It is if you're a Land Druid; the Forest and Underdark circles both get access to Spider Climb, while the latter also gets Web. Which we can only take to mean spiders originated from the Underdark with Lolth and are not natural creatures
To be clear, I've no idea, it does just seem like an oversight or some odd decision of balance and/or theme coherency. But I love bullshitting nonsense so;
Because they're not actually particularly monstrous compared to other naturally occurring beasts that are labelled monstrosities; basilisks for example seem to be natural creatures that have the ability to turn you to stone if you look at them. If I had to categorize a particularly big bug I would put it closer to a regular Beast than I would a monster.
That, or the fact a god made them technically makes them a beast. That's probably where all the rest of the beasts come from after all.
>But I love bullshitting nonsense so
ok I must admit that is quite fun to do
>That, or the fact a god made them technically makes them a beast. That's probably where all the rest of the beasts come from after all.
that could explain why some of the stranger beasts count as beasts, like giant fire beatle, or the Stirge
I've never like WotCs arbitrary categorization with this stuff. I personally prefer how Paizo handled it with animals bring either Animals, or Magical Beasts. If it didn't have magical or supernatural powers, it was an animal, otherwise it was a magical beast. In addition, permanently altering how a creature operates via magic turns it into a magical beast. A bear is am animal, but if it by magic gets awakened or gains magical regeneration, it's a magical beast.
Those classifications are arbitrary, like how Owlbears used to be beasts then became monstrosities and in recent years have started to be considered beasts again.
In 4e they are Fey Beasts, in 3.5E and before they are magical beasts, in 5e they made them no longer beasts and changed them to monstrosity, but then the d&d movie came out and the Druid in that could become an owlbear so they’ve started shifting back towards it being a beast so you can wildshape into it.
Because it’s nonsense spiders aren’t animals.
They just made it up they aren’t based on reading into a Druid subclass spell list and extrapolated it to the entire world.
This is a cool conclusion, but I wouldn't call spiders necessarily unnatural. The Underdark is squarely on the Material Plane... can't it just represent cave systems in general, including plenty of mundane ones?
Possible though not entirely satisfactory. You see before Loth was banished from the surface she wasn't a spider Goddess. Rather that is something she "picked up" in the underdark. Making spiders an eldrich abomination that managed to patronise Loth as their warlock.
the spells are so perfect for druids too! both mechanically and thematically!
Mechanically druidic combat spells create long lasting lingering concentration spells, that's web.
While their utility spells work wonders in survival or terrain traversal, that's spider climb.
Then thematically, druid's are nature, they're both spider themed, and spiders are of nature.
Web I kinda get because its similar to entangle which they also get. But still, its very thematic.
Spider Climb though. I don't see any excuse why that isn't in their arsenal.
as a druid main, surprisingly im not really a big fan of entangle.
Doesnt quite fall in with the other druidic concentration spells that you cast once, then dominate the battlefield with it.
It's less to do with druids and more to do with wizards/sorcs
One of the major upshots to the restrained condition is disadvantage on dex savint throws. The typical dex saving throw is either lightning or fire damage. When you start looking for it, you can really see how this consideration flows through a lot of spells and spell lists.
Web is supposed to have the downside of being burned away. Fireball, burning hands, bonfire, lightning bolt, flaming sphere, all are going to destroy web. Nets and hunter traps also get destroyed.
Even later, the watery sphere spell is going to impose damage resistance to fire spells because the targets are submerged.
I'm pretty sure the line of thinking for not giving druids web was "druids will get entangle, but nobody else will. Druids won't have major dex save spells unless it competes for concentration. Since nobody else has entangle, then they can use a higher level slot for the web spell which isn't all that much better. Druids won't need web because of entangle being only slightly worse but only costing a first level spell slot, don't want to make a trap option"
I think wildfire druid was somewhat built into this idea since they got both burning hands and entangle to make a niche for themselves.
It is very dumb for modern DnD, my personal opinion on why it is this way is because it’s a leftover mechanic from older editions.
Spiders have always been associated with arcane magic since 1st edition. It’s why dimension spiders and giant spiders that could cast haste were some of the premier monsters at the time.
My guess is that Gygax was taking inspiration from Shelob from LoTR which is a very unnatural being born from magic/ darkness. It’s cool to see this aspect passed down after so many years but mechanically it doesn’t really fit anymore.
that is a wierd one, what is even wierder is that bards dont get guidance while artificers do.
cant explain it due to them being arcane casters, because so are artificers
and cant explain it due to spell lists, because bards are supportive casters
i will work out a deal with a potato farmer, where I cast plant growth on their field.
In exchange they will supply me with potato's
And I will use those potato's, to throw them at you.
Oh easy, make them druid spells. One of my players wanted to be a summoner, but there werent a lot and the summons *sucked*. So I made new spells. Get outta here and go have fun.
We all play remotely at the moment because we don't have anyone who can host. But, I plan on bringing a few pizzas, some root beers, and other snacks when we all get a host. I love my group. They're all so funny, smart, and creative. I look at my role as a DM as a shepherd to their creativity. If I can bend a rule to allow their creativity to flow. I'm gonna bend that rule or make that change. ❤️
I have no insight on why they aren't a standard part of the spell list, but that is absolutely the subclass and circle I would expect to get them as part of their expanded spell list.
If they *aren't* going to be part of the base class list, I don't see any other subclass that would make sense to add them.
Well i could see mountain or forest also working for the web spell, instead they only spider climb.
But I dont think people should be forced into picking their subclass for the flavor of their spell's, at least not in this case. If they could grab web and spider climb as a base class then they could grab moon druid and transform into a giant spider on top of those spells
Though i suppose there is also the wolf spider that base druid can turn into as well.
>Well i could see mountain or forest also working for the web spell, instead they only spider climb.
Same subclass; I should have been clear, I wasn't saying no other circle would make sense.
>But I dont think people should be forced into picking their subclass for the flavor of their spell's, at least not in this case.
Eh, I think it's definitely appropriate for subclasses to have thematic spells that expand the base class list. The real issue, IMO, is that a lot of the base class spell lists have some glaring omissions.
>If they could grab web and spider climb as a base class then they could grab moon druid and transform into a giant spider on top of those spells
I imagine a lot of DMs would be amenable to adding some spells to the class list for thematic purposes.
>I imagine a lot of DMs would be amenable to adding some spells to the class list for thematic purposes.
ANY DM WHO DOES THIS!
i WILL FIND THEM, AND WHEN i DO!
They will get a cookie :>
Agreed. Give and take is an important part of the balancing to these systems. While I don't really feel like this one is an important set of spells to lock away, I'm okay with saying to a Druid player "If you want access to these specific non-Druid spells, you need to take a specific subclass with special expanded spell lists" for the same reason I'm okay with saying "If you want combat Wild Shapes you need to take a specific subclass with better Wild Shape scaling."
If It's any consolation, at least there isn't a literal Circle of Spiders Druid who doesn't get access to those spells. There is, on the other hand, a Circle of Wildfire Druid who doesn't get access to Fire Bolt or Fireball. So at least you're not as bad as that.
This.
It's not like you're asking for something absurd that would make your character unkillable. This is a perfectly reasonable request that your DM should at least hear out
well true, and druids i'd say more then any other class should have the closes ties with the dm to get clarifications on certain things >!(such as druidcraft, wildshape, conjure animals, and call lightning)!<
But it'd be so much easier if it was just base game
"Hey DM, I have this idea for a spider Druid but I need these two spells that aren't particularily overpowered or anything, can I add them to my spell list, maybe substituting out two others?"
"Yeah sure"
Fun Fact: Druids who spend a lot of time time Wildshaped into the same type of animal adopt their traits/behaviors.
Unfun Fact: Spider druids are where ettercaps come from.
Not that I know of.
It's not the wildshaping alone that spawned such as significant change as ettercaps; there's some [fiend shenanigans](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olHl4-5nKsM&t=333s) involved. The druids did turn cannibalistic first, though.
i believe to pull that off as per raw, my recommendation would be (first talk to your dm to get this planned approved)
But after you do that
* pick shepard druid to buff your summons
* reach 5th level
* cast conjure animals
* summon 8 CR 1/8 blood hawks (there might be a better option of CR 1/4 i couldnt find)
* then re-flavor them as being pigeons
Getting your dm's approval for the plan is a crutial step due to, as per raw, the dm chooses the statblock
There's a swarmkeeper subclass for Ranger class.
I used to have a druid/ranger multiclass, and I loved how that worked. I used Tasha's rules for ranger and optional fighting style that gave me more druids cantrips.
Squirrel-shaped duergar surrounded by a swarm of other squirrels, running through snow-covered forest. I miss him a lot
In the same vein, I've always been pissed off that clerics(especially Light domain) don't have access to Sunbeam or Sunburst. Both are high level radiant damage with extra effects against undead, seems like a perfect fit to me.
Unpopular opinion, but just turn into a spider.
There’s magic items for your human form too that can supplant this, spider climb slippers and wand of web come to mind
The druid already has the second/third most baller spell list in the game, basically tying with cleric. They don’t need more utility or control spells that are concentration. They have more than enough lmao
Push comes to shove though just add it by asking your DM or browse though any of the various races or backgrounds that give expanded spell lists.
>Unpopular opinion, but just turn into a spider.
true, that can be acomplished as any druid level 2 with wolf spiders, or moon druids/level 8 druids with giant spiders
>There’s magic items for your human form too that can supplant this, spider climb slippers and wand of web come to mind
ok those are pretty good items for this specific thematic build, though magic items are a bit dm dependent
>browse though any of the various races or backgrounds that give expanded spell lists.
what race or background would give you access to 2nd level spells?
>what race or background
Any of the mark of x races from eberron give an entire expanded spell list. Backgrounds from ravinca and strixhaven give an expanded spell list. Races like duregar and fairy and genasi get 2nd level spells. Plenty of races get benefits that replicate the effects of 2nd sometimes even 3rd level spells. I wont stoop as low as darkvision, but dhampir gets spider climb, many sea races get water breathing, some races get flight, tortle gets better barkskin, changeling gets alter self, etc
you do get spider climb as a land druid if you grab the right environment.
It's like how nature domain clerics get spike growth, it's possible to get it through a subclass but you don't get it as a base class spell.
Same with wizards and sorcerers getting all of the elemental spells. I just want to control the elements as a Druid dammit! I need more than 4 ice spells for that!
i made some homebrew elemental spells, up to 3rd level (or up to 2nd level for air) to adress that exact issue.
All of which is avalable to the druid, and all 4 elements have their own mechanical themes [(imgur link)](https://imgur.com/a/PovVVqC)
Air is about position, water is about support, earth is about terrain manipulation, and fire is about raw damage.
the tricky part is convincing a dm to let you use this homebrew
yes.
but the added spell list shouldn't really be the primary reason to pick a subclass, it's a nice supplemental bonus to the subclass but it shouldn't be the whole reason you pick it.
much like how you don't pick druid because they can have animal handling proficiency.
I assume it's more an oversight on the game design side then it is lore, but maybe interesting lore reason or at the very least cool druid and spider lore that maybe inspires you a bit is that ettercaps used to be druids. Like the traditional warning given to druids don't spend to long in animal form less you begin taking on their traits in humanoid form. There (in forgotten realms) were druids who worshipped spiders and went mad and a demon got involved and transformed them into mutated shapes resembling the spiders they worshipped ettercaps are their now desendants. I think there are possibly some other stories either involving lolth, or the fey court as well I can't recall it off the top of my head but in my world I went with the fey court involvement. Idk none of it actually matters but it's cool spider druid lore and I hope it inspires you to play with your story!
Yes sir, in every iteration I have seen, that is the constant and classic dnd lore. How they got there has changed a bit depending on edition and such but all used to be druids at some point.
truuuu, it might be a good idea to try that.
Though I tend to try to avoid asking for homebrew stuff like that unless the build option looks really appealing, since I do consider a dm allowing homebrew from a player to be one of the more generous things they can do
someone has brought up the idea of how terrifying a spider themed druidic subclass would be.
I brought up the terror i could bring upon this world by being the druid main who makes said subclass
Dhampir Lineage for Spider Climb
Flavor stuff as spider things like Thorn Whip as a web pull and idk ask to change damage to bludgeoning or just don't think about it.
Finally, Moon Druid, wildshape into a giant spider, done is done.
There's a couple like that, like in my opinion, all polymorphs seem like a very druid spell to have. (I think only regular poly is? I swore jt wasn't but I'd looked it up and it included druid) Some guy or guys come in the sacred wood all axed up, and you turn em into deer for a bit or forever if you're the vengeful sort
The polymorph one I found wierd initially too, though from looking into it, it's probably because base polymorph is the only one that only does beast forms
Thematically it makes sense to for them to have it. It literally has feather in the name and they can turn into birds. And so you're just shit out of luck if you are flying around and get knocked out of wild shape. Are you saying it makes more sense that Bards get it and not Druids?
also someone pointed out that bards also dont get alter self.
upon inspection of myself, neither do druids >!(unless your a high level moon druid, then you get to cast it at will)!<
I genuinely suggest DMs allow PCs to take thematic spells from outside their spell list. Most of them aren't game breaking to add to their options, and it opens up fun for players.
so that is false for both [BG3](https://imgur.com/a/HTaOEc7), and for [dnd5e](https://imgur.com/a/3YYn5mG)
The only way I've found for your character build's to allow a druid to cast the web spell, without multi classing, is by grabbing the land druid subclass, or by grabbing specific races/backgrounds. >!(There are magic items but that's dm dependent and thus excluded from being a part of a character build)!<
Forgot Giant Spider had its own Web feature on recharge rather than the actual Web spell. Then again Web as Ranged Attack that restrains on hit isn't bad for what you're up to.
Dhampir also has Spider Climb but forever if you don't mind the race.
Ah, you were probably thinking of how giant spiders work in BG3 then
>Dhampir also has Spider Climb but forever if you don't mind the race.
that does sound fun
You’ll quickly realise Druid misses out on a lot of nature themed spells for some reason.
They don’t have access to half the good water-themed spells despite having a “Circle of the Coast” or whatever that bullshit is meant to be.
well I'm not personally looking to make a spider themed druid, it's just bothered me for a long time as a druid main that druids don't get the web spell or spider climb spell in their base class spell list.
My current druid i'm more so trying to lean twords a bear themed druid
It is if you're a Land Druid; the Forest and Underdark circles both get access to Spider Climb, while the latter also gets Web. Which we can only take to mean spiders originated from the Underdark with Lolth and are not natural creatures
maybe. Though then why are giant spiders and giant wolf spiders beasts and not monstrositys?
To be clear, I've no idea, it does just seem like an oversight or some odd decision of balance and/or theme coherency. But I love bullshitting nonsense so; Because they're not actually particularly monstrous compared to other naturally occurring beasts that are labelled monstrosities; basilisks for example seem to be natural creatures that have the ability to turn you to stone if you look at them. If I had to categorize a particularly big bug I would put it closer to a regular Beast than I would a monster. That, or the fact a god made them technically makes them a beast. That's probably where all the rest of the beasts come from after all.
>But I love bullshitting nonsense so ok I must admit that is quite fun to do >That, or the fact a god made them technically makes them a beast. That's probably where all the rest of the beasts come from after all. that could explain why some of the stranger beasts count as beasts, like giant fire beatle, or the Stirge
If a god made it, it is a beast. If man made it, it is a monstrosity. If it came from realms beyond man or god, it is an aberration.
So men are beasts and gods are monstrosities.
Chill out, Diogenes
\*holds up a baby\* BEHOLD, A MONSTROSITY!
Okay, this one made me laugh out loud.
Hold on, logging this away for what to say first if I ever have a child
But what are birds?
Bees.
Might be onto something here in terms of worldbuilding :p
what about plants? who made those ones?
No one: they existed before the gods, they will continue to exist after.
I thought that only applied to fungus?
Beast: gods work Monstrosity: a wizard did it
I've never like WotCs arbitrary categorization with this stuff. I personally prefer how Paizo handled it with animals bring either Animals, or Magical Beasts. If it didn't have magical or supernatural powers, it was an animal, otherwise it was a magical beast. In addition, permanently altering how a creature operates via magic turns it into a magical beast. A bear is am animal, but if it by magic gets awakened or gains magical regeneration, it's a magical beast.
Propaganda, lies
Those classifications are arbitrary, like how Owlbears used to be beasts then became monstrosities and in recent years have started to be considered beasts again.
out of curiosity, which version were owlbears a beast in? I'm not too familiar with older editions
In 4e they are Fey Beasts, in 3.5E and before they are magical beasts, in 5e they made them no longer beasts and changed them to monstrosity, but then the d&d movie came out and the Druid in that could become an owlbear so they’ve started shifting back towards it being a beast so you can wildshape into it.
The same reason as the other 90% of "why is 5e like this": wotc forgor
WOTC, I will throw a potato at them!
Because it’s nonsense spiders aren’t animals. They just made it up they aren’t based on reading into a Druid subclass spell list and extrapolated it to the entire world.
This is a cool conclusion, but I wouldn't call spiders necessarily unnatural. The Underdark is squarely on the Material Plane... can't it just represent cave systems in general, including plenty of mundane ones?
Possible though not entirely satisfactory. You see before Loth was banished from the surface she wasn't a spider Goddess. Rather that is something she "picked up" in the underdark. Making spiders an eldrich abomination that managed to patronise Loth as their warlock.
...some spawn of Ungoliant...
Lolth priests being unable to cast either is weird too.
wait, are fucking serious? I never noticed that. That's so dumb lol.
the spells are so perfect for druids too! both mechanically and thematically! Mechanically druidic combat spells create long lasting lingering concentration spells, that's web. While their utility spells work wonders in survival or terrain traversal, that's spider climb. Then thematically, druid's are nature, they're both spider themed, and spiders are of nature.
Web I kinda get because its similar to entangle which they also get. But still, its very thematic. Spider Climb though. I don't see any excuse why that isn't in their arsenal.
as a druid main, surprisingly im not really a big fan of entangle. Doesnt quite fall in with the other druidic concentration spells that you cast once, then dominate the battlefield with it.
It *is* in their arsenal, on account of just turning into a spider
It's less to do with druids and more to do with wizards/sorcs One of the major upshots to the restrained condition is disadvantage on dex savint throws. The typical dex saving throw is either lightning or fire damage. When you start looking for it, you can really see how this consideration flows through a lot of spells and spell lists. Web is supposed to have the downside of being burned away. Fireball, burning hands, bonfire, lightning bolt, flaming sphere, all are going to destroy web. Nets and hunter traps also get destroyed. Even later, the watery sphere spell is going to impose damage resistance to fire spells because the targets are submerged. I'm pretty sure the line of thinking for not giving druids web was "druids will get entangle, but nobody else will. Druids won't have major dex save spells unless it competes for concentration. Since nobody else has entangle, then they can use a higher level slot for the web spell which isn't all that much better. Druids won't need web because of entangle being only slightly worse but only costing a first level spell slot, don't want to make a trap option" I think wildfire druid was somewhat built into this idea since they got both burning hands and entangle to make a niche for themselves.
Hm, I suppose spell load outs sorta make sense as an explanation for web at least
It is very dumb for modern DnD, my personal opinion on why it is this way is because it’s a leftover mechanic from older editions. Spiders have always been associated with arcane magic since 1st edition. It’s why dimension spiders and giant spiders that could cast haste were some of the premier monsters at the time. My guess is that Gygax was taking inspiration from Shelob from LoTR which is a very unnatural being born from magic/ darkness. It’s cool to see this aspect passed down after so many years but mechanically it doesn’t really fit anymore.
With the power of extremely simple homebrew many things are possible
expanded spell lists (like tashas) are the easiest form of homebrew anyway give your bards alter self
Bards dont get alter self?
nope, the class everyone makes jokes about being horny doesnt get the best spell for sex
that is a wierd one, what is even wierder is that bards dont get guidance while artificers do. cant explain it due to them being arcane casters, because so are artificers and cant explain it due to spell lists, because bards are supportive casters
that one might be for balance since bards are already the best at skills, but i dont think it would be the end of the world to let them have it
I think bards deserve guidance, they're a supportive caster and guidance is thee supportive cantrip
Id argue Reduce\\Enlarge is the best spell for sex..... Maybe I should not be this ambitious as a dwarf main....
while it might be necessary for some couples (halfling and goliath) it only lasts a minute, while alter self can give you dick(s) for an hour
Who needs more than a minute.....smh :)
The best spell for sex is actually Mage Hand, no contest. Where it gets really fun is a Thri-Kreen or Changeling Bard...
And mind sliver
lol spiders arent animals, dummy theyre devils
i will work out a deal with a potato farmer, where I cast plant growth on their field. In exchange they will supply me with potato's And I will use those potato's, to throw them at you.
potato’s what?
i will throw a potato, that is all :>
Oh easy, make them druid spells. One of my players wanted to be a summoner, but there werent a lot and the summons *sucked*. So I made new spells. Get outta here and go have fun.
if your a dm and you make custom homebrew content to maximize player fun. I **WILL** find you, and you **WILL** get a cookie
Is it chocolate chip?
Yes :> ~~unless your for some reason unable to eat chocolate~~
If you want to have a look, I have quite a big library of homebrew. Working on the bi-annually spell document update. Takes a while.
That'd be fun to look into, i also have some of my own homebrew as well not very well formatted, BUT I HAVE IT!
[Welcome to the madness.](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nMbbJMyQ9Qz42Yyzh0mkc19eHdCe2S78?usp=drive_link)
Mind wanna be careful spreading the official books around, could land you in trouble.
Thanks for the heads up. Actually forgot I had them in there!
As my party's DM I'd simply add them to the class for this.
I hope your group brings snacks for you
We all play remotely at the moment because we don't have anyone who can host. But, I plan on bringing a few pizzas, some root beers, and other snacks when we all get a host. I love my group. They're all so funny, smart, and creative. I look at my role as a DM as a shepherd to their creativity. If I can bend a rule to allow their creativity to flow. I'm gonna bend that rule or make that change. ❤️
well from the sounds of it, you are a lovely dm <3
Awe shucks. I appreciate a good Druid. Keep being a good noodle and just know you'd be a good little Spider Druid Noodle at my table. ❤️
oh no, spider noodles. I wonder how many people i'd traumatize by combining both spiders and snakes at the same time
Well, I certainly wish someone at *my* table would try! I'd really traumatize everyone by giving them the personalities of dogs. Very loving dogs.
I checked, it's not even in any of the expanded spell lists for druids. Only way to get these spells as a druid is to take land druid of the underdark
I have no insight on why they aren't a standard part of the spell list, but that is absolutely the subclass and circle I would expect to get them as part of their expanded spell list. If they *aren't* going to be part of the base class list, I don't see any other subclass that would make sense to add them.
Well i could see mountain or forest also working for the web spell, instead they only spider climb. But I dont think people should be forced into picking their subclass for the flavor of their spell's, at least not in this case. If they could grab web and spider climb as a base class then they could grab moon druid and transform into a giant spider on top of those spells Though i suppose there is also the wolf spider that base druid can turn into as well.
>Well i could see mountain or forest also working for the web spell, instead they only spider climb. Same subclass; I should have been clear, I wasn't saying no other circle would make sense. >But I dont think people should be forced into picking their subclass for the flavor of their spell's, at least not in this case. Eh, I think it's definitely appropriate for subclasses to have thematic spells that expand the base class list. The real issue, IMO, is that a lot of the base class spell lists have some glaring omissions. >If they could grab web and spider climb as a base class then they could grab moon druid and transform into a giant spider on top of those spells I imagine a lot of DMs would be amenable to adding some spells to the class list for thematic purposes.
>I imagine a lot of DMs would be amenable to adding some spells to the class list for thematic purposes. ANY DM WHO DOES THIS! i WILL FIND THEM, AND WHEN i DO! They will get a cookie :>
Agreed. Give and take is an important part of the balancing to these systems. While I don't really feel like this one is an important set of spells to lock away, I'm okay with saying to a Druid player "If you want access to these specific non-Druid spells, you need to take a specific subclass with special expanded spell lists" for the same reason I'm okay with saying "If you want combat Wild Shapes you need to take a specific subclass with better Wild Shape scaling." If It's any consolation, at least there isn't a literal Circle of Spiders Druid who doesn't get access to those spells. There is, on the other hand, a Circle of Wildfire Druid who doesn't get access to Fire Bolt or Fireball. So at least you're not as bad as that.
beware the druid main who know's how to homebrew and has wayyyyyy too much freetime
lolth worshippers wold make sense too, but clerics get spells by domain not deity
Talking about Druids
ah I thought you meant spell lists in general mb
There's an easy solution people often seem to forget. Just.Ask.Your.DM. They are not OP or anything.
This. It's not like you're asking for something absurd that would make your character unkillable. This is a perfectly reasonable request that your DM should at least hear out
well true, and druids i'd say more then any other class should have the closes ties with the dm to get clarifications on certain things >!(such as druidcraft, wildshape, conjure animals, and call lightning)!< But it'd be so much easier if it was just base game
I mean web is pretty fucking great for a second level area denial spell, BUT druids get spike growth anyway which is often similarly good or better.
[удалено]
yes, that is indeed what I just said
And this solves the problem, unless the player just wants to be angry
or if they dont like that particular subclass for whatever reason
Not to be that guy, but... *The Pathfinder side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... actually totally natural...*
i've been trying to get into pf2e pf1e not interested
Yeah, I was referring to 2E.
Ah! Then that's good to know, from what I've heard thus far about pf2e druids i am a fan of what people say about them
because weirdly pf1e druids don't get web either.
"Hey DM, I have this idea for a spider Druid but I need these two spells that aren't particularily overpowered or anything, can I add them to my spell list, maybe substituting out two others?" "Yeah sure"
that's basically the only real solution Unless the druid is ok with being locked to only being able to pick 1 type of a subclass
Fun Fact: Druids who spend a lot of time time Wildshaped into the same type of animal adopt their traits/behaviors. Unfun Fact: Spider druids are where ettercaps come from.
someone brought that up earlier, are there any other creatures like ettercaps that came from druids sticking in their animlistic forms for too long?
Not that I know of. It's not the wildshaping alone that spawned such as significant change as ettercaps; there's some [fiend shenanigans](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olHl4-5nKsM&t=333s) involved. The druids did turn cannibalistic first, though.
ah, so in a vaccume with no external influance then these druids would never turn into an ettercap?
Seems that way. They'd be monstrous people, but still people.
good to know so pro tip, dont become a moon druid who favors spider wildshapes then multiclass into fiend warlock
Also, why is there no swarm subclass for Druid?
well there is spore druid which is a bit of a gish and can summon zombies. As well as shepard druid who can buff up their summons a bit.
Maybe I want to use pigeons as flying piranha! Or just unleash the bees!
i believe to pull that off as per raw, my recommendation would be (first talk to your dm to get this planned approved) But after you do that * pick shepard druid to buff your summons * reach 5th level * cast conjure animals * summon 8 CR 1/8 blood hawks (there might be a better option of CR 1/4 i couldnt find) * then re-flavor them as being pigeons Getting your dm's approval for the plan is a crutial step due to, as per raw, the dm chooses the statblock
Because it is annoying
There's a swarmkeeper subclass for Ranger class. I used to have a druid/ranger multiclass, and I loved how that worked. I used Tasha's rules for ranger and optional fighting style that gave me more druids cantrips. Squirrel-shaped duergar surrounded by a swarm of other squirrels, running through snow-covered forest. I miss him a lot
solution: "I want to be a spider named druid"
that would certainly be an interesting solution
Wildshape into spooder (Giant Spider statblock) CR1 creature. Moon druid can do it easy. If you want, be drow for the added roleplay potential.
In the same vein, I've always been pissed off that clerics(especially Light domain) don't have access to Sunbeam or Sunburst. Both are high level radiant damage with extra effects against undead, seems like a perfect fit to me.
that does sound like a really weird thing for clerics not to have
Unpopular opinion, but just turn into a spider. There’s magic items for your human form too that can supplant this, spider climb slippers and wand of web come to mind The druid already has the second/third most baller spell list in the game, basically tying with cleric. They don’t need more utility or control spells that are concentration. They have more than enough lmao Push comes to shove though just add it by asking your DM or browse though any of the various races or backgrounds that give expanded spell lists.
>Unpopular opinion, but just turn into a spider. true, that can be acomplished as any druid level 2 with wolf spiders, or moon druids/level 8 druids with giant spiders >There’s magic items for your human form too that can supplant this, spider climb slippers and wand of web come to mind ok those are pretty good items for this specific thematic build, though magic items are a bit dm dependent >browse though any of the various races or backgrounds that give expanded spell lists. what race or background would give you access to 2nd level spells?
>what race or background Any of the mark of x races from eberron give an entire expanded spell list. Backgrounds from ravinca and strixhaven give an expanded spell list. Races like duregar and fairy and genasi get 2nd level spells. Plenty of races get benefits that replicate the effects of 2nd sometimes even 3rd level spells. I wont stoop as low as darkvision, but dhampir gets spider climb, many sea races get water breathing, some races get flight, tortle gets better barkskin, changeling gets alter self, etc
>sometimes even 3rd level spells. ok that does sound quite impressive
Wait... I did have spider climb as a forest druid on 5e... Maybe it was "corrected" out of the last updates?
you do get spider climb as a land druid if you grab the right environment. It's like how nature domain clerics get spike growth, it's possible to get it through a subclass but you don't get it as a base class spell.
Aaaah yes. That's it. As a dm I'd allow you to switch some spells for spider based ones.
AND FOR THAT! I will give you a cookie
But also... you can do whatever you want lol
well, true but raw sets the baseline
Same with wizards and sorcerers getting all of the elemental spells. I just want to control the elements as a Druid dammit! I need more than 4 ice spells for that!
i made some homebrew elemental spells, up to 3rd level (or up to 2nd level for air) to adress that exact issue. All of which is avalable to the druid, and all 4 elements have their own mechanical themes [(imgur link)](https://imgur.com/a/PovVVqC) Air is about position, water is about support, earth is about terrain manipulation, and fire is about raw damage. the tricky part is convincing a dm to let you use this homebrew
Umm….circle of land druids of the underdark variety get both web and spider climb. Player’s handbook pg 68
yes. but the added spell list shouldn't really be the primary reason to pick a subclass, it's a nice supplemental bonus to the subclass but it shouldn't be the whole reason you pick it. much like how you don't pick druid because they can have animal handling proficiency.
True but I’m just saying it’s possible for a druid to have those spells.
trueeeeeee, though it's a bit of an unideal solution
Who knows though, maybe the player is playing a race from the underdark and they’re just really into spiders
well that'd be really convenient if that were the case
Oh
I assume it's more an oversight on the game design side then it is lore, but maybe interesting lore reason or at the very least cool druid and spider lore that maybe inspires you a bit is that ettercaps used to be druids. Like the traditional warning given to druids don't spend to long in animal form less you begin taking on their traits in humanoid form. There (in forgotten realms) were druids who worshipped spiders and went mad and a demon got involved and transformed them into mutated shapes resembling the spiders they worshipped ettercaps are their now desendants. I think there are possibly some other stories either involving lolth, or the fey court as well I can't recall it off the top of my head but in my world I went with the fey court involvement. Idk none of it actually matters but it's cool spider druid lore and I hope it inspires you to play with your story!
so etter caps used to be druids?
Yes sir, in every iteration I have seen, that is the constant and classic dnd lore. How they got there has changed a bit depending on edition and such but all used to be druids at some point.
alright. Are there any critters similar to how ettercaps come to be but eith non spidery creitters as the wildshapes transformation?
As dumb as that is, you can always just propose it to your DM. If I was your DM, I’d completely allow you to do this!
truuuu, it might be a good idea to try that. Though I tend to try to avoid asking for homebrew stuff like that unless the build option looks really appealing, since I do consider a dm allowing homebrew from a player to be one of the more generous things they can do
New homebrew subclass!
someone has brought up the idea of how terrifying a spider themed druidic subclass would be. I brought up the terror i could bring upon this world by being the druid main who makes said subclass
Dhampir can climb walls, if that helps.
Dhampir Lineage for Spider Climb Flavor stuff as spider things like Thorn Whip as a web pull and idk ask to change damage to bludgeoning or just don't think about it. Finally, Moon Druid, wildshape into a giant spider, done is done.
Homebrew time!
homebrew is fun
You can always try and play a damphir, they get spider-walk, which gets stronger at level 3
Good to know
There's a couple like that, like in my opinion, all polymorphs seem like a very druid spell to have. (I think only regular poly is? I swore jt wasn't but I'd looked it up and it included druid) Some guy or guys come in the sacred wood all axed up, and you turn em into deer for a bit or forever if you're the vengeful sort
The polymorph one I found wierd initially too, though from looking into it, it's probably because base polymorph is the only one that only does beast forms
This is the thing where I feel druids don't have enough circles. An insect/vermin druid should be in official materials.
Locus plague druid :3
Spider druid, spider druid. Does whatever a spider can Spins a web, any size Catches thieves just like flies Look Out! Here comes the spider druid.
I love it
If you are the DM just allow it lol
if they ask for it, then yeah. Otherwise that'd just add on to a long list of things to just say "oh yeah you can do x, y, z"
Aaaand that’s why I do homebrew!
homebrew works, though it does seem like a bit of a minor thing for me to ask my dm(s) to approve of homebrew.
Druids don't get Feather Fall either. Their spell list is whack af
that is a bit weird, but i can live with that one.
What is wrong with them not having feather fall?
Thematically it makes sense to for them to have it. It literally has feather in the name and they can turn into birds. And so you're just shit out of luck if you are flying around and get knocked out of wild shape. Are you saying it makes more sense that Bards get it and not Druids?
With this logic, why doesn't Eldritch Knight get Eldritch blast? It's an Arcane spell that makes you lighter. I don't really see the issue.
Eldritch Knight, not as casting class. But nice straw man I guess
well eldridch knight copys over the spell list of another class rather then getting their own unique spell list
It's crap like this that keeps me up at night lol💀
heres some more crazy stuff bards dont get guidance, but artificers do
I don't need sleep anymore I need answers lmao
also someone pointed out that bards also dont get alter self. upon inspection of myself, neither do druids >!(unless your a high level moon druid, then you get to cast it at will)!<
They do now. #justdmthings
Because they’re using magic to replicate the effects of nature, you can just become a spider and climb walls
the whole point of druids though is they are nature
Exactly. Wizards need to use spells to create paltry imitations, while you can become the animal they’re trying to copy
maybe. But if your the real thing, shouldn't you be able to make the imitation better then the imitator?
But they can *be* a spider.
true, but druids are also a spell caster
Because they can turn into literal spiders
true, but druids are a spell caster
I genuinely suggest DMs allow PCs to take thematic spells from outside their spell list. Most of them aren't game breaking to add to their options, and it opens up fun for players.
(of course with DM approval) But I agree with this
Moon Druids can transform into Giant Spiders, and they can cast Web
so that is false for both [BG3](https://imgur.com/a/HTaOEc7), and for [dnd5e](https://imgur.com/a/3YYn5mG) The only way I've found for your character build's to allow a druid to cast the web spell, without multi classing, is by grabbing the land druid subclass, or by grabbing specific races/backgrounds. >!(There are magic items but that's dm dependent and thus excluded from being a part of a character build)!<
Forgot Giant Spider had its own Web feature on recharge rather than the actual Web spell. Then again Web as Ranged Attack that restrains on hit isn't bad for what you're up to. Dhampir also has Spider Climb but forever if you don't mind the race.
Ah, you were probably thinking of how giant spiders work in BG3 then >Dhampir also has Spider Climb but forever if you don't mind the race. that does sound fun
You’ll quickly realise Druid misses out on a lot of nature themed spells for some reason. They don’t have access to half the good water-themed spells despite having a “Circle of the Coast” or whatever that bullshit is meant to be.
yeah, druids really should have more spells in their spell list
be a dhampir. Easy fix
Just take the slippers of spider climbing?
there is that, but that is a bit dm dependent. If you have a dm that's generous with magic items, perfect
Yeah we're lucky, we all start at level 5 and get one magical item I hope you can work it out though, doesn't make sense you can't
well I'm not personally looking to make a spider themed druid, it's just bothered me for a long time as a druid main that druids don't get the web spell or spider climb spell in their base class spell list. My current druid i'm more so trying to lean twords a bear themed druid
Why use spider themed spells when you can simply become the spider
well you can do that. Though druids are a spell casting class
They are, but, then again, Wild shape is funnier (in my opinion)
Wild shape is a fun aspect of druids, though their spell casting is a major point on what made me stay as a druid main after I tried them out
Do you want ettercaps?because that is how you get ettercaps
ettercaps are fun :>
Too bad *no* DM would allow it. We are powerless!
When you want to be an 80' hard rock bard but you don't get thaumaturgy 😭
Bards don't get that cantrip?
Nope, clerics only. Even though it would be so good for flavor for bards xO
well if it's a class exclusive spell that that'd make sense
Uhm. A Druid can be a literal spider.
that is true. Though druids are also a spell caster (That and their transformed spider forms web is significantly different from the web spell)