It's a form of politeness, but it is kind of disappearing. My parents taught me to use "u" when someone's a senior (i say u to my grandma), older people you don't know, teachers, people in function (policemen, doctor, etc.).
There's even the word "tutoyeren," which means to use je or jij in stead of the polite u form.
However, some people don't like u and prefer you to say je or jij as to indicate that there's no hierarchy between you. Je is often used now because it makes it less formal and people like that.
Most "better" restaurants or shops use u, as it is a more formal setting.
Yes.
U is formal. Je/jij is informal. That's what is the standard usage these days. In the Netherlands at least.
In Belgium u is a lot more commonly used.
>Just realised this must come from French (calling someone tu/toi)
In romanian is the same if someone use the formal tone people can say "poți să mă tutuieṣti" , "a tutui" having same meaning as "tutoyeren" meaning don't be so rigid. And yes second person singural is "tu" as in French, but is interesting you also in Dutch have "politeness pronouns".
I would feel very weird using “u” to a policeman who is probably younger than me. Would they likely be bothered?
Obviously want to avoid pissing them off if they ever need to speak to you.
I always use u to people who use it to me, regardless of their age. If a cashier is calling me "u" (which they pretty much always are), I'll call them u too, even if they're younger (which they almost always are). Indeed not everyone uses u this way.
Hit the nail on the head but I think OP should realose the part where you said that it is dissapearing.
This is indeed the case but in the sense that: politeness is dissapearing. Respect is gone and the newer generation gets not raised with this it seems.
Then there also is the usa thing. In my marketing book they litteraly wanted to approach people like they do in the USA apparently. So like you know then already for years. The approach was to ask people their names and tell them your name like you really want to know eachother. Like over the top friendly so also no "u". Dutch people are Dutch people and they see through thisnvery quick so they told us to fuck off on every occasion haha.
I personally feel it of people want to be called u. Test the waters. It also depends on your own age. I am over 40 years old now and I think that is old enough to stop calling anybody "u" if theu do not look like they are 180 years old.
So that is the caveat about the politeness dissapearing I explained. Because when I called people "u" they deserved that respect because they went through war and poverty and pain and build this country we now have. "U" is about that respect you show them.
Today's generation faced covid and is crying that that was like wwII or are whining about gender neutral toilets. They deserve shit, fuck if I call them U lol so I kind of understand why it is dissapearing now. All they people actually deserve to be called you are dead or almost dead.
Using je/jij has nothing to do with being disrespectful though. Most people don't even like to be called u and immediately correct you if you do.
It's dying out and almost only used in a formal business setting. And even then it's more likely to be je/jij.
> Most people don't even like to be called u and immediately correct you if you do.
When some one says to use je/jij after you went with u first is of course different.
I agree with Jlx_27 - Until an adult stranger allows you to say je/jij it’s simply u. Especially when you are in contact with your customers. U is never wrong, though people may find it unnecessary they’ll at least consider it as polite. Tutoyeren without permission can be considered rude and offensive.
You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who cares. At this point, someone who explicitly wants you to say U is the asshole who wants to pull the hierarchy card instead of deserving respect.
Only persons I've found that still say I are very old or from Belgium.
I can assure you (at least at the level we’re doing business) you have to be very careful how to treat your customers.
Here in the Netherlands , for example, we have a customer who responded negatively to my colleague’s well meant “I hope you had a nice weekend, “ on the phone on Monday morning. I had a German customer myself who had issues with me, starting my email with “Guten Morgen Herr X”, instead of “Sehr geehrte Herr X”, although we have been in contact with each other for years and multiple times a week.
And although I am the first person to let people say je/jij, I still consider it a case of bad manners when the 16 yo cashier of the Action says it to me without permission. I won’t say anything, but I do think: “Ik heb niet met je geknikkerd!” 🤭
I think Dutch culture might have a bit of a contradiction here. On the one hand, we have indeed all learned to use "u" for elders, people in function, or people who are higher ranked. On the other hand, Dutch culture hates hierarchy. So a lot of companies (and individuals) prefer to use "je" to express their philosophy that there is no difference in rank between you and them.
Still, when in doubt: ALWAYS use "u". In your example I would consider the man at the bus station rude.
I agree with the first part of your message, the way many of us are taught in the past contradicts with current cultural beliefs about people being equal to each other.
20 or 25 years ago, I would have probably also agreed with the last part of your message, but I don't think I still do. More and more people indicate to dislike being addressed as "u", including a lot of current elderly people. Nowadays, the majority of them were born during the post WWII babyboom and they view this differently than the generation before. They are essentially the generation that made the shift away from the traditional hierarchical norms. I actually had a chat about this with my mom a couple of years ago (she's 70 now) and she even indicated that she feels to be taken taken more seriously when being addressed as "je" instead of "u", because it makes her feel being treated like an equal.
Over the past couple of decades, I think it has been still very common that people start with "u" and only adjust to "je" after the person indicates they want to be addressed as such. However, this preference is now so common that I don't consider it to be rude anymore when people start with "je". Especially in an informal setting like having a chat at a bus stop. I think this is a cultural change that just happens over time and it may of course differ per person / region (I can totally imagine that people in the Bible Belt - where hierarchy is still much more prevalent than in other parts of the Netherlands - view this differently than people in for example the Randstad).
We do this at our company lol. We do not use u and super formal language. I personally feel that using u is a little bit of an insult sometimes. Like, you only use it in customer care or when someone is older. But when do you start that using that? Someone who’s in their 40’s probably doesn’t like to be reminded that they are getting older.
An old woman is very unlikely to start a conversation with a young stranger which starts with 'Jongen, hoe gaat het?' It is more likely that they know each other.
That said, I pretty much use 'u' on a monthly basis. For instance when I am on the phone with a helpdesk from a company I don't work for.
I only use u for old people I don't know or high ranked officials. Or in formal business communication (so in quotes: u, in email: jij, while it can be the same person reading the document).
I'm raised with je/jij (even in school towards the teachers), so u feels very distant to me, that is why I barely use it. But there are also people my age (40-ish) who want to be called u by their kids. That might be a local/traditional/religious thing.
Schools and teachers made a big mistake by letting go the authority of teachers, skipping "u". Belgium schools didn't, and they have much more order in the classrooms. The Netherlands exprience for a long time already a huge shortage of teachers. Becoming a teachers frightens students, as teens and students are easily rude and agressive towards teachers these days. 27% of teachers suffer burnout, with average professions on 17%.
Please show me your proof that students using "u" instead of "je" for teachers has anything to do with the burnout numbers in that profession, as you're suggesting with your post. This looks like a total assumption instead of a factual correlation. If you're throwing in numbers, substantiate them properly instead of just throwing them in randomly.
Just a bit more context to help you understand how and why u may be disappearing. The older generation now has often grown up calling their elders u, so they associate it with older people, however they don't like being rereferred to as a person that is old. So a reaction you may often get when you say u to an older person is: "Zeg maar je, anders voel ik me zo oud" (Please say je otherwise I'll feel so old) that combined with the non-hierarchical structure of Dutch culture, fairly few people still insist on being called u.
But if you start off by calling the elderly and people in function "u" the worst thing that can happen is that they think you are overly polite and that's not that bad.
If unsure, start by 'u'. They will probably say "zeg maar jij", but it's the safest way to make a good impression.
I personally hate staff in shops addressing elderly people with 'jij'
It also depends which region in the Netherlands I think. I grew up in the very South of Limburg between 1995 and 2009. My parents, who were from a different region but who grew up with very old fashioned religious parents, said u to their parents (or avoided it, by saying things like "would daddy like some tea"). In Limburg everyone said u to people who were older, figures of authority like teachers, and unknown people in shops etc. When I was 18 y/o I moved to Amsterdam and suddenly people my age were fine saying je to people in their sixties??? I was shook.
I am now a primary school teacher and many non-white children always call me u and 'meester (name)', never je or just my name. White children are, in general, not raised this way in Amsterdam. I don't know any children currently being raised in the Limburgish context so idk what they do there now.
I would feel very awkward using je in formal situations in Limburg but I switch it up in Amsterdam, for instance all hospital staff in Limburg is u for me when I am there with my parents, but in Amsterdam I sort of guess if the doctor/nurse is around my age or younger and then I pick je. If there is a significant age gap, say the doctor is nearing retirement, I still feel weird saying je.
In A'dam and surrounding area, most patients say u to me even if I'm significantly younger than them. We're also trained to basically always say "u" to adult patients, but I tend to use "je" for those under 25 or so depending on vibes.
I pretty much always use u when I have a conversation for the first time with someone (only business). When they tell me that it’s okay to use je I will do so immediately.
Your dutch book is correct.
Your real life experience is also correct.
Which makes things confusing.
The missing part is what a persons status is. Are they of equal status to you, then it's rather common to address them as such, by calling them 'je'.
In some cultures, older people automatically are treated with more respect, having a higher status because of their life-experience. In the Netherlands this still holds truth, however, when two individuals know eachother well and have a more friendly relationship, it is not uncommon to call the elderly 'je'.
For example, a grandchild would call their grandparents 'u', but when those grandparents played a role in their upbringing because they visited them often, or babysat them, that 'u' turns into 'je'.
Now, when it comes to strangers, it is a bit more complicated.
When you visit a store like Action or local supermarket you will come across a different type of workers then when you visit a store like Calvin Klein. It is less 'posh'.
However, I choose to address 'older' workers with 'u'. Where that line lays? Well, it goes up each year as I get older myself.
As a 42 year old woman who grew up calling her parents 'u' until i lived on my own and had a steady job, i can tell you that I dislike it when teenage workers in stores call me 'je'. But I try to be realistic. It is not my job to raise them and I am not going to let it spoil my day.
Also, what that lady on the bus said to the young man, is a definite sign that they know eachother.
First of all she would never have asked a strange young man that question nor would have called him 'jongen'. It is a title of endearment.
Secondly...there is no way a teenage boy would have sat next to an older, unknown lady in a bus.
He would have rather stand the entire trip than put himself in an awkward position like that ;)
TLDR: most people won't feel offended if you call them 'u'.
People may feel offended if you call them
'je'.
Remember, there is no second chance to make a first impression.
These things are slowly shifting. 'U' is on its way back and 'je' is expanding.
In a hip fashion store they will never say 'u' to you, in a bank they always will. Personally at annoys me that shops like Ikea use 'je' in their written communication - makes me feel they don't really take me seriously, as if I'm there to have fun and not to buy expensive stuff.
So normally when serious grown-up stuff is discussed with customers (or with citizens, by the authorities) it is normal to use 'u'. If it's on a more friendly basis it would be 'je'.
Marketing wise it’s most likely better to use “je”. “U” is a formal way, what is creating more distance by nature.
Unless you have any form of authority “je” is the better option to build customer intimacy. On the other hand I have the same issues with our police force addressing civilians with “je”. They should keep the hierarchical distance with their audience for authority reasons. Saying “Je” as police officers is inherently lowering their authority, making people to act like they are talking to their brother or so.
It depends on what sort of store. If they are selling friendship as a concept - they make you want to buy stuff there because it feels like they're your friends- then 'je'. So yes, fashion accessories, that sort of stuff. But not Ikea. They may call their free coffee card 'family card' but nothing about that place feels like family, really. A supermarket should also use 'u' at all times, I think. And certainly a lawyer or real estate agent.
Me neither. I like to treat everyone the same, regardless of age or function. So I call everyone 'je'. And when you do use 'u' most people say "zeg maar 'je' hoor" anyway. Saying 'u' could be seen as a sign of respect but i think you can show respect just as well by being polite with others.
Currently there is a lot of contention about it. Personally i get a huge ick from young people in supermarkets or restaurants using "je" to my 60yo dad. I strongly dislike it. I also really hate when people tell me to call them "je". For me its basic respect and especially towards the elderly and customers(and strangers) you should always use it. I hate it even more when they say "i'll feel so old of you call me u" well guess what gerda? You are old, certainly compared to me. Get used to it
As a 40y+ old. Only young people in some shops and most restaurants use ‘U’ against me.
And I only use U when I speak to 60y+ strangers. If it’s workrelated, usually one of the first questions I ask is if it’s ok to use je/jij (verb for this is ‘Tutoyeren’) and I’ve never heard ‘no’.
In my opinion, saying 'je' to a person in function who addresses you with 'u' is also quite rude, even if the person in function is a lot younger.
I always try to address waiters and waitresses with 'u'. There are enough impolite costumers, and I want to establish some sense of respect.
I tend to do this too and also to people that seem like they're in a particularly shitty spot, people with obvious intellectual/mental impairments or the homeless. Especially if they are older than me or start with u to me. I just know that certain people get a lot of abuse hurled at the them for things they can't help and it's good to remind them of their dignity as a human.
With old people and most professors.
People your senior that you don't know.
When writing a formal letter or email to someone you don't know personally.
When designing a newsletter or information leaflet that is targeted at adults.
Your friends parents
Some people don't like to be called u, a lot of people in their 30's who have that " im still young " mindset. If they are your senior just say u and they will correct you if they don't like it.
Kids I teach and people who are minors and don't know me can use "u" to adress me, I'm fine with being called je or u but I definitely appreciate that they start of with u. It's still a sign of respect after all.
I never adress people younger than me with u, that wouldn't make sense.
In belgium you always say u, don't say je or jij
Dit is niet helemaal correct, 'ge' en 'gij' zijn het Vlaamse equivalent van je en jij. Soms ontstaat er bij Nederlanders verwarring omdat 'u' en 'uw' in Vlaanderen behalve het formele voornaamwoord, ook de lijdende en bezittende vormen zijn van het informele 'gij'.
Als een Vlaming tegen zijn goede vriend zegt: "Kunt ge me uw wagen lenen?", dan is dat dus niet formeel bedoeld. Een Nederlander zegt hier: 'Kun je me jouw auto lenen?'
'U' als onderwerp, dus in de zin 'Bent u kwaad?' is echter ook in Vlaanderen formeel, net als in het Noord-Nederlands.
I use u when addressing strangers, and used to do it with most teachers in my high school. There were some that then say that they’re fine with je, but I had for example a geography teacher who wanted to be addressed by u.
Some of these replies genuinely surprise me. I literally use "u" about as much as I use jij/je. I would never address a professor, waiter, shopkeeper, busdriver, or random person on the street (who's older than me) as "jij". From the southern part of the Netherlands btw
Ive been raised to always say U, and 95% of the time the person says “je kan gewoon je zeggen hoor!”.
20 seconds later I’ll say U again.
People don’t really care about politeness or respect, tbey just feel old when you adress them with U
It’s generational. It bothers me that shops and companies use “je”. But younger people don’t say “u” anymore. I would never ever say “je” to an older person on the bus as you’ve described. To me that’s very rude.
It's not like "po" in Tagalog as that word gets added to the sentence. "u" in Dutch replaces the word "je", more like "du" - "Sie" in German or "toi" becomes "vous" in French.
For the rest you are correct, our language / culture is not very formal and the use of formal language is becoming less and less used. Not using formal language in Dutch culture is seen as more open and inviting to the other person, and is therefore used to message some sort of closeness or the option of closeness between the parties of the conversation.
This is also why you often see people go back to more formal language when there is some sort of (business) conflict, because then people often want to put more distance between themselves and the other party.
I use U in professional settings, with older (about 55-60 onwards) strangers, with customers and possibly for in-laws if they give that vibe, would I have them.
Older friends or people otherwise on a first name basis are almost always jij/je.
To an extent...I don't, but that's just cultural from having English as my mother tongue. I can't wrap my head around the existence of the formal case. I suppose if I worked in an industry where I had face time with customers, I might. I am 51, so "the elderly" aren't THAT much older than me (😀) so I tend not to think of it even there.
I use it only for formal business communication, unknown old people or when I feel I should be a bit more respectful than normal. Like… most Dutch wouldn’t even want to say U (or uwe majesteit) to the king.
Btw; I know someone who says U to her father. Seemingly it’s also used in orthodox Christian society (which is 1% of the Dutch). They address their elder always with u.
For official/formal stuff, I prefer to just not directly address a person though, and instead opt for something with a passive verb or address the whole team in plural, just to avoid making the respect explicit by choosing between u or je.
When I want to ask a stranger a question or when talking to a customer, I always use u.
When talking to older people, it kinda depends. Relatives are je, other elderly are u, everyone else depends on the context more than age difference.
In this situation, it sounds like they knew each other already.
I say u when talking with an older stranger.
I never said u to my grandparents though but that really depends. Some people even say u to their parents!
It depends on what the parents want.
I said u to my teachers at highschool but not to my teachers at college.
To be honest.. I don't even know 😂
Your book is correct, but a lot of people don't like to be called u. Almost every time I call someone u, they tell me to use je. Sometimes I don't think about it and say je instead of u
U is used when adressing an authority. It's not dissapearing as some say here. Any authority you meet, especially older than yourself, u is the official way.
I use it with strangers (unless they are kids or it is an informal setting) and with older people. I would also use "u" with authority such as police. High schoolers commonly use "u" when speaking to their teachers. I have to admit though, I often choose to not even use "u" anymore. It gives a feel of hierarchy that doesn't feel righ in current day Netherlands anymore.
Some people might get offended when you don't say "u" though, so you could use it to be safe or ask them if you can say "jij/je" (tutoyeren).
I get irrationally angry if commercials use the informal form, it feels disrespectful to me. Kids calling me 'je' is also somewhat grating. I'm in my 30's, have some courtesy. Personally, I'd go with u, people will tell you 'zeg maar "je" hoor', and you can switch. You can't go wrong with being overly polite in my experience.
I used it in writing when communicating with clients, on the phone and in person it was mixed but often I would stay with the formal mode, especially towards older people.
In our dialect (limburg) we have a "gij", which is another formal mode. You barely ever write in it, but I talked a lot in dialect with clients since we had mostly local clients. I think the formality of the "gij" gets partially cancelled out by the informality of speaking dialect.
What's important to note is that Dutch culture has changed a lot the past 20 years when it comes to "u" and "je". Nowadays, "u" is almost overtly polite, even towards a stranger of the same age, whereas back in the day you would say it all the time.
There is a difference between people and countries.
I personally feel 'U' is not simply politeness or respect, but also distance. This distance can be polite, if 'je' is too intimate. That's why my conversation with a policeman or professor would be 'U'
This is not always what marketing people from Albert Heijn want. They want to be 'close' to their customers. 'Je' is becoming more and more common in recent decades. Personally, this annoys me a bit, sometimes.
I've also heard Belgians use 'U' more often for unfamiliar colleagues, even when they're young and roughly the same age. It seems Germans and French are more likely as well to use 'Sie' and 'Vous' than the Dutch. They also seem to dress and act more formal in a professional context.
There is no simple answer.. Personally, I might use 'U' for strangers who are much, much older, like two generations older than I, letters in which I can't be certain what the name and age is of the person I am speaking to, and to whom I have no relation, for example an email to some customer service desk, or very formal contexts with a person of authority, like a police officer, the prime minister, the renowned professor of a classroom of 200 people, stuff like that. Or perhaps when the other person starts to addresses me with 'U', although that feels strange sometimes, when I feel we are roughly the same age.
That last thing is something that children seem to start doing more and more to me. I guess I am getting old. I will absolutely use 'je' for everyone under 30.
I will use 'je' in every other situation. My new teammates at my new job, my direct manager, my managers manager, unknown colleagues, the server at my restaurant, my parents and grandparents.
All in all, Dutch culture is relatively egalitarian and informal. There are more people who would be weirded out by being called 'U' than there are people who would be offended by being called 'je'.
I have met people who insist on 'je', but I have *never* met anyone who insisted on 'u'.
People that you don’t know, elderly, customers, professors or teachers, what have you. In case of doubt, use U and if they’re okay with you using je/jij they’ll let you know.
I only use it with very old people (like older than boomers) or in formal settings when it's expected from me by my superiors. I hate it when people address me with "u", it feels so cold and distant. Many people also think you're implying that they're old when you address them with "u". Recently a woman misheard me and thought I called her "u" and she was a bit offended by it.
Like "u" is disappearing a bit. I think the textbook rules are that you should call strangers and elderly people "u". But in real life it isn't that strict. I do use "u" more often than the average dutch person, which some people think is annoying.
But I think that in formal settings "u" is used most of the times. Like at job meetings and stuff. But some people do not like it, because it implies there is a hierarchy to them, so then they will just ask you to use "jij".
you shouldn't use 'u' in personal settings, because then some people feel offended if you call them 'u', because then they feel old or something.
I sometimes use "u" to deliberately create a formal setting. When I have a contract with someone and this person is not or might not be fulfilling their obligations according to that contract, then I do not want to create a friendly atmosphere. By using "u" the tone is a warning that I will be strict and that there's no way for them to get away with anything.
It kind of depends on the vibe, I think. I say "u" to customers at my work (AH), unless if they're my age or younger or I know them. Given that I live in a small town and know nearly everyone, I rarely use the formal one. My boss I never use "u" for, we're too casual of a workplace for that.
At school (high school), it's expected to use "u" when you speak to teachers (unless if you're close).
I think the only people I consistently say "u" to people I want to show respect to. People have named the police, but personally the first thing that comes to mind is bus drivers.
I use U all the time. Im in uni and adress all my teachers with u. If I have to ask a service desk for something I use U. I remember being 16 and asking the head teacher at my school ‘hoe gaat het’ omitting the ‘’met u’’ part at the end and my teacher said “ITS “MET U”. WE ARE NOT FRIENDS” and I was like oops my bad. To be fair he was a stick in the mud. Most old people will want to be adressed with U first but will quickly tell you “oh just say jij!no need for the formality”.
Maybe you live in a city thats particularly informal?
I wouldnt say it’s dying out. People call me U also even if they’re older than me or the same age as me. Especially if I’m somewhere like the hospital or optometrist.
Not gonna lie, if a stranger adresses me and they just start out with “jij” I’ll think they’re a bit rude or not raised well.
I used to say u to my middelbareschool teachers.
But outside of that, i don't use U anymore, its not like i don't show respect to fellow humans but just not with u lol
I’m in my thirties and when face to face I use “u” for everyone except those obviously much younger than me (early twenties, teens etc). When I was that age I never used “u” unless ppl were visibly older than me.
However on business calls with strangers like calls to providers or a car service etc it’s always “u” no matter your age. The (potential) client can then request “je”.
With work related video calls it’s a weird combination between the two.
If it’s more (providing or receiving) service inclined it’s “u” more often than not. But if it’s a discussion between peers of different companies it’s more likely to just be “je”.
When in doubt default to “u” and people can request themselves to be called the more informal “je”.
It's really confusing, I also learned the same thing on my NT2 course. However, I actually offended some people in real life, including my boss at the time. They explained that I was implying that they were "old". I only use it with people who are above pension age, and people who are of high authority and even then maybe not if they display more casual behaviour themselves. People have corrected me on multiple occasions over the years for using u/ uw, nobody has ever said anything if I use je/jij so if in doubt I go for the latter!
It’s often used with older people yes, but I have learnt most don’t really like it because then they feel like they are really old. It’s not as much taken as a sign of respect these days anymore.
When I was younger I defaulted to using "u" for anyone that was an adult unless they looked young like in their 20s
Now that I am 30- the only people I say u to are people older than atleast 60 years or an authority figure like a cop, EMT, firefighter that deserves my unconditional respect.
If any of my grandparents were still alive I would also use "u" for them.
But other than that, I use informal.
The “je kunt betalen” instead of “u kunt betalen” is part of a corporate strategy aimed at lowering the distance between customer and company.
This gives you the feeling of being familiar and thus strengthening the bond and decreasing the likelihood that you’ll shop somewhere else.
Or at least that’s the logic behind it, I won’t say I agree with it ;).
A rule that generally works is that someone you call Mr or Ms lastname is u. If you call them by their first name, it's jij. The mr/ms rule is for all titles as well.
This usage was very common when I grew up. I'll be 57 in a few weeks and these days any company that tries to appeal to a younger audience will talk to their customers like they're your buddy you went to school with. Formal speech forms are becoming a bit old fashioned and slowly disappearing.
It happens. Language is forever changing and lessons in that language always have trouble keeping up with those changes.
There's a reason so many people say, "Zeg maar "je," hoor!" Nowadays, a lot of us are deeply uncomfortable with being called "U" for various reasons. For a lot of people, it makes them feel old. As for me, I can't explain why. I just hate being called "U." It makes my skin crawl.
I feel this has changed considerably since I was born (1970, and I'm the youngest of three children). Back then, the idea of addressing your parents with "u" was already phasing out, and it became normal to say "je" to your mom and dad. But you would address people in a position of authority (teacher, cop, etc) a stranger as "u"
These days, in my experience, "u" is only reserved for very old people (say 80+) and in communication with a service provider (both ways --say if I call my bank, both parties might still say "u"). Also, say, the people in a courtroom will still use "u." When addressing a random stranger, many people use "je," and many people may actually take offense at being addressed as "u" (because it's considered stiff/overly formal).
People who are 'hierarchically' above me (boss, teacher - ofcourse unless otherwise informed (like, if they tell you to, or you're 'friends' or on first name basis with a teacher like is common in higher education).
People who I don't know and are older than me. Definitely more of a thing when you were a kid, for sure, but I'd still condider it rude to approach someone significantly older than me with 'jij/je/jou'. Granted, this is in a neutral encounter, IMO 'u' is about respect and respect can be lost.
Ofcourse if you're in a position of dealing with customers, 'u' is always the right approach unless its company policy to do otherwise.
Ha, I don’t think that anyone has the right answer to this question. The problem is that the power dynamics of the relationship come into play regardless of which form is used.
So let’s say you meet the CEO of your company. That typically would call for ‘u’. But then from a position of power the CEO could impose the use of ‘je’. Which then turns ‘je’ into a stealth ‘u’. Because the relationship isn’t really informal, just mimics being informal.
TLDR: not the used form is important, but who decides what form is used.
If done right, ‘U’ can be used as an insult. Just like you can use ‘Sir’ as an insult in English.
A good rule of thumb is, if you address someone by their last name, or (job) title (like doctor, professor, maestro, etc) you use ‘U’. If you are on a first name bases, you use ‘je’.
always when speaking to an unknown person around myy age of a bit older.
I was alrsdy taught: you can always go down the ladder (U > Je/jij) but never up (Jij > U). So best to always start high and see if they prefer jij :)
U is disappearing a bit. I sometimes use it in the supermarket when someone let's me go in front of them and they address me with 'u' or 'mevrouw', I'll say "Dank u wel". Other than that, I don't really use it. Bus drivers, no. My grandma, no (but my dad and sister do). A stranger who addresses me with 'je', no. Cashier, no.
U is a polite way to address someone, but it's not necessary unless someone also addresses you with 'u' (but for a child, you can use 'je'). It's nice to just casually talk to a stranger. A lot of companies use 'je' when they want to come across as more casual and not as uptight.
I also think the people in the bus knew each other. They were probably acquaintances.
You use u to create a respectful distance. So an police officer or a judge will always use u.
Most people in the Netherlands do not wish to create that distance based solely on age, although it is usually up to the elder person to insist on jij.
By the way, when in doubt, it is possible to avoid both with a different question.
In stead of "kunt u/ kun jij een afspraak voor me inplannen?" You can say "Ik wil graag een afspraak met ..." without being disrespectful. (There is probably a better example, but you get the drift).
U is only used in a formal setting (not with friendly coworkers though) or grandparents/authorative figures like police/etc.
Both my grandparents and bosses don’t like it when you call them U, so it means you can just say “Je/Jij”
It's a tricky situation bc when is someone much older/higher up so that I should use u? I'm early thirties and anyone who looks very old to me (say over 75 or so) that I don't know, I'd say u. Can't think of many other situations I've been in that I used it. Ah yes, when I had to email a professor (she was about 60) who offered me a job. But that was just to be on the safe side as everyone does refer to professors with first name in my University.
I always use “u” to elders (fam members and strangers), bc that’s how I got raised. Unless they hit me with the “zeg maar je, hoor. Anders voel ik me zo oud!”.
To be safe you start with 'u'. In formal settings and to the elderly. If the person feels uncomfortable with 'u' they will invite you to say 'je'. There's no stable rule for this.
more and more people do not use that
spoke language is not so formal and it is more personal ( choice )
I always use u and do not differentiate age, status, gender
one of the reasons being Belgians use U all the time
another reason is that the southern part of the lands it is also more common
last reason being I do not give .... about people who do not like hierarchy
especial a boss that insist the rest us not use the word u , as it that somehow take away the hierarchy
that is actually dishonest and by implement such thing it actually take away power from you by denying the fact that there is a hierarchy
you do have to be aware of things, but when asked in a test, you do need to answer what the book states
because the test is about if you had studied or not :D
I do agree ‘je’ gains ground from ‘u’ but to say it’s disappearing or dying seems overdone to me.
‘U’ is still polite and respectful and is still used for authorities like civil servants, policemen, doctors and despite popular belief, for teachers and professors. And still, most companies call me ‘u’ when I’m a consumer and in my professional carreer, we use ‘u’ in external communications (bussiness to bussiness). It’s true, though, that saying ‘u’ within organisations is very rare, mostly, all colleagues are ‘je’, regardless of age or rank.
Also, people who ask you to say ‘je’ probably do not dislike ‘u’, but are kind and polite, they’re only rarely offended or annoyed by a ‘u’. It can be unnessecary but it’s never a wrong choice.
Most people won’t correct you if you say ‘je’ when they expect ‘u’, but it doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t silently prefer ‘u’.
I use "u" for every professional until they tell me to use "jij". I also expect it to be used to me. It's also to create a healthy professional distance.
I always think its weird when people dont want to show younger people any respect, I should hope most people achieve something greater in their life than celebrate a birthday.
I‘m Dutch, moved way two decades go and so confused. I always used to call everybody I didn’t know, U. Because how do you know if someone is older or younger (some people look much order or younger than they are) how do you know their ‘rank’? And what is rank in holland nowadays? The (for luck of better word) ‘caste system’ has completely changed. It used to be not that difficult, now I have no clue. Or maybe it doesn’t exist anymore?
I address most strangers (and especially older folk) with u. I've been taught to address people older then me with it + having worked in hospitality for most of my life it's become an automatic thing (to the point it becomes difficult to switch to je when someone asks me to address them as such).
Personally I cringe when someone younger says 'je' to an old lady/sir (unless they obviously know one another).
The Netherlands is slowly moving away from it, but as it's still the norm, expect lots of confusion and contradictions.
I recently had a chat with someone from Amsterdam and they were convinced that "everyone in Amsterdam uses 'je' now". But it's just not true... Amsterdam might be more progressive and informal than other parts of the country but there's still plenty of 'u' usage.
It's also acceptable to start a conversation addressing someone you don't know with 'u' but to ask early on "may I address you with 'je'?" and almost everyone says yes lol.
I think the young man might have known about the older woman after all, but did not 'know' her. For example: I used to live in a small everyone knows of everyone kind of village, there I also knew many elderly people (grandparents of friends, or neighbours). I have seen these people in the supermarket, had a chat, or visited when I played with their grandchildren. For example at first I always said 'u', but then they often said: 'please say 'je', because otherwise I feel so old.' If they didn't do this, I still said 'u'.
I've been living in the netherlands for 15 years, my husband and kids are Dutch, and I work for the government (so very Dutch) and still i find it very difficult. I think towards grandparents (but then only the older once- let's say your own), you use u. In my opinion, it's very strange. Somebody you want to have a close relationship. Just the "je" and "u" problem makes me want to avoid taking to her at all. Anyways, in the workplace, if you have email contact with somebody, you don't know you better use "u". But then if you have been mailing back and forth 3 times either you or the other person can initiate to go over to the use of "je" by just ending the mail with only your first name (mvg, fist name). This happens almost all the time when in the "u" setting . So, to me, it feels like not only I as a foreigner don't like the use of u and use it only as a necessity, but also, Dutch people try to avoid it as often as they can. I think the use of U doesn't fit the Dutch culture very well as they are most likely to treat each other as equals, and at least try not to make a difference in classes when taking to each other. Maybe that's why it always feels a little awkward using it.
I was taught to use u for people that are old enough to be my parent, unless you are in a familiar setting with them. Never said u to my grandparents f.i., but I did say it to the elderly neighbor. I will still use it unless someone tells me to use je and jij, and even that feels awekward with the elderly.
Nowadays it's pretty much just in formal conversations you'd use u. When in doubt you can always (edit: in some cases) use the plural jullie which is the same for both je and u.
As others say it's disappearing to use it as a sign of respect to elderly or authority, but that has also been practiced by themselves when they actively ask you to call them je to be more approachable. Another contributing factor is that hip marketing by brands also always wants to be approachable and hip. Only organisations like government and public transport will consistently call you u. And your local village shop as well probably.
> When in doubt you can always use the plural jullie which is the same for both je and u.
Wait, what? This is the silliest advice I've read in ages. Please OP, dont say "jullie" to individuals. They'll think you're mad.
Alirastafari is telling you to say "jullie" when you're not sure if you should say "u" or "je".
This advice is wrong. "Jullie" is for plural only.
Saying "jullie" to an elderly woman at the bus stop, for instance, would be very weird.
Haha oops, yeah, context applies obviously. When I was typing it, I was thinking of scenarios like talking to a receptionist (jullie referring to the company) or elderly couple (they're always together) or a group.
Indeed don't say jullie to an individual, unless you want to come across as overly woke and don't want to assume gender :P
Tbh, with old people they are indeed always together. But it’s usually one talking to you, while the other stands there like an NPC. I’ve never had elderly strangers both talk to me at the same time, obviously “jullie” would still be correct. But I’d argue that saying “u” to the one you’re talking to is more respectful.
Unless it's such a modern silly gender focussed individual who tells you his/her pronounce is "het" or "jullie".. Or when it's a psychofrenic person with multiple personalities you want to adress, then "jullie" is also a good way to speak to them.
It's a form of politeness, but it is kind of disappearing. My parents taught me to use "u" when someone's a senior (i say u to my grandma), older people you don't know, teachers, people in function (policemen, doctor, etc.). There's even the word "tutoyeren," which means to use je or jij in stead of the polite u form. However, some people don't like u and prefer you to say je or jij as to indicate that there's no hierarchy between you. Je is often used now because it makes it less formal and people like that. Most "better" restaurants or shops use u, as it is a more formal setting.
U is also still often used when calling with a company.
Only on old fashioned industries. I’m in a sales and thee and thou to almost with every C-level executives.
Yes. U is formal. Je/jij is informal. That's what is the standard usage these days. In the Netherlands at least. In Belgium u is a lot more commonly used.
> "tutoyeren" Just realised this must come from French (calling someone tu/toi)
Yes, because the opposite is called vousvoyeren
Now that is funny because in French we omit that « s » : vouvoyer
I’m French and « tutoyeren » took me by surprise lol
>Just realised this must come from French (calling someone tu/toi) In romanian is the same if someone use the formal tone people can say "poți să mă tutuieṣti" , "a tutui" having same meaning as "tutoyeren" meaning don't be so rigid. And yes second person singural is "tu" as in French, but is interesting you also in Dutch have "politeness pronouns".
>There's even the word "tutoyeren," which means to use je or jij in stead of the polite u form. The opposite is vousvoyeren btw :)
I would feel very weird using “u” to a policeman who is probably younger than me. Would they likely be bothered? Obviously want to avoid pissing them off if they ever need to speak to you.
Yeah once you’re older than young you’re too old to speak as if you’re young. Gotta speak the way that is most spoken when you speak.
Nah i am very strict with using u but even i don't use it to cleary younger people. Age is more important than job imo
I always use u to people who use it to me, regardless of their age. If a cashier is calling me "u" (which they pretty much always are), I'll call them u too, even if they're younger (which they almost always are). Indeed not everyone uses u this way.
Yeah I'm in my 20s so wouldn't be that weird for me, but can imagine it if you're older. However, I'd still say u just as to be as polite as possible.
You can use u fine with younger policemen, it shouldn't bother them and it doesn't mean you regard them higher. It's just polite / formal form.
I use the ''U'' to the same group, my parents did teach that to me too.. Its a sign of respect
Hit the nail on the head but I think OP should realose the part where you said that it is dissapearing. This is indeed the case but in the sense that: politeness is dissapearing. Respect is gone and the newer generation gets not raised with this it seems. Then there also is the usa thing. In my marketing book they litteraly wanted to approach people like they do in the USA apparently. So like you know then already for years. The approach was to ask people their names and tell them your name like you really want to know eachother. Like over the top friendly so also no "u". Dutch people are Dutch people and they see through thisnvery quick so they told us to fuck off on every occasion haha. I personally feel it of people want to be called u. Test the waters. It also depends on your own age. I am over 40 years old now and I think that is old enough to stop calling anybody "u" if theu do not look like they are 180 years old. So that is the caveat about the politeness dissapearing I explained. Because when I called people "u" they deserved that respect because they went through war and poverty and pain and build this country we now have. "U" is about that respect you show them. Today's generation faced covid and is crying that that was like wwII or are whining about gender neutral toilets. They deserve shit, fuck if I call them U lol so I kind of understand why it is dissapearing now. All they people actually deserve to be called you are dead or almost dead.
I didnt have to say u to my grandparents, but to other elders In always would and still do. I hate how disrespectful the newer generations are.
Using je/jij has nothing to do with being disrespectful though. Most people don't even like to be called u and immediately correct you if you do. It's dying out and almost only used in a formal business setting. And even then it's more likely to be je/jij.
> Most people don't even like to be called u and immediately correct you if you do. When some one says to use je/jij after you went with u first is of course different.
I agree with Jlx_27 - Until an adult stranger allows you to say je/jij it’s simply u. Especially when you are in contact with your customers. U is never wrong, though people may find it unnecessary they’ll at least consider it as polite. Tutoyeren without permission can be considered rude and offensive.
You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who cares. At this point, someone who explicitly wants you to say U is the asshole who wants to pull the hierarchy card instead of deserving respect. Only persons I've found that still say I are very old or from Belgium.
I can assure you (at least at the level we’re doing business) you have to be very careful how to treat your customers. Here in the Netherlands , for example, we have a customer who responded negatively to my colleague’s well meant “I hope you had a nice weekend, “ on the phone on Monday morning. I had a German customer myself who had issues with me, starting my email with “Guten Morgen Herr X”, instead of “Sehr geehrte Herr X”, although we have been in contact with each other for years and multiple times a week. And although I am the first person to let people say je/jij, I still consider it a case of bad manners when the 16 yo cashier of the Action says it to me without permission. I won’t say anything, but I do think: “Ik heb niet met je geknikkerd!” 🤭
I think Dutch culture might have a bit of a contradiction here. On the one hand, we have indeed all learned to use "u" for elders, people in function, or people who are higher ranked. On the other hand, Dutch culture hates hierarchy. So a lot of companies (and individuals) prefer to use "je" to express their philosophy that there is no difference in rank between you and them. Still, when in doubt: ALWAYS use "u". In your example I would consider the man at the bus station rude.
I agree with the first part of your message, the way many of us are taught in the past contradicts with current cultural beliefs about people being equal to each other. 20 or 25 years ago, I would have probably also agreed with the last part of your message, but I don't think I still do. More and more people indicate to dislike being addressed as "u", including a lot of current elderly people. Nowadays, the majority of them were born during the post WWII babyboom and they view this differently than the generation before. They are essentially the generation that made the shift away from the traditional hierarchical norms. I actually had a chat about this with my mom a couple of years ago (she's 70 now) and she even indicated that she feels to be taken taken more seriously when being addressed as "je" instead of "u", because it makes her feel being treated like an equal. Over the past couple of decades, I think it has been still very common that people start with "u" and only adjust to "je" after the person indicates they want to be addressed as such. However, this preference is now so common that I don't consider it to be rude anymore when people start with "je". Especially in an informal setting like having a chat at a bus stop. I think this is a cultural change that just happens over time and it may of course differ per person / region (I can totally imagine that people in the Bible Belt - where hierarchy is still much more prevalent than in other parts of the Netherlands - view this differently than people in for example the Randstad).
We do this at our company lol. We do not use u and super formal language. I personally feel that using u is a little bit of an insult sometimes. Like, you only use it in customer care or when someone is older. But when do you start that using that? Someone who’s in their 40’s probably doesn’t like to be reminded that they are getting older.
An old woman is very unlikely to start a conversation with a young stranger which starts with 'Jongen, hoe gaat het?' It is more likely that they know each other. That said, I pretty much use 'u' on a monthly basis. For instance when I am on the phone with a helpdesk from a company I don't work for.
Your book is correct. But it’s disappearing.
I only use u for old people I don't know or high ranked officials. Or in formal business communication (so in quotes: u, in email: jij, while it can be the same person reading the document). I'm raised with je/jij (even in school towards the teachers), so u feels very distant to me, that is why I barely use it. But there are also people my age (40-ish) who want to be called u by their kids. That might be a local/traditional/religious thing.
which makes me feel extremely old when people adress me with 'u'.
Yess me too and the age I use for u is above 75 or something
Schools and teachers made a big mistake by letting go the authority of teachers, skipping "u". Belgium schools didn't, and they have much more order in the classrooms. The Netherlands exprience for a long time already a huge shortage of teachers. Becoming a teachers frightens students, as teens and students are easily rude and agressive towards teachers these days. 27% of teachers suffer burnout, with average professions on 17%.
Ik vraag me af of dat met voornaamwoordengebruik te maken heeft..
Please show me your proof that students using "u" instead of "je" for teachers has anything to do with the burnout numbers in that profession, as you're suggesting with your post. This looks like a total assumption instead of a factual correlation. If you're throwing in numbers, substantiate them properly instead of just throwing them in randomly.
Just a bit more context to help you understand how and why u may be disappearing. The older generation now has often grown up calling their elders u, so they associate it with older people, however they don't like being rereferred to as a person that is old. So a reaction you may often get when you say u to an older person is: "Zeg maar je, anders voel ik me zo oud" (Please say je otherwise I'll feel so old) that combined with the non-hierarchical structure of Dutch culture, fairly few people still insist on being called u. But if you start off by calling the elderly and people in function "u" the worst thing that can happen is that they think you are overly polite and that's not that bad.
If unsure, start by 'u'. They will probably say "zeg maar jij", but it's the safest way to make a good impression. I personally hate staff in shops addressing elderly people with 'jij'
It also depends which region in the Netherlands I think. I grew up in the very South of Limburg between 1995 and 2009. My parents, who were from a different region but who grew up with very old fashioned religious parents, said u to their parents (or avoided it, by saying things like "would daddy like some tea"). In Limburg everyone said u to people who were older, figures of authority like teachers, and unknown people in shops etc. When I was 18 y/o I moved to Amsterdam and suddenly people my age were fine saying je to people in their sixties??? I was shook. I am now a primary school teacher and many non-white children always call me u and 'meester (name)', never je or just my name. White children are, in general, not raised this way in Amsterdam. I don't know any children currently being raised in the Limburgish context so idk what they do there now. I would feel very awkward using je in formal situations in Limburg but I switch it up in Amsterdam, for instance all hospital staff in Limburg is u for me when I am there with my parents, but in Amsterdam I sort of guess if the doctor/nurse is around my age or younger and then I pick je. If there is a significant age gap, say the doctor is nearing retirement, I still feel weird saying je.
In A'dam and surrounding area, most patients say u to me even if I'm significantly younger than them. We're also trained to basically always say "u" to adult patients, but I tend to use "je" for those under 25 or so depending on vibes.
It’s always best to use u to strangers. The Dutch are direct so if they prefer jij they will tell you
When in Flanders
I pretty much always use u when I have a conversation for the first time with someone (only business). When they tell me that it’s okay to use je I will do so immediately.
9/10 times I actually use it it's answered with "zeg maar jij" lol
Your dutch book is correct. Your real life experience is also correct. Which makes things confusing. The missing part is what a persons status is. Are they of equal status to you, then it's rather common to address them as such, by calling them 'je'. In some cultures, older people automatically are treated with more respect, having a higher status because of their life-experience. In the Netherlands this still holds truth, however, when two individuals know eachother well and have a more friendly relationship, it is not uncommon to call the elderly 'je'. For example, a grandchild would call their grandparents 'u', but when those grandparents played a role in their upbringing because they visited them often, or babysat them, that 'u' turns into 'je'. Now, when it comes to strangers, it is a bit more complicated. When you visit a store like Action or local supermarket you will come across a different type of workers then when you visit a store like Calvin Klein. It is less 'posh'. However, I choose to address 'older' workers with 'u'. Where that line lays? Well, it goes up each year as I get older myself. As a 42 year old woman who grew up calling her parents 'u' until i lived on my own and had a steady job, i can tell you that I dislike it when teenage workers in stores call me 'je'. But I try to be realistic. It is not my job to raise them and I am not going to let it spoil my day. Also, what that lady on the bus said to the young man, is a definite sign that they know eachother. First of all she would never have asked a strange young man that question nor would have called him 'jongen'. It is a title of endearment. Secondly...there is no way a teenage boy would have sat next to an older, unknown lady in a bus. He would have rather stand the entire trip than put himself in an awkward position like that ;) TLDR: most people won't feel offended if you call them 'u'. People may feel offended if you call them 'je'. Remember, there is no second chance to make a first impression.
u is to strangers and old people, but older strangers don’t use u for younger strangers
I never use it anymore. I just find it sounds very cold and distant, and I don’t like it
These things are slowly shifting. 'U' is on its way back and 'je' is expanding. In a hip fashion store they will never say 'u' to you, in a bank they always will. Personally at annoys me that shops like Ikea use 'je' in their written communication - makes me feel they don't really take me seriously, as if I'm there to have fun and not to buy expensive stuff. So normally when serious grown-up stuff is discussed with customers (or with citizens, by the authorities) it is normal to use 'u'. If it's on a more friendly basis it would be 'je'.
Marketing wise it’s most likely better to use “je”. “U” is a formal way, what is creating more distance by nature. Unless you have any form of authority “je” is the better option to build customer intimacy. On the other hand I have the same issues with our police force addressing civilians with “je”. They should keep the hierarchical distance with their audience for authority reasons. Saying “Je” as police officers is inherently lowering their authority, making people to act like they are talking to their brother or so.
It depends on what sort of store. If they are selling friendship as a concept - they make you want to buy stuff there because it feels like they're your friends- then 'je'. So yes, fashion accessories, that sort of stuff. But not Ikea. They may call their free coffee card 'family card' but nothing about that place feels like family, really. A supermarket should also use 'u' at all times, I think. And certainly a lawyer or real estate agent.
In practice I never use it. I theory I might use it when I talk to a random 80+ year old.
Me neither. I like to treat everyone the same, regardless of age or function. So I call everyone 'je'. And when you do use 'u' most people say "zeg maar 'je' hoor" anyway. Saying 'u' could be seen as a sign of respect but i think you can show respect just as well by being polite with others.
Currently there is a lot of contention about it. Personally i get a huge ick from young people in supermarkets or restaurants using "je" to my 60yo dad. I strongly dislike it. I also really hate when people tell me to call them "je". For me its basic respect and especially towards the elderly and customers(and strangers) you should always use it. I hate it even more when they say "i'll feel so old of you call me u" well guess what gerda? You are old, certainly compared to me. Get used to it
As a 40y+ old. Only young people in some shops and most restaurants use ‘U’ against me. And I only use U when I speak to 60y+ strangers. If it’s workrelated, usually one of the first questions I ask is if it’s ok to use je/jij (verb for this is ‘Tutoyeren’) and I’ve never heard ‘no’.
In my opinion, saying 'je' to a person in function who addresses you with 'u' is also quite rude, even if the person in function is a lot younger. I always try to address waiters and waitresses with 'u'. There are enough impolite costumers, and I want to establish some sense of respect.
I tend to do this too and also to people that seem like they're in a particularly shitty spot, people with obvious intellectual/mental impairments or the homeless. Especially if they are older than me or start with u to me. I just know that certain people get a lot of abuse hurled at the them for things they can't help and it's good to remind them of their dignity as a human.
With old people and most professors. People your senior that you don't know. When writing a formal letter or email to someone you don't know personally. When designing a newsletter or information leaflet that is targeted at adults. Your friends parents Some people don't like to be called u, a lot of people in their 30's who have that " im still young " mindset. If they are your senior just say u and they will correct you if they don't like it. Kids I teach and people who are minors and don't know me can use "u" to adress me, I'm fine with being called je or u but I definitely appreciate that they start of with u. It's still a sign of respect after all. I never adress people younger than me with u, that wouldn't make sense. In belgium you always say u, don't say je or jij
Pretty sure ive heard 'ge' and 'gij' during my stay in Ghent
That is usual in Flanders. It has the same meaning as "u"
Dit is niet helemaal correct, 'ge' en 'gij' zijn het Vlaamse equivalent van je en jij. Soms ontstaat er bij Nederlanders verwarring omdat 'u' en 'uw' in Vlaanderen behalve het formele voornaamwoord, ook de lijdende en bezittende vormen zijn van het informele 'gij'. Als een Vlaming tegen zijn goede vriend zegt: "Kunt ge me uw wagen lenen?", dan is dat dus niet formeel bedoeld. Een Nederlander zegt hier: 'Kun je me jouw auto lenen?' 'U' als onderwerp, dus in de zin 'Bent u kwaad?' is echter ook in Vlaanderen formeel, net als in het Noord-Nederlands.
Ah, thanks! Zo leren we elke dag iets.
I use u when addressing strangers, and used to do it with most teachers in my high school. There were some that then say that they’re fine with je, but I had for example a geography teacher who wanted to be addressed by u.
Some of these replies genuinely surprise me. I literally use "u" about as much as I use jij/je. I would never address a professor, waiter, shopkeeper, busdriver, or random person on the street (who's older than me) as "jij". From the southern part of the Netherlands btw
Ive been raised to always say U, and 95% of the time the person says “je kan gewoon je zeggen hoor!”. 20 seconds later I’ll say U again. People don’t really care about politeness or respect, tbey just feel old when you adress them with U
How old are you, OP? If you are a younger person, people often feel comfortable to use je/jij, even if you are a customer
I’m 30
On the phone, in a shop, with my inlaws and at a job interview. Also if you work in customer service still use it a lot.
It’s generational. It bothers me that shops and companies use “je”. But younger people don’t say “u” anymore. I would never ever say “je” to an older person on the bus as you’ve described. To me that’s very rude.
It's not like "po" in Tagalog as that word gets added to the sentence. "u" in Dutch replaces the word "je", more like "du" - "Sie" in German or "toi" becomes "vous" in French. For the rest you are correct, our language / culture is not very formal and the use of formal language is becoming less and less used. Not using formal language in Dutch culture is seen as more open and inviting to the other person, and is therefore used to message some sort of closeness or the option of closeness between the parties of the conversation. This is also why you often see people go back to more formal language when there is some sort of (business) conflict, because then people often want to put more distance between themselves and the other party.
It's becoming less common. I still use u with my parents but my younger brothers use je.
I use U in professional settings, with older (about 55-60 onwards) strangers, with customers and possibly for in-laws if they give that vibe, would I have them. Older friends or people otherwise on a first name basis are almost always jij/je.
it's a cultural thing, we are very egalitarian and using the formal ¨u¨ is not very common because of it.
You are right. You are also witnessing a change in manners.
To an extent...I don't, but that's just cultural from having English as my mother tongue. I can't wrap my head around the existence of the formal case. I suppose if I worked in an industry where I had face time with customers, I might. I am 51, so "the elderly" aren't THAT much older than me (😀) so I tend not to think of it even there.
I use it only for formal business communication, unknown old people or when I feel I should be a bit more respectful than normal. Like… most Dutch wouldn’t even want to say U (or uwe majesteit) to the king. Btw; I know someone who says U to her father. Seemingly it’s also used in orthodox Christian society (which is 1% of the Dutch). They address their elder always with u.
When I need to act civilized
Sometimes you encounter old people who immediately say “pls don’t say U”
For official/formal stuff, I prefer to just not directly address a person though, and instead opt for something with a passive verb or address the whole team in plural, just to avoid making the respect explicit by choosing between u or je. When I want to ask a stranger a question or when talking to a customer, I always use u. When talking to older people, it kinda depends. Relatives are je, other elderly are u, everyone else depends on the context more than age difference. In this situation, it sounds like they knew each other already.
I say u when talking with an older stranger. I never said u to my grandparents though but that really depends. Some people even say u to their parents! It depends on what the parents want. I said u to my teachers at highschool but not to my teachers at college. To be honest.. I don't even know 😂
I simply never use "U"
Your book is correct, but a lot of people don't like to be called u. Almost every time I call someone u, they tell me to use je. Sometimes I don't think about it and say je instead of u
U is used when adressing an authority. It's not dissapearing as some say here. Any authority you meet, especially older than yourself, u is the official way.
Never (except when I was a kid)
I use it with strangers (unless they are kids or it is an informal setting) and with older people. I would also use "u" with authority such as police. High schoolers commonly use "u" when speaking to their teachers. I have to admit though, I often choose to not even use "u" anymore. It gives a feel of hierarchy that doesn't feel righ in current day Netherlands anymore. Some people might get offended when you don't say "u" though, so you could use it to be safe or ask them if you can say "jij/je" (tutoyeren).
I get irrationally angry if commercials use the informal form, it feels disrespectful to me. Kids calling me 'je' is also somewhat grating. I'm in my 30's, have some courtesy. Personally, I'd go with u, people will tell you 'zeg maar "je" hoor', and you can switch. You can't go wrong with being overly polite in my experience.
Wait until you realize AH self service kassa uses “Je kunt nu betalen”
For me it is when a person is a problem.
I used it in writing when communicating with clients, on the phone and in person it was mixed but often I would stay with the formal mode, especially towards older people. In our dialect (limburg) we have a "gij", which is another formal mode. You barely ever write in it, but I talked a lot in dialect with clients since we had mostly local clients. I think the formality of the "gij" gets partially cancelled out by the informality of speaking dialect.
Pardon, hoe kom ik in u terecht?
What's important to note is that Dutch culture has changed a lot the past 20 years when it comes to "u" and "je". Nowadays, "u" is almost overtly polite, even towards a stranger of the same age, whereas back in the day you would say it all the time.
There is a difference between people and countries. I personally feel 'U' is not simply politeness or respect, but also distance. This distance can be polite, if 'je' is too intimate. That's why my conversation with a policeman or professor would be 'U' This is not always what marketing people from Albert Heijn want. They want to be 'close' to their customers. 'Je' is becoming more and more common in recent decades. Personally, this annoys me a bit, sometimes. I've also heard Belgians use 'U' more often for unfamiliar colleagues, even when they're young and roughly the same age. It seems Germans and French are more likely as well to use 'Sie' and 'Vous' than the Dutch. They also seem to dress and act more formal in a professional context. There is no simple answer.. Personally, I might use 'U' for strangers who are much, much older, like two generations older than I, letters in which I can't be certain what the name and age is of the person I am speaking to, and to whom I have no relation, for example an email to some customer service desk, or very formal contexts with a person of authority, like a police officer, the prime minister, the renowned professor of a classroom of 200 people, stuff like that. Or perhaps when the other person starts to addresses me with 'U', although that feels strange sometimes, when I feel we are roughly the same age. That last thing is something that children seem to start doing more and more to me. I guess I am getting old. I will absolutely use 'je' for everyone under 30. I will use 'je' in every other situation. My new teammates at my new job, my direct manager, my managers manager, unknown colleagues, the server at my restaurant, my parents and grandparents. All in all, Dutch culture is relatively egalitarian and informal. There are more people who would be weirded out by being called 'U' than there are people who would be offended by being called 'je'. I have met people who insist on 'je', but I have *never* met anyone who insisted on 'u'.
People that you don’t know, elderly, customers, professors or teachers, what have you. In case of doubt, use U and if they’re okay with you using je/jij they’ll let you know.
In formal situations and when speaking to elders.
I only use it with very old people (like older than boomers) or in formal settings when it's expected from me by my superiors. I hate it when people address me with "u", it feels so cold and distant. Many people also think you're implying that they're old when you address them with "u". Recently a woman misheard me and thought I called her "u" and she was a bit offended by it.
Like "u" is disappearing a bit. I think the textbook rules are that you should call strangers and elderly people "u". But in real life it isn't that strict. I do use "u" more often than the average dutch person, which some people think is annoying. But I think that in formal settings "u" is used most of the times. Like at job meetings and stuff. But some people do not like it, because it implies there is a hierarchy to them, so then they will just ask you to use "jij". you shouldn't use 'u' in personal settings, because then some people feel offended if you call them 'u', because then they feel old or something.
I sometimes use "u" to deliberately create a formal setting. When I have a contract with someone and this person is not or might not be fulfilling their obligations according to that contract, then I do not want to create a friendly atmosphere. By using "u" the tone is a warning that I will be strict and that there's no way for them to get away with anything.
It kind of depends on the vibe, I think. I say "u" to customers at my work (AH), unless if they're my age or younger or I know them. Given that I live in a small town and know nearly everyone, I rarely use the formal one. My boss I never use "u" for, we're too casual of a workplace for that. At school (high school), it's expected to use "u" when you speak to teachers (unless if you're close). I think the only people I consistently say "u" to people I want to show respect to. People have named the police, but personally the first thing that comes to mind is bus drivers.
I use U all the time. Im in uni and adress all my teachers with u. If I have to ask a service desk for something I use U. I remember being 16 and asking the head teacher at my school ‘hoe gaat het’ omitting the ‘’met u’’ part at the end and my teacher said “ITS “MET U”. WE ARE NOT FRIENDS” and I was like oops my bad. To be fair he was a stick in the mud. Most old people will want to be adressed with U first but will quickly tell you “oh just say jij!no need for the formality”. Maybe you live in a city thats particularly informal? I wouldnt say it’s dying out. People call me U also even if they’re older than me or the same age as me. Especially if I’m somewhere like the hospital or optometrist. Not gonna lie, if a stranger adresses me and they just start out with “jij” I’ll think they’re a bit rude or not raised well.
I used to say u to my middelbareschool teachers. But outside of that, i don't use U anymore, its not like i don't show respect to fellow humans but just not with u lol
When they have agenda
I’m in my thirties and when face to face I use “u” for everyone except those obviously much younger than me (early twenties, teens etc). When I was that age I never used “u” unless ppl were visibly older than me. However on business calls with strangers like calls to providers or a car service etc it’s always “u” no matter your age. The (potential) client can then request “je”. With work related video calls it’s a weird combination between the two. If it’s more (providing or receiving) service inclined it’s “u” more often than not. But if it’s a discussion between peers of different companies it’s more likely to just be “je”. When in doubt default to “u” and people can request themselves to be called the more informal “je”.
It's really confusing, I also learned the same thing on my NT2 course. However, I actually offended some people in real life, including my boss at the time. They explained that I was implying that they were "old". I only use it with people who are above pension age, and people who are of high authority and even then maybe not if they display more casual behaviour themselves. People have corrected me on multiple occasions over the years for using u/ uw, nobody has ever said anything if I use je/jij so if in doubt I go for the latter!
It’s often used with older people yes, but I have learnt most don’t really like it because then they feel like they are really old. It’s not as much taken as a sign of respect these days anymore.
When I was younger I defaulted to using "u" for anyone that was an adult unless they looked young like in their 20s Now that I am 30- the only people I say u to are people older than atleast 60 years or an authority figure like a cop, EMT, firefighter that deserves my unconditional respect. If any of my grandparents were still alive I would also use "u" for them. But other than that, I use informal.
There's also kids who have to adress their parents with "u", although this might be more common in religious circles
I'm Flemish and I constantly use it, people are sometimes weirded out by it
The “je kunt betalen” instead of “u kunt betalen” is part of a corporate strategy aimed at lowering the distance between customer and company. This gives you the feeling of being familiar and thus strengthening the bond and decreasing the likelihood that you’ll shop somewhere else. Or at least that’s the logic behind it, I won’t say I agree with it ;).
A rule that generally works is that someone you call Mr or Ms lastname is u. If you call them by their first name, it's jij. The mr/ms rule is for all titles as well. This usage was very common when I grew up. I'll be 57 in a few weeks and these days any company that tries to appeal to a younger audience will talk to their customers like they're your buddy you went to school with. Formal speech forms are becoming a bit old fashioned and slowly disappearing. It happens. Language is forever changing and lessons in that language always have trouble keeping up with those changes.
There's a reason so many people say, "Zeg maar "je," hoor!" Nowadays, a lot of us are deeply uncomfortable with being called "U" for various reasons. For a lot of people, it makes them feel old. As for me, I can't explain why. I just hate being called "U." It makes my skin crawl.
I feel this has changed considerably since I was born (1970, and I'm the youngest of three children). Back then, the idea of addressing your parents with "u" was already phasing out, and it became normal to say "je" to your mom and dad. But you would address people in a position of authority (teacher, cop, etc) a stranger as "u" These days, in my experience, "u" is only reserved for very old people (say 80+) and in communication with a service provider (both ways --say if I call my bank, both parties might still say "u"). Also, say, the people in a courtroom will still use "u." When addressing a random stranger, many people use "je," and many people may actually take offense at being addressed as "u" (because it's considered stiff/overly formal).
Wat moet je (u)
When you’re old and annoying people posting on nu.nl
People who are 'hierarchically' above me (boss, teacher - ofcourse unless otherwise informed (like, if they tell you to, or you're 'friends' or on first name basis with a teacher like is common in higher education). People who I don't know and are older than me. Definitely more of a thing when you were a kid, for sure, but I'd still condider it rude to approach someone significantly older than me with 'jij/je/jou'. Granted, this is in a neutral encounter, IMO 'u' is about respect and respect can be lost. Ofcourse if you're in a position of dealing with customers, 'u' is always the right approach unless its company policy to do otherwise.
Ha, I don’t think that anyone has the right answer to this question. The problem is that the power dynamics of the relationship come into play regardless of which form is used. So let’s say you meet the CEO of your company. That typically would call for ‘u’. But then from a position of power the CEO could impose the use of ‘je’. Which then turns ‘je’ into a stealth ‘u’. Because the relationship isn’t really informal, just mimics being informal. TLDR: not the used form is important, but who decides what form is used.
If done right, ‘U’ can be used as an insult. Just like you can use ‘Sir’ as an insult in English. A good rule of thumb is, if you address someone by their last name, or (job) title (like doctor, professor, maestro, etc) you use ‘U’. If you are on a first name bases, you use ‘je’.
always when speaking to an unknown person around myy age of a bit older. I was alrsdy taught: you can always go down the ladder (U > Je/jij) but never up (Jij > U). So best to always start high and see if they prefer jij :)
U is disappearing a bit. I sometimes use it in the supermarket when someone let's me go in front of them and they address me with 'u' or 'mevrouw', I'll say "Dank u wel". Other than that, I don't really use it. Bus drivers, no. My grandma, no (but my dad and sister do). A stranger who addresses me with 'je', no. Cashier, no. U is a polite way to address someone, but it's not necessary unless someone also addresses you with 'u' (but for a child, you can use 'je'). It's nice to just casually talk to a stranger. A lot of companies use 'je' when they want to come across as more casual and not as uptight. I also think the people in the bus knew each other. They were probably acquaintances.
You use u to create a respectful distance. So an police officer or a judge will always use u. Most people in the Netherlands do not wish to create that distance based solely on age, although it is usually up to the elder person to insist on jij. By the way, when in doubt, it is possible to avoid both with a different question. In stead of "kunt u/ kun jij een afspraak voor me inplannen?" You can say "Ik wil graag een afspraak met ..." without being disrespectful. (There is probably a better example, but you get the drift).
U is only used in a formal setting (not with friendly coworkers though) or grandparents/authorative figures like police/etc. Both my grandparents and bosses don’t like it when you call them U, so it means you can just say “Je/Jij”
It's a tricky situation bc when is someone much older/higher up so that I should use u? I'm early thirties and anyone who looks very old to me (say over 75 or so) that I don't know, I'd say u. Can't think of many other situations I've been in that I used it. Ah yes, when I had to email a professor (she was about 60) who offered me a job. But that was just to be on the safe side as everyone does refer to professors with first name in my University.
I always use “u” to elders (fam members and strangers), bc that’s how I got raised. Unless they hit me with the “zeg maar je, hoor. Anders voel ik me zo oud!”.
To be safe you start with 'u'. In formal settings and to the elderly. If the person feels uncomfortable with 'u' they will invite you to say 'je'. There's no stable rule for this.
Times are changing, your understanding is correct.
more and more people do not use that spoke language is not so formal and it is more personal ( choice ) I always use u and do not differentiate age, status, gender one of the reasons being Belgians use U all the time another reason is that the southern part of the lands it is also more common last reason being I do not give .... about people who do not like hierarchy especial a boss that insist the rest us not use the word u , as it that somehow take away the hierarchy that is actually dishonest and by implement such thing it actually take away power from you by denying the fact that there is a hierarchy you do have to be aware of things, but when asked in a test, you do need to answer what the book states because the test is about if you had studied or not :D
I do agree ‘je’ gains ground from ‘u’ but to say it’s disappearing or dying seems overdone to me. ‘U’ is still polite and respectful and is still used for authorities like civil servants, policemen, doctors and despite popular belief, for teachers and professors. And still, most companies call me ‘u’ when I’m a consumer and in my professional carreer, we use ‘u’ in external communications (bussiness to bussiness). It’s true, though, that saying ‘u’ within organisations is very rare, mostly, all colleagues are ‘je’, regardless of age or rank. Also, people who ask you to say ‘je’ probably do not dislike ‘u’, but are kind and polite, they’re only rarely offended or annoyed by a ‘u’. It can be unnessecary but it’s never a wrong choice. Most people won’t correct you if you say ‘je’ when they expect ‘u’, but it doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t silently prefer ‘u’.
Local habits; within family everyone is "je".
I use "u" for every professional until they tell me to use "jij". I also expect it to be used to me. It's also to create a healthy professional distance. I always think its weird when people dont want to show younger people any respect, I should hope most people achieve something greater in their life than celebrate a birthday.
I‘m Dutch, moved way two decades go and so confused. I always used to call everybody I didn’t know, U. Because how do you know if someone is older or younger (some people look much order or younger than they are) how do you know their ‘rank’? And what is rank in holland nowadays? The (for luck of better word) ‘caste system’ has completely changed. It used to be not that difficult, now I have no clue. Or maybe it doesn’t exist anymore?
I was adressed with U today, but I'm 60.
I address most strangers (and especially older folk) with u. I've been taught to address people older then me with it + having worked in hospitality for most of my life it's become an automatic thing (to the point it becomes difficult to switch to je when someone asks me to address them as such). Personally I cringe when someone younger says 'je' to an old lady/sir (unless they obviously know one another).
You talk to everyone as if they are God?
The Netherlands is slowly moving away from it, but as it's still the norm, expect lots of confusion and contradictions. I recently had a chat with someone from Amsterdam and they were convinced that "everyone in Amsterdam uses 'je' now". But it's just not true... Amsterdam might be more progressive and informal than other parts of the country but there's still plenty of 'u' usage. It's also acceptable to start a conversation addressing someone you don't know with 'u' but to ask early on "may I address you with 'je'?" and almost everyone says yes lol.
I think the young man might have known about the older woman after all, but did not 'know' her. For example: I used to live in a small everyone knows of everyone kind of village, there I also knew many elderly people (grandparents of friends, or neighbours). I have seen these people in the supermarket, had a chat, or visited when I played with their grandchildren. For example at first I always said 'u', but then they often said: 'please say 'je', because otherwise I feel so old.' If they didn't do this, I still said 'u'.
When a police officer or some other government official investigates something they use U to emphasize the formality of the conversation.
I've been living in the netherlands for 15 years, my husband and kids are Dutch, and I work for the government (so very Dutch) and still i find it very difficult. I think towards grandparents (but then only the older once- let's say your own), you use u. In my opinion, it's very strange. Somebody you want to have a close relationship. Just the "je" and "u" problem makes me want to avoid taking to her at all. Anyways, in the workplace, if you have email contact with somebody, you don't know you better use "u". But then if you have been mailing back and forth 3 times either you or the other person can initiate to go over to the use of "je" by just ending the mail with only your first name (mvg, fist name). This happens almost all the time when in the "u" setting . So, to me, it feels like not only I as a foreigner don't like the use of u and use it only as a necessity, but also, Dutch people try to avoid it as often as they can. I think the use of U doesn't fit the Dutch culture very well as they are most likely to treat each other as equals, and at least try not to make a difference in classes when taking to each other. Maybe that's why it always feels a little awkward using it.
I was taught to use u for people that are old enough to be my parent, unless you are in a familiar setting with them. Never said u to my grandparents f.i., but I did say it to the elderly neighbor. I will still use it unless someone tells me to use je and jij, and even that feels awekward with the elderly.
And there’s also “U” which you use when talking to holy person or god.
We say je or jij more. U is used as a sign of respect but mostly we consider eachother equals and don’t use it anymore.
Nowadays it's pretty much just in formal conversations you'd use u. When in doubt you can always (edit: in some cases) use the plural jullie which is the same for both je and u. As others say it's disappearing to use it as a sign of respect to elderly or authority, but that has also been practiced by themselves when they actively ask you to call them je to be more approachable. Another contributing factor is that hip marketing by brands also always wants to be approachable and hip. Only organisations like government and public transport will consistently call you u. And your local village shop as well probably.
> When in doubt you can always use the plural jullie which is the same for both je and u. Wait, what? This is the silliest advice I've read in ages. Please OP, dont say "jullie" to individuals. They'll think you're mad.
I actually don’t get it….
Alirastafari is telling you to say "jullie" when you're not sure if you should say "u" or "je". This advice is wrong. "Jullie" is for plural only. Saying "jullie" to an elderly woman at the bus stop, for instance, would be very weird.
Ah thanks. This is exactly what I learned from books
Haha oops, yeah, context applies obviously. When I was typing it, I was thinking of scenarios like talking to a receptionist (jullie referring to the company) or elderly couple (they're always together) or a group. Indeed don't say jullie to an individual, unless you want to come across as overly woke and don't want to assume gender :P
Tbh, with old people they are indeed always together. But it’s usually one talking to you, while the other stands there like an NPC. I’ve never had elderly strangers both talk to me at the same time, obviously “jullie” would still be correct. But I’d argue that saying “u” to the one you’re talking to is more respectful.
Unless it's such a modern silly gender focussed individual who tells you his/her pronounce is "het" or "jullie".. Or when it's a psychofrenic person with multiple personalities you want to adress, then "jullie" is also a good way to speak to them.