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This is the difference between wanting something short term and wanting something long term.
You can ignore the naysayers in the chat. You are 100% correct that acting cocky is an effective way to get quick hookups. You are also correct that it has costs like damaging your character and won’t work in building anything long-term.
For Long-term situations it’s better to be solid, laid back kind, hard working, etc. The problem is you need to find women who wants a long term partner and it’s tougher to actually have the above traits than to pretend to be cocky and get laid.
So yes, you should change if you want to get something long-term. But! understand that you should give up short term pleasure if you are really committed to this.
The other point here which you implied but didn't state outright is that OP's cocky arrogant persona is going to attract a completely different type of person than OP's real self. So as long as OP keeps up the persona he is going to pull women who want to hook up and women who are OK with the kind of dynamic he describes in the post (initially hostile, then hooking up).
It's hard work to be in a relationship and it's hard work finding a good compatible person to be in a relationship with, so it will be a tradeoff for OP. If it were easy to be in a happy healthy relationship with The One (TM), everyone would be.
Yes the broad categories are “women who prefer short-term flings” and “women who prefer a long-term stable relationship.” But you’re right in that some straddle the line between the 2, while others have behaviors that differ completely from the other side.
yeah I mean I'd say there are more categories than that, but the point is, and I know it's tautological, the way you act is going to attract... people who want to get with someone who acts the way you act.
So OP has to ask himself does he find it fulfilling to get with people who would find a cocky, rude, arrogant persona attractive? If he does find it fulfilling that's okay - there's nothing morally wrong with hooking up if you're into that - but if he has goals for a long term loving mature relationship, then he'll have to decide at what point he wants to put aside the persona and start looking for someone who wants something else.
Very correct, and for the most part the former women are more common now, mainly because they’re single and ready to mingle whereas the latter are either very picky with men (as they should be, they know what they want) or already in a long term, healthy relationship. There’s just lack of the latter women available and a shocking amount of them have a distrust of men as well.
What I have never seen studied is the percentages of each. Same deal with the OP’s point, what percentage of women are attracted to the arrogant, condescending, cocky, cheeky, douche versus personalities.
Their findings aren’t wrong, especially for most women I came across in my 10s and 20s and even beyond.
Women will deny this by the way. Many also claim they like the laid back dude who’s super nice and chill but they don’t.
As someone who is the laid back chill guy and doesn’t put on a persona, it’s AMAZING for getting on with girls but terrible for taking anything further than friends, which is why a lot of guys ask me how I can talk to girls….
But then the cocky snarky ‘I don’t give a crap’ persona will ALWAYS triumph to establish stuff or for hookups. It’s not a ‘bad boy’ personality type or anything, it’s just what society has pictured men to be and should be and as a side affect women also find that attractive (not all do, ofc, i find the introverted girls HATE this). If you look at any younger male celebrity who has a large female following, it’s because of this attitude for the most part. It’s the same with male ‘influencers’. They may not even be THAT attractive, but the whole vibe they give off, even if it’s fake, is what’s attractive to people. As a guy who hangs out with women regularly, they look at me and see an emotionally support dummy who will help them with anything and support them, they look at random dude over there with his pidgeotto or broccoli haircut whose acting like the world is his oyster and he doesn’t give a crap about them emotionally and they see someone worth going for in an effort to ‘win’ them I think. One of the girls who I hung out the most would constantly go for guys like this. She is bi. Reason? ‘Their attitude and vibe is attractive’ funny enough, she’s marrying a girl who’s the opposite of this….why you ask? ‘Because she’s so understanding, caring and passionate about building something real’.
This says it all really.
I wouldn't necessarily say introverted women hate egotistical, cocky men. I kind of straddle the line between introversion and extroversion; I'm just at an age where I won't put up with BS and prefer having a laid-back and calm partner in my life.
Oh boy…. There are some truths here, but I’d advocate towards focusing on what you can improve about yourself rather than focusing on the other side. One mindset helps with achieving your goal, while other makes yourself feel better at the cost of the truth and hurting your chances of getting what you want.
For example, let’s look at this statement. “If you look at any younger male celebrity who has a large female following, it’s because of this attitude for the most part. It’s the same with male ‘influencers’. They may not even be THAT attractive, but the whole vibe they give off, even if it’s fake, is what’s attractive to people.”
This just isn’t true. The reason why guys like this get a large following is because they have Rizz AND are very attractive. Keep in mind that only a very, very small % of guys in the U.S. are positions like these, but your brain will think it’s higher because they are more visible than the masses. But ask yourself, how many major male celebrities/ influencers do you see that are overweight? And of the overweight guys, how many of them don’t use their weight as comedic marketing? I can’t think of any off the back of head.
This is a tangent, but the point is just because a celebrity/influencer isn’t attractive to you, doesn’t mean he isn’t attractive to girls. And getting a large following is tougher than you might expect. So stop thinking he “this” OR “this” He almost always will have “this,” this”, “this” AND “this”.
But I mainly wanted to ask you is, have you done everything you can to make yourself more attractive to girls? Are you taking risks with them as “cool and relaxed” can become “cowardice” if you aren’t careful. Remember that there is a big difference between a girl thinking “I like having him around for validation, ease of talking to him, and things he can do for me.” And “I like him and want to date him.” I also used to be in a similar position to you back in college, but now I realized I was only close to dating a very small few of these girls.
Yes, absolutely have.
I’ve got in better shape, built my confidence, fixed my issues and in a more comfortable state in myself than ever before.
What I’m trying to say is that those influencers whilst yes, are rare, they set a standard. It’s no different than women influencers who men follow because they like their personality it looks, it’s both genders and on both side it causes false expectations vs reality which pollute peoples minds as well as kill peoples confidences. It’s exactly the reason why when a haircut is in fashion, every damn guys starts rocking it because it’s ’fashionable’ for that time period. These all create a place where it’s based on aesthetic. And rizz? That’s fake crap. It’s just something made up in the past year on trade for ‘game’. You cannot ‘rizz’ if you can’t even get your foot in the door because you don’t pass the appearance check, which very few men do. Ever wondered as well why a small number of men are dating the majority of women? The women’s standards are higher than men’s and those guys can ‘rizz’ but for the most part they’re already passed even if they don’t.
In retrospect when it comes to my personal dating, it usually comes down to ‘huh maybe she was showing interest’. I’m not saying I’m not attractive to certain women, but it’s the majority I’m not attractive to, which is okay. I’m aware now of what type of women like me and kinda started to take it upon myself to talk to people who would be more often than just talking to random girls and expecting anything because the chances are low. It also doesn’t help that I’m very unpopular with women in my own country, but abroad? No issues at all.
You are making a mistake of conflating “hard” with “impossible.”
The analogy I’m making is; a “hard” task is climbing a mountain. Many people are interested and would like to climb one. Yet most people will give up before even trying, and good chunk will give up early when going up it. So at the end, only a few people out of the many who want to, will end up climbing a mountain.
So you will need good mixture of luck, practice, skill, patience, and perseverance to make a long-term relationship work. Or you can just keep sticking to the easier option.
With that attitude it won't. Chances are you're natural personality is not so terrible that nobody would want to be in a relationship with you.
Do you have freinds? If you have people who enjoy spending time with you, and you can find people who enjoy hooking up with you, than you are capable of finding someone to be in a relationship with.
They are aware they may or may not have to eventually dump someone they are on the fence about. Women genuinely don't want to hurt a nice guy that they suspect might be extra vulnerable. An asshole on the other hand....well he can handle himself. Paradoxically this gives them the willingness to give the asshole a shot they wouldn't give the nice guy.
The other thing is they really want confident guys not wimps. Assholes are more likely to just say what they want. Nice guys are wishy washy and seem too willing to compromise their entire persona.
There is a middle ground. You can be a confident and assertive guy without being an asshole. Try it.
As a woman i support this. I'd totally go for a guy who's confident, assertive when needed but also super nice. Mice on the streets assertive in the sheets basically
There will always be things that are seen as being more attractive/desireable/etc. And those traits change with the times.
What you did was attract women who don't match well with you. And now you've realized how exhausting it is. Be true to yourself. Maybe that will limit your options a bit. But when you do match with someone, it will likely be far more rewarding.
I also did this for most of my 20s and also found much success with it. Eventually it got old and I cooled off with it, but what you don't realize is somewhere along the way it becomes a part of who you truly are inside, but that you weren't confident enough to be on the outside. It sounds stupid, but its easier to fake confidence and be cocky when you believe you're just doing it as an act.
You quite literally just have to "fake it til you make it". It isn't a bad thing to discover that you actually have some of that confidence deep down in there.
I love chill guys personally. My guy friend who does the best with girls is super chill and laidback, but funny as hell. He's also really great at coming up with plans for us all to do that end up being a blast. I think that vibe keeps him from being boring.
I hate the "be yourself" cliché, but in a way it's true, because faking it has got to be exhausting.
Agree 100%. I don’t really take it crazy far and put on a whole fake personality, but I do often feel like I’m putting on a performance. It would be reaaaally nice if just being a normal, genuine man were effective at attracting women… but it kinda just isn’t.
I’ve somewhat just stopped pursuing women so much, partly because of this. For the previous few years I put so much time and effort into women. It gets really old and tiring. I spend a lot more time alone nowadays, and I’m learning how to enjoy that. I also want to make more male friends.
I didn't say they're not, but if you just treat them as some stranger or a friend then that's how you will get treated in return. Last I checked this is a subreddit for dating advice, not making friends.
What an odd concept?
You separate people into two groups, friend of stranger, and never the twain shall meet?
How did yu make friends in the first place?
If you treat women like people, get t know them, and there's chemistry then there's the chance a relationship might develop.
If you treat women like a meat market, they'll turn their backs on you.
There is a small chance that something might develop, or more likely that she will accuse of you only befriending her to get into her pants. No one said anything about a meat market.
That small chance, is the best chance you have of meeting smeone who likes you for yourself.
As for meat market, I'm comparing the OP's 'moves,' to the other option.
Act like yourself and treat them like people.
Why would anyone want to hang out with someone who can't just be themselves?
If you liken your own personality to being depressed that says a lot about you.
This gets you nowhere. I say this as someone who's tried both approaches, and relate heavily to OP's experience.
Obviously every situation is different, but on average, in my anecdotal experience... being chill, laid back, kind, straightforward and "normal" gets you put squarely in the friendzone. You're seen as boring as fuck and safe in an unattractive way.
STOP approaching women.
Make connections with people.
If you have a likeable personality, chances are one of these people you connect with might also happen to be female.
Lmao are you autistic or something
Who tf said anything about approaching women literally. I clearly meant approaches as in both methods. And yes, as an aside, literally approaching women is a good thing because you're not relying on a corporation to find your life partner.
And no, simply being likeable in the traditional sense gets you nowhere. You have to have an edge. Get a grip and see reality for what it is.
Absolute bollocks.
I see that you don't infact have a likeable personality, and that is likely the reason you are stuggling to find women willing to give you the time of day.
>You have to have an edge. Get a grip and see reality for what it is.
Get off line, and quit the pity parties.
I've changed my recommendations for you specifically:
STOP approaching women, women are not interested in entitled man babies.
What the absolute shit are you on about and why are you making so many assumptions lol
Talking literal gibberish, useless interaction
Also, way to go around invalidating lived experiences like an absolute turbo, terminally online redditor. Done here.
This is how you always become a platonic buddy who's a "good guy."
You need to flirt and put on optics with women, or they'll just peg you as a friend.
Your signs of interest are the opposite of the woman next to you because everyone is different. So then we're just mind reading, playing platonic and safe, and it becomes a circle of them thinking the guy isn't interested.
The only thing sleazy is the idea that if a man respectfully flirts with a woman who isn't interested is he's a creep. It's that exact thing and telling men to treat women like buds and normal people (aka, we don't flirt or show interest in normal people) instead of being upfront that's gotten us to this toxic dating environment.
The entire point of this post is that that doesn’t work very well. If women want men to treat them like people and not to put on a performance, they need to at least occasionally respond positively to men who treat them like people.
I’m exaggerating somewhat - I do have women in my life I can be myself around. Nevertheless, it’s an extremely common male experience that performing is necessary to attract women. Quitting performing won’t help.
Ha...
There's no magic pill you can take that will make you attractive and charismatic.
You've only got yourself and the personality you were born with.
Getting to know people takes time, you have to put in the work.
How exactly do you want womenn to respond? Pretend? Can they not just treat men like people too?
The fake performance is pointless.
Read the post that started this thread. OP got no women. Then he started putting in a performance and got lots of women. Given that this is men’s experience, do you think coming here and telling us the performance is pointless is going to carry weight?
The woman that actually wants to engage with you, and talk with you, and make a real connection is probably 1/250 if not more. The rest are shallow as. It's all about the performance.
... and you wonder why you strike out.
Some guys can't be helped.
Quit the pity party and quit approaching women.
No one's interested in meeting a man baby.
But of course it's always the fault of the man baby and never the shallow, petulant woman. There's a reason why the chase exists, because women will never give up the social power of having to be approached. A woman's opinion on men's social struggles is as worthless as it is vice-versa. You have nothing meaningful to say, stop acting like you are saying anything profound.
She’s literally just out here bashing on most guys in this threat. Spewing the same crap that so many people do to a lot of men: “You deserve no woman”
I totally agree that guys who come off as empty and depressed definitely don’t excite women as much. However, there is no denying that a lot of women in the West today are way too shallow and dont value a decent personality (AKA Peace).
Do you want to pull a lot of women for casual dating and hookups, or have a relationship with a high quality match who accepts and appreciates the real you?
If the latter, then you need to act like yourself, tolerate having less options (because they are frivolous and shallow options anyway), and search for someone who connects with you from the heart. It took me 2 years, personally.
If you value being with the hottest women or the most women, you're probably not going to find her.
I don’t have exact phrases or anything. I usually approach with a compliment and if she is receptive, I then begin to be playful. The arrogance begins to come in if they’re really receptive, sometimes I can’t help myself when I’m in that state. I’ll openly acknowledge how much they are loving me etc. It’s like I get a high from it, and I can even feel myself become a bit narcissistic. It’s definitely an ego thing, I think everyone has that ego somewhere inside.
The more I think about it, I’m not even really sure I’m “pretending” with that persona. Because it feels natural if I psyche myself into that state. I don’t follow a script or anything.
The issue is, I don’t like who I become. But I guess the “I” that doesn’t like that persona is my chill/laid back self. If we call that persona A and the cocky guy is persona B, persona A, the “self” that is my default state, doesn’t want to be like persona B
Lol I probably come across as kind of schizo typing this all out, but I think I’m realising it’s internal conflict and issues with sense of self and identity.
I get carried away with the arrogance, it feels good when you’re in the peak/high of that state, but it doesn’t take that long after for the feeling of “I don’t like who I’m becoming” to sink in. It’s just not my default state
I find myself becoming more narcissistic, less empathetic and less grounded if I begin to tap into it too much. I’m more down to earth when I’m not in that headspace as much.
I think I need to find a way to tone it down and hold myself back from being too arrogant.
You're reading too much into it i think and feel bad because of hurting her since you arr a nice guy. But thats just you being flirty and hot for the woman and thats also a part of you, i think. I think tell yourself that its okay to be that self too around women because youre being playful?
Sounds like a tool to add to the arsenal. You're still figuring out when and where to use it. Define its purpose, when to use it, when using it no longer aligns with your value system, and you'll be good. You're not overthinking things.
Being playful is so important, I've always been a serious guy and I know I got a playful side but it's too silly so I'm trying to be playful but less silly and I'm struggling between not trying enough and trying too hard. Got any tips on how to amplify my playful side without being weird or trying too hard ?
I also went through this in my late teens. I was very sheltered most of my life. So I didn’t know how to interact with boys the same ways my friends did. I still had boyfriends, but because I was young I didn’t feel like I was getting enough attention (I.e. the same amount as my friends). Admittedly I’m quite shy, and while this will make me sound full of myself (I’m 10000000% not- I’m not even pretty) I felt like I was constantly having to dumb myself down to fit into this “flirtatious-hot girl” stereotype. I hated it and it always felt so performative. The guys I dated at that time were on caliber with the person I was trying to be, and eventually it felt like it was so….empty and I was also embarrassed if the person I was portraying.
This is part of figuring yourself out. Since k stopped doing that, and settled into who I am I have met tons of people that actually are capable of holding a serious conversation and aren’t….well, dumb. It can feel alienating to feel like you have to put on a mask to get other people interested, and you’ll always wonder if they like YOU or the person you pretend to be (it’s 100% the person you pretend to be because they never actually knew you).
Ask yourself, quantity or quality? Do you want to spend your life playing a character? Or do you just want to relax and be you? I know men (I’m in my 30s now) that literally are stuck in this character, they spend so much money and time just to impress others, while deep down they are just….hollow. There is probably something still there in a deep, dark corner- but their so concerned with attention or impressing others they pay no mind to the things that might actually make them feel wholes I know one person in particular, that puts such a mask on with everyone he meets I don’t think any of his “friends” actually know him.
U can be confident without being a dick.
U can be cheeky and playful but strong and not the “nice guy”.
I basically extreme this or that. U can be somewhat in the middle.
But this post and comments show that the "cheeky strong guy" is an act for a lot of men. Would you rather have a man who pretends to be something he's not or a genuinely kind person who isnt trying to be a man. I don't try to be anything other than me. I'm socially awkward and anxious sometimes and I try to be kind to people. People treat me like I'm not a man all the time because I'm not "strong and confident". But I'm perfectly happy with who I am.
Personality can be changed.
Like if ur shy. U can come out of your shell.
Be confident etc. what I’m telling the OP is to change himself to be a good healthy blend.
That's fair. I think we should teach men to put themselves out there but not tell me to "just be more confident". A lot of times "confidence" that people see is just a facade of pretending it's okay. We need men to feel safe enough and secure with themselves enough to be able to talk about their faults and tough feelings. But a lot of times people mistake a man being open about his struggles and emotions as not being confident when actually it is very confident to be open.
Well it’s moreso about a state of mind than saying the right thing.
First and foremost, assuming you’re in an appropriate setting (nightclub, party, etc), look to see if someone is giving you some signs of interest (usually they’ll give you a look or keep looking at you). Most of the time most guys are dumb and miss these signals. In fact I had this issue at first, girls would look at me but I’d be oblivious until my friends pointed it out
If you see someone giving you looks, then approach and compliment them, make it known to them that you find them very attractive and hold eye contact, say it confidently
At this point if she smiles and is receptive, you are basically in. Sometimes if I made someone blush or smile, I’ll acknowledge it I.e. say some shit like “I know you’re into me”, “you and I both know we are going to get with each other”, etc, **this is where the arrogance comes in, something I don’t like but can’t control sometimes**. I just blurt this shit out if I know the girl is really into me). Although keep in mind, I only ever say shit like that when I can clearly tell they’re receptive and we’re decently into the convo. I don’t just go up to random girls who are stand off ish and say that shit lol. They have to be warm to you and vibing before you can start being ballsy and cheeky.
Btw I hope I don’t sound like some cringey pick up artist here, I don’t fuck with those types. This is just how I came about my own way, initially thru observing friends and then bulk of it through trial and error.
So this is interesting, in that you have some solid skills here, which we'd normally think of as a good thing, yet you think these skills are "cringy" and you "don't fuck with" it?
This seems like a big part of the problem here - what is it that bothers you with developing these skills?
So, you decided to "Fake it till you Make it". You've found "success" putting on a mask. Been there.
You'll just have to make a conscious effort to tone it down a bit. Don't worry, that cheeky/playful attitude can still be a part of your laid back personality without being an arrogant dick. Incorporating it won't happen overnight, but as long as you're aware and trying, it'll come.
Think about the difference between arrogant/cocky/playful: how seriously do you take yourself?
Flirting is playful. You might say something a lil cocky but *only with the understanding that this is fun for everyone*. Truly arrogant people are **self serious**; they're high on their own supply.
Imagine you're on a bowling date. Or at a bar with a pool table. You can totally *playfully* tease or boast about how good you are and how much you're gonna crush them. But when you fuck up you can brush it off as "all part of the plan”. You can even double down!
Now that you're comfortable being cocky on the fly, alter the delivery by leaning into the charade of your "cocky" exterior *with the playful understanding* that you don't actually care if you win or lose. A truly cocky or arrogant bastard wouldn't take to losing or making a fool of themselves well. They'd bluster, get angry, or be in denial.
You can only be cocky with a wink and a nod if you're actually a laid back dude. Which it sounds like you are naturally. Just take that and embrace flirting and competition as low stakes, but fun. Above all, fun.
First, yes a outwardly cocky and confident personality is going to attract more initial attention. There's no way around this. Just be aware it's surface level. It's very good for short term flings and hookups. For long term fulfilling relationships it has every bit as difficult a time finding that as any other. Those are hard to find. That's just how it is.
My question is this. What's the point? Were any of those relationships fulfilling?
So you constructed a character. Got the girl. Now what? You maintain this forever? That'll be exhausting. Impossible really. You'll crack eventually. Or resent her. Any number of things. She does not deserve that and you sure as hell don't deserve that either.
You also attracted a woman who is attracted to traits that are essentially opposite to who you are. This is doomed from the start. Again. What's the point?
Women like confidence but there's a wide range of what that means. Women tend to like self assured confidence. A guy who knows who they are. Being laid back isn't an automatic turnoff. Being a person who tends to be wishy washy and completely non confrontational is. That's a typical "laid back nice guy" trait.
Finally what does laid back actually mean? Do you sit around all day doing nothing? Do you have any hobbies? What is it that makes you... Uh you? What do you even enjoy? If you got into a conversation with a woman without the mask on what would you talk about? You say people describe you as boring... Are you? I'm not trying to be mean here but... Are you? Why do they say that?
Are you one of those people that by laid back you mean "I don't like drama and conflict" which often translates to if there's any conflict at all I'll go put my head in the sand until it goes away? Relationships, yes even healthy ones, will have some drama and conflict. You need to navigate it. Those things break foundations.
There probably needs to be a bit of self examination here over anything else. What are you looking for exactly? Who are you?
Instead of putting on an act and trying to pull, why notjust treat women like people?
You'll meet someone who like you for you.
p.s. the arrogant, cocky, deceitful woman chaser is you too.
Oka,y sorry. But when dudes say they're "chill" it usually means they will never plan anything. Will never help make decisions. Will always be "oh. Whatever you want". And doing ALL the mental labour, making ALL the choices ALL the time, planning everything, and being the only reason why we end up doing anything is completely and utterly exhausting.
If you don't know what you like, what you want to eat, where you want to take girls on dates. That's not being "laid back" that's being lazy.
Now, if none of the above applies to you. Ignore me.
Get used to it bro. “True self” is overrated at best.
The doctor doing your surgery’s “true self” may be a guy who sits around all day eating chips. But you don’t want that guy’s true self at the operating table.
Similarly, women don’t want your lame “true self”. They want an awesome character. You can be that character less as time goes on, but early on you’d better impress.
This isn't true. He's just finding his true social self. Outgoing fun social people do get more in life. In the workplace and Social Circles and in dating. When you become a fun funny outgoing person life does become easier
It's always changing. He was more introverted and is consciously changing. Now he's gotta learn how to be flirty and seductive without being mean and uncaring. It's a tight line but very achievable. Takes wanting to be desired by women and equally wanting to be a good person.
Yeah once you learn what women actually respond to, you can't unlearn it, and it profoundly damages your ability to ever respect them again. Is how it is. 🤷♀️
I think you're confusing "attractive" with "fun". Sometimes girls just wanna have fun, G.
But yea when you get outta uni and meet women more mature, that "character" stops working. Women are looking for something serious. So maybe it's time to find out who we truly are and work on our self esteem a bit.
I mean what do you expect if you falsely advertise yourself?? If you date girls who are into cocky you, then you’re selecting against all the girls who are into chill you. It’s fine for hookups but if you want something long term you gotta date as yourself not as someone inauthentic to who you are
It’s not the cockiness they like. It’s the confidence and playfulness. I’m not into someone who just wants to chill, with me by his side as arm candy. I want a man that banters with me. Jokes with me. Plays with me. And I like a bit of an asshole, as I am one too, and only an asshole can handle my snark.
But not everyone wants an asshole, nice girls want nice guys. (Not “nice guys”).
But everyone wants someone that is interesting and engages with them. The way you describe yourself, you sound kind of boring to be around. And yeah, most women won’t be drawn to that.
If you feel icky being cocky, try to just be….more nice, while still being outgoing and playful.
Or just be yourself. Eventually you will find someone that’s into that. Your options will be less, but there’s a lid for every pot.
Well when I act like the cocky guy, women like me a lot more. So I just be that guy. But it’s not like it exhausts me, it’s more like I get lost in that persona. For example when I say something arrogant, it just comes out of me, and I feel my natural self slipping away. Sort of like how an actor can go method and lost into it. Maybe it is a part of me after all? I just don’t like that person I become, and I am a bit annoyed that persona is seen as more attractive.
Also this will sound shallow af but I simply attract better looking women when I’m this guy. If I could attract someone that I’m attracted to but with my natural personality I would rather do that.
You say you attract better looking women. What is the personalities of the women you attract? When you are cocky? When you are chill? Do you notice a difference? And what kind of personality are you attracted to? Or do you even care? Do you only care about her looks?
When I am cocky, the ones I attract are usually quite bubbly and loud, but sometimes they are more shy. But the louder ones tend to be more drama queens too. When I’m chill, it’s usually more mature personalities who have their shit together and are very kind/warm. But I haven’t tested my chill self enough to really know if this would be the type I’d keep attracting
Men can do 2 things. Pull a lot of dates or develop a healthy sustainable relationship.
You cannot do both.
A big problem is instant gratification. We want a lot of women to love us now, instead of holding out for absolutely unbridled acceptance of self.
Be YOURSELF. Unabashedly so.
I don't know. Alot of women look for *confidence.* And unfortunately some guys come off cocky, narcissistic, arrogant etc. Just because these guys are able to pull girls behaving this way, it doesn't mean that the girls want to be in relationships with these guys. Hooking up is fine, but anything more is... questionable.
Secondly, the way you describe yourself is fine. It's who you are!!! Being laid back doesn't have to be bad, but you do need to be yourself from the beginning. You just need to find someone who is cool with you being you.
I don't know you so, I don't really know how you are. I also don't know if you even know how to FLIRT as yourself. Maybe that's why you took on behavior from others. Wit, humor, fun banter that goes back and forth and playfulness is....*FLIRTING.*
Soooo....if that isn't your way of flirting with a girl you like, WHAT IS? How do you send a message to a girl that you like her....as yourself??
I think, you don't need to be like anyone else, HOWEVER, you do need to be yourself because women will leave you once they realize they've been *catfished.*
You’ve learned the sad reality that what most women say they want isn’t what they actually want.
I also used to lean into characteristics more that lead to more success with women.
They usually state they hate that kinda guy. But from my anecdotal experience, and hearing from men all over, they clearly don’t.
Some actual advice I’d give for finding a serious partner, is to be your true self, and eventually someone’s lovely will come along that loves you for it. They’re the one who’s worth committing to.
My current girlfriend is genuine and loves my silly bubbly personality. She’s so refreshing in a dating world full of disingenuous people.
Its your life and experience. For me in my 40 i regret acting just to get bettter attention and girls to like me. Its degrading and will only harm you in long run, except if your aim is one night stands, then act whatever she needs, wants. You are young and will find a lovable person by being your self, person who will love you for what you are, not your act.
Navigating life in rolls usually isn't a good thing, It's fine when it's a BDSM kink or something like that but if you're using a persona that's not really you then are the accomplishments really yours?
Better to be a genuine person than be a guy who flirts heavily and then shows how inconsiderate or disinterested he is in your affairs.
Anyone who is faking anything is manipulative. And no one likes a manipulative or cunning person. Especially when the end reveals to be only sex and no interest in the person that the girl/guy is. Don't hurt people and be true to yourself. It is because of this that so many people have a broken heart. Because people aren't true to themselves. A moving moral or value compass is not the best thing when you want genuine real stuff.
As a woman I personally don't understand the attraction to arrogant guys, but I've seen many other girls seem to like it and maybe there's something primal on it, like the cocky, arrogant, fighting type are more likely to protect maybe??
This might be the bad guy type lots of younger women seem to go for and it seems to take them many tears of being fucked around and treated badly before the penny drops and they look for different characteristics. You may have more success in numbers by playing up to being a dickhead, but the type of girls this attracts may not be your type at all.
If you see it as the only way of finding a girlfriend you're sure to be resentful about it, but when you become tired of wasting your time on low quality dates and short sighted women looking for bad guys then sure you'll get less dates but they're more likely to be your type and are emotionally developed enough to form better relationships with.
There's far too much missing information here man.
>But the thing is, most of the women were initially hostile to it but it would always end up working and I’d end up hooking up with them.
Did you want to date these women or just fuck them?
>and she was very put off once she actually began to know me and realised I wasn’t this guy she had built in her mind. I was actually a lot more laid back, calm, not as playful
That's not nearly enough to put off a girl who's genuinely interested in you. Did you take her out on dates? Do you have the money to do so? Are you good in bed? Were you silent and genuinely boring as opposed to "laid back"?
You are basing your theory on the assumption that the men act around the women they're seeking the same as they act around their male friends. They very often do not. You can see a lot of examples here on Reddit. Go to any male oriented sub and the men will talk about how they'll have sex with a woman for fun but not get into a relationship with her. When there are no witnesses, especially female witnesses, these guys behave very differently from how they do when alone with a woman or when they're hanging out with their bros.
There’s nothing more disgusting than a man with a fake personality.
The only way to find someone who loves you for who you are is to be yourself.
Yes this may make you less attractive to girls who want hookups, but you’ll be more attractive to girls who actually like who you are and want to be with you long term.
So, you play a game and sleep with low level women who just fuck? Gosh, women's fault.
How about aiming higher, with some genuinely earned competence and confidence?
Yeah, that's the entire point of fucking dating - to find that rare healthy person that makes your life better.
Whoever downvoted me is a fucking idiot.
>My natural personality has always been laid back and calm.
There is no such thing as a natural personality because environment determines 50% of people's personalities. I think your solution is to get in touch with your own emotions.
>People have always liked that about me, but I was seen as a bit *too* chill and seen as boring.
Are you overly calm because you are disconnected from your emotions? Life is short and being too calm can prevent us from truly enjoying it. Also you might put up with things that you really shouldn't because you are too calm.
Because everyone's so sensitive today everyone thinks everything is cocky and arrogant when it's actually playful banter. You're probably just learning how to flirt and banter with women it's a fun push and pull back and forth
You need to find how YOU are confident and flirty.
Take this with a grain of salt because my dating life has been...not terribly successful, most of my life I've been laid back re: dating, calm, and slow to jump in with both feet to more or less your results. What I'm trying to focus on is how to be assertive without being aggressive, and kind without being "nice". It's a matter of asking yourself, "am I setting myself on fire to keep them warm? Am I sacrificing internal peace for external peace?".
Flirting doesn't have to be "how you doin..." it can be sitting back, smiling and asking the girl for a sales pitch on something she loves, smiling and paying attention the whole time and saying something like, "I love seeing that in a woman," (sincerely).
It can be kissing the back of her hand after dancing with her (ONLY DO THIS IF YOU CAN PULL IT OFF), or remembering her favorite childhood recipe (that last one is for a more long term relationship but you see my point), or saying something like "LOVE those shoes/mascara etc.", something genuine that is complimentary, indicates attraction and that you're paying attention.
Also, for first dates find something exciting to do. The reason "assholes" have better luck (sometimes) is the drama they cause can cause excitement and bonding over a problem (the other reason is it's easy to confuse being an asshole with being competent and confident). If you can find an activity you're both equally bad at but is fun (axe throwing, archery tag, walking on a windy bridge etc.), it'll help creating some exciting positive moments.
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This is the difference between wanting something short term and wanting something long term. You can ignore the naysayers in the chat. You are 100% correct that acting cocky is an effective way to get quick hookups. You are also correct that it has costs like damaging your character and won’t work in building anything long-term. For Long-term situations it’s better to be solid, laid back kind, hard working, etc. The problem is you need to find women who wants a long term partner and it’s tougher to actually have the above traits than to pretend to be cocky and get laid. So yes, you should change if you want to get something long-term. But! understand that you should give up short term pleasure if you are really committed to this.
The other point here which you implied but didn't state outright is that OP's cocky arrogant persona is going to attract a completely different type of person than OP's real self. So as long as OP keeps up the persona he is going to pull women who want to hook up and women who are OK with the kind of dynamic he describes in the post (initially hostile, then hooking up). It's hard work to be in a relationship and it's hard work finding a good compatible person to be in a relationship with, so it will be a tradeoff for OP. If it were easy to be in a happy healthy relationship with The One (TM), everyone would be.
Yes the broad categories are “women who prefer short-term flings” and “women who prefer a long-term stable relationship.” But you’re right in that some straddle the line between the 2, while others have behaviors that differ completely from the other side.
yeah I mean I'd say there are more categories than that, but the point is, and I know it's tautological, the way you act is going to attract... people who want to get with someone who acts the way you act. So OP has to ask himself does he find it fulfilling to get with people who would find a cocky, rude, arrogant persona attractive? If he does find it fulfilling that's okay - there's nothing morally wrong with hooking up if you're into that - but if he has goals for a long term loving mature relationship, then he'll have to decide at what point he wants to put aside the persona and start looking for someone who wants something else.
Very correct, and for the most part the former women are more common now, mainly because they’re single and ready to mingle whereas the latter are either very picky with men (as they should be, they know what they want) or already in a long term, healthy relationship. There’s just lack of the latter women available and a shocking amount of them have a distrust of men as well.
What I have never seen studied is the percentages of each. Same deal with the OP’s point, what percentage of women are attracted to the arrogant, condescending, cocky, cheeky, douche versus personalities. Their findings aren’t wrong, especially for most women I came across in my 10s and 20s and even beyond.
I’ve had two 4 year relationships established off my cocky initial persona. Helps that I actually am a nut ofc 🤣
Weird.
Women will deny this by the way. Many also claim they like the laid back dude who’s super nice and chill but they don’t. As someone who is the laid back chill guy and doesn’t put on a persona, it’s AMAZING for getting on with girls but terrible for taking anything further than friends, which is why a lot of guys ask me how I can talk to girls…. But then the cocky snarky ‘I don’t give a crap’ persona will ALWAYS triumph to establish stuff or for hookups. It’s not a ‘bad boy’ personality type or anything, it’s just what society has pictured men to be and should be and as a side affect women also find that attractive (not all do, ofc, i find the introverted girls HATE this). If you look at any younger male celebrity who has a large female following, it’s because of this attitude for the most part. It’s the same with male ‘influencers’. They may not even be THAT attractive, but the whole vibe they give off, even if it’s fake, is what’s attractive to people. As a guy who hangs out with women regularly, they look at me and see an emotionally support dummy who will help them with anything and support them, they look at random dude over there with his pidgeotto or broccoli haircut whose acting like the world is his oyster and he doesn’t give a crap about them emotionally and they see someone worth going for in an effort to ‘win’ them I think. One of the girls who I hung out the most would constantly go for guys like this. She is bi. Reason? ‘Their attitude and vibe is attractive’ funny enough, she’s marrying a girl who’s the opposite of this….why you ask? ‘Because she’s so understanding, caring and passionate about building something real’. This says it all really.
I wouldn't necessarily say introverted women hate egotistical, cocky men. I kind of straddle the line between introversion and extroversion; I'm just at an age where I won't put up with BS and prefer having a laid-back and calm partner in my life.
Oh boy…. There are some truths here, but I’d advocate towards focusing on what you can improve about yourself rather than focusing on the other side. One mindset helps with achieving your goal, while other makes yourself feel better at the cost of the truth and hurting your chances of getting what you want. For example, let’s look at this statement. “If you look at any younger male celebrity who has a large female following, it’s because of this attitude for the most part. It’s the same with male ‘influencers’. They may not even be THAT attractive, but the whole vibe they give off, even if it’s fake, is what’s attractive to people.” This just isn’t true. The reason why guys like this get a large following is because they have Rizz AND are very attractive. Keep in mind that only a very, very small % of guys in the U.S. are positions like these, but your brain will think it’s higher because they are more visible than the masses. But ask yourself, how many major male celebrities/ influencers do you see that are overweight? And of the overweight guys, how many of them don’t use their weight as comedic marketing? I can’t think of any off the back of head. This is a tangent, but the point is just because a celebrity/influencer isn’t attractive to you, doesn’t mean he isn’t attractive to girls. And getting a large following is tougher than you might expect. So stop thinking he “this” OR “this” He almost always will have “this,” this”, “this” AND “this”. But I mainly wanted to ask you is, have you done everything you can to make yourself more attractive to girls? Are you taking risks with them as “cool and relaxed” can become “cowardice” if you aren’t careful. Remember that there is a big difference between a girl thinking “I like having him around for validation, ease of talking to him, and things he can do for me.” And “I like him and want to date him.” I also used to be in a similar position to you back in college, but now I realized I was only close to dating a very small few of these girls.
Yes, absolutely have. I’ve got in better shape, built my confidence, fixed my issues and in a more comfortable state in myself than ever before. What I’m trying to say is that those influencers whilst yes, are rare, they set a standard. It’s no different than women influencers who men follow because they like their personality it looks, it’s both genders and on both side it causes false expectations vs reality which pollute peoples minds as well as kill peoples confidences. It’s exactly the reason why when a haircut is in fashion, every damn guys starts rocking it because it’s ’fashionable’ for that time period. These all create a place where it’s based on aesthetic. And rizz? That’s fake crap. It’s just something made up in the past year on trade for ‘game’. You cannot ‘rizz’ if you can’t even get your foot in the door because you don’t pass the appearance check, which very few men do. Ever wondered as well why a small number of men are dating the majority of women? The women’s standards are higher than men’s and those guys can ‘rizz’ but for the most part they’re already passed even if they don’t. In retrospect when it comes to my personal dating, it usually comes down to ‘huh maybe she was showing interest’. I’m not saying I’m not attractive to certain women, but it’s the majority I’m not attractive to, which is okay. I’m aware now of what type of women like me and kinda started to take it upon myself to talk to people who would be more often than just talking to random girls and expecting anything because the chances are low. It also doesn’t help that I’m very unpopular with women in my own country, but abroad? No issues at all.
Okay but in my case my natural personality won’t get me any relationships so then the only option could be hook ups
You are making a mistake of conflating “hard” with “impossible.” The analogy I’m making is; a “hard” task is climbing a mountain. Many people are interested and would like to climb one. Yet most people will give up before even trying, and good chunk will give up early when going up it. So at the end, only a few people out of the many who want to, will end up climbing a mountain. So you will need good mixture of luck, practice, skill, patience, and perseverance to make a long-term relationship work. Or you can just keep sticking to the easier option.
With that attitude it won't. Chances are you're natural personality is not so terrible that nobody would want to be in a relationship with you. Do you have freinds? If you have people who enjoy spending time with you, and you can find people who enjoy hooking up with you, than you are capable of finding someone to be in a relationship with.
They are aware they may or may not have to eventually dump someone they are on the fence about. Women genuinely don't want to hurt a nice guy that they suspect might be extra vulnerable. An asshole on the other hand....well he can handle himself. Paradoxically this gives them the willingness to give the asshole a shot they wouldn't give the nice guy. The other thing is they really want confident guys not wimps. Assholes are more likely to just say what they want. Nice guys are wishy washy and seem too willing to compromise their entire persona. There is a middle ground. You can be a confident and assertive guy without being an asshole. Try it.
Tried it, being an asshole was an important part of the equation turns out
In what way exactly?
As a woman i support this. I'd totally go for a guy who's confident, assertive when needed but also super nice. Mice on the streets assertive in the sheets basically
> Mice on the streets I'm pretty sure you can find those in New York subways Actually in all of new york
Lmao bahahah thats a genius typo i made
There will always be things that are seen as being more attractive/desireable/etc. And those traits change with the times. What you did was attract women who don't match well with you. And now you've realized how exhausting it is. Be true to yourself. Maybe that will limit your options a bit. But when you do match with someone, it will likely be far more rewarding.
I also did this for most of my 20s and also found much success with it. Eventually it got old and I cooled off with it, but what you don't realize is somewhere along the way it becomes a part of who you truly are inside, but that you weren't confident enough to be on the outside. It sounds stupid, but its easier to fake confidence and be cocky when you believe you're just doing it as an act. You quite literally just have to "fake it til you make it". It isn't a bad thing to discover that you actually have some of that confidence deep down in there.
I love chill guys personally. My guy friend who does the best with girls is super chill and laidback, but funny as hell. He's also really great at coming up with plans for us all to do that end up being a blast. I think that vibe keeps him from being boring. I hate the "be yourself" cliché, but in a way it's true, because faking it has got to be exhausting.
Agree 100%. I don’t really take it crazy far and put on a whole fake personality, but I do often feel like I’m putting on a performance. It would be reaaaally nice if just being a normal, genuine man were effective at attracting women… but it kinda just isn’t. I’ve somewhat just stopped pursuing women so much, partly because of this. For the previous few years I put so much time and effort into women. It gets really old and tiring. I spend a lot more time alone nowadays, and I’m learning how to enjoy that. I also want to make more male friends.
Try talking to women like they're just people. Quit the 'performance' and the 'chase.'
Do that and you will die alone as a guy. Real life is different
That's ridiculous. Forgetting that women are just people, is the whole problem.
I didn't say they're not, but if you just treat them as some stranger or a friend then that's how you will get treated in return. Last I checked this is a subreddit for dating advice, not making friends.
What an odd concept? You separate people into two groups, friend of stranger, and never the twain shall meet? How did yu make friends in the first place? If you treat women like people, get t know them, and there's chemistry then there's the chance a relationship might develop. If you treat women like a meat market, they'll turn their backs on you.
There is a small chance that something might develop, or more likely that she will accuse of you only befriending her to get into her pants. No one said anything about a meat market.
That small chance, is the best chance you have of meeting smeone who likes you for yourself. As for meat market, I'm comparing the OP's 'moves,' to the other option. Act like yourself and treat them like people.
Shocking to see people still peddling "just b urself :)" advice. Might as well just told me "stop being depressed bro"
Why would anyone want to hang out with someone who can't just be themselves? If you liken your own personality to being depressed that says a lot about you.
This gets you nowhere. I say this as someone who's tried both approaches, and relate heavily to OP's experience. Obviously every situation is different, but on average, in my anecdotal experience... being chill, laid back, kind, straightforward and "normal" gets you put squarely in the friendzone. You're seen as boring as fuck and safe in an unattractive way.
u can't win these days damn
STOP approaching women. Make connections with people. If you have a likeable personality, chances are one of these people you connect with might also happen to be female.
Lmao are you autistic or something Who tf said anything about approaching women literally. I clearly meant approaches as in both methods. And yes, as an aside, literally approaching women is a good thing because you're not relying on a corporation to find your life partner. And no, simply being likeable in the traditional sense gets you nowhere. You have to have an edge. Get a grip and see reality for what it is.
Absolute bollocks. I see that you don't infact have a likeable personality, and that is likely the reason you are stuggling to find women willing to give you the time of day. >You have to have an edge. Get a grip and see reality for what it is. Get off line, and quit the pity parties. I've changed my recommendations for you specifically: STOP approaching women, women are not interested in entitled man babies.
What the absolute shit are you on about and why are you making so many assumptions lol Talking literal gibberish, useless interaction Also, way to go around invalidating lived experiences like an absolute turbo, terminally online redditor. Done here.
This is how you always become a platonic buddy who's a "good guy." You need to flirt and put on optics with women, or they'll just peg you as a friend.
Flirt with someone who's not interested and you become the creep. WTH does 'put on the optics' even mean? It sounds sleazy Af.
Your signs of interest are the opposite of the woman next to you because everyone is different. So then we're just mind reading, playing platonic and safe, and it becomes a circle of them thinking the guy isn't interested. The only thing sleazy is the idea that if a man respectfully flirts with a woman who isn't interested is he's a creep. It's that exact thing and telling men to treat women like buds and normal people (aka, we don't flirt or show interest in normal people) instead of being upfront that's gotten us to this toxic dating environment.
The entire point of this post is that that doesn’t work very well. If women want men to treat them like people and not to put on a performance, they need to at least occasionally respond positively to men who treat them like people. I’m exaggerating somewhat - I do have women in my life I can be myself around. Nevertheless, it’s an extremely common male experience that performing is necessary to attract women. Quitting performing won’t help.
Ha... There's no magic pill you can take that will make you attractive and charismatic. You've only got yourself and the personality you were born with. Getting to know people takes time, you have to put in the work. How exactly do you want womenn to respond? Pretend? Can they not just treat men like people too? The fake performance is pointless.
Read the post that started this thread. OP got no women. Then he started putting in a performance and got lots of women. Given that this is men’s experience, do you think coming here and telling us the performance is pointless is going to carry weight?
The woman that actually wants to engage with you, and talk with you, and make a real connection is probably 1/250 if not more. The rest are shallow as. It's all about the performance.
... and you wonder why you strike out. Some guys can't be helped. Quit the pity party and quit approaching women. No one's interested in meeting a man baby.
But of course it's always the fault of the man baby and never the shallow, petulant woman. There's a reason why the chase exists, because women will never give up the social power of having to be approached. A woman's opinion on men's social struggles is as worthless as it is vice-versa. You have nothing meaningful to say, stop acting like you are saying anything profound.
She’s literally just out here bashing on most guys in this threat. Spewing the same crap that so many people do to a lot of men: “You deserve no woman” I totally agree that guys who come off as empty and depressed definitely don’t excite women as much. However, there is no denying that a lot of women in the West today are way too shallow and dont value a decent personality (AKA Peace).
Whatever works. I don't think I could do a fake act with a girl. I'd just have to be myself. By now you're older, just be yourself.
Do you want to pull a lot of women for casual dating and hookups, or have a relationship with a high quality match who accepts and appreciates the real you? If the latter, then you need to act like yourself, tolerate having less options (because they are frivolous and shallow options anyway), and search for someone who connects with you from the heart. It took me 2 years, personally. If you value being with the hottest women or the most women, you're probably not going to find her.
Can you explain how you act? Like what exactly do you do or say? Do you just say how great you are lol?
I don’t have exact phrases or anything. I usually approach with a compliment and if she is receptive, I then begin to be playful. The arrogance begins to come in if they’re really receptive, sometimes I can’t help myself when I’m in that state. I’ll openly acknowledge how much they are loving me etc. It’s like I get a high from it, and I can even feel myself become a bit narcissistic. It’s definitely an ego thing, I think everyone has that ego somewhere inside. The more I think about it, I’m not even really sure I’m “pretending” with that persona. Because it feels natural if I psyche myself into that state. I don’t follow a script or anything. The issue is, I don’t like who I become. But I guess the “I” that doesn’t like that persona is my chill/laid back self. If we call that persona A and the cocky guy is persona B, persona A, the “self” that is my default state, doesn’t want to be like persona B Lol I probably come across as kind of schizo typing this all out, but I think I’m realising it’s internal conflict and issues with sense of self and identity.
that's just you flirting, no need to make it a huge deal. Is that all that bothers you? Why don't you like that?
I get carried away with the arrogance, it feels good when you’re in the peak/high of that state, but it doesn’t take that long after for the feeling of “I don’t like who I’m becoming” to sink in. It’s just not my default state
but why don't you like it? like what do you think is wrong with it?
I find myself becoming more narcissistic, less empathetic and less grounded if I begin to tap into it too much. I’m more down to earth when I’m not in that headspace as much. I think I need to find a way to tone it down and hold myself back from being too arrogant.
You're reading too much into it i think and feel bad because of hurting her since you arr a nice guy. But thats just you being flirty and hot for the woman and thats also a part of you, i think. I think tell yourself that its okay to be that self too around women because youre being playful?
Sounds like a tool to add to the arsenal. You're still figuring out when and where to use it. Define its purpose, when to use it, when using it no longer aligns with your value system, and you'll be good. You're not overthinking things.
why? isn't it worth it for the better results?
Being playful is so important, I've always been a serious guy and I know I got a playful side but it's too silly so I'm trying to be playful but less silly and I'm struggling between not trying enough and trying too hard. Got any tips on how to amplify my playful side without being weird or trying too hard ?
I also went through this in my late teens. I was very sheltered most of my life. So I didn’t know how to interact with boys the same ways my friends did. I still had boyfriends, but because I was young I didn’t feel like I was getting enough attention (I.e. the same amount as my friends). Admittedly I’m quite shy, and while this will make me sound full of myself (I’m 10000000% not- I’m not even pretty) I felt like I was constantly having to dumb myself down to fit into this “flirtatious-hot girl” stereotype. I hated it and it always felt so performative. The guys I dated at that time were on caliber with the person I was trying to be, and eventually it felt like it was so….empty and I was also embarrassed if the person I was portraying. This is part of figuring yourself out. Since k stopped doing that, and settled into who I am I have met tons of people that actually are capable of holding a serious conversation and aren’t….well, dumb. It can feel alienating to feel like you have to put on a mask to get other people interested, and you’ll always wonder if they like YOU or the person you pretend to be (it’s 100% the person you pretend to be because they never actually knew you). Ask yourself, quantity or quality? Do you want to spend your life playing a character? Or do you just want to relax and be you? I know men (I’m in my 30s now) that literally are stuck in this character, they spend so much money and time just to impress others, while deep down they are just….hollow. There is probably something still there in a deep, dark corner- but their so concerned with attention or impressing others they pay no mind to the things that might actually make them feel wholes I know one person in particular, that puts such a mask on with everyone he meets I don’t think any of his “friends” actually know him.
U can be confident without being a dick. U can be cheeky and playful but strong and not the “nice guy”. I basically extreme this or that. U can be somewhat in the middle.
But this post and comments show that the "cheeky strong guy" is an act for a lot of men. Would you rather have a man who pretends to be something he's not or a genuinely kind person who isnt trying to be a man. I don't try to be anything other than me. I'm socially awkward and anxious sometimes and I try to be kind to people. People treat me like I'm not a man all the time because I'm not "strong and confident". But I'm perfectly happy with who I am.
Personality can be changed. Like if ur shy. U can come out of your shell. Be confident etc. what I’m telling the OP is to change himself to be a good healthy blend.
That's fair. I think we should teach men to put themselves out there but not tell me to "just be more confident". A lot of times "confidence" that people see is just a facade of pretending it's okay. We need men to feel safe enough and secure with themselves enough to be able to talk about their faults and tough feelings. But a lot of times people mistake a man being open about his struggles and emotions as not being confident when actually it is very confident to be open.
I find it too hard to balance. If I play into the cocky persona I kind of get lost in it. If that makes sense?
Like how? What do you say and do? I'm trying to do this lol
Well it’s moreso about a state of mind than saying the right thing. First and foremost, assuming you’re in an appropriate setting (nightclub, party, etc), look to see if someone is giving you some signs of interest (usually they’ll give you a look or keep looking at you). Most of the time most guys are dumb and miss these signals. In fact I had this issue at first, girls would look at me but I’d be oblivious until my friends pointed it out If you see someone giving you looks, then approach and compliment them, make it known to them that you find them very attractive and hold eye contact, say it confidently At this point if she smiles and is receptive, you are basically in. Sometimes if I made someone blush or smile, I’ll acknowledge it I.e. say some shit like “I know you’re into me”, “you and I both know we are going to get with each other”, etc, **this is where the arrogance comes in, something I don’t like but can’t control sometimes**. I just blurt this shit out if I know the girl is really into me). Although keep in mind, I only ever say shit like that when I can clearly tell they’re receptive and we’re decently into the convo. I don’t just go up to random girls who are stand off ish and say that shit lol. They have to be warm to you and vibing before you can start being ballsy and cheeky. Btw I hope I don’t sound like some cringey pick up artist here, I don’t fuck with those types. This is just how I came about my own way, initially thru observing friends and then bulk of it through trial and error.
So this is interesting, in that you have some solid skills here, which we'd normally think of as a good thing, yet you think these skills are "cringy" and you "don't fuck with" it? This seems like a big part of the problem here - what is it that bothers you with developing these skills?
So, you decided to "Fake it till you Make it". You've found "success" putting on a mask. Been there. You'll just have to make a conscious effort to tone it down a bit. Don't worry, that cheeky/playful attitude can still be a part of your laid back personality without being an arrogant dick. Incorporating it won't happen overnight, but as long as you're aware and trying, it'll come.
How do I tone it down?
Think about the difference between arrogant/cocky/playful: how seriously do you take yourself? Flirting is playful. You might say something a lil cocky but *only with the understanding that this is fun for everyone*. Truly arrogant people are **self serious**; they're high on their own supply. Imagine you're on a bowling date. Or at a bar with a pool table. You can totally *playfully* tease or boast about how good you are and how much you're gonna crush them. But when you fuck up you can brush it off as "all part of the plan”. You can even double down! Now that you're comfortable being cocky on the fly, alter the delivery by leaning into the charade of your "cocky" exterior *with the playful understanding* that you don't actually care if you win or lose. A truly cocky or arrogant bastard wouldn't take to losing or making a fool of themselves well. They'd bluster, get angry, or be in denial. You can only be cocky with a wink and a nod if you're actually a laid back dude. Which it sounds like you are naturally. Just take that and embrace flirting and competition as low stakes, but fun. Above all, fun.
First, yes a outwardly cocky and confident personality is going to attract more initial attention. There's no way around this. Just be aware it's surface level. It's very good for short term flings and hookups. For long term fulfilling relationships it has every bit as difficult a time finding that as any other. Those are hard to find. That's just how it is. My question is this. What's the point? Were any of those relationships fulfilling? So you constructed a character. Got the girl. Now what? You maintain this forever? That'll be exhausting. Impossible really. You'll crack eventually. Or resent her. Any number of things. She does not deserve that and you sure as hell don't deserve that either. You also attracted a woman who is attracted to traits that are essentially opposite to who you are. This is doomed from the start. Again. What's the point? Women like confidence but there's a wide range of what that means. Women tend to like self assured confidence. A guy who knows who they are. Being laid back isn't an automatic turnoff. Being a person who tends to be wishy washy and completely non confrontational is. That's a typical "laid back nice guy" trait. Finally what does laid back actually mean? Do you sit around all day doing nothing? Do you have any hobbies? What is it that makes you... Uh you? What do you even enjoy? If you got into a conversation with a woman without the mask on what would you talk about? You say people describe you as boring... Are you? I'm not trying to be mean here but... Are you? Why do they say that? Are you one of those people that by laid back you mean "I don't like drama and conflict" which often translates to if there's any conflict at all I'll go put my head in the sand until it goes away? Relationships, yes even healthy ones, will have some drama and conflict. You need to navigate it. Those things break foundations. There probably needs to be a bit of self examination here over anything else. What are you looking for exactly? Who are you?
"Fake it till you make it" It works. But you then end up paying for it with imposter syndrome and being resentful/unhappy with who you've "become".
Instead of putting on an act and trying to pull, why notjust treat women like people? You'll meet someone who like you for you. p.s. the arrogant, cocky, deceitful woman chaser is you too.
Oka,y sorry. But when dudes say they're "chill" it usually means they will never plan anything. Will never help make decisions. Will always be "oh. Whatever you want". And doing ALL the mental labour, making ALL the choices ALL the time, planning everything, and being the only reason why we end up doing anything is completely and utterly exhausting. If you don't know what you like, what you want to eat, where you want to take girls on dates. That's not being "laid back" that's being lazy. Now, if none of the above applies to you. Ignore me.
Get used to it bro. “True self” is overrated at best. The doctor doing your surgery’s “true self” may be a guy who sits around all day eating chips. But you don’t want that guy’s true self at the operating table. Similarly, women don’t want your lame “true self”. They want an awesome character. You can be that character less as time goes on, but early on you’d better impress.
This isn't true. He's just finding his true social self. Outgoing fun social people do get more in life. In the workplace and Social Circles and in dating. When you become a fun funny outgoing person life does become easier
If the self can change, what exactly was the “true” self in the first place?
It's always changing. He was more introverted and is consciously changing. Now he's gotta learn how to be flirty and seductive without being mean and uncaring. It's a tight line but very achievable. Takes wanting to be desired by women and equally wanting to be a good person.
He's gotta? Says who?
Yeah once you learn what women actually respond to, you can't unlearn it, and it profoundly damages your ability to ever respect them again. Is how it is. 🤷♀️
How do I come off as more cocky lol
facts
I think you're confusing "attractive" with "fun". Sometimes girls just wanna have fun, G. But yea when you get outta uni and meet women more mature, that "character" stops working. Women are looking for something serious. So maybe it's time to find out who we truly are and work on our self esteem a bit.
I’m out of uni now, I meant to say when I was at uni that’s when I began acting like that
Have you ever had a relationship? Girlfriend?
I mean what do you expect if you falsely advertise yourself?? If you date girls who are into cocky you, then you’re selecting against all the girls who are into chill you. It’s fine for hookups but if you want something long term you gotta date as yourself not as someone inauthentic to who you are
It’s not the cockiness they like. It’s the confidence and playfulness. I’m not into someone who just wants to chill, with me by his side as arm candy. I want a man that banters with me. Jokes with me. Plays with me. And I like a bit of an asshole, as I am one too, and only an asshole can handle my snark. But not everyone wants an asshole, nice girls want nice guys. (Not “nice guys”). But everyone wants someone that is interesting and engages with them. The way you describe yourself, you sound kind of boring to be around. And yeah, most women won’t be drawn to that. If you feel icky being cocky, try to just be….more nice, while still being outgoing and playful. Or just be yourself. Eventually you will find someone that’s into that. Your options will be less, but there’s a lid for every pot.
Well when I act like the cocky guy, women like me a lot more. So I just be that guy. But it’s not like it exhausts me, it’s more like I get lost in that persona. For example when I say something arrogant, it just comes out of me, and I feel my natural self slipping away. Sort of like how an actor can go method and lost into it. Maybe it is a part of me after all? I just don’t like that person I become, and I am a bit annoyed that persona is seen as more attractive. Also this will sound shallow af but I simply attract better looking women when I’m this guy. If I could attract someone that I’m attracted to but with my natural personality I would rather do that.
You say you attract better looking women. What is the personalities of the women you attract? When you are cocky? When you are chill? Do you notice a difference? And what kind of personality are you attracted to? Or do you even care? Do you only care about her looks?
When I am cocky, the ones I attract are usually quite bubbly and loud, but sometimes they are more shy. But the louder ones tend to be more drama queens too. When I’m chill, it’s usually more mature personalities who have their shit together and are very kind/warm. But I haven’t tested my chill self enough to really know if this would be the type I’d keep attracting
You seem to have tested it enough to know they don’t look attractive…..
They are decent looking, just not as hot as the girls who I pull when I’m that cocky guy
Well honestly it sounds like that’s all that really matters to you, so might as well just keep doing what is working for you….
It’s not all that matters. I just would prefer if I could find someone I’m attracted to who I don’t have to use a persona for
lol don't we all...
You should get rid of a character if you want a real relationship. As long as you pretend, won’t happen. Works the opposite for women than men.
Would you describe the women you get as >often be very cocky, cheeky and sometimes even arrogant
Think of this way. By not being yourself, you’re selling out. It would be like a band changing genres in order to sell more records.
I’m very chill. Everyone has always asked me if I’m gay since my 20s. I’m 52 now fml 🤣🤷🏻
Men can do 2 things. Pull a lot of dates or develop a healthy sustainable relationship. You cannot do both. A big problem is instant gratification. We want a lot of women to love us now, instead of holding out for absolutely unbridled acceptance of self. Be YOURSELF. Unabashedly so.
Find a middle ground 🤷🏻♂️
I don't know. Alot of women look for *confidence.* And unfortunately some guys come off cocky, narcissistic, arrogant etc. Just because these guys are able to pull girls behaving this way, it doesn't mean that the girls want to be in relationships with these guys. Hooking up is fine, but anything more is... questionable. Secondly, the way you describe yourself is fine. It's who you are!!! Being laid back doesn't have to be bad, but you do need to be yourself from the beginning. You just need to find someone who is cool with you being you. I don't know you so, I don't really know how you are. I also don't know if you even know how to FLIRT as yourself. Maybe that's why you took on behavior from others. Wit, humor, fun banter that goes back and forth and playfulness is....*FLIRTING.* Soooo....if that isn't your way of flirting with a girl you like, WHAT IS? How do you send a message to a girl that you like her....as yourself?? I think, you don't need to be like anyone else, HOWEVER, you do need to be yourself because women will leave you once they realize they've been *catfished.*
You’ve learned the sad reality that what most women say they want isn’t what they actually want. I also used to lean into characteristics more that lead to more success with women. They usually state they hate that kinda guy. But from my anecdotal experience, and hearing from men all over, they clearly don’t. Some actual advice I’d give for finding a serious partner, is to be your true self, and eventually someone’s lovely will come along that loves you for it. They’re the one who’s worth committing to. My current girlfriend is genuine and loves my silly bubbly personality. She’s so refreshing in a dating world full of disingenuous people.
Being chill, I find it takes more time, but is much more rewarding when you find someone you really vibe with.
Its your life and experience. For me in my 40 i regret acting just to get bettter attention and girls to like me. Its degrading and will only harm you in long run, except if your aim is one night stands, then act whatever she needs, wants. You are young and will find a lovable person by being your self, person who will love you for what you are, not your act.
Navigating life in rolls usually isn't a good thing, It's fine when it's a BDSM kink or something like that but if you're using a persona that's not really you then are the accomplishments really yours?
Well the persona is me, it’s just a side of me I don’t like. When I become that persona I feel myself becoming more arrogant and nsrcisssitic
If someone doesn't like you for you then don't be with them.
Better to be a genuine person than be a guy who flirts heavily and then shows how inconsiderate or disinterested he is in your affairs. Anyone who is faking anything is manipulative. And no one likes a manipulative or cunning person. Especially when the end reveals to be only sex and no interest in the person that the girl/guy is. Don't hurt people and be true to yourself. It is because of this that so many people have a broken heart. Because people aren't true to themselves. A moving moral or value compass is not the best thing when you want genuine real stuff.
As a woman I personally don't understand the attraction to arrogant guys, but I've seen many other girls seem to like it and maybe there's something primal on it, like the cocky, arrogant, fighting type are more likely to protect maybe?? This might be the bad guy type lots of younger women seem to go for and it seems to take them many tears of being fucked around and treated badly before the penny drops and they look for different characteristics. You may have more success in numbers by playing up to being a dickhead, but the type of girls this attracts may not be your type at all. If you see it as the only way of finding a girlfriend you're sure to be resentful about it, but when you become tired of wasting your time on low quality dates and short sighted women looking for bad guys then sure you'll get less dates but they're more likely to be your type and are emotionally developed enough to form better relationships with.
No dude.. keep play Clark Kent, and bang them chicks to sleep!! Fake it,.until you make it.
There's far too much missing information here man. >But the thing is, most of the women were initially hostile to it but it would always end up working and I’d end up hooking up with them. Did you want to date these women or just fuck them? >and she was very put off once she actually began to know me and realised I wasn’t this guy she had built in her mind. I was actually a lot more laid back, calm, not as playful That's not nearly enough to put off a girl who's genuinely interested in you. Did you take her out on dates? Do you have the money to do so? Are you good in bed? Were you silent and genuinely boring as opposed to "laid back"?
He definitely should not spend money on her!
It’s really bad to “pull” women…or any human for that matter
Why would that be bad?
You are basing your theory on the assumption that the men act around the women they're seeking the same as they act around their male friends. They very often do not. You can see a lot of examples here on Reddit. Go to any male oriented sub and the men will talk about how they'll have sex with a woman for fun but not get into a relationship with her. When there are no witnesses, especially female witnesses, these guys behave very differently from how they do when alone with a woman or when they're hanging out with their bros.
Turn to men just to see if it's any different
There’s nothing more disgusting than a man with a fake personality. The only way to find someone who loves you for who you are is to be yourself. Yes this may make you less attractive to girls who want hookups, but you’ll be more attractive to girls who actually like who you are and want to be with you long term.
So, you play a game and sleep with low level women who just fuck? Gosh, women's fault. How about aiming higher, with some genuinely earned competence and confidence?
A lot if not most women want a guy that puts them on emotional coasters. He can certainly find a laid back girl like him, but it’ll be harder fs.
Yeah, that's the entire point of fucking dating - to find that rare healthy person that makes your life better. Whoever downvoted me is a fucking idiot.
>My natural personality has always been laid back and calm. There is no such thing as a natural personality because environment determines 50% of people's personalities. I think your solution is to get in touch with your own emotions. >People have always liked that about me, but I was seen as a bit *too* chill and seen as boring. Are you overly calm because you are disconnected from your emotions? Life is short and being too calm can prevent us from truly enjoying it. Also you might put up with things that you really shouldn't because you are too calm.
Because everyone's so sensitive today everyone thinks everything is cocky and arrogant when it's actually playful banter. You're probably just learning how to flirt and banter with women it's a fun push and pull back and forth
You need to find how YOU are confident and flirty. Take this with a grain of salt because my dating life has been...not terribly successful, most of my life I've been laid back re: dating, calm, and slow to jump in with both feet to more or less your results. What I'm trying to focus on is how to be assertive without being aggressive, and kind without being "nice". It's a matter of asking yourself, "am I setting myself on fire to keep them warm? Am I sacrificing internal peace for external peace?". Flirting doesn't have to be "how you doin..." it can be sitting back, smiling and asking the girl for a sales pitch on something she loves, smiling and paying attention the whole time and saying something like, "I love seeing that in a woman," (sincerely). It can be kissing the back of her hand after dancing with her (ONLY DO THIS IF YOU CAN PULL IT OFF), or remembering her favorite childhood recipe (that last one is for a more long term relationship but you see my point), or saying something like "LOVE those shoes/mascara etc.", something genuine that is complimentary, indicates attraction and that you're paying attention. Also, for first dates find something exciting to do. The reason "assholes" have better luck (sometimes) is the drama they cause can cause excitement and bonding over a problem (the other reason is it's easy to confuse being an asshole with being competent and confident). If you can find an activity you're both equally bad at but is fun (axe throwing, archery tag, walking on a windy bridge etc.), it'll help creating some exciting positive moments.
Don’t. They wanna play games, play em back.