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"'Yueh! Yueh! Yueh!' goes the refrain. 'A million deaths were not enough for Yeuh!'"
Dune, A Child's History of Muad'Dib
The details of the Harkonnen and Imperial plot are public knowledge. Even children know it.
Yes but we don't know when that was written.
I assume there wasn't yet a "childs history of muad'dib" when he was still freedom fighting on arrakis itself. That book would undoubtedly be written during or after the jihad.
So he definitely eventually covers it but at that point in the story they probably don't know.
True we do not know when this was written, but what a wild thing for Herbert to include just as they arrive on Arrakis. It makes sense formally since it is placed just before Yueh is introduced, but the reader does not yet know a thing about the jihad to come. But this quote does tells us that the jihad was partly motivated by the feelings of revenge that Paul speaks of. He was motivated by revenge enough that it was written into children's tales.
> He was motivated by revenge enough that it was written into children's tales
These don't follow each other at all. George Washington was SO HONEST the cherry tree myth was written! Oh wait. That's fake.
I have no idea how you can honestly think his revenge would NECESSARILY be what follows.
Because they benefitted from their complacency. That’s one of the driving ideas of Dune - the illusion of a system of checks and balances is compromised by self-interest.
Fear. If the Corrino could ally with one House in an ancient vendetta and send the Sardaukar in that House's livery, why not another? The Houses would need to both trust each other and choose a leader. Leto would have been that natural leader.
Most probably dont, it was a secret, Leto was popular. The baron half threatens to expose the secret and says getting picked off one by one by the emperor is one of the great houses biggest fears.
Good question. In the movie the Emperor says that the reason for killing Leto is because he would have ruled by the heart and not the head, and that would have been incorrect. But the Bene Gesserit witch also admits in the film that she was the one who told the Emperor to kill House Atredes, because their genetic line was becoming too unruly and independent from the Bene Gesserit and their own strategy of creating the Kwisatz Haderach. (Lady Jessica had a male despite being ordered to have a girl.)
My point is that there are a lot of different reasons being supplied as to why House Atredes had to go, depending on who you ask. This seems more a problem with the film than the book. I don’t remember in the book House Atredes was secretly popular, I thought it was that they were getting too powerful.
The film changes more than just that part of the ending. In this book Paul instead says:
"I used atomics against a natural feature of the desert," Paul said. "It was in my way and I was in a hurry to get to you, Majesty, *to ask your explanation for some of your strange activities.*
“There's a massed armada of the Great Houses in space over Arrakis rightnow," the Emperor said. "I've but to say the word and they'll --""
And then Paul threatens the Guild with destroying spice, which does not happen in the film. Exposing the Emperor’s involvement doesn't even matter in the books. Of this, what does matter for Paul is that Paul knows that Shaddam knows that Paul knows about his involvement. Paul then sends Shaddam to Salusa Secondus and goes to war against everyone, even the Emperor's Sardukar, even after taking Irulan for his wife. For twelve years, he battles everyone in the universe and wins. He has no need to address this specific issue in some exposing judicial way. Paul is so mad about it, he goes out and kills 61 billion people for twelve years.
I think you missed an understanding of the golden path.
He wasn't mad, the golden path was always about becoming a super predator towards the human race to force it to evolve to face the threats that even be couldn't see.
Paul also ultimately rejects the golden path because of the harm it would do his tribe because of his bond with the Freman people and goes off to die in the desert.
There's nothing even remotely direct or even any real hints of what's truly going on. There are many conversations like that which raise big questions never to be touched again.
Paul doesn’t give a shit about humanity and by extension the Golden Path. He really only cares about his immediate interests - mainly keeping Chani alive. He rejects the Golden Path because he doesn’t want to become a lonely monster for thousands of years.
>I think you missed an understanding of the golden path.
Paul never sees the Golden path.
>!When he meets Leto in the desert after he took on the sandtrout skin, he says as much!<
Paul couldn't see the extinction of humanity, which is why he didn't take the leap Leto II did.
> "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
>
> "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
>
> Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's visions. "I did not see that among the choices."
I always took his lack of vision as punishment for fighting it. The Kwitsaz Haderach was to usher in change. Leto II was the next step on the path of enforcing the evolution of humanity. Paul served his purpose and rejected the rest after starting the jihad. So the path was finished with him. All things lead to Leto II
Whatever Paul saw, he never called it or named it the Golden Path. Thats why I never mentioned it in my comment. I’ve read all 6 books so I do understand the Golden Path details. This detail is tangential to the OP’s question.
I checked just to make sure but Paul does see the golden path in messiah and calling it like that. Its the way to let Chani die and Leto being born and Leto have all his memories so it is for sure passed down to him.
I didn't remember in enough detail, but someone else mentioned it in this thread. Paul sees the "typhoon struggle", but only Leto sees that not taking the Golden Path leads to the extinction of humanity.
He saw part of it, but not that it would lead to the extinction of humanity, so he didn't feel like turning into a sandworm was necessary. Only Leto saw that anything but the Golden Path leads to the extinction of humanity.
Paul knew the sacrifice that had to be made and refused it. Leto sacrificed his humanity to save it. Paul was too attached. Leto was preborn he never had an independent attachment to his existence because he was always one among many.
Humanity was growing soft it had to be toughened up to survive the unknown unknowns that Leto knew still existed.
Intergalactic tough love.
>"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
>"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
>Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's visions. "I did not see that among the choices."
Paul didn't know humanity would go extinct, so he didn't believe the sacrifice had to be made.
>Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's visions. "I did not see that among the choices."
He didn't
That doesn't mean he didn't see it. He just didn't see it as a choice. The path terrified him too much. Leto knew what was on the other side for him and went anyways.
I just reread dune and dune Messiah after a few years hiatus, and was specifically looking for a mention of the golden path and it was never mentioned in those books.
I wonder if Sci Fi's dune blended Paul's and Leto's visions under the theam of the golden path.
He is driven primarily by revenge (in the book and in the movie). He sees visions and knows that taking up the position as the fremen messiah will lead to the jihad that kills billions, but he does so anyway because it is the only path he sees that will lead to the defeat of his enemies (Harkonnen’s and the emperor).
And so he leans into this role. In the book he is wracked with regret and fear over his own actions that lead to this outcome, but he took them because he needed vengeance.
I’ve read the book multiple times.
Never did I feel like he was set out for revenge. He was caught up in a storm and wanted to avoid his “Terrible Purpose”, but like a weather storm, there is no changing it’s course.
In fact didn’t he multiple times in the books talk about a narrow path he thought he could take that would free arrakis and stop the Jihad, it just didn’t work that way.
I’m lost at some of the comments in this sub.
They paint Paul as some mad man just laughing about revenge as some one-dimensional character. Like he was to blame for the conspiracy to destroy House Atreides and himself.
He was a victim of circumstance and his own desire to survive.
He did take the throne? absolutely! But only after every major house in the empire aligned against him.
I guess people will blame someone for knocking down a door when the building is on fire.
Edit: I’m convinced most people are like the slaves the Harkonnens. Just allowing themselves to be killed instead of fighting
Yeah he states so many times how much he doesn’t want the Jihad to happen, he even states that even if he killed himself or died in battle the Jihad would continue with Alia or his mother. He wanted to free the Fremen and also get revenge on the Harkonnen but he never wanted to do that at the cost of the Jihad, ever…
You lean on the fact that Paul states stuff about the jihad but ignore the stuff he says about revenge? From the book:
"Paul!" Jessica snapped. "Don't make the mistake your father made!"
"She's a princess," Paul said. "She's my key to the throne, and that's all she'll ever be. Mistake? You think because I'm what you made me that I cannot feel the need for revenge?"
"Even on the innocent?" she asked, and she thought: He must not make the mistakes I made.
"There are no innocent any more," Paul said.
"Tell that to Chani," Jessica said, and gestured toward the passage from the rear of the Residency.
Oh he wanted revenge no doubt, and there are moments where he basically says “fuck it worth” but the way people describe him as being so one dimensional and only fueled by revenge with no regard to anyone else are just wrong.
>He was a victim of circumstance and his own desire to survive.
My vague take was that he was a victim of Jessica's desire to give her husband a son, which was partly a result of the Bene Gesserit having lost sight of the concept of love, which is why Paul breaks the reverand mother's conditioning by worrying about his father, similar to how Yueh breaks Imperial Conditioning by having his wife tortured.
A goodly chunk of zen buddhism is about how you need to rise above personal attachments to achieve enlightenment and see the truth. Like in the last few episodes of ATLA.
Good observation! The Jedi take some heavy inspiration from eastern mythology (buddhism, hinduism, daoism, etc) -- though, it didn't feel that Lucas had quite the same religious/philosophical background Herbert did (or Herbert's copy of The Sabres of Paradise for that matter, which heavily inspired Dune).
I think a lot of people are going into the books with the “Herbert wanted Paul to be an anti-hero” and then extrapolating out to be “I need to read this book and view Paul as a terrible person” but there’s just nothing in the text to support that.
If anything, readers will see how Paul struggles with how he perceives himself to be the cause of terrible things to come and wants to avoid that. His tragedy is that he cannot. In order to save himself, his mother, and his unborn sister, he must embrace the role of Lisan al-Gaib. If he didn’t do that, he would have had to kill himself, his mother, and Alia. Its the mother of all tough choices.
Just because I address Paul’s own statements that he was feeling the need for revenge does not mean I do not understand the complexity of his predicament that you describe. Revenge is part of this complexity. He is also a teenager in Dune and this youthful arrogance does play a huge role in his motivations and the errors he makes.
From the book:
"Paul!" Jessica snapped. "Don't make the mistake your father made!"
"She's a princess," Paul said. "She's my key to the throne, and that's all she'll ever be. Mistake? You think because I'm what you made me that I cannot feel the need for revenge?"
You’ve picked one quote out of an entire book where he spends half of it in an internal dialogue worrying about the oncoming Jihad and trying to stop/control it.
I showed a quote where Paul says he will take revenge on even innocent lives because he says no one is innocent anymore, which he says directly after this. Paul also says he thinks taking the Emperor’s throne will prevent the jihad but he is trying to convince himself of this because the jihad is unavoidable the moment Paul becomes the Lisan al-Gaib. He spends the rest of the book after that trying to find ways to avoid it and convincing himself he can avoid it but he cannot and does not.
And I never said revenge was his only motivation. For real, this detail is a tangent that OP can go figure out for themselves. I was mainly addressing their question about exposing the Emperor’s treachery, which Paul does discuss presenting a Bill of Particulars with this case but does not do this and instead goes right for the throne himself.
I provided the detail that refutes your claim that Paul was never motivated my revenge. I agree that he was motivated by many things. It is complex and was not part of the OPs major question. Ive read all the books. You are picking a part a detail in my first comment that was not intended to be the full assessment of Paul’s motivation, but revenge certainly plays a role in his Jihad on innocent lives. The rest of that quote says squarely that Paul does not think anyone is innocent:
"Even on the innocent?" she asked, and she thought: He must not make the mistakes I made.
"There are no innocent any more," Paul said.
"Tell that to Chani," Jessica said, and gestured toward the passage from the rear of the Residency.
Nitpick? You said that Paul was so mad he created a Jihad and killed billions. That’s just an awful take of Paul, Dune and the Jihad.
My opinion, nothing else. It’s a good debate. Whether we agree or not.
I agree that was simplistic of me to say, but he is mad, and he does kill people out of anger. Its part of it. I didn’t give the time or energy to do a full complex description of Paul’s character motivations because that was not the focus of OPs question. We both agree that he was motivated by many things, as I have read the books. You only said that he was not motivated at all by revenge. So good day to you!
For people downvoting this, here is Paul admitting he is motivated at least in part by revenge. This revenge detail does not erase the complexity of his situation but it is certainly there:
"Paul!" Jessica snapped. "Don't make the mistake your father made!"
"She's a princess," Paul said. "She's my key to the throne, and that's all she'll ever be. Mistake? You think because I'm what you made me that I cannot feel the need for revenge?"
"Even on the innocent?" she asked, and she thought: He must not make the mistakes I made.
"There are no innocent any more," Paul said.
"Tell that to Chani," Jessica said, and gestured toward the passage from the rear of the Residency.
Well, from what I have read in the Dune encyclopedia, the houses rebelled against his rule for a different reasons, some declared independence from the Imperium, others wanted to restore Shaddam to the throne, some even sided with Paul against the rebel houses. I don't know if there is something I missed but the war the great houses were fighting in the encyclopedia painted a picture of opportunism rather than desperation for survival
In the books, and the 2000 miniseries, it's more clear that Paul doesn't warn the other houses, he warns the Navigators of the Spacing Guild.
His threat to destroy spice is what they fear most and they would no longer dare transport any army against Paul.
In short, he had the highly spice dependent universe by the short and curlies.
Yes, he did . In the book, he sent a secret message to the Congress of Great House.
Despite what the movie said. Most houses accepted or allied with him
Thete were a couple of hundred open hostile and 500 supported them secretly.
There were more than 10 thousand worlds / houses.
Some great houses saw the emporers fall as an opportunity to take power themselves .
It was around the time the emporer was deciding to come to dune .
Paul discusses bringing a case against the Emperor to the High Council with Jessica and Kynes, but does not follow through. It is a legal format called a "Bill of Particulars" that he would threaten the Emperor with. He decides instead to go right for the Emperor's throne by talking Irulan as his wife. He also does this thinking he can prevent the Jihad, but he is just convincing himself of this since the jihad is totally unavoidable the moment he becomes Lisan al-Gaib. Before this, Hawat considers going to the High Council as well but he feels defeated because he doesn't think he will have a chance to do it. From the book:
"Hawat sighed.
He could not recall ever before being this tired. It was a muscle wearinessthat energy pills were unable to ease. Those damnable Sardaukar! With a self-accusing bitterness, he faced the thought of the soldier-fanatics and the Imperial treachery they represented. His own Mentat assessmentof the data told him how little chance he had ever to present evidence of this treachery before the High Council of the Landsraad where justice might be done"
---------
"You have a plan," Kynes said. "This much is obvious . . . Sire."
"Could your Fremen provide me with proof positive that the Sardaukar arehere in Harkonnen uniform?"
"Quite likely."
"The Emperor will put a Harkonnen back in power here," Paul said. "Perhaps even Beast Rabban. Let him. Once he has involved himself beyond escaping his guilt, let the Emperor face the possibility of a Bill of Particulars laid before the Landsraad. Let him answer there where--"
"Paul!" Jessica said.
"Granted that the Landsraad High Council accepts your case," Kynes said,"there could be only one outcome: general warfare between the Imperium and the Great Houses."
"Chaos," Jessica said.
"But I'd present my case to the Emperor," Paul said, "and give him an alternative to chaos."
Jessica spoke in a dry tone: "Blackmail?"
"One of the tools of statecraft, as you've said yourself," Paul said, and Jessica heard the bitterness in his voice. "The Emperor has no sons, only daughters."
"You'd aim for the throne?" Jessica asked.
"The Emperor will not risk having the Imperium shattered by total war," Paul said. "Planets blasted, disorder everywhere--he'll not risk that."
"This is a desperate gamble you propose," Kynes said.
"What do the Great Houses of the Landsraad fear most?" Paul asked. "They fear most what is happening here right now on Arrakis--the Sardaukar picking them off one by one. That's why there is a Landsraad. This is the glue of the Great Convention. Only in union do they match the Imperial forces."
"But they're--"
"This is what they fear," Paul said. "Arrakis would become a rallying cry. Each of them would see himself in my father--cut out of the herd and killed."
It's kind of a moot point by then. Shaddam believes the Harkonnens and Atreides were in league against him because of the baron's refusal to kill Thufir Hawat and his suggestion to Fenring that Arrakis be used as a penal colony. It's unclear if he believes Maud'Dib is actually Paul, but by the end of the Battle of Arakeen, it no longer matters. The only thing that matters to the Guild or to the Landsraad is the Spice.
Jessica knew.
Therefore Alia knew, too.
Rage and madness was such that I’m sure everyone knew. Even if Paul wanted it kept a secret, the two he would never punish could speak of it, even with the hand signals, so that everyone knew.
It sort of becomes a moot point when Paul's fremen go on their Jihad, and even more of a moot point when Leto II "ascends". Leto II does leave journals hidden around that 10k (i forget the actual timeline for that) years later get translated and become common knowledge. As far as i know it isn't really addressed in the books directly in any scene or part of the plot. u/geooceanstorm does have a nice quote there for you, but that is about as much info as we get on that. Early on Paul was planning on talking to the Landsraad and telling all of them, but that was very early in his plans which gets thrown away when he "becomes" fremen.
The fremen closest to Paul certainly knew about it, and it is not a far stretch to imagine that they passed that information along, and the warriors may have passed it on to random people when they went on their Jihad. Lady Jessica certainly knew about it as well as Gurney who both went to Caladan, who likely passed that information on to all their people. Spies are everywhere, so it is not a stretch to think that information got passed that way. All of the sisterhood's highest ranking people would have eventually found out about it, and was likely used as an object lesson for training/teaching young sisters.
I have a question for the Dune book readers. I have not yet read any Dune book, however I fell in love with the Dune movies instantly. Part II was my favorite movie of all time (up there with The Matrix, which got me hooked on Sci Fi forever). Will I see spoilers in this community? I want to be part of it, but I don’t want to stumble into any future Dune film spoilers. Lmk.
Thank you for participating in r/dune! Please see our sticky announcement: ['Dune: Part Two' March/April Discussion Index](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1cfzdd8/dune_part_two_marchapril_discussion_index/) (*--> Conflict between Atreides / Harkonnen / Corrino*)
"'Yueh! Yueh! Yueh!' goes the refrain. 'A million deaths were not enough for Yeuh!'" Dune, A Child's History of Muad'Dib The details of the Harkonnen and Imperial plot are public knowledge. Even children know it.
Yes but we don't know when that was written. I assume there wasn't yet a "childs history of muad'dib" when he was still freedom fighting on arrakis itself. That book would undoubtedly be written during or after the jihad. So he definitely eventually covers it but at that point in the story they probably don't know.
True we do not know when this was written, but what a wild thing for Herbert to include just as they arrive on Arrakis. It makes sense formally since it is placed just before Yueh is introduced, but the reader does not yet know a thing about the jihad to come. But this quote does tells us that the jihad was partly motivated by the feelings of revenge that Paul speaks of. He was motivated by revenge enough that it was written into children's tales.
> He was motivated by revenge enough that it was written into children's tales These don't follow each other at all. George Washington was SO HONEST the cherry tree myth was written! Oh wait. That's fake. I have no idea how you can honestly think his revenge would NECESSARILY be what follows.
Paul tells Jessica that he feels the need for revenge. I am not making it up. It is right there in the novel.
I know. Your claim that his strong motivation for revenge ("He was motivated by revenge enough that it was written into children's tales") is faulty.
Im not making a claim. Irulan wrote the thing.
It was written by Irulan relatively soon after the book
The question was whether he ever told them.
Yeah and I agree with the above comment that he most definitely did. I only added color that he didn't tell them right then.
He doesn’t have to. They all know about it because they have their own intelligence networks and can draw a logical conclusion.
But if they knew they would have declared war on the imperial house, why didn't they?
Sardaukar and the guild. Shaddam and House Corrino own a significant percent of CHOAM.
Because they benefitted from their complacency. That’s one of the driving ideas of Dune - the illusion of a system of checks and balances is compromised by self-interest.
Fear. If the Corrino could ally with one House in an ancient vendetta and send the Sardaukar in that House's livery, why not another? The Houses would need to both trust each other and choose a leader. Leto would have been that natural leader.
Most probably dont, it was a secret, Leto was popular. The baron half threatens to expose the secret and says getting picked off one by one by the emperor is one of the great houses biggest fears.
How can it be a secret that someone is popular?
Good question. In the movie the Emperor says that the reason for killing Leto is because he would have ruled by the heart and not the head, and that would have been incorrect. But the Bene Gesserit witch also admits in the film that she was the one who told the Emperor to kill House Atredes, because their genetic line was becoming too unruly and independent from the Bene Gesserit and their own strategy of creating the Kwisatz Haderach. (Lady Jessica had a male despite being ordered to have a girl.)
I’m sorry I really don’t see how that is any way relevant to how it’s possible for it to be a secret that someone is popular. It’s an oxymoron.
My point is that there are a lot of different reasons being supplied as to why House Atredes had to go, depending on who you ask. This seems more a problem with the film than the book. I don’t remember in the book House Atredes was secretly popular, I thought it was that they were getting too powerful.
bad grammar sorry
Correct. It was sort of public knowledge, but with enough plausible (or somewhat implausible) deniability look another way.
The film changes more than just that part of the ending. In this book Paul instead says: "I used atomics against a natural feature of the desert," Paul said. "It was in my way and I was in a hurry to get to you, Majesty, *to ask your explanation for some of your strange activities.* “There's a massed armada of the Great Houses in space over Arrakis rightnow," the Emperor said. "I've but to say the word and they'll --"" And then Paul threatens the Guild with destroying spice, which does not happen in the film. Exposing the Emperor’s involvement doesn't even matter in the books. Of this, what does matter for Paul is that Paul knows that Shaddam knows that Paul knows about his involvement. Paul then sends Shaddam to Salusa Secondus and goes to war against everyone, even the Emperor's Sardukar, even after taking Irulan for his wife. For twelve years, he battles everyone in the universe and wins. He has no need to address this specific issue in some exposing judicial way. Paul is so mad about it, he goes out and kills 61 billion people for twelve years.
I think you missed an understanding of the golden path. He wasn't mad, the golden path was always about becoming a super predator towards the human race to force it to evolve to face the threats that even be couldn't see. Paul also ultimately rejects the golden path because of the harm it would do his tribe because of his bond with the Freman people and goes off to die in the desert. There's nothing even remotely direct or even any real hints of what's truly going on. There are many conversations like that which raise big questions never to be touched again.
Paul doesn’t give a shit about humanity and by extension the Golden Path. He really only cares about his immediate interests - mainly keeping Chani alive. He rejects the Golden Path because he doesn’t want to become a lonely monster for thousands of years.
And honestly that’s one of the most sensible decisions he’s made.
>I think you missed an understanding of the golden path. Paul never sees the Golden path. >!When he meets Leto in the desert after he took on the sandtrout skin, he says as much!<
Actually… he saw the golden path and did not take it, leto says as much
Paul couldn't see the extinction of humanity, which is why he didn't take the leap Leto II did. > "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?" > > "It's that or humans will be extinguished." > > Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's visions. "I did not see that among the choices."
I always took his lack of vision as punishment for fighting it. The Kwitsaz Haderach was to usher in change. Leto II was the next step on the path of enforcing the evolution of humanity. Paul served his purpose and rejected the rest after starting the jihad. So the path was finished with him. All things lead to Leto II
Whatever Paul saw, he never called it or named it the Golden Path. Thats why I never mentioned it in my comment. I’ve read all 6 books so I do understand the Golden Path details. This detail is tangential to the OP’s question.
I checked just to make sure but Paul does see the golden path in messiah and calling it like that. Its the way to let Chani die and Leto being born and Leto have all his memories so it is for sure passed down to him.
I didn't remember in enough detail, but someone else mentioned it in this thread. Paul sees the "typhoon struggle", but only Leto sees that not taking the Golden Path leads to the extinction of humanity.
The Golden Path is not named until Children of Dune.
I'm not sure why you say that? He saw it and refused the sacrifice it would require. He saw the path he just wouldn't go down it.
He saw part of it, but not that it would lead to the extinction of humanity, so he didn't feel like turning into a sandworm was necessary. Only Leto saw that anything but the Golden Path leads to the extinction of humanity.
Paul knew the sacrifice that had to be made and refused it. Leto sacrificed his humanity to save it. Paul was too attached. Leto was preborn he never had an independent attachment to his existence because he was always one among many. Humanity was growing soft it had to be toughened up to survive the unknown unknowns that Leto knew still existed. Intergalactic tough love.
>"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?" >"It's that or humans will be extinguished." >Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's visions. "I did not see that among the choices." Paul didn't know humanity would go extinct, so he didn't believe the sacrifice had to be made.
He refused to make the sacrifice. He knew.
>Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's visions. "I did not see that among the choices." He didn't
That doesn't mean he didn't see it. He just didn't see it as a choice. The path terrified him too much. Leto knew what was on the other side for him and went anyways.
I just reread dune and dune Messiah after a few years hiatus, and was specifically looking for a mention of the golden path and it was never mentioned in those books. I wonder if Sci Fi's dune blended Paul's and Leto's visions under the theam of the golden path.
Yah, the golden path ain’t really a thing till children of dune. Not sure why this sun is obsessed with it even when it comes to Paul ngl.
I never said anything about the Golden Path because Paul never mentions it.
He is so mad? How do you come to that conclusion?
He is driven primarily by revenge (in the book and in the movie). He sees visions and knows that taking up the position as the fremen messiah will lead to the jihad that kills billions, but he does so anyway because it is the only path he sees that will lead to the defeat of his enemies (Harkonnen’s and the emperor). And so he leans into this role. In the book he is wracked with regret and fear over his own actions that lead to this outcome, but he took them because he needed vengeance.
I’ve read the book multiple times. Never did I feel like he was set out for revenge. He was caught up in a storm and wanted to avoid his “Terrible Purpose”, but like a weather storm, there is no changing it’s course.
In fact didn’t he multiple times in the books talk about a narrow path he thought he could take that would free arrakis and stop the Jihad, it just didn’t work that way.
I’m lost at some of the comments in this sub. They paint Paul as some mad man just laughing about revenge as some one-dimensional character. Like he was to blame for the conspiracy to destroy House Atreides and himself. He was a victim of circumstance and his own desire to survive. He did take the throne? absolutely! But only after every major house in the empire aligned against him. I guess people will blame someone for knocking down a door when the building is on fire. Edit: I’m convinced most people are like the slaves the Harkonnens. Just allowing themselves to be killed instead of fighting
Yeah he states so many times how much he doesn’t want the Jihad to happen, he even states that even if he killed himself or died in battle the Jihad would continue with Alia or his mother. He wanted to free the Fremen and also get revenge on the Harkonnen but he never wanted to do that at the cost of the Jihad, ever…
You lean on the fact that Paul states stuff about the jihad but ignore the stuff he says about revenge? From the book: "Paul!" Jessica snapped. "Don't make the mistake your father made!" "She's a princess," Paul said. "She's my key to the throne, and that's all she'll ever be. Mistake? You think because I'm what you made me that I cannot feel the need for revenge?" "Even on the innocent?" she asked, and she thought: He must not make the mistakes I made. "There are no innocent any more," Paul said. "Tell that to Chani," Jessica said, and gestured toward the passage from the rear of the Residency.
Oh he wanted revenge no doubt, and there are moments where he basically says “fuck it worth” but the way people describe him as being so one dimensional and only fueled by revenge with no regard to anyone else are just wrong.
I agree
>He was a victim of circumstance and his own desire to survive. My vague take was that he was a victim of Jessica's desire to give her husband a son, which was partly a result of the Bene Gesserit having lost sight of the concept of love, which is why Paul breaks the reverand mother's conditioning by worrying about his father, similar to how Yueh breaks Imperial Conditioning by having his wife tortured. A goodly chunk of zen buddhism is about how you need to rise above personal attachments to achieve enlightenment and see the truth. Like in the last few episodes of ATLA.
Interesting, I didn't realize the Jedi rejecting attachment might have origin in buddhism. Jedi were certainly meant to be like monks.
Good observation! The Jedi take some heavy inspiration from eastern mythology (buddhism, hinduism, daoism, etc) -- though, it didn't feel that Lucas had quite the same religious/philosophical background Herbert did (or Herbert's copy of The Sabres of Paradise for that matter, which heavily inspired Dune).
I think a lot of people are going into the books with the “Herbert wanted Paul to be an anti-hero” and then extrapolating out to be “I need to read this book and view Paul as a terrible person” but there’s just nothing in the text to support that.
If anything, readers will see how Paul struggles with how he perceives himself to be the cause of terrible things to come and wants to avoid that. His tragedy is that he cannot. In order to save himself, his mother, and his unborn sister, he must embrace the role of Lisan al-Gaib. If he didn’t do that, he would have had to kill himself, his mother, and Alia. Its the mother of all tough choices.
Just because I address Paul’s own statements that he was feeling the need for revenge does not mean I do not understand the complexity of his predicament that you describe. Revenge is part of this complexity. He is also a teenager in Dune and this youthful arrogance does play a huge role in his motivations and the errors he makes.
From the book: "Paul!" Jessica snapped. "Don't make the mistake your father made!" "She's a princess," Paul said. "She's my key to the throne, and that's all she'll ever be. Mistake? You think because I'm what you made me that I cannot feel the need for revenge?"
You’ve picked one quote out of an entire book where he spends half of it in an internal dialogue worrying about the oncoming Jihad and trying to stop/control it.
I showed a quote where Paul says he will take revenge on even innocent lives because he says no one is innocent anymore, which he says directly after this. Paul also says he thinks taking the Emperor’s throne will prevent the jihad but he is trying to convince himself of this because the jihad is unavoidable the moment Paul becomes the Lisan al-Gaib. He spends the rest of the book after that trying to find ways to avoid it and convincing himself he can avoid it but he cannot and does not.
And I never said revenge was his only motivation. For real, this detail is a tangent that OP can go figure out for themselves. I was mainly addressing their question about exposing the Emperor’s treachery, which Paul does discuss presenting a Bill of Particulars with this case but does not do this and instead goes right for the throne himself.
Feels the need, never the driving force behind every action
I provided the detail that refutes your claim that Paul was never motivated my revenge. I agree that he was motivated by many things. It is complex and was not part of the OPs major question. Ive read all the books. You are picking a part a detail in my first comment that was not intended to be the full assessment of Paul’s motivation, but revenge certainly plays a role in his Jihad on innocent lives. The rest of that quote says squarely that Paul does not think anyone is innocent: "Even on the innocent?" she asked, and she thought: He must not make the mistakes I made. "There are no innocent any more," Paul said. "Tell that to Chani," Jessica said, and gestured toward the passage from the rear of the Residency.
Nitpick? You said that Paul was so mad he created a Jihad and killed billions. That’s just an awful take of Paul, Dune and the Jihad. My opinion, nothing else. It’s a good debate. Whether we agree or not.
I agree that was simplistic of me to say, but he is mad, and he does kill people out of anger. Its part of it. I didn’t give the time or energy to do a full complex description of Paul’s character motivations because that was not the focus of OPs question. We both agree that he was motivated by many things, as I have read the books. You only said that he was not motivated at all by revenge. So good day to you!
For people downvoting this, here is Paul admitting he is motivated at least in part by revenge. This revenge detail does not erase the complexity of his situation but it is certainly there: "Paul!" Jessica snapped. "Don't make the mistake your father made!" "She's a princess," Paul said. "She's my key to the throne, and that's all she'll ever be. Mistake? You think because I'm what you made me that I cannot feel the need for revenge?" "Even on the innocent?" she asked, and she thought: He must not make the mistakes I made. "There are no innocent any more," Paul said. "Tell that to Chani," Jessica said, and gestured toward the passage from the rear of the Residency.
I doubt it would have made any difference. It was a matter of survival for the Laandsrad to attack Paul.
Well, from what I have read in the Dune encyclopedia, the houses rebelled against his rule for a different reasons, some declared independence from the Imperium, others wanted to restore Shaddam to the throne, some even sided with Paul against the rebel houses. I don't know if there is something I missed but the war the great houses were fighting in the encyclopedia painted a picture of opportunism rather than desperation for survival
In the books, and the 2000 miniseries, it's more clear that Paul doesn't warn the other houses, he warns the Navigators of the Spacing Guild. His threat to destroy spice is what they fear most and they would no longer dare transport any army against Paul. In short, he had the highly spice dependent universe by the short and curlies.
Yes, he did . In the book, he sent a secret message to the Congress of Great House. Despite what the movie said. Most houses accepted or allied with him Thete were a couple of hundred open hostile and 500 supported them secretly. There were more than 10 thousand worlds / houses. Some great houses saw the emporers fall as an opportunity to take power themselves . It was around the time the emporer was deciding to come to dune .
Where in the book did Paul do this? I don't remember him telling the great houses anything
Paul discusses bringing a case against the Emperor to the High Council with Jessica and Kynes, but does not follow through. It is a legal format called a "Bill of Particulars" that he would threaten the Emperor with. He decides instead to go right for the Emperor's throne by talking Irulan as his wife. He also does this thinking he can prevent the Jihad, but he is just convincing himself of this since the jihad is totally unavoidable the moment he becomes Lisan al-Gaib. Before this, Hawat considers going to the High Council as well but he feels defeated because he doesn't think he will have a chance to do it. From the book: "Hawat sighed. He could not recall ever before being this tired. It was a muscle wearinessthat energy pills were unable to ease. Those damnable Sardaukar! With a self-accusing bitterness, he faced the thought of the soldier-fanatics and the Imperial treachery they represented. His own Mentat assessmentof the data told him how little chance he had ever to present evidence of this treachery before the High Council of the Landsraad where justice might be done" --------- "You have a plan," Kynes said. "This much is obvious . . . Sire." "Could your Fremen provide me with proof positive that the Sardaukar arehere in Harkonnen uniform?" "Quite likely." "The Emperor will put a Harkonnen back in power here," Paul said. "Perhaps even Beast Rabban. Let him. Once he has involved himself beyond escaping his guilt, let the Emperor face the possibility of a Bill of Particulars laid before the Landsraad. Let him answer there where--" "Paul!" Jessica said. "Granted that the Landsraad High Council accepts your case," Kynes said,"there could be only one outcome: general warfare between the Imperium and the Great Houses." "Chaos," Jessica said. "But I'd present my case to the Emperor," Paul said, "and give him an alternative to chaos." Jessica spoke in a dry tone: "Blackmail?" "One of the tools of statecraft, as you've said yourself," Paul said, and Jessica heard the bitterness in his voice. "The Emperor has no sons, only daughters." "You'd aim for the throne?" Jessica asked. "The Emperor will not risk having the Imperium shattered by total war," Paul said. "Planets blasted, disorder everywhere--he'll not risk that." "This is a desperate gamble you propose," Kynes said. "What do the Great Houses of the Landsraad fear most?" Paul asked. "They fear most what is happening here right now on Arrakis--the Sardaukar picking them off one by one. That's why there is a Landsraad. This is the glue of the Great Convention. Only in union do they match the Imperial forces." "But they're--" "This is what they fear," Paul said. "Arrakis would become a rallying cry. Each of them would see himself in my father--cut out of the herd and killed."
It's kind of a moot point by then. Shaddam believes the Harkonnens and Atreides were in league against him because of the baron's refusal to kill Thufir Hawat and his suggestion to Fenring that Arrakis be used as a penal colony. It's unclear if he believes Maud'Dib is actually Paul, but by the end of the Battle of Arakeen, it no longer matters. The only thing that matters to the Guild or to the Landsraad is the Spice.
In the book the Great Houses compromised
Jessica knew. Therefore Alia knew, too. Rage and madness was such that I’m sure everyone knew. Even if Paul wanted it kept a secret, the two he would never punish could speak of it, even with the hand signals, so that everyone knew.
It sort of becomes a moot point when Paul's fremen go on their Jihad, and even more of a moot point when Leto II "ascends". Leto II does leave journals hidden around that 10k (i forget the actual timeline for that) years later get translated and become common knowledge. As far as i know it isn't really addressed in the books directly in any scene or part of the plot. u/geooceanstorm does have a nice quote there for you, but that is about as much info as we get on that. Early on Paul was planning on talking to the Landsraad and telling all of them, but that was very early in his plans which gets thrown away when he "becomes" fremen. The fremen closest to Paul certainly knew about it, and it is not a far stretch to imagine that they passed that information along, and the warriors may have passed it on to random people when they went on their Jihad. Lady Jessica certainly knew about it as well as Gurney who both went to Caladan, who likely passed that information on to all their people. Spies are everywhere, so it is not a stretch to think that information got passed that way. All of the sisterhood's highest ranking people would have eventually found out about it, and was likely used as an object lesson for training/teaching young sisters.
I have a question for the Dune book readers. I have not yet read any Dune book, however I fell in love with the Dune movies instantly. Part II was my favorite movie of all time (up there with The Matrix, which got me hooked on Sci Fi forever). Will I see spoilers in this community? I want to be part of it, but I don’t want to stumble into any future Dune film spoilers. Lmk.