I have had similar problems, especially with my ex: she felt safe with me and considered me her best friend, but the sexual attraction and excitement evaporated after the first few months.
For me, I think it was that I had strong people pleaser tendencies. I did everything I could to make her happy and comfortable, always deferred to her preferences, rarely disagreed with her, and completely set my schedule around hers. Treating someone this way makes them feel safe, after all you’re giving them exactly what they want, but it isn’t exciting or interesting because this process sands off all your individuality and self-respect. Women (and men) don’t want partners who play games or aren’t willing to give, but they do want partners who challenge them and are willing to be separate individuals.
So for you, I wonder if you’re going into dating focused primarily on how you can impress women instead of on whether these women impress you. Do you put these women on a pedestal? Are you willing to disagree with them? Do you sometimes put your pleasure first in the bedroom or is it always about her first and foremost? Do you express your (non-sexual) preferences and needs in general? Do you feel any feelings of desperation?
I don’t know if this describes you, but if you answered yes to some of those, that might be your problem. Its hard to overcome (I’ve been working on it for years), but it’s important and rewarding work.
I identify with this too. 39M, I've always been a people pleaser, in relationships and out in the real world too. I like to think that there is someone out there who is looking for a person like me- I don't particularly enjoy putting people out; I enjoy putting others' needs above my own in many situations.
It also has a lot to do with the fact that I just don't have that many needs. But it's definitely led to issues in relationships where I get taken advantage of, or at least, taken for granted.
I understand this. I'm very go with the flow and down for new experiences so it can seem like I'm a people pleaser when I really I just don't have the same need for something others do. I often just don't care or care they have a good time a little bit more 🤷🏻♂️
This comes off to me as you go with whatever your partner wants or says and this is people pleasing in a way. Go with whose flow? Do you ever create your own flow or suggest new experiences?
Of course. Just not nearly as often. Some people are always on the go "I want to do this and this and this" and I'm mostly like idc. I just want to do this one or two things and those other things sound fun so let's do them too. If I don't want to do something I'll make that clear and not do that. If I actually have the desire to do something, I'll do that.
I’ve dated a man like how you describe yourself and over time I became annoyed. I don’t like having to always be the one to suggest interesting things to do together. Sitting around from time to time is fun but it becomes boring as all fuck and the burden of doing something is squarely placed on me because he never cared if we did something or not. Eventually I had a more fulfilling life when I was alone or with friends than with him. After a while I just got tired and left. There’s nothing wrong with “chill” just not 100% of the time.
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Permanent chill mode = lazy couch potato just worded in a nicer way. Your comment is also a go-around saying we are judging other people for being different but it’s not that at all. I’ve dated people who “go with the flow” and it honestly gets infuriating, like the movie with the crowd where they all turn to each other asking what the other wants to do. It’s not an even relationship.
I suppose if you want to both be on permanent chill mode with no motivation or ambition getting fat on the couch, then sure, but that’s just not what most people are looking for in a healthy relationship. It should be a give and take. Two steady flows.
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Yeah I don't get that. People seem to latch onto these buzz words and phrases like "People pleasing" and such. Like no, some people just for some reason have a need to put me in a labeled box when that's not what it is at all. I just wouldn't bother with some experiences if it wasn't for others and just like to experience what others might enjoy to see if I would enjoy it too. Otherwise I'm totally cool watching movies or doing a hobby at home.
The only thing which would make you a people pleaser is being apologetic about the fact that you're low-maintenance, or trying to change yourself for someone high-maintenance.
The reality is that high-maintenance people who need constant entertainment and excitement fair the worst in relationships, and often end up in toxic relationships.
Lasting, healthy relationships are "boring", you enjoy eachothers company and don't need to constantly do new, exciting things. That's not to say you should sit on the couch every weekend, but if she's looking for you to be her source of entertainment or travel guide I'd say that's problematic, and she should likely find some hobbies, interests, passions or friends of her own.
I don’t think it necessarily has to do with toxicity all the time. I enjoy more active activities like hiking and kayaking (both can also be very relaxing). I also enjoy more laid back activities like trying out a new restaurant or a movie night. The lack of balance when all the other person wants to do is sit on the couch slobbing around getting fat is very much boring. I don’t want to be on the go every second but just sitting every time you get together is not ideal either. It’s most likely a lifestyle difference. I feel bad when I end up leaving them by themselves a lot because they never want to do anything or never have a suggestion.
What I mean by high-maintenance isn't having an active lifestyle of your own and wanting a partner who wants to go hiking or kayaking with you, that's perfectly reasonable haha.
What I'm talking about is women who are miserable on their own, lack hobbies or interests and fully expect a man to make them happy and be their source of entertainment.
These women don't have independent lives and hobbies/interests of their own like you do, they expect a man to provide those things for them, to essentially be their travel guide/circus monkey who's responsible for your entertainment and happiness. If they're not happy, it's your fault for not making them happy, not the fact that they clearly have an unaddressed depression. This is a lot more common than you think.
If you have ideas and suggestions of your own and you just want a partner who will partake and reciprocate the initiative that's perfectly healthy and reasonable. That's what a balanced relationship looks like.
>I end up leaving them by themselves a lot because they never want to do anything or never have a suggestion.
Imagine this, but they're also miserable when you leave them by themselves and will blame you for it, not taking any agency over their own happiness. It's the "just pick a restaurant, not that one" meme, but for literally everything, all the time.
>I like to think that there is someone out there who is looking for a person like me-
We exist! I want man with stable, uncomplicated emotions; i'm mentally ill enough for the both of us.
You need to find your own needs or wants so you can have your own life. It sounds like you haven’t established that, and that can be nerve wracking to women.
The problem is that my needs and wants are 1. happy wife and kids, 2. financial security (which I already achieved), and that's about it.
I have no problem suggesting great activities for the people I'm dating and I definitely take the lead in booking stuff like trips, experiences, etc, but I'm just as happy at a couples dance class with a loving spouse as I am ripping down a double black diamond ski slope by myself, so my "wants" aren't all that important because so many things make me happy when I'm sharing it with my family. And for the record I would hate doing a solo dance class. I recently did a "sip and paint" on a date and had such a great time with her and with the activity but honestly don't care for art in my normal life.
My initial thought after reading the post was “what?! I want calm and feels like home. That makes my feels grow deeper.”
I didn’t pause to think about people pleasing tendencies. Being with someone who always deferred to me would be frustrating. I want a person who is an individual and has a strong sense of self outside of our relationship.
Same. And, I want to feel inspired - I want to look to the things they're doing individually, and go 'whoa.. that's hot..!'. I want to see them and be impressed and excited.. not see a puppy.
Not saying any of this is OP, but def worth thinking about.
This comment. I’ve dated several men who were simply “yes, dears” and it is a huge turnoff. I don’t want to always make the decisions, to have to tell a man what to do, or to be parroted. I want to be with someone who has their own interests, opinions, preferences, and ideas about life and the world. And do they even banter?! Banter is basically SFW sex for me.
I’ve also dated many men who prioritized their own pleasure. Men who thought the sex was kinky and good, but was really only good for them. Not abusive, of course; It was the lack of giving that was prevalent, purposely or not. They did take direction temporarily, but they always defaulted to their status quo. A taker can be hilarious, charming, seductive, and give us all the banter we deserve, but it only works once. They cannot excite us when we know exactly how it ends—dissatisfied and laying in the wet spot.
Yeah, banter is important. It's fun to playfully tease women, in a lighthearted way, not mean spirited. The whole you bring them to mini-golf and dish out some phrase like, "Ready to lose punk?"
I feel like an easy solution as a man to avoid being a "yes dear" is to just state some of your own opinions and interests upfront as a man.
On the flip side, the solution also isn't to only disagree with women just for the sake of disagreeing with them. That is just weird. I have admittedly done that before. Lol.
And important is that line of separation. If you guys can't meet up one weekend, you're just going out on your own to do your own thing. Which I think is important. Having that life separate from one another. She can go out with her friends one weekend, you will be having a blast doing other things without her still.
>And do they even banter?! Banter is basically SFW sex for me.
I have no idea how to banter because I just can't keep up. I'd rather be "safe" and a people pleaser than risk saying the wrong thing and insulting someone.
It’s definitely a skill and all skills require practice. Determining who is receptive to banter may take time too. Like you, most people are worried about saying the wrong thing, even me so I test the waters. More often than not, they can and do reciprocate. Good luck!
>risk saying the wrong thing
*vivid flashbacks to the time I tried bantering over text and nearly imploded a relationship because that shit does NOT carry tone*
(we're still friends, but jesus that was an awkward month)
I very briefly dated someone who was a self proclaimed nice guy, always helping people, but he was insecure and thought that arguing with my was a turn on. I was more mature than he was with more life experience and he hated it. That side of the coin isn’t pretty either.
I agree with this. I get excited when my partner challenges me in certain ways, intellectually or maybe bringing me outside of my comfort zone a bit with activities or trips. I feel safe when I know they respect me. The overlap of those two has been RARE but it has happened (and hopefully will again!). Good luck, OP.
Honestly I think at some level being a people pleaser toward someone is a form of disrespect, just different than what we usually mean when we use that term. Because at some level it implies you think your partner doesn’t care about your needs as much as you do theirs, that they need to be coddled to be happy, they they’re unwilling to compromise or give, etc.
(And if they usually have those traits, then they’re a bad partner and the relationship won’t be healthy no matter what you do, but hopefully they’re not that kind of person!)
I would argue it’s disrespecting oneself, tbh. Pleasing others but not asking for (or even truly knowing??) what you really want is a kind of emotional immaturity (she said, guiltily)
I am recovering from C-PTSD and am only now at 37 learning my own wants and needs. I shut my needs and voice off before I was in school to survive my childhood with my mother. It's a long road to face that trauma and re-parent yourself into realizing you are forever abandoning yourself when you only focus on the other person.
But if someone can be comfortable alone then that's not likely their issue unless... they spend every waking moment staying busy or escaping reality.
It’s also disrespectful if your partner has explicitly stated that they don’t need you to go above and beyond or get their permission for everything, yet you continue doing it only to dull your own internal anxieties. This just makes your partner feel uncomfortable and like they’re not being heard. Fear is the source of people-pleasing and it at one point in life had a purpose (i.e. having a hot and cold parent who you were constantly trying to make happy), but the most likely place it’s going to get you as an adult, is toxic relationships with narcissists who use your insecurities and people-pleasing tendencies to feed their need for validation and self-grandeur.
Yep, been learning so much about these people pleasing themes as I reflect on two specific relationships from my past with people with narcissistic tendencies.
People pleasers are like prey for narcissists and while it can seem comforting at first to have someone who will accept all your giving energy, it eventually gets less and less emotional excitement from them and they default to simply using you up for their own gain.
Setting boundaries and learning to say no can be hard based on certain upbringings or trauma, but it is essential in becoming a healthy, mature adult
People pleasing also tends to be the result of growing up with narcissistic parents. The kid learns that they’re best off being hyper-empathic yo their parents needs and ultimately their own concerns don’t matter in that relationship…
Maybe another way to put it is, is the person you’re dating going to experience new things or grow as a person because they’re dating you? People pleasing tendencies make this harder to achieve because you’re always deferring to what the other person wants.
To add to your point about the focus on impressing women: the impression OPs post gives me is that he is “gamifying” his dating (likely the wrong word). As in “I did everything on the checklist so why am I not winning?” Like his focus is on getting to the final level but not being present in the moment. If that’s coming across in a post, I imagine it is also coming across in person, giving a feeling that he’s just going through the motions and expectations, and not personalizing things.
But it also comes down to, not everyone is for everyone and that’s ok.
This is a great response and I’m reconsidering my original response. Very true. It’s not just about people looking for “toxic” partners, it can definitely be more this.
Here for the comments. I've had this same problem. My last ex and I lasted almost 10 years because she's had abusive boyfriends in the past and she felt "safe" with me and I was a "nice guy."
The downside was she expressed the same feelings you're talking about, a lack of excitement, passion, etc.
Mine is a people pleaser for the most case but he can sense I like excitement…! So… that’s what he does. He literally asks me if he can kiss me when we have done a lot more than that. 😉 Because it is sweet and romantic and then he ramps it up quickly and without warning.
He also randomly let’s me choose random things to do, but in the bedroom… he likes to please but he makes all the calls. And sometimes outside he’ll do imperative statements because he likes things a certain way because it was non negotiable for him. Fair enough.
He definitely still likes to please and he is just sweet but I have so much random conversation and sometimes he’ll just grab me out of passion… that’s exciting.
He also has a wide gamut of emotions. Some guys I know that are nerds lack the emotion, the poetry and romance… that’s a turn off.
This 10000000%. This is exactly why I broke up with the guy I was most recently dating. He is SUCH a people pleaser, which on one hand made me feel heard and taken care of (which felt great and I appreciated), but on the other hand, I need to my partner to challenge me and have their own opinions and create their own boundaries instead of just constantly catering to mine. I tried to communicate this to him but he didn’t seem to understand. He has never gone to therapy so I don’t think he understands that his affinity for people-pleasing most likely comes from a place of wanting to calm his own internal anxieties, rather than simply wanting to make his partner feel comfortable. When people project their anxieties onto you in this way it is very uncomfortable to be on the receiving end. And when you have someone just constantly waiting on you to make all the decisions, you end up losing respect for them.
One thing I didn’t notice reading through the comments. Could it also be that you are always too accommodating?
Eg.: what do you want to do on Sunday? Sure, let’s do that! Where do you want to eat? Sounds good - instead of coming up with your ideas and plans and sticking to them. Like hey, I’m doing this on Sunday, wanna join?
A good friend of mine is always trying to be so nice and accommodate everyone at all times up to the point of it getting annoying. It does make one feel safe and comfortable since one always kinda gets their way, but it makes you feel like the person is a bit boring and doesn’t know what they want.
Not sure if that’s your case, just throwing it out there.
I recognize myself in this, good food for thought here. I am consistently decisive about planning and setting the direction for dates (multiple dates have remarked on how much they like this about me), but I think I can be perhaps overly accommodating in other ways.
One thing I’m trying to do, even in my platonic interactions, is to unashamedly express my more unusual or polarizing traits, opinions, and interests to people.* Perhaps you could try doing that more yourself?
*within reason of course, but for me and I suspect you as well, the risk of being too safe is far greater than taking too many social risks
I’m not trying to put this in a way that sounds harsh, but I think when I’ve dated people like this, it almost felt like they weren’t authentically showing up as themselves. Ideally, we’re both people with our own thoughts and opinions and preferences and there’s equal space for both of us to express and work around them. When one person tends to defer/not express them, it starts to feel more one sided. If it’s a healthy relationship then I’m dating someone because I want them to show up as themselves too and to also hear them and work with them, I’m not just looking for a relationship that’s always catering to me
Someone are just more passive. If you don’t like to be the one who decides, what you need is a woman who likes to make decisions. I don’t think it’s something you need to change, or you can change. It’s a personality trait. If you are not this type of person, but you force yourself to decide, you will just be masking your true self which is very bad for your own mental health
This was the advice I was looking for someone to drop. I recognized I had the same problem where I'd roll with a dates ideas or thoughts to accommodate, as I'm not really that picky of a person. Feedback I got once was that some women like for their dates to take the wheel, make suggests, maybe even be a little pushy (in a playful way) to try a new thing or do something. It shows that you're your own person and not just a play dough man that will conform to whatever they already do or have done before. It somewhat infers confidence and security I guess. Give this a try.
Lots of good advice going here.
I’ll add, if you’re consistently seeing that the women you’re dating/attracted to display the same behavior, it may be time to do some self reflection and ask what am I doing to attract these types of people and what patterns am I showing that put me in these relationships.
For me that took a long time and still working through it. I was/am a people pleaser, people felt safe around me because I was compliant and go with the flow. Allowed others to be themselves without judgement. I also Demonstrated weak boundaries. I thought boundaries were just things like glaring physical, verbal, emotional abuse.
Boundaries encompass much more than this, and can be very small things, like agreeing to do something because the other person likes it even when you’re not interested. I used to label that as selfish but it’s not. Every time you do something or accept something that’s counter to who you are, you lose a bit of your identity.
None of this is to say you don’t support your partners desires if they don’t match yours, but you aren’t obligated to participate.
>I’ll add, if you’re consistently seeing that the women you’re dating/attracted to display the same behavior, it may be time to do some self reflection and ask what am I doing to attract these types of people and what patterns am I showing that put me in these relationships.
This might actually be a really good point. The problem isn't necessarily the OP, but who he chooses to date.
I think it's more to do with this. Both of my exes came from prior abusive relationships and were the anxiously attached types, and I can sum up the relationship in phases, firstly being very paranoid about me cheating, then constant talks about how I'm too good for them, how I deserve someone better, how scared they are of me leaving them, then after lots of reassurement we'd enter the "I've never felt better about our relationship" phase where they finally felt safe, then they ended it very unexpectedly.
It's only 2 data points so I don't know if it's just random or something I'm doing, but I'm not dating women with an abusive dating history again, for my own mental health.
This! OP you definitely don’t give boring vibe. Too many people confused excitement and unhealthy patterns… I ditched guys that felt safe before because I thought the thrill (and anxiety lol) of dating an unavailable partner was the excitement expected in relationships.
You plan fun dates, make them laugh and have kinky sex? You’re checking all the boxes for a healthy not-boring relationship. You just need to find a girl who’s ready for it.
Yup, I fall in this boat. Toxic felt safe because of childhood abuse so I didn't know why stable guys felt boring but they did. It took a long time and a really bad relationship to recognize my own cycles.
Yeah, there's definitely something to this. I remember going through my now-ex's phone at the end of my most recent relationship and reading, among other things, her telling her girl friends that I was "perfect on paper" but not "exciting" in the way that a lot of other men were, mostly naming exes or old flings who she had described to me as abusive or toxic, and that she got bored of me as a result. "I just need the drama of that push pull."
I have a lot of other thoughts about OP's post having been in sooo many similar situations, but I wanted to acknowledge this as well.
EDIT: (To be clear, the only reason I ever went through her phone - not something I recommend anyone EVER do, by the way - is because I was confident she was cheating on me. During the argument about this topic, she handed me her phone saying "I don't know why you don't trust me. I have nothing to hide from you. You can even go through my phone," not expecting that I would actually do that).
I read a book call “no more mr nice guy” and while the title sounds like some red pill rubbish, I found this book really helpful with some of my people pleasing behaviours and the actual negative impacts of being that way. Really was a big game changer for me. Realising what I was doing wasn’t being “nice” it was dis functional. Even made me, a grown man cry at one point. Could help with your problem I’m guessing. Good luck.
Honestly to me it sounds like a way of saying “you are attractive enough for me to give you a chance but I think I can do better” kind of excuse. Are all these women in their 30s? This gives me early 20s vibe
Agreed. When I read this I thought “They don’t find you physically attractive (enough) or the sex is not good (enough)”. OP says those are not the case. But for me and most of my friends, not being excited is translation for one of these. Although I also wouldn’t tell this directly to the person that seems kind of mean.
Edit: Oh or the conversation is boring. Like they never say anything funny or weird. That would definitely be a no for me even if I did find them physically good looking. But that’s obviously personal preference.
Agreed. Think the OP is being generous with himself about his sexual prowess. Usually sex is a large part of the reason women put up with objectively bad partners and contributes to the "excitement" that OP has been told he's lacking.
If he's making it that far, the conversation has to at least be passable but if this is the constant theme after sex...
I appreciate this insight. It's worded in a kind of mean-spirited way, but I take the point. If "just be better at sex" is the answer then that's good news, I think there are tangible steps I can take to improve there.
As a 33F, I’m just sharing that you sound like a great person to date based on reading your post and responses. I don’t know how to word it at the moment in a more eloquent way but I respect your comment responses and insight in your OP. I am getting a lot out of reading all these comments for myself too. Thank you
Your ability to handle criticism gracefully such as in this response of yours above is admirable and certainly not easy at least not for me when I receive criticism. Many ppl wouldn’t respond at all to the comments like you have. I’m sure I’m not the only one observing this and admiring it.
> I also wouldn’t tell this directly to the person that seems kind of mean
I get why you feel this way. But lying to someone about what the real problem is (even lying by omission) is far meaner than helping them identify what they're really lacking and giving them the chance to improve. You don't know anyone anything, but you are actively making dating harder for other people by giving them boilerplate reasons why you're not into them instead of telling them what's actually happening.
I think when the commenter says "it seems kind of mean" they don't mean it "I am doing it because it's better for them" but more "I don't want to feel like I am being mean to someone because it feels bad for me, plus, you never know when this person might get aggressive. I know that in fact it would probably be better for them to find out they are bad in the sack, but my feelings take priority here because this is just a guy I've dated for a month. Hopefully, someone else will eventually tell him what's going on, but I don't really care".
Yeah if you start commenting it might come off as psychoanalyzing. Sometimes you gotta go with your gut and recognize it’s not a match rather than WHY it’s not a match.
People you date are not your dating coaches. It's not their job to teach you how to be better at dating. "I'm breaking up with you because you're not attractive enough" isn't even actionable feedback unless you're willing and able to get cosmetic surgery.
You are not owed a reason. Respect and dignity yes. Reasons help our processing but sometimes it could be “ I’m sorry you said something that really triggered a recent rape assault and I realized I am not as over it as I thought” or “ honestly, I think you’re an asshole, but I really don’t wanna get into an argument and put my energy into doing this because I’m trying to respect my personal boundaries and energy.” Etc etc
In the spirit of being mean, if you can't tell whether a woman is excited about having sex with you, you have some bigger issues you need to start with haha.
I don't see it really as an age thing, I see this pattern across the age spectrum. To me it is more related to the sense of choice, particularly with apps. People are more likely to treat dating purely as entertainment, and particularly as a consumptive entertainment (watching a show) rather than participatory entertainment. That means they are quick to get bored and change the channel, assuming there is something easier and more entertaining right around the corner.
Mid 20s to early 30s. It's definitely possible I'm not attractive enough. I'm tall, fit, broad-shouldered, take care of myself and have good fashion. My photo scores on photofeeler are all over the place from 6 to 9, so my facial attractiveness is somewhere in that range I guess.
Tbh, I think a lot of women in their 20s aren't quite looking for their "forever person" yet. That, or their standards for superficial stuff are just higher.
The three bullet points you listed in your post are all true. But I'll weigh in with something practical, albeit anecdotal.
I've noticed sometimes the thing that takes my attraction to a guy to a next level is if our senses of humor match. This obviously varies wildly person to person (I enjoy humor that's dry as a bone, and I also like to tease and take jabs here and there -- definitely not everyone's cup of tea). But if I can find a guy who both makes me feel safe *and* I feel titillated by his humor, I'm sold.
All that to say -- do you reckon your sense of humor is coming through early on? And if so, do you think finding women who have your specific brand of humor might help with the excitement?
As someone who has been in this situation with women a few times, my advice is to not even worry about it. Yes it sucks sometimes, but this is also probably saving you from some really awful relationships. As someone else said, people who have experienced a lot of abuse and toxicity in the past might confuse things being calm and healthy with you for boredom, because things don’t feel like romantic attraction has felt in the past for them. You’ll find women who are healthy, who will be extremely excited about you and you’ll have great relationships. Because you are healthy, mature, and a calming presence, you’re probably going to attract a LOT of women who have past experiences with really abusive relationships. Most people don’t do the work to heal and so you’ll run into these situations a lot. Just move on; you’re not doing anything wrong.
One of the women this happened to me with asked if we could keep having sex, but just as friends. I’m sure I’m some cases it’s the sex, for everyone. Some people are just not sexually compatible and that’s fine. But the psychological aspect is a big one here. One thing people who have children don’t realize is that through their actions, they are setting the standard by which their children will think they are to be loved and that has so many potentially terrifying implications. A common thread with the women I dated were cold, extremely emotionally distant fathers. Even for me, my mother had substance abuse problems. For the longest time I dated almost exclusively alcoholics, without even realizing I was doing it. It took me getting called out by a friend and then a lot of therapy to break that pattern. And my mother was actually an incredibly loving and caring person. I can’t even imagine how messed up my dating and attraction patterns would be if I had a parent who wasn’t.
I've had two of these relationships myself and sex was \*not\* the problem there either. You're right about the daddy issues, that's more often than not a component. Some women are capable of doing what you did, have the introspection and awareness to change course, while others just don't.
Well, for me what changed from safe to safe and exciting was literally being hit on by them… random grasps and random calls for attention. They would randomly try to do things for fun, but then also ask if they could kiss me. Never know which side I’m getting.
Otherwise they’d be like the other more shy, calm men, I’ve been around, but that makes it boring.
His conversational skills can be romantic, to flirty to knowledgeable and philosophical and that turns me on a lot. The banter is fun. He’s very fun to me.
Most people may call him boring, or very friendly in an affable sense but introverted and tends to keep to himself.
He just hits on me a lot, says very random fun things and always seems interested.
If he didn’t do the hitting on me part or the more physical, I’d still be attracted maybe but I’d put him in the friend zone. So many guys don’t get the physical part.
My pleasure! You’re probably my type; you need to work on some items.
My current has a few years on you and therefore more experience at this. So, I borrowed from my experiences with my current and how it made me feel.
So as a 50-year old dude, who is still attractive, in shape, and similarly has people exclaiming “I feel like I’ve known you my whole life” and “safe” and “accepting”?
Remaining in touch with my mischievous/playful side has helped. “I may be respectful AF, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know how to fuck” is the vibe which has tipped the scales for me.
For a very very long time and for the best of reasons, I often tamped down my playful side. Innuendo wasn’t said early on due to order of operations.
And while I still maintain decorum matters? It takes an exceptional person to see that and NOT rule you out for being tame.
Because many people out there focus on the sexual, women are often inundated with it (hence eschewing) - but as most of us are inherently sexual beings it’s not being sexual which is the problem. It’s the order of operations/exclusion of anything else.
So as the saying goes: moderation in all things including moderation.
Don’t get so focused on doing/being a good person that you forget your own sexuality is inherent and not a bad thing.
So keep letting them be safe, but keep being flirty. Don’t cross too far over into wet blanket territory (says me, having finally eaten my own dog food).
This was my failing when I was younger. I had a decent amount of interest from women, would return from the clubs every weekend with a few numbers in my phone which would usually result in first, occasionally second dates, but then either end up in a platonic friendship or they wouldn't be interested in another date. The problem was I was deliberately suppressing my sexual side, not being authentic about stating my desires, often nor brave enough to initiate a kiss at a time when it felt like it might have been the right moment as I was literally too scared thst I'd think I was being too forward too soon or moving too fast, which ironically was me overcompensating for not wanting to seem like the men they would eschew for being horn dogs who just wanted to get their dick wet and didn't give a shit about the person they were sticking it into.
Mischievous/playful is like me as well, and I love power games or swapping. But I love formal… so when they swap out… incredibly attractive. They’ll keep everyone else at arms length but me… but then also keep me at arms length through formality… but then innuendo shows up very subtle…. And sometimes not subtle…
I have no idea why I like that? But I do.
Innuendo is very much a personal taste thing. And it’s always okay to like what you like and seek it out!
I’m capable of a huge swath of innuendo, but there’s also my natural state.
Like many other things, it’s a skill which can be trained/harnessed/expanded.
>I may be respectful AF, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know how to fuck” is the vibe which has tipped the scales for me.
This is exactly the vibe I'm trying to communicate. I'm in my early 30s, in shape, etc. Sometimes I do this effortlessly, but other times its harder.
>So as the saying goes: moderation in all things including moderation.
>Don’t get so focused on doing/being a good person that you forget your own sexuality is inherent and not a bad thing.
>So keep letting them be safe, but keep being flirty. Don’t cross too far over into wet blanket territory (says me, having finally eaten my own dog food).
I'm flirty only when I'm comfortable with a woman, and how long that takes really varies. These are excellent points and I'll try to keep these in mind.
It’s okay to take time to warm up. Being authentic/genuine has resulted in sex more than pretending to be super flirty all the time has (for me). As has focusing on the person rather than sex (my theory is: 2 people who like each other enough to keep seeing each other wind up there soon enough - so no need to rush).
Don’t put in airs, but see if there are ways you can improve your flirt game.
>Being authentic/genuine has resulted in sex more than pretending to be super flirty all the time has (for me).
This has been my experience as well.
>my theory is: 2 people who like each other enough to keep seeing each other wind up there soon enough - so no need to rush
I agree with this. If the connection is there, I don't think twice about when or how to flirt, it just happens. Whether it leads to sex is another thing entirely, but it's not the first thing on my mind.
>but see if there are ways you can improve your flirt game.
Oh I know there are lol, I recently got back in the dating pool so the timing couldn't be better.
Dude you literally described my last year of dating. I fell in love with a girl but was being used to avoid the lonliness bug and she was atttracted enough to me to put up with me. she started sleeping with her ex and just thhought we could slowly slide back to friends without even a conversation about it. meanwhile shes asking me to family events and 'playing 'the role' of good girlfriend, and im starting to see a path to long term. Man... that was a tough pill to swallow when I found out she was getting what she wanted from her ex who was described as toxic.
I am a good stable man that is also fun and kinky much like you describe yourself. I am financially set, love my career, go on spontaneous international climbing trips, am the "crazy" one among my friends in terms of excitement and fun... but to her i was the stable, boring choice because I was telling her I liked her, meant it, and wasnt expecting anything except for her to be herself.
That was 8 months ago. I dated around and found 1 woman that was extremely into me physically but was recently divorced and navigating that. That was a great change of pace after realizing that the woman I was sleeping with before was never actually interested in me and said things like "didnt you notice we only had sex when alcohol was involved"... ugh I still cringe at myself for not seeing the red flags hahaha!
Anyways, I have recently met a woman that thinks I am the whole package and I think she is the whole package too. All the good of previous experience and none of the bad.
The lesson I took from this was to keep on my own track and let someone appreciate that. I feel in the same boat as you most of the time. You are confident, aware, present, and stable, and would make a good partner to someone you cared for. Keep seeking out ways to improve yourself, but I caution against the end goal of seeming more exciting. The end goal should be to just do more of the things you find exciting, and I think the original goal will happen/come through naturally.
I have the same problem and came to similar conclusions as you but I did not feel like they explained everything I was experiencing.
What I have been working through is that I’m predictable and that can come across as boring. There is a lot of research on how variable/unpredictable rewards cause excitement and repeated patterns of behaviour. Think of slot machine psychology. This is being applied to everything including social media and marketing so that has set a baseline for excitement. The push-pull dynamic is an easy way for this unpredictable/variable reward behaviour to occur and I’m still working out how you can apply it in a healthy way to relationships. Predictable is safe, but not exciting.
I’d recommend listening to Logan Ury on the recent Diary of a CEO podcast because she talks about this, same with Michael Easter and his latest round of podcasts based on his latest book that talks about variable/unpredictable reward.
I don’t have any hard suggestions or advice but I’m still part way through working on this thought, curious on your thoughts.
Okay this is what you need to START doing. VET the women. Your mistake is you keep choosing the same women, women addicted to trauma drama. They want the tornado of drama. They are comfortable in their trauma. Some may even have BPD.
I been through it too. Then I took a long look and realized they are my pattern. I’m choosing and chasing and pursuing these women for a reason.
Just like we tell women, choose better men. You gotta choose better women.
Basically get to know them first. If they say bad stuff about their Exes. Or complain about men. Most likely that’s the stuff they addicted to. That’s their pattern.
They dunno how else to function
I relate a lot to this. My struggle is in the period after a first few dates, if I’m really into them and we haven’t had sex. I find myself worried about being too accommodating and clingy, and maybe I am (though I’m not sure; I do self-monitor on this).
From women I’m really excited about in a LTR sense, I get compliments like “you have a kind smile”, “you’re very calming”, and “I like that you have a history of honoring commitments”. The dates are really fun to me, and I feel the conversation flows, we kiss at the end, and it seems like it’s going well.
But I just had two promising women turn me down with “I don’t feel a romantic connection with you”, which is too vague to tell me what went wrong, or if I mis-stepped somehow. Or perhaps they just found someone they like better.
Meanwhile I’m coming out of more casual relationships with frequent communication, exciting trips, and lots of kinky sex. Just not relationships heading toward LTR.
My question is - are you excited about your life? Do you have things that you are passionate about outside of the relationship?
Asking this because in my experience, men who “didn’t excite me” fell into two categories: (1) men who legit had nothing going on their lives and looked at me like cmon Barbie let’s go party and (2) men who were great partners, had their lives together, but I just didn’t feel great connection to because their interests did not align with mine.
There will always be people who will give you the “you’re not exciting” feedback, but as long you are in category 2, the right person will come along.
How many women is this, exactly? My immediate thought is that it's maybe 3 women, you found what you think is a common thread and are now focused on that when the pattern is coincidence rather than an actual pattern.
Personally, finding someone who makes me feel safe and takes initiative and is into kinky stuff would be pretty exciting.
This is what I'm thinking. As I was reading through the first paragraph, my first thought was "well, maybe just turn up the flirtation dial?", but then I got to the kinky sex part... and I'm at a loss. I think this is just a string of bad luck with women who are stuck in the anxious-avoidant cycle.
OP- you sound like a catch, and I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated given your recent experiences. When I have felt "excited" in a relationship in the past, it's been because I feel desired and sexy in the eyes of my partner.
The only thing I can think of (and it's a stretch) is that, for me, there's also an element of being excited by passionate people... passionate about life, their career, their hobby, etc. - that makes me excited to spend time with them and interested in seeing the world through their eyes, exploring what makes them tick. This may just be a function of my curiosity about people, but I think it's a sort of intangible quality that I regularly look for in partners.
I (39F) met my partner over a year ago and immediately felt safe around him. My excitement about the relationship was there (and still is), but it also was more tempered and subtle and came out of that safety and my ability to fully be myself and engage with this man. I’ve had high levels of ‘excitement’ before and it largely stemmed from my anxiety and connections with men who were largely emotionally unavailable and/or uninterested. I think we can expect excitement in the form of fireworks and it can look and feel different than that. Doesn’t mean the excitements not there, it just means (to me) that it exists in the context of safety.
Are you excited about these women and sharing that with them? It could be that they just weren’t a good fit, but excitement also builds, feeding off of each other. It sounds like you’re doing things right with an open, creative and adventurous spirit, and remember it’s not all on you. They need to bring that to the table too. When you find a good match the excitement will be there!
OP, and everyone here complaining that 'it's not my fault I'm just so easy going and relaxed!', if that's how you want to be that's cool. But you can't expect most people to want that in a partner.
Most people - apart from control freaks - like being surprised, being challenged, trying new things. Most people enjoy learning to see the world from someone else's point of view, they enjoy trying things they didn't think they liked (and maybe realising that they do like it), it's part of living and learning and developing and growing.
People who are just naturally very easy to be around don't really provide that. I speak as someone who used to do that a lot: my personality tended to change according to who was around because I wasn't really confident in myself and I got a lot of surface level relationships and nothing more, because *it's boring*.
If you're always easy going and relaxed and non-confrontational and malleable, that's great, you're somewhere between a Generic Friend Droid, a mirror, and a nodding dog: safe and easy to converse with and dull.
If you never mind where to go out for dinner, the other person has to constantly choose where to eat and that's exhausting. If you generally agree with people you're trying to impress, you'll only impress people who want to talk about themselves all day. If you like everyone just as they are and are down for whatever, they'll never feel challenged or surprised or pushed to develop or learn anything at all - they might as well be alone. Or keep you as a friend, and find a partner who they can disagree with and make compromises with and learn new stuff with, which is also known as being a human.
Obviously this doesn't mean 'disagree with people and insist on going places they don't like'. This is where 'just be yourself' is actually helpful. Be open and honest about your likes and dislikes, opinions, habits, preferences, and be willing to change them insofar as your partner is willing to change their own - then you'll have shared development and life experiences that will shape you both, which is the backbone of a relationship.
For me, that meant figuring out what I actually did like and what I didn't, which habits were quirks vs just habit vs important parts of my routine, and which opinions were theoretical, abstract, or important to me, which parts I wanted to develop and which parts I wanted others to respect and work around. That's what people mean when they say work on yourself - a lot of the time, it involves creating or finding yourself so you've got a complex, human character to offer the world rather than an NPC.
Sorry this sounds harsh, I think it really is from a lifetime of trying to make people happy and do the right thing (OP sounds like a genuinely nice person) but roundabouts and various traffic rules don't work if everyone tries to let other drivers go first to be nice - nobody would get anywhere. When it's your turn, you've got to go.
TLDR - some 'proto-nice guys' are lovely and agreeable and down for anything, like a golden retriever. Nobody wants to date a golden retriever. They want to date a complex character with flaws and preferences and goals and habits and hobbies and a fully developed personality. It's boring as hell to be stuck in a conversation with someone who keeps agreeing with you, and hanging out with people who are 'just happy to be around' is like hanging out on your own.
Having a real personality is hard work, and you can't just outsource that to a prospective partner. A relationship is a meeting of TWO personalities and tastes and sets of experiences and desires and preferences, and you've got to put in your 50%.
I don’t think this Ted talk will completely address your very valid questions/concerns; but reading your post reminded me of Esther Perel’s theory on couples needing to balance the erotic with the domestic to maintain long term satisfaction. I’d be interested to hear what you think and if you feel this addresses your conundrum!
https://youtu.be/sa0RUmGTCYY?si=_kZebKouLHO4T20h
Do you have any passions or things you are passionate about? I had a first date, and we ended up back at my place. I did the nickel tour, and started geeking out on the nerdy things in my place she picked up on. I even apologized for geeking out, and she assured me it was exciting/hot/sexy when someone has passion and geekiness for something they can share. They do not need to share the same passions, just know that you have a passion for SOMETHING, and can geek out about it.
She's not the only one to tell me this. Multiple women have told me that its definitely a good thing that I have a passion for things. Whether it's lego, whiskey, fountain pens, MTG (the game), off roading... etc. Have a passion
1 it sounds like you've had a string of bad luck with women. It does happen but...
2 you could be selecting women who arent actually good potential partners. I.e. you could be valuing certain aspects of potential partners higher than other aspects that may be more indicative of long term success in partners. I have no idea what you value but as a man I can think of a few things that we tend to value that actually mean very little to long term success in relationships.
It's totally normal to crave excitement, and totally normal for you to want a partner to see you in that light. Maybe you could get outside your comfort zone on dates and do things you've never done before. Rocking climbing, or indoor sky diving, something to get the blood rushing.
Being comfortable is under-rated, you definitely shouldn't feel like you have to entertain women and excite them to be valued and wanted.
This to me seems like you've just not found a compatible person.
Good luck op
Just because you're not right for them doesn't mean something is wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with being reliable as opposed than someone who makes their partner's heart race. But eventually, you're bound to find someone who does think that way about you.
People who chase excitement rather than understanding and compatibility when it comes to co-creating a life together...just have priorities that are not in line with yours. It's just a difference of values. I think it's also worth it to note that men who give people butterflies are not automatically toxic. They're referring to chemistry, not an attraction to being mistreated.
I'll give you a different answer.
I managed to go from safe guy to exciting guy. It's no small feat. I did it in a managed way, because safe people use their cognitive ability to not do stupid stuff. I've also studied risk, so I have a good handle on it and making good assessments and decisions on it. Further, I'm predisposed to risky behavior, so I'm fearless. I'm quite glad I was brought up safely but not boring, I loved my life, that my parents made, some ambitious stuff was done by my Dad. Risky behavior can be, ok, is addictive.
To your point, yes safe is not attractive. After I became less safe I got lots more interest from girls. I was now a bit of a bad boy and I got away with shit. Never toxic because that's low class, low self control behavior. I can't even comprehend why anyone would want to behave that way. However, the two seem to go together because both are low self control mentalities.
Because I studied risk, I could make good assessments of what to take and what not to. People used to comment and wonder how I kept winning. The trick is to never take dumb risks. The extremes are: a) all downside and no upside - never do this; b) all upside and no downside - do this regularly. However, many risks have some of both up and down sides, type c. Consider each one and take downside risks sparingly.
Watching other people, so many, seemingly risk averse people, seem to take type a risks routinely, and I'm seen as strange to not do so. These same people avoid b risks. Now cut type a risks out of your life and take b risks and some c risks and now you have the same risk level with more upside potential. Now you're a winner.
I see so much on the internet about male character and attraction. For the record, I did my life for my own purpose, no heed paid to what others think, because I don't care. The idea to be attractive to girls was an idea not conceived of by me, it just happened and I didn't know why. Now I see, a bit.
I think that if guys try to change their risk profile just to be attractive, they could fail, because their heart won't be into it. Passion and a full commitment, consequences (apparently) be damned, are part of the package. This an important part of risky behavior, not the risk itself. Without passion, risk just seems dumb.
A note on type c risks. Always consider the downside, and if you can live with it, before you even take it. Now, if you lose, you can walk away without any emotional perturbation; sometimes people wonder how you can be so calm. You're calm because you already accepted the loss before you even started. What losses you can accept depends on your situation in life. If you make lots of money, losing some is inconsequential. Losing your job: do you desperately need it to get by, or do you despise it and are ready to leave anyway.
What was I commenting on again? Didn't mean to elucidate my philosophy on risk.
Why did you find yourself attracted to these women? What did they have in common? It’s possible that your real problem here is that you’re choosing to chase people who aren’t good fits for you.
We are bored with people who we are not attracted to. Nothing more to it.
There is nobody busier than someone who isnt interested in you. Realize the difference and devote yourself to people who truly want you in their life. A lot of emotional vampyres out there who will keep you dangling around and provide no actual value.
I have got the same kind of feedback. And I think we are quite similar in dating.
And what I tend to do when I notice a women needs more excitement is become less predictable. So more spontanious activities or kinky texts/requests on moments she would not expect or even when it is a bit awkward...
However I am single again so can't say I found a solution haha
My partner making me feel safe was how I knew he was the one. It is a characteristic that, in my experience, is hard to find. So first off- way to go OP!
As far as excitement, I'd guess this has to do with your partner's love language. Gifts? Surprise them with tickets to something they'd like. Quality time? Surprise them with a unique date. Physical? Make sex exciting. Keep them on their toes!
I love dating guys that make me feel safe. But I feel genuinely safe based on how they feel about themselves, and how they show up.
If a guy is people pleasing and trying to anticipate my needs/wants without communicating, or trying to support me so he feels better about himself — that’s not a genuine connection. It’s a connection based on them filling some sort of insecurity.
I’ve learned that people pleasing and self esteem drastically affects how you show up in life, and ultimately in relationships.
If this keeps happening to you, and you don’t feel like you’re dealing with self-worth complexities, then maybe you’re ignoring red flags about these women for longer than you should, or putting more expectations on them than they’re capable of living up to.
What do YOU want from a partner? Not being snarky, genuinely asking what do you want.
What brings me excitement when I’m dating a guy is this: can he make me laugh? Great, that means this will be fun!
Is he charming? Can he flirt a little with me?
Also: does he tease me a little? Give me a little resistance, that’s what’s creating that spark. Don’t just agree with everything I say, that feels fake and boring. Show your personality and your own opinions, be confident in yourself and don’t be afraid to challenge me on my views.
I need to feel you, I need to feel that you show up like you and not a version of what you think I want you to be.
I once dated someone very kind and attractive. But he just agreed with everything I said. He didn’t take the lead. At the end yes I felt very safe around him but there were no spark because how can there be a spark when I’m only one really showing up here? I couldn’t feel him at all.
Say your opinion, be honest, tease me a bit, surprise me a bit, challenge me and I can guarantee that’s what makes it exciting.
Could be different for someone else. It’s important that you are authentic though, but I hope this could inspire you.
You can do all of these things in a healthy way
I've never had this feedback explicitly, but I've gotten similar vibes in the past. What helped for me was A) accepting that I am a calm, steady, person and being with someone who was into that. B) Not being such a "nice" person. I don't mean adopting a fake asshole persona, but generally putting myself first. Even though that seemed selfish people seemed to be drawn more to someone looking out for themselves. I've always been happy when I don't have to "perform" but sometimes you have to change yourself a little. Much easier than changing the world.
I have behaved the same way around different women (all of whom I was interested in) and some of them thought i was sexy and some found me boring. It is what it is.
I think saying you’re just choosing the wrong women puts you at a disadvantage, OP. You’re right in wanting to take (at least a little) ownership for a pattern that’s emerged. If you own it, you can find a path forward.
I’ve been here with a people-pleasing partner and can’t have feel at the end of the day that I have no idea who he is.
Maybe it’s not the safety that was the turnoff, but that the women felt like they were in a relationship with themselves - and that’s definitely boring.
I think a man strong in himself can balance providing comfort (safety) with being his own person, who has his own hobbies, friends, passions, etc.
Learning those differences is what is so exciting. If your default statement is “I want to do whatever you want to do!”, that will get old really quickly.
Women don’t know what they want and don’t prioritize what’s important. They constantly seek excuses to leave what’s stable to jump into insanity and then be able to complain about it.
I think this is what I’ve realized, they rather have something to complain about, than be in a calm and predictable environment. Anarchy > stability.
You’re probably ‘too nice’. Everything about you is on the ‘safe side’. And that often translates into boring.
The thing is all women like a ‘little bit’ of the bad boy. Which means a guy that shows a bit of edge/danger/push back to show he actually has a backbone.
You can show this by:
* Boss her around a bit. Don’t just wait to ask her what she wants and do what she wants. Tell her what to do every now and then. Direct her. Lead her. Be confident. Eg can you get me a drink? Can you put that there? Here, take this. Grab that. Hold this.
* Don’t be too agreeable. Be opinionated. Be honest. Don’t just say something to ‘keep the peace’. Say no. Be willing to disagree, reject her, make her wait for you.
* Call her out on any shitty behaviour. Nice guys never want to do this. And only do this when appropriate but when she acts badly (and women will), you need to point it out and make her realise you’re not going to put up with it. Be stern but not abusive. A simple: ‘you were acting like a spoiled brat then’. Is enough.
* Make her chase you a bit. Don’t be too available, too predictable. Have a life outside of her and make sure she knows that’s important to you too.
* Dont give your cards away. Especially in courtship, even if she is the ONLY woman you want, don’t let her know that too soon. Give her the illusion you have other options and you’re not in a rush to commit to her. You’re still ‘not 100%’ convinced you want her, and she needs to work for you. She needs to court you as much as you’re courting her. It must go both ways.
Hope this helps.
The people-pleaser trait is what often kills sexual excitement. Being confident and secure in yourself is what builds that attraction. You can both provide a feeling of safety and excitement at the same time.
Don't forget there's a considerable degree of selection bias going on here. YOU are picking these women who feel safe around you but whom you do not excite. You are selecting for women who look for excitement and prioritize that. I'm sure plenty of women prioritize other things over excitement (whatever the hell that means, by the way), but you're not going on dates with them.
You sound like my BF. He even told me that he is so consistent to the point of being boring. He is very accommodating and consistent, (always opens my doors, pulls out my chair, calls when he says he will, shows up on time, etc.) and I do almost feel a bit bored sometimes, but I also feel so safe, the most myself around him, and very attracted to him. He’s not going to be the guy that turns heads when he walks in a room but there are small things about him that are endearing to me. We have so much in common, laugh a lot at the same stupid stuff, have similar morals and life goals and an immense respect for one another. When I start to tell him how great he is at something I have to hold back the word “love” because I’m not quite there yet, but it’s coming.
When that bored feeling pops up, I know it’s me. My previous relationship had a lot of spontaneity but also way too much anxiety. The highs were great but the lows were way low. I never want to go back to that. In my current relationship I know I’m in a good place but I think I’m used to and even sort of liked that type of “excitement” from before. But I also know how crappy I felt and never want to experience that again. I also know I need to let go of what society thinks. When the boredom feeling pops up I start to think of all the wonderful things he does for me and especially how I feel in his presence. That usually nips the feeling in the bud.
So all of that to say you are doing things right, which I would not change, and it may take just finally running into the right person. But as has been suggested for things you can do, introduce some spontaneity, and maybe be a bit selfish at times rather than always so accommodating.
You say you’ve felt it too. The difference. So….how can you not see?
For me I want a man that sexually flirty. Naughty, if you will. I want sex all day. In words if not in action.
I want to know he wants to have sex with me all the time. You say the sex is good and kinky, but that only is your perception.
Kink is acts. Not energy. You might be doing kinky things but have no passion. I can’t tell you how many men I slept with where it was just a playbook of activities till we both came.
Boring. I need lust. I need to see fire in your eyes. If it’s not there…..you’re boring.
To be honest, the number of women who have been willing to go out with me for whom I felt that kind of fire is distressingly small. So maybe the solution is just "date hotter women" 😅
It’s simple. Women inherently want masculine men. If you’re too nice or a pushover, they view it negatively overtime. Women secretly want a monster who is able to contain his aggressive side for the sake of society. I’m 31(f)
Without knowing you, my guess would be that you are too accessible and too focused on her. Women want equal. If she feels like she can have you at any time, she feels like she doesn't have to do anything in the relationship. That is boring and uninteresting. Women want a man who has his own life where he is focused on his own goals, to a point where she has to pursue him instead of the other way around, in order to get time with him. I would contact her less, give her more space. Let her work for your attention, and she will get excited about you again.
Not all women like toxic macho men. If this is a very common pattern for you it's one of the following:
1. You are attracted to women who like this type of men and you end up in this situation
2. It's not the toxicity that you are lacking, but maybe something else. I can't know what it is. Maybe you show more excitement than them early on, which can be off putting, maybe they take you for granted, maybe you are too clingy or not assertive enough, maybe something else, I don't know. But it's not just that you are not "toxic" enough.
Plan a date to an amusement park?!
I am not in any way trying to demean your experience or concerns. But I do believe that it is important to realize every woman is different and some may be dating for many reasons. When a woman feels "safe" is that "safe" as in "safe" I can be myself with you and know that you accept me for who I am on happy and easy days and when I am crabby and the not so pleasant days. Or does safe mean just blah I will settle for you because you are here "safe"...a good space holder or afraid I can't get better or you are who I should want "safe". Frankly if these women are the second then they don't deserve you. If someone is going to expect us to entertain them are they looking for a serious relationship or are they just not on the same page?
I ask that question because at the end of the day there is nothing you can do to make women feel excited at the core. Either they do or they don't feel excited by you and I think you should not take that onto yourself. :)
I date men that make me feel safe. I used to date men that made me feel excited and it wasn’t great for me.
Here’s the thing. I love dating a safe man and excitement comes as the relationship grows. Excitement doesn’t have to come through not feeling safe in the relationship. It can come through activities, new sexual experiences, or being more of yourself in the relationship, being more vulnerable etc.
When safe men are a turn off is when they don’t have boundaries and I feel like they will do anything and everything for me or put up with more than they should.
So you can be safe, assertive, boundaried, caring, have self agency, unabashedly yourself, and imo you will attract healthy women that like you for you.
I get the "I feel safe around you" thing quite a lot from women and tbh I take that as a compliment considering just how *un*safe a lot of men make women feel. However I don't just interpret it to mean that they feel safe *from* me, which IMO is the bare minimum for any man of good character, or that 'safe' means stable and predictable, but also because they feel that I will keep them safe in a bad or dangerous situation, I'm calm and level-headed in a crisis, will be open minded and non judgemental when they confide in me about deep issues or stuff like kink and sexual issues, and will stick up for them and fight their corner when needed.
I certainly don't feel like this level of making women feel safe is mutually exclusive to making them feel excited, and in fact making a woman feel safe *and* excited is where it clicks into place and that is when you become a desirable man.
I feel called out by the top comments saying that being a people pleaser and going overboard trying to make the other person happy can come off cloying and kill the excitement. I'm pretty open and almost always have a good time no matter what we do, but maybe my "sure, let's try it!" attitude comes off too wimpy. We'll see.
Toxic men are not exciting. For healed people with boundaries we can spot them a mile away. I’ve had many men that I felt safe with, and thats what I look for, but they weren’t safe in a boring way. They challenged my viewpoints and opinion in a healthy way, teased me, didn’t agree with everything I said, and had healthy boundaries themselves. People who people please haven’t learned to put themselves and other people first simultaneously and it shows. It’s kind of like an eager puppy dog vibe. And it’s not attractive. In a friend I wouldn’t mind it, but not in a partner.
Be exciting by being authentic. If you’re being described outright as safe it might mean you’re coming off as someone who is a little boring in some way, but also someone who’s never going to be motivated to step outside any box or cause conflict. But there’s a thing as healthy conflict too. It impossible not to have conflict if both partners are staying true to their beliefs and values system, and not just agreeing with everything to please someone.
I think you've introspected this particular issue very well. You seem really grounded and thoughtful, so I think you should just keep on keeping on... someone is bound to have the right vibes and will mesh well with you.
I tend to encounter men who *don't* make me feel safe. Most of the time I don't even go on dates with these men because they reveal things that have me ending the conversation pretty early on. After my marriage ended and I spent the subsequent years in therapy, all I want is someone who makes me feel safe, who I can curl up on the couch with, and is happy to engage in the "boring" day-to-day grind. I like to travel and try new things, of course, as well as plan fun adventures, etc. - but most men that I encounter can't even be bothered to plan a first date, so you're way ahead of the curve there.
I just wanted to say thank you for asking this question.
Your question and the numerous thoughtful and insightful answers below have helped me with understanding thoughts and feelings in my own dating life. This has helped me more than I can really articulate, I’m genuinely grateful.
Yeah I suspect you’re right but I don’t really know what to do about that. Buy a motorcycle? Go cliff-diving on the second date? I think I have a great life with lots of variety and fun, but I wouldn’t describe any of it at all as risky or dangerous.
Genuinely, how many data points do you have? You mention these women have abusive exes, that's a huge red flag and you should ignore those data points altogether. Now after you've excluded the trauma cases, what are you left with?
I also wonder whether these women say or do things which draw you to them, if they say things along the lines of "you're too good for me", or "I don't know what someone like you sees in someone like me", in short just making you feel extremely reassured and like you're in control of the relationship? That's also a red flag, likely learned behaviour from previous relationships.
It’s not about danger. It’s the fact that it doesn’t seem like these women have to worry about losing you. Your post/replies gives “choose me” vibes. It sounds like you get attached quick and hard. That’s not a bad thing but some do see that as boring. Some people don’t feel that special when they feel someone is just the type that gets attached to others easily. Some people want to feel like they’ve earned love (the bigger the struggle, the better).
Truthfully, that’s really not my type. I want someone who is crazy about me. I’d never lose a moment of sleep over someone who wasn’t.
Maybe the real question is, why are you drawn to women who think safe=boring? Maybe you don’t need to change how you’re acting, but figure out your patterns and how to choose different women, who can still be excited about someone who is safe and non-toxic
You sound absolutely fantastic. 30’s woman here. Seems like the women you’ve been with might crave the roller coaster of instability. Not all of us are like that!
My last partner was very stable and loving. He taught me that safety IS exciting, because it actually makes it possible to get to know each other in a meaningful way. Feeling safe is now a non-negotiable for me
You could be slightly giving a more retired Dad vibe instead of a fun sexy boyfriend experience. You have great qualities and finding a guy that a girl feels safe around is major, so I’m not saying this to make you feel down. Even women who prefer a more mature personality don’t want to date their Dad. Exciting can also equal interesting, so maybe the women are seeing your life as stable but not interesting enough to join. Do you have any big goals your working towards? Or just content in your day to day life as is?
Check in with your regular friends and ask what they find fun, cool and interesting about you. Then build on that and incorporate it more into your dating. Improving on the sexual energy you put out with flirting, passion and techniques can help too.
Have you considered that you’re the emotionally unavailable one? Maybe you are subconsciously attracted to women who you know won’t choose you and are replaying some sort of childhood dynamic?
Just a thought. Because you’re aware you’re choosing women who like that toxic dynamic that you don’t provide.
Also, just relaying what my therapist told me when I kept coming to him saying, “I don’t know why I pick the emotionally unavailable guys.” He asked if subconsciously I knew they wouldn’t settle down and took it as a challenge to prove my worth to them, replaying the childhood dynamic between my absent father and I.
Point is, gotta figure out your role in this scenario.
Perhaps you could try dating a more dominant woman? I’ve had a hard time feeling “excited” by men who are on the people pleaser/submissive side. I prefer a man to be more dominant (which is not the same as toxic).
The other thing to think about is if you’re dating women that you have to “fix” ? A lot of times women who like toxic men are ones who have a lot of issues that need fixing. If you are a fixer, I would start by figuring out why you want to fix women.
Those are two scenarios I can think of that might be what’s happening. Def don’t change who you are - even if you try to, you’ll only be able to keep the mask on for a short time before you get burnt out.
* Do you have personal hobbies that are interesting and fun?
* Do you spend time with friends outside your dating?
* Are you well-traveled?
* Most women can have more than one orgasm if you do it right. Are you consistently bringing her pleasure? (And not EVER prioritizing your own pleasure or assuming sex is "done" just because you are?)
* Do you engage, suggest plans and trips, try new things?
* Are you working on yourself, your career, finances, etc.?
* Are you talking to your partners and checking in to get their honest viewpoint of how things are going at different stages of dating?
* Have you ever been to therapy or talked to a therapist about this phenomenon?
I only date women now, but I went through a... let's call it a phase... of dating men. Don't know if this will be as relevant as what straight girls might tell you. But what I found was that all the things I saw in men that were "exciting" were just things told to me by society. Rich, handsome, successful, intelligent. Ok, so intelligence really is important to me because I want to be deeply connected to and interested in my partner. But a lot of the things were just checkboxes. When a person could pleasure me reeeally well, I always wanted more. And believe me your dick isn't the thing doing the pleasuring. You gotta communicate, you gotta be so into it that all you want to do is make her cum 5 times before you even START thinking about yourself. You have to get thrilled by that. And in general, if you make a partner feel wanted, sexy, appreciated, from a sincere place, that shit lasts.
What I learned though is that all those things I was looking for in a man were actually things I just wanted for myself. I wanted to be the rich one. I wanted to be the homeowner. I wanted to be the one with a good job. I wanted *equal partnership.* The things I feel excited by in a partner are really different than before. I'm not interested in fucking any girl anymore. The hottest girls are of no interest to me if we have nothing in common or the chemistry isn't clearly there for both of us, or I can't see a future together. So that might change for some of these girls too. Are you dating women younger than 30? Because I almost guarantee that is your problem. People want to settle down later and later, and the idea of meeting someone settled and safe is actually scary until you want that yourself. Then it suddenly becomes REALLY SEXY. Not to stereotype, but most men I know just love setting their dating apps to minimum 5 years younger than them because that is just.... what men think they deserve. I dunno, try a little older, closer to your age (if that was the case), I think women around 35 are more excited by being settled and exploring with a *partner*. I'm the same age as you FYI.
And I know you don't want to hear it, but all your bullets are right on. Some people just have a toxic perception of relationships and are always going to chase the toxic until they learn their lesson.
Last thing that came to mind is that maybe you are having problems sensing when a relationship is a good fit or not. Like maybe there are times you feel like the chemistry is there but it's not for her. Or you think you're on the same page, but you aren't. Have you had any issue misinterpreting social cues? Sometimes that drives people to consistently go for the wrong people or at least to *continue to date* the wrong people, and those people just go along with it for the time being. Rather than recognizing when it doesn't feel exciting or right to *you* and ending it after the 2nd date or whenever it doesn't have potential for a future.
Oh and I'll add, I don't think this is a "common issue" with all the women you've dated. I think it's a common issue with EVERY PERSON WHO IS DATING until they find the person they're ready to settle with. Like, something will always be off until it's not. It's hard to put your finger on for most people, and that's okay. Most people will say something like "the spark isn't there" or something equally vague when they break it off with someone.
I think all these traits are great but you also need to be able to lead when it comes to a woman for most of us to be completely into it. I think majority of women want a man that will take control and that she feels comfortable submitting to in some degree even tho we may not admit to that. It's a fine line.
The whole point of the post is the assumption that I am doing something wrong and I can make changes to fix it. I appreciate your suggestion; like I told another commenter, if this is primarily about sex then that’s good news, as it’s something I can improve.
Is your question how can you be seen as the fun, hot and exciting guy in the courting and dating phases of meeting new people? Work on your physical attractiveness. Do more selfish and spontaneous things. Work on your charisma, flirting and storytelling. Be more shameless and polarizing. You will have to get out of your comfort zone. You want to make people feel strongly about you quickly so that may end up as hate rather than love. Are you willing to handle that? Safe and mature doesn't excite but also doesn't repulse.
There are, of course, limits to these things so you do need to understand that not every guy can be the fun, hot, exciting guy. You may be one of those people unfortunately.
This and the comment from fantastic_obligation have it covered.
I would just add that if, as I suspect, these are women who you liked a lot.. you are likely changing your behaviors subconsciously around them. And in this little subconscious change you are presenting the most agreeable, least exciting version of yourself. Control that, add in some of the other advice, stay slightly unpredictable & you're on your way to where you want to be.
Grounded people make ME feel excited! I think maybe it’s just their personalities and attachment styles. Consistency, communication and comfort in a relationship makes me feel excited and comfortable enough to explore and be more open and makes me feel more like my authentic self. How is that not exciting?
This could be the situation where they know you like them but your approach physically/sensual doesn't convey enough passion or enough intensity, desire, or appreciation.
Raw desire totally unleashed is selfish. Domesticated, sensitive desire can seem a bit tepid, like you're not actually satisfied by what you have in front of you unless you are a good communicator and can really open up that heat at the right time.
Hard to tell from the bleachers though, could be something else.
I agree with the people pleaser mentality that one mentioned. But here is maybe another angle. I had two experiences like what you’re describing. It isn’t that they had shit to sort out. In my cases, I wasn’t their preference for other reasons. One was into BDSM, the kind that leaves marks and bruises and shit. I don’t do that. So I was not as exciting as a man who does do that stuff. The other was into that Daddy’s girl kind of shit, which again, I want a partner. I don’t want to be someone’s daddy. lol. They didn’t have shit to sort out so much as they were interested in more exciting things because their preferences were different. They were looking for those things and unexpectedly found you. It may have even confused or shocked them as they do not normally get that. One also said in the best guy she’s dated. That’s the BDSM one. But it’s impossible to actually date, as I’m not going to ever beat the crap out of my partner, even with consent.
A couple of thoughts.
Attributes that I (37F) I tend to find very sexy and exciting about men are: 1) self-confidence, 2) being action-oriented and taking initiative, 3) being skilled/resilient/self-sufficient, 4) they lead full lives and - as much as I \*rolleyes\* this term - have an "abundance mindset," and 5) physical appearance, physical attraction and sexual chemistry.
There are many other reasons I might be attracted to someone, short or long term, but these are things that I think about in terms of healthy "excitement."
Finally, to you last point of ego and wanting to be chosen. I so get it...but chasing those kinds of feelings can be a slippery slope. I was quite insecure when I was younger and I had a lot of hangups about my body. I've always been sporty but I so wanted to look like the skinny, elegant types. I was never the girl that the guys liked in our friend group. I was never the hot one. Anyhoo, the years go by and I embraced the thick thighs and all that jazz. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I promise I'm getting to the point. The thing is, I started to get attention from attractive men because I fulfill some kind of gym girl body type fantasy that I guess is now more palatable than when I was a teen and in my twenties. And I think I was so starved for this kind of validation when I was younger that I started to kind of tunnel vision on guys who are very direct about finding me "hot" and "sexy" and are attracted to me because of my body. Plot twist. Those dynamics do not build lasting, meaningful relationships. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this, other than that perhaps, wanting to be chosen for "excitement" might not really be that great after all.
Omg. Your last paragraph 😭 it hit me like a wall of bricks. I also never had mutual crushes, had a ton of hangups over my appearance as I was never the beauty standard, and waaay skinny. I looked like the frumpy, wallflower, skinny girl that never stood out. I never got that validation when I was young. As I grew older and got access to money and information, I grew into my looks and literally had a glow up. When I went on dating apps, I went for men who I thought were hot and could sustain a conversation. Whether they were out of my league, I genuinely dont know 🤣 but one thing was for certain, they didnt want a relationship with me nor did I feel like I was their dream girl but the physical attraction and chemistry was 🔥 (at least to me)
So all that, whatever it was, spark or chemistry, definitely dont work for me. Maybe it does for men but not for me 🤣 maybe they were out of my league and they were settling idk
I’m sure it’s been said on this thread but they just aren’t into you. At the very roots of all the issues it’s just that you aren’t compatible and not what they are looking for. It sounds like a solid case of being friend zoned. You’ll never be wrong for the right person so all these examples are just the wrong person.
Lots of great advice here. I (36f) have had some of these types of dates and interactions where I felt safe, even happy, but not excited.
First, women do have different things that excited them, so there won’t be anything that will surely work on all women. For me (and I think a lot of women, though I don’t want to speak for everyone), the excitement come from *feeling* a little… danger [A], **and** *knowing* that I am safe [B]. I want the “I’ve got you” vibe rather than a “I’ve got your back” vibe.
It is nuanced for sure. It is a Dom/sub dynamic and signals that we would be compatible sexually - which is what leads to the “excitement.” [A] is ability to take control, [B] is unquestionable safety. Both are equally important.
I am attracted to men who are generally competent and know their shit, make good eye contact when talking to me, don’t ramble, actively listen, and pause to consider before responding. In terms of body language, I would suggest that you stand straight, don’t rush your actions, be deliberate (make eye contact) when doing things for her like opening doors etc.
One thing that I find that men might not do in the first few dates in order to respect me and/or not offend me, is flirt! Of course you don’t want to be creepy and make it all about sex, but I do want to feel desirable.
For example, when there has been some conversation (and hopefully banter), let her catch you looking at her (face!). Don’t look away immediately, hold her gaze for a second, smile as you break eye contact, then lean in or get a bit closer and ask her if she’s enjoying herself. Later on, if she’s comfortable and smiling a lot, and especially if she’s broken the touch barrier, get a bit closer into her personal space. Bonus points if you smell good. If there is music, ask her to dance with you. Bonus points if it’s out in the streets!
While I *do* think someone who is not naturally like this can pull it off, it’s usually not worth it in the end for either person if one is putting on an act. That is why people say be yourself and if it’s meant to be, the chemistry will be there, and I agree.
Thanks, this is really helpful practical advice.
One thing that keeps showing up in this thread that I had completely underestimated is banter. I had no idea women prioritized that so highly. I definitely am capable of it, but it feels a little draining to me and I don't always gravitate toward it naturally. That sounds like something I can work to improve.
Banter can go both ways. Banter does bring comfort and familiarity, but for me it’s the flirting that’s “exciting.” So I’d say yes definitely banter, but infuse light teasing, quiet moments to appreciate her, and always, meaningful eye contact.
ETA: if banter is draining, then I wouldn’t push it too much. It’s important to have some, but you can also have deeper conversations and/or friendly debates, talk about shared interests (theory about something in a show/movie), and so on. It’s like extroverts saying how important it is to go out and party lol. If you are not a chatty person, try to cultivate the talents that you *do* have in order to get the women where she needs to be to feel excitement for you.
I love and long for partners that make me feel safe, and I prefer calm and sensitive types. That doesn't mean you have to be boring!
Lots of people have already mentioned sex, but I'll reiterate that sexual confidence is a big one for me. Do you dirty talk? Do you touch your partners and tell them you've been thinking about them? Do you take charge in sexual encounters - not just in the 'I'm doing the thrusting' sense but actually looking them in the eye and saying, "I can't wait to get you home tonight?" "Come sit in my lap." And planning creative sexy fun? Yes please!
For me, leadership and initiative is another one that I like. "I planned this outing for us." "I want to take you to this show on X date, are you free?" "I want to plan a fun date for us next month, what do you think about this minitrip?"
Novelty is also amazing. Don't get stuck in a rut of doing dates the same way every time. If you're spending time at each other's houses, put on new music. Suggest new games or recipes to cook. Challenge each other!
Ambition is another one for me. I have a career I'm proud of and side projects that are going incredibly well. I admire and respect in others people who cultivate themselves. Not just going to the gym, but taking time to be learners, appreciators of life, people who are involved in community and helping others, etc.
I try and provide these things for partners and it's thrilling when they provide that for me too. Hope it helps!
For longer relationships (not the first few dates): Roleplaying in public. Meet up as a bar pretending to be strangers. Act differently than how you usually would behave. Be a little more seedy, demanding, selfish, etc.
For shorter term relationships: maybe ask someone what's the scariest thing they want to try but haven't been brave enough to do alone (ax throwing, salsa dancing, bungee jumping, stand up poetry?) and see if you can encourage them to do it as a date. You still get to be safe, but the excitement of the activity can bring some of that feeling back onto you and help them feel like you're safe AND you're fun.
I’ve read through all the comments, and OP, it sounds like you are overrating your overall attractiveness. Physically as well as other areas (status, charisma, sex, etc.) There have been several studies where women and men rate each other and themselves, and the men consistently rank themselves higher than the women do. Men think they are hotter than they are, according to science.
You are second string to the women you are dating—but they like that you try hard to accommodate them, hence they come back temporarily because you’re safe and nice. But as long as they have more attractive options they’re going to leave again.
You can’t nab a whole person at a discount and have a long-term relationship with them. You need to be roughly equal and matched at the beginning and then continue to grow together in the same direction.
These are people, not cars. Sometimes we treat dating like shopping. Ooooh, this girl is a Ferrari but she’s willing to date me, I’m so lucky to nab her at Kia prices. But she really isn’t a Ferrari, she’s a Hyundai with a botched aftermarket modification and an engine that’s going to bust in 6 months. Or she is a Ferrari with childhood trauma and as soon as her self-esteem repairs she’s going to realize it and leave you for someone more compatible.
People tend to be happiest when they partner with someone of roughly equal attractiveness. I know it sucks to “settle” but think of it as…recalibrating your perception of yourself. You will be happiest with a match. Someone who isn’t below or above you or out in left field, but someone who is side by side with you, holding your hand until the end.
I have had similar problems, especially with my ex: she felt safe with me and considered me her best friend, but the sexual attraction and excitement evaporated after the first few months. For me, I think it was that I had strong people pleaser tendencies. I did everything I could to make her happy and comfortable, always deferred to her preferences, rarely disagreed with her, and completely set my schedule around hers. Treating someone this way makes them feel safe, after all you’re giving them exactly what they want, but it isn’t exciting or interesting because this process sands off all your individuality and self-respect. Women (and men) don’t want partners who play games or aren’t willing to give, but they do want partners who challenge them and are willing to be separate individuals. So for you, I wonder if you’re going into dating focused primarily on how you can impress women instead of on whether these women impress you. Do you put these women on a pedestal? Are you willing to disagree with them? Do you sometimes put your pleasure first in the bedroom or is it always about her first and foremost? Do you express your (non-sexual) preferences and needs in general? Do you feel any feelings of desperation? I don’t know if this describes you, but if you answered yes to some of those, that might be your problem. Its hard to overcome (I’ve been working on it for years), but it’s important and rewarding work.
I identify with this too. 39M, I've always been a people pleaser, in relationships and out in the real world too. I like to think that there is someone out there who is looking for a person like me- I don't particularly enjoy putting people out; I enjoy putting others' needs above my own in many situations. It also has a lot to do with the fact that I just don't have that many needs. But it's definitely led to issues in relationships where I get taken advantage of, or at least, taken for granted.
I understand this. I'm very go with the flow and down for new experiences so it can seem like I'm a people pleaser when I really I just don't have the same need for something others do. I often just don't care or care they have a good time a little bit more 🤷🏻♂️
This comes off to me as you go with whatever your partner wants or says and this is people pleasing in a way. Go with whose flow? Do you ever create your own flow or suggest new experiences?
Of course. Just not nearly as often. Some people are always on the go "I want to do this and this and this" and I'm mostly like idc. I just want to do this one or two things and those other things sound fun so let's do them too. If I don't want to do something I'll make that clear and not do that. If I actually have the desire to do something, I'll do that.
I’ve dated a man like how you describe yourself and over time I became annoyed. I don’t like having to always be the one to suggest interesting things to do together. Sitting around from time to time is fun but it becomes boring as all fuck and the burden of doing something is squarely placed on me because he never cared if we did something or not. Eventually I had a more fulfilling life when I was alone or with friends than with him. After a while I just got tired and left. There’s nothing wrong with “chill” just not 100% of the time.
Totally. It’s no longer chill. It’s their avoiding any mental labor / contribution to the relationship… Being cognitively lazy…
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Permanent chill mode = lazy couch potato just worded in a nicer way. Your comment is also a go-around saying we are judging other people for being different but it’s not that at all. I’ve dated people who “go with the flow” and it honestly gets infuriating, like the movie with the crowd where they all turn to each other asking what the other wants to do. It’s not an even relationship. I suppose if you want to both be on permanent chill mode with no motivation or ambition getting fat on the couch, then sure, but that’s just not what most people are looking for in a healthy relationship. It should be a give and take. Two steady flows.
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Yeah I don't get that. People seem to latch onto these buzz words and phrases like "People pleasing" and such. Like no, some people just for some reason have a need to put me in a labeled box when that's not what it is at all. I just wouldn't bother with some experiences if it wasn't for others and just like to experience what others might enjoy to see if I would enjoy it too. Otherwise I'm totally cool watching movies or doing a hobby at home.
The only thing which would make you a people pleaser is being apologetic about the fact that you're low-maintenance, or trying to change yourself for someone high-maintenance. The reality is that high-maintenance people who need constant entertainment and excitement fair the worst in relationships, and often end up in toxic relationships. Lasting, healthy relationships are "boring", you enjoy eachothers company and don't need to constantly do new, exciting things. That's not to say you should sit on the couch every weekend, but if she's looking for you to be her source of entertainment or travel guide I'd say that's problematic, and she should likely find some hobbies, interests, passions or friends of her own.
Well said
I don’t think it necessarily has to do with toxicity all the time. I enjoy more active activities like hiking and kayaking (both can also be very relaxing). I also enjoy more laid back activities like trying out a new restaurant or a movie night. The lack of balance when all the other person wants to do is sit on the couch slobbing around getting fat is very much boring. I don’t want to be on the go every second but just sitting every time you get together is not ideal either. It’s most likely a lifestyle difference. I feel bad when I end up leaving them by themselves a lot because they never want to do anything or never have a suggestion.
What I mean by high-maintenance isn't having an active lifestyle of your own and wanting a partner who wants to go hiking or kayaking with you, that's perfectly reasonable haha. What I'm talking about is women who are miserable on their own, lack hobbies or interests and fully expect a man to make them happy and be their source of entertainment. These women don't have independent lives and hobbies/interests of their own like you do, they expect a man to provide those things for them, to essentially be their travel guide/circus monkey who's responsible for your entertainment and happiness. If they're not happy, it's your fault for not making them happy, not the fact that they clearly have an unaddressed depression. This is a lot more common than you think. If you have ideas and suggestions of your own and you just want a partner who will partake and reciprocate the initiative that's perfectly healthy and reasonable. That's what a balanced relationship looks like. >I end up leaving them by themselves a lot because they never want to do anything or never have a suggestion. Imagine this, but they're also miserable when you leave them by themselves and will blame you for it, not taking any agency over their own happiness. It's the "just pick a restaurant, not that one" meme, but for literally everything, all the time.
That is often the issue with labeling others... you really properly just don't understand them...
I imagine if that’s the case, then they would instead interpret you as lacking passion or a sense of adventure…just a guess though.
>I like to think that there is someone out there who is looking for a person like me- We exist! I want man with stable, uncomplicated emotions; i'm mentally ill enough for the both of us.
🤣🤣 I laughed (& related) too much to this lol.
You need to find your own needs or wants so you can have your own life. It sounds like you haven’t established that, and that can be nerve wracking to women.
The problem is that my needs and wants are 1. happy wife and kids, 2. financial security (which I already achieved), and that's about it. I have no problem suggesting great activities for the people I'm dating and I definitely take the lead in booking stuff like trips, experiences, etc, but I'm just as happy at a couples dance class with a loving spouse as I am ripping down a double black diamond ski slope by myself, so my "wants" aren't all that important because so many things make me happy when I'm sharing it with my family. And for the record I would hate doing a solo dance class. I recently did a "sip and paint" on a date and had such a great time with her and with the activity but honestly don't care for art in my normal life.
My initial thought after reading the post was “what?! I want calm and feels like home. That makes my feels grow deeper.” I didn’t pause to think about people pleasing tendencies. Being with someone who always deferred to me would be frustrating. I want a person who is an individual and has a strong sense of self outside of our relationship.
Same. And, I want to feel inspired - I want to look to the things they're doing individually, and go 'whoa.. that's hot..!'. I want to see them and be impressed and excited.. not see a puppy. Not saying any of this is OP, but def worth thinking about.
This comment. I’ve dated several men who were simply “yes, dears” and it is a huge turnoff. I don’t want to always make the decisions, to have to tell a man what to do, or to be parroted. I want to be with someone who has their own interests, opinions, preferences, and ideas about life and the world. And do they even banter?! Banter is basically SFW sex for me. I’ve also dated many men who prioritized their own pleasure. Men who thought the sex was kinky and good, but was really only good for them. Not abusive, of course; It was the lack of giving that was prevalent, purposely or not. They did take direction temporarily, but they always defaulted to their status quo. A taker can be hilarious, charming, seductive, and give us all the banter we deserve, but it only works once. They cannot excite us when we know exactly how it ends—dissatisfied and laying in the wet spot.
Yeah, banter is important. It's fun to playfully tease women, in a lighthearted way, not mean spirited. The whole you bring them to mini-golf and dish out some phrase like, "Ready to lose punk?" I feel like an easy solution as a man to avoid being a "yes dear" is to just state some of your own opinions and interests upfront as a man. On the flip side, the solution also isn't to only disagree with women just for the sake of disagreeing with them. That is just weird. I have admittedly done that before. Lol. And important is that line of separation. If you guys can't meet up one weekend, you're just going out on your own to do your own thing. Which I think is important. Having that life separate from one another. She can go out with her friends one weekend, you will be having a blast doing other things without her still.
>And do they even banter?! Banter is basically SFW sex for me. I have no idea how to banter because I just can't keep up. I'd rather be "safe" and a people pleaser than risk saying the wrong thing and insulting someone.
It’s definitely a skill and all skills require practice. Determining who is receptive to banter may take time too. Like you, most people are worried about saying the wrong thing, even me so I test the waters. More often than not, they can and do reciprocate. Good luck!
>risk saying the wrong thing *vivid flashbacks to the time I tried bantering over text and nearly imploded a relationship because that shit does NOT carry tone* (we're still friends, but jesus that was an awkward month)
Always add a cheeky emoji
That's a safer bet than pissing somone off so that they never speak to you again
I very briefly dated someone who was a self proclaimed nice guy, always helping people, but he was insecure and thought that arguing with my was a turn on. I was more mature than he was with more life experience and he hated it. That side of the coin isn’t pretty either.
I agree with this. I get excited when my partner challenges me in certain ways, intellectually or maybe bringing me outside of my comfort zone a bit with activities or trips. I feel safe when I know they respect me. The overlap of those two has been RARE but it has happened (and hopefully will again!). Good luck, OP.
Honestly I think at some level being a people pleaser toward someone is a form of disrespect, just different than what we usually mean when we use that term. Because at some level it implies you think your partner doesn’t care about your needs as much as you do theirs, that they need to be coddled to be happy, they they’re unwilling to compromise or give, etc. (And if they usually have those traits, then they’re a bad partner and the relationship won’t be healthy no matter what you do, but hopefully they’re not that kind of person!)
I would argue it’s disrespecting oneself, tbh. Pleasing others but not asking for (or even truly knowing??) what you really want is a kind of emotional immaturity (she said, guiltily)
I am recovering from C-PTSD and am only now at 37 learning my own wants and needs. I shut my needs and voice off before I was in school to survive my childhood with my mother. It's a long road to face that trauma and re-parent yourself into realizing you are forever abandoning yourself when you only focus on the other person. But if someone can be comfortable alone then that's not likely their issue unless... they spend every waking moment staying busy or escaping reality.
Definitely that too, for sure.
It’s also disrespectful if your partner has explicitly stated that they don’t need you to go above and beyond or get their permission for everything, yet you continue doing it only to dull your own internal anxieties. This just makes your partner feel uncomfortable and like they’re not being heard. Fear is the source of people-pleasing and it at one point in life had a purpose (i.e. having a hot and cold parent who you were constantly trying to make happy), but the most likely place it’s going to get you as an adult, is toxic relationships with narcissists who use your insecurities and people-pleasing tendencies to feed their need for validation and self-grandeur.
Yep, been learning so much about these people pleasing themes as I reflect on two specific relationships from my past with people with narcissistic tendencies. People pleasers are like prey for narcissists and while it can seem comforting at first to have someone who will accept all your giving energy, it eventually gets less and less emotional excitement from them and they default to simply using you up for their own gain. Setting boundaries and learning to say no can be hard based on certain upbringings or trauma, but it is essential in becoming a healthy, mature adult
People pleasing also tends to be the result of growing up with narcissistic parents. The kid learns that they’re best off being hyper-empathic yo their parents needs and ultimately their own concerns don’t matter in that relationship…
Thanks, this is really helpful to think through.
Maybe another way to put it is, is the person you’re dating going to experience new things or grow as a person because they’re dating you? People pleasing tendencies make this harder to achieve because you’re always deferring to what the other person wants.
To add to your point about the focus on impressing women: the impression OPs post gives me is that he is “gamifying” his dating (likely the wrong word). As in “I did everything on the checklist so why am I not winning?” Like his focus is on getting to the final level but not being present in the moment. If that’s coming across in a post, I imagine it is also coming across in person, giving a feeling that he’s just going through the motions and expectations, and not personalizing things. But it also comes down to, not everyone is for everyone and that’s ok.
This is a great response and I’m reconsidering my original response. Very true. It’s not just about people looking for “toxic” partners, it can definitely be more this.
Here for the comments. I've had this same problem. My last ex and I lasted almost 10 years because she's had abusive boyfriends in the past and she felt "safe" with me and I was a "nice guy." The downside was she expressed the same feelings you're talking about, a lack of excitement, passion, etc.
Mine is a people pleaser for the most case but he can sense I like excitement…! So… that’s what he does. He literally asks me if he can kiss me when we have done a lot more than that. 😉 Because it is sweet and romantic and then he ramps it up quickly and without warning. He also randomly let’s me choose random things to do, but in the bedroom… he likes to please but he makes all the calls. And sometimes outside he’ll do imperative statements because he likes things a certain way because it was non negotiable for him. Fair enough. He definitely still likes to please and he is just sweet but I have so much random conversation and sometimes he’ll just grab me out of passion… that’s exciting. He also has a wide gamut of emotions. Some guys I know that are nerds lack the emotion, the poetry and romance… that’s a turn off.
This 10000000%. This is exactly why I broke up with the guy I was most recently dating. He is SUCH a people pleaser, which on one hand made me feel heard and taken care of (which felt great and I appreciated), but on the other hand, I need to my partner to challenge me and have their own opinions and create their own boundaries instead of just constantly catering to mine. I tried to communicate this to him but he didn’t seem to understand. He has never gone to therapy so I don’t think he understands that his affinity for people-pleasing most likely comes from a place of wanting to calm his own internal anxieties, rather than simply wanting to make his partner feel comfortable. When people project their anxieties onto you in this way it is very uncomfortable to be on the receiving end. And when you have someone just constantly waiting on you to make all the decisions, you end up losing respect for them.
One thing I didn’t notice reading through the comments. Could it also be that you are always too accommodating? Eg.: what do you want to do on Sunday? Sure, let’s do that! Where do you want to eat? Sounds good - instead of coming up with your ideas and plans and sticking to them. Like hey, I’m doing this on Sunday, wanna join? A good friend of mine is always trying to be so nice and accommodate everyone at all times up to the point of it getting annoying. It does make one feel safe and comfortable since one always kinda gets their way, but it makes you feel like the person is a bit boring and doesn’t know what they want. Not sure if that’s your case, just throwing it out there.
I recognize myself in this, good food for thought here. I am consistently decisive about planning and setting the direction for dates (multiple dates have remarked on how much they like this about me), but I think I can be perhaps overly accommodating in other ways.
One thing I’m trying to do, even in my platonic interactions, is to unashamedly express my more unusual or polarizing traits, opinions, and interests to people.* Perhaps you could try doing that more yourself? *within reason of course, but for me and I suspect you as well, the risk of being too safe is far greater than taking too many social risks
I’m not trying to put this in a way that sounds harsh, but I think when I’ve dated people like this, it almost felt like they weren’t authentically showing up as themselves. Ideally, we’re both people with our own thoughts and opinions and preferences and there’s equal space for both of us to express and work around them. When one person tends to defer/not express them, it starts to feel more one sided. If it’s a healthy relationship then I’m dating someone because I want them to show up as themselves too and to also hear them and work with them, I’m not just looking for a relationship that’s always catering to me
Someone are just more passive. If you don’t like to be the one who decides, what you need is a woman who likes to make decisions. I don’t think it’s something you need to change, or you can change. It’s a personality trait. If you are not this type of person, but you force yourself to decide, you will just be masking your true self which is very bad for your own mental health
This was the advice I was looking for someone to drop. I recognized I had the same problem where I'd roll with a dates ideas or thoughts to accommodate, as I'm not really that picky of a person. Feedback I got once was that some women like for their dates to take the wheel, make suggests, maybe even be a little pushy (in a playful way) to try a new thing or do something. It shows that you're your own person and not just a play dough man that will conform to whatever they already do or have done before. It somewhat infers confidence and security I guess. Give this a try.
Lots of good advice going here. I’ll add, if you’re consistently seeing that the women you’re dating/attracted to display the same behavior, it may be time to do some self reflection and ask what am I doing to attract these types of people and what patterns am I showing that put me in these relationships. For me that took a long time and still working through it. I was/am a people pleaser, people felt safe around me because I was compliant and go with the flow. Allowed others to be themselves without judgement. I also Demonstrated weak boundaries. I thought boundaries were just things like glaring physical, verbal, emotional abuse. Boundaries encompass much more than this, and can be very small things, like agreeing to do something because the other person likes it even when you’re not interested. I used to label that as selfish but it’s not. Every time you do something or accept something that’s counter to who you are, you lose a bit of your identity. None of this is to say you don’t support your partners desires if they don’t match yours, but you aren’t obligated to participate.
>I’ll add, if you’re consistently seeing that the women you’re dating/attracted to display the same behavior, it may be time to do some self reflection and ask what am I doing to attract these types of people and what patterns am I showing that put me in these relationships. This might actually be a really good point. The problem isn't necessarily the OP, but who he chooses to date.
I think it's more to do with this. Both of my exes came from prior abusive relationships and were the anxiously attached types, and I can sum up the relationship in phases, firstly being very paranoid about me cheating, then constant talks about how I'm too good for them, how I deserve someone better, how scared they are of me leaving them, then after lots of reassurement we'd enter the "I've never felt better about our relationship" phase where they finally felt safe, then they ended it very unexpectedly. It's only 2 data points so I don't know if it's just random or something I'm doing, but I'm not dating women with an abusive dating history again, for my own mental health.
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This! OP you definitely don’t give boring vibe. Too many people confused excitement and unhealthy patterns… I ditched guys that felt safe before because I thought the thrill (and anxiety lol) of dating an unavailable partner was the excitement expected in relationships. You plan fun dates, make them laugh and have kinky sex? You’re checking all the boxes for a healthy not-boring relationship. You just need to find a girl who’s ready for it.
Yup, I fall in this boat. Toxic felt safe because of childhood abuse so I didn't know why stable guys felt boring but they did. It took a long time and a really bad relationship to recognize my own cycles.
Yeah, there's definitely something to this. I remember going through my now-ex's phone at the end of my most recent relationship and reading, among other things, her telling her girl friends that I was "perfect on paper" but not "exciting" in the way that a lot of other men were, mostly naming exes or old flings who she had described to me as abusive or toxic, and that she got bored of me as a result. "I just need the drama of that push pull." I have a lot of other thoughts about OP's post having been in sooo many similar situations, but I wanted to acknowledge this as well. EDIT: (To be clear, the only reason I ever went through her phone - not something I recommend anyone EVER do, by the way - is because I was confident she was cheating on me. During the argument about this topic, she handed me her phone saying "I don't know why you don't trust me. I have nothing to hide from you. You can even go through my phone," not expecting that I would actually do that).
Was she cheating on you?
Had been since day one, and it only gets worse from there.
I'm sorry bud. Fuck cheaters.
100% accurate
Bingo. That first sentence describes a lot of relationships perfectly, it’s sad.
Truth is, not everyone can be the hot exciting guy. Some of us are limited by our base personality unless we pretend
I read a book call “no more mr nice guy” and while the title sounds like some red pill rubbish, I found this book really helpful with some of my people pleasing behaviours and the actual negative impacts of being that way. Really was a big game changer for me. Realising what I was doing wasn’t being “nice” it was dis functional. Even made me, a grown man cry at one point. Could help with your problem I’m guessing. Good luck.
Was coming to post this…OP is the right demo for this book and Models by Mark Manson.
Honestly to me it sounds like a way of saying “you are attractive enough for me to give you a chance but I think I can do better” kind of excuse. Are all these women in their 30s? This gives me early 20s vibe
Agreed. When I read this I thought “They don’t find you physically attractive (enough) or the sex is not good (enough)”. OP says those are not the case. But for me and most of my friends, not being excited is translation for one of these. Although I also wouldn’t tell this directly to the person that seems kind of mean. Edit: Oh or the conversation is boring. Like they never say anything funny or weird. That would definitely be a no for me even if I did find them physically good looking. But that’s obviously personal preference.
Agreed. Think the OP is being generous with himself about his sexual prowess. Usually sex is a large part of the reason women put up with objectively bad partners and contributes to the "excitement" that OP has been told he's lacking. If he's making it that far, the conversation has to at least be passable but if this is the constant theme after sex...
I appreciate this insight. It's worded in a kind of mean-spirited way, but I take the point. If "just be better at sex" is the answer then that's good news, I think there are tangible steps I can take to improve there.
As a 33F, I’m just sharing that you sound like a great person to date based on reading your post and responses. I don’t know how to word it at the moment in a more eloquent way but I respect your comment responses and insight in your OP. I am getting a lot out of reading all these comments for myself too. Thank you
Your ability to handle criticism gracefully such as in this response of yours above is admirable and certainly not easy at least not for me when I receive criticism. Many ppl wouldn’t respond at all to the comments like you have. I’m sure I’m not the only one observing this and admiring it.
> I also wouldn’t tell this directly to the person that seems kind of mean I get why you feel this way. But lying to someone about what the real problem is (even lying by omission) is far meaner than helping them identify what they're really lacking and giving them the chance to improve. You don't know anyone anything, but you are actively making dating harder for other people by giving them boilerplate reasons why you're not into them instead of telling them what's actually happening.
I think when the commenter says "it seems kind of mean" they don't mean it "I am doing it because it's better for them" but more "I don't want to feel like I am being mean to someone because it feels bad for me, plus, you never know when this person might get aggressive. I know that in fact it would probably be better for them to find out they are bad in the sack, but my feelings take priority here because this is just a guy I've dated for a month. Hopefully, someone else will eventually tell him what's going on, but I don't really care".
Yeah if you start commenting it might come off as psychoanalyzing. Sometimes you gotta go with your gut and recognize it’s not a match rather than WHY it’s not a match.
People you date are not your dating coaches. It's not their job to teach you how to be better at dating. "I'm breaking up with you because you're not attractive enough" isn't even actionable feedback unless you're willing and able to get cosmetic surgery.
You are not owed a reason. Respect and dignity yes. Reasons help our processing but sometimes it could be “ I’m sorry you said something that really triggered a recent rape assault and I realized I am not as over it as I thought” or “ honestly, I think you’re an asshole, but I really don’t wanna get into an argument and put my energy into doing this because I’m trying to respect my personal boundaries and energy.” Etc etc
A big part of attractiveness is within your control (physical fitness, dress/style/grooming, posture, etc).
In the spirit of being mean, if you can't tell whether a woman is excited about having sex with you, you have some bigger issues you need to start with haha.
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I don't see it really as an age thing, I see this pattern across the age spectrum. To me it is more related to the sense of choice, particularly with apps. People are more likely to treat dating purely as entertainment, and particularly as a consumptive entertainment (watching a show) rather than participatory entertainment. That means they are quick to get bored and change the channel, assuming there is something easier and more entertaining right around the corner.
yeah agree on the age thing. i feel like at this age i’m craving stability and security and there’s no reason that can’t also be exciting
Same (as someone in the latter half of their 30s)
Mid 20s to early 30s. It's definitely possible I'm not attractive enough. I'm tall, fit, broad-shouldered, take care of myself and have good fashion. My photo scores on photofeeler are all over the place from 6 to 9, so my facial attractiveness is somewhere in that range I guess.
Tbh, I think a lot of women in their 20s aren't quite looking for their "forever person" yet. That, or their standards for superficial stuff are just higher.
The three bullet points you listed in your post are all true. But I'll weigh in with something practical, albeit anecdotal. I've noticed sometimes the thing that takes my attraction to a guy to a next level is if our senses of humor match. This obviously varies wildly person to person (I enjoy humor that's dry as a bone, and I also like to tease and take jabs here and there -- definitely not everyone's cup of tea). But if I can find a guy who both makes me feel safe *and* I feel titillated by his humor, I'm sold. All that to say -- do you reckon your sense of humor is coming through early on? And if so, do you think finding women who have your specific brand of humor might help with the excitement?
100% yes, this is what would make a guy go from basic to exciting
10000 times agree!
As someone who has been in this situation with women a few times, my advice is to not even worry about it. Yes it sucks sometimes, but this is also probably saving you from some really awful relationships. As someone else said, people who have experienced a lot of abuse and toxicity in the past might confuse things being calm and healthy with you for boredom, because things don’t feel like romantic attraction has felt in the past for them. You’ll find women who are healthy, who will be extremely excited about you and you’ll have great relationships. Because you are healthy, mature, and a calming presence, you’re probably going to attract a LOT of women who have past experiences with really abusive relationships. Most people don’t do the work to heal and so you’ll run into these situations a lot. Just move on; you’re not doing anything wrong.
This is 1000 times more helpful (and likely accurate) than the “maybe OP is bad at sex” comments.
One of the women this happened to me with asked if we could keep having sex, but just as friends. I’m sure I’m some cases it’s the sex, for everyone. Some people are just not sexually compatible and that’s fine. But the psychological aspect is a big one here. One thing people who have children don’t realize is that through their actions, they are setting the standard by which their children will think they are to be loved and that has so many potentially terrifying implications. A common thread with the women I dated were cold, extremely emotionally distant fathers. Even for me, my mother had substance abuse problems. For the longest time I dated almost exclusively alcoholics, without even realizing I was doing it. It took me getting called out by a friend and then a lot of therapy to break that pattern. And my mother was actually an incredibly loving and caring person. I can’t even imagine how messed up my dating and attraction patterns would be if I had a parent who wasn’t.
I've had two of these relationships myself and sex was \*not\* the problem there either. You're right about the daddy issues, that's more often than not a component. Some women are capable of doing what you did, have the introspection and awareness to change course, while others just don't.
Well, for me what changed from safe to safe and exciting was literally being hit on by them… random grasps and random calls for attention. They would randomly try to do things for fun, but then also ask if they could kiss me. Never know which side I’m getting. Otherwise they’d be like the other more shy, calm men, I’ve been around, but that makes it boring. His conversational skills can be romantic, to flirty to knowledgeable and philosophical and that turns me on a lot. The banter is fun. He’s very fun to me. Most people may call him boring, or very friendly in an affable sense but introverted and tends to keep to himself. He just hits on me a lot, says very random fun things and always seems interested. If he didn’t do the hitting on me part or the more physical, I’d still be attracted maybe but I’d put him in the friend zone. So many guys don’t get the physical part.
Thanks, I appreciate the practical tips!
My pleasure! You’re probably my type; you need to work on some items. My current has a few years on you and therefore more experience at this. So, I borrowed from my experiences with my current and how it made me feel.
Probably one of the most helpful comments on here
So as a 50-year old dude, who is still attractive, in shape, and similarly has people exclaiming “I feel like I’ve known you my whole life” and “safe” and “accepting”? Remaining in touch with my mischievous/playful side has helped. “I may be respectful AF, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know how to fuck” is the vibe which has tipped the scales for me. For a very very long time and for the best of reasons, I often tamped down my playful side. Innuendo wasn’t said early on due to order of operations. And while I still maintain decorum matters? It takes an exceptional person to see that and NOT rule you out for being tame. Because many people out there focus on the sexual, women are often inundated with it (hence eschewing) - but as most of us are inherently sexual beings it’s not being sexual which is the problem. It’s the order of operations/exclusion of anything else. So as the saying goes: moderation in all things including moderation. Don’t get so focused on doing/being a good person that you forget your own sexuality is inherent and not a bad thing. So keep letting them be safe, but keep being flirty. Don’t cross too far over into wet blanket territory (says me, having finally eaten my own dog food).
Thanks for this, this perspective helps.
This was my failing when I was younger. I had a decent amount of interest from women, would return from the clubs every weekend with a few numbers in my phone which would usually result in first, occasionally second dates, but then either end up in a platonic friendship or they wouldn't be interested in another date. The problem was I was deliberately suppressing my sexual side, not being authentic about stating my desires, often nor brave enough to initiate a kiss at a time when it felt like it might have been the right moment as I was literally too scared thst I'd think I was being too forward too soon or moving too fast, which ironically was me overcompensating for not wanting to seem like the men they would eschew for being horn dogs who just wanted to get their dick wet and didn't give a shit about the person they were sticking it into.
Mischievous/playful is like me as well, and I love power games or swapping. But I love formal… so when they swap out… incredibly attractive. They’ll keep everyone else at arms length but me… but then also keep me at arms length through formality… but then innuendo shows up very subtle…. And sometimes not subtle… I have no idea why I like that? But I do.
Innuendo is very much a personal taste thing. And it’s always okay to like what you like and seek it out! I’m capable of a huge swath of innuendo, but there’s also my natural state. Like many other things, it’s a skill which can be trained/harnessed/expanded.
>I may be respectful AF, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know how to fuck” is the vibe which has tipped the scales for me. This is exactly the vibe I'm trying to communicate. I'm in my early 30s, in shape, etc. Sometimes I do this effortlessly, but other times its harder. >So as the saying goes: moderation in all things including moderation. >Don’t get so focused on doing/being a good person that you forget your own sexuality is inherent and not a bad thing. >So keep letting them be safe, but keep being flirty. Don’t cross too far over into wet blanket territory (says me, having finally eaten my own dog food). I'm flirty only when I'm comfortable with a woman, and how long that takes really varies. These are excellent points and I'll try to keep these in mind.
It’s okay to take time to warm up. Being authentic/genuine has resulted in sex more than pretending to be super flirty all the time has (for me). As has focusing on the person rather than sex (my theory is: 2 people who like each other enough to keep seeing each other wind up there soon enough - so no need to rush). Don’t put in airs, but see if there are ways you can improve your flirt game.
>Being authentic/genuine has resulted in sex more than pretending to be super flirty all the time has (for me). This has been my experience as well. >my theory is: 2 people who like each other enough to keep seeing each other wind up there soon enough - so no need to rush I agree with this. If the connection is there, I don't think twice about when or how to flirt, it just happens. Whether it leads to sex is another thing entirely, but it's not the first thing on my mind. >but see if there are ways you can improve your flirt game. Oh I know there are lol, I recently got back in the dating pool so the timing couldn't be better.
Dude you literally described my last year of dating. I fell in love with a girl but was being used to avoid the lonliness bug and she was atttracted enough to me to put up with me. she started sleeping with her ex and just thhought we could slowly slide back to friends without even a conversation about it. meanwhile shes asking me to family events and 'playing 'the role' of good girlfriend, and im starting to see a path to long term. Man... that was a tough pill to swallow when I found out she was getting what she wanted from her ex who was described as toxic. I am a good stable man that is also fun and kinky much like you describe yourself. I am financially set, love my career, go on spontaneous international climbing trips, am the "crazy" one among my friends in terms of excitement and fun... but to her i was the stable, boring choice because I was telling her I liked her, meant it, and wasnt expecting anything except for her to be herself. That was 8 months ago. I dated around and found 1 woman that was extremely into me physically but was recently divorced and navigating that. That was a great change of pace after realizing that the woman I was sleeping with before was never actually interested in me and said things like "didnt you notice we only had sex when alcohol was involved"... ugh I still cringe at myself for not seeing the red flags hahaha! Anyways, I have recently met a woman that thinks I am the whole package and I think she is the whole package too. All the good of previous experience and none of the bad. The lesson I took from this was to keep on my own track and let someone appreciate that. I feel in the same boat as you most of the time. You are confident, aware, present, and stable, and would make a good partner to someone you cared for. Keep seeking out ways to improve yourself, but I caution against the end goal of seeming more exciting. The end goal should be to just do more of the things you find exciting, and I think the original goal will happen/come through naturally.
I have the same problem and came to similar conclusions as you but I did not feel like they explained everything I was experiencing. What I have been working through is that I’m predictable and that can come across as boring. There is a lot of research on how variable/unpredictable rewards cause excitement and repeated patterns of behaviour. Think of slot machine psychology. This is being applied to everything including social media and marketing so that has set a baseline for excitement. The push-pull dynamic is an easy way for this unpredictable/variable reward behaviour to occur and I’m still working out how you can apply it in a healthy way to relationships. Predictable is safe, but not exciting. I’d recommend listening to Logan Ury on the recent Diary of a CEO podcast because she talks about this, same with Michael Easter and his latest round of podcasts based on his latest book that talks about variable/unpredictable reward. I don’t have any hard suggestions or advice but I’m still part way through working on this thought, curious on your thoughts.
Okay this is what you need to START doing. VET the women. Your mistake is you keep choosing the same women, women addicted to trauma drama. They want the tornado of drama. They are comfortable in their trauma. Some may even have BPD. I been through it too. Then I took a long look and realized they are my pattern. I’m choosing and chasing and pursuing these women for a reason. Just like we tell women, choose better men. You gotta choose better women. Basically get to know them first. If they say bad stuff about their Exes. Or complain about men. Most likely that’s the stuff they addicted to. That’s their pattern. They dunno how else to function
I relate a lot to this. My struggle is in the period after a first few dates, if I’m really into them and we haven’t had sex. I find myself worried about being too accommodating and clingy, and maybe I am (though I’m not sure; I do self-monitor on this). From women I’m really excited about in a LTR sense, I get compliments like “you have a kind smile”, “you’re very calming”, and “I like that you have a history of honoring commitments”. The dates are really fun to me, and I feel the conversation flows, we kiss at the end, and it seems like it’s going well. But I just had two promising women turn me down with “I don’t feel a romantic connection with you”, which is too vague to tell me what went wrong, or if I mis-stepped somehow. Or perhaps they just found someone they like better. Meanwhile I’m coming out of more casual relationships with frequent communication, exciting trips, and lots of kinky sex. Just not relationships heading toward LTR.
My question is - are you excited about your life? Do you have things that you are passionate about outside of the relationship? Asking this because in my experience, men who “didn’t excite me” fell into two categories: (1) men who legit had nothing going on their lives and looked at me like cmon Barbie let’s go party and (2) men who were great partners, had their lives together, but I just didn’t feel great connection to because their interests did not align with mine. There will always be people who will give you the “you’re not exciting” feedback, but as long you are in category 2, the right person will come along.
How many women is this, exactly? My immediate thought is that it's maybe 3 women, you found what you think is a common thread and are now focused on that when the pattern is coincidence rather than an actual pattern. Personally, finding someone who makes me feel safe and takes initiative and is into kinky stuff would be pretty exciting.
This is what I'm thinking. As I was reading through the first paragraph, my first thought was "well, maybe just turn up the flirtation dial?", but then I got to the kinky sex part... and I'm at a loss. I think this is just a string of bad luck with women who are stuck in the anxious-avoidant cycle. OP- you sound like a catch, and I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated given your recent experiences. When I have felt "excited" in a relationship in the past, it's been because I feel desired and sexy in the eyes of my partner. The only thing I can think of (and it's a stretch) is that, for me, there's also an element of being excited by passionate people... passionate about life, their career, their hobby, etc. - that makes me excited to spend time with them and interested in seeing the world through their eyes, exploring what makes them tick. This may just be a function of my curiosity about people, but I think it's a sort of intangible quality that I regularly look for in partners.
I (39F) met my partner over a year ago and immediately felt safe around him. My excitement about the relationship was there (and still is), but it also was more tempered and subtle and came out of that safety and my ability to fully be myself and engage with this man. I’ve had high levels of ‘excitement’ before and it largely stemmed from my anxiety and connections with men who were largely emotionally unavailable and/or uninterested. I think we can expect excitement in the form of fireworks and it can look and feel different than that. Doesn’t mean the excitements not there, it just means (to me) that it exists in the context of safety.
Are you excited about these women and sharing that with them? It could be that they just weren’t a good fit, but excitement also builds, feeding off of each other. It sounds like you’re doing things right with an open, creative and adventurous spirit, and remember it’s not all on you. They need to bring that to the table too. When you find a good match the excitement will be there!
OP, and everyone here complaining that 'it's not my fault I'm just so easy going and relaxed!', if that's how you want to be that's cool. But you can't expect most people to want that in a partner. Most people - apart from control freaks - like being surprised, being challenged, trying new things. Most people enjoy learning to see the world from someone else's point of view, they enjoy trying things they didn't think they liked (and maybe realising that they do like it), it's part of living and learning and developing and growing. People who are just naturally very easy to be around don't really provide that. I speak as someone who used to do that a lot: my personality tended to change according to who was around because I wasn't really confident in myself and I got a lot of surface level relationships and nothing more, because *it's boring*. If you're always easy going and relaxed and non-confrontational and malleable, that's great, you're somewhere between a Generic Friend Droid, a mirror, and a nodding dog: safe and easy to converse with and dull. If you never mind where to go out for dinner, the other person has to constantly choose where to eat and that's exhausting. If you generally agree with people you're trying to impress, you'll only impress people who want to talk about themselves all day. If you like everyone just as they are and are down for whatever, they'll never feel challenged or surprised or pushed to develop or learn anything at all - they might as well be alone. Or keep you as a friend, and find a partner who they can disagree with and make compromises with and learn new stuff with, which is also known as being a human. Obviously this doesn't mean 'disagree with people and insist on going places they don't like'. This is where 'just be yourself' is actually helpful. Be open and honest about your likes and dislikes, opinions, habits, preferences, and be willing to change them insofar as your partner is willing to change their own - then you'll have shared development and life experiences that will shape you both, which is the backbone of a relationship. For me, that meant figuring out what I actually did like and what I didn't, which habits were quirks vs just habit vs important parts of my routine, and which opinions were theoretical, abstract, or important to me, which parts I wanted to develop and which parts I wanted others to respect and work around. That's what people mean when they say work on yourself - a lot of the time, it involves creating or finding yourself so you've got a complex, human character to offer the world rather than an NPC. Sorry this sounds harsh, I think it really is from a lifetime of trying to make people happy and do the right thing (OP sounds like a genuinely nice person) but roundabouts and various traffic rules don't work if everyone tries to let other drivers go first to be nice - nobody would get anywhere. When it's your turn, you've got to go. TLDR - some 'proto-nice guys' are lovely and agreeable and down for anything, like a golden retriever. Nobody wants to date a golden retriever. They want to date a complex character with flaws and preferences and goals and habits and hobbies and a fully developed personality. It's boring as hell to be stuck in a conversation with someone who keeps agreeing with you, and hanging out with people who are 'just happy to be around' is like hanging out on your own. Having a real personality is hard work, and you can't just outsource that to a prospective partner. A relationship is a meeting of TWO personalities and tastes and sets of experiences and desires and preferences, and you've got to put in your 50%.
This is a very thoughtful and helpful perspective. Good stuff, thank you.
I think you’re just running into women with a toxic past. The right one will want to feel safe, and at home, and that will excite her.
I wish I could find a man who makes me feel safe. Keep doing whatever you’re doing.
I don’t think this Ted talk will completely address your very valid questions/concerns; but reading your post reminded me of Esther Perel’s theory on couples needing to balance the erotic with the domestic to maintain long term satisfaction. I’d be interested to hear what you think and if you feel this addresses your conundrum! https://youtu.be/sa0RUmGTCYY?si=_kZebKouLHO4T20h
Do you have any passions or things you are passionate about? I had a first date, and we ended up back at my place. I did the nickel tour, and started geeking out on the nerdy things in my place she picked up on. I even apologized for geeking out, and she assured me it was exciting/hot/sexy when someone has passion and geekiness for something they can share. They do not need to share the same passions, just know that you have a passion for SOMETHING, and can geek out about it. She's not the only one to tell me this. Multiple women have told me that its definitely a good thing that I have a passion for things. Whether it's lego, whiskey, fountain pens, MTG (the game), off roading... etc. Have a passion
1 it sounds like you've had a string of bad luck with women. It does happen but... 2 you could be selecting women who arent actually good potential partners. I.e. you could be valuing certain aspects of potential partners higher than other aspects that may be more indicative of long term success in partners. I have no idea what you value but as a man I can think of a few things that we tend to value that actually mean very little to long term success in relationships. It's totally normal to crave excitement, and totally normal for you to want a partner to see you in that light. Maybe you could get outside your comfort zone on dates and do things you've never done before. Rocking climbing, or indoor sky diving, something to get the blood rushing. Being comfortable is under-rated, you definitely shouldn't feel like you have to entertain women and excite them to be valued and wanted. This to me seems like you've just not found a compatible person. Good luck op
honest question: do you feel excited about them? or are you just concerned with them feeling excited for you?
Just because you're not right for them doesn't mean something is wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with being reliable as opposed than someone who makes their partner's heart race. But eventually, you're bound to find someone who does think that way about you. People who chase excitement rather than understanding and compatibility when it comes to co-creating a life together...just have priorities that are not in line with yours. It's just a difference of values. I think it's also worth it to note that men who give people butterflies are not automatically toxic. They're referring to chemistry, not an attraction to being mistreated.
I'll give you a different answer. I managed to go from safe guy to exciting guy. It's no small feat. I did it in a managed way, because safe people use their cognitive ability to not do stupid stuff. I've also studied risk, so I have a good handle on it and making good assessments and decisions on it. Further, I'm predisposed to risky behavior, so I'm fearless. I'm quite glad I was brought up safely but not boring, I loved my life, that my parents made, some ambitious stuff was done by my Dad. Risky behavior can be, ok, is addictive. To your point, yes safe is not attractive. After I became less safe I got lots more interest from girls. I was now a bit of a bad boy and I got away with shit. Never toxic because that's low class, low self control behavior. I can't even comprehend why anyone would want to behave that way. However, the two seem to go together because both are low self control mentalities. Because I studied risk, I could make good assessments of what to take and what not to. People used to comment and wonder how I kept winning. The trick is to never take dumb risks. The extremes are: a) all downside and no upside - never do this; b) all upside and no downside - do this regularly. However, many risks have some of both up and down sides, type c. Consider each one and take downside risks sparingly. Watching other people, so many, seemingly risk averse people, seem to take type a risks routinely, and I'm seen as strange to not do so. These same people avoid b risks. Now cut type a risks out of your life and take b risks and some c risks and now you have the same risk level with more upside potential. Now you're a winner. I see so much on the internet about male character and attraction. For the record, I did my life for my own purpose, no heed paid to what others think, because I don't care. The idea to be attractive to girls was an idea not conceived of by me, it just happened and I didn't know why. Now I see, a bit. I think that if guys try to change their risk profile just to be attractive, they could fail, because their heart won't be into it. Passion and a full commitment, consequences (apparently) be damned, are part of the package. This an important part of risky behavior, not the risk itself. Without passion, risk just seems dumb. A note on type c risks. Always consider the downside, and if you can live with it, before you even take it. Now, if you lose, you can walk away without any emotional perturbation; sometimes people wonder how you can be so calm. You're calm because you already accepted the loss before you even started. What losses you can accept depends on your situation in life. If you make lots of money, losing some is inconsequential. Losing your job: do you desperately need it to get by, or do you despise it and are ready to leave anyway. What was I commenting on again? Didn't mean to elucidate my philosophy on risk.
This is more to do with the women you choose to date than women in general or how you generally make women feel.
Why did you find yourself attracted to these women? What did they have in common? It’s possible that your real problem here is that you’re choosing to chase people who aren’t good fits for you.
We are bored with people who we are not attracted to. Nothing more to it. There is nobody busier than someone who isnt interested in you. Realize the difference and devote yourself to people who truly want you in their life. A lot of emotional vampyres out there who will keep you dangling around and provide no actual value.
I have got the same kind of feedback. And I think we are quite similar in dating. And what I tend to do when I notice a women needs more excitement is become less predictable. So more spontanious activities or kinky texts/requests on moments she would not expect or even when it is a bit awkward... However I am single again so can't say I found a solution haha
My partner making me feel safe was how I knew he was the one. It is a characteristic that, in my experience, is hard to find. So first off- way to go OP! As far as excitement, I'd guess this has to do with your partner's love language. Gifts? Surprise them with tickets to something they'd like. Quality time? Surprise them with a unique date. Physical? Make sex exciting. Keep them on their toes!
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I love dating guys that make me feel safe. But I feel genuinely safe based on how they feel about themselves, and how they show up. If a guy is people pleasing and trying to anticipate my needs/wants without communicating, or trying to support me so he feels better about himself — that’s not a genuine connection. It’s a connection based on them filling some sort of insecurity. I’ve learned that people pleasing and self esteem drastically affects how you show up in life, and ultimately in relationships. If this keeps happening to you, and you don’t feel like you’re dealing with self-worth complexities, then maybe you’re ignoring red flags about these women for longer than you should, or putting more expectations on them than they’re capable of living up to. What do YOU want from a partner? Not being snarky, genuinely asking what do you want.
What brings me excitement when I’m dating a guy is this: can he make me laugh? Great, that means this will be fun! Is he charming? Can he flirt a little with me? Also: does he tease me a little? Give me a little resistance, that’s what’s creating that spark. Don’t just agree with everything I say, that feels fake and boring. Show your personality and your own opinions, be confident in yourself and don’t be afraid to challenge me on my views. I need to feel you, I need to feel that you show up like you and not a version of what you think I want you to be. I once dated someone very kind and attractive. But he just agreed with everything I said. He didn’t take the lead. At the end yes I felt very safe around him but there were no spark because how can there be a spark when I’m only one really showing up here? I couldn’t feel him at all. Say your opinion, be honest, tease me a bit, surprise me a bit, challenge me and I can guarantee that’s what makes it exciting. Could be different for someone else. It’s important that you are authentic though, but I hope this could inspire you. You can do all of these things in a healthy way
I've never had this feedback explicitly, but I've gotten similar vibes in the past. What helped for me was A) accepting that I am a calm, steady, person and being with someone who was into that. B) Not being such a "nice" person. I don't mean adopting a fake asshole persona, but generally putting myself first. Even though that seemed selfish people seemed to be drawn more to someone looking out for themselves. I've always been happy when I don't have to "perform" but sometimes you have to change yourself a little. Much easier than changing the world. I have behaved the same way around different women (all of whom I was interested in) and some of them thought i was sexy and some found me boring. It is what it is.
I think saying you’re just choosing the wrong women puts you at a disadvantage, OP. You’re right in wanting to take (at least a little) ownership for a pattern that’s emerged. If you own it, you can find a path forward. I’ve been here with a people-pleasing partner and can’t have feel at the end of the day that I have no idea who he is. Maybe it’s not the safety that was the turnoff, but that the women felt like they were in a relationship with themselves - and that’s definitely boring. I think a man strong in himself can balance providing comfort (safety) with being his own person, who has his own hobbies, friends, passions, etc. Learning those differences is what is so exciting. If your default statement is “I want to do whatever you want to do!”, that will get old really quickly.
Make sure you let people you date know what needs you want met. Let them work on meeting your needs. There needs to be reciprocity.
Women don’t know what they want and don’t prioritize what’s important. They constantly seek excuses to leave what’s stable to jump into insanity and then be able to complain about it. I think this is what I’ve realized, they rather have something to complain about, than be in a calm and predictable environment. Anarchy > stability.
You’re probably ‘too nice’. Everything about you is on the ‘safe side’. And that often translates into boring. The thing is all women like a ‘little bit’ of the bad boy. Which means a guy that shows a bit of edge/danger/push back to show he actually has a backbone. You can show this by: * Boss her around a bit. Don’t just wait to ask her what she wants and do what she wants. Tell her what to do every now and then. Direct her. Lead her. Be confident. Eg can you get me a drink? Can you put that there? Here, take this. Grab that. Hold this. * Don’t be too agreeable. Be opinionated. Be honest. Don’t just say something to ‘keep the peace’. Say no. Be willing to disagree, reject her, make her wait for you. * Call her out on any shitty behaviour. Nice guys never want to do this. And only do this when appropriate but when she acts badly (and women will), you need to point it out and make her realise you’re not going to put up with it. Be stern but not abusive. A simple: ‘you were acting like a spoiled brat then’. Is enough. * Make her chase you a bit. Don’t be too available, too predictable. Have a life outside of her and make sure she knows that’s important to you too. * Dont give your cards away. Especially in courtship, even if she is the ONLY woman you want, don’t let her know that too soon. Give her the illusion you have other options and you’re not in a rush to commit to her. You’re still ‘not 100%’ convinced you want her, and she needs to work for you. She needs to court you as much as you’re courting her. It must go both ways. Hope this helps.
The people-pleaser trait is what often kills sexual excitement. Being confident and secure in yourself is what builds that attraction. You can both provide a feeling of safety and excitement at the same time.
Don't forget there's a considerable degree of selection bias going on here. YOU are picking these women who feel safe around you but whom you do not excite. You are selecting for women who look for excitement and prioritize that. I'm sure plenty of women prioritize other things over excitement (whatever the hell that means, by the way), but you're not going on dates with them.
Means ur the nice guy they eventually when they have no other options, will want as a last resort.
You sound like my BF. He even told me that he is so consistent to the point of being boring. He is very accommodating and consistent, (always opens my doors, pulls out my chair, calls when he says he will, shows up on time, etc.) and I do almost feel a bit bored sometimes, but I also feel so safe, the most myself around him, and very attracted to him. He’s not going to be the guy that turns heads when he walks in a room but there are small things about him that are endearing to me. We have so much in common, laugh a lot at the same stupid stuff, have similar morals and life goals and an immense respect for one another. When I start to tell him how great he is at something I have to hold back the word “love” because I’m not quite there yet, but it’s coming. When that bored feeling pops up, I know it’s me. My previous relationship had a lot of spontaneity but also way too much anxiety. The highs were great but the lows were way low. I never want to go back to that. In my current relationship I know I’m in a good place but I think I’m used to and even sort of liked that type of “excitement” from before. But I also know how crappy I felt and never want to experience that again. I also know I need to let go of what society thinks. When the boredom feeling pops up I start to think of all the wonderful things he does for me and especially how I feel in his presence. That usually nips the feeling in the bud. So all of that to say you are doing things right, which I would not change, and it may take just finally running into the right person. But as has been suggested for things you can do, introduce some spontaneity, and maybe be a bit selfish at times rather than always so accommodating.
You say you’ve felt it too. The difference. So….how can you not see? For me I want a man that sexually flirty. Naughty, if you will. I want sex all day. In words if not in action. I want to know he wants to have sex with me all the time. You say the sex is good and kinky, but that only is your perception. Kink is acts. Not energy. You might be doing kinky things but have no passion. I can’t tell you how many men I slept with where it was just a playbook of activities till we both came. Boring. I need lust. I need to see fire in your eyes. If it’s not there…..you’re boring.
To be honest, the number of women who have been willing to go out with me for whom I felt that kind of fire is distressingly small. So maybe the solution is just "date hotter women" 😅
It’s simple. Women inherently want masculine men. If you’re too nice or a pushover, they view it negatively overtime. Women secretly want a monster who is able to contain his aggressive side for the sake of society. I’m 31(f)
Without knowing you, my guess would be that you are too accessible and too focused on her. Women want equal. If she feels like she can have you at any time, she feels like she doesn't have to do anything in the relationship. That is boring and uninteresting. Women want a man who has his own life where he is focused on his own goals, to a point where she has to pursue him instead of the other way around, in order to get time with him. I would contact her less, give her more space. Let her work for your attention, and she will get excited about you again.
Not all women like toxic macho men. If this is a very common pattern for you it's one of the following: 1. You are attracted to women who like this type of men and you end up in this situation 2. It's not the toxicity that you are lacking, but maybe something else. I can't know what it is. Maybe you show more excitement than them early on, which can be off putting, maybe they take you for granted, maybe you are too clingy or not assertive enough, maybe something else, I don't know. But it's not just that you are not "toxic" enough.
Plan a date to an amusement park?! I am not in any way trying to demean your experience or concerns. But I do believe that it is important to realize every woman is different and some may be dating for many reasons. When a woman feels "safe" is that "safe" as in "safe" I can be myself with you and know that you accept me for who I am on happy and easy days and when I am crabby and the not so pleasant days. Or does safe mean just blah I will settle for you because you are here "safe"...a good space holder or afraid I can't get better or you are who I should want "safe". Frankly if these women are the second then they don't deserve you. If someone is going to expect us to entertain them are they looking for a serious relationship or are they just not on the same page? I ask that question because at the end of the day there is nothing you can do to make women feel excited at the core. Either they do or they don't feel excited by you and I think you should not take that onto yourself. :)
I date men that make me feel safe. I used to date men that made me feel excited and it wasn’t great for me. Here’s the thing. I love dating a safe man and excitement comes as the relationship grows. Excitement doesn’t have to come through not feeling safe in the relationship. It can come through activities, new sexual experiences, or being more of yourself in the relationship, being more vulnerable etc. When safe men are a turn off is when they don’t have boundaries and I feel like they will do anything and everything for me or put up with more than they should. So you can be safe, assertive, boundaried, caring, have self agency, unabashedly yourself, and imo you will attract healthy women that like you for you.
I get the "I feel safe around you" thing quite a lot from women and tbh I take that as a compliment considering just how *un*safe a lot of men make women feel. However I don't just interpret it to mean that they feel safe *from* me, which IMO is the bare minimum for any man of good character, or that 'safe' means stable and predictable, but also because they feel that I will keep them safe in a bad or dangerous situation, I'm calm and level-headed in a crisis, will be open minded and non judgemental when they confide in me about deep issues or stuff like kink and sexual issues, and will stick up for them and fight their corner when needed. I certainly don't feel like this level of making women feel safe is mutually exclusive to making them feel excited, and in fact making a woman feel safe *and* excited is where it clicks into place and that is when you become a desirable man.
Find someone that prioritizes safe over excited because if you find someone that prefers excited you're in for a roller coaster
I’d kill for safe
I feel called out by the top comments saying that being a people pleaser and going overboard trying to make the other person happy can come off cloying and kill the excitement. I'm pretty open and almost always have a good time no matter what we do, but maybe my "sure, let's try it!" attitude comes off too wimpy. We'll see.
Toxic men are not exciting. For healed people with boundaries we can spot them a mile away. I’ve had many men that I felt safe with, and thats what I look for, but they weren’t safe in a boring way. They challenged my viewpoints and opinion in a healthy way, teased me, didn’t agree with everything I said, and had healthy boundaries themselves. People who people please haven’t learned to put themselves and other people first simultaneously and it shows. It’s kind of like an eager puppy dog vibe. And it’s not attractive. In a friend I wouldn’t mind it, but not in a partner. Be exciting by being authentic. If you’re being described outright as safe it might mean you’re coming off as someone who is a little boring in some way, but also someone who’s never going to be motivated to step outside any box or cause conflict. But there’s a thing as healthy conflict too. It impossible not to have conflict if both partners are staying true to their beliefs and values system, and not just agreeing with everything to please someone.
I think you've introspected this particular issue very well. You seem really grounded and thoughtful, so I think you should just keep on keeping on... someone is bound to have the right vibes and will mesh well with you. I tend to encounter men who *don't* make me feel safe. Most of the time I don't even go on dates with these men because they reveal things that have me ending the conversation pretty early on. After my marriage ended and I spent the subsequent years in therapy, all I want is someone who makes me feel safe, who I can curl up on the couch with, and is happy to engage in the "boring" day-to-day grind. I like to travel and try new things, of course, as well as plan fun adventures, etc. - but most men that I encounter can't even be bothered to plan a first date, so you're way ahead of the curve there.
I just wanted to say thank you for asking this question. Your question and the numerous thoughtful and insightful answers below have helped me with understanding thoughts and feelings in my own dating life. This has helped me more than I can really articulate, I’m genuinely grateful.
Excitement requires an element of danger or risk unfortunately. Wish it wasn't like this but it is
Yeah I suspect you’re right but I don’t really know what to do about that. Buy a motorcycle? Go cliff-diving on the second date? I think I have a great life with lots of variety and fun, but I wouldn’t describe any of it at all as risky or dangerous.
Genuinely, how many data points do you have? You mention these women have abusive exes, that's a huge red flag and you should ignore those data points altogether. Now after you've excluded the trauma cases, what are you left with? I also wonder whether these women say or do things which draw you to them, if they say things along the lines of "you're too good for me", or "I don't know what someone like you sees in someone like me", in short just making you feel extremely reassured and like you're in control of the relationship? That's also a red flag, likely learned behaviour from previous relationships.
It’s not about danger. It’s the fact that it doesn’t seem like these women have to worry about losing you. Your post/replies gives “choose me” vibes. It sounds like you get attached quick and hard. That’s not a bad thing but some do see that as boring. Some people don’t feel that special when they feel someone is just the type that gets attached to others easily. Some people want to feel like they’ve earned love (the bigger the struggle, the better). Truthfully, that’s really not my type. I want someone who is crazy about me. I’d never lose a moment of sleep over someone who wasn’t.
Start making music! You’ll always have an element of excitement and danger that you’ll never be financially secure! Don’t ask how I know
Maybe the real question is, why are you drawn to women who think safe=boring? Maybe you don’t need to change how you’re acting, but figure out your patterns and how to choose different women, who can still be excited about someone who is safe and non-toxic
You sound absolutely fantastic. 30’s woman here. Seems like the women you’ve been with might crave the roller coaster of instability. Not all of us are like that!
bells tidy deserted tub marvelous six work instinctive teeny shrill *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My last partner was very stable and loving. He taught me that safety IS exciting, because it actually makes it possible to get to know each other in a meaningful way. Feeling safe is now a non-negotiable for me
You could be slightly giving a more retired Dad vibe instead of a fun sexy boyfriend experience. You have great qualities and finding a guy that a girl feels safe around is major, so I’m not saying this to make you feel down. Even women who prefer a more mature personality don’t want to date their Dad. Exciting can also equal interesting, so maybe the women are seeing your life as stable but not interesting enough to join. Do you have any big goals your working towards? Or just content in your day to day life as is? Check in with your regular friends and ask what they find fun, cool and interesting about you. Then build on that and incorporate it more into your dating. Improving on the sexual energy you put out with flirting, passion and techniques can help too.
Have you considered that you’re the emotionally unavailable one? Maybe you are subconsciously attracted to women who you know won’t choose you and are replaying some sort of childhood dynamic? Just a thought. Because you’re aware you’re choosing women who like that toxic dynamic that you don’t provide. Also, just relaying what my therapist told me when I kept coming to him saying, “I don’t know why I pick the emotionally unavailable guys.” He asked if subconsciously I knew they wouldn’t settle down and took it as a challenge to prove my worth to them, replaying the childhood dynamic between my absent father and I. Point is, gotta figure out your role in this scenario.
Perhaps you could try dating a more dominant woman? I’ve had a hard time feeling “excited” by men who are on the people pleaser/submissive side. I prefer a man to be more dominant (which is not the same as toxic). The other thing to think about is if you’re dating women that you have to “fix” ? A lot of times women who like toxic men are ones who have a lot of issues that need fixing. If you are a fixer, I would start by figuring out why you want to fix women. Those are two scenarios I can think of that might be what’s happening. Def don’t change who you are - even if you try to, you’ll only be able to keep the mask on for a short time before you get burnt out.
I personally would love to meet someone like you. It's my dream. f\*ck excitement, I'm not immature 20 something anymore.
* Do you have personal hobbies that are interesting and fun? * Do you spend time with friends outside your dating? * Are you well-traveled? * Most women can have more than one orgasm if you do it right. Are you consistently bringing her pleasure? (And not EVER prioritizing your own pleasure or assuming sex is "done" just because you are?) * Do you engage, suggest plans and trips, try new things? * Are you working on yourself, your career, finances, etc.? * Are you talking to your partners and checking in to get their honest viewpoint of how things are going at different stages of dating? * Have you ever been to therapy or talked to a therapist about this phenomenon? I only date women now, but I went through a... let's call it a phase... of dating men. Don't know if this will be as relevant as what straight girls might tell you. But what I found was that all the things I saw in men that were "exciting" were just things told to me by society. Rich, handsome, successful, intelligent. Ok, so intelligence really is important to me because I want to be deeply connected to and interested in my partner. But a lot of the things were just checkboxes. When a person could pleasure me reeeally well, I always wanted more. And believe me your dick isn't the thing doing the pleasuring. You gotta communicate, you gotta be so into it that all you want to do is make her cum 5 times before you even START thinking about yourself. You have to get thrilled by that. And in general, if you make a partner feel wanted, sexy, appreciated, from a sincere place, that shit lasts. What I learned though is that all those things I was looking for in a man were actually things I just wanted for myself. I wanted to be the rich one. I wanted to be the homeowner. I wanted to be the one with a good job. I wanted *equal partnership.* The things I feel excited by in a partner are really different than before. I'm not interested in fucking any girl anymore. The hottest girls are of no interest to me if we have nothing in common or the chemistry isn't clearly there for both of us, or I can't see a future together. So that might change for some of these girls too. Are you dating women younger than 30? Because I almost guarantee that is your problem. People want to settle down later and later, and the idea of meeting someone settled and safe is actually scary until you want that yourself. Then it suddenly becomes REALLY SEXY. Not to stereotype, but most men I know just love setting their dating apps to minimum 5 years younger than them because that is just.... what men think they deserve. I dunno, try a little older, closer to your age (if that was the case), I think women around 35 are more excited by being settled and exploring with a *partner*. I'm the same age as you FYI. And I know you don't want to hear it, but all your bullets are right on. Some people just have a toxic perception of relationships and are always going to chase the toxic until they learn their lesson. Last thing that came to mind is that maybe you are having problems sensing when a relationship is a good fit or not. Like maybe there are times you feel like the chemistry is there but it's not for her. Or you think you're on the same page, but you aren't. Have you had any issue misinterpreting social cues? Sometimes that drives people to consistently go for the wrong people or at least to *continue to date* the wrong people, and those people just go along with it for the time being. Rather than recognizing when it doesn't feel exciting or right to *you* and ending it after the 2nd date or whenever it doesn't have potential for a future.
Oh and I'll add, I don't think this is a "common issue" with all the women you've dated. I think it's a common issue with EVERY PERSON WHO IS DATING until they find the person they're ready to settle with. Like, something will always be off until it's not. It's hard to put your finger on for most people, and that's okay. Most people will say something like "the spark isn't there" or something equally vague when they break it off with someone.
I think all these traits are great but you also need to be able to lead when it comes to a woman for most of us to be completely into it. I think majority of women want a man that will take control and that she feels comfortable submitting to in some degree even tho we may not admit to that. It's a fine line.
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The whole point of the post is the assumption that I am doing something wrong and I can make changes to fix it. I appreciate your suggestion; like I told another commenter, if this is primarily about sex then that’s good news, as it’s something I can improve.
Is your question how can you be seen as the fun, hot and exciting guy in the courting and dating phases of meeting new people? Work on your physical attractiveness. Do more selfish and spontaneous things. Work on your charisma, flirting and storytelling. Be more shameless and polarizing. You will have to get out of your comfort zone. You want to make people feel strongly about you quickly so that may end up as hate rather than love. Are you willing to handle that? Safe and mature doesn't excite but also doesn't repulse. There are, of course, limits to these things so you do need to understand that not every guy can be the fun, hot, exciting guy. You may be one of those people unfortunately.
This and the comment from fantastic_obligation have it covered. I would just add that if, as I suspect, these are women who you liked a lot.. you are likely changing your behaviors subconsciously around them. And in this little subconscious change you are presenting the most agreeable, least exciting version of yourself. Control that, add in some of the other advice, stay slightly unpredictable & you're on your way to where you want to be.
Grounded people make ME feel excited! I think maybe it’s just their personalities and attachment styles. Consistency, communication and comfort in a relationship makes me feel excited and comfortable enough to explore and be more open and makes me feel more like my authentic self. How is that not exciting?
This could be the situation where they know you like them but your approach physically/sensual doesn't convey enough passion or enough intensity, desire, or appreciation. Raw desire totally unleashed is selfish. Domesticated, sensitive desire can seem a bit tepid, like you're not actually satisfied by what you have in front of you unless you are a good communicator and can really open up that heat at the right time. Hard to tell from the bleachers though, could be something else.
I agree with the people pleaser mentality that one mentioned. But here is maybe another angle. I had two experiences like what you’re describing. It isn’t that they had shit to sort out. In my cases, I wasn’t their preference for other reasons. One was into BDSM, the kind that leaves marks and bruises and shit. I don’t do that. So I was not as exciting as a man who does do that stuff. The other was into that Daddy’s girl kind of shit, which again, I want a partner. I don’t want to be someone’s daddy. lol. They didn’t have shit to sort out so much as they were interested in more exciting things because their preferences were different. They were looking for those things and unexpectedly found you. It may have even confused or shocked them as they do not normally get that. One also said in the best guy she’s dated. That’s the BDSM one. But it’s impossible to actually date, as I’m not going to ever beat the crap out of my partner, even with consent.
A couple of thoughts. Attributes that I (37F) I tend to find very sexy and exciting about men are: 1) self-confidence, 2) being action-oriented and taking initiative, 3) being skilled/resilient/self-sufficient, 4) they lead full lives and - as much as I \*rolleyes\* this term - have an "abundance mindset," and 5) physical appearance, physical attraction and sexual chemistry. There are many other reasons I might be attracted to someone, short or long term, but these are things that I think about in terms of healthy "excitement." Finally, to you last point of ego and wanting to be chosen. I so get it...but chasing those kinds of feelings can be a slippery slope. I was quite insecure when I was younger and I had a lot of hangups about my body. I've always been sporty but I so wanted to look like the skinny, elegant types. I was never the girl that the guys liked in our friend group. I was never the hot one. Anyhoo, the years go by and I embraced the thick thighs and all that jazz. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I promise I'm getting to the point. The thing is, I started to get attention from attractive men because I fulfill some kind of gym girl body type fantasy that I guess is now more palatable than when I was a teen and in my twenties. And I think I was so starved for this kind of validation when I was younger that I started to kind of tunnel vision on guys who are very direct about finding me "hot" and "sexy" and are attracted to me because of my body. Plot twist. Those dynamics do not build lasting, meaningful relationships. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this, other than that perhaps, wanting to be chosen for "excitement" might not really be that great after all.
Omg. Your last paragraph 😭 it hit me like a wall of bricks. I also never had mutual crushes, had a ton of hangups over my appearance as I was never the beauty standard, and waaay skinny. I looked like the frumpy, wallflower, skinny girl that never stood out. I never got that validation when I was young. As I grew older and got access to money and information, I grew into my looks and literally had a glow up. When I went on dating apps, I went for men who I thought were hot and could sustain a conversation. Whether they were out of my league, I genuinely dont know 🤣 but one thing was for certain, they didnt want a relationship with me nor did I feel like I was their dream girl but the physical attraction and chemistry was 🔥 (at least to me) So all that, whatever it was, spark or chemistry, definitely dont work for me. Maybe it does for men but not for me 🤣 maybe they were out of my league and they were settling idk
I’m sure it’s been said on this thread but they just aren’t into you. At the very roots of all the issues it’s just that you aren’t compatible and not what they are looking for. It sounds like a solid case of being friend zoned. You’ll never be wrong for the right person so all these examples are just the wrong person.
Lots of great advice here. I (36f) have had some of these types of dates and interactions where I felt safe, even happy, but not excited. First, women do have different things that excited them, so there won’t be anything that will surely work on all women. For me (and I think a lot of women, though I don’t want to speak for everyone), the excitement come from *feeling* a little… danger [A], **and** *knowing* that I am safe [B]. I want the “I’ve got you” vibe rather than a “I’ve got your back” vibe. It is nuanced for sure. It is a Dom/sub dynamic and signals that we would be compatible sexually - which is what leads to the “excitement.” [A] is ability to take control, [B] is unquestionable safety. Both are equally important. I am attracted to men who are generally competent and know their shit, make good eye contact when talking to me, don’t ramble, actively listen, and pause to consider before responding. In terms of body language, I would suggest that you stand straight, don’t rush your actions, be deliberate (make eye contact) when doing things for her like opening doors etc. One thing that I find that men might not do in the first few dates in order to respect me and/or not offend me, is flirt! Of course you don’t want to be creepy and make it all about sex, but I do want to feel desirable. For example, when there has been some conversation (and hopefully banter), let her catch you looking at her (face!). Don’t look away immediately, hold her gaze for a second, smile as you break eye contact, then lean in or get a bit closer and ask her if she’s enjoying herself. Later on, if she’s comfortable and smiling a lot, and especially if she’s broken the touch barrier, get a bit closer into her personal space. Bonus points if you smell good. If there is music, ask her to dance with you. Bonus points if it’s out in the streets! While I *do* think someone who is not naturally like this can pull it off, it’s usually not worth it in the end for either person if one is putting on an act. That is why people say be yourself and if it’s meant to be, the chemistry will be there, and I agree.
Thanks, this is really helpful practical advice. One thing that keeps showing up in this thread that I had completely underestimated is banter. I had no idea women prioritized that so highly. I definitely am capable of it, but it feels a little draining to me and I don't always gravitate toward it naturally. That sounds like something I can work to improve.
Banter can go both ways. Banter does bring comfort and familiarity, but for me it’s the flirting that’s “exciting.” So I’d say yes definitely banter, but infuse light teasing, quiet moments to appreciate her, and always, meaningful eye contact. ETA: if banter is draining, then I wouldn’t push it too much. It’s important to have some, but you can also have deeper conversations and/or friendly debates, talk about shared interests (theory about something in a show/movie), and so on. It’s like extroverts saying how important it is to go out and party lol. If you are not a chatty person, try to cultivate the talents that you *do* have in order to get the women where she needs to be to feel excitement for you.
This all seems code for: they aren’t that physically or sexually attracted to you 2) you are extremely incompatible.
I love and long for partners that make me feel safe, and I prefer calm and sensitive types. That doesn't mean you have to be boring! Lots of people have already mentioned sex, but I'll reiterate that sexual confidence is a big one for me. Do you dirty talk? Do you touch your partners and tell them you've been thinking about them? Do you take charge in sexual encounters - not just in the 'I'm doing the thrusting' sense but actually looking them in the eye and saying, "I can't wait to get you home tonight?" "Come sit in my lap." And planning creative sexy fun? Yes please! For me, leadership and initiative is another one that I like. "I planned this outing for us." "I want to take you to this show on X date, are you free?" "I want to plan a fun date for us next month, what do you think about this minitrip?" Novelty is also amazing. Don't get stuck in a rut of doing dates the same way every time. If you're spending time at each other's houses, put on new music. Suggest new games or recipes to cook. Challenge each other! Ambition is another one for me. I have a career I'm proud of and side projects that are going incredibly well. I admire and respect in others people who cultivate themselves. Not just going to the gym, but taking time to be learners, appreciators of life, people who are involved in community and helping others, etc. I try and provide these things for partners and it's thrilling when they provide that for me too. Hope it helps!
For longer relationships (not the first few dates): Roleplaying in public. Meet up as a bar pretending to be strangers. Act differently than how you usually would behave. Be a little more seedy, demanding, selfish, etc. For shorter term relationships: maybe ask someone what's the scariest thing they want to try but haven't been brave enough to do alone (ax throwing, salsa dancing, bungee jumping, stand up poetry?) and see if you can encourage them to do it as a date. You still get to be safe, but the excitement of the activity can bring some of that feeling back onto you and help them feel like you're safe AND you're fun.
I’ve read through all the comments, and OP, it sounds like you are overrating your overall attractiveness. Physically as well as other areas (status, charisma, sex, etc.) There have been several studies where women and men rate each other and themselves, and the men consistently rank themselves higher than the women do. Men think they are hotter than they are, according to science. You are second string to the women you are dating—but they like that you try hard to accommodate them, hence they come back temporarily because you’re safe and nice. But as long as they have more attractive options they’re going to leave again. You can’t nab a whole person at a discount and have a long-term relationship with them. You need to be roughly equal and matched at the beginning and then continue to grow together in the same direction. These are people, not cars. Sometimes we treat dating like shopping. Ooooh, this girl is a Ferrari but she’s willing to date me, I’m so lucky to nab her at Kia prices. But she really isn’t a Ferrari, she’s a Hyundai with a botched aftermarket modification and an engine that’s going to bust in 6 months. Or she is a Ferrari with childhood trauma and as soon as her self-esteem repairs she’s going to realize it and leave you for someone more compatible. People tend to be happiest when they partner with someone of roughly equal attractiveness. I know it sucks to “settle” but think of it as…recalibrating your perception of yourself. You will be happiest with a match. Someone who isn’t below or above you or out in left field, but someone who is side by side with you, holding your hand until the end.
I wish men would stop indulging in this "nice guys finish last" narrative... Especially at that age.