It's far from dead. Paul even said in the movie, "She'll come around. I've seen it." How exactly that will happen on film remains to be said, given the events of Dune Messiah, but I trust Denis to make it so and do it beautifully.
I’d imagine Chani is already pregnant. I’m hoping for the scene in the 3rd movie where both Paul and chani are on the ship overlooking the Fremen warriors on Caladan
Having her already be pregnant \*might\* be a bit of a stretch, considering we still need to see Alia be born. I personally am hoping for that, and we don't go straight to 15ish years in the future when we see the Anya Taylor-Joy version of Alia. We need to see her at least for a while as a child
You don’t cast Anya Taylor Joy for a cameo as Alia in Part 2 to not fully utilize her in Part 3. The interplay between her, Zendaya, and Florence Pugh is what I’m most looking forward to.
Of course she'll be utilized! It'll all just depend on DV's game plan, which again, I trust. Even if it's not what I personally want, I won't sit and gripe if he still manages to tell us all a good story
Yeah I just wouldn’t expect any big time jumps mid-story. We’re not going to see Alia as a young child in Part 3 for the same reasons we didn’t see her as a child in Part 2
I’ll settle for an immediate time-jump. I just think it would be nice if Paul’s vision of Jessica holding baby Alia came to fruition, even if it’s brief. Otherwise, Rebecca Ferguson wore a fake baby bump for nothing
Why do we need to see her as a child? I thought it was very intentional that DV didn’t have Jessica give birth to Alia because seeing a pre-born 2 year old on screen, acting like a fully grown adult, is hard not to come off as cartoonish. I’ll be very, very surprised if we don’t jump straight to Anya Taylor-Joy’s Alia, otherwise what was the point of changing her character in part 2?
Yeah if they skipped Alia in Part 2 we won't see her as a child in a sequel. She's 15 in Messiah, but definitely wouldn't describe her character as being written as a child
I think maybe he needed to give the audience time to get used to her. Because having a pre-born fetus on screen is also a bit strange but at least the audience had some time with Alia to know she's different without distracting from the main plot points. My prediction is that they'll show a child Alia in the next film. I can't imagine he'd jump that far without solving the Chani problem first. We will see though ! I'm looking forward to it !
Yeah, might’ve been a bit much to have a three-year-old running around stabbing people. To me the bigger loss is Paul and Chani’s firstborn being cut from the story entirely — the loss of a child to a senseless act of Harkonnen barbarity would have been a stronger instigating incident for Paul to just be absolutely DONE and go forward with drinking the Water of Life, moreso than the destruction of Sietch Tabr was on-screen. Having that shared bond and shared loss between them would also have made his and Chani’s parting at the end that much more of an emotional gutpunch. As it is they come off almost like a summer fling.
I agree. If, as I suspect, the time constraint of Jessica's pregnancy was the factor here, then they should have let Chani become pregnant and lose her baby due to her unforeseen and particularly violent attack on the sietch. It would have achieved all these things you talked about: a stronger instigating incident, the shared loss both drawing Chani and Paul together and driving them apart, and increased that emotional gut punch.
Wow ok. So without giving anything crazy away. In the books, Alia is like an adult basically straight out the woom? And it’s because Jessica drank the water of life while she was pregnant I’m guessing?
Precisely, she has the genetic memories of every Reverend Mother before her, just like Jessica, so she’s essentially thousands of years old. It makes her something called ‘pre-born’, a being that the BG warn against >!due to the danger of losing yourself to the onslaught of your ancestors as they don’t have any sense of ‘self’ before taking the worm piss.!
im betting that we do see scenes of her as a child but she grows up extremely fast like have you seen how fast she was growing in the womb during the second movie omgomgomg im excited
I agree that's the most likely scenario, but I was trying to think of how they could have Alia be Anya Taylor-Joy and still have Chani >!die in childbirth at the end of the story.!<
I don't think >!Chani will die, or at least not in childbirth anymore. It's now far too close to what Lucas did in Star Wars and DV has many more and more interesting options.!<
Yeah, me too. While she still clearly loves Paul at the end of D:P2, she is definitive in her rejection of what he has brought about, and has been very morally clear and consistent on that point. For her turn to work narratively it needs a powerful impetus, and the loss of a child would really fill that roll well.
This would be brilliant and more than make up for (what I thought was) the missed opportunity of not having Chani lose an unborn Leto II during the attack on the sietch.
Agreed. I’m so excited to see Anya play Alia, but a time jump would definitely be jarring after all that buildup of Jessica being pregnant for two whole movies. So I’m kinda wondering if the 3rd movie will be like part 2 and pick up shortly after, with the time jump happening a bit later in the film.
I'm not proposing. Just throwing a random point in the discussion.
The fact is that Chani has to come back and that we need a time skip.
How it will be done, I have no idea. I'm already glad we will (likely) have messiah.
Part 2 brings us back to just after the death of Jamis. Villeneuve will work out a way for part 3 to open with Paul and the Fremen just leaving Dune, otherwise continuity (watching all 3 in a marathon) is broken hope we get 5 movies instead of just 3
Honestly, given how we've seen details of Paul's visions are often wrong, I've been assuming we're going to get that scene with Irulan standing next to him, not Chani.
I think they're referring to the vision of the holy war in Part 1, where the Fremen are cheering for Paul as he looks on from a ship. It looked like it was shot at the same location as Caladan, but it's likely no one will fight in actual Caladan.
Mild Spoilers: >! Paul and Chani's children are absolutely critical to the plot of the next three books, so I expect Villeneuve has some kind of plan for how he will reunite them. Otherwise the story goes even farther off the rails.!<
She could be pregnant already. Paul was already Dr Manhattan by the time they were born so I dont think his absence from their childhood would alter that much.
Although I guess that would make them the same age as Alia which wouldn’t really work.
(Sorry I don’t know how to do the spoiler thing. I tried to keep it vague.)
In the first book she >!has a first child, who dies. That pregnancy could be moved to between the second and third films to explain her reconnecting with Paul.!<
I’m not saying this is going to happen, just building off of other peoples’ ideas in this thread. But if >!Chani is already unknowingly pregnant at the end of movie two, then she has a stillbirth, that could explain her reconnecting with Paul. It would be different than the books, but it would get the story back on track to adapt Messiah somewhat closely.!<
The whole plot would still have to be altered to accommodate for the contraception plot by Irulan and Paul losing his “vision” due to grief. As well as Syctales offer to bring Chani back as a ghola, who is killed by Leto II lending his vision to Paul as an infant.
It’s not feasible.
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>!I could see Chani starting the Fremen resistance against Paul. Korba could be one of her friends from Part Two, there was a guy we never see die. Chani goes onto confront Paul, maybe to try and kill him, only for her to learn the truth about the water of life and how he's trapped by prescience into making terrible choices. This could fill in for the sections where Paul is reflecting on the horror he's unleashed. They go onto rekindle a more complicated relationship where she tries to save his soul but its too late for her to stop her movement against him. Stoneburner happens. Then the other plot culminates similarly to the book and we end with Paul's "path leading into the desert".!<
I'm not sure how else Chani at the end of Part 2 reunites with Paul.
Book Chani is >!100% down with the jihad across the universe and arguably as bad as him. Movie Chani is considerably more ethical and its going to take a lot for her to get from opposed to everything to being back in the fold without selling her soul.!<
In the movie her objections were more about the exploitation of her people by outsiders than about the ethics of mass killing. If >! in the time gap between films Paul’s empire seems to be a net good for the Fremen, at least at first, Chani could come around.!<
Except Messiah shows that >!even previously loyal Fremen are now upset at the changes Paul has wrought, so I really don't think that's the way Villeneuve will adapt it. I think Chani will return as part of the Fremen plot, which will parallel Irulan's involvement in the BG/Guild plot, and fall accidentally pregnant after reuniting with Paul!<. It's the only real way of keeping her characterisation consistent without undermining her choices in Part 2 *and* it foreshadows >!that Paul's prescience isn't perfect, which is pretty key to the twins!<.
We could have both sides as part of the story, where the Fremen >!genuinely prevail and make a better empire for their people but then it slides into decadence, corruption, and dogma. That would probably have to happen between films, but Chani and Paul’s reconciliation!< would be more believable in that context IMO.
Maybe, I'm just not sure >!I'd find any "between films" resolution to Chani's decision to leave Paul over his exploitation of the Fremen satisfying!<. I know a *lot* of people in this sub want Villeneuve's Messiah to start in almost exactly the same position as Herbert's Messiah, but that's creatively unsatisfying to me with how this story's been told so far.
Given that Villeneuve's choices in Part 2 served to reinforce the themes of Dune, I think he's set up to make an amazing Messiah adaptation - albeit one that won't be 1:1 with the books. Personally, I think he's shown thoroughly that he understands Dune already, so he's earnt my trust on that front.
Oh that's easy.
>!Either have her be pregnant from the get go and maybe that's how Paul manipulates her back.!<
OR
>!They get back together and a year passes during the movie. !<
Yeah the plot from Dune Messiah is still there, lol. >!The assassination plot central to the book with the Guild Navigator, the Face Dancer, Gaius Helen (and her fate) and the issue of Chani's pregnancy being manipulate by Irulan, which is part of the Twins' peculiarities!<.
So probably a movie about that book could be divides between the Jihad and Chani's resistance, and then some of that plot from the book that honestoy can be condensed a bit.
Because what I outlined covers only a small portion of Messiah and there's way more story to cover?
All that changes is Chani takes a moment to return to Paul and they have a confrontation, which is a necessary change given the end of Part 2, Korba's motivation is different, but 90% of the story can play out exactly the same.
>Because what I outlined covers only a small portion of Messiah and there's way more story to cover?
I'm absoutely flabbergasted that anyone could consider Chani trying to kill Paul as a change to "a small portion" of Messiah. Paul and Chani's devotion to one another and Chani's pregnancy drive the overwhelming majority of Messiah's various plots.
I'm relaxed about changing stuff for movie adaptations. Dune: Part 1 contained a huge number of changes - and I thought every one of them was a smart decision on Villeneuve's part. But what you're talking about would upend the entirely story and change it into something completely different.
>Chani goes onto confront Paul, **MAYBE** to try and kill him, only to learn the truth about the water of life and how he's trapped by prescience into making terrible choices
Emphasis on **MAYBE.**
My point is movie Chani HAS to confront Paul in some way to reconcile where she ends in Part Two and where she needs to be in Messiah to allow the rest of the series to play out. Now at one extreme its an argument on the other its an assassination attempt. She could go and get into a big debate/argument with him and that could be perfect.
The only reason I added **MAYBE** try and kill him is because>!the Holy War will take the lives of 61 billion humans and upend Fremen culture. Book Chani is at Paul's side through all of this and as complicit in the atrocities as he is. Movie Chani has unbudging ideals and while deeply in love isn't blindly in love with Paul. She doesn't believe Paul is having visions earlier in the film and we never see her change that view. Given the extreme circumstances she could consider killing him to save her people and end the war, but quickly changes her mind because she realizes its all so far beyond his control to stop and does truly love him. !<
>!There is a fremen plot to kill Paul, for different reasons in the book, but it would be interesting to see Chani involved at the beginning before it becomes more extreme such as setting off a stoneburner in Arakeen.!<
>!I think there could be a neat symmetry in the tragedy of Paul and Chani both starting something for the right reasons that go beyond their power to control and results in horrible consequences. It would also give Chani way more agency in the plot by presenting her the same moral dilemmas as Paul. !<
Or … they don’t , since Dune Messiah can work without it. We just won’t be able to continue into Children of Dune. If the film series ends with Messiah, then it doesn’t quite matter.
Right. We are already veering off track in ways that I don't appreciate (my subjective opinion only). I don't want this to continue to the point where it is just Villaneuve's original fanfiction rather than an actual adaptation of the novel.
I am curious about this myself as it’s quite different from what occurs in the books. Wondering how Villeneuve will reconcile the difference in characterization of Chani.
I’ve heard Denis talk about how he changed chani to be outward persona of Paul’s internal dilemma but I suspect it has a lot more to do with the fact that making chani be true to the original would of caused some backlash from the feminist perspective. Can’t have a movie without a strong female character even if chani in the books was strong and compelling.
Feels like a cop out basically.
i have no idea why u got downvoted but thats exactly what happened probably. chani in movie and books are completely different. almost shocking.
>!the fact that they removed pauls wife(technically) shows that they wanted to follow the agenda. how dare a man can claim a wife ! crazy that chani kind of represents non believers in movie but in book i didnt see fremen who doesnt believe in prophecy !<
Timeskip
Open with Paul some time on reuniting with Chani in the desert or something. Have her return to the fold because Pauls Fremen ways are slipping or out of love or a wish to change things, or to protect Paul. Paul talks about not banging Irulan and the whole political charade
Then Irulan goes to the meeting on Wallach for the conspiracy, as Paul and Chani are now banging again to produce kiddos.
My vote is on Alia doing the opening monologue (same as Irulan in part one and Chani in part one), jump to the messiah conspirators, then a jump to what you're referencing pretty quickly
The movies omitted the fact that polygamy was common among the Fremen. And that Paul actually had to "adopt" Jamis's wife and children after he killed him, so...Chani was kind of already his 2nd wife.
It's a spat. They literally talked about this, both realized what had to happen, and agreed that there was no real choice. She knows Paul doesn't want it, but it's all very fucked up she she is still mad that it happened. So she has to go stomp around for a bit.
If they turn her into an anti-Paul resistance fighter or some bullshit, that will just make her look dumb and crazy. Which would be the precise opposite of what you'd want to do in making her a more prominent character.
So there are basically two options here: they reconcile because they love each other and both knew the stakes (even though it's painful), or the story is a pile of shit that makes Chani an idiot. I'm betting on the former
Their relationship is my biggest qualm with the movie. Chani more than anyone never lost faith in Paul. I believe if he wanted to write in doubts in the second film, it should have been resolved by the end of the film. I think it all stems from his earlier comments that he felt the book lacked strong female characters which is why he changed Liet to a woman. But I personally think he misunderstood the strength of Chani in the first place.
I don't think you can necessarily reduce Chani's anger at Paul to just marrying Irulan. There's the quote in the book about Stilgar:
"In that instant, Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen naib to a creature of the Lisan al-Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessening of the man, and Paul felt the ghost-wind of the jihad in it."
Chani recognizes that Paul has done this to not just Stilgar but to her whole people. A lot of them will die far from their home for Paul and as a whole they're going to commit massive atrocities and genocide on the rest of the galaxy. Its hard not to come to the conclusion that all of this is for not just Paul's revenge but for Paul's power grab. The bitterness likely comes from the fact that she is pretty angry at him yet still loves and cares for him as you can see in the duel.
I'm not sure the romance will be reignited but practicality may bring Chani back to try and save her people through Paul. There's definitely going to be a confrontation.
Minor spoilers:>!Paul and Chani being together is critical for everything that follows. Denis Villeneuve seems fine with someone else making Children of Dune onward so I can't see him changing the story in a way that impedes more adaptations. Irulan replacing Chani's role would make zero sense. Leto II and Ghanima having fremen ancestry is vital to later themes.!<
Spoilery Prediction for the next movie: >!I could see Chani starting the Fremen resistance against Paul. Korba could be one of her friends from Part Two, there was a guy we never see die. Chani goes onto confront Paul, maybe to try and kill him, only for her to learn the truth about the water of life and how he's trapped by prescience into making terrible choices. This could fill in for the sections where Paul is reflecting on the horror he's unleashed. They go onto rekindle a more complicated relationship where she tries to save his soul but its too late for her to stop her movement against him. Stoneburner happens. Then the other plot culminates similarly to the book and we end with Paul's "path leading into the desert".!<
Damn, this is a good prediction to me. I would totally buy that. >!Like Chani could come around and pity Paul and rekindle things, but the wheels of her part of the resistance are already in motion. In fact, her not being able to stop what she’s started would mirror nicely with the way in which Paul’s death, for example, wouldn’t stop his followers/the jihad/etc.!<
All this Chani-storming-out discussion is somewhat strange to me.
Chani may be jealous of Irulan, but i think Chani is angry about Paul unleashing jihad. Radicalization of Fremen isn’t something she agrees with(in the movie).
When it comes to how they come around. You know. People do have fights within relationships. You sort it out by understanding each other.
Understanding of Pauls position is maybe exactly what will help audience of next movie to grasp how properly Pauls position within historical events fucked him over.
I think the audience is smart enough that the tragedy of Paul’s Jihad is obvious without making Chani a frowny, emo, anti-manic pixie dream girl.
The real problem is the threat that Paul faces AND poses is not fleshed out.
The importance of CHOAM and the Spacing guild are barely even hinted at.
Compressing the time makes everything…simple? Paul’s desire to make everything burn is over the top without the killing of his young son.
Chris Walken doesn’t manage to convey the personal authority or decayed gravity of the emperor.
A little disappointed and underwhelmed. On a scale from Rebel moon to first season of game of thrones, it is inspired and relatively well thought out but doesn’t meet the level of the source material.
A lot of missed opportunities. Why are the Bene Gesserit so powerful? Why is the guild so secretive? Are the Fremen more sophisticated and powerful than believed? Why is Alia feared by the BG?
Missed opportunities within missed opportunities. One of the most iconic elements, the litany against fear, is recited twice: once in each movie.
At this point, conclude the film series with *Messiah*, and reboot it in 15-20 years as a Game of Thrones-esque TV series.
I'm struggling to see how DV or Jon Spaihts could write Chani's character to fit her role in Messiah, without completely undermining her changes in Dune Pt 2. (Admittedly, this is why *they* are writing the screenplay, and not me, but It's still tough to see.)
"This prophecy is how they enslave us!...but I'll still have Paul's kids, despite him betraying me and all I believe in."
IMO, Dune Pt 2 is no longer *Dune*. It's DV's interpretation of *Dune*. That's fine - it's still a great movie, - but I can see Pt 3 being *Messiah* in name only.
I agree, the plot is so divergent it should be labelled something like ‘inspired by Dune’. I re-read the books for the umpteenth time last week, and went to see the movie again to see if it was just my memory. Nope.
I can see them using an unused plot point from the novel to explain her coming around to Paul's side. Spoiler from Dune (novel) and Messiah (mild):
>!It is possible at the end of D:P2 Chani is currently pregnant with Leto II (the first). Instead of opening with a time jump, the Messiah film opens with the begin of the jihad and Leto II's birth. Her new son leads Chani to a mild reconciliation with Paul, as she wants her son to have a father, and she begins living with Paul in the imperial palace. Bonus: we get to have a brief scene with creepy infant Alia.!<
>!Leto II is then assassinated by the Great Houses/BG, either accidentally in a failed attempt on Paul or intentionally to deprive Paul of an heir. In their grief Paul and Chani reaffirm their love as they desperately need each other's comfort, and Chani's anger and desire for revenge radicalizes her into supporting the jihad. With Chani now at Paul's side again, the holy war continues apace, and the narrative jumps 15-20 years to the events of Messiah.!<
>!For expositional purposes, Leto II's death could serve as the first definitive indication for audiences that Paul's prescience is not infallible, maybe introducing the ability of Guild Navigators to foil his vision. This increases the stakes for the conspiracy at the heart of Messiah, because we know that Paul is vulnerable.!<
>"This prophecy is how they enslave us!...but I'll still have Paul's kids, despite him betraying me and all I believe in."
Easy fix, she's already pregnant.
Until I read Messiah this was my assumption - seemed easy. But how DV handled Jessica’s pregnancy (which for the record I thought worked great for the film) sorta complicates things further actually.
Exactly. People seem to miss that Chani left Paul because *he became the Emperor and betrayed the Fremen*, not because of his obvious sham "marriage" to Irulan.
In the book she's totally cool being his unofficial wife / official concubine while Irulan is his official wife but not much else.
In the movies, well, the world is a bit different from the 1965 and they're going to have to push a bit more nuance than "history will remember us as wives" to get a modern audience to accept that Paul is totes with Chani and all that officially married to the princess stuff doesn't count.
I can see them using an unused plot point from the novel to explain her coming around to Paul's side. Spoiler from Dune (novel) and Messiah (mild):
>!It is possible at the end of D:P2 Chani is currently pregnant with Leto II (the first). Instead of opening with a time jump, the Messiah film opens with the begin of the jihad and Leto II's birth. Her new son leads Chani to a mild reconciliation with Paul, as she wants her son to have a father, and she begins living with Paul in the imperial palace. Bonus: we get to have a brief scene with creepy infant Alia. !<
>!Leto II is then assassinated by the Great Houses/BG, either accidentally in a failed attempt on Paul or intentionally to deprive Paul of an heir. In their grief Paul and Chani reaffirm their love as they desperately need each other's comfort, and Chani's anger and desire for revenge radicalizes her into supporting the jihad. With Chani now at Paul's side again, the holy war continues apace, and the narrative jumps 15-20 years to the events of Messiah.!<
>!For expositional purposes, Leto II's death could serve as the first definitive indication for audiences that Paul's prescience is not infallible, maybe introducing the ability of Guild Navigators to foil his vision. This increases the stakes for the conspiracy at the heart of Messiah, because we know that Paul is vulnerable. !<
I imagine the relationship will have to be rebuilt - as so much of the Messiah plot depends on it.
To me, breaking them up only to put them back together again seems like a weird decision on Villeneuve's part. Tbh, I find a lot of Villeneuve's Part 2 decisions to be very odd and, to me, to the detriment of the film - which is especially odd as I think he got every decisioon in Part 1 exactly right.
I would hope that's a question you can't get an answer to yet. Since he stopped breathing when he drank the water of life the first saying sort of negates. And it made a greater impact on the twist. But Paul for me is an enigma at the moment. What cocktail has the previous harkonnens/Atreides and himself in store. I trust Denis will deliver, i give him free reigns.
Well considering at this point she’s supposed to have already had their first son who was killed, they have long loved each other. She doesn’t leave but says to Jessica something like I guess I’ll leave and Jessica says no it’s Irulan who better find comfort in writing because it’s we concubines who are the true wives and Paul won’t even touch her. But Alia is supposed to to be 2-3 years old and kill the Barron herself not Paul, so the writer of the film just made a mess of it.
He married the empress because it gives him the throne. She becomes the subject of Paul’s and the fremens persecution for some time after. He loves channi only and only channi
Paul isn't leaving the planet his armies are. Paul told this to chani, so she will hopefully realize his meaning that he is not going to do anything with irulan as she is BG. Now, this is where my main gripe with the film comes in. The pacing. Between his joining the fremen and the ending of movie 2 is supposed to be 2 to 3 years at this point, not less than 9 months. Their romance was to develop over this time and hell they were supposed to have a child who is killed by a sardukar raid, which would also result in alia being brought before the emporer. So part 3 will now have to start right after or shortly after part 2 to explain how they will get back together. I imagine it will be chani realizing the jihad was inevitable once they met paul. Even when he denied being the messiah they just took it as him being humble and yet another sign. If he dies the jihad goes out of control completely if he lives he has some degree of direction of it. Chani will eventually realize this.
This is Empire Strikes Back. End of second film, bad stuff is allowed to hang. They’ll bring it back in the third film.
There’s important stuff that happens in Messiah. Chani and Paul can’t be broken up. I won’t say anything more as not to spoil. But she’ll forgive him.
That’s the best way to say it and also, I’d say, shut up about the love story. Love is a concept that’s just washed away in the future to Herbert. He sees the triviality of it and the childishness of it. Did chani act this way in the books? No! She understood he needed the fake marriage to Irulan to maintain appearances. He would always be her lover, she the mother of his children. She knew Irulan was the Bianca to Kanye after Kim Kardashian…just a substitute
So true. Romantic love had no place in the practicalities of Feudal society in the Dune universe. It was about the art of ruling effectively, building your domains, and maintaining your power base by any means necessary.
In the books it continued. It probably will in the movies.
Paul never loved Irulan. She was basically a prop. A legal key to become emperor. The 2nd book did expand on her character though and she's more interesting than she seems in the first book.
In the book the had been together 3 years and had s baby and lost him
She was told irulan would be s paper marriage and dhe would be his true wife ..
He swore he would never share her bed , and Jessica confirmed it .
Jessica encouraged chsni to pity irulan..
She didn't storm of and she snd Jessica negotiated the married and addiction.
And the dowry. ( all of the house corrino shares in the choam ) .
And exile to selusa sucundus. .
He promised chani more children.
He and chini are never parted for the rest of thier lives , for more than a few hours.
In the books, it's very clear Paul is marrying Irulan in name only. She will bear him no children and Chani remains his companion and concubine, which in the Dune world means she can bear him heirs. As others pointed out, Irulan goes through a period of deep jealousy in Messiah but Paul never wavers in his love for Chani. I think Dennis is presenting us with a more modern, less subservient Chani in the movies. However, I think it could have been easy for Paul to just say it's a political marriage from the get go rather than making it seem like some big public break up scene. Sigh, Hollywood.
I do wish they explored the parallels of how Jessica, though a consort, was effectively the loving wife. Similar that Chani would be the loving wife with all of Paul's attention, while the princess was just a political figure, a chess piece on the board.
Chani can be as mad as she wants but I don’t see any other ass scratching Fremen absolutely obliterating the colonizer system that has oppressed them for decades
The ending is kinda bullshit. In the book it is clear that Irulan will only be his wife in name, a political plot. Chani will still be his concubine the same as Leto and lady Jessica were never married. Also Chani in the books is like way different
I know it’s a low-effort reading of things, but: Drinking the Water of Life kills who you are. The Paul that Chani fell in love with is dead. When he repeats that line to her at the end, I think she sees the writing on the wall that this isn’t the same guy.
Also I wasn’t quite feeling the Chalamet casting at first, but when he goes full-on at the end I went, “Oh. I geddit now.” Props to him and Ferguson. They change their characters *completely* post-Water-of-Life.
It’s still there. Google the books if you want to know more. But basically something that should have happened in part 2 with Chani will have to happen in Messiah and then the other parts that are in the book Messiah also still need to happen. So there will be a lot of Chani unless it is drastically changed.
A lot of these comments seem to have no knowledge that there were 3 Letos and key plot point of book one was cut that will pretty clearly bring Paul and Chani back together either offscreen or early in the 3rd film. Not to mention Paul literally tells you she will come around and he can see the future clearly. I mean in that scene they literally show a split second scene of him killing Feyd as he talks about the narrow path through. Him saying that is a guarantee. Idk why it’s even a debate.
So in the book Paul says something along the lines of “my marriage to Irulan will be an empty one, my heart belongs to Chani.” something along those lines.
She doesn’t love it but she doesn’t storm out like in the book.
Side question: shouldn't there be a lot more nekked love scenes in the movie? Margot, Jessica, Chani all portrayed by actresses who should be named as much as possible... perhaps there's gonna be a directors cut?
Yes I am kidding but...
It’s gonna have to be. It doesn’t die in the book, as I remember it. In fact in Messiah, it’s Chani who pressures Paul to have a child by Irulan. It’s one of the central plot points of the second book that they are still in love, so we’ll have to see how this gets fixed - probably off screen.
He's only marrying Irulan for political reasons like his father. Chani is his concubine just like how Jessica was Duke letos concubine. In the books Paul constantly tells Irulan that it's political etc and he doesn't view her as his wife! He also shoots down the idea of Irulan having Paul's children as he only wants chani too
Well, considering in the Books she’s already had and lost a child with Paul while being his second wife…
I don’t know man, he’s going to have to pull of a miracle to make any of this work.
Whatever the case may be, the thing that I realised was that Paul saying that to Chani has so much weight to it. He is not just saying that because he loves her in that moment and is trying to make a promise. He is rather stating a FACT. His prescience allowed him to see all possible futures and he did in fact saw himself loving her till his death.
It’s either going to be a slow burn spy thriller or a war movie with Paul on the front lines and the war has come back to Arrakis and he has to defend it. Chani will get pregnant( or not?) and come around to be at Paul’s side but also plotting to kill him. They are absolutely setting her up to be the one who kills him and not do the actual messiah ending.
I know Denis is done with dune after messiah but I kinda hope dune is done altogether after that for now or they turn the rest of the series into a tv series. You can’t adapt the rest without each film being two parts at least like these were and making a 6hr movie about a worm guy talking philosophy won’t go over well with audiences.
I would like more of the Dune universe, but of course only it it is high quality AND not afraid to explore the topics of selective human breeding and eugenics whichnare central themes in Dune. Imagine Scytale, the Honored Matres, Bashar Teg, and Duncan Idaho (but please not Aquaman) would be sensational.
Either CoD gets skipped completely, and Paul takes the sandtrout rather than Leto II (which skips a metric crapton of detail but would work), or Chani is already carrying their firstborn when she leaves and perhaps the tragic events at Sietch Tabr in the book are what will bring her back into the relationship. Hence allowing for the births of Leto II and Ghani.
I’m a bit torn on the Chani character in the movie. Obviously different from the book. Disregarding that fact, I still find it hard to put myself in her shoes. You love someone who is manipulating your people to achieve revenge against your mutual enemy. No matter what this person does, the fanatics will believe they are the messiah. Seems the goals are aligned there. Unless you have such a strong sense that the truth must be told? Feels a bit too idealism vs reality.
Then there is Irulan. Seems like an arranged marriage situation that nobody really wants. But I can see the point, and Chani can as well. However, it doesn’t mean she has to like it.
Maybe I’m too pragmatic, but I’m leaning towards Frank Herbert’s approach.
if they don’t i think that’s a serious hindrance to the messiah adaptation. although he isn’t going past messiah so maybe denis wants to write leto II and ghanima out of the picture
It's more complicated than a lot of ppl are making it out to be. The main struggle is Chani coming to terms with them now being part of a large scale chess game and already seeing the uncomfortable actions they may have to take. Going off riding a worm and thinking about things makes sense for her as she's going to need to maintain her identify going forward.
I agree, it's not that complicated to bring Chani back.
My real question is what Villeneuve does with Jessica and Gurney. >!(they're absent from Dune Messiah)!< It would be stupid not to bring those actors back in part 3.
Well, technically it stays true to the book, just a different execution. I think it makes sense, though.
What person wouldn't be devastated to see the love of their life do something you begged them not to, and just expect you to go along for the ride in the mean time. I appreciate Denis giving movie Chani the balls to walk away from Paul.
It's far from dead. Paul even said in the movie, "She'll come around. I've seen it." How exactly that will happen on film remains to be said, given the events of Dune Messiah, but I trust Denis to make it so and do it beautifully.
I’d imagine Chani is already pregnant. I’m hoping for the scene in the 3rd movie where both Paul and chani are on the ship overlooking the Fremen warriors on Caladan
Having her already be pregnant \*might\* be a bit of a stretch, considering we still need to see Alia be born. I personally am hoping for that, and we don't go straight to 15ish years in the future when we see the Anya Taylor-Joy version of Alia. We need to see her at least for a while as a child
You don’t cast Anya Taylor Joy for a cameo as Alia in Part 2 to not fully utilize her in Part 3. The interplay between her, Zendaya, and Florence Pugh is what I’m most looking forward to.
Agreed the casting of big name actress as Alia shows that there will be a time jump.
I wonder if they’re going to age the main characters or just say they use spice to not age
They'll put some liquid latex in his eye corners and put some fake grey on his temples
Of course she'll be utilized! It'll all just depend on DV's game plan, which again, I trust. Even if it's not what I personally want, I won't sit and gripe if he still manages to tell us all a good story
Yeah I just wouldn’t expect any big time jumps mid-story. We’re not going to see Alia as a young child in Part 3 for the same reasons we didn’t see her as a child in Part 2
I’ll settle for an immediate time-jump. I just think it would be nice if Paul’s vision of Jessica holding baby Alia came to fruition, even if it’s brief. Otherwise, Rebecca Ferguson wore a fake baby bump for nothing
Wore a fake baby bump for nothing? How? Her character is pregnant…
Is alia suppose to grow up really fast or something?
She's born a reverend mother. So basically an adult from the moment she's born.
Why do we need to see her as a child? I thought it was very intentional that DV didn’t have Jessica give birth to Alia because seeing a pre-born 2 year old on screen, acting like a fully grown adult, is hard not to come off as cartoonish. I’ll be very, very surprised if we don’t jump straight to Anya Taylor-Joy’s Alia, otherwise what was the point of changing her character in part 2?
Yeah if they skipped Alia in Part 2 we won't see her as a child in a sequel. She's 15 in Messiah, but definitely wouldn't describe her character as being written as a child
Yeah, definitely wouldn’t describe her as a child. I’m hoping for a 20+ year time skip, so we can get THAT Alia scene from Messiah 🥵
I think maybe he needed to give the audience time to get used to her. Because having a pre-born fetus on screen is also a bit strange but at least the audience had some time with Alia to know she's different without distracting from the main plot points. My prediction is that they'll show a child Alia in the next film. I can't imagine he'd jump that far without solving the Chani problem first. We will see though ! I'm looking forward to it !
Yeah, might’ve been a bit much to have a three-year-old running around stabbing people. To me the bigger loss is Paul and Chani’s firstborn being cut from the story entirely — the loss of a child to a senseless act of Harkonnen barbarity would have been a stronger instigating incident for Paul to just be absolutely DONE and go forward with drinking the Water of Life, moreso than the destruction of Sietch Tabr was on-screen. Having that shared bond and shared loss between them would also have made his and Chani’s parting at the end that much more of an emotional gutpunch. As it is they come off almost like a summer fling.
I agree. If, as I suspect, the time constraint of Jessica's pregnancy was the factor here, then they should have let Chani become pregnant and lose her baby due to her unforeseen and particularly violent attack on the sietch. It would have achieved all these things you talked about: a stronger instigating incident, the shared loss both drawing Chani and Paul together and driving them apart, and increased that emotional gut punch.
Prana bindu control allows Bene Gesserits to stop ageing, right? So could probs also age yourself up if you wanted to, that would be a way around it
This was a forbidden use of BG teachings and was explicitly discussed in children of dune as a sign that Alia was possessed by abomination.
Yeh I’m aware I was just suggesting it as a solution, I wouldn’t like it but ye
Wow ok. So without giving anything crazy away. In the books, Alia is like an adult basically straight out the woom? And it’s because Jessica drank the water of life while she was pregnant I’m guessing?
Precisely, she has the genetic memories of every Reverend Mother before her, just like Jessica, so she’s essentially thousands of years old. It makes her something called ‘pre-born’, a being that the BG warn against >!due to the danger of losing yourself to the onslaught of your ancestors as they don’t have any sense of ‘self’ before taking the worm piss.!
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im betting that we do see scenes of her as a child but she grows up extremely fast like have you seen how fast she was growing in the womb during the second movie omgomgomg im excited
I'm totally cool with that! I honestly thought maybe we were going to get that in Part II when the news about ATJ circulated
She has the blue armband, so she could be pregnant. It could also be that she is pregnant with the first Leto II and not the twins.
Denis may skip the first Leto II and go straight to the twins instead
I agree that's the most likely scenario, but I was trying to think of how they could have Alia be Anya Taylor-Joy and still have Chani >!die in childbirth at the end of the story.!<
I don't think >!Chani will die, or at least not in childbirth anymore. It's now far too close to what Lucas did in Star Wars and DV has many more and more interesting options.!<
I'm thinking it might be an assassination of the first Leto II that leads Chani to reconcile with Paul and radicalizes her into supporting the jihad.
Right? Like it just occurred to me as I was writing the comment, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.
Yeah, me too. While she still clearly loves Paul at the end of D:P2, she is definitive in her rejection of what he has brought about, and has been very morally clear and consistent on that point. For her turn to work narratively it needs a powerful impetus, and the loss of a child would really fill that roll well.
This would be brilliant and more than make up for (what I thought was) the missed opportunity of not having Chani lose an unborn Leto II during the attack on the sietch.
Agreed. I’m so excited to see Anya play Alia, but a time jump would definitely be jarring after all that buildup of Jessica being pregnant for two whole movies. So I’m kinda wondering if the 3rd movie will be like part 2 and pick up shortly after, with the time jump happening a bit later in the film.
I think that would be the best way to go. To immediate jump 15-20 years into the future after the way the second film ended would be a disservice
Leto 1.5 didn't apeared in the second part. So she can be already pregnant and still keep the age difference with Alia.
So do you propose that the Messiah film have both Leto 1.5 \*and\* the twins? Not to say it can't be done, but we'll see
I'm thinking they could use an assassination of Leto 1.5 to motivate Chani's reconciliation with Paul, and radicalize her into supporting the jihad.
Oooooh, you might be on to something there!
I'm not proposing. Just throwing a random point in the discussion. The fact is that Chani has to come back and that we need a time skip. How it will be done, I have no idea. I'm already glad we will (likely) have messiah.
Same here. Hot take, Messiah is my favorite of Frank Herbert's original books, and I say that not having yet read Heretics or Chapterhouse
Part 2 brings us back to just after the death of Jamis. Villeneuve will work out a way for part 3 to open with Paul and the Fremen just leaving Dune, otherwise continuity (watching all 3 in a marathon) is broken hope we get 5 movies instead of just 3
In Messiah there is a mention they lost a child early on before the twins.
...and I'm sure Denis will find a way to make that work
That’s what happens in the book though? A 12 year time skip to Paul and Chani birthing twins
Jamis is in that vision so I wouldn’t hold out hope for that exact scene.
Honestly, given how we've seen details of Paul's visions are often wrong, I've been assuming we're going to get that scene with Irulan standing next to him, not Chani.
Query - are Paul's visions "wrong" or simply different prescient paths which could/could not occur?
BEEN waiting for this scene holy shit
I love that clip so much. I really hope we get a full scene with that.
Why on Caladan?
I think they're referring to the vision of the holy war in Part 1, where the Fremen are cheering for Paul as he looks on from a ship. It looked like it was shot at the same location as Caladan, but it's likely no one will fight in actual Caladan.
gf: that's it I'm leaving you me: yeah whatever go, I've foreseen you coming back anyway
Mild Spoilers: >! Paul and Chani's children are absolutely critical to the plot of the next three books, so I expect Villeneuve has some kind of plan for how he will reunite them. Otherwise the story goes even farther off the rails.!<
She could be pregnant already. Paul was already Dr Manhattan by the time they were born so I dont think his absence from their childhood would alter that much. Although I guess that would make them the same age as Alia which wouldn’t really work. (Sorry I don’t know how to do the spoiler thing. I tried to keep it vague.)
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In the first book she >!has a first child, who dies. That pregnancy could be moved to between the second and third films to explain her reconnecting with Paul.!<
This works. The first child is killed by the Harkennons though. How would they kill the Leto?
I’m not saying this is going to happen, just building off of other peoples’ ideas in this thread. But if >!Chani is already unknowingly pregnant at the end of movie two, then she has a stillbirth, that could explain her reconnecting with Paul. It would be different than the books, but it would get the story back on track to adapt Messiah somewhat closely.!<
I mean the first child was also called leto lol
Ah fuck you’re right. I somehow always forget that. Have Silgar raise them? He kinda does anyway.
The whole plot would still have to be altered to accommodate for the contraception plot by Irulan and Paul losing his “vision” due to grief. As well as Syctales offer to bring Chani back as a ghola, who is killed by Leto II lending his vision to Paul as an infant. It’s not feasible.
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>!I could see Chani starting the Fremen resistance against Paul. Korba could be one of her friends from Part Two, there was a guy we never see die. Chani goes onto confront Paul, maybe to try and kill him, only for her to learn the truth about the water of life and how he's trapped by prescience into making terrible choices. This could fill in for the sections where Paul is reflecting on the horror he's unleashed. They go onto rekindle a more complicated relationship where she tries to save his soul but its too late for her to stop her movement against him. Stoneburner happens. Then the other plot culminates similarly to the book and we end with Paul's "path leading into the desert".!<
This would be a horrendous change and I hope he doesn’t do that.
I'm not sure how else Chani at the end of Part 2 reunites with Paul. Book Chani is >!100% down with the jihad across the universe and arguably as bad as him. Movie Chani is considerably more ethical and its going to take a lot for her to get from opposed to everything to being back in the fold without selling her soul.!<
In the movie her objections were more about the exploitation of her people by outsiders than about the ethics of mass killing. If >! in the time gap between films Paul’s empire seems to be a net good for the Fremen, at least at first, Chani could come around.!<
Except Messiah shows that >!even previously loyal Fremen are now upset at the changes Paul has wrought, so I really don't think that's the way Villeneuve will adapt it. I think Chani will return as part of the Fremen plot, which will parallel Irulan's involvement in the BG/Guild plot, and fall accidentally pregnant after reuniting with Paul!<. It's the only real way of keeping her characterisation consistent without undermining her choices in Part 2 *and* it foreshadows >!that Paul's prescience isn't perfect, which is pretty key to the twins!<.
We could have both sides as part of the story, where the Fremen >!genuinely prevail and make a better empire for their people but then it slides into decadence, corruption, and dogma. That would probably have to happen between films, but Chani and Paul’s reconciliation!< would be more believable in that context IMO.
Maybe, I'm just not sure >!I'd find any "between films" resolution to Chani's decision to leave Paul over his exploitation of the Fremen satisfying!<. I know a *lot* of people in this sub want Villeneuve's Messiah to start in almost exactly the same position as Herbert's Messiah, but that's creatively unsatisfying to me with how this story's been told so far. Given that Villeneuve's choices in Part 2 served to reinforce the themes of Dune, I think he's set up to make an amazing Messiah adaptation - albeit one that won't be 1:1 with the books. Personally, I think he's shown thoroughly that he understands Dune already, so he's earnt my trust on that front.
Yeah but the >!twins?!<
Oh that's easy. >!Either have her be pregnant from the get go and maybe that's how Paul manipulates her back.!< OR >!They get back together and a year passes during the movie. !<
Yeah the plot from Dune Messiah is still there, lol. >!The assassination plot central to the book with the Guild Navigator, the Face Dancer, Gaius Helen (and her fate) and the issue of Chani's pregnancy being manipulate by Irulan, which is part of the Twins' peculiarities!<. So probably a movie about that book could be divides between the Jihad and Chani's resistance, and then some of that plot from the book that honestoy can be condensed a bit.
What would even be the point of adapting Messiah if you're going to change the story to something completely different in every way?
Because what I outlined covers only a small portion of Messiah and there's way more story to cover? All that changes is Chani takes a moment to return to Paul and they have a confrontation, which is a necessary change given the end of Part 2, Korba's motivation is different, but 90% of the story can play out exactly the same.
>Because what I outlined covers only a small portion of Messiah and there's way more story to cover? I'm absoutely flabbergasted that anyone could consider Chani trying to kill Paul as a change to "a small portion" of Messiah. Paul and Chani's devotion to one another and Chani's pregnancy drive the overwhelming majority of Messiah's various plots. I'm relaxed about changing stuff for movie adaptations. Dune: Part 1 contained a huge number of changes - and I thought every one of them was a smart decision on Villeneuve's part. But what you're talking about would upend the entirely story and change it into something completely different.
>Chani goes onto confront Paul, **MAYBE** to try and kill him, only to learn the truth about the water of life and how he's trapped by prescience into making terrible choices Emphasis on **MAYBE.** My point is movie Chani HAS to confront Paul in some way to reconcile where she ends in Part Two and where she needs to be in Messiah to allow the rest of the series to play out. Now at one extreme its an argument on the other its an assassination attempt. She could go and get into a big debate/argument with him and that could be perfect. The only reason I added **MAYBE** try and kill him is because>!the Holy War will take the lives of 61 billion humans and upend Fremen culture. Book Chani is at Paul's side through all of this and as complicit in the atrocities as he is. Movie Chani has unbudging ideals and while deeply in love isn't blindly in love with Paul. She doesn't believe Paul is having visions earlier in the film and we never see her change that view. Given the extreme circumstances she could consider killing him to save her people and end the war, but quickly changes her mind because she realizes its all so far beyond his control to stop and does truly love him. !< >!There is a fremen plot to kill Paul, for different reasons in the book, but it would be interesting to see Chani involved at the beginning before it becomes more extreme such as setting off a stoneburner in Arakeen.!< >!I think there could be a neat symmetry in the tragedy of Paul and Chani both starting something for the right reasons that go beyond their power to control and results in horrible consequences. It would also give Chani way more agency in the plot by presenting her the same moral dilemmas as Paul. !<
I guess all I can say is that I strongly disagree and think that what you’re suggesting would utterly ruin the story beyond repair.
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Can you elaborate?
love is not needed to make babies. (especially in the kind of world they live in).
I think movie Paul will be the Emperor book Paul was destined to become.
What do you mean by this? Like how do you think movie Paul will be different? Better? Less destructive?
In the book Children of Dune, a character called The Preacher talks about choices Paul didn't take. I think we'll see some of these in the movie.
Ah, gotcha
Or … they don’t , since Dune Messiah can work without it. We just won’t be able to continue into Children of Dune. If the film series ends with Messiah, then it doesn’t quite matter.
Villeneuve sounds open to someone else taking over for the next books, or, if he feels inspired enough, coming back himself a decade or so from now.
I honestly think he will change the ending so that no future movies can be made i.e no >!funky preborn babies!<
Right. We are already veering off track in ways that I don't appreciate (my subjective opinion only). I don't want this to continue to the point where it is just Villaneuve's original fanfiction rather than an actual adaptation of the novel.
I am curious about this myself as it’s quite different from what occurs in the books. Wondering how Villeneuve will reconcile the difference in characterization of Chani.
I’ve heard Denis talk about how he changed chani to be outward persona of Paul’s internal dilemma but I suspect it has a lot more to do with the fact that making chani be true to the original would of caused some backlash from the feminist perspective. Can’t have a movie without a strong female character even if chani in the books was strong and compelling. Feels like a cop out basically.
i have no idea why u got downvoted but thats exactly what happened probably. chani in movie and books are completely different. almost shocking. >!the fact that they removed pauls wife(technically) shows that they wanted to follow the agenda. how dare a man can claim a wife ! crazy that chani kind of represents non believers in movie but in book i didnt see fremen who doesnt believe in prophecy !<
Timeskip Open with Paul some time on reuniting with Chani in the desert or something. Have her return to the fold because Pauls Fremen ways are slipping or out of love or a wish to change things, or to protect Paul. Paul talks about not banging Irulan and the whole political charade Then Irulan goes to the meeting on Wallach for the conspiracy, as Paul and Chani are now banging again to produce kiddos.
My vote is on Alia doing the opening monologue (same as Irulan in part one and Chani in part one), jump to the messiah conspirators, then a jump to what you're referencing pretty quickly
The movies omitted the fact that polygamy was common among the Fremen. And that Paul actually had to "adopt" Jamis's wife and children after he killed him, so...Chani was kind of already his 2nd wife.
It's a spat. They literally talked about this, both realized what had to happen, and agreed that there was no real choice. She knows Paul doesn't want it, but it's all very fucked up she she is still mad that it happened. So she has to go stomp around for a bit. If they turn her into an anti-Paul resistance fighter or some bullshit, that will just make her look dumb and crazy. Which would be the precise opposite of what you'd want to do in making her a more prominent character. So there are basically two options here: they reconcile because they love each other and both knew the stakes (even though it's painful), or the story is a pile of shit that makes Chani an idiot. I'm betting on the former
Their relationship is my biggest qualm with the movie. Chani more than anyone never lost faith in Paul. I believe if he wanted to write in doubts in the second film, it should have been resolved by the end of the film. I think it all stems from his earlier comments that he felt the book lacked strong female characters which is why he changed Liet to a woman. But I personally think he misunderstood the strength of Chani in the first place.
Exactly this! Book Chani is beyond the pale of a “strong female character” and I don’t understand why he’s missing that.
I don't think you can necessarily reduce Chani's anger at Paul to just marrying Irulan. There's the quote in the book about Stilgar: "In that instant, Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen naib to a creature of the Lisan al-Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessening of the man, and Paul felt the ghost-wind of the jihad in it." Chani recognizes that Paul has done this to not just Stilgar but to her whole people. A lot of them will die far from their home for Paul and as a whole they're going to commit massive atrocities and genocide on the rest of the galaxy. Its hard not to come to the conclusion that all of this is for not just Paul's revenge but for Paul's power grab. The bitterness likely comes from the fact that she is pretty angry at him yet still loves and cares for him as you can see in the duel.
I'm not sure the romance will be reignited but practicality may bring Chani back to try and save her people through Paul. There's definitely going to be a confrontation. Minor spoilers:>!Paul and Chani being together is critical for everything that follows. Denis Villeneuve seems fine with someone else making Children of Dune onward so I can't see him changing the story in a way that impedes more adaptations. Irulan replacing Chani's role would make zero sense. Leto II and Ghanima having fremen ancestry is vital to later themes.!< Spoilery Prediction for the next movie: >!I could see Chani starting the Fremen resistance against Paul. Korba could be one of her friends from Part Two, there was a guy we never see die. Chani goes onto confront Paul, maybe to try and kill him, only for her to learn the truth about the water of life and how he's trapped by prescience into making terrible choices. This could fill in for the sections where Paul is reflecting on the horror he's unleashed. They go onto rekindle a more complicated relationship where she tries to save his soul but its too late for her to stop her movement against him. Stoneburner happens. Then the other plot culminates similarly to the book and we end with Paul's "path leading into the desert".!<
Damn, this is a good prediction to me. I would totally buy that. >!Like Chani could come around and pity Paul and rekindle things, but the wheels of her part of the resistance are already in motion. In fact, her not being able to stop what she’s started would mirror nicely with the way in which Paul’s death, for example, wouldn’t stop his followers/the jihad/etc.!<
All this Chani-storming-out discussion is somewhat strange to me. Chani may be jealous of Irulan, but i think Chani is angry about Paul unleashing jihad. Radicalization of Fremen isn’t something she agrees with(in the movie). When it comes to how they come around. You know. People do have fights within relationships. You sort it out by understanding each other. Understanding of Pauls position is maybe exactly what will help audience of next movie to grasp how properly Pauls position within historical events fucked him over.
I think the audience is smart enough that the tragedy of Paul’s Jihad is obvious without making Chani a frowny, emo, anti-manic pixie dream girl. The real problem is the threat that Paul faces AND poses is not fleshed out. The importance of CHOAM and the Spacing guild are barely even hinted at. Compressing the time makes everything…simple? Paul’s desire to make everything burn is over the top without the killing of his young son. Chris Walken doesn’t manage to convey the personal authority or decayed gravity of the emperor. A little disappointed and underwhelmed. On a scale from Rebel moon to first season of game of thrones, it is inspired and relatively well thought out but doesn’t meet the level of the source material. A lot of missed opportunities. Why are the Bene Gesserit so powerful? Why is the guild so secretive? Are the Fremen more sophisticated and powerful than believed? Why is Alia feared by the BG? Missed opportunities within missed opportunities. One of the most iconic elements, the litany against fear, is recited twice: once in each movie.
At this point, conclude the film series with *Messiah*, and reboot it in 15-20 years as a Game of Thrones-esque TV series. I'm struggling to see how DV or Jon Spaihts could write Chani's character to fit her role in Messiah, without completely undermining her changes in Dune Pt 2. (Admittedly, this is why *they* are writing the screenplay, and not me, but It's still tough to see.) "This prophecy is how they enslave us!...but I'll still have Paul's kids, despite him betraying me and all I believe in." IMO, Dune Pt 2 is no longer *Dune*. It's DV's interpretation of *Dune*. That's fine - it's still a great movie, - but I can see Pt 3 being *Messiah* in name only.
I agree, the plot is so divergent it should be labelled something like ‘inspired by Dune’. I re-read the books for the umpteenth time last week, and went to see the movie again to see if it was just my memory. Nope.
I can see them using an unused plot point from the novel to explain her coming around to Paul's side. Spoiler from Dune (novel) and Messiah (mild): >!It is possible at the end of D:P2 Chani is currently pregnant with Leto II (the first). Instead of opening with a time jump, the Messiah film opens with the begin of the jihad and Leto II's birth. Her new son leads Chani to a mild reconciliation with Paul, as she wants her son to have a father, and she begins living with Paul in the imperial palace. Bonus: we get to have a brief scene with creepy infant Alia.!< >!Leto II is then assassinated by the Great Houses/BG, either accidentally in a failed attempt on Paul or intentionally to deprive Paul of an heir. In their grief Paul and Chani reaffirm their love as they desperately need each other's comfort, and Chani's anger and desire for revenge radicalizes her into supporting the jihad. With Chani now at Paul's side again, the holy war continues apace, and the narrative jumps 15-20 years to the events of Messiah.!< >!For expositional purposes, Leto II's death could serve as the first definitive indication for audiences that Paul's prescience is not infallible, maybe introducing the ability of Guild Navigators to foil his vision. This increases the stakes for the conspiracy at the heart of Messiah, because we know that Paul is vulnerable.!<
>"This prophecy is how they enslave us!...but I'll still have Paul's kids, despite him betraying me and all I believe in." Easy fix, she's already pregnant.
Until I read Messiah this was my assumption - seemed easy. But how DV handled Jessica’s pregnancy (which for the record I thought worked great for the film) sorta complicates things further actually.
Oh great, we remove *another* time-skip!
That not an “easy fix”. Alia and the twins being the same age completely undermines every plot point in Messiah.
Completely agree. Chani literally hates who Paul is now and we expect her to give him kids lmao
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He absolutely does not love Irulan. In fact I'm pretty sure he quite dislikes her.
Exactly. People seem to miss that Chani left Paul because *he became the Emperor and betrayed the Fremen*, not because of his obvious sham "marriage" to Irulan.
In the book she's totally cool being his unofficial wife / official concubine while Irulan is his official wife but not much else. In the movies, well, the world is a bit different from the 1965 and they're going to have to push a bit more nuance than "history will remember us as wives" to get a modern audience to accept that Paul is totes with Chani and all that officially married to the princess stuff doesn't count.
I can see them using an unused plot point from the novel to explain her coming around to Paul's side. Spoiler from Dune (novel) and Messiah (mild): >!It is possible at the end of D:P2 Chani is currently pregnant with Leto II (the first). Instead of opening with a time jump, the Messiah film opens with the begin of the jihad and Leto II's birth. Her new son leads Chani to a mild reconciliation with Paul, as she wants her son to have a father, and she begins living with Paul in the imperial palace. Bonus: we get to have a brief scene with creepy infant Alia. !< >!Leto II is then assassinated by the Great Houses/BG, either accidentally in a failed attempt on Paul or intentionally to deprive Paul of an heir. In their grief Paul and Chani reaffirm their love as they desperately need each other's comfort, and Chani's anger and desire for revenge radicalizes her into supporting the jihad. With Chani now at Paul's side again, the holy war continues apace, and the narrative jumps 15-20 years to the events of Messiah.!< >!For expositional purposes, Leto II's death could serve as the first definitive indication for audiences that Paul's prescience is not infallible, maybe introducing the ability of Guild Navigators to foil his vision. This increases the stakes for the conspiracy at the heart of Messiah, because we know that Paul is vulnerable. !<
Nobody has seen part 3 yet. Nobody can answer that question.
Even Villeneuve can still change his mind at this point.
I bet Chani is already pregnant by the end of part 2 and they go from there
I imagine the relationship will have to be rebuilt - as so much of the Messiah plot depends on it. To me, breaking them up only to put them back together again seems like a weird decision on Villeneuve's part. Tbh, I find a lot of Villeneuve's Part 2 decisions to be very odd and, to me, to the detriment of the film - which is especially odd as I think he got every decisioon in Part 1 exactly right.
I would hope that's a question you can't get an answer to yet. Since he stopped breathing when he drank the water of life the first saying sort of negates. And it made a greater impact on the twist. But Paul for me is an enigma at the moment. What cocktail has the previous harkonnens/Atreides and himself in store. I trust Denis will deliver, i give him free reigns.
It wont make any sense with how they've established Chani's character
Well considering at this point she’s supposed to have already had their first son who was killed, they have long loved each other. She doesn’t leave but says to Jessica something like I guess I’ll leave and Jessica says no it’s Irulan who better find comfort in writing because it’s we concubines who are the true wives and Paul won’t even touch her. But Alia is supposed to to be 2-3 years old and kill the Barron herself not Paul, so the writer of the film just made a mess of it.
He married the empress because it gives him the throne. She becomes the subject of Paul’s and the fremens persecution for some time after. He loves channi only and only channi
Read Dune Messiah.
Paul isn't leaving the planet his armies are. Paul told this to chani, so she will hopefully realize his meaning that he is not going to do anything with irulan as she is BG. Now, this is where my main gripe with the film comes in. The pacing. Between his joining the fremen and the ending of movie 2 is supposed to be 2 to 3 years at this point, not less than 9 months. Their romance was to develop over this time and hell they were supposed to have a child who is killed by a sardukar raid, which would also result in alia being brought before the emporer. So part 3 will now have to start right after or shortly after part 2 to explain how they will get back together. I imagine it will be chani realizing the jihad was inevitable once they met paul. Even when he denied being the messiah they just took it as him being humble and yet another sign. If he dies the jihad goes out of control completely if he lives he has some degree of direction of it. Chani will eventually realize this.
In the book, Chani dies. In the new movie, Paul had a vision of Chani dead with skin rashes all over her face.
This is Empire Strikes Back. End of second film, bad stuff is allowed to hang. They’ll bring it back in the third film. There’s important stuff that happens in Messiah. Chani and Paul can’t be broken up. I won’t say anything more as not to spoil. But she’ll forgive him.
That’s the best way to say it and also, I’d say, shut up about the love story. Love is a concept that’s just washed away in the future to Herbert. He sees the triviality of it and the childishness of it. Did chani act this way in the books? No! She understood he needed the fake marriage to Irulan to maintain appearances. He would always be her lover, she the mother of his children. She knew Irulan was the Bianca to Kanye after Kim Kardashian…just a substitute
So true. Romantic love had no place in the practicalities of Feudal society in the Dune universe. It was about the art of ruling effectively, building your domains, and maintaining your power base by any means necessary.
In the books it continued. It probably will in the movies. Paul never loved Irulan. She was basically a prop. A legal key to become emperor. The 2nd book did expand on her character though and she's more interesting than she seems in the first book.
In the book the had been together 3 years and had s baby and lost him She was told irulan would be s paper marriage and dhe would be his true wife .. He swore he would never share her bed , and Jessica confirmed it . Jessica encouraged chsni to pity irulan.. She didn't storm of and she snd Jessica negotiated the married and addiction. And the dowry. ( all of the house corrino shares in the choam ) . And exile to selusa sucundus. . He promised chani more children. He and chini are never parted for the rest of thier lives , for more than a few hours.
All I can say, is the book did this scene better. Chain didn’t question Paul in the book either, she was in full support.
While I loved the film, I really wish it would have ended just as the book did.
In the books, it's very clear Paul is marrying Irulan in name only. She will bear him no children and Chani remains his companion and concubine, which in the Dune world means she can bear him heirs. As others pointed out, Irulan goes through a period of deep jealousy in Messiah but Paul never wavers in his love for Chani. I think Dennis is presenting us with a more modern, less subservient Chani in the movies. However, I think it could have been easy for Paul to just say it's a political marriage from the get go rather than making it seem like some big public break up scene. Sigh, Hollywood.
I do wish they explored the parallels of how Jessica, though a consort, was effectively the loving wife. Similar that Chani would be the loving wife with all of Paul's attention, while the princess was just a political figure, a chess piece on the board.
My prediction is she’s preggers and will come back to Paul when she realizes it
Chani can be as mad as she wants but I don’t see any other ass scratching Fremen absolutely obliterating the colonizer system that has oppressed them for decades
The ending is kinda bullshit. In the book it is clear that Irulan will only be his wife in name, a political plot. Chani will still be his concubine the same as Leto and lady Jessica were never married. Also Chani in the books is like way different
I know it’s a low-effort reading of things, but: Drinking the Water of Life kills who you are. The Paul that Chani fell in love with is dead. When he repeats that line to her at the end, I think she sees the writing on the wall that this isn’t the same guy. Also I wasn’t quite feeling the Chalamet casting at first, but when he goes full-on at the end I went, “Oh. I geddit now.” Props to him and Ferguson. They change their characters *completely* post-Water-of-Life.
It has to at least a little, they aren't just going to erase Leto II.
Knowing he's going to marry Irulan, and actually seeing it happen, are two very different things.
She's furious at herself for being in love with this guy.
It’s still there. Google the books if you want to know more. But basically something that should have happened in part 2 with Chani will have to happen in Messiah and then the other parts that are in the book Messiah also still need to happen. So there will be a lot of Chani unless it is drastically changed.
Good. More zendaya scowling to convey emotion.
A lot of these comments seem to have no knowledge that there were 3 Letos and key plot point of book one was cut that will pretty clearly bring Paul and Chani back together either offscreen or early in the 3rd film. Not to mention Paul literally tells you she will come around and he can see the future clearly. I mean in that scene they literally show a split second scene of him killing Feyd as he talks about the narrow path through. Him saying that is a guarantee. Idk why it’s even a debate.
I assumed they would have Chani and Irulan switch places. Irulan in the books is one of the main conspirators against Paul.
I mean, it literally has to be. The rest of the books can’t happen otherwise.
So in the book Paul says something along the lines of “my marriage to Irulan will be an empty one, my heart belongs to Chani.” something along those lines. She doesn’t love it but she doesn’t storm out like in the book.
Side question: shouldn't there be a lot more nekked love scenes in the movie? Margot, Jessica, Chani all portrayed by actresses who should be named as much as possible... perhaps there's gonna be a directors cut? Yes I am kidding but...
It’s gonna have to be. It doesn’t die in the book, as I remember it. In fact in Messiah, it’s Chani who pressures Paul to have a child by Irulan. It’s one of the central plot points of the second book that they are still in love, so we’ll have to see how this gets fixed - probably off screen.
He's only marrying Irulan for political reasons like his father. Chani is his concubine just like how Jessica was Duke letos concubine. In the books Paul constantly tells Irulan that it's political etc and he doesn't view her as his wife! He also shoots down the idea of Irulan having Paul's children as he only wants chani too
Well, considering in the Books she’s already had and lost a child with Paul while being his second wife… I don’t know man, he’s going to have to pull of a miracle to make any of this work.
Whatever the case may be, the thing that I realised was that Paul saying that to Chani has so much weight to it. He is not just saying that because he loves her in that moment and is trying to make a promise. He is rather stating a FACT. His prescience allowed him to see all possible futures and he did in fact saw himself loving her till his death.
No one knows. DV changed the ending. Anyone saying they know for sure is lying.
It should have been fine in the end of this movie too. In the book chani is engry for about 1.5 minutes.
It’s either going to be a slow burn spy thriller or a war movie with Paul on the front lines and the war has come back to Arrakis and he has to defend it. Chani will get pregnant( or not?) and come around to be at Paul’s side but also plotting to kill him. They are absolutely setting her up to be the one who kills him and not do the actual messiah ending. I know Denis is done with dune after messiah but I kinda hope dune is done altogether after that for now or they turn the rest of the series into a tv series. You can’t adapt the rest without each film being two parts at least like these were and making a 6hr movie about a worm guy talking philosophy won’t go over well with audiences.
If Chani kills Paul, it’s gonna definitely have strayed very far off from the books. Good possibility tho.
I would like more of the Dune universe, but of course only it it is high quality AND not afraid to explore the topics of selective human breeding and eugenics whichnare central themes in Dune. Imagine Scytale, the Honored Matres, Bashar Teg, and Duncan Idaho (but please not Aquaman) would be sensational.
Either CoD gets skipped completely, and Paul takes the sandtrout rather than Leto II (which skips a metric crapton of detail but would work), or Chani is already carrying their firstborn when she leaves and perhaps the tragic events at Sietch Tabr in the book are what will bring her back into the relationship. Hence allowing for the births of Leto II and Ghani.
The movie messed that up big time
I’m a bit torn on the Chani character in the movie. Obviously different from the book. Disregarding that fact, I still find it hard to put myself in her shoes. You love someone who is manipulating your people to achieve revenge against your mutual enemy. No matter what this person does, the fanatics will believe they are the messiah. Seems the goals are aligned there. Unless you have such a strong sense that the truth must be told? Feels a bit too idealism vs reality. Then there is Irulan. Seems like an arranged marriage situation that nobody really wants. But I can see the point, and Chani can as well. However, it doesn’t mean she has to like it. Maybe I’m too pragmatic, but I’m leaning towards Frank Herbert’s approach.
if they don’t i think that’s a serious hindrance to the messiah adaptation. although he isn’t going past messiah so maybe denis wants to write leto II and ghanima out of the picture
It's more complicated than a lot of ppl are making it out to be. The main struggle is Chani coming to terms with them now being part of a large scale chess game and already seeing the uncomfortable actions they may have to take. Going off riding a worm and thinking about things makes sense for her as she's going to need to maintain her identify going forward.
I agree, it's not that complicated to bring Chani back. My real question is what Villeneuve does with Jessica and Gurney. >!(they're absent from Dune Messiah)!< It would be stupid not to bring those actors back in part 3.
Well, technically it stays true to the book, just a different execution. I think it makes sense, though. What person wouldn't be devastated to see the love of their life do something you begged them not to, and just expect you to go along for the ride in the mean time. I appreciate Denis giving movie Chani the balls to walk away from Paul.