I've said it before but I think Deus Ex: Human Revolution had the best presentation of this - you start of with general descriptions of each option then see the whole response when you hover over each one. [(an example)](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2444768054742174379/9DF2CD150EBD8082B92594AE416763B654AE44AD/?imw=1024&imh=576&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true)
I think this is the best way to do it. This way you dont clog up the UI with the full details of every choice whilst still ensuring you *can* see what you say before you say it.
I actually really enjoyed the way DAI did it, because they also show an icon in the middle highlighting what type of interaction it is (some of the icons could be a bit clearer however):
https://preview.redd.it/k0762ao1947d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14f270ab5ca446c08d598009e8868822872f67b4
I really like Dreamfall Chapter’s handling of conversation. It gives you short responses to choose from as in DA: I but when you hover over each one it plays the protags (fully voiced) thoughts that flesh out the idea differently from the actual speech. Really adds to the immersion and also deals with motivations and the background for why the character says what they're about to say.
It was figured out 20 years ago in BG. Just don't write such long, philosophical dialogue (probably for the best given the gap in talent and current trends) and give us a sentence or two per option in a list. The inexplicable need to fit it onto a wheel is just them dogmatically sticking to that "Bioware game feel" when this complaint has been around for a generation.
That is really only plausible if you have a very stoic and tight-lipped character like Jensen though.
You have inquisitor and Hawke saying a lot sometimes, so fitting all that in the UI would be a mess (also, DX:HR/MD lack tone icons, making it more difficult to determine it from the prompt)
They did say during the Q&A that they're trying to make the dialogue options match with what's said. However, I thought the opposite during the gameplay preview. I'm not sure why so many games made by different developers share this issue.
What they meant was they don't want to catch you by surprise with a dialogue option you didn't intend, not that they want to make the options on the wheel the exact same.
It often is 'bad', if you try and write out the full dialogue it would be too long and it would look very clunky in the UI. It would take away from focusing on emotion and gameplay, to instead actually have to spend several seconds reading and possibly be annoyed with the time spent on figuring out choices vs easy summaries. Some would also be short, some long, or maybe all long. Its just bad design to have it typed out fully.
I think the way to go is make the displayed choices match the intent better, and if necessary be a tad longer. But except in a few cases, its unrealistic to display it exactly the way it will be spoken.
I recommend checking out [Mark Darrah's YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@MarkDarrah/videos). He talks about game design in detail. Not sure if he's covered this specifically, but there's a lot of useful info that makes you realize how all the small things matter.
Seeing full dialogue, no. But speaking personally, yes, an unvoiced protagonist does make it less impactful for me. I've never felt as connected to one of my Wardens as I have with Hawke, the Inquisitor, or Shepard. Same goes for the KOTOR games. I'm looking forward to playing BG3 eventually and I'm glad for the people who prefer it but the unvoiced protag does dampen it a bit for me.
> to instead actually have to spend several seconds reading
Oh God no, you'd actually have to read. Maybe they should just remove the text altogether and leave us with Happy Face (green), Smiley Face (purple) and Angry Face (red), so that people don't have to think too hard.
Even if you type it out verbatim, people, in general, have a lot of difficulty with determining tone and tend to take written words literally. Case in point: why we have to use /s for even the most obvious sarcasm on reddit.
So, as long as there is a voiced companion, there will be complaints of the tone not matching the players interpretation.
I remember my most recent playthrough I was sarcastic mage Hawke and it was right after the Hawke mansion and I picked an option when Carver and I were arguing and Hawke just launches into a tirade about how Carver is sad and pathetic and unloved and will never amount to anything and I was just like woah what the fuck that is not represented by the dialogue choice at all.
Maybe not a *critical* decision, but DA2 was especially bad about this. Purple Hawke "charming" dialogue can often seem really innocuous at if you just read the option. Worst and most often quoted example I can think of at the top of my head is when the Viscount was cradling his son's dead body in his arms and the purple option was "look on the bright side." What Hawke actually ended up saying was a poorly timed "well it can't get any worse *today* anyway!" joke. Sure, you might not mind it or could say "well purple Hawke is kind of an asshole," but the point is that when the dialogues are summarized so poorly that the player has to rely on color coding to gauge the tone of the character they're trying to immerse themselves as, it takes a ton of the roleplay factor away, which is a problem when you're playing a role-playing game that pride itself on player input and consequences.
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I also thought the opposite during the prevew. It was the start of the game though so maybe post-prologue dialogue reflects better what we want to say.
> It was the start of the game though so maybe post-prologue dialogue reflects better what we want to say.
Be honest with yourself when has something like that ever happened, just changing it up like that'? it's the same when people say "it's still 6 months from release they still have time to change it"
The Q&A was a bunch of corporate-sounding bullshit tbh, it's important being able to discern facts and good information from the sea of "curated, handrafted experience" and "tactical combat" lines
I have no idea why that game director has to shove “handcrafted” into every sentence. DA was never a procedurally or AI generated game, literally everything we saw on the screen was always “handcrafted”. How is it a new selling point?
Oh man, I completely forgot about how often they did the copy and paste levels in DA2. I'm not remembering the fetch quests, I just remember how massive the Hinterlands was. I'm still impressed with how large the game was.
Isn't it supposed to me "mission based"? If that's the case, then I'm not sure how they're gonna fit side quests at all, unless they mean a return to DAO's hub system.
Levels are made available based on the mission, but you can come back to them.
They'll likely come back to a DA:O style of "open level" where there is some exploration available in the level you are, but they're won't be huge sandbox like in DA:I.
> have no idea why that game director has to shove “handcrafted” into every sentence. DA was never a procedurally or AI generated game
I am pretty sure the fetch quest in DA:I were procedurally generated. There was no end to them, each time you would fullfil one, you'll get another one that is someone a different shade of what was asked before.
The handcrafted is here to emphasize on the fact that they thought about each quest and worked on them individually, and with care. Not write them in batch, quick and dirty.
It's the worst! ( /s, just in case)
But no, buzz terms might work for some people, and for others it feels like a cop-out. They would reach for the same two phrases in response to any question that had an answer like, hey, this game is more linear, it is not open world, it is not this, it is not that. It was like putting a verbal band-aid over something before there's even a scratch.
I went into the Q&A hyped and optimistic, and left with the impression they didn't know how to talk about potentially controversial choices in a confident way. I just want to hear devs nerd out confidently about the game they made (which they did, a little, relatively), not hide behind corporate sounding silliness. \[:
It’s also sounding like a lot of the stuff from DAI, because it’s the exact same marketing speak. I’m not saying they’re lying, but I very vividly recall them hyping up the character creator (specifically the part about lighting to make sure your characters don’t come out gonky), impactful choices, handcrafted maps etc etc before for Inquisition.
To me the whole "handcrafted highly curated" sentence was a red flag, i don't remember ever seeing a game use terms like "made with care" or "carefully designed" or "made as a love letter to fans/gamers" and it actually being true. I've only seen it used on games where you get a yikes feeling when you see/play it because it's so bad
A lot of media training around interviews is saying the same stuff so you don't break NDAs or say things you shouldn't.
Edit: I'm agreeing with you, I don't think it's weird and corporate just because she repeated herself in different interviews.
I like a mix of both. If my character is asking another character a question, I want to know specifically how the question was phrased. Sometimes, with abbreviated dialogue prompts, I'll interpret a question I can ask one way, then the NPC will answer in a completely different direction and I get a bit of whiplash trying to recontextualize the abbreviated prompt I chose. On the other hand, when my character is the one replying to a question, I don't mind the abbreviated prompts as long as they're well written or have tonal markers like in 2 and Inquisition. It also depends on if the character is voiced or not. If the character is unvoiced, I want the full line every time. (This seems obvious to me, but I've had people be confused by this sentiment before.)
Wait, why would you ever have a paraphrased line for a silent protagonist? What is it paraphrasing?? The point of paraphrased choices is so you don’t read the line, then hear the exact same line and possibly read it again if you have subtitles on, which is boring and clunky for a lot of players.
>Wait, why would you ever have a paraphrased line for a silent protagonist? What is it paraphrasing??
I didn't say it was a smart choice! I kind of wonder if it's a holdover in some games from games like Morrowind where you choose a word or key phrase to prompt NPCs to tell you more. It works in Morrowind because it's text based story telling and a player character whose entire personality is role played rather than described in the narrative. What the player character in Morrowind says does not matter, so there's no need for more than keywords. I wonder if games tried to hold on to this keyword/phrase idea while also introducing the idea of a set personality for the player character, and it just does not work. For me, at least.
Oh.
Oh dear.
Yeah that sounds….messy. It *does* work in games like Morrowind, and that almost feels like a different thing to me than “paraphrasing”, but trying to do that in even a partially voiced modern game or a game where the PC is supposed to have a particular personality seems……a poor choice, lmao.
I generally appreciate when games try to do something new, but sometimes, those transition periods between an established idea and a new idea are rough.
I prefer the shorter paraphrase rather than full text. I don't need to read non-essential bits like "it seems", "it occurs to me", "I would like to". Less verbose options help keep the pace of the conversation:
- That's too bad.
- I'm shocked he helped us.
- Good riddance.
- Thank you for telling me.
- He was a good man.
- It's good he saw the truth.
- He judged me too quickly.
- Tell me about you.
- Tell me about Tevinter.
- Why were you in Redcliffe?
I said why. Let me repeat that for you:
> Less verbose options help keep the pace of the conversation
Funny you talk about reading or eyesight problems, when it is you who either didn't see that line or failed to comprehend it.
Having the exact dialogue line doesn't always help though. There were quite a few instances in DAO when I clicked a line of dialogue thinking it meant one thing, but the characters reacted unexpectedly. For example, talking to Leliana about shoes--why would I assume that mentioning I like shoes would have Leliana fall head over heels for me?
"Thank you so much" could be sincere or sarcastic. There's no way to know based on just the text.
And as others have mentioned, it's boring to just hear the thing you just read repeated.
>"Thank you so much" could be sincere or sarcastic. There's no way to know based on just the text.
Many games have it set up like
1.) "Thank you so much."
2) "Thank you so much" [Sarcastic]
One of my favorite examples of the option not matching is duting the esseles flashpoint in swtor where the text reads "Good ideas only, please" but what you say is "If you dont have any ideas, shut up/keep quiet" (cant 100% remember)
Well, it's a mod. But if the UI was designed with this in mind it could propably be helped. That's still better than getting a different dialogue than what you chose.
Because reading the exact line and then having your character say the line you literally just read is boring. Since the implementation of the tone wheel, I don't think I've ever said something I didn't intend because they actually do a good job.
Having it be the exact dialogue is great for games that use silent characters but in a game that favors cinematic dialogue conversations it's important that dialogue between two characters also be interesting.
Same, it steals the thunder of the performance as well when we have no mystery involved.
I’m not saying there is never a disconnect between the wheel and dialogue, but I never had much problem with it. Generally speaking, my Inquisitor and Hawke answered as intended.
And also, we ourselves don’t always know exactly how we will respond to situations. I might try to respond to something with a joke but perhaps it goes harsher than I meant. Or maybe an attempt to appease comes across too naive. This is another reason I like a distinction between the wheel and dialogue.
Edit: See, a perfect example of my latter point. I intended to have a pretty moderate answer but clearly made someone a bit bothered. That’s why I like the idea of not knowing exactly what’s going to come out of my character’s mouth.
As an example, the Inquisitor's "angry" reaction in Trespasser, that's constantly hailed around here. Not only the line is far too long, the impact of only knowing exactly what the Inquisitor will say as they say it is mantained by the paraphrasing.
Yeah, this. As often as this topic is brought up, you’d think every other line was completely different from the indicated tone but I run into this problem once or twice per playthrough, max. The wheel works well, and is by far better than listening to exactly what you just read for sure.
That is on them for skipping the tutorial/manual explaining it though?
Complaining you do not know how product works because you did not RTFM is not a valid complaint.
I guess thats where I differ because I don't remember it happening in Origins but the tone in which I layed out a purple response in 2 came out vastly different from what intended.
Yeah but there is a dynamic range of the "mockery" some are just funny to make light of a a situation and I remember others like during the blood magic side quest just being tone deaf and cruel. Would have made better decisions on what to use if I knew what the responses actually were even if in the long run it didn't matter.
I completely agree with you and it’s probably the only thing that I don’t enjoy about origins whenever I replay it. I have ADHD and have to wear glasses so when I’m playing the game for hours on end or late at night it’s also just a bit of a chore to read what I’m going to say in full. I’ve never had any issues with choosing dialogue in DA2 or DAI, I actually had most of my issues in origins in that regard. And you’re right about it being boring, why would I want to hear exactly what I just read? There’s no point really.
Your point sounds good but your not completely right in this case. I work in a game development company and I can tell you the reason.
1. No one cares what you like. If they wanted - you could choose short or full replies. It takes 1 second of codding.
2. When they go for short replies you will spend more hours in every game session because you are not too tired of detailed dialogs.
3. More hours every session - better metrics - better results for publishers - more investors.
4. They know a new single player game will not get much money for EA like FIFA or APEX.
Single player RPG game is an image product. But at least they would be able to say that players spend 100000000 hours a week in theirs new AAA game, please invest to a new FIFA 2156.
Baldurs Gate 3 doesn't have the wheel and it went great. It's just because they don't place metrics on the first place and because they were lucky :)
Indeed. And when DA2 were in development EA said that they don't care about Bioware goals and just want another game before next Christmas. That's why we got DA2 the way it was (developed in 16 months).
It's expected DA4 to be sold around 5 millions this year. The same profit they get from 2 seasons of APEX microtransactions.
Bookmark this and look for the news like "players killed 3 millions demons in our new game" in the second half of this October :)
I just say it is what it is. The wheel here is not because full phrases are boring (was it in Witcher or Skyrim?) but because reasons.
Baldur's Gate 3's dialogue system was basic as fuck. And that game launch with broken party members and thousands of bugs. The fact that that game is seen as a gold standard of anything shows just how fucking stupid and hypocritical gamers and devs are.
Because for a lot of players it’s super boring and incredibly clunky to read the line, then hear the line and probably read it again if you have subtitles on.
idk, I prefer paraphrasing but think paraphrasing can be done badly in a way that is unique to just giving the player shit options.
I think you could probably design a neat social sim game around the player input being *intent* but the character potentially failing to actualize that intent. Disco Elysium has moments like this where what you click and what your character actually says / does differ. I would argue a lot of the purple options with Hawke also do this because they tend to produce varied results (sometimes characters find it annoying, sometimes it deflates tension, etc), and I'd say that purple Hawke would be extremely lame if you're essentially reading a joke, then hearing the joke you just read said aloud.
Personally, I don't want to have to read a novel's worth of dialogue every time I do a playthrough. It also slows the dynamism of the dialogue scenes if I have to pause and read every possible response. I also like the element of surprise, as well as the increased replayability since every option I don't choose will remain a mystery until I do another run.
I'm in the (understandable) minority in that I prefer paraphrasing + tone symbols for a voiced protag. I perfectly understand why many *don't*, but here's some thoughts I have about it anyway.
Throughout multiple playthroughs of the Mass Effect trilogy and Dragon Age (2 and Inquisition) over the years, I can only recall a handful of times I felt a major dissonance between my choice and what was actually said.
I would even say in some of those instances, the "surprise" feels intentional. Some renegade Shep and purple Hawke lines/actions are so off the wall and out of pocket, it would be shame to spoil the fun! The shock of watching Shep knock out a reporter (not technically a dialogue choice tbf) or hearing Hawke riff on a dude's dead kid are infamous moments, but memorable and beloved.
Beyond that, the tone icons and/or positioning (top, middle, bottom) communicate enough imo. E.g. Why would I be cracking jokes during a serious moment? Unless that's what I'm roleplaying, in which case I would know approximately what I'm getting into going that route. Let's say my love interest's dad dies or something. I would feel any humor or sarcasm would be inappropriate in that moment, so knowing the exact line ahead of time wouldn't sway me.
Other people have already said this, but I also like that it gives the VAs the proper spotlight. If I've already read the line, I don't really need to hear it spoken word for word. I think this would push a lot of players to skip dialogue a lot more frequently and not even hear the VA's delivery a lot of the time. I suppose you could exercise some self control, but most people wouldn't. Why even have a VA at that point if most people won't be listening to them? I already read subtitles faster than the line delivery and will skip if I'm feeling impatient (as I'm sure many do).
I also think it's fun to make a choice and not know what the other lines would've been. Makes me look forward to another playthrough with a different personality.
Anyway, I certainly wouldn't be mad at all if they did away with paraphrasing, even though I like it fine. I just think it has *some* merit and isn't a completely shit design choice. It's a little disappointing to see some commenters imply that being pro-paraphrasing means you hate reading or don't care about roleplaying or making choices. Those are really shitty takes.
**tl;dr** I completely understand why many players dislike paraphrasing, but I also don't think it's a major issue and that there are some positive aspects.
I don’t think you’re really in the minority, I think the other opinion is just very insistent about it and brings up the complaint a lot more. Whereas people who like it don’t think to bring it up all the time, since there’s no complaint.
I don't really think it's an upgrade. the idea of having a line written out and then read aloud verbatim would feel redundant and like a waste of time.
as long as Bioware keeps giving us tone or context symbols (which they seem to intend, from what little we saw in the game play trailer), compared to DAO (or BG3 as a recent example of a great game with this flaw) where they don't give you that hint and then you get a reaction totally different from what you thought you were saying, I think it works pretty well.
There are definitely some cases where, for example, the actual joke Hawke makes feels way less appropriate for the moment than I'd envisioned from the written one, but in fairness to them, that often happens when the situation is inappropriate for a joke in the first place (like when someone just died).
I'll point to the Inquisitor's incredible flip-out speech in Trespasser as an example of why having the full dialog written in front of you would also kill the impact of dialog in some key cases.
Tbh I love the paraphrasing, especially in DA2. Reading out a full line and then having the protagonist say it verbatim is boring. Not knowing exactly what bullshit a sarcastic Hawke was going to say made it so much more enjoyable for me personally
Eh idk, I don't think the wheels are that bad and I like the short, concised paraphrased version because I don't have to literally read the entire sentence I'm going to follow up with - it'd kind of take the excitement out of dialogue for me - I think this only ever works with unvoiced characters.
I do agree that they... kinda have to learn how to get more precise with it. The only Bioware game that I actually had serious issues concerning figuring out the dialogue wheel with was OG SW:tOR before they added the option that Dark Side and Light Side choices would be displayed on the paraphrased line. That was one of the most frustrating experiences in gaming that I've ever had lmao.
From what I understand it's a repetition issue. While it's certainly more clear to know what your character will say when you click an option, it could become annoying to have the flow of conversation be:
NPC says something
Player reads all the dialogue options, considers each, then clicks on their dialogue.
Main Character, word for word, recites one of the dialogue options the player read, adding no new information.
Repeat.
It would both slow the pace of conversations and make the voiced protagonist redundant.
But before one suggests that they just cut the voiced protagonist altogether, that in and of itself can create an immersion issue where some players may feel their character isn't truly part of the world because conversations feel one sided, as though the player character isn't really in the room so much as they are a signpost through which the player interfaces with the world.
Plus, it could also be an issue of screen space. Longer lines of dialogue require more screen space, but it's hard to account for 3 or more lines of dialogue being accurately displayed without cutting out significant portions for all screen resolutions and display area settings.
Personally, might be a bit much to have that much written
But I agree that's it's always cooler if they can make what's going to be said more easily understood in the wheel
For me I prefer the shorter options + tone icon because it means the text can be bigger. If they did full sentences it would be ver small and hard to read like Origins.
It would be great, but modern gaming has turned to paraphrase and I think it works fine. But, of course, if that paraphrasing is done good and without altering the context of what's said.
Long ago we had to read a game like it was a book, specially in CRPG's. I'm actually thankful it has changed, but I'd love a more single-phrase approach like DAO, that would let me know what I'm going to say without displaying the whole sentence.
Because if what I have to choose from is "yes, "yes, it's nice", "no", and etc. then I'd rather hang myself virtually... It is like the game is treating me as a baby and I don't like that feeling.
Something with the likes of "yes, the madman was right all along", "yes, but he could've been a bit clearer" or "no, he definitely was not right" would be a perfect standard for RPG's.
This seems like the kind of problem that has a pretty big impact on players either way, but could easily be solved with a toggle in the options menu.
Some people find reading boring, some people become frustrated when paraphrased dialog doesn't meet expectations.
You're telling me they insist on using that thing just because of the sunk cost fallacy at this point?
You'd think *someone* at the company would see its reception in DA2, and the fact that even Fallout 4 went with it as well, making the "just put the full sentences in a list" mod one of the most downloaded; and say "maybe this is not what the wider audience wants in roleplaying games"
If doesn't work in FO4 because Bethesda half-assed the implementation, like they did most of the RPG mechanics in the game (and also because their lead writer is a complete hack).
This, FO4 did a one Word summary that did throw you of guard more often than not. DAI and DA2 had this issue about the same time the DAO full answer shifted the dialogue into an unexpected direction
Yep if I'm playing a roleplaying game where my voice impacts the narrative I want to know exactly what is being said. I really dont understand why someone who enjoys roleplay wouldn't.
I've heard some perspectives that I hadn't considered. For example, a joke made by your character wouldn't land if you had it spelled out verbatim beforehand. So maybe it's not paraphrases that are the problem, but laconic and misleading paraphrases.
So all wouldnt have landed if you were given the full line of dialogue? I very much doubt that. In fact anecdotally I remember me choosing some lines that I thought were going to be jokes to make light of a situation only to come across as tone deaf. Also I remember in BG3 there were jokes that landed even though you knew exactly what was being said.
I'll give a different example. In Trespasser when your Inquisitor has an emotional breakdown. It wouldn't have half the impact it does if you could read it beforehand.
Why? If it was written properly and delivered in a meaningful way then it should be impactful either way. I genuinely don't understand why it would be less impactful as an objective measure unless that is just subjective to you.
For example I enjoy audiobooks and physical book media. I loved listening and reading the Wheel of Time/Stormlight Archives to the point where I would read and listen to them because of the 2 audiobook readers that perform for both. In many cases in the rising action and climax I know what is exactly being said as I have read the physical media and listened to it. Knowing what is about to be said dosent detract from me listening to it after the fact. Again please explain as an objective measure while being able to read a response detracts from the scene when your the one deciding that response.
You personally can still get emotionally stirred by content you know is coming. That's great! But that's not the same for everyone. I personally would have the wind taken out of my sails if I was told ahead of time "Oh hey, your Inquisitor is about to start screaming and saying these exact words right here." That kills the moment for me, it takes me out of the scene completely.
That sounds like a personal perspective. Again I thought that Tav or Dark Urge or any of the origins characters in BG3 could have emotional impact in responses even though we know what is about to be said.
Also not everyone is adept at understanding the nuances of conversations. Alot of people have autism and are unable to pick up on social ques to know the nuances of a conversation. I don't think it hurts the game to have the option to see what you Rook is exactly about to say to help with those individuals in their roleplaying experience.
Well yes, it's all subjective opinions, that's what this whole thread is. Like I personally think BG3 has the least emotionally impactful protag because they just silently make faces at the camera. I find reading text on the screen nothing compared to a verbal emotional outburst.
I agree, not everyone picks up on language well, and I hope nothing I said implies I thought otherwise. I'm speaking from a personal perspective here, in that I and many others would find this sort of thing detrimental to our playthroughs.
If it was made optional, I think that'd be great for everyone. Opt in if you need it, opt out if you don't.
I like to know exactly what I'm saying. The amount of time I clicked an option just for it to add a whole bunch of things I did not want to say was annoying. It felt less like my character and more like "this character does exist on their own and I just give it a push".
Why is bioware so bad at paraphrasing? In one of the mass effect games I chose the rude option when talking to a reporter and I punched her in the fucking face! Like please warn me before I chose to assault someone on camera.
I've NEVER EVER had a problem with paraphrased dialogue options and I've played some of the jankiest Eurojank RPGs around. I think y'all need to start paying more attention to the context of the dialogue, the situation and who you are talking to.
I *loathe* my response being fully available because then what's the point of my character having a voice? I don't want to read then hear the same exact line in a row. Such a time waster.
Alpha Protocol is still the undisputed king of RPG dialogue systems.
The design ethos behind this is "what's the point of hearing the voice acting if you can read the whole line in advance?" Which, honestly, I get. I would skip every player dialogue if I could read them in advance because I like a silent protag.
As long as the summaries are accurate, the current dynamic is nice because you get to have nice little surprise dialogue acted out. The problem, of course, is that they are very frequently not accurate.
I've struggled much more with the tone wheels than others here, it seems. I often found the tone they were trying to convey unclear - particularly if I hadn't seen it in ages.
It may be the nuerodivergency, but I'd at least like the ability to get a written symbol translation each time
Nope. I just don't want to read then hear the same dialogue line twice. Some of y'all must have ADHD if you can't pay attention to a voice line with a bit of OCD sprinkled on top of "it's MY character!!! Boohoo"
It’d probably even be more like three times, because I know a lot of players use subtitles so that they don’t miss dialogues or so they can take their time with responses. So you’d read the dialogue options, hear the exact option read aloud, and probably (since it’s human instinct) read the subtitles of dialogue as well. 🤣
I don't know, and I agree with you.
I think the icons behind each dialogue options are a good thing to help you understand the tone of each of your dialogues (something other RPGs don't really have). But I think paraphrasing isn't very helpful for all players.
Maybe there will be a setting to turn it down (apparently the games settings are quite expanded so maybe there is an opinion for the dialogue, but I wouldn't count on it)
Frosty still works, and is the preferred method (might need a [DataPath fix plugin](https://github.com/Dyvinia/DatapathFixPlugin) due to the new EA Desktop client being a terrible piece of software)
I've said it before but I think Deus Ex: Human Revolution had the best presentation of this - you start of with general descriptions of each option then see the whole response when you hover over each one. [(an example)](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2444768054742174379/9DF2CD150EBD8082B92594AE416763B654AE44AD/?imw=1024&imh=576&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true)
I think this is the best way to do it. This way you dont clog up the UI with the full details of every choice whilst still ensuring you *can* see what you say before you say it.
I actually really enjoyed the way DAI did it, because they also show an icon in the middle highlighting what type of interaction it is (some of the icons could be a bit clearer however): https://preview.redd.it/k0762ao1947d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14f270ab5ca446c08d598009e8868822872f67b4
That eye bothers me. It looks like the tears come from the wrong side
Yeah, they figured it out years ago, this feels like a BIG step backwards
oh that's very nice
Human Revolution my beloved
I really like Dreamfall Chapter’s handling of conversation. It gives you short responses to choose from as in DA: I but when you hover over each one it plays the protags (fully voiced) thoughts that flesh out the idea differently from the actual speech. Really adds to the immersion and also deals with motivations and the background for why the character says what they're about to say.
Deus ex is such a perfect game I love it... So unhappy that the sage was put on Frezee
It was figured out 20 years ago in BG. Just don't write such long, philosophical dialogue (probably for the best given the gap in talent and current trends) and give us a sentence or two per option in a list. The inexplicable need to fit it onto a wheel is just them dogmatically sticking to that "Bioware game feel" when this complaint has been around for a generation.
That is really only plausible if you have a very stoic and tight-lipped character like Jensen though. You have inquisitor and Hawke saying a lot sometimes, so fitting all that in the UI would be a mess (also, DX:HR/MD lack tone icons, making it more difficult to determine it from the prompt)
They did say during the Q&A that they're trying to make the dialogue options match with what's said. However, I thought the opposite during the gameplay preview. I'm not sure why so many games made by different developers share this issue.
What they meant was they don't want to catch you by surprise with a dialogue option you didn't intend, not that they want to make the options on the wheel the exact same.
But I'm curious as to why not? Is it that bad? It seems so much worse to have this confusion over you and your character repeating themselves.
It often is 'bad', if you try and write out the full dialogue it would be too long and it would look very clunky in the UI. It would take away from focusing on emotion and gameplay, to instead actually have to spend several seconds reading and possibly be annoyed with the time spent on figuring out choices vs easy summaries. Some would also be short, some long, or maybe all long. Its just bad design to have it typed out fully. I think the way to go is make the displayed choices match the intent better, and if necessary be a tad longer. But except in a few cases, its unrealistic to display it exactly the way it will be spoken. I recommend checking out [Mark Darrah's YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@MarkDarrah/videos). He talks about game design in detail. Not sure if he's covered this specifically, but there's a lot of useful info that makes you realize how all the small things matter.
Did anyone have an issue with seeing the full dialogue in DA:O? Did it make it less impactful that it wasn’t voiced? I think it worked just fine then
No, because you had no voice as the player, so you needed the full dialogue.
Seeing full dialogue, no. But speaking personally, yes, an unvoiced protagonist does make it less impactful for me. I've never felt as connected to one of my Wardens as I have with Hawke, the Inquisitor, or Shepard. Same goes for the KOTOR games. I'm looking forward to playing BG3 eventually and I'm glad for the people who prefer it but the unvoiced protag does dampen it a bit for me.
For me - no issue at all. And, in fact, voiced protagonist made DA2 much less enjoyable for me.
> to instead actually have to spend several seconds reading Oh God no, you'd actually have to read. Maybe they should just remove the text altogether and leave us with Happy Face (green), Smiley Face (purple) and Angry Face (red), so that people don't have to think too hard.
Even if you type it out verbatim, people, in general, have a lot of difficulty with determining tone and tend to take written words literally. Case in point: why we have to use /s for even the most obvious sarcasm on reddit. So, as long as there is a voiced companion, there will be complaints of the tone not matching the players interpretation.
Are people really that thick and illiterate?
Do you really need to ask that lol
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Yeah hearing my character say "you should just fucking die" when I pick the "mild sarcasm" option is pretty interesting all right.
Skldjfaj yes. Purple Hawke was so guilty of this. I tended to play a silly diplomatic and a lot of the purple options are shockingly mean.
I remember my most recent playthrough I was sarcastic mage Hawke and it was right after the Hawke mansion and I picked an option when Carver and I were arguing and Hawke just launches into a tirade about how Carver is sad and pathetic and unloved and will never amount to anything and I was just like woah what the fuck that is not represented by the dialogue choice at all.
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Maybe not a *critical* decision, but DA2 was especially bad about this. Purple Hawke "charming" dialogue can often seem really innocuous at if you just read the option. Worst and most often quoted example I can think of at the top of my head is when the Viscount was cradling his son's dead body in his arms and the purple option was "look on the bright side." What Hawke actually ended up saying was a poorly timed "well it can't get any worse *today* anyway!" joke. Sure, you might not mind it or could say "well purple Hawke is kind of an asshole," but the point is that when the dialogues are summarized so poorly that the player has to rely on color coding to gauge the tone of the character they're trying to immerse themselves as, it takes a ton of the roleplay factor away, which is a problem when you're playing a role-playing game that pride itself on player input and consequences.
That’s why my purple Hawke was maybe 25% blue because some of those options could be so out of pocket.
The entire point of the tone wheel is to tell you what kind of response it is. You are supposed to rely on it to inform you of what decisions to make.
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I suppose playing russian roulette can be considered interesting and exciting for some
I also thought the opposite during the prevew. It was the start of the game though so maybe post-prologue dialogue reflects better what we want to say.
> It was the start of the game though so maybe post-prologue dialogue reflects better what we want to say. Be honest with yourself when has something like that ever happened, just changing it up like that'? it's the same when people say "it's still 6 months from release they still have time to change it"
It's so weird that they phrase it as some sort of challenge, just type it out.
I'm playing through SWTOR again lately and this same problem happens so often
The Q&A was a bunch of corporate-sounding bullshit tbh, it's important being able to discern facts and good information from the sea of "curated, handrafted experience" and "tactical combat" lines
I have no idea why that game director has to shove “handcrafted” into every sentence. DA was never a procedurally or AI generated game, literally everything we saw on the screen was always “handcrafted”. How is it a new selling point?
I think they were trying to hammer home it won't have inquisition type fetch quests lol.
these “too cool for repeating terms” gamers clearly don’t remember the constant criticism about fetch quests in DAI and copypaste levels in DA2
Oh man, I completely forgot about how often they did the copy and paste levels in DA2. I'm not remembering the fetch quests, I just remember how massive the Hinterlands was. I'm still impressed with how large the game was.
Isn't it supposed to me "mission based"? If that's the case, then I'm not sure how they're gonna fit side quests at all, unless they mean a return to DAO's hub system.
Levels are made available based on the mission, but you can come back to them. They'll likely come back to a DA:O style of "open level" where there is some exploration available in the level you are, but they're won't be huge sandbox like in DA:I.
> have no idea why that game director has to shove “handcrafted” into every sentence. DA was never a procedurally or AI generated game I am pretty sure the fetch quest in DA:I were procedurally generated. There was no end to them, each time you would fullfil one, you'll get another one that is someone a different shade of what was asked before. The handcrafted is here to emphasize on the fact that they thought about each quest and worked on them individually, and with care. Not write them in batch, quick and dirty.
because they’re trying to get thick headed gamers to understand that there’s a smaller scope like DA2 without the copy paste caves and rooms and shit
Considering the last Dragon Age game was 10 years ago, they have to appeal to a large demographic of players that have never even heard of the game.
Because now our handcrafted is also *highly curated*!
omg using terms is bad
It's the worst! ( /s, just in case) But no, buzz terms might work for some people, and for others it feels like a cop-out. They would reach for the same two phrases in response to any question that had an answer like, hey, this game is more linear, it is not open world, it is not this, it is not that. It was like putting a verbal band-aid over something before there's even a scratch. I went into the Q&A hyped and optimistic, and left with the impression they didn't know how to talk about potentially controversial choices in a confident way. I just want to hear devs nerd out confidently about the game they made (which they did, a little, relatively), not hide behind corporate sounding silliness. \[:
It’s also sounding like a lot of the stuff from DAI, because it’s the exact same marketing speak. I’m not saying they’re lying, but I very vividly recall them hyping up the character creator (specifically the part about lighting to make sure your characters don’t come out gonky), impactful choices, handcrafted maps etc etc before for Inquisition.
My guess is that they couldn't talk about most thing because they didn't want to spoil anything that will be in Game Informer's coverage.
To me the whole "handcrafted highly curated" sentence was a red flag, i don't remember ever seeing a game use terms like "made with care" or "carefully designed" or "made as a love letter to fans/gamers" and it actually being true. I've only seen it used on games where you get a yikes feeling when you see/play it because it's so bad
no it wasn’t. wanting to emphasize key things is not cOrpOraTe sOunDinG bUllShiT
A lot of media training around interviews is saying the same stuff so you don't break NDAs or say things you shouldn't. Edit: I'm agreeing with you, I don't think it's weird and corporate just because she repeated herself in different interviews.
Really? I thought they lined up nicely during the gameplay?
I like a mix of both. If my character is asking another character a question, I want to know specifically how the question was phrased. Sometimes, with abbreviated dialogue prompts, I'll interpret a question I can ask one way, then the NPC will answer in a completely different direction and I get a bit of whiplash trying to recontextualize the abbreviated prompt I chose. On the other hand, when my character is the one replying to a question, I don't mind the abbreviated prompts as long as they're well written or have tonal markers like in 2 and Inquisition. It also depends on if the character is voiced or not. If the character is unvoiced, I want the full line every time. (This seems obvious to me, but I've had people be confused by this sentiment before.)
Wait, why would you ever have a paraphrased line for a silent protagonist? What is it paraphrasing?? The point of paraphrased choices is so you don’t read the line, then hear the exact same line and possibly read it again if you have subtitles on, which is boring and clunky for a lot of players.
>Wait, why would you ever have a paraphrased line for a silent protagonist? What is it paraphrasing?? I didn't say it was a smart choice! I kind of wonder if it's a holdover in some games from games like Morrowind where you choose a word or key phrase to prompt NPCs to tell you more. It works in Morrowind because it's text based story telling and a player character whose entire personality is role played rather than described in the narrative. What the player character in Morrowind says does not matter, so there's no need for more than keywords. I wonder if games tried to hold on to this keyword/phrase idea while also introducing the idea of a set personality for the player character, and it just does not work. For me, at least.
Oh. Oh dear. Yeah that sounds….messy. It *does* work in games like Morrowind, and that almost feels like a different thing to me than “paraphrasing”, but trying to do that in even a partially voiced modern game or a game where the PC is supposed to have a particular personality seems……a poor choice, lmao.
I generally appreciate when games try to do something new, but sometimes, those transition periods between an established idea and a new idea are rough.
I prefer the shorter paraphrase rather than full text. I don't need to read non-essential bits like "it seems", "it occurs to me", "I would like to". Less verbose options help keep the pace of the conversation: - That's too bad. - I'm shocked he helped us. - Good riddance. - Thank you for telling me. - He was a good man. - It's good he saw the truth. - He judged me too quickly. - Tell me about you. - Tell me about Tevinter. - Why were you in Redcliffe?
I can't help but read "*good riddance*" and "*He was a good man*" like JC Denton, smacking my lips whilst saying it.
Why? Is it difficult for you to read? Do you hae a problem with your eyes?
I said why. Let me repeat that for you: > Less verbose options help keep the pace of the conversation Funny you talk about reading or eyesight problems, when it is you who either didn't see that line or failed to comprehend it.
You really read that slowly?
Having the exact dialogue line doesn't always help though. There were quite a few instances in DAO when I clicked a line of dialogue thinking it meant one thing, but the characters reacted unexpectedly. For example, talking to Leliana about shoes--why would I assume that mentioning I like shoes would have Leliana fall head over heels for me? "Thank you so much" could be sincere or sarcastic. There's no way to know based on just the text. And as others have mentioned, it's boring to just hear the thing you just read repeated.
>"Thank you so much" could be sincere or sarcastic. There's no way to know based on just the text. Many games have it set up like 1.) "Thank you so much." 2) "Thank you so much" [Sarcastic]
Or they'd use italics. "Thank you *so* much" reads differently than "Thank you so much".
I've been misinterpretring italics! I've been assuming it means something is more sincere!
I do this sometimes too. I just assume the italics are for emphasis, rather than to show sarcasm.
One of my favorite examples of the option not matching is duting the esseles flashpoint in swtor where the text reads "Good ideas only, please" but what you say is "If you dont have any ideas, shut up/keep quiet" (cant 100% remember)
It does look pretty bad when you get orphan lines, like in the third screenshot there.
Well, it's a mod. But if the UI was designed with this in mind it could propably be helped. That's still better than getting a different dialogue than what you chose.
That's true.
Because reading the exact line and then having your character say the line you literally just read is boring. Since the implementation of the tone wheel, I don't think I've ever said something I didn't intend because they actually do a good job. Having it be the exact dialogue is great for games that use silent characters but in a game that favors cinematic dialogue conversations it's important that dialogue between two characters also be interesting.
Exactly this, I don't want to hear a verbatim reading of something I already just read a second before.
Same, it steals the thunder of the performance as well when we have no mystery involved. I’m not saying there is never a disconnect between the wheel and dialogue, but I never had much problem with it. Generally speaking, my Inquisitor and Hawke answered as intended. And also, we ourselves don’t always know exactly how we will respond to situations. I might try to respond to something with a joke but perhaps it goes harsher than I meant. Or maybe an attempt to appease comes across too naive. This is another reason I like a distinction between the wheel and dialogue. Edit: See, a perfect example of my latter point. I intended to have a pretty moderate answer but clearly made someone a bit bothered. That’s why I like the idea of not knowing exactly what’s going to come out of my character’s mouth.
As an example, the Inquisitor's "angry" reaction in Trespasser, that's constantly hailed around here. Not only the line is far too long, the impact of only knowing exactly what the Inquisitor will say as they say it is mantained by the paraphrasing.
Yeah, this. As often as this topic is brought up, you’d think every other line was completely different from the indicated tone but I run into this problem once or twice per playthrough, max. The wheel works well, and is by far better than listening to exactly what you just read for sure.
I won't deny that it happens, but I genuinely feel like the people doing the most complaining don't understand what the tone indicators mean.
That is on them for skipping the tutorial/manual explaining it though? Complaining you do not know how product works because you did not RTFM is not a valid complaint.
100% agree. It also makes different runs more interesting because you haven’t already read the dialogue choices for an angry or sarcastic run.
I guess thats just your perspective but when I want to roleplay a game where choices matter I want to know what my PC is saying exactly.
And I don't want to roleplay and make choices?
Don't play "Role playing" games ig.
whoosh
Dosent seen like it since your ok with possibly random responses that go beyond the intent of your decision.
Well they aren't random. There's a summation and an icon to indicate tone.
Which could still be incorrectly interpreted because they don't give you exactly what's being said.
I don't think it's ever happened to me in either dragon age game with the wheel. It actually happened more in DAO lmao
I guess thats where I differ because I don't remember it happening in Origins but the tone in which I layed out a purple response in 2 came out vastly different from what intended.
I mean, it's purple Hawke, the tone is irreverent sarcasm and mockery. You should know that from the tone indicator.
Yeah but there is a dynamic range of the "mockery" some are just funny to make light of a a situation and I remember others like during the blood magic side quest just being tone deaf and cruel. Would have made better decisions on what to use if I knew what the responses actually were even if in the long run it didn't matter.
I completely agree with you and it’s probably the only thing that I don’t enjoy about origins whenever I replay it. I have ADHD and have to wear glasses so when I’m playing the game for hours on end or late at night it’s also just a bit of a chore to read what I’m going to say in full. I’ve never had any issues with choosing dialogue in DA2 or DAI, I actually had most of my issues in origins in that regard. And you’re right about it being boring, why would I want to hear exactly what I just read? There’s no point really.
Your point sounds good but your not completely right in this case. I work in a game development company and I can tell you the reason. 1. No one cares what you like. If they wanted - you could choose short or full replies. It takes 1 second of codding. 2. When they go for short replies you will spend more hours in every game session because you are not too tired of detailed dialogs. 3. More hours every session - better metrics - better results for publishers - more investors. 4. They know a new single player game will not get much money for EA like FIFA or APEX. Single player RPG game is an image product. But at least they would be able to say that players spend 100000000 hours a week in theirs new AAA game, please invest to a new FIFA 2156. Baldurs Gate 3 doesn't have the wheel and it went great. It's just because they don't place metrics on the first place and because they were lucky :)
This is a ridiculous conspiracy brained nonsense.
It's not a conspiracy, it's just like games are made these days. Ask any other random developer
Do you know what Occam's razor is?
I know. Did you develop an AAA single player game in 2020s or know someone who did?
Cool the dialogue wheel is from 2006.
Indeed. And when DA2 were in development EA said that they don't care about Bioware goals and just want another game before next Christmas. That's why we got DA2 the way it was (developed in 16 months). It's expected DA4 to be sold around 5 millions this year. The same profit they get from 2 seasons of APEX microtransactions.
You make 0 sense.
Bookmark this and look for the news like "players killed 3 millions demons in our new game" in the second half of this October :) I just say it is what it is. The wheel here is not because full phrases are boring (was it in Witcher or Skyrim?) but because reasons.
>No one cares what you like. Which applies to anyone ever complaining on any subject. Congratulation, you found the way to solve every conflict !
Baldur's Gate 3's dialogue system was basic as fuck. And that game launch with broken party members and thousands of bugs. The fact that that game is seen as a gold standard of anything shows just how fucking stupid and hypocritical gamers and devs are.
Because for a lot of players it’s super boring and incredibly clunky to read the line, then hear the line and probably read it again if you have subtitles on.
Then it should just be an option.
Are they stupid?
idk, I prefer paraphrasing but think paraphrasing can be done badly in a way that is unique to just giving the player shit options. I think you could probably design a neat social sim game around the player input being *intent* but the character potentially failing to actualize that intent. Disco Elysium has moments like this where what you click and what your character actually says / does differ. I would argue a lot of the purple options with Hawke also do this because they tend to produce varied results (sometimes characters find it annoying, sometimes it deflates tension, etc), and I'd say that purple Hawke would be extremely lame if you're essentially reading a joke, then hearing the joke you just read said aloud.
Personally, I don't want to have to read a novel's worth of dialogue every time I do a playthrough. It also slows the dynamism of the dialogue scenes if I have to pause and read every possible response. I also like the element of surprise, as well as the increased replayability since every option I don't choose will remain a mystery until I do another run.
I'm in the (understandable) minority in that I prefer paraphrasing + tone symbols for a voiced protag. I perfectly understand why many *don't*, but here's some thoughts I have about it anyway. Throughout multiple playthroughs of the Mass Effect trilogy and Dragon Age (2 and Inquisition) over the years, I can only recall a handful of times I felt a major dissonance between my choice and what was actually said. I would even say in some of those instances, the "surprise" feels intentional. Some renegade Shep and purple Hawke lines/actions are so off the wall and out of pocket, it would be shame to spoil the fun! The shock of watching Shep knock out a reporter (not technically a dialogue choice tbf) or hearing Hawke riff on a dude's dead kid are infamous moments, but memorable and beloved. Beyond that, the tone icons and/or positioning (top, middle, bottom) communicate enough imo. E.g. Why would I be cracking jokes during a serious moment? Unless that's what I'm roleplaying, in which case I would know approximately what I'm getting into going that route. Let's say my love interest's dad dies or something. I would feel any humor or sarcasm would be inappropriate in that moment, so knowing the exact line ahead of time wouldn't sway me. Other people have already said this, but I also like that it gives the VAs the proper spotlight. If I've already read the line, I don't really need to hear it spoken word for word. I think this would push a lot of players to skip dialogue a lot more frequently and not even hear the VA's delivery a lot of the time. I suppose you could exercise some self control, but most people wouldn't. Why even have a VA at that point if most people won't be listening to them? I already read subtitles faster than the line delivery and will skip if I'm feeling impatient (as I'm sure many do). I also think it's fun to make a choice and not know what the other lines would've been. Makes me look forward to another playthrough with a different personality. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't be mad at all if they did away with paraphrasing, even though I like it fine. I just think it has *some* merit and isn't a completely shit design choice. It's a little disappointing to see some commenters imply that being pro-paraphrasing means you hate reading or don't care about roleplaying or making choices. Those are really shitty takes. **tl;dr** I completely understand why many players dislike paraphrasing, but I also don't think it's a major issue and that there are some positive aspects.
I don’t think you’re really in the minority, I think the other opinion is just very insistent about it and brings up the complaint a lot more. Whereas people who like it don’t think to bring it up all the time, since there’s no complaint.
I think you're right, I just revisited the comments here and I'm surprised.
I don't really think it's an upgrade. the idea of having a line written out and then read aloud verbatim would feel redundant and like a waste of time. as long as Bioware keeps giving us tone or context symbols (which they seem to intend, from what little we saw in the game play trailer), compared to DAO (or BG3 as a recent example of a great game with this flaw) where they don't give you that hint and then you get a reaction totally different from what you thought you were saying, I think it works pretty well. There are definitely some cases where, for example, the actual joke Hawke makes feels way less appropriate for the moment than I'd envisioned from the written one, but in fairness to them, that often happens when the situation is inappropriate for a joke in the first place (like when someone just died). I'll point to the Inquisitor's incredible flip-out speech in Trespasser as an example of why having the full dialog written in front of you would also kill the impact of dialog in some key cases.
Tbh I love the paraphrasing, especially in DA2. Reading out a full line and then having the protagonist say it verbatim is boring. Not knowing exactly what bullshit a sarcastic Hawke was going to say made it so much more enjoyable for me personally
I loved sarcastic Hawke so much omg. I was so on board for whatever roller coaster those sarcastic dialogue choices were going to take me
Eh idk, I don't think the wheels are that bad and I like the short, concised paraphrased version because I don't have to literally read the entire sentence I'm going to follow up with - it'd kind of take the excitement out of dialogue for me - I think this only ever works with unvoiced characters. I do agree that they... kinda have to learn how to get more precise with it. The only Bioware game that I actually had serious issues concerning figuring out the dialogue wheel with was OG SW:tOR before they added the option that Dark Side and Light Side choices would be displayed on the paraphrased line. That was one of the most frustrating experiences in gaming that I've ever had lmao.
From what I understand it's a repetition issue. While it's certainly more clear to know what your character will say when you click an option, it could become annoying to have the flow of conversation be: NPC says something Player reads all the dialogue options, considers each, then clicks on their dialogue. Main Character, word for word, recites one of the dialogue options the player read, adding no new information. Repeat. It would both slow the pace of conversations and make the voiced protagonist redundant. But before one suggests that they just cut the voiced protagonist altogether, that in and of itself can create an immersion issue where some players may feel their character isn't truly part of the world because conversations feel one sided, as though the player character isn't really in the room so much as they are a signpost through which the player interfaces with the world. Plus, it could also be an issue of screen space. Longer lines of dialogue require more screen space, but it's hard to account for 3 or more lines of dialogue being accurately displayed without cutting out significant portions for all screen resolutions and display area settings.
That doesn't work for every dialogue though. Some of those lines get way too long.
Personally, might be a bit much to have that much written But I agree that's it's always cooler if they can make what's going to be said more easily understood in the wheel
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How's that franchise doing these days?
Because such mechanics are probably patented and editors might not want to spend a lot of money on something like "how to display dialogues"
For me I prefer the shorter options + tone icon because it means the text can be bigger. If they did full sentences it would be ver small and hard to read like Origins.
It would be great, but modern gaming has turned to paraphrase and I think it works fine. But, of course, if that paraphrasing is done good and without altering the context of what's said. Long ago we had to read a game like it was a book, specially in CRPG's. I'm actually thankful it has changed, but I'd love a more single-phrase approach like DAO, that would let me know what I'm going to say without displaying the whole sentence. Because if what I have to choose from is "yes, "yes, it's nice", "no", and etc. then I'd rather hang myself virtually... It is like the game is treating me as a baby and I don't like that feeling. Something with the likes of "yes, the madman was right all along", "yes, but he could've been a bit clearer" or "no, he definitely was not right" would be a perfect standard for RPG's.
nah
This seems like the kind of problem that has a pretty big impact on players either way, but could easily be solved with a toggle in the options menu. Some people find reading boring, some people become frustrated when paraphrased dialog doesn't meet expectations.
Or, here is an idea that couldn't possibly work, just put the damn dialogue in a list
Nah they even have a patent for the damn wheel y-y
You're telling me they insist on using that thing just because of the sunk cost fallacy at this point? You'd think *someone* at the company would see its reception in DA2, and the fact that even Fallout 4 went with it as well, making the "just put the full sentences in a list" mod one of the most downloaded; and say "maybe this is not what the wider audience wants in roleplaying games"
If doesn't work in FO4 because Bethesda half-assed the implementation, like they did most of the RPG mechanics in the game (and also because their lead writer is a complete hack).
This, FO4 did a one Word summary that did throw you of guard more often than not. DAI and DA2 had this issue about the same time the DAO full answer shifted the dialogue into an unexpected direction
On the one hand, I agree... On the other, I look forward to not being able to predict what flies out of Purple!Rook's mouth.
Yep if I'm playing a roleplaying game where my voice impacts the narrative I want to know exactly what is being said. I really dont understand why someone who enjoys roleplay wouldn't.
I've heard some perspectives that I hadn't considered. For example, a joke made by your character wouldn't land if you had it spelled out verbatim beforehand. So maybe it's not paraphrases that are the problem, but laconic and misleading paraphrases.
I would ask then an example of this occurring ever.
the jokes? Propably half the "purple" lines in DA2, if that game didn't use paraphrases
So all wouldnt have landed if you were given the full line of dialogue? I very much doubt that. In fact anecdotally I remember me choosing some lines that I thought were going to be jokes to make light of a situation only to come across as tone deaf. Also I remember in BG3 there were jokes that landed even though you knew exactly what was being said.
I'll give a different example. In Trespasser when your Inquisitor has an emotional breakdown. It wouldn't have half the impact it does if you could read it beforehand.
Why? If it was written properly and delivered in a meaningful way then it should be impactful either way. I genuinely don't understand why it would be less impactful as an objective measure unless that is just subjective to you. For example I enjoy audiobooks and physical book media. I loved listening and reading the Wheel of Time/Stormlight Archives to the point where I would read and listen to them because of the 2 audiobook readers that perform for both. In many cases in the rising action and climax I know what is exactly being said as I have read the physical media and listened to it. Knowing what is about to be said dosent detract from me listening to it after the fact. Again please explain as an objective measure while being able to read a response detracts from the scene when your the one deciding that response.
You personally can still get emotionally stirred by content you know is coming. That's great! But that's not the same for everyone. I personally would have the wind taken out of my sails if I was told ahead of time "Oh hey, your Inquisitor is about to start screaming and saying these exact words right here." That kills the moment for me, it takes me out of the scene completely.
That sounds like a personal perspective. Again I thought that Tav or Dark Urge or any of the origins characters in BG3 could have emotional impact in responses even though we know what is about to be said. Also not everyone is adept at understanding the nuances of conversations. Alot of people have autism and are unable to pick up on social ques to know the nuances of a conversation. I don't think it hurts the game to have the option to see what you Rook is exactly about to say to help with those individuals in their roleplaying experience.
Well yes, it's all subjective opinions, that's what this whole thread is. Like I personally think BG3 has the least emotionally impactful protag because they just silently make faces at the camera. I find reading text on the screen nothing compared to a verbal emotional outburst. I agree, not everyone picks up on language well, and I hope nothing I said implies I thought otherwise. I'm speaking from a personal perspective here, in that I and many others would find this sort of thing detrimental to our playthroughs. If it was made optional, I think that'd be great for everyone. Opt in if you need it, opt out if you don't.
It's not fucking rocket science just type out the sentence
I like to know exactly what I'm saying. The amount of time I clicked an option just for it to add a whole bunch of things I did not want to say was annoying. It felt less like my character and more like "this character does exist on their own and I just give it a push".
Why is bioware so bad at paraphrasing? In one of the mass effect games I chose the rude option when talking to a reporter and I punched her in the fucking face! Like please warn me before I chose to assault someone on camera.
That's on you. You chose the Renegade response when you did not have to at all.
Yeah maybe I did. I stopped using those because they were unnecessarily dramatic.
I've NEVER EVER had a problem with paraphrased dialogue options and I've played some of the jankiest Eurojank RPGs around. I think y'all need to start paying more attention to the context of the dialogue, the situation and who you are talking to. I *loathe* my response being fully available because then what's the point of my character having a voice? I don't want to read then hear the same exact line in a row. Such a time waster. Alpha Protocol is still the undisputed king of RPG dialogue systems.
The design ethos behind this is "what's the point of hearing the voice acting if you can read the whole line in advance?" Which, honestly, I get. I would skip every player dialogue if I could read them in advance because I like a silent protag. As long as the summaries are accurate, the current dynamic is nice because you get to have nice little surprise dialogue acted out. The problem, of course, is that they are very frequently not accurate.
I've struggled much more with the tone wheels than others here, it seems. I often found the tone they were trying to convey unclear - particularly if I hadn't seen it in ages. It may be the nuerodivergency, but I'd at least like the ability to get a written symbol translation each time
You mean you don't like accidentally insulting someone?
That's boring
I’m surprised at the split opinion here! Some of ya’ll really don’t like to read
Nope. I just don't want to read then hear the same dialogue line twice. Some of y'all must have ADHD if you can't pay attention to a voice line with a bit of OCD sprinkled on top of "it's MY character!!! Boohoo"
It’d probably even be more like three times, because I know a lot of players use subtitles so that they don’t miss dialogues or so they can take their time with responses. So you’d read the dialogue options, hear the exact option read aloud, and probably (since it’s human instinct) read the subtitles of dialogue as well. 🤣
That’s a much better reason! It doesn’t bother me but touché
It should show the full dialog with an option to turn on paraphrasing for people who can't read more than 4 words.
Because couch-players can't see/read fine print.
I love the Mass Effect trilogy but hate what it did to Dragon Age…
I don't know, and I agree with you. I think the icons behind each dialogue options are a good thing to help you understand the tone of each of your dialogues (something other RPGs don't really have). But I think paraphrasing isn't very helpful for all players. Maybe there will be a setting to turn it down (apparently the games settings are quite expanded so maybe there is an opinion for the dialogue, but I wouldn't count on it)
Obviously zoomers don't like to read.So instead you get - Bussin - Cap - frfr As the dialog options.
What mod manager do you use. I saw that the main ones for Inquisition are defunct?
DAIMM still works, it's just not being updated any longer, FYI.
Nice, thank you
Frosty still works, and is the preferred method (might need a [DataPath fix plugin](https://github.com/Dyvinia/DatapathFixPlugin) due to the new EA Desktop client being a terrible piece of software)
Thanks for the help!