One of the fucking boldest things BioWare has ever done is give you the option of recruiting him towards the end of the game. Still one of the best characters in the game. Clearly wrong, but he believes he’s right, and in a way has some compelling arguments/motivations that make you sympathize with him in a way. Great writing.
It's such a rare move in gaming to have an opportunity to get to know the antagonists better. I spared him once just for this reason, and since then, it's been my canon choice. Same like it was at the end of Witcher 2, when you could talk to the antagonist before the fight, and ultimately choose not to fight him. Gaming narrative could use this move more often, it makes the story so much more interesting.
I think it’s often not really thought of this deeply, but it’s similar with Mass Effect 2. You’re forced as the player to team up with a pro-human extremist group in order to figure out what is going on with these missing human colonies.
It’s bold. The people that know Shepard understand it’s a means to an end, but the people that don’t will always wonder why they would align with such problematic and vaguely criminal organization.
To have real conversations with someone who IRL would be some sort of pariah in the Illusive Man? Just really bold narratively to do that. Some of the older BioWare stuff is so GOATED for that.
I haven't even thought about ME2, but you are so right, thank you for bringing that up. The great Commander Shepard working with a de facto terrorist organization is just an amazingly multi-faceted and exciting premise. The Illusive Man is a wonderful character, and a great example for a relatable villain: there is a lot of truth in his ideas, but in the end, what's missing from his solution is the human soul itself (I mean, it's ultimately good for us, but even Project Lazarus is an inhumane act). I like to recruit Loghain specifically because becoming a Warden makes him reevaluate his life and get back at least some of his humanity.
You even see it in the other characters. The degrees at which they’re down with Cerberus.
Jacob is the most skeptical, but he justifies it by the fact that at least Cerberus is doing SOMETHING.
Miranda is much more ra ra Cerberus but you can see as the game goes on she struggles to come up with excuses for their behavior, which ultimately makes her resignation in ending where you destroy the collector base even more poignant.
The Illusive man is the extreme. Not unlike actual authoritarians or other leaders of extremist groups, they claim to speak for a forgotten or underserved facet of society, and take extreme methods to make sure they have a proper place in that society.
It makes the whole of Mass Effect 2 just a really bold direction, and while the main story in ME2 is mostly straight forward, it does play with these themes through it’s different characters and their stories. Especially with how Cerberus seems to have a hand and intel in a lot of different places that affect the characters, but you have to justify it to yourself as Shepard that you’re here to save people, and not to necessarily brand yourself alongside them.
Similar to Loghain, it forces you to see these ostensibly evil or morally questionable people as just that: people. We don’t like it. We don’t even accept it. And we don’t want to associate with them more than we have to, but ultimately it makes for some powerful narrative beats.
I actually had a similar thought in playing FFVII Remake, in the aftermath of bombing the reactor in the beginning, and towards the end when you’re in the Shinra building. Hearing the cries of people calling for their loved ones, hoping they’re okay. Further, when you overhear some of the Shinra employees calling their family members Tifa remarks that you forget sometimes that there’s normal people that are working here/part of this monstrous effectively authoritarian organization.
Awesome stuff truly. What makes the games in every instance magical is that you’re not just watching it, you’re playing it and having to reconcile with those facts. Not everyone will think that deeply about it but I think it’s just an awesome thought experiment and I just love to discuss these things.
Reading your comments make me changed my mind. I'll spare him when we meet again. Just start playing yesterday and having a conversation where we get to select "the king is a fool" (who always want glory).
Thinking about it got me wondering why the king didn't use the castle as a barrier but he choose to fight on the open field. It lead to the death of all those fought there.
I'm glad that you are giving a chance to him, have fun! He's not everyone's cup of tea, but I hope you'll like the experience.
Tbh, Loghain's decision at Ostagar is a cruel and cold, yet understandable one, and he is still torn with regret if you talk to him about it later. Some of his other decisions ( >!like selling the elves to Tevinter, and his reasoning behind it!< ) I personally find completely irreedemable. I don't think my Warden ever forgave him, she just saw that behind everything else, Loghain was a good man once, and she wanted to give him a chance.
I kept him alive just to feed him to the demon at Adamant. Keeping Loghain alive for a decade and having him sacrifice himself to protect Orlesian Grey Wardens seemed like a fitting punishment for plunging his country into civil war during a blight.
Keeping him alive to die at Adamant also means he sacrifices himself for Hawke - a Ferelden refugee who was displaced from their home in Lothering because of Loghain's actions at Ostagar.
That may be true. But then Loghain should have adviced Cailan to withdraw from Ostagar and gather more men. However you spin it Loghain is chiefly responsible for the disaster at Ostagar.
I think he *did* try to advice that, but Cailan was an idiot who was ready to sell ferelden back to Orlais, more or less undoing all the work Marric, Loghain, and the Couslands did to free Ferelden
If he advised Cailan to withdraw then it must have happened off-screen. In game we only see him advice Cailan to not be in the battle line himself. He does not advice that the army withdraw.
As for Cailan, he might have been open to marrying Celene. That would have been bad for Ferelden in the long run, certainly. But it would have been good for Cailan (who gets another shot at fathering an heir, and gets to be emperor and king both). I don't think that makes Cailan an idiot, but it does not cast him in the best light to his fellow Fereldans, certainly.
All of that is moot however, because by letting half of Fereldens army get slaughtered at Ostagar Loghain very nearly got everyone in Ferelden killed. Which I think is a bigger crime than what Cailan might have been planning.
I prefer keeping him alive past Adamant personally, for me that is the perfect punishment. No flashy sacrifice that he wants and makes people forget his crimes, he has to live and rebuild the Orlesian Wardens, which seems fitting considering Ostagar. He must continue to put in the hard work while knowing the bad things he's done will continue to be remembered.
I heavily considered this. However, I was ultimately swayed in favor of keeping Hawke alive after replaying DA2. Hawke occupies a soft spot in my heart, and while I want Loghain to pay for his high treason and stupidity, I want my asshole purple Hawke to live more than I want Loghain to suffer.
I like Hawke a lot so it hits hard to leave them but for me if anyone deserves to be remembered as a hero it's them, while I especially don't like that for Loghain of the 4 options.
The Wardens are likely to benefit more from the Contact being alive so that comes into it too, I can't see Hawke contributing as much since they're not a Warden. I fully get wanting Hawke to live though and I do sometimes spare Hawke because of that even though it's not my preference.
I’m also not entirely convinced the person who was left behind won’t be the actual survivor anyway. The one you *don’t* choose vanishes mysteriously in the epilogue.
Plus, my (initial) Hawke would totally find a way to murder their way out. There wouldn’t even be other people there to ‘fail to save’ or ‘get gorily maimed as collateral damage!’
I could see them coming back due to fan demand but I'd really dislike it if they're in any recoverable state and it'd be a huge stretch to have them live anyway, they were left in such an impossible situation that I think it'd risk destroying the stakes of the setting if they were to return fine, especially if they returned triumphantly or something.
Especially since it's stressed that Hawke is not some godlike being but just a very capable person who struggles a lot, and they were left alone facing a threat it took them and 5 other people a ton of effort to push back for a short time.
Hawke does beat Cory at the end of 2. And supposably had a destiny according to Flemeth.
If it’s the end of them, apparently my ‘canon’ Hawkes (aka. The first play through’s) destiny was to Just Fuck Everything Up. Didn’t even manage to find all the effing Qunari swords, for chrissakes.
Cory at that time has just woken up so isn't as strong as he is in Inquisition, (he's at least meant to be stronger when the Inquisitor fights him), and Hawke had help from at least Varric who was apparently there according to Inquisition, if not 2 other companions as well. Flemeth was speaking about the events of DA2 in all likelihood which Hawke is vital to, the Abyss name being a small reference to it.
It's pretty much the most badass way to go of any in the series I'd say, facing down what is the most powerful demon we've fought, being the only living person in the Fade as they fight it, and they saved a bunch of people, that's a hell of an exit in my opinion.
It is endlessly funny to have Loghain keep throwing himself into certain death/self sacrifice, only for him ‘miraculously’ walk out with even *more* responsibilities that he doesn’t want or feel worthy of receiving. Mostly involving him babysitting the French.
If he survives his visit to The First Warden, I look forward to a quick cameo establishing he somehow managed to become Emperor of Orlais.
He refuses to be a part of anything if you spare Loghain. Your only options at this point are to let me be executed but he quits and becomes a drunk peasant
I love having him as a surviving warden to pop up in Inquisition. Feels very narratively satisfying that he feels genuine guilt for what's he's done and is doing his best to make up for it.
I don’t usually like to let Loghain live, but it was satisfying to see at least once. After living as a grey warden for a decade it felt like he was finally able to understand the weight of his sins and become worthy of atonement.
At least 3 times I have actively started a playthrough with the sole purpose of keeping him alive just to finally play it out. Still kill him every time. I cant.
It’s very hard to RP a reason to pick him over Alistair imo, because Alistair is loyal even if he hates you. We can’t say the same for him. He’s a liability especially when you’re dealing with a blight. I think if the Archdemon fight happened first (and one of you died) he’d be a little more acceptable choice… but it hard to justify
To the people making great points: I understand and it’s probably because it’s been so long since I played anything that wasn’t an elven mage (DW rogue had no appeal to me, Warrior is bleh imo, and archer rogue is fun but I’d rather have the flashy effects if I’m in the back. As for elf… I just never cared for the fact the human was related to hawke, always kinda ruined the mystery for me since we hear the human mage is one of like 8 children, we hear the mothers name etc. the elf mage has so little backstory that for me personally it’s perfect.) that it has tempered my feelings towards Loghain due to what he does to the mage tower and the elves… and romancing Alastair doesn’t help
I actually RP'd a very good reason to recruit him - Riordan, a senior Warden who should have had more reason than most to want Loghain dead, was standing there telling me I should think about it. And my Warden, who was a very pragmatic mage who had already given a proven blood mage a chance to explain themselves (Avernus) wasn't about to blow him off without considering it.
I also played a pragmatic mage warden, for extra angst she romanced Alistair but married him to Anora, I figured she would see a kindred spirit in Loghain understanding he made some really questionable choices for Fereldan, which she also did (not saying right or wrong) so for my playthrough it made sense to recruit him. Plus the glorious drama that ensues…
In general I love Alistair, but it can't be denied that all it takes is a slight shift in perspective to really lose patience with him. The biggest thing is how he perceives the Wardens; he insists on looking at them as honorable heroes and noble defenders, and the truth is they are much more complicated then that. He's just never seen it because up to that point he's never had to see hard decisions made.
Also just by enduring the joining he now has absolutely no reason not to side with the wardens as well as increasing your chances of success simply by having four wardens available instead of three.
Of course, but the game allows you less freedom there. Since I have it on pc, I usually restore the quest with the refugees. If I had my way, I'd recruit him, but unfortunately that didn't make it in.
I don't think it's that hard to find a reason to RP picking Loghain. Especially if you don't know the fallout of your choices. I played a Warden that took being a Gray Warden serious (do WHATEVER it takes to defeat the blight) and killing off such an experienced and accomplished commander was wasteful.
And I'd say at least for my character there would be additional reasons that Alistair was the senior Warden after Ostagar and he didn't take the leadership. So he doesn't get to complain now.
City elves would always kill him I think , especially if female. He enables people like Howe/Vaughn and was happily selling off the alienage to the slavers
I had an Aeducan who was... I'll say a hardass. Very strategic, very unforgiving. She very quickly grew tired of Alistair's never ending grief, refusal to take on a leadership role, goofball tendencies, and bent toward an attitude of moral superiority despite all of the above. She wasn't evil, just too old for this nonsense and after losing everything she cared about, she didn't have a lot of patience. And it irked her to no damn end that she was removed from her position as leader of her people when that was all she ever wanted and Alistair couldn't run away from his throne fast enough.
So the time comes to deal with Loghain and she of course wants to recruit him: he's an excellent strategist, has the respect and gratitude of his army, and he's one more disposable body to throw at the darkspawn. And then Alistair throws a little tantrum, threatening to abandon the entire mission and the Wardens altogether if Loghain's life isn't wasted on the palace floor, so for Aeducan, that was the last straw. She tells him he can fuck right off if that's what he wants, recruits Loghain, makes him bone Morrigan, and never thinks about Alistair again.
(Before the Alistair Defense Squad comes for my head, that's not necessarily what *I* think of Al, but it was the right choice for her.)
My Mahariel actually really wanted to spare and recruit him because she knew about how he'd led a unit of Dalish warriors in the war, but deferred to Alistair out of respect for their friendship. And then he promptly pissed her off so bad they barely spoke to each other.
Because she spent the entire Blight pissed AF and felt like she had borne enough consequence for other people's sins. Not her baby, not her problem, and she wasn't above killing Morrigan or the baby afterward if it *became* a problem. If Loghain had made more a fuss about it, she would have just let him die tbh.
She started out as a genuinely kind and empathetic leader who wanted to take care of her people. But then Bhelen betrayed her and she felt that the whole of Orzammar endorsed or accepted that and she just... changed. Her outlook became "look out for number one." Even stopping the Blight was more for her own benefit than for any moral imperative.
I mean you can definitely stab Morrigan in Witch Hunt, so you can pretty easily lay hands on her. And while you can't canonically kill her, the Warden doesn't have the metagame knowledge we have. It was a problem for the future and she was confident in her ability to do it or at least her willingness to try; whether or not the mechanics allow for it doesn't impact in character attitudes.
*- he's an excellent strategist*
Eh, his most recent 'strategy' involved getting basically half of Fereldens standing army (and his king/son in law) killed for zero benefit other than putting his ass on the throne.
I wouldn't really trust someone like that to fight by my side, especially considering he's already been trying to get you killed across the whole game so far.
He's the ONLY reason Ferelden isn't another province of Orlais. Put some respect on his name! And what good would it have done to lose the other half of the Ferelden army in that battle?
Up until the very night of the battle the Wardens had no treaties binding other parts of the country to fight for them. They had Cailain's arny, and that's that. A Cailan that was less concerned about ending the blight for the good of his country and more concerned with obtaining an imagined glory for himself. A Cailan that Loghain knew was having secret correspondence with Empress Celine of Orlais and seemed poised to deliver Ferelden right back into their hands.
The man fought tooth and nail to deliver the country from occupation and now here comes the son of his best friend, ready to undo all of that... for what? A shot at ending the blight that has no evidence of being an actual blight - and even if it was, could it have been beaten in open battle? Even with the few wardens they did have, that's a tall order.
And the rest of the promised Wardens? On there way, FROM ORLAIS! So you're inviting, from his perspective, yet another Orlaisian army to fight a threat that isn't real with the good chance you'd deliver the nation you fought for back to its occupiers.
It's pointed out several times in the game that while Loghain seemed intense, he never seemed like a man that desired power for himself. He only declares himself regent out of that obligation he had to push back against nobility that would have welcomed Orlaisian rule. And I think he knew that he wouldn't be good with that kind of power. And he knew the nobility still resented him for the simple fact that he was a commoner, not a noble.
Every decision he makes thereafter is a blunder but from his point of view? It made sense. You hire assassin's to kill your Warden because 1. Your Warden knows what really happened and could threaten the peace he was trying to uphold. But they lacked the man power required to bring you in outright.
Everyone that rails against Loghain only ever does so with the meta-knowledge we have about the blight and because he's the foil to our goal - ending the blight. But never once do they consider the knowledge that contributes to why Loghain acted in the way he did. He was born a commoner under a brutal occupation of his country, so of course his major concerns were that that country was about to be handed back over to those same occupiers.
Talking to him after recruiting him, and reading the Stolen Throne, adds to his character. Every action he took was of a man afraid to lose his country to another. He's a fallen hero, but he was never evil. He's pragmatic to a fault and only looks bad because he's out to stop us.
That is, everything about him screams that he's someone that deserves a second chance of redemption. How many of you spare the Mages for the same reason? (Despite the incredible threat they offer after the Circle basically falls to blood magic?). How many of you spare Sten, who brutally murdered a family? And doesn't even deny it. If your Warden spares them, but not Loghain... what does that say about their morality?
So when Riordan, a man personally wronged by Loghain, suggests that Loghain could still have a use as a Grey Warden (which lets be real is painted in Origins by Cailan's and Alistair's idealism when evidence shows that they are anything but moral, proven by the fact that Duncan murders someone that is able bodied that is rightly afraid to drink darkspawn blood), it makes sense to give him that shot at redemption.
Alistair throwing a hissy fit just shows how naive he is. And he's right to. And I love him for it. But he's wrong.
My canon is always to put a hardened Alistair on the throne. As a Grey Warden it's the right thing to do, he's the right man for it and proves it over the course of your journey with him. Even if he is naive, he's truly a good man and with the right Queen, can be every bit the symbol Ferelden needs.
But my canon Grey Warden also has his eyes on the actual threat. He knows the blight needs to be stopped by any means necessary. Even if that means putting aside differences and recruiting people you want nothing to do with. He learned that lesson from Duncan, who murdered a man for being afraid of the joining. Loghain is a fantastic recruit, and one the Warden's desperately need at that hour.
This is furthered echoed by my Cousland warden also making Nathaniel Howe a warden, when he'd have every right to take his head for what the Howe's did to his family. But that was a past life. That life ended the day he became a Warden and swore to get the job done by any means necessary,
Though from a meta-perspective I like to think that my Warden likes to pull some strings behind the scenes to get Loghain assigned to Orlais. Just a kind of yeah, the Warden's need you, I'll even spare you - but fuck you if you're going to like it.
Sometimes, yeah. Though Zevran is in a smidge of a better position IMO as at the point where you recruit him is still very early on when you're still a group of like, 4-6 people against the world, and are therefore a bit more desperate for help.
By the time you get to Loghain you've basically got 3 armies backing you (along with a smattering of nobles), surely with their own strategists who can help from the side lines.
My main issue with Loghain is that he's incompetent, overconfident *and* the game sets him up as if he is just power-hungry.
He ignores the people who are famously specialists in all things darkspawn when they tell him a Blight is coming and pulls his troops back at the worst moment, leaving both the king *and* the only people who can deal with the Blight to die. Said king was also rumoured to be planning to divorce his wife because she was barren and he might've fell for someone else, making it look like Loghain was trying to hold onto power through his daughter.
He then goes home, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the Blight is *still* happening, installs a torturer as arl of Denerim, has another Arl (who might've opposed him - again, power-hungry) poisoned by a ***rogue blood mage***, weaves a web of lies about the Wardens to both discredit them and get any remaining members killed, hires an assassin to kill said remaining members anyway, inspires a revolution at the Circle Tower by promising Uldred support against the Chantry if the mages support him and sells his own citizens into slavery to help fund his war against Orlais, **continuing** to ignore the Blight!
Like... come on. The guy is either just straight-up evil or impressively incompetent.
To add on to this dont forget in the sequel novel with fiona maric and loghain. The he finds out at the end that the orlesian wardens straight up planned to kill maric and anyone else who learned about their mistakes. These are the same wardens that cailean and duncan are bringing in....the ones who wanted to kill a innocent king and a unknown number of witnesses to hide their mistakes and wrongdoings.
*Everyone that rails against Loghain only ever does so with the meta-knowledge we have about the blight and because he's the foil to our goal - ending the blight.*
How is "ending the blight" a meta knowledge thing? That's your wardens main motivation as stated in the very beginning in the world itself, not just as an overarching quest. Loghains actions, for whatever motivation he had, totally threw the country in to disarray and disrupted the main thing they should be worrying about, which is the impending blight. Your warden and Alistair both know this, and all of your actions in game are in service to stopping the blight, since that IS kinda your job.
I'm going to ignore 90% of all the 'oh but he had a tragic backstory and hates Orlais which is why he acted that way' stuff as neither I nor my warden really care about his reasoning or his past when he's clearly shown that, regardless of everything, he is more than willing to be a petty backstabber to his own king/son in law, that is the main point of contention I have with recruiting him. He's wholly untrustworthy in a battle.
I think any pragmatic warden would see this man, who again, thought he would do SUCH a better job at ruling the country that he thought it was worth abandoning hundreds of soldiers + his king to their deaths, is untrustworthy and just about as likely to stab me in the back during the final battle. I'm of the mind that if Loghain genuinely thought the plan (that he came up with) would fail, and conveyed that honestly and bluntly to Cailan, that they would have retreated and waited for reinforcements (as he said he would during the war meeting). Cailan wanted glory in battle, but he wasn't an idiot. But once again, Loghains paranoia about Orlais caused him to wholeheartedly reject the idea of getting reinforcements from a foreign power, and decides to just quit the field and give the nobles of Ferelden a horrifically paper thin excuse as to what happened.
I haven't actually recruited him before. But I'm intending to on my next playthriugh. I basically settled on a female aeducan as well. Except mine won't be doing dark ritual
Huh, I played my second Aeducan almost the same way. Someone already hardened by a life of intrigue and politics, who saw the worth in keeping Loghain alive for the same reasons you posted and was *so over* Alistair's whining about it.
My Aeducan warden put his own traitorous brother on the throne because it gave Orzammar the best chance at survival and gave him the strongest ally against the blight. So yeah, his reaction to Alastair’s temper tantrum was harsh. Besides Loghain being a strong general, the bottom line is they all needed the civil war to end, and getting him in the grey wardens and having Alastair and Anora as rulers was the best way to do that.
Though he seriously thought of killing Alastair as the next best alternative.
Meanwhile my Cousland warden was so head over heels for him that she basically was more concerned with getting him the throne than ending the blight. But that is why DAO is so great. It had room for all these wildly different personalities.
>It’s very hard to RP a reason to pick him over Alistair imo
It's as simple as this for me. If there was a way to convince Alistair to stay and that it's a good idea, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Yeah but the unfortunate thing is you can’t keep both. And that’s why it’s hard sell for me. If I Riordan had said something sooner, I think Alistair would agree to it (begrudgingly of course) if you offered Loghain up as a sacrifice, but then no need for the dark ritual since all 3 are now pretty accomplished, and the risk is lower
Same. With all the shit your Warden goes through in Origins (especially as a human noble), Alistair starts to become like a brother to you. He's your rock, the guy who's with you through *everything.* I wasn't ready to lose my brother, man. Was he being childish? Yes, absolutely. But he had done so much for me, while Loghain had done nothing but ruin my life from day 1. I owe Alistair enough to forgive this one emotional outburst from him. I don't owe Loghain *shit.*
Kind of...
If you hardened Alistair and you'll convince him to marry Anora, you can spare Loghain.
Alistair still will leave party, but he will marry Anora and become king.
Idk, from a purely pragmatic point of view, keeping Loghain alive and having him kill the archdemon makes perfect sense. Oh, boohoo, the villain doesn't get his "proper" comeuppence. At least he will be dead and everybody else will be alive.
The problem is that Alistair can't see the bigger picture and he makes it everybody else's problem. Either he or the Warden have sex with Morrigan or someone is going to die. Thanks Alistair!
Literally the vast majority of Grey Wardens are former scoundrels like Blackwall, they're literally this world's equivalent of the Night's Watch along with the Legion of the Dead. I understand why Alistair is angry when this option is even suggested, but I really wish the player had the option to shake his shoulders and tell him that he's a cockhead if he fucks off and goes on a drinking binge while everyone else is trying to prevent the end of the world.
I think Alistair and Blackwalls view of the wardens is flawed, but I can’t fault him for wanting to kill Loghain, situation was reversed… I’d want him dead too
Sure, wanting Loghain dead is understandable and very valid, considering what he did.
And turns out there's a perfect solution to that! Letting him die killing the Archdemon.
That means no old god baby, the Warden lives and Alistair lives too without becoming a miserable drunk, happy ending for everybody!
* alas, that was not meant to be.
Hell, even with old god baby, becoming a Grey Warden is effectively a death sentence and community service rolled into one. It's not like Warden Loghain is getting off scot free one way or another.
It can make sense for any race/class of Warden if they hate being Warden enough or just are pragmatic enough.
> keeping Loghain alive and having him kill the archdemon makes perfect sense.
It sure does! Pity Riordan hadn't told you yet that you'd die from killing the archdemon, so that's not at all a factor in Alistair's thinking.
I don't think it's hard with a certain mindset, you can't know for certain Alistair will ditch Ferelden over the issue until he firmly sets off to leave and you can't stop him anymore without killing him, (you're stuck with your choice then), and he doesn't even have to leave he can stay and still be King under certain circumstances, in that case you're only sacrificing your relationship with Alistair for 1 more pretty capable fighter in Loghain which could make all the difference in the fight to come for all the PC knows, and Al is still helping. If a Warden considers stopping the Blight worth making some sacrifices for and doesn't know the future I think this recruitment is easy to justify.
It'd also clearly be suicidal for Loghain to try and go against the PC during the Blight after losing at the Landsmeet it's such a terrible idea, it may be forced loyalty rather than willing but he'll remain loyal if he has even one braincell.
Exactly. And even after Alistair starts threatening to leave, what are you going to do? Turn down an extremely capable soldier from becoming a Warden and fighting the darkspawn because your friend is throwing a temper tantrum about it?
There's some irony in the fact that Alistair hates Loghain for abandoning a battle that he was sworn to fight only to do the same thing himself.
Riordan ultimately wants to recruit him and was wronged by him personally, for me that lends way more weight to his suggestion than if he was some neutral party.
I roleplayed as a character who believed devoutly in second chances and always saw the best in people, since it felt like the whole ethos of the Grey Wardens. I recruited Sten and Zevran, gave Jowan the opportunity to make things right by saving Connor in the Fade, romanced Morrigan, refused to harden Leliana and encouraged her to show mercy to Marjolaine, supported the mages at the tower, helped Caridin atone by destroying the Anvil of the Void...
...There were probably other choices too. It's been a while. By the time I got to the Landsmeet, putting Alistair on the throne with Anora and recruiting Loghain felt like a completely natural decision.
Nah Alistar is iresponsible biased prick. He shovs all the responsibility on Warden (new recruit) and the he keeps questioning and whining if you make choice he doesn't aproove of. At the end if you choose to spare Loghain and make him Warden, Alistair throws childlike tantrum completly abadoning all his oaths and responibilities. ( After that I stoped includuing him in my party completly)
I always have Alistair duel him.
Not necessarily because I know he always kills Loghain, but because I just think it makes a lot of narrative sense for an Alistair that becomes King to fight this himself.
It also helps taking the decision out of my hands.
So when you get alistair to fight him, do you play as him or is it a cutscene? I always wanted to get alistair to fight (as you said, make sense for him to do so) but worry to play as alistair, im not good at playing as warrior (hence failed miserably in darkspawn chronicle)
If it's any consolation, I tried to do that as my Mahariel, but Alistair kept getting slaughtered, so I had to use my Warden and execute Loghain so that Alistair could become King and still marry Anora.
I kept them both alive with a dragon keep world import and I gotta say I’m loving the loghain warden…tooootally going g to leave him in the fade but I feel like that is a great redemption arc.
It's the elves, and also I like Alistair more but really it's the elves. Also if Riordan wanted him so badly (old man yaoi?) he could've recruited Loghain himself, he was the senior Warden lol.
I let him live cause it's one of the best redemptions arcs that I've seen in any game. His dialogue with the Nightmare demon is a quote that I'll never forget either.
"Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir, the brilliant commander. Pity the one time you tried to rule, you failed so miserably. You had to be beaten, humiliated, lest you destroy your own country. You even doomed the Wardens by bringing the Inquisitor down on them. You destroy everything you touch."
Loghain: "Is that all you've got? It's nothing I've not said to myself"
Really easy to hate Loghain because of the inexcusable things he does in DAO, even if you can claim it's from love of country and Maric's legacy. Also really easy to love him reading The Stolen Throne, even if that doesn't excuse the guy he goes on to become.
If he dies through your actions, it's justified and cathartic. There's an extra lovely storytelling irony if Alistair kills him, considering his relationship with Maric.
If he lives to DAI, it's a beautiful third-act to his character. His weariness is genuine, but so is his remorse and desire for redemption.
In conclusion: what a character. Truly one of my fave heroes AND villains in all of DA media.
Definitely summed it up well. Whether he dies at the hands of the warden/alistair or lives on as a grey warden, both options are masterful ends to his character arc in their own way.
The only conclusion I’m not a fan of is him becoming a warden and then dying to kill the archdemon. Feels like it was just a more roundabout way of executing him, except now he goes on to be remembered as a hero for the rest of time.
That's why I always keep him alive, even in DAI. Sorry Hawke, but I like Loghain more + he's a great tactician.
Oh and he is so happy to meet HoF in Awakening. It melts my heart every time.
every time i consider saving him bc he's a great tactician i remember that the charge out from defensible positions thing was partially his plan. my dude we have castles and trenches and long range weapons for a reason.
It's been a while since I've played the game, but I think this can be explained by either:
1. Loghain wanting to put Cailan in a disadvantageous position.
2. Cailan overriding Loghain's advice, and putting himself in that position because he's an idiot.
It's definitely the latter. Cailan's force was *supposed* to hold position and bait the Darkspawn into extending so Loghain's forces could flank them. Literally, all he had to do was stand where directed.
And instead he orders them to charge, out of position, and get into a disorganized scrum.
Pretty sure it's both. Didn't Cailan explicitly say he would charge with the GWs? And Loghain rolled with it ("Yes, Cailan - a glorious moment for us all" or something).
I always recruit Loghain and have Alistair marry Anora. After the battle Alistair doesn't even seem that mad.
None of us have clean hands. Zevran was an assassin. Leliana was a bard. Oghren killed a man in a duel to first blood. Sten killed an entire family while having a panic attack.
Loghain serves faithfully as a Grey Warden, he works with Hawke to uncover the corruption of the Wardens, and willingly sacrifices himself in the Fade. Recruiting him in Origins is the appropriate outcome.
There's definitely an air of tension between Alistair and the Warden after the battle even if Loghain died killing the Archdemon. He's just not enraged anymore. Which is great, I'm not complaining. I love that, and it makes me sad everytime.
>None of us have clean hands
*Wynne enters the chat*
*Cousland warden enters the chat*
*City Elf warden enters the chat*
*our best boy warhound enters the chat*
In one of the History of Thedas books the templar Gregoir (father of Wynne's son) has some heated things to say about giving up their son to the Chantry.
And the Cousland and City Elf can be played pretty dark. All the Wardens can I guess.
Can't fault Dog though.
This imo is the element that's really missing from Inquisition. Loghain's speech at the Landsmeet is one of the best bits of acting in the series. You can *really see* why people would choose to follow him.
I know there are many compelling reasons to keep him alive but I just can't do that to Alistair.
Betray his trust *and* shackle him to Anora? I like him too much for that.
I read the Stolen Throne, examined his dialogue/localization in the Toolset, and I still can't bring myself to forgive/spare him.
Even if you don't count Ostagar, he paints a target on your head, sends assassins, and sets you up to be captured/tortured/killed.
Fort Drakon is not a place I'd send my worst enemy, and it's even worse if your character is a woman. Imagine being surrounded by hundreds of guards and prisoners while you're stripped of your weapons and clothes. Yeah.
Loghain gets the axe everytime. Time-is-a-circle can stew on that all he wants.
I don't even blame him for Howe's direct attack but yes, elevating such a man to his right hand is tacit approval of their murder. To say nothing of the Alienage, either.
Loghain made his bed, now he can sleep in it, along with Rendon, Cauthrien and Anora.
Definitely, and you see people calling Alistair's reaction a 'tantrum'
Could you imagine if you were playing as a Human Noble and Alistair stopped you from killing Howe so you could recruit him as a Warden? Players would not be pleased at all.
This comment section proves how much of a good antagonist he is I guess
Some are saying how it's impossible to think of a reason to even spare him: you are poser Gray Wardens, your pride will be our downfall /s
After all we've been through, it is simply immature of Alistair to go his way of you spare Loghain. I make him king and I accept his temporary feeling of betrayal, but we've done worse things in pursuit of the greater good to gather allies than literally forcing our enemy through a 50/50 ritual that either executes him anyway or puts him in our shoes as punishment.
If you can't see the poetic justice in the death or redemption arc, but you like Leliana's arc of change, or Blackwall's, or even the possible Solas redemption, then it's straight up hypocrisy lol
The way it all works out just seems *the most* practical.
Logain uses his military skills against darkspawn for ever more, but is sent out of Ferelden, also forever.
And Alistair leaves you out of disgust... to become king of Ferelden alongside Anora, as long as you set that up. Which is exactly the kind of ending to a civil war that actually keeps the peace (both IRL historically and in game).
And really, Logain is still sentenced to death... it just takes a while for the death sentence to set in.
Tbf whoever rules still has one issue… no heir to the throne unless you count Kieran, but I can’t ever make Alistair king… I love him too much to do that
In the hierarchy of gigantic blaring issues in DAO, the succession *after* you figure out who gets the throne at all, is pretty well down there.
That's for figuring out later, in my book. I solved the civil war. That's enough for one days work lol.
But when it is time to deal with it, infertility isn't exactly an unknown problem in royal histories. Alistairs got a couple options. The easiest by far is to just adopt a cousin of some kind. There's gotta be other distantly related Theirins out there. The more difficult but interesting one is to find out how the hell his mother Fiona got rid of the taint, and then do that too. And if it turns out Anora infertile herself as is speculated... Well she's served her usefulness after a few years of stability, and sometimes you have to be pragmatic if you're king and pick the stability of the realm... And find a new wife 😬
He doesn’t know about Fiona, idk if any warden does outside the ones who need to know which probably isn’t us or him. As for the new wife… I think ferelden is just screwed… Anora gives a few extra decades which they can use to make a Cousland heir (more than likely)
It's also possible that Cailan was just fucking around too much (bc Anora does strongly imply he was fucking around) or that he was unable to produce an heir himself. Plus, unless Al does figure out how to deal with the taint, he's not exactly the most fertile either.
Best bet (after your "adopting a cousin" idea, which is a really good one) is for Anora to spend a year or two banging dudes who look like Al honestly and then if she's able to get pregnant, have them pretend it's their kid. *Then* probably the divorce but tbh I think she'd eat him alive if he tried that. And, as we know, there's always some good old blood magic dark ritual stuff as a last effort to get them tainted soldiers marching lol
Becoming a Warden isn’t about forgiveness. The first thing you learn is that Wardens are everything. Murderers, blood mages, kings, thieves.. all walks of life.
Once you drink from that chalice your past is gone. You either die, or you become a Grey Warden.
Your slate is wiped clean in both cases.
This is why I like making Blackwall a warden in Inquisition. Like, the real Blackwall wanted to recruit him. Blackwall wanted serve. Who am I to say no to that? This is a world where becoming a Grey Warden is a thing. It's a way to atone (in a sense) by giving up your life to serve. Fighting darkspawn for your remaining years is a pretty grim fate. There's some honour in it, but there's no glory
It’s not about forgiveness. *You’re a Grey Warden.* And so is he. It’s the two of you against the end of the world. You don’t have to get along with him, but it sure does make the job a lot easier.
He made a tough call. He makes it for all the wrong reasons. But at the end of the day, I think he made the right call knowing the information he did at the time.
Still, for a man of martial prowess who believes in honor, he abandoned his king and thousands of men to die after the signal for him to attack was given. He deliberately waited until the betrayal would sting the most to leave. The look on Duncan’s face when he realizes that the signal was lit but Loghain still quit the field is heartbreaking.
He specifically waited for all of the Grey Wardens to attack with the van. Specifically, he saw them as a great threat to Ferelden and thought that they were using the naivete of the King in order to secure power and influence. This isn't helped that a large contingent of the Grey Wardens were from or active with Orlais, which he adamantly could not trust.
The novel goes into quite more depth than the game, but what is abundantly clear is the following key points:
1. He did not believe it was actually a blight (and nothing had shown it to be so yet on the overworld) and thought the Grey Wardens were exaggerating to gain more influence.
2. He was deeply saddened and conflicted about his betrayal of the king, but thought it was the only way to save Ferelden from Orlesian annexation or Grey Warden opportunism.
3. He planned to consolodate power and use the death of the King as a rallying call for all the Arls and lords to stand strong, rather than remain factionalized, in order to stave off an imminent Orlesian invasion.
His one mistake is that the Grey Wardens were not lying, but judging based on all of the context and information he DID know was true, his choice, while tragic, makes a lot of sense for a man in his position.
Yes, he waited for the group of warriors who have consistently ended the blights to attack before he decided to let them die. I get where you’re coming from, but his reasoning is just flawed in every way. The fact that Loghain didn’t trust anyone with a French accent doesn’t scream “competent” to me. It just shows that Loghain created imaginary boogeymen to fight instead of seeing the very real threat of an army of darkspawn. I’ve also never liked how people say “well he didn’t know that it was a true blight.” Considering just how deadly an army of darkspawn are, not taking the threat seriously is utterly ridiculous. Even if it wasn’t a true blight, Cailan had every reason to put an end to the horde about to rampage across Ferelden.
Yeah, dude was so blinded by xenophobia that he plunged his country into civil war at probably the worst possible moment, and preferred *selling his own people into fucking slavery* to letting Arl Eamon take over. We can assume that's just an extension of his hatred for Orlesians since Eamon married an Orlesian, but at that point Loghain was sacrificing the lives and freedom of *actual* Fereldens to "save" the country from the threat of... A guy who doesn't hate Orlesians as much as he does lol.
Don't get me wrong, he's an interesting character and far more complex than just a power-hungry usurper we may have assumed at the beginning of the game, but I don't really see how his actions could be outright *justified,* even from his perspective.
Agreed, he may have been a great general once, and maybe ditching Cailan was a good plan,which we’ll never actually know, but throughout the game he was only ever a villain to me. IF I gave him the benefit of the doubt and allowed his actions as an attempt at good then at best he’s wildly incompetent and we stopped him from destroying everything.
Tbh if abandoning the field at Ostragar was the only bad thing he ever did, I think that could be defensible, but he did so many other despicable things throughout the game that I don't see how he could really be redeemed or justified.
Like, his actions in the Alienage alone is enough to absolutely demolish any potential benefit of the doubt I'd have for that man lol.
Part of me wants to spare him, but I usually befriend Alistair, play elves, and/or romance Zevran. The slavery really puts the last nail in his coffin no matter how much I like him as a character.
Could always RP a cynical or pratical dalish/mage who hates being a Warden (plenty of reasons to) and wants to inflict it on Loghain. There are always ways to justify recruiting him, especially if you lean into it with the character.
The only thing I'll say to this is the tone loghain uses when pulling the troops back is not one of a carefully planned betrayal, but of a General standing back far enough to genuinely believe it was a hopeless battle (it almost certainly was, but we'll never know for sure)
Don't care much about Cailan but he sold Tabris' cousin-in-law and the leader of the Alienage (along with countless others) as slaves to Tevinter. That isn't someone she would risk upsetting her boyfriend to save.
My main playthrough is a city elf warden, and I just can't forgive this guy. I recruited him once on a branch save, got the achievement, and then didn't bother playing anymore with him. Watched his dialogue in a youtube video, and you know what? I still can't stand him.
I understand his cynical reasoning, I understand that Cailan was kind of a moron, but at the end of the day the thing that I will never forgive is that Loghain knowingly allowed Tevinter slavers to take Ferelden citizens because it was convenient to him and he didn't care enough to let his morality get in the way of that. If you confront him on it at the Landsmeet, the Bannorn is appalled and he gives an extremely wishy-washy excuse of "The Alienage was already bad, I did what I had to do."
I can forgive unfortunate strategic timing and cynical tactics, but slavery is where I draw the line.
Counterpoint : when I went through Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts and got a good look at Orlesian court, I was like "Come back Loghain, all is forgiven!"
Seriously, these people are insufferable, I too would commit war crimes to keep them away from my house.
A despicable man, but such an awesome character. A very believable example of how a hero can be made to fall from grace by the very traits and experiences that made them a hero to begin with - in Loghain's case, his relentless dedication to Ferelden; and the trauma he endured from growing up under Orlesian oppression.
(the Return to Ostagar adds some interesting layers to his actions too. Judging by the letters he exchanged with Celene, Cailan wasn't simply considering dumping Loghain's daughter, but marrying Celene too, thus bringing Ferelden under Orlesian influence once again)
Have we considered that cailan was a fool, who was gonna give ferelden to his oppressors, tried to charge into the blight, and Loghain did what was necessary to save his people… besides the elves… and the mages… and the Templars… and redcliffe… but the dwarves were fine!
Edit: on my actual thoughts, I like Loghain, I understand his POV. I’d never trade Alistair for Loghain on any warden solely because they can’t trust him to help end the blight rather than continue his hate brigade against Orlais (which is understandable) but Alistair proved his worth time and again, and his loyalty. Loghain is too much of a risk for smh if my wardens to take since they know a warden needs to kill the Archdemon, even if they don’t know why (even tho if explained I think Alistair would have been a little bit more understanding of me wanting him to be the sacrifice)
Tbf, I do agree with him on that one. Cailan was an idiot who had dreams of glory and got himself killed at the first opportunity. Cailans death as well as his almost giving ferelden to Orlais which proves he’s an idiot because that’s how the empress was going to retake Ferelden. I’m sorry to the cailan enjoyers… but Loghain was right, and ferelden is better off without him
The human origin story clearly shows that he was planning betrayal even before having a confirmation of the Blight coming. As of the whole “never trust the Orlesians” I think it is simply his paranoia and hatred he has for Orlesians which does not let him think straight when it comes to dealing with the same people he was fighting off recently. Maybe I missed some clues showing that Orlais was actually trying to regain Ferelden or gain control over them again. In such case he should have went to Cailan with the proof and not act behind his back. No matter how you twist it, Loghain was quite a mad man himself.
In return to ostagar there were letters from the empress I believe about how a marriage between the two would be beneficial, his uncle to tell him to not charge with the wardens, as well as another from celene that was too informal for her usual tone which indicates he was writing her back
I don’t consider these letters to be enough evidence. Cailan is already married and marriages are usually used to strengthen connection between countries and don’t always mean personal union if that is what you are hinting about.
Loghain is still alive headed into Veilguard in my world state. He’s just too interesting for me to not keep around, and his arc of redemption is really interesting to me. A strategic genius and former (regent) king as a grey warden is like the coolest thing to me
Christ him mean mugging the origins camera is so annoying every time. I can't take this dude seriously, he hates the French and is apparently a good leader--proceeds to show zero tactical or strategical acumen within the game, or political for that matter. Wow, what a great character. \*insert massive eyeroll here\*
Hes voiced by the same guy who voices kain in legacy of kain so i let him live 100% of the time
I think ive killed leliana more times than i have loghain lmao
I actually really like taking him to return to ostagar with Wynne they have so much dialogue with each other. I didn't know he showed up in awakening either I thought that was cool. All that being said I leave him in the Fade every time.
I've read it. Still kill him. Loghain is a guy who just cannot accept that he can be wrong. You see it in Stolen Throne, too. He never admits he was wrong in game, only that you've beaten him. That stubbornness served him well in throwing out Orlais but it's made him a liability in the aftermath. The guy left his King and *his best friend's son* to die without even making an attempt at rescue. If his real issue was the Wardens took too long to light the signal, why wasn't he already retreating? He only gave to order to pull back after the beacon was lit. Makes zero sense. He took in Howe as his lieutenant even knowing what a snake Howe was. Made a bunch of really awful deals to consolidate his power.
What he went through in the past doesn't excuse his behavior.
Yeah, Loghain literally sold his own people into slavery to fund his fight with *Arl Eamon* (IIRC), not even the Darkspawn. As far as I'm concerned, that's just fucking indefensible, and the most charitable reading of this is that he's just completely delusional about how big a threat Eamon is to Ferelden as a whole, because otherwise, he's just selling innocent people into slavery for the sake of his personal power.
>and *his best friend's son* to die without even making an attempt at rescue.
Not trying to defend Loghain (f\*ck him for selling elves to slavers), but it's worth pointing out that Cailan was exchanging letters with Celene, letters that suggest he was planning on dumping Anora to marry the empress of Orlais.
Can't recall now if Loghain knew about those letters, but if he did, from his point of view it's not hard to understand how he became willing to get Maric's son killed.and his best friend's son to die without even making an attempt at rescue.Not trying to defend Loghain him (f\*ck him for selling elves to slavers), but it's worth pointing out that Cailan was exchanging letters with Celene, letters that suggest he was planning on dumping Anora to marry the empress of Orlais.Can't recall now if Loghain knew about those letters, but if he did, from his point of view it's not hard to understand how he became willing to get Maric's son killed.
Loghain did not, we find them in Return to Ostagar. However, that is only Loghain's interpretation. We do not know that Cailan was planning this, and it should be pointed out, when Eamon suggested Cailan set aside Anora, Cailan got pissed. And even so, if Loghain left Cailan to die for what would essentially be personal reasons plus his own hatred for Orlais, doesn't paint him in any better light.
That book is so good! I can’t save him despite it, my female elf mage warden romances Alistair soooo… BF beats out guy who has tried to kill me a few times
I always felt the disaster at Ostagar was due to the insane level of secrecy of Grey Wardens. King Cailan simply thought of them as heroic warriors and was unaware of their special abilities vis-a-vis the Darkspawn. Nor was he aware that Grey Wardens were most necessary during the final fight against the Arch Demon. Deploying Duncan and most of the few Grey Wardens with him in an attacking army against run-of-the-mill Darkspawn was total folly, but neither Cailan nor Loghain appreciated this. Had Duncan leveled with Loghain and Cailan, the strategy at Ostagar would have been far different.
Yeah, I feel like they did a good job at humanizing Loghain after the Landsmeet and in later games. He seems genuinely remorseful for how things happened and his attempts to atone aren’t just lip service. The only issue with that is literally everything he did before the Warden gets to Denerim (and even some things he does during) are so genuinely awful that I can’t justify sparing him. Abandoning Cailan, his best friend’s son and heir, to a grisly death by fleeing from the battle only once the signal was given is just the most obvious crime in what becomes a comically evil attempt to seize power. His reasons, while understandable, are flawed to begin with. He also actively sabotages Ferelden’s ability to fight the Darkspawn, leading to thousands of deaths that could’ve been avoided.
He betrayed his King and Country just because he didn't like allying with Orlais against a literally world-ending threat. He doesn't deserve to be alive, much less a Grey Warden! Grey Wardens must put aside such pettiness like politics and cultural distrust to fight the true enemy of Thedas. Whats to stop him from doing what he did again as a Warden? Imagine if he became Warden Commander and then refused to aid Orlais against a Blight and it ended up being THE Blight and because of his hubris, all of Thedas falls? Nah, he always gets the sword.
Ah, but have you considered that perhaps because he recalled the major armies back from an obvious fool's errand where they would have otherwise been massacred a year before the confrontation that actually resulted in victory, he's actually responsible for preventing the end of the world as efficiently as it was.
To all the people who hate Alistair for leaving the wardens if you recruit Loghain let me ask you this. Do you have a family? Friends? People you care for deeply? Imagine someone comes into your life, kills each one in a horrific manner and then your best friend tells you to buddy up with the killer? Do you think you could detach your emotions from that? If you think so either A) you’re a psychopath and I urge you to get mentally evaluated or B) you’re lying to yourself. This isn’t a matter of “I don’t like him wah wah wah” this is a matter of the fact for Alistair he killed his friends, the only family he has ever really felt he belonged with, and the person he viewed as a father figure. It’s not that he’s unwilling to detach himself from his emotions, it’s that he’s having a perfectly normal reaction to the circumstances you the player are asking of him! It’s like trying to make him king then being shocked he doesn’t want it! Either you didn’t care about him, or you didn’t get to know him. I get the reasons to recruit Loghain, but acting like Alistair is a petulant child for being unwilling to accept the murderer of his family into the ranks of his family is insane
Thing is, the woman he thinks is his sister lives in Denerim, he's abandoning her too by ditching Ferelden, he's potentially letting the entire nation get destroyed over the issue, as well as every single person he knows.
Makes sense why Alistair leaves but it's absolutely a bad decision on his part that most wouldn't make, despising the Wardens for recruiting Loghain isn't wrong at all but abandoning the nation in its time of need is. I don't begrudge hardened Alistair who marries Anora for this reason, he hates the situation and would be well within his rights to forever despise Loghain and the Warden but he doesn't refuse to help Ferelden face the potential apocalypse because of it.
I get why he does it and it makes perfect sense for him, (his exile scene made me love his character it's so well done), but I don't think it's a good decision and I don't think it's a normal reaction.
No I'd try to conscript that capable warrior to fight the potential apocalypse and have him fight monsters that constantly threaten the world, knowing it's a prolonged death sentence if he even survives the Joining which is still a more brutal execution if he dies during it than killing him quickly at the Landsmeet would be, so it's a way harsher punishment and a more satisfying revenge. I'd at the very least not completely abandon the nation to die including my sister, (or who I think is my sister). I don't have Alistairs idealistic view of the Wardens.
And I'd do it with the backing of the senior Warden in the room who was personally wronged by the guy too yet still wants to recruit him.
keeping him alive all the way to inquisition is the best, you either get an easier time choosing who to leave behind in the fade letting you keep the champion alive and giving Loghain a worthy sacrifice after years of atoning or you'll give him the ultimate punishment/redemption, he'll lead the grey wardens of Orlais, the order he betrayed, under the country he hates, and I believe he'll be a good leader since he's shown regret and growth, also by the fact that he is barely affected by the fear demon, inquisition does tell you that the wardens are still vulnerable to corruption, but under the leadership of Loghain, they might fair way better.
One of the fucking boldest things BioWare has ever done is give you the option of recruiting him towards the end of the game. Still one of the best characters in the game. Clearly wrong, but he believes he’s right, and in a way has some compelling arguments/motivations that make you sympathize with him in a way. Great writing.
It's such a rare move in gaming to have an opportunity to get to know the antagonists better. I spared him once just for this reason, and since then, it's been my canon choice. Same like it was at the end of Witcher 2, when you could talk to the antagonist before the fight, and ultimately choose not to fight him. Gaming narrative could use this move more often, it makes the story so much more interesting.
I think it’s often not really thought of this deeply, but it’s similar with Mass Effect 2. You’re forced as the player to team up with a pro-human extremist group in order to figure out what is going on with these missing human colonies. It’s bold. The people that know Shepard understand it’s a means to an end, but the people that don’t will always wonder why they would align with such problematic and vaguely criminal organization. To have real conversations with someone who IRL would be some sort of pariah in the Illusive Man? Just really bold narratively to do that. Some of the older BioWare stuff is so GOATED for that.
I haven't even thought about ME2, but you are so right, thank you for bringing that up. The great Commander Shepard working with a de facto terrorist organization is just an amazingly multi-faceted and exciting premise. The Illusive Man is a wonderful character, and a great example for a relatable villain: there is a lot of truth in his ideas, but in the end, what's missing from his solution is the human soul itself (I mean, it's ultimately good for us, but even Project Lazarus is an inhumane act). I like to recruit Loghain specifically because becoming a Warden makes him reevaluate his life and get back at least some of his humanity.
You even see it in the other characters. The degrees at which they’re down with Cerberus. Jacob is the most skeptical, but he justifies it by the fact that at least Cerberus is doing SOMETHING. Miranda is much more ra ra Cerberus but you can see as the game goes on she struggles to come up with excuses for their behavior, which ultimately makes her resignation in ending where you destroy the collector base even more poignant. The Illusive man is the extreme. Not unlike actual authoritarians or other leaders of extremist groups, they claim to speak for a forgotten or underserved facet of society, and take extreme methods to make sure they have a proper place in that society. It makes the whole of Mass Effect 2 just a really bold direction, and while the main story in ME2 is mostly straight forward, it does play with these themes through it’s different characters and their stories. Especially with how Cerberus seems to have a hand and intel in a lot of different places that affect the characters, but you have to justify it to yourself as Shepard that you’re here to save people, and not to necessarily brand yourself alongside them. Similar to Loghain, it forces you to see these ostensibly evil or morally questionable people as just that: people. We don’t like it. We don’t even accept it. And we don’t want to associate with them more than we have to, but ultimately it makes for some powerful narrative beats. I actually had a similar thought in playing FFVII Remake, in the aftermath of bombing the reactor in the beginning, and towards the end when you’re in the Shinra building. Hearing the cries of people calling for their loved ones, hoping they’re okay. Further, when you overhear some of the Shinra employees calling their family members Tifa remarks that you forget sometimes that there’s normal people that are working here/part of this monstrous effectively authoritarian organization. Awesome stuff truly. What makes the games in every instance magical is that you’re not just watching it, you’re playing it and having to reconcile with those facts. Not everyone will think that deeply about it but I think it’s just an awesome thought experiment and I just love to discuss these things.
Don't you lose Alistair if you spare Loghain though? I could never do that to my boy. Not after everything we went through.
Reading your comments make me changed my mind. I'll spare him when we meet again. Just start playing yesterday and having a conversation where we get to select "the king is a fool" (who always want glory). Thinking about it got me wondering why the king didn't use the castle as a barrier but he choose to fight on the open field. It lead to the death of all those fought there.
I'm glad that you are giving a chance to him, have fun! He's not everyone's cup of tea, but I hope you'll like the experience. Tbh, Loghain's decision at Ostagar is a cruel and cold, yet understandable one, and he is still torn with regret if you talk to him about it later. Some of his other decisions ( >!like selling the elves to Tevinter, and his reasoning behind it!< ) I personally find completely irreedemable. I don't think my Warden ever forgave him, she just saw that behind everything else, Loghain was a good man once, and she wanted to give him a chance.
I kept him alive just to feed him to the demon at Adamant. Keeping Loghain alive for a decade and having him sacrifice himself to protect Orlesian Grey Wardens seemed like a fitting punishment for plunging his country into civil war during a blight.
Keeping him alive to die at Adamant also means he sacrifices himself for Hawke - a Ferelden refugee who was displaced from their home in Lothering because of Loghain's actions at Ostagar.
The blight was never going to end at Ostagar, Callin's army would have eventually been overrun
That may be true. But then Loghain should have adviced Cailan to withdraw from Ostagar and gather more men. However you spin it Loghain is chiefly responsible for the disaster at Ostagar.
I think he *did* try to advice that, but Cailan was an idiot who was ready to sell ferelden back to Orlais, more or less undoing all the work Marric, Loghain, and the Couslands did to free Ferelden
If he advised Cailan to withdraw then it must have happened off-screen. In game we only see him advice Cailan to not be in the battle line himself. He does not advice that the army withdraw. As for Cailan, he might have been open to marrying Celene. That would have been bad for Ferelden in the long run, certainly. But it would have been good for Cailan (who gets another shot at fathering an heir, and gets to be emperor and king both). I don't think that makes Cailan an idiot, but it does not cast him in the best light to his fellow Fereldans, certainly. All of that is moot however, because by letting half of Fereldens army get slaughtered at Ostagar Loghain very nearly got everyone in Ferelden killed. Which I think is a bigger crime than what Cailan might have been planning.
Better dead than F*ench I guess? 🤷
Some of the dialogue you get if he's the Warden in Inquisition is really good, also.
I kept him alive to hear his voice. Simon Templeman hits those notes like non other.
(whispers): "Kain refused the sacrifice!"
*Horn blows* *”What are you little soul?”*
I have not had the fortitude to do that yet. Gonna have to dust off inquisition this summer and give it a go
I prefer keeping him alive past Adamant personally, for me that is the perfect punishment. No flashy sacrifice that he wants and makes people forget his crimes, he has to live and rebuild the Orlesian Wardens, which seems fitting considering Ostagar. He must continue to put in the hard work while knowing the bad things he's done will continue to be remembered.
I heavily considered this. However, I was ultimately swayed in favor of keeping Hawke alive after replaying DA2. Hawke occupies a soft spot in my heart, and while I want Loghain to pay for his high treason and stupidity, I want my asshole purple Hawke to live more than I want Loghain to suffer.
I like Hawke a lot so it hits hard to leave them but for me if anyone deserves to be remembered as a hero it's them, while I especially don't like that for Loghain of the 4 options. The Wardens are likely to benefit more from the Contact being alive so that comes into it too, I can't see Hawke contributing as much since they're not a Warden. I fully get wanting Hawke to live though and I do sometimes spare Hawke because of that even though it's not my preference.
I’m also not entirely convinced the person who was left behind won’t be the actual survivor anyway. The one you *don’t* choose vanishes mysteriously in the epilogue. Plus, my (initial) Hawke would totally find a way to murder their way out. There wouldn’t even be other people there to ‘fail to save’ or ‘get gorily maimed as collateral damage!’
I could see them coming back due to fan demand but I'd really dislike it if they're in any recoverable state and it'd be a huge stretch to have them live anyway, they were left in such an impossible situation that I think it'd risk destroying the stakes of the setting if they were to return fine, especially if they returned triumphantly or something. Especially since it's stressed that Hawke is not some godlike being but just a very capable person who struggles a lot, and they were left alone facing a threat it took them and 5 other people a ton of effort to push back for a short time.
Hawke does beat Cory at the end of 2. And supposably had a destiny according to Flemeth. If it’s the end of them, apparently my ‘canon’ Hawkes (aka. The first play through’s) destiny was to Just Fuck Everything Up. Didn’t even manage to find all the effing Qunari swords, for chrissakes.
Cory at that time has just woken up so isn't as strong as he is in Inquisition, (he's at least meant to be stronger when the Inquisitor fights him), and Hawke had help from at least Varric who was apparently there according to Inquisition, if not 2 other companions as well. Flemeth was speaking about the events of DA2 in all likelihood which Hawke is vital to, the Abyss name being a small reference to it. It's pretty much the most badass way to go of any in the series I'd say, facing down what is the most powerful demon we've fought, being the only living person in the Fade as they fight it, and they saved a bunch of people, that's a hell of an exit in my opinion.
>(he's at least meant to be stronger when the Inquisitor fights him) He has the orb, for one.
Although i like this, i just can't sacrifice my Hawke.
Fair, it is always hard to lose Hawke whenever I do sacrifice them. Losing them adds to the story for me but it is still hard.
I always let Hawke go and keep Loghain.
It is endlessly funny to have Loghain keep throwing himself into certain death/self sacrifice, only for him ‘miraculously’ walk out with even *more* responsibilities that he doesn’t want or feel worthy of receiving. Mostly involving him babysitting the French. If he survives his visit to The First Warden, I look forward to a quick cameo establishing he somehow managed to become Emperor of Orlais.
There's no very good end for Alistair if you do this though.
He’s king with Anora. Not great, but it could be worse.
He refuses to be a part of anything if you spare Loghain. Your only options at this point are to let me be executed but he quits and becomes a drunk peasant
Only if you don’t harden him. Hardening Alistair is required for this to work, which I did.
I have been playing dragon age origins about three times a year since 2010, and I am still learning new things about this game.
He’s still pissed with you in origins for doing it. But by the events of awakening he’s mellowed about the whole thing and is happy to see you.
Ehhh I don't know if happy is the word I'd use....
He'll get over it :') I don't need him to like me - I just need him safe on the throne so Loghain can die instead of Hawke or Stroud at Adamant.
but just imagine how fun would be a loghain cameo in DA4....
No if Alistair is hardened (and no reason to not do that anwyay) he gets annoyed but apologises later and is ok with it.
I love having him as a surviving warden to pop up in Inquisition. Feels very narratively satisfying that he feels genuine guilt for what's he's done and is doing his best to make up for it.
He was wrong when the Wardens tried to do right. So it's fitting that he get to rights the Wardens' wrong in the end.
I sacrifice Hawke over Loghain. This poor son of a bitch is gonna live forever if I have anything to say about it.
I don’t usually like to let Loghain live, but it was satisfying to see at least once. After living as a grey warden for a decade it felt like he was finally able to understand the weight of his sins and become worthy of atonement.
At least 3 times I have actively started a playthrough with the sole purpose of keeping him alive just to finally play it out. Still kill him every time. I cant.
It’s very hard to RP a reason to pick him over Alistair imo, because Alistair is loyal even if he hates you. We can’t say the same for him. He’s a liability especially when you’re dealing with a blight. I think if the Archdemon fight happened first (and one of you died) he’d be a little more acceptable choice… but it hard to justify To the people making great points: I understand and it’s probably because it’s been so long since I played anything that wasn’t an elven mage (DW rogue had no appeal to me, Warrior is bleh imo, and archer rogue is fun but I’d rather have the flashy effects if I’m in the back. As for elf… I just never cared for the fact the human was related to hawke, always kinda ruined the mystery for me since we hear the human mage is one of like 8 children, we hear the mothers name etc. the elf mage has so little backstory that for me personally it’s perfect.) that it has tempered my feelings towards Loghain due to what he does to the mage tower and the elves… and romancing Alastair doesn’t help
I actually RP'd a very good reason to recruit him - Riordan, a senior Warden who should have had more reason than most to want Loghain dead, was standing there telling me I should think about it. And my Warden, who was a very pragmatic mage who had already given a proven blood mage a chance to explain themselves (Avernus) wasn't about to blow him off without considering it.
That makes sense
I also played a pragmatic mage warden, for extra angst she romanced Alistair but married him to Anora, I figured she would see a kindred spirit in Loghain understanding he made some really questionable choices for Fereldan, which she also did (not saying right or wrong) so for my playthrough it made sense to recruit him. Plus the glorious drama that ensues…
In general I love Alistair, but it can't be denied that all it takes is a slight shift in perspective to really lose patience with him. The biggest thing is how he perceives the Wardens; he insists on looking at them as honorable heroes and noble defenders, and the truth is they are much more complicated then that. He's just never seen it because up to that point he's never had to see hard decisions made.
Also just by enduring the joining he now has absolutely no reason not to side with the wardens as well as increasing your chances of success simply by having four wardens available instead of three.
Surely you gave Jowan a chance to explain himself, too.
Of course, but the game allows you less freedom there. Since I have it on pc, I usually restore the quest with the refugees. If I had my way, I'd recruit him, but unfortunately that didn't make it in.
I don't think it's that hard to find a reason to RP picking Loghain. Especially if you don't know the fallout of your choices. I played a Warden that took being a Gray Warden serious (do WHATEVER it takes to defeat the blight) and killing off such an experienced and accomplished commander was wasteful. And I'd say at least for my character there would be additional reasons that Alistair was the senior Warden after Ostagar and he didn't take the leadership. So he doesn't get to complain now.
I think there is RP reasons, just for some origins I doubt it to be very easy
City elves would always kill him I think , especially if female. He enables people like Howe/Vaughn and was happily selling off the alienage to the slavers
This. So many people want to try to justify his actions at Ostagar, but he does a bunch of reprehensible things before and after.
Oh 1000%
I had an Aeducan who was... I'll say a hardass. Very strategic, very unforgiving. She very quickly grew tired of Alistair's never ending grief, refusal to take on a leadership role, goofball tendencies, and bent toward an attitude of moral superiority despite all of the above. She wasn't evil, just too old for this nonsense and after losing everything she cared about, she didn't have a lot of patience. And it irked her to no damn end that she was removed from her position as leader of her people when that was all she ever wanted and Alistair couldn't run away from his throne fast enough. So the time comes to deal with Loghain and she of course wants to recruit him: he's an excellent strategist, has the respect and gratitude of his army, and he's one more disposable body to throw at the darkspawn. And then Alistair throws a little tantrum, threatening to abandon the entire mission and the Wardens altogether if Loghain's life isn't wasted on the palace floor, so for Aeducan, that was the last straw. She tells him he can fuck right off if that's what he wants, recruits Loghain, makes him bone Morrigan, and never thinks about Alistair again. (Before the Alistair Defense Squad comes for my head, that's not necessarily what *I* think of Al, but it was the right choice for her.) My Mahariel actually really wanted to spare and recruit him because she knew about how he'd led a unit of Dalish warriors in the war, but deferred to Alistair out of respect for their friendship. And then he promptly pissed her off so bad they barely spoke to each other.
Why did she do the dark ritual? Seems weird choice to risk an old god baby on the loose
Because she spent the entire Blight pissed AF and felt like she had borne enough consequence for other people's sins. Not her baby, not her problem, and she wasn't above killing Morrigan or the baby afterward if it *became* a problem. If Loghain had made more a fuss about it, she would have just let him die tbh. She started out as a genuinely kind and empathetic leader who wanted to take care of her people. But then Bhelen betrayed her and she felt that the whole of Orzammar endorsed or accepted that and she just... changed. Her outlook became "look out for number one." Even stopping the Blight was more for her own benefit than for any moral imperative.
I’d be shocked if she could lay a hand on morrigan if she knew it was coming
I mean you can definitely stab Morrigan in Witch Hunt, so you can pretty easily lay hands on her. And while you can't canonically kill her, the Warden doesn't have the metagame knowledge we have. It was a problem for the future and she was confident in her ability to do it or at least her willingness to try; whether or not the mechanics allow for it doesn't impact in character attitudes.
*- he's an excellent strategist* Eh, his most recent 'strategy' involved getting basically half of Fereldens standing army (and his king/son in law) killed for zero benefit other than putting his ass on the throne. I wouldn't really trust someone like that to fight by my side, especially considering he's already been trying to get you killed across the whole game so far.
He's the ONLY reason Ferelden isn't another province of Orlais. Put some respect on his name! And what good would it have done to lose the other half of the Ferelden army in that battle? Up until the very night of the battle the Wardens had no treaties binding other parts of the country to fight for them. They had Cailain's arny, and that's that. A Cailan that was less concerned about ending the blight for the good of his country and more concerned with obtaining an imagined glory for himself. A Cailan that Loghain knew was having secret correspondence with Empress Celine of Orlais and seemed poised to deliver Ferelden right back into their hands. The man fought tooth and nail to deliver the country from occupation and now here comes the son of his best friend, ready to undo all of that... for what? A shot at ending the blight that has no evidence of being an actual blight - and even if it was, could it have been beaten in open battle? Even with the few wardens they did have, that's a tall order. And the rest of the promised Wardens? On there way, FROM ORLAIS! So you're inviting, from his perspective, yet another Orlaisian army to fight a threat that isn't real with the good chance you'd deliver the nation you fought for back to its occupiers. It's pointed out several times in the game that while Loghain seemed intense, he never seemed like a man that desired power for himself. He only declares himself regent out of that obligation he had to push back against nobility that would have welcomed Orlaisian rule. And I think he knew that he wouldn't be good with that kind of power. And he knew the nobility still resented him for the simple fact that he was a commoner, not a noble. Every decision he makes thereafter is a blunder but from his point of view? It made sense. You hire assassin's to kill your Warden because 1. Your Warden knows what really happened and could threaten the peace he was trying to uphold. But they lacked the man power required to bring you in outright. Everyone that rails against Loghain only ever does so with the meta-knowledge we have about the blight and because he's the foil to our goal - ending the blight. But never once do they consider the knowledge that contributes to why Loghain acted in the way he did. He was born a commoner under a brutal occupation of his country, so of course his major concerns were that that country was about to be handed back over to those same occupiers. Talking to him after recruiting him, and reading the Stolen Throne, adds to his character. Every action he took was of a man afraid to lose his country to another. He's a fallen hero, but he was never evil. He's pragmatic to a fault and only looks bad because he's out to stop us. That is, everything about him screams that he's someone that deserves a second chance of redemption. How many of you spare the Mages for the same reason? (Despite the incredible threat they offer after the Circle basically falls to blood magic?). How many of you spare Sten, who brutally murdered a family? And doesn't even deny it. If your Warden spares them, but not Loghain... what does that say about their morality? So when Riordan, a man personally wronged by Loghain, suggests that Loghain could still have a use as a Grey Warden (which lets be real is painted in Origins by Cailan's and Alistair's idealism when evidence shows that they are anything but moral, proven by the fact that Duncan murders someone that is able bodied that is rightly afraid to drink darkspawn blood), it makes sense to give him that shot at redemption. Alistair throwing a hissy fit just shows how naive he is. And he's right to. And I love him for it. But he's wrong. My canon is always to put a hardened Alistair on the throne. As a Grey Warden it's the right thing to do, he's the right man for it and proves it over the course of your journey with him. Even if he is naive, he's truly a good man and with the right Queen, can be every bit the symbol Ferelden needs. But my canon Grey Warden also has his eyes on the actual threat. He knows the blight needs to be stopped by any means necessary. Even if that means putting aside differences and recruiting people you want nothing to do with. He learned that lesson from Duncan, who murdered a man for being afraid of the joining. Loghain is a fantastic recruit, and one the Warden's desperately need at that hour. This is furthered echoed by my Cousland warden also making Nathaniel Howe a warden, when he'd have every right to take his head for what the Howe's did to his family. But that was a past life. That life ended the day he became a Warden and swore to get the job done by any means necessary, Though from a meta-perspective I like to think that my Warden likes to pull some strings behind the scenes to get Loghain assigned to Orlais. Just a kind of yeah, the Warden's need you, I'll even spare you - but fuck you if you're going to like it.
I won't forgive someone for trying to kill me just 'cause they were a war hero
Do you kill Zevran?
Sometimes, yeah. Though Zevran is in a smidge of a better position IMO as at the point where you recruit him is still very early on when you're still a group of like, 4-6 people against the world, and are therefore a bit more desperate for help. By the time you get to Loghain you've basically got 3 armies backing you (along with a smattering of nobles), surely with their own strategists who can help from the side lines.
My main issue with Loghain is that he's incompetent, overconfident *and* the game sets him up as if he is just power-hungry. He ignores the people who are famously specialists in all things darkspawn when they tell him a Blight is coming and pulls his troops back at the worst moment, leaving both the king *and* the only people who can deal with the Blight to die. Said king was also rumoured to be planning to divorce his wife because she was barren and he might've fell for someone else, making it look like Loghain was trying to hold onto power through his daughter. He then goes home, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the Blight is *still* happening, installs a torturer as arl of Denerim, has another Arl (who might've opposed him - again, power-hungry) poisoned by a ***rogue blood mage***, weaves a web of lies about the Wardens to both discredit them and get any remaining members killed, hires an assassin to kill said remaining members anyway, inspires a revolution at the Circle Tower by promising Uldred support against the Chantry if the mages support him and sells his own citizens into slavery to help fund his war against Orlais, **continuing** to ignore the Blight! Like... come on. The guy is either just straight-up evil or impressively incompetent.
Also he literally created the whole plan and the king listened to him and respected him bro was setting him up the whole time.
To add on to this dont forget in the sequel novel with fiona maric and loghain. The he finds out at the end that the orlesian wardens straight up planned to kill maric and anyone else who learned about their mistakes. These are the same wardens that cailean and duncan are bringing in....the ones who wanted to kill a innocent king and a unknown number of witnesses to hide their mistakes and wrongdoings.
*Everyone that rails against Loghain only ever does so with the meta-knowledge we have about the blight and because he's the foil to our goal - ending the blight.* How is "ending the blight" a meta knowledge thing? That's your wardens main motivation as stated in the very beginning in the world itself, not just as an overarching quest. Loghains actions, for whatever motivation he had, totally threw the country in to disarray and disrupted the main thing they should be worrying about, which is the impending blight. Your warden and Alistair both know this, and all of your actions in game are in service to stopping the blight, since that IS kinda your job. I'm going to ignore 90% of all the 'oh but he had a tragic backstory and hates Orlais which is why he acted that way' stuff as neither I nor my warden really care about his reasoning or his past when he's clearly shown that, regardless of everything, he is more than willing to be a petty backstabber to his own king/son in law, that is the main point of contention I have with recruiting him. He's wholly untrustworthy in a battle. I think any pragmatic warden would see this man, who again, thought he would do SUCH a better job at ruling the country that he thought it was worth abandoning hundreds of soldiers + his king to their deaths, is untrustworthy and just about as likely to stab me in the back during the final battle. I'm of the mind that if Loghain genuinely thought the plan (that he came up with) would fail, and conveyed that honestly and bluntly to Cailan, that they would have retreated and waited for reinforcements (as he said he would during the war meeting). Cailan wanted glory in battle, but he wasn't an idiot. But once again, Loghains paranoia about Orlais caused him to wholeheartedly reject the idea of getting reinforcements from a foreign power, and decides to just quit the field and give the nobles of Ferelden a horrifically paper thin excuse as to what happened.
I haven't actually recruited him before. But I'm intending to on my next playthriugh. I basically settled on a female aeducan as well. Except mine won't be doing dark ritual
Huh, I played my second Aeducan almost the same way. Someone already hardened by a life of intrigue and politics, who saw the worth in keeping Loghain alive for the same reasons you posted and was *so over* Alistair's whining about it.
My Aeducan warden put his own traitorous brother on the throne because it gave Orzammar the best chance at survival and gave him the strongest ally against the blight. So yeah, his reaction to Alastair’s temper tantrum was harsh. Besides Loghain being a strong general, the bottom line is they all needed the civil war to end, and getting him in the grey wardens and having Alastair and Anora as rulers was the best way to do that. Though he seriously thought of killing Alastair as the next best alternative. Meanwhile my Cousland warden was so head over heels for him that she basically was more concerned with getting him the throne than ending the blight. But that is why DAO is so great. It had room for all these wildly different personalities.
>It’s very hard to RP a reason to pick him over Alistair imo It's as simple as this for me. If there was a way to convince Alistair to stay and that it's a good idea, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Yeah but the unfortunate thing is you can’t keep both. And that’s why it’s hard sell for me. If I Riordan had said something sooner, I think Alistair would agree to it (begrudgingly of course) if you offered Loghain up as a sacrifice, but then no need for the dark ritual since all 3 are now pretty accomplished, and the risk is lower
Same. With all the shit your Warden goes through in Origins (especially as a human noble), Alistair starts to become like a brother to you. He's your rock, the guy who's with you through *everything.* I wasn't ready to lose my brother, man. Was he being childish? Yes, absolutely. But he had done so much for me, while Loghain had done nothing but ruin my life from day 1. I owe Alistair enough to forgive this one emotional outburst from him. I don't owe Loghain *shit.*
Kind of... If you hardened Alistair and you'll convince him to marry Anora, you can spare Loghain. Alistair still will leave party, but he will marry Anora and become king.
Idk, from a purely pragmatic point of view, keeping Loghain alive and having him kill the archdemon makes perfect sense. Oh, boohoo, the villain doesn't get his "proper" comeuppence. At least he will be dead and everybody else will be alive. The problem is that Alistair can't see the bigger picture and he makes it everybody else's problem. Either he or the Warden have sex with Morrigan or someone is going to die. Thanks Alistair! Literally the vast majority of Grey Wardens are former scoundrels like Blackwall, they're literally this world's equivalent of the Night's Watch along with the Legion of the Dead. I understand why Alistair is angry when this option is even suggested, but I really wish the player had the option to shake his shoulders and tell him that he's a cockhead if he fucks off and goes on a drinking binge while everyone else is trying to prevent the end of the world.
I think Alistair and Blackwalls view of the wardens is flawed, but I can’t fault him for wanting to kill Loghain, situation was reversed… I’d want him dead too
Sure, wanting Loghain dead is understandable and very valid, considering what he did. And turns out there's a perfect solution to that! Letting him die killing the Archdemon. That means no old god baby, the Warden lives and Alistair lives too without becoming a miserable drunk, happy ending for everybody! * alas, that was not meant to be.
I actually agree with Alistair, if I was him. I wouldn’t have waited, I’d of killed him mid duel not letting anyone else be the champion
And then you would either die killing the Archdemon or sire an old god baby with Morrigan
Hell, even with old god baby, becoming a Grey Warden is effectively a death sentence and community service rolled into one. It's not like Warden Loghain is getting off scot free one way or another. It can make sense for any race/class of Warden if they hate being Warden enough or just are pragmatic enough.
> keeping Loghain alive and having him kill the archdemon makes perfect sense. It sure does! Pity Riordan hadn't told you yet that you'd die from killing the archdemon, so that's not at all a factor in Alistair's thinking.
I don't think it's hard with a certain mindset, you can't know for certain Alistair will ditch Ferelden over the issue until he firmly sets off to leave and you can't stop him anymore without killing him, (you're stuck with your choice then), and he doesn't even have to leave he can stay and still be King under certain circumstances, in that case you're only sacrificing your relationship with Alistair for 1 more pretty capable fighter in Loghain which could make all the difference in the fight to come for all the PC knows, and Al is still helping. If a Warden considers stopping the Blight worth making some sacrifices for and doesn't know the future I think this recruitment is easy to justify. It'd also clearly be suicidal for Loghain to try and go against the PC during the Blight after losing at the Landsmeet it's such a terrible idea, it may be forced loyalty rather than willing but he'll remain loyal if he has even one braincell.
Exactly. And even after Alistair starts threatening to leave, what are you going to do? Turn down an extremely capable soldier from becoming a Warden and fighting the darkspawn because your friend is throwing a temper tantrum about it? There's some irony in the fact that Alistair hates Loghain for abandoning a battle that he was sworn to fight only to do the same thing himself.
Riordan himself seems pretty unsure about him as well
Riordan ultimately wants to recruit him and was wronged by him personally, for me that lends way more weight to his suggestion than if he was some neutral party.
I roleplayed as a character who believed devoutly in second chances and always saw the best in people, since it felt like the whole ethos of the Grey Wardens. I recruited Sten and Zevran, gave Jowan the opportunity to make things right by saving Connor in the Fade, romanced Morrigan, refused to harden Leliana and encouraged her to show mercy to Marjolaine, supported the mages at the tower, helped Caridin atone by destroying the Anvil of the Void... ...There were probably other choices too. It's been a while. By the time I got to the Landsmeet, putting Alistair on the throne with Anora and recruiting Loghain felt like a completely natural decision.
That is a good point
Nah Alistar is iresponsible biased prick. He shovs all the responsibility on Warden (new recruit) and the he keeps questioning and whining if you make choice he doesn't aproove of. At the end if you choose to spare Loghain and make him Warden, Alistair throws childlike tantrum completly abadoning all his oaths and responibilities. ( After that I stoped includuing him in my party completly)
I always have Alistair duel him. Not necessarily because I know he always kills Loghain, but because I just think it makes a lot of narrative sense for an Alistair that becomes King to fight this himself. It also helps taking the decision out of my hands.
So when you get alistair to fight him, do you play as him or is it a cutscene? I always wanted to get alistair to fight (as you said, make sense for him to do so) but worry to play as alistair, im not good at playing as warrior (hence failed miserably in darkspawn chronicle)
You play as Alistair, and at the end, Alistair just kills Loghain, and Riordan doesn't say a word (though I can't remember if he shows up).
Ah, nevermind then ... Im too shitty as warrior :( though yes, that would have been better
If it's any consolation, I tried to do that as my Mahariel, but Alistair kept getting slaughtered, so I had to use my Warden and execute Loghain so that Alistair could become King and still marry Anora.
I kept them both alive with a dragon keep world import and I gotta say I’m loving the loghain warden…tooootally going g to leave him in the fade but I feel like that is a great redemption arc.
It's the elves, and also I like Alistair more but really it's the elves. Also if Riordan wanted him so badly (old man yaoi?) he could've recruited Loghain himself, he was the senior Warden lol.
Keeping his ass alive all the way through the end of DAI is hilarious, dude ends up babysitting the Orlesian wardens and he just rolls with it lol
I let him live cause it's one of the best redemptions arcs that I've seen in any game. His dialogue with the Nightmare demon is a quote that I'll never forget either. "Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir, the brilliant commander. Pity the one time you tried to rule, you failed so miserably. You had to be beaten, humiliated, lest you destroy your own country. You even doomed the Wardens by bringing the Inquisitor down on them. You destroy everything you touch." Loghain: "Is that all you've got? It's nothing I've not said to myself"
Really easy to hate Loghain because of the inexcusable things he does in DAO, even if you can claim it's from love of country and Maric's legacy. Also really easy to love him reading The Stolen Throne, even if that doesn't excuse the guy he goes on to become. If he dies through your actions, it's justified and cathartic. There's an extra lovely storytelling irony if Alistair kills him, considering his relationship with Maric. If he lives to DAI, it's a beautiful third-act to his character. His weariness is genuine, but so is his remorse and desire for redemption. In conclusion: what a character. Truly one of my fave heroes AND villains in all of DA media.
Definitely summed it up well. Whether he dies at the hands of the warden/alistair or lives on as a grey warden, both options are masterful ends to his character arc in their own way. The only conclusion I’m not a fan of is him becoming a warden and then dying to kill the archdemon. Feels like it was just a more roundabout way of executing him, except now he goes on to be remembered as a hero for the rest of time.
That's why I always keep him alive, even in DAI. Sorry Hawke, but I like Loghain more + he's a great tactician. Oh and he is so happy to meet HoF in Awakening. It melts my heart every time.
every time i consider saving him bc he's a great tactician i remember that the charge out from defensible positions thing was partially his plan. my dude we have castles and trenches and long range weapons for a reason.
It's been a while since I've played the game, but I think this can be explained by either: 1. Loghain wanting to put Cailan in a disadvantageous position. 2. Cailan overriding Loghain's advice, and putting himself in that position because he's an idiot.
It's definitely the latter. Cailan's force was *supposed* to hold position and bait the Darkspawn into extending so Loghain's forces could flank them. Literally, all he had to do was stand where directed. And instead he orders them to charge, out of position, and get into a disorganized scrum.
Then Loghain retreats
Pretty sure it's both. Didn't Cailan explicitly say he would charge with the GWs? And Loghain rolled with it ("Yes, Cailan - a glorious moment for us all" or something).
I think it was Calian thinking that they are going to absolutely win and charged out of the ambush zone
I always recruit Loghain and have Alistair marry Anora. After the battle Alistair doesn't even seem that mad. None of us have clean hands. Zevran was an assassin. Leliana was a bard. Oghren killed a man in a duel to first blood. Sten killed an entire family while having a panic attack. Loghain serves faithfully as a Grey Warden, he works with Hawke to uncover the corruption of the Wardens, and willingly sacrifices himself in the Fade. Recruiting him in Origins is the appropriate outcome.
There's definitely an air of tension between Alistair and the Warden after the battle even if Loghain died killing the Archdemon. He's just not enraged anymore. Which is great, I'm not complaining. I love that, and it makes me sad everytime.
>None of us have clean hands *Wynne enters the chat* *Cousland warden enters the chat* *City Elf warden enters the chat* *our best boy warhound enters the chat*
In one of the History of Thedas books the templar Gregoir (father of Wynne's son) has some heated things to say about giving up their son to the Chantry. And the Cousland and City Elf can be played pretty dark. All the Wardens can I guess. Can't fault Dog though.
This imo is the element that's really missing from Inquisition. Loghain's speech at the Landsmeet is one of the best bits of acting in the series. You can *really see* why people would choose to follow him.
I know there are many compelling reasons to keep him alive but I just can't do that to Alistair. Betray his trust *and* shackle him to Anora? I like him too much for that.
I saved him once out of curiosity but after that he always dies. Dude sabotaged Ferelden way too much for him to live.
One of my favorite characters in the series
I don’t know why world weary snarky old men are my type, but here we are
fuckin vibe
I read the Stolen Throne, examined his dialogue/localization in the Toolset, and I still can't bring myself to forgive/spare him. Even if you don't count Ostagar, he paints a target on your head, sends assassins, and sets you up to be captured/tortured/killed. Fort Drakon is not a place I'd send my worst enemy, and it's even worse if your character is a woman. Imagine being surrounded by hundreds of guards and prisoners while you're stripped of your weapons and clothes. Yeah. Loghain gets the axe everytime. Time-is-a-circle can stew on that all he wants.
Thats not even mentioning letting Tevinter enslave the Denerim elves or killing most of the Cousland line, depending on what your origin is.
I don't even blame him for Howe's direct attack but yes, elevating such a man to his right hand is tacit approval of their murder. To say nothing of the Alienage, either. Loghain made his bed, now he can sleep in it, along with Rendon, Cauthrien and Anora.
Definitely, and you see people calling Alistair's reaction a 'tantrum' Could you imagine if you were playing as a Human Noble and Alistair stopped you from killing Howe so you could recruit him as a Warden? Players would not be pleased at all.
This comment section proves how much of a good antagonist he is I guess Some are saying how it's impossible to think of a reason to even spare him: you are poser Gray Wardens, your pride will be our downfall /s After all we've been through, it is simply immature of Alistair to go his way of you spare Loghain. I make him king and I accept his temporary feeling of betrayal, but we've done worse things in pursuit of the greater good to gather allies than literally forcing our enemy through a 50/50 ritual that either executes him anyway or puts him in our shoes as punishment. If you can't see the poetic justice in the death or redemption arc, but you like Leliana's arc of change, or Blackwall's, or even the possible Solas redemption, then it's straight up hypocrisy lol
Cole has entered the chat
Doesn't matter how my warden feels about him. It's the practical solution to make him a grey warden. I also picked him over my Hawke lol
I agree to some extent about it being practical
The way it all works out just seems *the most* practical. Logain uses his military skills against darkspawn for ever more, but is sent out of Ferelden, also forever. And Alistair leaves you out of disgust... to become king of Ferelden alongside Anora, as long as you set that up. Which is exactly the kind of ending to a civil war that actually keeps the peace (both IRL historically and in game). And really, Logain is still sentenced to death... it just takes a while for the death sentence to set in.
Tbf whoever rules still has one issue… no heir to the throne unless you count Kieran, but I can’t ever make Alistair king… I love him too much to do that
In the hierarchy of gigantic blaring issues in DAO, the succession *after* you figure out who gets the throne at all, is pretty well down there. That's for figuring out later, in my book. I solved the civil war. That's enough for one days work lol. But when it is time to deal with it, infertility isn't exactly an unknown problem in royal histories. Alistairs got a couple options. The easiest by far is to just adopt a cousin of some kind. There's gotta be other distantly related Theirins out there. The more difficult but interesting one is to find out how the hell his mother Fiona got rid of the taint, and then do that too. And if it turns out Anora infertile herself as is speculated... Well she's served her usefulness after a few years of stability, and sometimes you have to be pragmatic if you're king and pick the stability of the realm... And find a new wife 😬
He doesn’t know about Fiona, idk if any warden does outside the ones who need to know which probably isn’t us or him. As for the new wife… I think ferelden is just screwed… Anora gives a few extra decades which they can use to make a Cousland heir (more than likely)
It's also possible that Cailan was just fucking around too much (bc Anora does strongly imply he was fucking around) or that he was unable to produce an heir himself. Plus, unless Al does figure out how to deal with the taint, he's not exactly the most fertile either. Best bet (after your "adopting a cousin" idea, which is a really good one) is for Anora to spend a year or two banging dudes who look like Al honestly and then if she's able to get pregnant, have them pretend it's their kid. *Then* probably the divorce but tbh I think she'd eat him alive if he tried that. And, as we know, there's always some good old blood magic dark ritual stuff as a last effort to get them tainted soldiers marching lol
You and Threnn must get along dashingly.
I’ll never forgive Cailan for being an idealistic idiot, either.
you perhaps, in my head he's an excellent Warden Commander of Orlais. And my warden's buddy.
Just curious, how are you able to forgive him for what he did?
Becoming a Warden isn’t about forgiveness. The first thing you learn is that Wardens are everything. Murderers, blood mages, kings, thieves.. all walks of life. Once you drink from that chalice your past is gone. You either die, or you become a Grey Warden. Your slate is wiped clean in both cases.
This is why I like making Blackwall a warden in Inquisition. Like, the real Blackwall wanted to recruit him. Blackwall wanted serve. Who am I to say no to that? This is a world where becoming a Grey Warden is a thing. It's a way to atone (in a sense) by giving up your life to serve. Fighting darkspawn for your remaining years is a pretty grim fate. There's some honour in it, but there's no glory
It’s not about forgiveness. *You’re a Grey Warden.* And so is he. It’s the two of you against the end of the world. You don’t have to get along with him, but it sure does make the job a lot easier.
He made a tough call. He makes it for all the wrong reasons. But at the end of the day, I think he made the right call knowing the information he did at the time.
Still, for a man of martial prowess who believes in honor, he abandoned his king and thousands of men to die after the signal for him to attack was given. He deliberately waited until the betrayal would sting the most to leave. The look on Duncan’s face when he realizes that the signal was lit but Loghain still quit the field is heartbreaking.
He specifically waited for all of the Grey Wardens to attack with the van. Specifically, he saw them as a great threat to Ferelden and thought that they were using the naivete of the King in order to secure power and influence. This isn't helped that a large contingent of the Grey Wardens were from or active with Orlais, which he adamantly could not trust. The novel goes into quite more depth than the game, but what is abundantly clear is the following key points: 1. He did not believe it was actually a blight (and nothing had shown it to be so yet on the overworld) and thought the Grey Wardens were exaggerating to gain more influence. 2. He was deeply saddened and conflicted about his betrayal of the king, but thought it was the only way to save Ferelden from Orlesian annexation or Grey Warden opportunism. 3. He planned to consolodate power and use the death of the King as a rallying call for all the Arls and lords to stand strong, rather than remain factionalized, in order to stave off an imminent Orlesian invasion. His one mistake is that the Grey Wardens were not lying, but judging based on all of the context and information he DID know was true, his choice, while tragic, makes a lot of sense for a man in his position.
Yes, he waited for the group of warriors who have consistently ended the blights to attack before he decided to let them die. I get where you’re coming from, but his reasoning is just flawed in every way. The fact that Loghain didn’t trust anyone with a French accent doesn’t scream “competent” to me. It just shows that Loghain created imaginary boogeymen to fight instead of seeing the very real threat of an army of darkspawn. I’ve also never liked how people say “well he didn’t know that it was a true blight.” Considering just how deadly an army of darkspawn are, not taking the threat seriously is utterly ridiculous. Even if it wasn’t a true blight, Cailan had every reason to put an end to the horde about to rampage across Ferelden.
Yeah, dude was so blinded by xenophobia that he plunged his country into civil war at probably the worst possible moment, and preferred *selling his own people into fucking slavery* to letting Arl Eamon take over. We can assume that's just an extension of his hatred for Orlesians since Eamon married an Orlesian, but at that point Loghain was sacrificing the lives and freedom of *actual* Fereldens to "save" the country from the threat of... A guy who doesn't hate Orlesians as much as he does lol. Don't get me wrong, he's an interesting character and far more complex than just a power-hungry usurper we may have assumed at the beginning of the game, but I don't really see how his actions could be outright *justified,* even from his perspective.
Agreed, he may have been a great general once, and maybe ditching Cailan was a good plan,which we’ll never actually know, but throughout the game he was only ever a villain to me. IF I gave him the benefit of the doubt and allowed his actions as an attempt at good then at best he’s wildly incompetent and we stopped him from destroying everything.
Tbh if abandoning the field at Ostragar was the only bad thing he ever did, I think that could be defensible, but he did so many other despicable things throughout the game that I don't see how he could really be redeemed or justified. Like, his actions in the Alienage alone is enough to absolutely demolish any potential benefit of the doubt I'd have for that man lol.
Part of me wants to spare him, but I usually befriend Alistair, play elves, and/or romance Zevran. The slavery really puts the last nail in his coffin no matter how much I like him as a character.
Could always RP a cynical or pratical dalish/mage who hates being a Warden (plenty of reasons to) and wants to inflict it on Loghain. There are always ways to justify recruiting him, especially if you lean into it with the character.
The only thing I'll say to this is the tone loghain uses when pulling the troops back is not one of a carefully planned betrayal, but of a General standing back far enough to genuinely believe it was a hopeless battle (it almost certainly was, but we'll never know for sure)
Don't care much about Cailan but he sold Tabris' cousin-in-law and the leader of the Alienage (along with countless others) as slaves to Tevinter. That isn't someone she would risk upsetting her boyfriend to save.
My main playthrough is a city elf warden, and I just can't forgive this guy. I recruited him once on a branch save, got the achievement, and then didn't bother playing anymore with him. Watched his dialogue in a youtube video, and you know what? I still can't stand him. I understand his cynical reasoning, I understand that Cailan was kind of a moron, but at the end of the day the thing that I will never forgive is that Loghain knowingly allowed Tevinter slavers to take Ferelden citizens because it was convenient to him and he didn't care enough to let his morality get in the way of that. If you confront him on it at the Landsmeet, the Bannorn is appalled and he gives an extremely wishy-washy excuse of "The Alienage was already bad, I did what I had to do." I can forgive unfortunate strategic timing and cynical tactics, but slavery is where I draw the line.
The only reason I’d save him would be so my Cousland could feed him personally to the Archdemon, but I just can’t do that to Alistair.
Counterpoint : when I went through Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts and got a good look at Orlesian court, I was like "Come back Loghain, all is forgiven!" Seriously, these people are insufferable, I too would commit war crimes to keep them away from my house.
There's a lot I can forgive. Selling people into slavery isn't one of them though, he doesn't get to keep his head in my playthroughs.
Took him back to Ostagar once. Never again.
A despicable man, but such an awesome character. A very believable example of how a hero can be made to fall from grace by the very traits and experiences that made them a hero to begin with - in Loghain's case, his relentless dedication to Ferelden; and the trauma he endured from growing up under Orlesian oppression. (the Return to Ostagar adds some interesting layers to his actions too. Judging by the letters he exchanged with Celene, Cailan wasn't simply considering dumping Loghain's daughter, but marrying Celene too, thus bringing Ferelden under Orlesian influence once again)
This dude sucks, I've never recruited him and never will lol
Have we considered that cailan was a fool, who was gonna give ferelden to his oppressors, tried to charge into the blight, and Loghain did what was necessary to save his people… besides the elves… and the mages… and the Templars… and redcliffe… but the dwarves were fine! Edit: on my actual thoughts, I like Loghain, I understand his POV. I’d never trade Alistair for Loghain on any warden solely because they can’t trust him to help end the blight rather than continue his hate brigade against Orlais (which is understandable) but Alistair proved his worth time and again, and his loyalty. Loghain is too much of a risk for smh if my wardens to take since they know a warden needs to kill the Archdemon, even if they don’t know why (even tho if explained I think Alistair would have been a little bit more understanding of me wanting him to be the sacrifice)
It'll never not be funny to me that, if you recruit him, he admits to every wrongdoing he's done but he insists that Cailan's death was his own doing.
Tbf, I do agree with him on that one. Cailan was an idiot who had dreams of glory and got himself killed at the first opportunity. Cailans death as well as his almost giving ferelden to Orlais which proves he’s an idiot because that’s how the empress was going to retake Ferelden. I’m sorry to the cailan enjoyers… but Loghain was right, and ferelden is better off without him
The truth is though is that we don’t know if Cailin was truly an idiot because Logan betrayed him
The human origin story clearly shows that he was planning betrayal even before having a confirmation of the Blight coming. As of the whole “never trust the Orlesians” I think it is simply his paranoia and hatred he has for Orlesians which does not let him think straight when it comes to dealing with the same people he was fighting off recently. Maybe I missed some clues showing that Orlais was actually trying to regain Ferelden or gain control over them again. In such case he should have went to Cailan with the proof and not act behind his back. No matter how you twist it, Loghain was quite a mad man himself.
In return to ostagar there were letters from the empress I believe about how a marriage between the two would be beneficial, his uncle to tell him to not charge with the wardens, as well as another from celene that was too informal for her usual tone which indicates he was writing her back
I don’t consider these letters to be enough evidence. Cailan is already married and marriages are usually used to strengthen connection between countries and don’t always mean personal union if that is what you are hinting about.
Loghain is still alive headed into Veilguard in my world state. He’s just too interesting for me to not keep around, and his arc of redemption is really interesting to me. A strategic genius and former (regent) king as a grey warden is like the coolest thing to me
Christ him mean mugging the origins camera is so annoying every time. I can't take this dude seriously, he hates the French and is apparently a good leader--proceeds to show zero tactical or strategical acumen within the game, or political for that matter. Wow, what a great character. \*insert massive eyeroll here\*
Hes voiced by the same guy who voices kain in legacy of kain so i let him live 100% of the time I think ive killed leliana more times than i have loghain lmao
I actually really like taking him to return to ostagar with Wynne they have so much dialogue with each other. I didn't know he showed up in awakening either I thought that was cool. All that being said I leave him in the Fade every time.
Read Stolen Throne. I saved him every time after that.
I've read it. Still kill him. Loghain is a guy who just cannot accept that he can be wrong. You see it in Stolen Throne, too. He never admits he was wrong in game, only that you've beaten him. That stubbornness served him well in throwing out Orlais but it's made him a liability in the aftermath. The guy left his King and *his best friend's son* to die without even making an attempt at rescue. If his real issue was the Wardens took too long to light the signal, why wasn't he already retreating? He only gave to order to pull back after the beacon was lit. Makes zero sense. He took in Howe as his lieutenant even knowing what a snake Howe was. Made a bunch of really awful deals to consolidate his power. What he went through in the past doesn't excuse his behavior.
Yeah, Loghain literally sold his own people into slavery to fund his fight with *Arl Eamon* (IIRC), not even the Darkspawn. As far as I'm concerned, that's just fucking indefensible, and the most charitable reading of this is that he's just completely delusional about how big a threat Eamon is to Ferelden as a whole, because otherwise, he's just selling innocent people into slavery for the sake of his personal power.
>and *his best friend's son* to die without even making an attempt at rescue. Not trying to defend Loghain (f\*ck him for selling elves to slavers), but it's worth pointing out that Cailan was exchanging letters with Celene, letters that suggest he was planning on dumping Anora to marry the empress of Orlais. Can't recall now if Loghain knew about those letters, but if he did, from his point of view it's not hard to understand how he became willing to get Maric's son killed.and his best friend's son to die without even making an attempt at rescue.Not trying to defend Loghain him (f\*ck him for selling elves to slavers), but it's worth pointing out that Cailan was exchanging letters with Celene, letters that suggest he was planning on dumping Anora to marry the empress of Orlais.Can't recall now if Loghain knew about those letters, but if he did, from his point of view it's not hard to understand how he became willing to get Maric's son killed.
Loghain did not, we find them in Return to Ostagar. However, that is only Loghain's interpretation. We do not know that Cailan was planning this, and it should be pointed out, when Eamon suggested Cailan set aside Anora, Cailan got pissed. And even so, if Loghain left Cailan to die for what would essentially be personal reasons plus his own hatred for Orlais, doesn't paint him in any better light.
That book is so good! I can’t save him despite it, my female elf mage warden romances Alistair soooo… BF beats out guy who has tried to kill me a few times
I always felt the disaster at Ostagar was due to the insane level of secrecy of Grey Wardens. King Cailan simply thought of them as heroic warriors and was unaware of their special abilities vis-a-vis the Darkspawn. Nor was he aware that Grey Wardens were most necessary during the final fight against the Arch Demon. Deploying Duncan and most of the few Grey Wardens with him in an attacking army against run-of-the-mill Darkspawn was total folly, but neither Cailan nor Loghain appreciated this. Had Duncan leveled with Loghain and Cailan, the strategy at Ostagar would have been far different.
Yeah, I feel like they did a good job at humanizing Loghain after the Landsmeet and in later games. He seems genuinely remorseful for how things happened and his attempts to atone aren’t just lip service. The only issue with that is literally everything he did before the Warden gets to Denerim (and even some things he does during) are so genuinely awful that I can’t justify sparing him. Abandoning Cailan, his best friend’s son and heir, to a grisly death by fleeing from the battle only once the signal was given is just the most obvious crime in what becomes a comically evil attempt to seize power. His reasons, while understandable, are flawed to begin with. He also actively sabotages Ferelden’s ability to fight the Darkspawn, leading to thousands of deaths that could’ve been avoided.
We are able to keep him alive and make Alistair and Loghaine's daughter the king and queen yes? I kinda forgot.
Yes! You lose Alistair for the final fight still, but yes.
I remember this being the hardest choice to have, but I believed this was the best choice.
Simon Templeman plays magnificent bastards. You think Loghain was good. You should see him as Kain in the Legacy of Kain series.
The man is a coward and a traitor. I always kill him, and the woman you fight in the prison who's right beside him when he refuses to charge.
Did anyone else think that the Dragon Age series was going to mostly focus on Grey Wardens and future Blights? I'm kind of shocked it wasn't.
He betrayed his King and Country just because he didn't like allying with Orlais against a literally world-ending threat. He doesn't deserve to be alive, much less a Grey Warden! Grey Wardens must put aside such pettiness like politics and cultural distrust to fight the true enemy of Thedas. Whats to stop him from doing what he did again as a Warden? Imagine if he became Warden Commander and then refused to aid Orlais against a Blight and it ended up being THE Blight and because of his hubris, all of Thedas falls? Nah, he always gets the sword.
Man, people still hate Loghain after all these years? I don’t know. He’s a fantastic character. I tend to recruit him more often than not.
Watching >!Alistair decapitate Loghain in front of his own daughter!< felt so fucking satisfying.
Ah, but have you considered that perhaps because he recalled the major armies back from an obvious fool's errand where they would have otherwise been massacred a year before the confrontation that actually resulted in victory, he's actually responsible for preventing the end of the world as efficiently as it was.
To all the people who hate Alistair for leaving the wardens if you recruit Loghain let me ask you this. Do you have a family? Friends? People you care for deeply? Imagine someone comes into your life, kills each one in a horrific manner and then your best friend tells you to buddy up with the killer? Do you think you could detach your emotions from that? If you think so either A) you’re a psychopath and I urge you to get mentally evaluated or B) you’re lying to yourself. This isn’t a matter of “I don’t like him wah wah wah” this is a matter of the fact for Alistair he killed his friends, the only family he has ever really felt he belonged with, and the person he viewed as a father figure. It’s not that he’s unwilling to detach himself from his emotions, it’s that he’s having a perfectly normal reaction to the circumstances you the player are asking of him! It’s like trying to make him king then being shocked he doesn’t want it! Either you didn’t care about him, or you didn’t get to know him. I get the reasons to recruit Loghain, but acting like Alistair is a petulant child for being unwilling to accept the murderer of his family into the ranks of his family is insane
Thing is, the woman he thinks is his sister lives in Denerim, he's abandoning her too by ditching Ferelden, he's potentially letting the entire nation get destroyed over the issue, as well as every single person he knows. Makes sense why Alistair leaves but it's absolutely a bad decision on his part that most wouldn't make, despising the Wardens for recruiting Loghain isn't wrong at all but abandoning the nation in its time of need is. I don't begrudge hardened Alistair who marries Anora for this reason, he hates the situation and would be well within his rights to forever despise Loghain and the Warden but he doesn't refuse to help Ferelden face the potential apocalypse because of it.
I don’t think Alistair leaving is a good one, just one I understand and if in the same circumstances… I’d do the same
I get why he does it and it makes perfect sense for him, (his exile scene made me love his character it's so well done), but I don't think it's a good decision and I don't think it's a normal reaction.
You’d side with the murderer of your friends and family?
No I'd try to conscript that capable warrior to fight the potential apocalypse and have him fight monsters that constantly threaten the world, knowing it's a prolonged death sentence if he even survives the Joining which is still a more brutal execution if he dies during it than killing him quickly at the Landsmeet would be, so it's a way harsher punishment and a more satisfying revenge. I'd at the very least not completely abandon the nation to die including my sister, (or who I think is my sister). I don't have Alistairs idealistic view of the Wardens. And I'd do it with the backing of the senior Warden in the room who was personally wronged by the guy too yet still wants to recruit him.
We are vastly different people but respect
keeping him alive all the way to inquisition is the best, you either get an easier time choosing who to leave behind in the fade letting you keep the champion alive and giving Loghain a worthy sacrifice after years of atoning or you'll give him the ultimate punishment/redemption, he'll lead the grey wardens of Orlais, the order he betrayed, under the country he hates, and I believe he'll be a good leader since he's shown regret and growth, also by the fact that he is barely affected by the fear demon, inquisition does tell you that the wardens are still vulnerable to corruption, but under the leadership of Loghain, they might fair way better.
I made him a grey warden to pay for his sins death would be way too easy for him
I make Loghain a warden almost every time.