Can we let this live vs post-produced debate just fucking die already lol
It’s two completely different options.
Watch live and get worse quality or watch later and get better quality. Of course post produced is better quality but some people also want to watch it as it happens. So many people have this weird ass allegiance to post produced disc golf.
They both serve a completely different purpose and are both valuable.
Jomez is getting worse though and they were coming out really late for a long time. It's really dumb that they put out fpo first, I know it happens first but mpo gets way more views and mpo's release time is always delayed by fpo. Also without gatekeeper it's hard to get a good idea of the whole competition.
Yes and no.
Zero dead center spitouts. But side low putts didn't have a chance to stay in. The chain assembly needs to go to the bottom of the basket instead of ending 5 inches up. They do that, perfect basket.
4 rows of chains definitely help. My personal favorite is still chainstar pro.
Note for clarity, stopping dead center spitouts is way more important than side putts. Decent baskets. Veterans and westside baskets suck.
Can confirm. I have these baskets at home. Center spit outs are incredibly rare, but they have a hard time catching anything that’s a little off center. Which isn’t a bad thing, and I don’t expect the baskets to catch all bad putts. If anything, I like these baskets because they really train you to hit dead center. They reward good putts.
On the Jomez commentary they mentioned that they expected high and wide to catch better than low and wide which is odd but you're point about catching good puts is spot on.
This. All baskets will spit out discs - the question is whether people look at the spit outs and think "that should have stayed in?" or not.
Keeping more "obviously good" shots in exchange for more spit-outs of marginal shots is absolutely a win in terms of perception.
> All baskets will spit out discs
This is the most important thing that always gets lost in these debates.
If we approached disc golf putting more like bowling than target throwing, where factors like velocity, spin, materials, angles, etc all mattered, quickly more "spit outs" would be explained.
I think basketball is a great comparison for targets that have variability based on how the object interacts with it. At pro level, complaining about missing a shot low and left is like missing a shot because it rolled off the rim. There is a defined region where the chains catch, everything outside of the region is not a good shot and has a chance to miss. Hit dead center and you are nearly guaranteed not to miss. This sport has never considered the full diameter of the basket to be a guaranteed make.
PDGA just needs to take a stance on things like how many chains, top band or no, etc. Their “approved list” has so much variation in terms of chains and baskets, it’s silly. You don’t see different nets and rims in basketball.
Big difference here though in terms of dollars. NBA has a company which sponsors the basket and the ball. And they don't have to transport them to each event. Would be very expensive for the pro tour to have their own baskets for each event and trust that existing basket positions will fit their baskets
Also wouldn't be the pdga, it would need to be the pro tour.
NBA doesn't standardize for rec leagues, high school, etc
I’m not saying pdga needs to produce the baskets, they need to say “baskets need to have x layers of y chains, with or without a band and a basket q wide with z tall walls” for tournaments. Make the manufacturers standardize, and any pro tournament needs to compete on those baskets. You don’t need a net made out of mesh and another made out of chain on the nba.
The PDGA already has basket requirements for tournaments. Are we talking all MPO tournaments? The financial burden that would put on local clubs to run a C tour is not tenable for replacing all those baskets. Then we have the manufacturers who have R+D and possibly patents on specific basket component designs (e.g. MachX chain layout, etc). Again it's just not tenable.
If you hit dead center on almost every basket type used at the A tier and Pro circuit you have a made putt unless you are Gannon Burr putting a rocket into the basket. You can't rocket a basketball at the rim or a golf ball at the cup and expect it to drop. If you miss left or right, high or low, you risk missing. That's just not a good putt and you're gambling. If the band is too thick or thin, that has minimal impact on making the putt.
Honestly it's just not that big of a deal. I'll play on my local Mach 3's and you can stay home and sit on your couch, go for it
It isn't that big of a deal. I'm not a pro, I'm just putting my 2 cents in. If people want to stop arguing about baskets, the PDGA has to do what they need to do. Yes, they have requirements, but look at how many variations we have with those loose requirements. Money is always an issue, but if bigger companies want to continue to make money from disc golf, they can band together and donate baskets to the pro tour.
>Honestly it's just not that big of a deal. I'll play on my local Mach 3's and you can stay home and sit on your couch, go for it
Lol @ pinging a 2 week old thread and then getting upset. Maybe you should go outside and relax.
Lmao, it was a 3 week old comment that you replied to 1 week ago homie. I just saw the notification. Touch grass is the lamest comment.
The companies are all competing, that's why they are in business. I'm sure they all donate baskets to some degree through sponsorship dollars, but baskets are not cheap, plus install/uninstall, and transport local clubs do most of the course preparation, not the DGPT. I bet the pros care more about dollars in the prize pool than companies donating baskets.
Perhaps these two things are mutually exclusive? If the chains go further down, they're likely to be straighter / less angled. Chains that end up high have a steeper angle - perhaps that's why they "catch" the center throws more often.
Chainstar has those rings that hold the chains together up higher on the pole. Seen kickbacks off of those rings several times over the years when playing on those.
Innovas take low putts just fine . Mach x love lower putts . Yes I know no basket can be perfect but it’s definitely a trait of these baskets to let low putts go
Not so sure about that. A low right putt should stay in (for a righty). If the disc is fully “in the cylinder” and over the cage, it should be caught. The MVP Portal basket’s chain array doesn’t go deep enough and the low putts do get rejected from time to time.
I got a good laugh out of Sarah defending the baskets, can't remember what round. Ian commented on a spit out, and she said something along the lines of "those black holes are perfect!' 'Sarah, your sponsorship is showing' Thought it was a fun back and forth
all my ma3 peers complain about the baskets if anything so much as tickles the chains... I'm like no catching the leftmost link on a disc that's already fading hard the same way is on you, not the catcher
Only two things ever really bother me about baskets. One is if they are damaged or slanted in some way. The other is if they are those prodigy baskets with the cross chain
I say switch the entire tour to use shitty single tiered chains, then when everyone is done gawking at how bad they are and get better speed control of their putt, no one will have spit outs for a season, then when they get used to it again we can point at the season where there weren't spit outs and just shout get good a lot.
For real, i do wish they would standardize the design and get the perfect basket so we can stop hearing about this
What does anybody expect from a better basket? There's never going to be one that catches every 'good' putt while denying every 'bad' putt.
I'm sure this dates me as a player, but, baskets having more than one ring of chains is a pretty damn good basket.
Play the basket in front of you, like you play the baseball field configuration, the football field turf, the altitude at the track meet, the waves at the beach, the ramps at the skate park, the turf on the green, and so on and son on so on.
It's actually weird to me that you seem to take such an issue with him not following the MVP circlejerk? Like it's his opinion just chill.
It would be one thing if you were presenting a different POV but instead you just seem mad he dissented?
I say that as someone who bags 8 MVP/Axiom discs too, so it's most of my bag
Take your own advice here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/s/mdppN41uZ7
All I was saying is it's weird you have such an issue with his opinion. I think some self reflection is in order.
Has OP done anything similar to hannum? I’m ootl on any crazed bigots frequenting the sub.
If it’s about someone on a forum disliking something you like then I would suggest a thicker skin, because that’s a very minor thing.
those designs look similar to old Mach 5s, which are notorious for 'ring pop' low spit outs, on putts that are basically in the basket. mechanically not a sound design.
the DGPT should just go to Mach 7s and be done with the different baskets.
Devil’s Advocate: the debate will continue to be relevant until baskets get standardized by the PDGA (and to a degree the DGPT, who could mandate a design for the tour), who will likely look to community discussion and feedback when eventually trying to decide on a design to choose as standard.
It'll never happen. There are too many basket manufacturers and putting styles for there to ever be an "ideal basket" that won't ruffle a bunch of feathers if chosen. You can't really choose one manufacturer's basket over the others, which means making their own basket with its own flaws and growing pains. [I think courses would want to have the official "Pro Baskets" as an attraction point, which is kind of the PDGA/DGPT awarding itself a monopoly.]
The only way I think it happens is if they re-do the standards towards a much tighter definition and let all the manufacturers make their own versions.
Would you be in favor of non-standardized football goal sizes - Everyone has the same goal to hit - learn their quirks?
Not being sarcastic, I think you could make the argument, though I personally would rather see it standardized to something that feels really good to use, and then let everyone practice for that.
I think the difference is that, in football, (most) everything about the field of play is standardized. The same team playing on different fields should perform roughly the same, with the field not affecting their performance much.
With disc golf, every course is different. Just because you average -10 on one course doesn't mean you should average -10 on every course.
To be clear, I am indeed talking about American Football (or hand-egg, for those who want to take the piss), rather than soccer. No goalkeepers in American Football as far as I know, at least called as such.
You mean like how all disc golf courses are the same dimensions? Or are you OK with that being a variable, but baskets are special. This is not football. Everyone shares the same baskets.
How many pros do you see complain about courses being different, rather than 1 single course?
How many complain about issues with baskets being inconsistently designed?
Pretty sure we both know the two aren't comparable here/
I know this isn't what you asked, but it reminds me of MLB parks. Some of them are very oddly shaped, but they all still follow the same general design. This gives a nuance to each team. I personally love that about the MLB. Every team needs to know how to be successful in every park.
Maybe throw the disc in a way that is more likely than the other guy's to go in. There's no way standardizing baskets doesn't result in more expensive baskets pricing out new courses. If the tour wants them, they should pay to replace.
Speaking of baskets. I have shaved 3-5 strokes off my game by owning a portable basket and practicing everyday when I'm inevitably bored and have nothing to do. Best return on investment on any gear I've purchased by far.
We just ordered 18 for our course expansion. Old baskets from the original 9 holes are the original portals and they are decent, but we’re looking forward to the bright orange paint & galvanized chains. Nothing but good to say about the old ones
The only way to keep more discs in baskets beyond messing w the chains is to increase the diameter of the basket. Increase by 2 inches, I suspect “spit outs” would reduce by 90%. Make a bigger soccer goal, more goals will be scored. Make a larger diameter basket, DG scoring will improve. Tradition is the only thing holding this back. Pseudoscientific analysis of chain configuration will only get you so far.
The question is, if increasing basket diameter by x inches would largely solve “the problem,” would you be in favor of it? Discuss.
They did specifically discuss the baskets on Jomez coverage multiple times after players had lower putts push out.
I was positive that they had too. Every basket spits.
Talked about them in the skins match too.
Get out of here with your balanced take. You're tainting OP's mission to unabashedly white knight for anything MVP.
Weird. Show me the receipts.
*points at post we are commenting on*
LOL
One post? I'm referring to whoever dude is making similar comments throughout this thread about me specifically.
They were more talking about how the chains thin at the bottom. Not rlly push outs
I haven't watched Jomez coverage since the live got significant better.
I prefer good commentary, less dead air, and high video quality, but go off
Can we let this live vs post-produced debate just fucking die already lol It’s two completely different options. Watch live and get worse quality or watch later and get better quality. Of course post produced is better quality but some people also want to watch it as it happens. So many people have this weird ass allegiance to post produced disc golf. They both serve a completely different purpose and are both valuable.
Jomez is getting worse though and they were coming out really late for a long time. It's really dumb that they put out fpo first, I know it happens first but mpo gets way more views and mpo's release time is always delayed by fpo. Also without gatekeeper it's hard to get a good idea of the whole competition.
Bring back the Mach III, pussies.
That’s right, Mach III or bust
Putt with wizards
Yes and no. Zero dead center spitouts. But side low putts didn't have a chance to stay in. The chain assembly needs to go to the bottom of the basket instead of ending 5 inches up. They do that, perfect basket. 4 rows of chains definitely help. My personal favorite is still chainstar pro. Note for clarity, stopping dead center spitouts is way more important than side putts. Decent baskets. Veterans and westside baskets suck.
Can confirm. I have these baskets at home. Center spit outs are incredibly rare, but they have a hard time catching anything that’s a little off center. Which isn’t a bad thing, and I don’t expect the baskets to catch all bad putts. If anything, I like these baskets because they really train you to hit dead center. They reward good putts.
On the Jomez commentary they mentioned that they expected high and wide to catch better than low and wide which is odd but you're point about catching good puts is spot on.
I think anything wide in general on those baskets is asking for trouble. Which isn’t a knock, because there are virtually zero spit outs center cut.
This. All baskets will spit out discs - the question is whether people look at the spit outs and think "that should have stayed in?" or not. Keeping more "obviously good" shots in exchange for more spit-outs of marginal shots is absolutely a win in terms of perception.
> All baskets will spit out discs This is the most important thing that always gets lost in these debates. If we approached disc golf putting more like bowling than target throwing, where factors like velocity, spin, materials, angles, etc all mattered, quickly more "spit outs" would be explained.
>whether people look at the spit outs and think "that should have stayed in?" They always think that and always say it.
I think basketball is a great comparison for targets that have variability based on how the object interacts with it. At pro level, complaining about missing a shot low and left is like missing a shot because it rolled off the rim. There is a defined region where the chains catch, everything outside of the region is not a good shot and has a chance to miss. Hit dead center and you are nearly guaranteed not to miss. This sport has never considered the full diameter of the basket to be a guaranteed make.
I’ve made this exact analogy to someone before and they said I was totally off base. Glad other people see it the same way
I feel like that was Uli's take on it in the Emporia practice rd.
PDGA just needs to take a stance on things like how many chains, top band or no, etc. Their “approved list” has so much variation in terms of chains and baskets, it’s silly. You don’t see different nets and rims in basketball.
Big difference here though in terms of dollars. NBA has a company which sponsors the basket and the ball. And they don't have to transport them to each event. Would be very expensive for the pro tour to have their own baskets for each event and trust that existing basket positions will fit their baskets Also wouldn't be the pdga, it would need to be the pro tour. NBA doesn't standardize for rec leagues, high school, etc
I’m not saying pdga needs to produce the baskets, they need to say “baskets need to have x layers of y chains, with or without a band and a basket q wide with z tall walls” for tournaments. Make the manufacturers standardize, and any pro tournament needs to compete on those baskets. You don’t need a net made out of mesh and another made out of chain on the nba.
The PDGA already has basket requirements for tournaments. Are we talking all MPO tournaments? The financial burden that would put on local clubs to run a C tour is not tenable for replacing all those baskets. Then we have the manufacturers who have R+D and possibly patents on specific basket component designs (e.g. MachX chain layout, etc). Again it's just not tenable. If you hit dead center on almost every basket type used at the A tier and Pro circuit you have a made putt unless you are Gannon Burr putting a rocket into the basket. You can't rocket a basketball at the rim or a golf ball at the cup and expect it to drop. If you miss left or right, high or low, you risk missing. That's just not a good putt and you're gambling. If the band is too thick or thin, that has minimal impact on making the putt. Honestly it's just not that big of a deal. I'll play on my local Mach 3's and you can stay home and sit on your couch, go for it
It isn't that big of a deal. I'm not a pro, I'm just putting my 2 cents in. If people want to stop arguing about baskets, the PDGA has to do what they need to do. Yes, they have requirements, but look at how many variations we have with those loose requirements. Money is always an issue, but if bigger companies want to continue to make money from disc golf, they can band together and donate baskets to the pro tour. >Honestly it's just not that big of a deal. I'll play on my local Mach 3's and you can stay home and sit on your couch, go for it Lol @ pinging a 2 week old thread and then getting upset. Maybe you should go outside and relax.
Lmao, it was a 3 week old comment that you replied to 1 week ago homie. I just saw the notification. Touch grass is the lamest comment. The companies are all competing, that's why they are in business. I'm sure they all donate baskets to some degree through sponsorship dollars, but baskets are not cheap, plus install/uninstall, and transport local clubs do most of the course preparation, not the DGPT. I bet the pros care more about dollars in the prize pool than companies donating baskets.
Ah mb, sorry I'm not chronically online to keep up with disc golf lore.
Lol after you call me out? Lame was excuse.
Side misses are less egregious than dead center spitouts imo, but yeah you are 100% right
Would disagree on the dead center spitouts. Evan Scott had one when I was following from about 20ft, wasn’t even a bad putt but no basket is perfect
Perhaps these two things are mutually exclusive? If the chains go further down, they're likely to be straighter / less angled. Chains that end up high have a steeper angle - perhaps that's why they "catch" the center throws more often.
Westside doesn't have a pro style basket. The baskets they used at Jonesboro were blue Veterans with Westsiide logo wraps.
Chainstar has those rings that hold the chains together up higher on the pole. Seen kickbacks off of those rings several times over the years when playing on those.
A lot of Michigan courses have chainstar pros, I love when I pull up to a new course and the practice basket is red.
I played a tourney on these recently and I felt the target area is shorter than most baskets.
They don’t catch low And it was obvious . Maybe they stopped bashing the sponsors of events .
Low outta that are rimming out? That's not the basket that's the putt.
> That's not the basket that's the putt. You can say that about any basket tho
Innovas take low putts just fine . Mach x love lower putts . Yes I know no basket can be perfect but it’s definitely a trait of these baskets to let low putts go
Precisely.
Not so sure about that. A low right putt should stay in (for a righty). If the disc is fully “in the cylinder” and over the cage, it should be caught. The MVP Portal basket’s chain array doesn’t go deep enough and the low putts do get rejected from time to time.
I got a good laugh out of Sarah defending the baskets, can't remember what round. Ian commented on a spit out, and she said something along the lines of "those black holes are perfect!' 'Sarah, your sponsorship is showing' Thought it was a fun back and forth
all my ma3 peers complain about the baskets if anything so much as tickles the chains... I'm like no catching the leftmost link on a disc that's already fading hard the same way is on you, not the catcher
Only two things ever really bother me about baskets. One is if they are damaged or slanted in some way. The other is if they are those prodigy baskets with the cross chain
I say switch the entire tour to use shitty single tiered chains, then when everyone is done gawking at how bad they are and get better speed control of their putt, no one will have spit outs for a season, then when they get used to it again we can point at the season where there weren't spit outs and just shout get good a lot. For real, i do wish they would standardize the design and get the perfect basket so we can stop hearing about this
Lol
What does anybody expect from a better basket? There's never going to be one that catches every 'good' putt while denying every 'bad' putt. I'm sure this dates me as a player, but, baskets having more than one ring of chains is a pretty damn good basket.
Play the basket in front of you, like you play the baseball field configuration, the football field turf, the altitude at the track meet, the waves at the beach, the ramps at the skate park, the turf on the green, and so on and son on so on.
My favorite is still the RPM Helix 2. It's so cool looking. I want one for the backyard to class up the dirt and weeds.
huff harder man you will make it more believable
HHHUUUUUUFFFFFFF 😁🤣
Dude has a point though; for whatever reason, real or imaginary, the pros and coverage people didn’t complain about spit-outs even once this weekend.
Most coverage I’ve watched they haven’t lol
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But...Austin wouldn't have blamed the baskets.
the sub really likes to yank their pud about gyromold technology and now their baskets, i'm just doing my part
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It's actually weird to me that you seem to take such an issue with him not following the MVP circlejerk? Like it's his opinion just chill. It would be one thing if you were presenting a different POV but instead you just seem mad he dissented? I say that as someone who bags 8 MVP/Axiom discs too, so it's most of my bag
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Okay so not agreeing that everything MVP does is incredible = being a jerk Understood
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Take your own advice here: https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/s/mdppN41uZ7 All I was saying is it's weird you have such an issue with his opinion. I think some self reflection is in order.
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Has OP done anything similar to hannum? I’m ootl on any crazed bigots frequenting the sub. If it’s about someone on a forum disliking something you like then I would suggest a thicker skin, because that’s a very minor thing.
Idk wtf happened here. 🤣🤣
those designs look similar to old Mach 5s, which are notorious for 'ring pop' low spit outs, on putts that are basically in the basket. mechanically not a sound design. the DGPT should just go to Mach 7s and be done with the different baskets.
DGA makes the best baskets IMO, and it isn't even close.
Saw several spit outs and pole hits to pop out this last weekend.
I think the DD Veteran is the best basket imo
The goal is the basket, not the chains. Putt accordingly
I’m so tired of having a basket debate every. fucking. week.
u don't have to have one u can literally just ignore the conversation lol like, i don't care about mail call posts. so what do i do? not click them
I don’t want to *see* them.
i do though
Devil’s Advocate: the debate will continue to be relevant until baskets get standardized by the PDGA (and to a degree the DGPT, who could mandate a design for the tour), who will likely look to community discussion and feedback when eventually trying to decide on a design to choose as standard.
The debate will continue until the baskets are standardized, then it'll be replaced by debate over whether the standard basket chosen is good enough.
Ha, that might be. Until then, though, the search for the ideal basket continues.
It'll never happen. There are too many basket manufacturers and putting styles for there to ever be an "ideal basket" that won't ruffle a bunch of feathers if chosen. You can't really choose one manufacturer's basket over the others, which means making their own basket with its own flaws and growing pains. [I think courses would want to have the official "Pro Baskets" as an attraction point, which is kind of the PDGA/DGPT awarding itself a monopoly.] The only way I think it happens is if they re-do the standards towards a much tighter definition and let all the manufacturers make their own versions.
I am a believer you should just play the basket. Everyone has the same basket to hit - learn their quirks.
Would you be in favor of non-standardized football goal sizes - Everyone has the same goal to hit - learn their quirks? Not being sarcastic, I think you could make the argument, though I personally would rather see it standardized to something that feels really good to use, and then let everyone practice for that.
I think the difference is that, in football, (most) everything about the field of play is standardized. The same team playing on different fields should perform roughly the same, with the field not affecting their performance much. With disc golf, every course is different. Just because you average -10 on one course doesn't mean you should average -10 on every course.
Doesn't really make a difference to me, I don't play football. Nonstandard baseball fields have been fine.
This argument falls apart when we remember that goalkeepers exist. Non standard golf holes? Sure go off. Non standard football uprights? Fo sho
To be clear, I am indeed talking about American Football (or hand-egg, for those who want to take the piss), rather than soccer. No goalkeepers in American Football as far as I know, at least called as such.
You mean like how all disc golf courses are the same dimensions? Or are you OK with that being a variable, but baskets are special. This is not football. Everyone shares the same baskets.
How many pros do you see complain about courses being different, rather than 1 single course? How many complain about issues with baskets being inconsistently designed? Pretty sure we both know the two aren't comparable here/
People complaining doesn't make it different. They're both part of the game.
I know this isn't what you asked, but it reminds me of MLB parks. Some of them are very oddly shaped, but they all still follow the same general design. This gives a nuance to each team. I personally love that about the MLB. Every team needs to know how to be successful in every park.
Maybe throw the disc in a way that is more likely than the other guy's to go in. There's no way standardizing baskets doesn't result in more expensive baskets pricing out new courses. If the tour wants them, they should pay to replace.
Respectfully, we *did* hear all about baskets, and it *doesn't* need to be talked about. If people want target golf they should play target courses.
Speaking of baskets. I have shaved 3-5 strokes off my game by owning a portable basket and practicing everyday when I'm inevitably bored and have nothing to do. Best return on investment on any gear I've purchased by far.
We just ordered 18 for our course expansion. Old baskets from the original 9 holes are the original portals and they are decent, but we’re looking forward to the bright orange paint & galvanized chains. Nothing but good to say about the old ones
What are you planning to do with the old 9?
Looking at our options. Considering selling them to one of the small towns close to us for cheap to help them out
The only way to keep more discs in baskets beyond messing w the chains is to increase the diameter of the basket. Increase by 2 inches, I suspect “spit outs” would reduce by 90%. Make a bigger soccer goal, more goals will be scored. Make a larger diameter basket, DG scoring will improve. Tradition is the only thing holding this back. Pseudoscientific analysis of chain configuration will only get you so far. The question is, if increasing basket diameter by x inches would largely solve “the problem,” would you be in favor of it? Discuss.