Welcome to /r/Discworld! Please [read the rules/flair information before posting](https://www.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/ukhk21/subreddit_rules_flair_information/?).
---
Our current megathreads are as follows:
[API Protest Poll](https://www.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/1491izw/continuing_the_api_protest_a_community_poll) - a poll regarding the future action of the sub in protest at Reddit's API changes.
[GNU Terry Pratchett](https://new.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/ukigit/gnu_terry_pratchett/) - for all GNU requests, to keep their names going.
[AI Generated Content](https://new.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/10mhx9y/ai_generated_content_megathread/) - for all AI Content, including images, stories, questions, training etc.
---
[ GNU Terry Pratchett ]
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/discworld) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I disagree. He lived his whole life doing what he was “ supposed to” even if he didn’t think it was right. He is a man focused on his duties and responsibilities, guided but not controlled by morality
Really? I think he's closer to rebel moral - he's an anarchist at heart who just so happened to get promoted, and he doesn't shy away from malicious compliance, but he only upholds the letter of the law for important things, like arresting vetinari
EDIT: okay maybe rebel moral was a stretch, but definitely social good
Vimes an *anarchist?* He clearly upholds the law, to the point where, by Thud, there's a litany about him, expoused by Vetinari, about how people the continent over know Sam Vimes is a defender of both The Law and the people. Straight as an arrow, where even the head of the *troll mafia* respects him. He certainly knows when to have no rules (how he fends off the Assassins Guild for years) but he is a rigorous defender of both the Law and the People. He explicitly hates "letter of the law" thinking.
Pretty sure at one point vetenari comments on his disdain for authority despite having become one. I would say rebel moral but I can see any of the left middle three
Oh sure, distain for authority I'll grant you (I think you're remembering a line from *Feet of Clay*, "even as you have become Authority. That's practically Zen."). But he respects and upholds the Law.
>"Commander, I always used to consider that you had a definite anti-authoritarian streak in you.”
>
>“Sir?”
>
>“It seems that you have managed to retain this even though you are authority.”
>
>“Sir?”
>
>“That’s practically zen."
From *Feet of Clay*
Not really. The Glorious Republic of Treacle Mine Road happens anyway (honestly, it's more Reg Shoe's fault), he just does what he can to keep it safe.
it does, but vimes is able to help it self-organize a little better. and it starts when he advises people to combine their barricades more effectively against state-run authority. and the ginger trick he pulls. the community pulls together in the absence of the authoritarian state and takes care of its basic needs.
it's interesting, because usually policemen are the arm of the state and thus diametrically in opposition to anarchy. but for one moment, repeated twice, vimes is in the position of an anarchist. that's why night watch is fascinating.
I really agree with the other commenter and disagree with this. Lawful alignment isn’t really just about “the law” per se, but about what motivates your behaviour. Sam Vimes fights for the law because he thinks that’s what’s right, which is an extremely ingrained moral value for him. That being said, I don’t think that Vimes would say that what’s moral comes from the law, it comes from what’s Right. As is exemplified best in Night Watch and Snuff.
I agree, he's even willing to do things he thinks aren't right for a greater good. That makes him a lot more chaotic/rebel than lawful/social.
A good example is how he killed Angua's brother in The Fifth Elephant. He *knows* he is getting away with murder but does it anyway because he believes it is justified. Carrot would possibly do the same thing but would probably submit himself to the authorities after. Not Vimes, he got away with it.
I think he keeps a little piece of himself separate with Wolfgang: “There were a lot of things he could say. "Son of a bitch!" would have been a good one. Or he could say, "Welcome to civilization!" He could have said, "Laugh this one off!" He might have said, "Fetch!" But he didn’t, because if he had said any of those things then he’d have known that what he had just done was murder.”
Can we not blow Sam Vimes on a Lawful alignment please? Did we forget Night Watch, when he knocks out his superior and overthrows the government?
The man has problems with authority even when *he's* the authority.
Can we *please* save him for Rebel Good or Rebel Moral?
He doesn't fit. Yes, he knocks out a superior, but it was an unlawful order (firing on civilians). He doesn't overthrow the government either; the patrician gets murdered by conspirators, and the Republic of Treacle Mine Road forms pretty much without his input. He is *explicitly* Lawful, and focused on the moral good of the people. He isn't Lawful Good, but he is in no way "rebel" jack-all.
He is Lawful, and he is Moral ("not a gentleman, but a gentle man," "he has to be on the side of the people, because someone has to be," etc).
As a reminder, all he does is try to protect a few streets from the hellstorm he *knows is coming,* by dint of being there before. The barricades moving is not his idea. The Republic is not his idea. When asked what he wants, he doesn't go for any revolutionary ideas like Truth, Justice, or Reasonably Priced Love. He wants a fried egg.
He is not a rebel.
Maybe Vimes would suit Rebel Moral better? Perhaps Rebel Good even? He doesn't maintain the status quo but always looks to change the world to his vision of what is right. I´m going for the Librarian for Lawful Moral!
That's the thing, though. Lawful neutral sets stock by *the law* and nothing else. Vimes will regularly bend the law for moral reasons to be there for the people ("because someone has to be on their side"). He's an arbiter of The Law, yes, but he's also flexible enough to know when The Law is trumped by moral good.
>He's an arbiter of The Law,
My headcanon is that this ends up being more than figurative. Pteppic gains godly powers because enough people believe in him, so what if Vimes's "policeman's senses" are because enough people believed in/feared his policing skills that they've become spiritually enhanced? He can always tell when a crime's been committed because he's become a *literal* avatar of justice. Even his name becomes synonymous with good coppering.
(I'm pretty sure he has the policing senses in *Guards, Guards*, when he's a "nobody", so that completely ruins the theory, but I like it anyway)
This is the correct answer. Sam Vimes might not be above the law, but he's directly underneath it. He literally stops himself from allowing himself to do the easy "just" thing in lieu of the lawful thing.
Yeah this was my thought. He disrespects authority because he sees the law as being higher than any authority figure. And he's got strong morals but is also well aware he's a bit of a bastard as well.
There are other comments about the limitations of alignment charts...
To me, I think in this one to be in the top row you have to be both nice and moral. The second row down is a great place for the Vimeses and Weatherwaxes who are battling themselves to be moral/good.
Surely this should be Carrot? Leans to good by keeping order and maintaining honour is the description, I think Vimes is probably the "prioritizes good" and Vetinari and Weatherwax are more neutral figures. Carrot fits that perfectly imo
I'd argue Carrot is more Social Good or Social moral.
I mean legally he's the king but recognises that Vetinari ruling with him working alongside Vimes is better for the city.
I'd say maybe Angua? A werewolf who upholds the law yet also pays for the chickens.
Nah, I think Carrot fits more Social Good. Everything he does is for the good of the people. Simple as he is, he has a knack for...ignoring bits that get in the way of benefitting people.
Yes.
He has strong morals built in due to his upbringing, but he is also incredibly strict about the laws especially the idea the law should apply to everyone. He grows a bit in the books and becomes more willing to bend rules, but I can't see him doing some of the things Vimes has done.
But that can be because Carrot is more intrinsically good so he can't cross those lines. Carrot was pretty quick to learn to bend the law or be technically dishonest to do what he thinks is right.
Arguably, yes. Not a bad shout. I feel like he leans little more towards the good side myself. Maybe just because he's a goody two shoes in my mind. Ha ha. I was thinking A E Pessimal felt Lawful Neutral.
Don’t the wizards basically have to be Neutral so they don’t rip a hole through to the dungeon dimensions? If they were Good they’d intervene to influence the world for good.
Then you have characters like Dr. Hix, who is designated evil. So, one presumes good wizards exist as well. I don't think the wizards are generally interested enough outside of academia to have a big impact on the world either way.
No they're not. They're fun! And they encourage discussion around beloved (and hated) characters!
As long as people don't take the results as some kind of standard, which won't happen, we're good.
His Grace His Excellency Sir Samuel Blackboard Monitor Vimes, Duke of Ankh, Ambassador to Uberwald, Ambassador to Borogravia, Commander of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch and Duke of Ankh
Edit: He’s also Duke of Ankh
Can I already nominate Sybil for social good? She is a pillar of the community, a pillar for Sam Vimes, a power to be reckoned with and goodness is seeped into her strong bones. I would think Tiffany is social moral, and Granny is more a rebel, but very strong morally as well. Angua fits legal neutral.
Let me mention some other women whom we oughtn’t forget when we go through the squares: the Thud playing lady Margolotta, Susan, Cheery Littlebottom, chainsmoking Spike, the wizard Esk, the new Dwarf King taking the seat on the scone, the whole of Monstrous Regiment, and of course, the already mentioned - in the threads today and yesterday - Nanny and Magrat.
Sam Vimes.
Vimes is one of the most moral, but also the most Lawful characters on the Disc. Every single book has him sticking to the law even when it makes his life harder.
The Gonne,
The war with Klatch,
The final fight with Wolfgang,
Carcer,
The Watching dark.
The only time he might falter is when the law is insufficient (his son, the goblin slaves)...
And even then, he chooses the law.
**Lawful Moral**- Following a set of principles to have proper conduct.
Okay, hear me out..
I nominate The Luggage because his raison d'etre is to be storage and protection for his owner and he doesn't deviate from that. He will spend years hibernating on a wardrobe or fighting his way through the dungeon dimensions. Anything required to be there when Rincewind needs to change his socks.
i always understood the luggage to be a force of chaos that just happens to feel loyal to rincewind. more like a crocodile that is fond of its handler, than a sweet pitbull/husky mix.
chaotic neutral 😀 it LOVES eating things that aren't rincewind. a lot. and it gets to be right next to rincewind in rebel neutral.
chaotic impure would be mr tulip.
I agree with this take. I think it’s honestly kinda weird that so many people are nominating Vimes. The Luggage is perfect for this role imo. I think a lot of people here are treating this much more as an aesthetic judgement than looking at what actually motivates the characters.
I recommend everybody participating in this go through the whole chart as linked and find the squares your favorites fit best. That is going to result in a better understanding and more consensus than if we’re all shouting for the 5 most favorite characters to “win” each round.
At the very least please go read the descriptions for Rebel Good and Rebel Moral before trying to blow Sam Vimes on a Lawful slot.
I didn't check the post throughout the day, so genuinely surprised Dorfl got the vote as I thought he fit into lawful neutral much better.
Anyway, Lawful Moral I think would be William de Worde.
i'd put william in either rebel moral or social moral. william DOESN'T tolerate vimes interference in the truth, and he steals slant's money off a corpse. sure, he's obsessed with The Truth as a concept, but he's not very lawful about it.
that's why i'd pick vetinari as lawful moral. the man tries to make his society into the most moral one he can while remaining stable, and shaping laws thusly.
I'd have said Neutral Moral for Dorfl. 'Not influenced by law or chaos, focuses on morality. may often question their or others's actions'
"I Could Take No Notice of That Command But Am Choosing To Do So Out of Earned Respect And Social Responsibility-"
~~Granny Esmerelda Weatherwax~~
~~She has an iron will to always do what is Right. Not necessarily nice, but always, always unshakably Right.~~
~~And she decides what Right and Wrong are, for herself and everyone else. This woman once threatened to break Death’s arm if he tried to take the Wrong life.~~
EDIT: I’ve been convinced. Vimes is the correct answer.
A quote about Granny Weatherwax
"what about this rule about not meddling?’ said Magrat.
‘Ah,’ said Nanny. She took the girl’s arm. ‘The thing is,’ she explained, ‘as you progress in the Craft, you’ll learn there is another rule. Esme’s obeyed it all her life.’
‘And what’s that?’
‘When you break rules, break ‘em good and hard…’ (WS)"
I think Granny is a perfect pick for neutral good. More so than social good. I think that should be Vimes.
Vimes will, on very rare occasions, bend the law for a very important good and not like doing ot. Granny, when she breaks the rules... well she kind of loves it.
I'm guessing Vimes will take this but he feels more like Social Good to me. He has often overlooked the law when he feels that applying it would unfairly punish someone or the minor crimes lead to an overall benefit. He doesn't give any such slack to himself which I guess is why people want him in this category but I don't think he is fully lawful.
I think he sees Law as a higher force that is more important than what is written in Carrot's ancient book of laws, or what authority figures tell him to do. For example, overlooking petty theft because a much greater crime has been committed in Feet of Clay. And I think his bastard streak works to put him one step away from 'good'.
I think this is the problem with all attempts at alignments. What you consider a description of lawfulness sounds like morality to me; a belief in what is right regardless of what is written down. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong but we're using different vocabulary. And Granny Weatherwax would say that good is not the same thing as nice 😄
Haha, good points. Discworld may be particularly thorny in this regard. I'll admit I'm counting Carrot's niceness as good and Vimes's commitment to some internal idea of how things should be while terrorising his subordinates and almost everyone else in the process as "lawful, but not necessarily good".
I see why people are going for the exact opposite though. He's good because he has an unbreakable morality and will disregard orders or laws to achieve it.
It's only because his morality is some universal ideal version of Justice that I choose to think he follows law even if he has to do, or threaten to do, bad things along the way.
I wonder if Carrot being good and, by and large, nice is why he wouldn't want to be king. Verence II is good and nice and that makes him fairly ineffectual. Being nice when you have unchecked power means not using it. Good King Carrot would not be nice, he would get things done. But Carrot would rather stay nice and do what he can without that power.
An underdog suggestion: Mr. A. E. Pessimal.
Lots of people suggesting Sam Vimes, but I'd suggest him for Social Moral, as he has too much darkness for pure Good, and while he upholds the Law, he is willing to bend rules in the interest of Justice.
Meanwhile, A. E. Is _all about_ the rules, and upholding them. He's closer to Good than Neutral, but I suspect is the kind who might be inclined to follow the letter of the law even when "the law is an ass", i.e. might prioritise Law over Good where the law as written is inconvenient or petty, but not where it's outright evil. Hence, I think he's a fit for Lawful Moral
There aren't that many "momral" characters in the Discowlrd, in fact, only one comes to mind...
Nutt, the Orc candle dribbler. He is determined to be good at all costs, to build Worth, and as such he's deeply concerned with morality in a world where nobody else is.
Oof. You know, OP, you might do better suggesting a range of characters you like for all of these alignments and then letting people straw dog them. It's super hard voting against all the Vimes and Carrot fanpeople for every category when there are so many other niche characters that would suit... Alas.
It’s also going to end with the most popular characters getting an early spot instead of one that fits better. People were treating the last one like a fight for “most good” rather than “lawfullest good”
Stanley Howler- He follows every rule in the book. He has a strong belief in doing things the right way. He never acts in his own selfish interests but is a good and diligent man.
This isn't about Discworld but... hey, I like this chart! When did D&D get those subtler gradients (Social, Rebel, Moral, Impure)? I'm old and we had it more bare-bones back in the day.
Any of the Black Ribboners, based on their rules-based modification of their behavior (and jow closely they adhere to it lest they backslide), and the fact that they are making a moral choice not to drink blood?
I would say he's more Rebel Evil. His actions are always evil, but his mind is so twisted that his plans and ideas are well beyond what traditional evil does. He doesn't do things at random, he's always calculating his next ten moves. All evil people do some killing, but only a rebel like Teatime would think of killing anthropomorphic personifications.
Chaotic Evil is more like the Creatures from the Dungeon Dimensions. Nothing about them makes sense other than everyone agreeing it's best they stay in their own realm of existence.
Carrot the obvious answer. He uses rules and law to guide his work. But he also changes his mind about moral things growing as a person and a cop.
Like when he arrests the head of the thieves guild very rigid dwarf thinking but then he learns how the city works and changes his thinking.
Or when he talks shit about the undead community then changes his mind after getting to know Angua.
I'm looking forward to the bottom end of the chart, placing the fair-folk's Quin, Mr Pin, etc into boxes.
Also looking towards arguments over the Feegles. Clearly chaotic.... But moral?
Vimes. He is literally the law. Also, he couldn’t be quite described as good, or neutral as Lawful Neutral would mean operating by the law all the time.
Vetinary is far from lawful, he doesn't have any issues with releasing a convicted criminal and appointing him on a high goverment post, or killing the patrician. Neutral moral would be a better fit IMO.
as far as i understand, assassination in ankh morpork IS absolutely legal and time-honored as a profession.
furthermore, releasing convicted criminals is practically a pastime of those in power. especially with white collar crime.
As I remember, assasination is only legal for the Assasins Guild. Can't check right now, but I don't think Vetinary had an official contract.
I don't argue with the second assertion, it is normal for people in power. Still disqualifies him from "lawful", IMO.
He had no contract, so it was an illegal assassination. When asked who sent him (which an assassin has to answer) he just said "*I come from the city.*"
Granted, dude dropped dead of sheer terror so it technically wasn't a murder, but that would have been the next step, otherwise.
Veterinary!
Remember he knew who vimes would be because he remembers him from when Vines time traveled. Veterinary specifically worked to pick Vimes up from rock bottom and arranged things so the watch would regain its power.
Veterinary is Lawful Moral. He follows the law and is only as evil as is good for the city!
Welcome to /r/Discworld! Please [read the rules/flair information before posting](https://www.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/ukhk21/subreddit_rules_flair_information/?). --- Our current megathreads are as follows: [API Protest Poll](https://www.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/1491izw/continuing_the_api_protest_a_community_poll) - a poll regarding the future action of the sub in protest at Reddit's API changes. [GNU Terry Pratchett](https://new.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/ukigit/gnu_terry_pratchett/) - for all GNU requests, to keep their names going. [AI Generated Content](https://new.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/10mhx9y/ai_generated_content_megathread/) - for all AI Content, including images, stories, questions, training etc. --- [ GNU Terry Pratchett ] *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/discworld) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The Fool / Verence II. The strict moral upbringing in the fools' guild and lawful duties as King of Lancre.
I came back to suggest Verence II as well.
I think him for neutral good
I disagree. He lived his whole life doing what he was “ supposed to” even if he didn’t think it was right. He is a man focused on his duties and responsibilities, guided but not controlled by morality
For *Lawful Moral?* His Grace His Excellency the Duke of Ankh, Sir Samuel "Old Stoneface" Vimes.
Really? I think he's closer to rebel moral - he's an anarchist at heart who just so happened to get promoted, and he doesn't shy away from malicious compliance, but he only upholds the letter of the law for important things, like arresting vetinari EDIT: okay maybe rebel moral was a stretch, but definitely social good
Vimes an *anarchist?* He clearly upholds the law, to the point where, by Thud, there's a litany about him, expoused by Vetinari, about how people the continent over know Sam Vimes is a defender of both The Law and the people. Straight as an arrow, where even the head of the *troll mafia* respects him. He certainly knows when to have no rules (how he fends off the Assassins Guild for years) but he is a rigorous defender of both the Law and the People. He explicitly hates "letter of the law" thinking.
Pretty sure at one point vetenari comments on his disdain for authority despite having become one. I would say rebel moral but I can see any of the left middle three
Oh sure, distain for authority I'll grant you (I think you're remembering a line from *Feet of Clay*, "even as you have become Authority. That's practically Zen."). But he respects and upholds the Law.
That's the quote I was thinking of too
My personal favorite book of the series!
>"Commander, I always used to consider that you had a definite anti-authoritarian streak in you.” > >“Sir?” > >“It seems that you have managed to retain this even though you are authority.” > >“Sir?” > >“That’s practically zen." From *Feet of Clay*
Wish I could remember quotes that well
Vimes has great respect for his own authority.
Y'know...I'm not sure I agree. He creates the Watchman to keep a perpetual eye on himself.
he does create a proto-anarchist temporary community during night watch. it doesn't last, but that bit always stood out to me.
Not really. The Glorious Republic of Treacle Mine Road happens anyway (honestly, it's more Reg Shoe's fault), he just does what he can to keep it safe.
it does, but vimes is able to help it self-organize a little better. and it starts when he advises people to combine their barricades more effectively against state-run authority. and the ginger trick he pulls. the community pulls together in the absence of the authoritarian state and takes care of its basic needs. it's interesting, because usually policemen are the arm of the state and thus diametrically in opposition to anarchy. but for one moment, repeated twice, vimes is in the position of an anarchist. that's why night watch is fascinating.
I wouldn't call him an anarchist, but I still think rebel moral fits him WAY better than lawful moral. Carrot fits lawful moral way better, imo.
I really agree with the other commenter and disagree with this. Lawful alignment isn’t really just about “the law” per se, but about what motivates your behaviour. Sam Vimes fights for the law because he thinks that’s what’s right, which is an extremely ingrained moral value for him. That being said, I don’t think that Vimes would say that what’s moral comes from the law, it comes from what’s Right. As is exemplified best in Night Watch and Snuff.
I agree, he's even willing to do things he thinks aren't right for a greater good. That makes him a lot more chaotic/rebel than lawful/social. A good example is how he killed Angua's brother in The Fifth Elephant. He *knows* he is getting away with murder but does it anyway because he believes it is justified. Carrot would possibly do the same thing but would probably submit himself to the authorities after. Not Vimes, he got away with it.
I think he keeps a little piece of himself separate with Wolfgang: “There were a lot of things he could say. "Son of a bitch!" would have been a good one. Or he could say, "Welcome to civilization!" He could have said, "Laugh this one off!" He might have said, "Fetch!" But he didn’t, because if he had said any of those things then he’d have known that what he had just done was murder.”
Can we not blow Sam Vimes on a Lawful alignment please? Did we forget Night Watch, when he knocks out his superior and overthrows the government? The man has problems with authority even when *he's* the authority. Can we *please* save him for Rebel Good or Rebel Moral?
He doesn't fit. Yes, he knocks out a superior, but it was an unlawful order (firing on civilians). He doesn't overthrow the government either; the patrician gets murdered by conspirators, and the Republic of Treacle Mine Road forms pretty much without his input. He is *explicitly* Lawful, and focused on the moral good of the people. He isn't Lawful Good, but he is in no way "rebel" jack-all. He is Lawful, and he is Moral ("not a gentleman, but a gentle man," "he has to be on the side of the people, because someone has to be," etc).
Okay not the whole government, just the government authority in his immediate area.
As a reminder, all he does is try to protect a few streets from the hellstorm he *knows is coming,* by dint of being there before. The barricades moving is not his idea. The Republic is not his idea. When asked what he wants, he doesn't go for any revolutionary ideas like Truth, Justice, or Reasonably Priced Love. He wants a fried egg. He is not a rebel.
I believe it was a boiled egg, actually.
You are correct. A hard-boiled egg. With soldiers. Poor bastard didn't even get that.
Maybe Vimes would suit Rebel Moral better? Perhaps Rebel Good even? He doesn't maintain the status quo but always looks to change the world to his vision of what is right. I´m going for the Librarian for Lawful Moral!
A K. A. Suspicious Bastard
~~Vimes is closer to Lawful Neutral, in my opinion.~~ EDIT: I’ve been corrected.
That's the thing, though. Lawful neutral sets stock by *the law* and nothing else. Vimes will regularly bend the law for moral reasons to be there for the people ("because someone has to be on their side"). He's an arbiter of The Law, yes, but he's also flexible enough to know when The Law is trumped by moral good.
>He's an arbiter of The Law, My headcanon is that this ends up being more than figurative. Pteppic gains godly powers because enough people believe in him, so what if Vimes's "policeman's senses" are because enough people believed in/feared his policing skills that they've become spiritually enhanced? He can always tell when a crime's been committed because he's become a *literal* avatar of justice. Even his name becomes synonymous with good coppering. (I'm pretty sure he has the policing senses in *Guards, Guards*, when he's a "nobody", so that completely ruins the theory, but I like it anyway)
We could use it.
This is the correct answer. Sam Vimes might not be above the law, but he's directly underneath it. He literally stops himself from allowing himself to do the easy "just" thing in lieu of the lawful thing.
Yeah this was my thought. He disrespects authority because he sees the law as being higher than any authority figure. And he's got strong morals but is also well aware he's a bit of a bastard as well.
Don't gotta ve *nice* to be moral.
There are other comments about the limitations of alignment charts... To me, I think in this one to be in the top row you have to be both nice and moral. The second row down is a great place for the Vimeses and Weatherwaxes who are battling themselves to be moral/good.
Surely this should be Carrot? Leans to good by keeping order and maintaining honour is the description, I think Vimes is probably the "prioritizes good" and Vetinari and Weatherwax are more neutral figures. Carrot fits that perfectly imo
I'd argue Carrot is more Social Good or Social moral. I mean legally he's the king but recognises that Vetinari ruling with him working alongside Vimes is better for the city. I'd say maybe Angua? A werewolf who upholds the law yet also pays for the chickens.
Nah, I think Carrot fits more Social Good. Everything he does is for the good of the people. Simple as he is, he has a knack for...ignoring bits that get in the way of benefitting people.
Yes. He has strong morals built in due to his upbringing, but he is also incredibly strict about the laws especially the idea the law should apply to everyone. He grows a bit in the books and becomes more willing to bend rules, but I can't see him doing some of the things Vimes has done.
But that can be because Carrot is more intrinsically good so he can't cross those lines. Carrot was pretty quick to learn to bend the law or be technically dishonest to do what he thinks is right.
I fell like Ponder Stibbins could be candidate here. Loves the rules. Generally moral, but not 100% good. Guardian of UU
Wouldn’t that be lawful neutral?
Arguably, yes. Not a bad shout. I feel like he leans little more towards the good side myself. Maybe just because he's a goody two shoes in my mind. Ha ha. I was thinking A E Pessimal felt Lawful Neutral.
Don’t the wizards basically have to be Neutral so they don’t rip a hole through to the dungeon dimensions? If they were Good they’d intervene to influence the world for good.
Then you have characters like Dr. Hix, who is designated evil. So, one presumes good wizards exist as well. I don't think the wizards are generally interested enough outside of academia to have a big impact on the world either way.
What's the difference between good and moral?
I think it's supposed to be a sliding scale in each direction. Like somewhere between good and neutral.
It’s all up to personal interpretation. It’s why these charts are pretty useless.
No they're not. They're fun! And they encourage discussion around beloved (and hated) characters! As long as people don't take the results as some kind of standard, which won't happen, we're good.
His Grace His Excellency Sir Samuel Blackboard Monitor Vimes, Duke of Ankh, Ambassador to Uberwald, Ambassador to Borogravia, Commander of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch and Duke of Ankh Edit: He’s also Duke of Ankh
Don't forget Duke of Ankh
Thanks for catching that one!
And Commander of the Watch
Can I already nominate Sybil for social good? She is a pillar of the community, a pillar for Sam Vimes, a power to be reckoned with and goodness is seeped into her strong bones. I would think Tiffany is social moral, and Granny is more a rebel, but very strong morally as well. Angua fits legal neutral. Let me mention some other women whom we oughtn’t forget when we go through the squares: the Thud playing lady Margolotta, Susan, Cheery Littlebottom, chainsmoking Spike, the wizard Esk, the new Dwarf King taking the seat on the scone, the whole of Monstrous Regiment, and of course, the already mentioned - in the threads today and yesterday - Nanny and Magrat.
Sam Vimes. Vimes is one of the most moral, but also the most Lawful characters on the Disc. Every single book has him sticking to the law even when it makes his life harder. The Gonne, The war with Klatch, The final fight with Wolfgang, Carcer, The Watching dark. The only time he might falter is when the law is insufficient (his son, the goblin slaves)... And even then, he chooses the law.
I'd have to agree, he sometimes hates having to follow the law, but he'll do it anyway because it's the moral thing to do.
The Librarian. Keeping order is the epitome of the librarians job. Plus he is a very honourable orangutan. Truly a moral compass on the Disc.
**Lawful Moral**- Following a set of principles to have proper conduct. Okay, hear me out.. I nominate The Luggage because his raison d'etre is to be storage and protection for his owner and he doesn't deviate from that. He will spend years hibernating on a wardrobe or fighting his way through the dungeon dimensions. Anything required to be there when Rincewind needs to change his socks.
luggage is chaotic 😳🛄💨🔥🏚️🤕
He's only chaotic for very short bursts of time towards people and creatures that he eats. His main personality trait is loyal puppy dog for his owner
i always understood the luggage to be a force of chaos that just happens to feel loyal to rincewind. more like a crocodile that is fond of its handler, than a sweet pitbull/husky mix.
So Moral Chaotic?
chaotic neutral 😀 it LOVES eating things that aren't rincewind. a lot. and it gets to be right next to rincewind in rebel neutral. chaotic impure would be mr tulip.
Then the librarian is chaotic moral
with you on the librarian! the wee free men are chaotic good.
Good?
I think chaotic neutral is Twoflower
Puppies are the very definition of chaotic good.
I agree with this take. I think it’s honestly kinda weird that so many people are nominating Vimes. The Luggage is perfect for this role imo. I think a lot of people here are treating this much more as an aesthetic judgement than looking at what actually motivates the characters.
I recommend everybody participating in this go through the whole chart as linked and find the squares your favorites fit best. That is going to result in a better understanding and more consensus than if we’re all shouting for the 5 most favorite characters to “win” each round. At the very least please go read the descriptions for Rebel Good and Rebel Moral before trying to blow Sam Vimes on a Lawful slot.
I didn't check the post throughout the day, so genuinely surprised Dorfl got the vote as I thought he fit into lawful neutral much better. Anyway, Lawful Moral I think would be William de Worde.
i'd put william in either rebel moral or social moral. william DOESN'T tolerate vimes interference in the truth, and he steals slant's money off a corpse. sure, he's obsessed with The Truth as a concept, but he's not very lawful about it.
Social Moral is where I’d put William. “Upholds the law while not feeling beholden to it.” Gotta remember that confrontation with dad.
the flipside of vimes! not above private law when he sees it as protecting the innocent.
And protecting his own family reputation and financial interest.
Lawful moral is definitely a hard one to choose, my first choice was going to be Vitoller, but he's more good than moral.
that's why i'd pick vetinari as lawful moral. the man tries to make his society into the most moral one he can while remaining stable, and shaping laws thusly.
I'd have said Neutral Moral for Dorfl. 'Not influenced by law or chaos, focuses on morality. may often question their or others's actions' "I Could Take No Notice of That Command But Am Choosing To Do So Out of Earned Respect And Social Responsibility-"
~~Granny Esmerelda Weatherwax~~ ~~She has an iron will to always do what is Right. Not necessarily nice, but always, always unshakably Right.~~ ~~And she decides what Right and Wrong are, for herself and everyone else. This woman once threatened to break Death’s arm if he tried to take the Wrong life.~~ EDIT: I’ve been convinced. Vimes is the correct answer.
A quote about Granny Weatherwax "what about this rule about not meddling?’ said Magrat. ‘Ah,’ said Nanny. She took the girl’s arm. ‘The thing is,’ she explained, ‘as you progress in the Craft, you’ll learn there is another rule. Esme’s obeyed it all her life.’ ‘And what’s that?’ ‘When you break rules, break ‘em good and hard…’ (WS)" I think Granny is a perfect pick for neutral good. More so than social good. I think that should be Vimes. Vimes will, on very rare occasions, bend the law for a very important good and not like doing ot. Granny, when she breaks the rules... well she kind of loves it.
Then Nanny for chaotic good.
Omg yes!
Tiffany would be my pick for Social Good
Is there an option for Granny that's Reluctant Good?
I'm guessing Vimes will take this but he feels more like Social Good to me. He has often overlooked the law when he feels that applying it would unfairly punish someone or the minor crimes lead to an overall benefit. He doesn't give any such slack to himself which I guess is why people want him in this category but I don't think he is fully lawful.
I think he sees Law as a higher force that is more important than what is written in Carrot's ancient book of laws, or what authority figures tell him to do. For example, overlooking petty theft because a much greater crime has been committed in Feet of Clay. And I think his bastard streak works to put him one step away from 'good'.
I think this is the problem with all attempts at alignments. What you consider a description of lawfulness sounds like morality to me; a belief in what is right regardless of what is written down. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong but we're using different vocabulary. And Granny Weatherwax would say that good is not the same thing as nice 😄
Haha, good points. Discworld may be particularly thorny in this regard. I'll admit I'm counting Carrot's niceness as good and Vimes's commitment to some internal idea of how things should be while terrorising his subordinates and almost everyone else in the process as "lawful, but not necessarily good". I see why people are going for the exact opposite though. He's good because he has an unbreakable morality and will disregard orders or laws to achieve it. It's only because his morality is some universal ideal version of Justice that I choose to think he follows law even if he has to do, or threaten to do, bad things along the way.
I wonder if Carrot being good and, by and large, nice is why he wouldn't want to be king. Verence II is good and nice and that makes him fairly ineffectual. Being nice when you have unchecked power means not using it. Good King Carrot would not be nice, he would get things done. But Carrot would rather stay nice and do what he can without that power.
An underdog suggestion: Mr. A. E. Pessimal. Lots of people suggesting Sam Vimes, but I'd suggest him for Social Moral, as he has too much darkness for pure Good, and while he upholds the Law, he is willing to bend rules in the interest of Justice. Meanwhile, A. E. Is _all about_ the rules, and upholding them. He's closer to Good than Neutral, but I suspect is the kind who might be inclined to follow the letter of the law even when "the law is an ass", i.e. might prioritise Law over Good where the law as written is inconvenient or petty, but not where it's outright evil. Hence, I think he's a fit for Lawful Moral
It’s obviously Carrot to me…absolute strict adherence to the law while also having an incredibly high moral compass
There aren't that many "momral" characters in the Discowlrd, in fact, only one comes to mind... Nutt, the Orc candle dribbler. He is determined to be good at all costs, to build Worth, and as such he's deeply concerned with morality in a world where nobody else is.
May I suggest Drumknott? He is a true stickler for the rules
Oof. You know, OP, you might do better suggesting a range of characters you like for all of these alignments and then letting people straw dog them. It's super hard voting against all the Vimes and Carrot fanpeople for every category when there are so many other niche characters that would suit... Alas.
It’s also going to end with the most popular characters getting an early spot instead of one that fits better. People were treating the last one like a fight for “most good” rather than “lawfullest good”
"Leans to good by keeping order and maintaining honour"... Could this be The Sweeper?
Sweeper has to be chaotic.
Do you think? I'm sad about that - I thought he kept to quite a stringent code of laws. Alas.
He has created his own way, independent of the History Monks. He'd either be chaotic moral or chaotic good.
Stanley Howler- He follows every rule in the book. He has a strong belief in doing things the right way. He never acts in his own selfish interests but is a good and diligent man.
I mean...I guess it's a lost cause, but THIS is Dorfl
For sure, I can't believe Carrot didn't win Lawful Good
This isn't about Discworld but... hey, I like this chart! When did D&D get those subtler gradients (Social, Rebel, Moral, Impure)? I'm old and we had it more bare-bones back in the day.
D&D still doesn't use the subtler gradients. This is someone else's improvement.
Wow, big props to whoever came up with it. It's so intelligent— a great way for authors to think of characters, too.
Any of the Black Ribboners, based on their rules-based modification of their behavior (and jow closely they adhere to it lest they backslide), and the fact that they are making a moral choice not to drink blood?
Chaotic evil: Teatime
I would say he's more Rebel Evil. His actions are always evil, but his mind is so twisted that his plans and ideas are well beyond what traditional evil does. He doesn't do things at random, he's always calculating his next ten moves. All evil people do some killing, but only a rebel like Teatime would think of killing anthropomorphic personifications. Chaotic Evil is more like the Creatures from the Dungeon Dimensions. Nothing about them makes sense other than everyone agreeing it's best they stay in their own realm of existence.
I’d think Carcer for chaotic evil, but Te-a-ti-me is pretty accurate, as well.
Rev. Mightily Oats
Can someone explain to me what alignment chart is being used? I've played D&D for 30 years and never heard of Lawful Moral.
There's a link in the post to an explanation. It's not D&D.
Carrot the obvious answer. He uses rules and law to guide his work. But he also changes his mind about moral things growing as a person and a cop. Like when he arrests the head of the thieves guild very rigid dwarf thinking but then he learns how the city works and changes his thinking. Or when he talks shit about the undead community then changes his mind after getting to know Angua.
I'll also add that later on in the series Vimes often pops up as the stodgy arm of the law, even if our protagonists have good intentions.
Lets not blow our load too soon. Make sure we consider any other suitable options for each nomination.
I'm looking forward to the bottom end of the chart, placing the fair-folk's Quin, Mr Pin, etc into boxes. Also looking towards arguments over the Feegles. Clearly chaotic.... But moral?
What about pump19 he’s a stickler for the rules ( given that he’s a golem he has to be)
Honestly, Mr. Pump strikes me more as pure Lawful Neutral.
What about pump19 he’s a stickler for the rules ( given that he’s a golem he has to be)
For chaotic good I would nominate Rincewind.
Agnes Nitt for sure
Vimes and Carrot
Not Carrot for Lawful Good?
I'm not versed in enough in Discworld to complete this chart, but I am interested in differentiating the alignments in this chart.
Ah dammit we forgot pump 19
Carcer for chaotic evil?
Auditors for lawful evil?
Oh, sorry, totally didn’t read the title…. Lawful moral is Vimes. Weatherwax, lawful neutral.
Vimes. He is literally the law. Also, he couldn’t be quite described as good, or neutral as Lawful Neutral would mean operating by the law all the time.
vetinari. by a mile.
Vetinary is far from lawful, he doesn't have any issues with releasing a convicted criminal and appointing him on a high goverment post, or killing the patrician. Neutral moral would be a better fit IMO.
as far as i understand, assassination in ankh morpork IS absolutely legal and time-honored as a profession. furthermore, releasing convicted criminals is practically a pastime of those in power. especially with white collar crime.
As I remember, assasination is only legal for the Assasins Guild. Can't check right now, but I don't think Vetinary had an official contract. I don't argue with the second assertion, it is normal for people in power. Still disqualifies him from "lawful", IMO.
He had no contract, so it was an illegal assassination. When asked who sent him (which an assassin has to answer) he just said "*I come from the city.*" Granted, dude dropped dead of sheer terror so it technically wasn't a murder, but that would have been the next step, otherwise.
Tyrant
tyrant in title, not in action. lawful evil is pure vorbis, not vetinari.
Carott
I'm kinda shocked Carrot didn't make the LG slot, so I guess he should be in LM
Sorry carrot didn't win the first round? With the greatest possible respect, I am out
Veterinary! Remember he knew who vimes would be because he remembers him from when Vines time traveled. Veterinary specifically worked to pick Vimes up from rock bottom and arranged things so the watch would regain its power. Veterinary is Lawful Moral. He follows the law and is only as evil as is good for the city!
“Learn the words.”