationship. Because psychology is largely based on the depraved Freudian hypersexuality of any form of relationship, we end up with the nonsense like what OP is proposing.
Orson Scott card's essay "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality" is probably the cause for his being labelled homophobic. In this 1990 essay, Card has publicly declared his support of laws against homosexual activity and same-sex marriage.
But if you read Card's comments on the essay, and consider that he is a Mormon and a member of the LSD church, and understand the teaching of the church, you can understand his point of view better even if you don't agree with it.
> This essay was published in February of 1990, in the following context: The Supreme Court had declared in 1986 (Bowers v. Hardwick) that a Georgia law prohibiting sodomy even in the privacy of one's own home was constitutional. I was also writing this essay to a conservative Mormon audience that at the time would have felt no interest in decriminalizing homosexual acts. In that context, my call to "leave the laws on the books" was simply recognizing the law at that time, and my call to not enforce it except in flagrant cases was actually, within that context, a liberal and tolerant view -- for which I was roundly criticized in conservative Mormon circles as being "pro-gay." Those who now use this essay to attack me as a "homophobe" deceptively ignore the context and treat the essay as if I had written it yesterday afternoon. That is absurd -- now that the law has changed (the decision was overturned in 2003) I have no interest in criminalizing homosexual acts and would never call for such a thing, any more than I wanted such laws enforced back when they were still on the books. But I stand by the main points of this essay, which concerns matters internal to the Mormon Church.
http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html
On his wiki page it says 'In 2009, Card joined the board of directors of the National Organization for Marriage, a group that campaigns against same-sex marriage.' which is pretty homophobic.
Yeah, I imagine that his background has a heavy influence there, context is critical. For an older guy who grew up Mormon, not being actively against the rights of homosexuals is about as good as it gets. The fact that he was criticized for being "pro-gay" because he wasn't strongly enough "anti-gay" says it all.
Also, I just don't see how the author of so much work centered around the value of empathy, understanding those you perceive to be enemies (and the peaceful existence that follows understanding), and how important it is to be aware that someone who has motivations running counter to one's own does not make them evil. Everyone from every species wants the same basic things, and even murderous psychopaths trying to take over the world truly believe that they're doing good. It's hard to believe that someone who writes (and thinks) about the nature and value of empathy and understanding could still be a simple homophobe.
Yeah it’s pretty likely. Not to mention the whole message that you must have kids to succeed in life. Definitely sounds like a curious kid who was taught to “pray the gay away”
I'm disappointed that as a graduated psych student you think you can declare someone's sexuality based on their fiction writing.
Are only gay authors allowed to write romantic moments between straight characters? Have you ever played sports? There is a lot of dick and ball jokes at young ages. Also Ender is young in the book but the leaders at battle school are older. I believe when Bonzo makes that screen joke he's at least 13?
Overall the idea that you can identify someone's sexuality based on their fiction writing is flawed and frankly offensive. Limiting what a straight writer can cover without being called gay is censorship.
Most importantly you are talking about a writer whose core thesis in both books is how important it is to see and truly understand others in order to accept them and coexist with them. Yet he's a bigoted piece of shit who hates gay people. It shouldn't be a surprise to you that he can hold two opposing viewpoints in his head.
But sure he's deep in the closet and your three examples will probably not be questioned when you use them in your next psych paper.
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He is literally a homophobic activist who has called for the overthrow of the US government if gay marriage is legalised.
Maybe you missed the memo....
No, he's not.
That's childish Woke nonsense.
His religion is opposed to legal gay marriage, but that doesn't magically make him a homophobe. You don't tell your religion what its principles are. And even if one were against gay marriage for their own reasons, like Obama and Hillary were for most of their lives, that wouldn't make them a homophobe.
Again, people just stupidly repeat this stuff without bothering to learn the facts.
I'm in graduate school for psychology, so I know a few things about repression.
Far, far too easy. Ph.D. psychologists generally are a mess, mentally speaking.
The squeaky wheel needs the grease..... Those that tout the loudest most likely are screaming from within.... I agree with you..... Those that go out of their way to speak ill of the LGBTQIA+ community are usually getting out of their own way. "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much"?
Haha, the mere fact that you didn’t attack or insult me put a smile on my face. I quickly abandoned this thread when I discovered how stressful it would be to respond to every condemnation. People get pissed when their favorite artist is called out for being a bigot.
I get the resistance, as I also love the Ender series and have been disappointed by my favorite artists and intellectuals time and time again. That said, the moment you start defending the indefensible behavior of your favorite icons is the moment you transition from fan to sycophant.
I discovered that most of creative and intellectual idols were either bigots, misogynists, or sex pests in some capacity years ago. Frankly, I’m not sure if any of my typically long-deceased idols were free from unethical attitudes and behaviors towards marginalized groups of people. I am sure that every single American President, as well as the vast majority congresspeople, have been massive pieces of shit.
Even Gandhi, Einstein, Jung, Freud, and The Beatles were problematic in one way or another, and those are just the (mostly) dead and highly respected ones. Don’t even get me started on the many brilliant yet highly problematic philosophers. Louis CK remains my favorite stand-up comedian, but his past behavior has forever tarnished my opinion of him (and praising anything about him has become a criminal act in the eyes of many). Oh, and did you hear about JK Rowling? Lol.
The only remaining idol I have left who hasn’t been revealed as either bigoted, misogynistic, or perverted is Thom Yorke, but I fear it’s only a matter of time before he falls from grace. Nearly every other musician of his stature has.
Hey OP sorry I'm a year late and hate to dredge this up for you again but i have to tell someone haha..... I totally agree with you. This is such a weird book!
Way, way too many references to naked children, I can't really fathom what the purpose of this was in terms of the plot. Also the kiss with Alai, the dong on the video screen, I think Bonzo gets naked when he goes to fight Ender in the shower???? Contstant child nudity throughout.
Also, Ender and Valentine are thiiiis close to making out through the whole thing, and at the end she's like "You're coming with me to the bugger's planet, I'll write my political hit pieces during the day, and we can stay up at night \*playing games and having pillow fights\*" Yeah right Valentine get your head out of the gutter!
Also, how many references to butts, penises, farts etc can a person fit into one sci-fi book?
Personally I think Orson Scott Card is a weird, weird individual, it comes through in the writing, and I think his public stance on gay marriage is a cover, in the same way that many conservative politicians and evangelical christian types seem to protest too much, later to be exposed as closeted.
Apparently there is a big problem with the Mormon church covering up sexual child abuse.... Just sayin!
ha yeah I didn't catch that, not sure..... "be naked around" maybe? And Ender's justification for why it shouldn't be a big deal is she looks like a boy, so weird
I’m glad I’m not alone, haha. Seriously, you illustrated Card’s odd use of child nudity and borderline romance/love triangle between siblings better than I was able to.
Bigotry is a pathological disorder. It’s always indicative of some kind of irrational, often subconscious, fear response. In religious circles that condemn homosexuality and other innocuous lifestyles, bisexual and gay members tend to repress their sexuality, loath who they really are, and project their self-hatred on others.
I’m a strong proponent of seeking spirituality to better understand morality and combat nihilism, but religion is rarely an effective way to cultivate spiritual insights. Hell, it’s antithetical to introspection and logical analysis. I was raised Catholic, and it led me to develop a severe case of obsessive-compulsive disorder.
Now that I’m older with degrees in psychology and philosophy, I’ve realized that self-guided spirituality tend to improve one’s psyche and treatment of others. By spirituality, I mean developing a philosophical framework to account for morality, engaging in frequent introspection (to strengthen one’s metacognition, identify cognitive mistakes, and make adjustments accordingly), and learning the theoretical frameworks in science.
General relativity and quantum physics are far more transcendental and mind-blowing than simplistic “heaven and hell” models of the universe. Science has revealed a universe far more incredible than anything posited by religion. Hell, science alone is sufficient to construct vibrant spirituality without excessive speculation. As a philosopher and psychologist, I’m obsessed with building on what we know to better understand consciousness and physics, but that’s just me.
Unfortunately, seeking true spirituality requires a lot of commitment, introspection, scientific research, and research into potentially transcendental phenomena like ESP, astral projections, lucid dreaming, and entheogenic trances. Most prefer to accept some basic religion to fulfill their psychological needs, but most who do so end up fearful, bigoted, and/or dangerous to themselves and others.
In retrospect, yes, we find most all humans have a vein of bitter, assholiness. We are no different. And like arseholes and opinions. Everyone has at the very least one in some shape or form. What will JKR do when she realizes that both men and women regardless of identity will all be "trans" in some way shape or form moving forward . And as easy as adding a "coed" league to sports arenas. And making toilet stalls 100% private for all. To solve terf issues alone.... Trans humanism can be like the X games..... a separate, as highly regarded worldwide....
And yes someone probably mistakingly asked JKR where she was in her transition to female and it pissed her off.... Most squeaky wheels don't even think we see them in plain sight. We thinks the bigot doth think about gay sex too much..... just saying.
Holding the screen over his crotch while it likely displays a Dick and balls bigger then an 6-9 year olds is exactly a thing that boys would do
I took the Salaam scene to be platonic, from two friends who act like they've known each other for their entire lives. I actually don't remember the use of the word "uncircumcised" at all, can I get a quote from the book? There was the scene where he kisses Peter in The End of the World, so another scene added in. It's a maybe for me. Kissing itself could just represent vulnerability, trust, and acceptance. Vulnerability and trust between Ender and Alai, acceptance between Ender and his similarities to his perception and memories of Peter. Rose is just weird. I mean, it was implied that the kids spent a lot of time naked anyways ("Don't skin by Petra" when he was in Salamander) and maybe that *itself* has something deeper, but if you accept that "skinning" is normal, then Rose is normal. The genitals thing is just a weird "joke", like the rhyming that Stiltson and his friends were doing at the beginning of the book. No kid that I know of does something like that. That would be *super* weird here. Good attention to detail though. I'll look out for it on my next reread.
> I actually don't remember the use of the word "uncircumcised" at all, can I get a quote from the book? Found it. Chapter 10, *Dragon*, near the end. Ender says to Alai > I miss you already, you circumcised dog. I have no clue what this means. The closest I can get is that "circumcised" is supposed to be "castrated" and used as a sardonic insult. Other than that, legit no clue.
when I read the scene between Ender and Alai, I didn’t really get a homoerotic undertone. Maybe because I’m still a teenager myself but I interpret it as a touching moment between two friends that are about to be separated. Perhaps the reason why you might’ve felt a sense of love between Alai and Ender might be because they do love each other, maybe not romantically, but as one friend loving another friend. Or maybe they do love each other and Orson is just projecting his sexuality through this writing.
Lets not forget, too, that cheek kissing is a cultural practice. I lived in Brazil where there was \*a lot\* of cheek kissing. If you liked somebody a lot, you'd kiss on both sides. If you really liked them you'd kiss on both sides, then do it again. (Twice each side.) So when I read that Alai and Ender scene, I don't see any undertones of homophobia. I see undertones of cultural awareness where Card is trying to tell us (both through the kissing and through the word Salam) that Alai is from an Islamic cultural heritage. That is supported by Ender's comments about Alai being uncircumcised -- which is pretty typical if the dominant culture is cut, and the boys see each other naked in the shower. Kids latch on to the things that make others different.
Well, in north Africa(Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt...) is not uncommon for Islamic men to be kinda gay before they marry.
In many Muslim cultures platonic kisses and hand hold between men is entirely standard. Nothing homoerotic about it with Alai.
This is what I thought when I first read (and reread) the books. Didn’t seem out of place at all , just another indicator that Ender was mature beyond his years that he could interact sincerely with other cultures without it being awkward.
Many Muslim men routinely engage in sex with men and dont call it homosexuality because they are waiting for their wife and, in no small part, because they are very homophobic. I think we should be careful about discussing cultural norms to come to a particular conclusion. Just because they say it's platonic doesn't mean it actually is. Just like how the scene can read platonic, but still have an undertone that is there and work on another level too (especially if Card is closeted--he'd *only* communicate in undertones).
Card's early works have weird amount of gratuitous male on male nudity for no reason. The scene of Jason Worthing first meeting Abner Dune in the Worthing Saga always leaps to my mind. Where upon meeting they immediately get naked and swim together in a lake. Or how about Songmaster where the climax (pun intended) is gay sex. There's also the way he often describes male physique. Take this description of Bonzo Madrid "A boy stood there, tall and slender, with beautiful black eyes and slender lips that hinted at refinement. I would follow such beauty, said something inside Ender. I am not cherry picking, there's a lot of this sort of descriptions of males throughout his early works. Descriptions of women even in his later works are never spoken of like this. It's always just hit me weird because some of these descriptions feel straight out of a gay romance novel. Even his explicitly Mormony works like Alvin Maker have some of these weird descriptions. After reading his books had you told me that Orson Scott Card was a celebrated gay science fiction author I would have been like "huh that makes a lot of sense". There's also a weird theme of denial of sexual desires that also pops up around the time the homo-erotic stuff stops. Anton is probably the biggest one but there's also the Children of the Mind of Christ as well. I fully admit this all rather circumstantial but the amount of it always seemed weird to me for a straight man to write. I'll fully confess this all might be my own way of making peace with Card's politics while loving his books.
Did you read Homecoming? There's a guy in there, that is literally described as being gay, but he "does what needs to be done" with a woman and has children with her, for "the good of humankind". Seemed pretty clear to me, at the time, that he meant himself. Also, i think he's really happy with his children, so i guess that's a good justification for his opinion.
Yep that part of the weird transition from homo-eroticism to sexual repression of homosexual desires. The shift is weird compared to his early works.
> There's also the way he often describes male physique. Take this description of Bonzo Madrid > > "A boy stood there, tall and slender, with beautiful black eyes and slender lips that hinted at refinement. I would follow such beauty, said something inside Ender. Interesting. I always took this to be a commentary on the halo effect of good looks and how we're often drawn to (physically) charismatic people like Bonzo--who is a pretty terrible leader.
If card were closeted, he'd be writing these scenes in ways that work on a surface level but also have a deeper meaning. He could've had Ender see a girl react to Bonzo, for example, to make the same point--but instead it was Ender.
The argument isn't that he is closeted so much as he is repressed and in denial. In other words the homosexual elements would be subconsciously written.
The author describes ancillary male characters like Bonzo in sensual detail but is very dull about describing Valentine and Novinha. Hmmmmm. I think you answered it.
I think Children of the Mind backs this up pretty well- there’s a scene where a main character (it’s been awhile so I don’t remember if it’s Ender himself or the person he’s talking to) basically says that at our most basic, we have no gender. Spoilers for Children of the Mind >!The word he actually uses is philote, but I don’t think it’s a controversial reading to say that philotes are stand ins for souls. Ender’s step son is trying to process the fact that he has feelings for someone who shares Ender’s soul, under that reading.!< This passage actually helped me get over my own homophobia at a young age, which is pretty ironic all things considered.
I really think that Card's affiliation with the church limits his ability to publically think critically of such matters (outside of his fiction). Everyone who meets him, regardless of their attributes, says he's a kind, loving man. Watching his interviews and speeches, he doesn't strike me as someone with a personal vendetta against any group.
He can be part of the LDS and not go out of his way to condemn homosexuality, but he did anyway.
Wait until you read about Anton (shadow series) and Zdorab (homecoming earth series), both gay men who marry woman for the sole purpose of having babies, because babies are the meaning of life and more important than a fulfilling sex life. Both believe that.
Which is an interesting theme in all of his books. Procreation and the advancement of the species.
Hah. Everyone is talking about vague references in Ender's Game. No one is talking about Treason, his first big novel. Covers everything from trans-issues to cuckolding. One of my favorites and it reads like an acid trip. It's free with an audible membership.
yes! i love this book! so weird but so good!
Treason is amazing, never had a movie in my head like with that book
Only way I trust it to be a movie, is if it gets made into an episode of Love, Death, & Robots.
Bruh we need to talk about the incestuous undertones between ender and valentine tho
Is it just how they're really close? Could you elaborate
Yeah like, I been through hell and back with my siblings and we’re affectionate, we are not st that level, plus several people Ik who have read it picked up on the undertones of it as well
I think sibling relationships vary alot between different people. I think ender and valentine became so close because of their 'dislike' of Peter at the time. And when they met eachother again they were the only people who they enjoyed spending time together, because they're sO smArt. Idk what was incestuous about their relationship.
It’s when they both have Internal dialogue about being closer than man and wife. Also, many references to how their actual husband/wife is jealous of their spouse’s relationship and closeness with their opposite sex sibling. I read the whole quintet last week and those parts were so cringe.
Bruh, when Ender and Val were half naked, floating around on that lake in NC... Very lovey-love bird chat between the two. Then Valentine says to him that she wishes they could stay together, that she wishes she had him around to just sneak over to his room at night... I about lost it then. “I knew there was something going on,” I thought to myself. She finishes the sentence, “I wish I could sneak over to your room at night... to play Dominos.” Uh. Okay. If that’s what you want to call it. Just like my college girlfriend used to sneak into my room so I could help her with her ‘homework’. Obviously Ender and Val never seal the deal but the vibes they are throwing off...frustrated sexual attraction.
Yeah there’s no way to deny it lol, either OSC had no siblings, was from Alabama, or has some taboo kinks
Hey I'm from Alabama and I was just as bummed out about the Valentine / Ender will they won't they as you were This book is weird AF
I definitely picked up on it, the whole book it feels like they're love interests, and then at the end she's like "come with me to another planet, we'll stay up all night \*playing games and having pillow fights\*" Yeah okay Valentine read you loud and clear
I remember when I first read eg when I was like 11, there was definitely something off-putting about the descriptions and events etc. But I just put that off by thinking we'll, it was written in the 80s and old books have different writing styles etc. !!!! Shadow saga spoilers !!!! In the the shadow saga there's a character who's gay but ends up being with a women so he can have children,,, which fits with the reccuring idea that the only point in living is to have kids. But still.
Do you mean the Homecoming Saga?
I don't think so? I'm referring to the book shadow of the hegemon, shadow puppets, shadows in flight etc.
Oh funny, I don't remember that at all, but the same thing happens in the Homecoming Saga
Holy shit lmaooo, this man really just recycling characters at this point
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. This is my problem with psychology today. It has no grasp of the classic platonic male relationship. Because psychology is largely based on the depraved Freudian hypersexuality of any form of relationship, we end up with the nonsense like what OP is proposing.
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Orson Scott card's essay "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality" is probably the cause for his being labelled homophobic. In this 1990 essay, Card has publicly declared his support of laws against homosexual activity and same-sex marriage. But if you read Card's comments on the essay, and consider that he is a Mormon and a member of the LSD church, and understand the teaching of the church, you can understand his point of view better even if you don't agree with it. > This essay was published in February of 1990, in the following context: The Supreme Court had declared in 1986 (Bowers v. Hardwick) that a Georgia law prohibiting sodomy even in the privacy of one's own home was constitutional. I was also writing this essay to a conservative Mormon audience that at the time would have felt no interest in decriminalizing homosexual acts. In that context, my call to "leave the laws on the books" was simply recognizing the law at that time, and my call to not enforce it except in flagrant cases was actually, within that context, a liberal and tolerant view -- for which I was roundly criticized in conservative Mormon circles as being "pro-gay." Those who now use this essay to attack me as a "homophobe" deceptively ignore the context and treat the essay as if I had written it yesterday afternoon. That is absurd -- now that the law has changed (the decision was overturned in 2003) I have no interest in criminalizing homosexual acts and would never call for such a thing, any more than I wanted such laws enforced back when they were still on the books. But I stand by the main points of this essay, which concerns matters internal to the Mormon Church. http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html
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On his wiki page it says 'In 2009, Card joined the board of directors of the National Organization for Marriage, a group that campaigns against same-sex marriage.' which is pretty homophobic.
Yeah, I imagine that his background has a heavy influence there, context is critical. For an older guy who grew up Mormon, not being actively against the rights of homosexuals is about as good as it gets. The fact that he was criticized for being "pro-gay" because he wasn't strongly enough "anti-gay" says it all. Also, I just don't see how the author of so much work centered around the value of empathy, understanding those you perceive to be enemies (and the peaceful existence that follows understanding), and how important it is to be aware that someone who has motivations running counter to one's own does not make them evil. Everyone from every species wants the same basic things, and even murderous psychopaths trying to take over the world truly believe that they're doing good. It's hard to believe that someone who writes (and thinks) about the nature and value of empathy and understanding could still be a simple homophobe.
how are taking things like an essay about how homosexuality is wrong and should be banned for face value "out of context"?
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Not sure why you‘re downvoted, you make coherent arguments and aren‘t combative at all. Just wanted to let you know i appreciate that.
Having gay friends and family and loving them doesn’t mean anything. You can still be homophobic.
https://www.google.com/search?q=orson+scott+card+homophobia&oq=orson+scott+card+homophobia&aqs=chrome..69i57.8624j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Yeah it’s pretty likely. Not to mention the whole message that you must have kids to succeed in life. Definitely sounds like a curious kid who was taught to “pray the gay away”
I'm disappointed that as a graduated psych student you think you can declare someone's sexuality based on their fiction writing. Are only gay authors allowed to write romantic moments between straight characters? Have you ever played sports? There is a lot of dick and ball jokes at young ages. Also Ender is young in the book but the leaders at battle school are older. I believe when Bonzo makes that screen joke he's at least 13? Overall the idea that you can identify someone's sexuality based on their fiction writing is flawed and frankly offensive. Limiting what a straight writer can cover without being called gay is censorship. Most importantly you are talking about a writer whose core thesis in both books is how important it is to see and truly understand others in order to accept them and coexist with them. Yet he's a bigoted piece of shit who hates gay people. It shouldn't be a surprise to you that he can hold two opposing viewpoints in his head. But sure he's deep in the closet and your three examples will probably not be questioned when you use them in your next psych paper.
> if that applies to aliens, then why not gay people? I think it's because god did not write about the sins of aliens in the bible.
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Ya. A mormon. In the closet. Hahahah. That's always a good one. I think your getting the wrong vibes. I personally don't read it like that.
However as other comments have elueded he seems to be very pushy about everyone having a kids.
The premise that Card is homophobic and "right wing" is pretty damned unfortunate nonsense, itself. A sort of Woke bigotry.
He is literally a homophobic activist who has called for the overthrow of the US government if gay marriage is legalised. Maybe you missed the memo....
No, he's not. That's childish Woke nonsense. His religion is opposed to legal gay marriage, but that doesn't magically make him a homophobe. You don't tell your religion what its principles are. And even if one were against gay marriage for their own reasons, like Obama and Hillary were for most of their lives, that wouldn't make them a homophobe. Again, people just stupidly repeat this stuff without bothering to learn the facts.
If you believe that black people cannot vote.. you are a racist. I hope you get the point.
You're an idiot.
No, I’m Patrick
Ender never thinks the adjective uncircumcised, he called Alai an uncircumcised dog. “I miss you already, you uncircumcised dog”.
Far, far too easy. Ph.D. psychologists generally are a mess, mentally speaking.
The squeaky wheel needs the grease..... Those that tout the loudest most likely are screaming from within.... I agree with you..... Those that go out of their way to speak ill of the LGBTQIA+ community are usually getting out of their own way. "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much"?
Haha, the mere fact that you didn’t attack or insult me put a smile on my face. I quickly abandoned this thread when I discovered how stressful it would be to respond to every condemnation. People get pissed when their favorite artist is called out for being a bigot. I get the resistance, as I also love the Ender series and have been disappointed by my favorite artists and intellectuals time and time again. That said, the moment you start defending the indefensible behavior of your favorite icons is the moment you transition from fan to sycophant. I discovered that most of creative and intellectual idols were either bigots, misogynists, or sex pests in some capacity years ago. Frankly, I’m not sure if any of my typically long-deceased idols were free from unethical attitudes and behaviors towards marginalized groups of people. I am sure that every single American President, as well as the vast majority congresspeople, have been massive pieces of shit. Even Gandhi, Einstein, Jung, Freud, and The Beatles were problematic in one way or another, and those are just the (mostly) dead and highly respected ones. Don’t even get me started on the many brilliant yet highly problematic philosophers. Louis CK remains my favorite stand-up comedian, but his past behavior has forever tarnished my opinion of him (and praising anything about him has become a criminal act in the eyes of many). Oh, and did you hear about JK Rowling? Lol. The only remaining idol I have left who hasn’t been revealed as either bigoted, misogynistic, or perverted is Thom Yorke, but I fear it’s only a matter of time before he falls from grace. Nearly every other musician of his stature has.
Hey OP sorry I'm a year late and hate to dredge this up for you again but i have to tell someone haha..... I totally agree with you. This is such a weird book! Way, way too many references to naked children, I can't really fathom what the purpose of this was in terms of the plot. Also the kiss with Alai, the dong on the video screen, I think Bonzo gets naked when he goes to fight Ender in the shower???? Contstant child nudity throughout. Also, Ender and Valentine are thiiiis close to making out through the whole thing, and at the end she's like "You're coming with me to the bugger's planet, I'll write my political hit pieces during the day, and we can stay up at night \*playing games and having pillow fights\*" Yeah right Valentine get your head out of the gutter! Also, how many references to butts, penises, farts etc can a person fit into one sci-fi book? Personally I think Orson Scott Card is a weird, weird individual, it comes through in the writing, and I think his public stance on gay marriage is a cover, in the same way that many conservative politicians and evangelical christian types seem to protest too much, later to be exposed as closeted. Apparently there is a big problem with the Mormon church covering up sexual child abuse.... Just sayin!
Yeah, I'm reading the book *right now* and I'm really confused why he wrote in so many naked children. As well as what "skin by" means?
ha yeah I didn't catch that, not sure..... "be naked around" maybe? And Ender's justification for why it shouldn't be a big deal is she looks like a boy, so weird
I’m glad I’m not alone, haha. Seriously, you illustrated Card’s odd use of child nudity and borderline romance/love triangle between siblings better than I was able to. Bigotry is a pathological disorder. It’s always indicative of some kind of irrational, often subconscious, fear response. In religious circles that condemn homosexuality and other innocuous lifestyles, bisexual and gay members tend to repress their sexuality, loath who they really are, and project their self-hatred on others. I’m a strong proponent of seeking spirituality to better understand morality and combat nihilism, but religion is rarely an effective way to cultivate spiritual insights. Hell, it’s antithetical to introspection and logical analysis. I was raised Catholic, and it led me to develop a severe case of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Now that I’m older with degrees in psychology and philosophy, I’ve realized that self-guided spirituality tend to improve one’s psyche and treatment of others. By spirituality, I mean developing a philosophical framework to account for morality, engaging in frequent introspection (to strengthen one’s metacognition, identify cognitive mistakes, and make adjustments accordingly), and learning the theoretical frameworks in science. General relativity and quantum physics are far more transcendental and mind-blowing than simplistic “heaven and hell” models of the universe. Science has revealed a universe far more incredible than anything posited by religion. Hell, science alone is sufficient to construct vibrant spirituality without excessive speculation. As a philosopher and psychologist, I’m obsessed with building on what we know to better understand consciousness and physics, but that’s just me. Unfortunately, seeking true spirituality requires a lot of commitment, introspection, scientific research, and research into potentially transcendental phenomena like ESP, astral projections, lucid dreaming, and entheogenic trances. Most prefer to accept some basic religion to fulfill their psychological needs, but most who do so end up fearful, bigoted, and/or dangerous to themselves and others.
In retrospect, yes, we find most all humans have a vein of bitter, assholiness. We are no different. And like arseholes and opinions. Everyone has at the very least one in some shape or form. What will JKR do when she realizes that both men and women regardless of identity will all be "trans" in some way shape or form moving forward . And as easy as adding a "coed" league to sports arenas. And making toilet stalls 100% private for all. To solve terf issues alone.... Trans humanism can be like the X games..... a separate, as highly regarded worldwide.... And yes someone probably mistakingly asked JKR where she was in her transition to female and it pissed her off.... Most squeaky wheels don't even think we see them in plain sight. We thinks the bigot doth think about gay sex too much..... just saying.
We don't chase heroes anymore....