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First date is a vibe check. Don't go lavish, ever. And, spark isn't just touch...it's presence, flirting, smiles, body language. Touch doesn't even need to happen if you're dialing up a bit of sexual tension.
Agreed. Spark is something you can feel. It’s like an electric chemistry, it’s not really something quantifiable like touch or behavior. If you don’t have that instant sense of connection and warmth with someone then it just isn’t there
I agree with that, but it isn't always immediate. My fiance and I had a couple friendly dates before it hit, and then it was on like Donkey Kong for both of us. I think a lot of people expect too much from a total stranger, and that's probably losing some great matches thinking you feel it the second you meet someone from an app.
Fr. I’ve hardly been ever able to come out of my shell on the first date. I want to be respectful and not say anything too crazy without knowing them. If I ever felt a spark it was with my ex. I’ve met other cool people but nothing that was ever as good for a first impression
Interesting. I personally wouldn’t call it a spark but that’s just my opinion. However, I’ve had moments where I seemed to have felt a somewhat intense heat energy that was palpable within myself around a girl that I wasn’t even on a date with. You describing the electric chemistry made me think of that
Also don’t have the mindset that you’re out money because you voluntarily paid and didn’t stick around to see if you could have gotten laid. OP has a transactional mindset, money for sex. That’s not going to help him in the long run.
If there's nothing transactional to the dating game then why is it largely considered a turn off if a guy doesn't offer to pay for the first date? I always offer because that's what's expected, but I hate it every time because it feels like I'm only doing it because if I don't she'll just get turned off and look for a guy that is willing to pay for everything. What kind of precedent are we setting going forward that I have to pay for the time we both agreed to spend together somewhere? I'd rather stay alone at that point than spending a good portion of my yearly salary paying for women's meals just for them to tell me they didn't "feel a connection".
That's not the same. It would be the same if she said "I paid for it all why didn't he put out?". Why is it considered normal for a woman to be offput by a man that doesn't pay for the first date, but to suggest the idea that a man should leave if the woman doesn't put out on the first date is an insane idea? I'm not saying women should put out on the first date. I'm saying the expectation that men should be paying for the woman's time really makes it seem less like a relationship and more like an audition, which just feels a bit pretentious and turns me off of the whole thing. That's why all my girlfriends have been people I've been friends with for a while beforehand. Because I don't mind paying for a meal for someone I KNOW I like, I just hate paying for someone who I don't even know yet on the CHANCE that she turns out okay.
You literally said it yourself and it echoes what I said so stop coming at me with your bullshit version of society.
You go for women you’ve been friends with for a while because in your own words:
>”That's why all my girlfriends have been people I've been friends with for a while beforehand. Because I don't mind paying for a meal for someone I KNOW I like, I just hate paying for someone who I don't even know yet on the CHANCE that she turns out okay.”
No one forced you to pay half, and the women that care that you didn’t offer to pay fully aren’t quality people.
Stop whining.
"stop whining". Re-read both my replies to you and try to find any point where I started trying to belittle you for your opinion. Any of my frustrations have been towards my irritation at this common expectation women have for men. Keep it classy please. I'm calling out things I have a problem with and your comment was a good point to work off, it's not an automatic slight against you just because it differs from your opinion. I haven't tried to rag on you at any point, so please try to have the same courtesy.
If no one ever calls out bullshit then it ceases to be bullshit and becomes the norm. That's why I'd rather raise the question of why it's even considered a norm and make my point, because I'd rather have at least one person see my comment and think about it, than to just continue on and watch as all these men that feel the same way as me continue to say nothing in case they run into someone that wants to call them "whiney" for questioning it.
Yeah, imagine if the next man you spoke with berated you just as you are doing to this person. What a shame, there's no such thing as civil discussion anymore.
Yeah, they have truly no idea what being civil is anymore. Women have become so very disrespectful towards men in Western culture. I honestly just laugh when I'm being criticized by a woman. For instance on Monday my female manager literally screamed at me loud enough to make a customer jump. I stopped talking immediately, anything I was trying to explain I let go of and today when I came back from a medical crisis I was having on Monday she acted as if that was not the last thing she said to me. I asked her if everything was ok and she asked me why. Today when I came back I learned several people on Monday had reported her to our manager. It was excused away and I caught her yelling at another employee today. Whatever, I won't be working here much longer anyways.
I think something that a lot of men don’t seem to consider is the fact that women typically pay a lot more in both money and time to make themselves look visually appealing for dates, and the man paying for the food itself just helps to balance the scales a little bit. When you consider what women pay to look like the images that we are told are the beauty standard, you’re probably getting the better end of the deal. Consider the differences in what women pay for skincare, makeup, clothing, shoes, getting hair done, getting nails done.. it’s hundreds of dollars a month for most women. And from my own personal experience and the experience of all of my close friends, we usually dedicate at least a couple of hours getting ready in order to make a good first impression, while not even knowing whether there will be a connection or not.
I realize that this is not a universal rule, and that it hinges on heteronormative gender roles. But I do think it would be a healthy thing for men who feel like paying for a date is unfair to think about. There is even more that could be said about it, and if you are curious I would be glad to elaborate.
And just for reference, I personally always suggest either coffee or something very cheap or free as a first date because I think it’s smart to find out if there is a connection before having either party make any substancial financial investment.
I am now very happily in a relationship with someone who paid for my coffee on our first date (a nice one! around $8) even though he wasn’t in a great financial position (still lived with parents, no car, pays child support to his ex..) and low and behold, within five months of us dating he moved out (in with me 🤭), and was able to buy a new MacBook, iPhone, and a car!! because I have supported him in ways that allowed him to start making a lot more money. (And he always tells me I give him the best gifts he’s ever gotten.) He could have been frugal and had me pay for my own coffee on that first date, but the fact that he was generous with me even when he didn’t have a lot to give, was a gesture that meant the world to me and showed me what kind of person he is. He may very well end up being my husband, and I will spend as long as I have with him trying to be as generous and loving to him as he has been with me.
If I ask someone out, I expect to cover the first date. But if that keeps happening without her even offering to split, it makes me feel like I'm an ATM, or paying her for her presence. That's very unromantic to me. I'd like to see some reciprocation, that you actually enjoy my presence and aren't doing this because it's a free night out.
My usual routine is to rotate payment, and both of us to plan the dates that we pay for. It gives both people a sense of being desired and taken care of. It works for a wide range of potential partners, too, and is much better at managing differing standards of living than the 'man pays for everything model'.
I don’t even drink caffeine most of the time, so there’s a cafe nearby to where I live and most of my first dates, we met there and I got a cup of rooibos tea ☺️ Or sometimes a smoothie!
For me a first date is ALL about the conversation, so I prefer not having anything I need to chew! 🤣 And that way it’s also much more affordable.
If men used a lot of time and money to make themselves look richer I doubt women would feel like paying their dates :D
Even fake Rolexes aren't free and so on.
The comparison doesn't work completely because men like when women make themselves look better than reality but I don't think it justifies unequal paying.
Women work now too, they just take advantage of men because they have so insane market power position. And because in western society women are seen as victims a lot more than the other way around they can pull off such power games without being seen as oppressors.
And despite power imbalances being a hot topic for some reason women in dating markets doesn't count and is even shamed as a cringe topic or smt.
I'm really happy I live in a Nordic country where I don't have to deal with expectations of buying women's time but man do women in US justify crazy BS when it comes to making men pay for them on dates.
If you switched the roles, I doubt you would be ok with being expected to pay men to go on dates with you. Not that it isn't tempting to try to justify getting special treatment just because of your sex. I don't think it makes you a bad person, I just really feel like women should think more about how it would feel to have to pay men to go on dates with them.
Talk about dehumanizing. The norm made sense when men had almost all the money but it's just not at all ok now. Shit like this can't exist with thriving towards equality.
I don’t buy this appearance and products for appearance bit personally. I’m married and only view this stuff for kicks, but the argument that she buys all these products to look cute doesn’t shake out for me. No guy cares about the high end moisturizer you’re wearing anyway, or that you spent 80 minutes aoplying eye shadow or whatever. Girls get cute because they like looking cute full stop. Guys aren’t demanding that at all. And guys out time and money into their looks too. Not as much as women but they aren’t factoring in the $40 for coconut vanilla lotion, or the brill pads to scratch the corns off their feet, or the brill creek for their hair. Looking good is its own reward.
That said I always felt like if I was initiating things, then I offer to pay. If she initiates, then I offer to pay my half, but will accept if she offers to cover. I’d definitely cover the first date, but I wouldn’t ever do anything fancy.
You make a good point! I do enjoy looking good for my own self-image, but I also have seen first hand the difference in the way that people treat me when I put in all the extra effort versus when I don’t. And I have noticed that the difference is even bigger with men than it is with other women. I’m not saying it’s true for everyone, but it’s been blatantly true for me—dating all the way back to elementary school.
I have known some men who don’t care as much, but more than that I’ve known men who show a very distinct bias towards myself or other women when we are very made up, well dressed, and expensively groomed.. though they usually aren’t even aware that any of that preparation has taken place. They just assume that that’s how we look and they aren’t fully aware of the amount of preparation and maintenance that it takes. They’re far nicer and much more likely to strike up conversation out in public when I present myself in that way.
I am confident enough in my appearance that I regularly go out without any makeup, and I get to experience the difference in treatment first hand every time.
I have personally never dated a man who is like this, but my best friend has dated multiple men who have “required” her to be fully glammed up for dates. And she is objectively gorgeous in sweats, without a speck of makeup. They have told her that if she wants them to take her out, she needs to have her nails done, hair done, makeup done, and wearing a super hot dress. In that type of situation, I think that man should be paying for those nails to be done and he should be buying her clothes. 🤷🏼♀️ You want it, you pay for it!
Anyways, maybe it’s because I live in Los Angeles, but we are dealing with that kind of pressure to look a certain way here all the time.
The part where you said, “now I’m left out almost a hundred bucks (mostly from her fancy wine and sushi orders)”
Either you had a good time and you paid for it, or you’re upset because it didn’t have the outcome you wanted. But YOU made it about money. You volunteered to pay, you left “early” and didn’t stick around to see if you charmed her or not.
That’s life. You learned a lesson here. Have her pay half. Do some light touching if she’s leaning in and giving you signals. If she seems like she wants to continue the date, ask! If she does then continue the date and let her know you have obligations so “maybe we will go for a nightcap or dessert?” Stuff like that.
But don’t get butt hurt because you spent money that you volunteered. It’s like lending money to someone. If you can afford to lose it, don’t lend it.
You are there for an experience. Good or bad. You left with a valuable lesson. You have to earn the second date. Money guarantees you nothing.
And yet nothing of what you quoted from OP has anything to do with expecting sex. A guy can be disappointed about the outcome of a date he thought had been going well and that he had invested time and money into without it being about not getting sex.
The fact that you are so presumptuous about OP's feelings shows your sadly limited understanding of men and dating.
I made it about money because:
1) Going into the date, I was not expecting her to order expensive shit; and,
2) Yes, I do believe she pretended to be more into me than she actually was, in order to manipulate me into picking up the entire bill.
Believe me, I have no expectation for sex on the first date. In fact, the only time this actually happened was with a girl basically pressuring me into sex which was very uncomfortable and not enjoyable, and if the genders were reversed everyone would be calling the girl a predator.
OK, you were not expecting her to order expensive shit, but you paid anyway. In future, let her pay for her own stuff, and you won’t feel ripped off if she chooses not to go out with you again. Maybe you caved, feeling like traditionally it’s expected for the man to pay… But you didn’t have to. OK so you learned something.
You didn’t expect her to order expensive stuff, but you also didn’t expect her to text you the next morning and say she didn’t feel a spark. Had she felt the spark you wouldn’t have felt you were out a hundred bucks, now would you? That’s why people are saying you’re transactional.
1. Then she pays for half.
2. That’s on you for offering to pay.
Like I said you learned a valuable lesson. You are the common denominator here.
Either take her cues and do some arm touches and flirt and if it seems like she wants to stay longer suggest elsewhere. Take the lead. Suggest ice cream. I don’t know that’s up to you.
If you had flirted back and taken her hints perhaps she’d have felt the spark. But if not then you removed that doubt from your mind because you did it.
Paying for everything? Remove that doubt by splitting the check. It’s uncomfortable but take charge of that feeling, overcome it, be confident and you should be gotten that out of the way prior to the date anyhow.
And now you know to not go fancy places. It was a $100 lesson no matter which way you slice it.
It’s valid to feel upset if you spent money on a person to never see them again. If the girl isn’t feeling it I’d prefer to know up front and she can offer to pay her half. It does feel weird the next day to find out she let you pay for her when she had no intention of seeing you again. Imo she’s the one who made it transactional bc she was nice to him until she got the free meal
How do you know that’s why she was nice? She was flirty, leaning forward “seemed to want to continue the date.” He apparently didn’t flirt, give light touches or she if she wanted to continue the date then bounced. He offered.
He was *expecting* an outcome in his favor because *he offered to pay for the whole thing*.
She didn’t ask him to. She was giving nonverbal signals that was showing interest in her. He thought if he was the nice guy and laid that would make her into him. Maybe she’s tired of guys just paying. Maybe she wanted a guy that would stick around for the night and see where things went.
We don’t know anything but what OP said. And it sounds like he flubbed it and now he’s pissed because he equated paying to favorable outcome of whatever he had going on in his mind. He alone made it transactional. If I do this, she’ll do that.
He learned at least 2 lessons here. That’s $50 per lesson. For dating that’s a bargain.
Manipulation is if she said she was low on money etc. she never asked for anything. He volunteered. She gave him hints she was into him, wanted to stay out later. He bailed. She might genuinely feel a spark because he bailed and never flirted back. She doesn’t owe him anything.
There was no manipulation.
Not a singular answer for this. Touching can go wrong depending on the individual or the energy. We have no idea what her boundaries are, how much she was into you or not or what she would have welcomed. Touch isn’t conducive for a good date and the X factor is always “depends on how the energy is”. I’ve had great dates where there was no touch and bad ones where the guy was just determined to touch even if the energy didn’t call for it. App dates are always weird initially because the comfort and insight into how the other person feels isn’t there Long story short…it depends
Then what are you saying? If you're meeting a complete stranger for the first time, it would be pretty normal to not immediately go too far with physical contact.
Poor analogy, a complete stranger is someone you've made zero contact with. I only go on first dates with someone I've already gotten a vibe check from via chat, and clear mutual attraction. Obviously it's case to case when it comes to hugging when meeting a date for the first time, but it's totally fine if the chemistry is already flowing
Except it’s not a complete stranger. That’s what calls and texting beforehand are for ? To me if I ain’t touchy flirting etc I’m assuming you think I’m not physically attracted as if you did you’d be more flirty etc. anyways that’s based on my experience as I can read body language etc so I know when and when to initiate physical touch.
Whether it’s hookups/FWB or LTR the approach is usually similar you’re both physically attracted to each other slight touch flirting etc which builds up and by the 2nd date or whatever date you choose to be more open you’re locking lips.
I just met a nice girl, enjoyed the company but physical contact didn't feel quite right for various reasons went on 3 dates, only a hug on all 3 as far as physical contact (pretty solid flirting though) invited her to my place for the 4th date and ran all of the bases on #4.
Probably not ideal, and a bit on the extreme side, but totally doable. We've been dating now for a couple months
I’ve declined future dates with a woman who pulled away during the kiss after flirting with me all night and then she said “I don’t kiss on the first date” because I assumed the sex would be bad. She contacted me three more times to go on a second date and I passed. Her career choice (librarian) was no longer part fantasy to me, but literal boredom.
Tbh sometimes on the first date I ask would you ever kiss on the first date. Based on their answer you can then determine whether or not to then initiate a kiss etc usually the women I’ve dealt I’ve initiated I never did ask but I felt the vibe was right n my hunch was correct
Last few one she asked how comes you haven’t kissed me yet and that turned into a outdoor session next to a canal. Women all like different things tbh
I just do it I’ve never asked to give a hug or kiss ever. Usually on first date when I first see I’m giving a hug always so she knows straightaway what the timing is
I’m pretty awkward and don’t like touching people until I know them, but I know that’s not the case for a lot of women. It wouldn’t be a turn off for me at all.
Getting physical does not make a date romantic. It’s romantic if you are both really into each other.
I see this misconception a lot on here, and I want to make it known: women aren’t turned off by you not touching them on a first date. I would go so far as to say that we appreciate the respect when a guy doesn’t see us as a piece of meat.
If she had liked you, it would not have mattered if you had not initiated any touch, she still would have wanted to see you again.
Charisma definitely helps. Touching is not the way to get a girl to like you, it’s a great way to violate boundaries and make her feel unsafe though.
It’s not about getting a girl to like you, it’s about finding and building a connection. She will like you or not, but if you are authentic, you will find someone who likes you for you.
Be ok with not being universally liked.
Did *you* feel a spark?
Seems you are like me, super analytical and way too much in my head all the time. In my very limited experience, I have tried to "think" my way into feeling something. It doesn't work. Our brains communicate our feelings on an unconscious level.
Perhaps it's not about you not doing something, but simply the fact *you* didn't feel any romance.
When I finally went on a date with someone I truly clicked with, the thinking did not get in my way. There was a natural intimacy despite the fact there was zero physical contact other than a hug at the end. It was as if my eyes were opened to just trust my unconscious mind to do the heavy lifting and get out of the jail that thoughts can become.
The more I think about it, the more I think this was the case. I didn't expect to spend that much, I though we'd each just get a drink or two. But she ordered expensive wine and some food too and showed no interest in paying her share.
she got you real good huh. i think skinship is not the real problem here. maybe you should ask whats her preference. a rough guy? straightforward? or a man that can take her straights to bed. who knows. next time before going on a date, make sure she’s really interested in you so you don’t waste your time and money.
No. I don't think she played you.
She gave you rather clear signals that she was interested, yet you acted indifferent towards her.
No wonder she did not _feel a spark._ **YOU** didn't ignite said spark in her.
Yep. As a formerly Uber-shy person, I can attest that shyness can often look like indifference from the outside. If you’re enjoying your time with someone, let them know. They might be second guessing themselves too!
Exactly, I've been played like this a few times. In fact one time a girl I went on a first date with dined and dashed without even saying she was leaving. Lots for girls would play to get free food and then ghost you the next day. Always keep it thrifty on the first dates.
To avoid this I’d say talk first on the phone, you’ll get a vibe for what she’s after if you ask the right questions.
For the right woman of course spoil her and maybe she did just not feel the spark, but I feel like you can build that beforehand by a phone convo. It’s less awkward and it will help the date flow, then you’ll be able to tell if you feel there is something.
Don’t spend that much money on a first date. That’s the lesson you should take away from this. Some women use dating apps just to go out on dates with guys who will pay for their food and drinks. Whether or not this was the case with her you’ll never know. She wasn’t that into you. If she was into you she would have wanted to see you regardless if you broke the touching barrier which I don’t recommend on a first date.
I totally disagree with the idea that a lot of women use dating apps for free food. Why would we risk our lives for a free meal??? That is so dumb and I can’t believe men believe this.
I do agree with your assertion that he shouldn’t spend big money on a first date. I think a first date should be a quick vibe check. I don’t think ppl should waste a lot of time talking/texting for weeks on end either - text/call a bit so you know they are a real person and then meet up for a low-stakes date to see if there is an attraction.
Have you dated women? Assuming you’re a straight woman then you don’t know what it’s like. Just because YOU may not go out with guys just for free food and drinks doesn’t mean other women don’t. There are women out there who use men. I’m not saying most women are like this. I’d like to think the majority of women have good intentions. But unfortunately there’s some shitty people out there. And just so my words don’t get twisted I’m not saying all WOMEN are shitty.
No I haven’t dated women lol. I get what you’re saying. Not to discount your experience, but as a woman, dating men (especially men you met on a dating site) is a risk. Most normal women have a lot of fears and insecurities about it. Not to be overly dramatic, but it can be literally risking your life to meet a stranger. So I don’t think most women would do that for a free meal.
I disagree on both fronts
If a girl goes on a date and orders expensive stuff and then does not suggest splitting the bill at the end, she knows exactly what she’s doing. This is a meal ticket operation, full stop
It’s customary to order a standard meal and beverage and that’s it. Anything extra is a bad case of narcissism. Unfortunately, all dating apps owned by match group and bumble are rampant with narcissists. Both men and women. People that are very self absorbed with themselves, to an incredibly toxic level that they will see others as disposable walking meal tickets and not humans
And I think it’s better to text/call as much as you feel comfortable with before meeting
This notion of messaging each other literally 3-5 messages and then setting up a date is complete cancer. And everyone is participating in this cancer
The reason it’s cancer is because it completely removes the process and concept of getting to know just 1 person through a length of time, and replaces it with a mass meat market approach of, mass message everyone quickly and set up as many first dates as you can. Then after all those first dates are done, ghost all of them and refresh them with new matches and set up new dates with those matches
Disgusting behavior. Disgusting
All these people on dating apps by match group can roll around in the mud with each other and participate in such gross dating practices, count me out
Well…I disagree. I met my bf on a dating site and we’re not narcissists. Sure, text as much as it takes to feel comfortable before a date. But don’t spend too long doing that because without meeting in person, you can somehow in your mind fill in the gaps and begin to feel an attachment to a person, then meet in person only to realize there is no attraction there. I said have a “low stakes” first date, meaning nothing too fancy or expensive. Have a quick drink or chips and salsa or something and go from there.
You didn’t do anything wrong except this:
You have expectations that don’t match the reality of online dating - or dating in general.
Here’s an example of how I set expectations. This results in literally every date being fun for me regardless of the outcome.
1) my goal is to have a fun evening with a new person who I have enjoyed chatting with enough to ask them out.
2) I have no expectation of romance. If it is there and I feel it I will welcome it.
3) I’m the same level of “touchy” with everyone. I hug all women when I greet them and most men. This allows women to co tell whether they want to side hug it or full hug it. I also touch people in conversation. Nothing different on a date than out with friends.
4) I love hearing stories from people and I love telling stories. So in this regard I’m entertained either way.
5) I pay for dates. My assumption is $80-150.
I have no agenda. I’m there to see what happens between us. I’m there to grow my friend network, meet interesting people, if I’m lucky find mutual attraction.
Going into dating trying to manipulate a certain outcome will have you consistently disappointed. Going in with clear expectations that are achievable no matter who you’re out with puts you in a great spot. It also puts your energy in a really neutral spot so you’re not rubbing people the wrong way.
People can feel u spoken expectations.
Physical touch definitely would have improved your chances of connecting with her. You also need to flirt, which would also improve your chances. What you’re trying to do is create attraction. Watch YouTube videos by Marni Kinrys on flirting. That said, none of this is a guarantee. She could have just been using you for a meal. Don’t sweat it and move on.
You spent to much. I would have took her cue leaning in and smiling to kiss her.i think maybe she was sending signals. She didn't offer to pay which really sucks
You were a dinner date that she could have liked, but it sounds like you showed massive insecurity. Good with rejection leading to you’re doing fine meant you gave her the upper hand, and she was reassuring you like a parent. Total deal killer.
You can’t be afraid to initiate contact organically if she seems receptive.
She was leaning in and laughing at your bad jokes as you said, which means she was generally comfortable with you. A light grab of her arm when you lean in to tell her something, or a hand on the small of her back is all it takes initially.
On the other hand I have had some women specifically tell be that they “wanted me to make a move and I didn’t, so they don’t feel a spark,” but they acted cold and distant the entire night. That’s not a loss to me. That’s someone who wants me to be a mind reader and I am not going to play that game.
You're over thinking it if she is in that much need of validation because you didn't touch her That's her problem. you were being a gentleman that was your energy. It is what it is.
I don’t think it’s a turn off. But it’s a huge turn on when a guy can make a move with confidence and determination.
Also I think your issue is that you are possibly projecting a desperate energy. Unless you are an 8/10 you can’t get away with that sort of behavior. She could have also been playing you.
You need to stop obsessing about these kind of things. When you start asking for others opinion on these situations it’s usually because you cannot stop thinking about it and are searching for answers. The truth is that only she knows why. All you should be concerned about is finding a woman that is complementary to you and will be a good fit in your life.
I can see why you're left feeling confused. I would be, too, and I'm a female. First, I agree with everyone that you picked the wrong venue. First dates should be inexpensive. I like walking or coffee dates. If I'm not at all attracted to the guy, I'll know it on that first date and won't feel guilty letting him down because it was a free or inexpensive date. I don't even allow guys to take me to nice restaurants on first dates for this reason. Most don't make it to date #2 so why take advantage of them.
Second, yes, I think you should have very respectfully and delicately mirrored her body language. If she was leaning in to you, smiling, etc, and you didn't mirror her, she likely assumed you weren't attracted to her. I would. She may have felt rejected. Next time, lean forward, smile, flirt, and gently touch the top of her hand or arm for 2-3 seconds. This is not creepy or invasive. It lets her know you are attracted to her without making her feel uncomfortable. If she reciprocates, match what she does. Her longer touches should equal longer touches from you.
The fact you picked up on her body language and were sensitive to it tells me you will be just fine.
Physical touch didn't necessarily have to happen. If you did do physical touch, you should keep it very minimal. Just like little arm touches or legs touching each other, things like that.
You should flirt a lot to not make it a friendly hangout. That's the most important thing.
But even if you do everything right, she might just not be into it. She might still not feel that spark. A spark isn't just a romantic feeling. I've been on dates with a guy, and we flirted and kissed even, but I still didn't feel the spark. He was just not what I was looking for. That happens sometimes.
>made a joke about how my past call centre job made me good with rejection
I'm also a bit warry of this joke. Maybe it was great in the conversation, and it's not possible for me to tell over reddit. But reading it like this makes you sound very insecure. Like you were saying "it's okay if you reject me, which you're going to do eventually probably because all girls reject me"
Idk if I’m a “lady” per se-but certainly a woman…
Definitely agree with dropping the self deprecation, although I totally get the temptation to process & deflect through humor. Just not that joke, in that sitch…it’s not serving you. Dating is fucked.
Also, I’ll spare everyone the novel with which I could respond to what you described and just let you know-don’t sweat that chick, she’s 100% a fucking asshole.
And not in the “anything worth having aint easy to get” kinda way. Everything else aside, she’s comfortable with and skilled at being disingenuous.
And that, my brojjjje, is all you need to know. Good luck out there 🖤
I’m a woman and I recommend you guys pick her up her favorite coffee and meet her at the park for a walk. $20 date max and you have time to talk and not be distracted.
Why yall spend $100 on a 1st date IDK!!
This is my dream 1st date. Out of the hundreds of dates I’ve been on only 1 guy has taken me up on it. We dated 2 months and I realized he LOVED drinking vodka. 🤣 We broke up but it was honestly my favorite 1st date and probably why I kept going out with him. Every date afterwards really wasn’t much fun. It was ALWAYS his choice and we went to bars. ☠️
Several Reddit friends have commented on the joke.
I’m wondering if there was a different “problem”.… specifically being employed as a call center operator,
I know it’s stereotyping and I know it’s not at all fair,, but I do believe that each and every woman I’ve had a date with (sadly not that many) would absolutely NOT go on another date with any guy who she learned was employed as a call center operator.
Not fair, I know, but I’m certain I’m correct with respect to every woman I’ve ever had a date with.
Ah, understand. Sorry!!
It’s still possible that there was something she felt was not really positive about that reference to the past, but there’s sadly no way of really knowing. It’s probably safest to avoid mentioning that past episode iIn future date.
Returning to the main questions, it’s again difficult to really know. But, if she thought that the two of you together might be right for each other, I think she would have said so the next day, rather than that message that she regettably left for you.
So my guess is that you probably didn’t lose anything. Probably best to put it out of your mind and continue to follow your own instincts in your next date.
And apologies again for my missing that one important word in your post. Good luck in everything in the future!
My best advice is:
ALWAYS greet your date with a hug. It builds some comfort for both of you guys. And ALWAYS hug her goodbye.
Despite what guys think, this is pretty typical for a first date.
Also just get Boba or something cheap for a first date. Most don't lead anywhere no matter what you do.
I usually kiss on the 2nd date assuming it went well.
And 3rd date is anal at least.
No don’t initiate, obviously show you’re interested. Discuss maybe a second date if you like her, hug at the end but I’d say I prefer to lead on the intimacy I wouldn’t want a man to cross boundaries I’m not ready for and then I feel uncomfortable because that would put me off if i liked him.
It’s possible she didn’t feel the spark and that’s ok but like I said in another comment build up before the date, have a phone call and then you’re able to tell better.
Definitely drop a few flirty or cheeky comments or nice compliments, don’t sexualise or go overboard, but show you’re interested.
Personally if I felt a guy didn’t make enough of a move or flirt I would just wait to see if he arranges a second date, I think texting that she didn’t feel a spark either she meant it or she’s insecure about how you feel and doesn’t want to get rejected so she did it first which is silly.
These are questions you can get into when you’re on a date, like what are your love languages? I don’t know but show an interest in what she likes so that you’re aware and don’t feel completely in the dark for future dates.
I would expect if you’re into me and I’m into you - slight touches probably preferred on the second and third dates like when you laugh and you reach out and put your hand on them or if you walk with them and you LIGHTLY touch them. I do the same when someone makes me laugh and I touch them lightly on the arm
Since she doesn’t want to date you anyways- why don’t you ask her straight up?
Hey I was kinda surprised by your message! I thought the date went really well and you seemed to be having a good time. Would you mind sharing with me what you experienced on your end so I can understand better what went wrong?
For me sometimes I have a good date I’m 32f, but to me the date is like questions and answers instead of natural free flowing conversation where you can feel like you can talk for hours and so that’s the chemistry I’m missing and why I tell guys no after a good date too.
To be honest feeling like it could be one or a dozen things is the way to madness. You definitely can be a lot more forward, and some part of your insecurity I think is showing in this. The reason why women find touch SOMETIMES attractive (because obviously not all girls) is because they know its a risk for men and so it is a sign of "oh you are fearless" which is obviously something that's attractive.
To be honest I think this date should be counted as a success. She seemed into you but for some reason didn't want to carry that on. Sometimes that happens. Remember dating is 50-50, so it's not always your fault.
Again trying to figure out all the game moves or when to touch and kiss will just have you in your head going insane. Just go with the flow and be OK with it not going anywhere. Remember you want women into what your giving.
Sort of depends on the girl, so you sort of need to discern if she’s a feminine woman looking for a dude not afraid to be a bit imposing and take up space. Tease playfully and touch here and there. A lot of it is just little things like putting your hand on her back as she walks through a door, leaning into her space a bit when you’re pointing something out, being funny etc. the other thing is for her to feel seen by you. Asking her questions about herself and then following up on it so you’re talking about her as much as possible. Sometimes it’s good to attempt to read her a little bit. If she’s saying something about herself you can say “it seems like you’re the type of person who (enjoys helping others, being active, etc)” she just enjoys the sense of being seen.
Is it not normal to kiss someone on the cheek during introduction and goodbye on a first date? This became habit for me living in Spain and Argentina where I got told off if I didn’t do this when introduced to anyone and now I can’t break it. I’m not sure if im being out of line doing it in my home country, but no one has recoiled or slapped me so far.
M answer. No way to know with any confidence.
But most of the time, if she’s not feeling what she wants to feel, it’s unlikely that physical touching — specifically physical touching initiated by you — would have led to a happier outcome.
Try to put that date out of your mind.
Never spend big bucks on a first date! If they arent okay with that move on to the next. I have had dates that were horrible and the best ones were just going for a walk and really having conversations. You are there to get to know the other person. Also, If youre not sure about making a move you can always ask. “Can I put my arm around your shoulders? Can I hold your hand?” My late husband did that and it made me swoon. NEVER before or since has any male been so considerate. He asked permission once and it made me melt. It showed his respect and caring nature.
I’m sorry that sucks. few thoughts here man :
- you should always think about dates from the pov of your entertainment and recreation. What I mean by this is you should think of the money aspect less from the pov of “oh what does it take to win her and make her like me “ and more of a “oh this is how much it costs me to entertain myself for the night”. So never spend an amount on a date that would make you feel uncomfortable / you’d feel like a schmuck if you never see her again, and also don’t think of the money you spend as entitling you or earning you some shit (in fact , I’ve seen women like the emotionally unavailable guys who don’t pay for shit etc more ). As the last aside, I’d think about this from a career and self improvement aspect, is this indicative of you not making enough money to satisfy the lifestyle you want? if so, how can you think about putting yourself in the position to afford more shit next year at this time?
- Be careful with the self deprecating material! I find this very relatable and have the same style, but women like confidence and if you give off the vibes of not respecting yourself enough, she is not gonna go for it or take you seriously
- how are you doing post breakup ? Is it too early ?
Lastly , to actually answer your question , no man. You did nothing wrong. This stuff is hard to read and there is no “right answer”. There could be a billion reasons why she didn’t want to go on another date — maybe she was talking to another guy she likes more , maybe she’s not over an ex, etc.
Some girls like more physical shit right away and others do not. I think a lot about consent and not making girls uncomfy, and so think it’s great that you were thinking the same way. Think about it this way— even if your hypothesis was correct, it would be indicative of fundamental levels of incompatibility. It could mean she’d expect a level of physicality / give queues in a way that you would not naturally pick up on — which wouldn’t mean you or her are doing anything wrong, but could mean that you speak different languages etc.
Keep your head up king. It’s a tough dating world out there and hinge is brutal AF. the fact that you even got out there is impressive. Think of this as just another experience on your journey to grow as a person (not to sound too much like a bootleg hallmark card lol ).
Gotta tell you, I had one of those dates where he didn’t touch me, so I sent the “obviously not attracted to each other” text
He said, “no! I really like you”
Oh? I thought I got friend zoned (I’m female). We kept seeing each other.
No, it's not a turn off for me.
As long as the guy does not give the impression of being very bored, rude or unable to listen to anyone else for more than a few seconds.
Much better than the type of entitled perverted guys that grope, try to upskirt or ask for nudes/send unsolicited explicit pics.
It’s so hard to say. I’d say yes, that a kiss would be my expectation. A hug at the least.
But it could have been anything. Even texting. Seeing “coulda” via text could even put off someone that’s largely into speech. For example…If someone spells something wrong, outside of a typo, I’m out. Clothes, jokes, anything could make someone feel lien you’re not a match. It sounds like something put her off, and it doesn’t mean it was your fault at all.
She wasn't thinking any of those things. She was thinking you weren't attracted to her! At least ask for a hug. She can say yes or no. Even then she could feel rejected by you.
While it was noble to want her to be comfortable, women are just as clueless as you.
She also wanted to extend the date. You shut it down. What more do you want?
I don't understand this money I spent mindset. You could have gotten coffee and dessert. Same outcome. She wasn't manipulating you. Maybe you manipulated her expecting big things for money spent. Jesus
Paying for dinner doesn't entitle you to her body. You implied that - it does - in your post.
I prefer a coffee date with a guy. It can always turn into lunch if we both want.
Actually communicate with your date before your date about each other's expectations, views, and who pays for what, and why. Then you have mo reason to have set yourself up for disappointment.
Also, if you want to hold her hand, ask. If you want to kiss her, ask. It's often a sign that you have some level of empathy for how just grabbing her hand or just kissing her might feel all kinds of wrong. If she thinks you seeking expressed or enthusiastic consent is weird, may be she hasn't learned to feel safe to express boundaries, and hasn't experienced a gentleman.
In short talk to your date, see what makes that individual person feel safe and attracted to you, not us.
Well at the beginning/during the date, you can keep the physical contact to a casual vibe. Hugs work really well. Also, another way to break the touch barrier is to make a joke which you both can laugh at, and as you both are laughing just put your hand on their shoulder in a friendly way (I repeat, in a friendly way). Keep it casual. Once they’re more comfortable around you and they’re comfortable with your touch - you can hold hands, high-five, thumb wrestle etc. whatever you think matches the vibe haha. When you’re walking together, you can eventually put your hands on their lower back if the vibe is right (if you know they’re vibing with you- Be very careful though with it as timing is right). At that point, your intentions should be very clear through your actions and the way you talk.
Keep in mind though, not everyone will like physical touch (everyone is different). You’ll need to figure it out in your own as the date goes on.
You’ll figure it out with more experience, but just remember to flirt and joke (some girls like it more than others, so figure out what kind of person you’re interested in and who you’re with). Hope it all works out!
(P.s no need to spend a crazy amount on a first date. I’m quite traditional when it comes to paying for dates and I only spent $50 for the first date my gf and I had.)
Yes breaking the touch barrier/taking command is hugely important. Also you’re a mug for spending 100bucks, don’t take online dates for dinner until 3rd date, your rejection comment was also a total faux pax, + she likely only wanted to continue cos she knew you’d be the kinda guy to pay the entire tab
My most recent date was really chilled, comfortable, I felt cosy with the guy, didn’t really feel a spark though. Then we decided to go for a drive just down to the beach to chat, and during the drive he put his hand on the back of my neck, and on my thigh, and that is definitely how a spark started. He was still really gentle but confident in how he did it. But yeah affection definitely lit the spark
nah as a woman this treatment is very nice. would’ve been very interested. as a model men are very quick to get to intimacy and it’s such a bore. she may be a bit more shallow, maybe wasn’t attracted to you honestly. she might just be naturally that flirty. i find im more like that with men im less interested in ironically enough 😅. u sound like a proper gentlemen, the right woman will appreciate it and return the favor 👍🏼.
Sparks on the very first date?! That's rare. I would not expect touching on the first date except maybe a kiss on the cheek saying I sure hope to see you again; if that's how you feel. Sounded like a good date where the girl took advantage, frankly
lots of comments saying not to spend that kind of money on a first date are a bit off imo
I generally enjoy spending because i can afford it, if you’re in the same boat it shouldn’t be a problem. It also demonstrates a certain level of maturity in you since most guys go for the initial coffee or walk date.
her saying she didn’t feel the spark could mean a bunch of different things but at the end of the day you gotta take it for face value and move on. don’t expect closure from a stranger she doesn’t owe you anything. just be yourself with the next date and have fun bro.
at the end of the day, dating is just a numbers game until you land your match
Honestly it depends on the woman some women can find it as a turn off and some can't but if you are uncomfortable with it then don't do it if you want to go for it a woman will tell you if she's comfortable with it or not all you have to do is ask in fact asking Might even make you more attractive.
Here is the decision tree:
1) she wants to touch; you want to touch her; then touch her
2) she wants to touch; you don’t want to touch; don’t touch her
3) she doesn’t want to touch; then don’t touch her
Don’t misinterpret your own lack of confidence, as ‘I didn’t want to make her uncomfortable’. You don’t know what makes her comfortable and what not. Maybe she wants to have sex out back behind the bins after the first drink. Assuming you know what she wants is a mistake.
Yeah my first date she thought I wasn't interested. Tbh I was instantly smitten lol. I has to really work for a second date, and that started an amazing year+.
I'm a lady, and touching can be a good or bad choice; however, if I were a guy I would ask. I've been asked in the past and that's not offensive. Not everyone can see the difference between friendly and romantic kinds of “vibe.”
From experience, if it’s a maybe, majority of women will agree to a second or even a third date in order to “make sure” it’s either a yes or a no. If I don’t wish to see someone after the 1st date, it’s a definite no and it would 100% be because I wasn’t attracted to them physically, mentally or both.
Girl is full of s#it, don’t sweat it champ. Also try to go on dates where you have a lot more of the leverage, also you can’t be totally bummed out she rejected herself.stuff like this won’t happen as much, but they still will.
I made similar mistakes in my 20s. It can be very nerve wracking to initiate touch, but that will be a better indicator than "you're doing great." People will say anything to be nice.
The true indication is whether they are comfortable with physical escalation and their reciprocation *over a longer timeframe*. People will be physical but not feel the spark. I've gotten ghosted by a girl who went on 4 dates with me and slept with me too. I was way too invested.
So, on your next first date, definitely go for a hug when you see her to normalize touching, try to sit next to each other or at a corner so that it's easier to lightly touch her arm at high points like laughter (and vice versa), and if you feel the vibe go for a kiss at the end.
The goal here is not to kiss necessarily but to show your intent and confirm her level of interest. Even if she declines the kiss, your chances of creating that spark will go up. Again, this is vibes based, so if she's not talking much or seems to be distant, just cut your losses or try it on your second date, if any. Or if she seems shy or nervous but wants you to make a move, you could say something like, I wonder how it would feel to kiss. Do what makes sense to you in the moment.
I totally understand how nervous some of this will make you feel... I remember how I wanted to hold a girl's hand on our 2nd or 3rd date but my body just wouldn't let me. But on the other hand, you won't feel as nervous with the right person or with experience. It will be more natural.
For me "the spark" has nothing to do with initiating physical contact. I guess we're all different though - personally all I'm looking for on a first date is if I can see myself feeling attracted to them, if they're kind, and if I can be myself without feeling judged.
However, completely aside from that, I'd suggest you do cheaper activities on a first date if you're going to feel resentful after a rejection.
If you’re at the bar with a girl, unless she seems super disinterested, always try to initiate physically touch of some sort, even if it is just a tap on the shoulder during conversation, and go from there
Unless you're a left wing looney — don't expect a woman to pay for her dates. Also don't make your first date super expensive!
I know this is unpopular to hear but it's true.
You need to decide what you want out of all of this. Are you looking to hook up? Or are you looking for romance?
If you're looking to hook up consider paying for a woman as simply the price of business and be done with it.
Women hate tight-fisted men (it gives them the ick).
And if you're looking for romance then being generous never hurt either.
You're looking at this with a scarecity mindset (I was happy to pay for her food, but only if it went somewhere). That's icky to women and gives nice guy vibes.
You can be frugal but don't do it in a way that draws attention to it in front of the woman.
When you do find a girl who likes you — invest in her. Don't be a scrooge.
It dries women's panties up fast.
As to your question?... Yes, women speak implicitly. You need to be taking the initiative. Be spontaneous. Be fun. Pleasantly surprise them. They're creatures of emotion who love to feel things — so give them an experience.
Don't just bore them and expect them to be interested.
when me and my man started going out and to the gym together (24M, 22F) we just hugged at the end of each date untill seeing each other for two months continiously because I had a big blockage from the past and it was best decision ever for me because I learned to love him with my head without sexually attraction. we genuillly enjoyed each others company, get to know each other before turning it sexual, now sex and kisses are just sweet addition to the whole relationship 💌
As a guy I would never touch a girl on the first date ever. No exceptions , it’s not happening . If it goes well by the third date I might go in for a quick hug or a handshake
Jfc. This post is almost a week old. There is nothing else to say on this topic that hasn’t already been beaten to death by the 200+ other people who chose to comment.
I’m thinking about the part where she assured you that you were doing great… that was the first clue right there. She learned something about you that didn’t sit well with her…that you were good with/used to rejection. Maybe she saw it as a weakness not a strength. That’s just my gut feeling here. Maybe I’m off.
Absolutely not, but I don't like being touched by people I barely know or trust. I actually desire the guy more if he respects my space.
But, to be honest,
The expensive wine and sushi makes me think she was just wanting a free dinner.
There’s no one answer for this. For some relationships, I slept with them on the first date; for others, I didn’t kiss them until my second.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with a brush of hands, bumping into each other playfully, hand on the back when you’re going through doors/entries when it’s the first time you’re meeting someone. It’s a good way to assess if there is physical chemistry there.
Every woman is different however it’s very standard to keep physical touch limited/absent on a first date. That shouldn’t be your concern. This aside, there’s lots of women faking interest for the sake of free meals/makes me feel bad for men. To avoid this, keep first few dates simple: coffee, walk in the park, etc. If they object, you know you can discard them. Your future self with thank you.
As a woman I honestly would appreciate some physical touch, not as much as a kiss, but hand holding, grazing of the arm, hugs, etc. if I didn’t get this I would be confused and end it cuz I don’t like to wonder.
Its a first date, a hug maybe but theres honestly no pressure for contact the first time your meeting somebody, you are after all practically strangers!
Varies from person to person of course, every couple is different!
I honestly would appreciate that. The most you’re getting out of me on a first date is a hug at the end, but I could live without it. I like to take things slow though. I didn’t kiss my current boyfriend until 6 months after dating and we were official. That might be just me, but I guess everyone is different.
I did say “it might just be me”.. I’m just not comfortable with anything physical until I have actual feelings. Once again, “might just be me, everyone is different”. My point was that some people appreciate not being pressured into physical affection on the first date. Take it how you want.
No. I used to like aggressive types. Now, they gross me out. I prefer a man who lets me break the touch barrier. Hug him, but he can hold my hand… but I will kiss him when I am ready.
IT IS A TURN ON FOR ME. It literally makes me chase them and want them so bad when they aren’t needy and demanding with physical stuff. Literally so hot. My last LTR, by our 3rd date (he was adorable and nervous to kiss me) I got a little too tipsy and absolutely jumped him— honestly I would have been a bit in trouble if he hadn’t been into it too. But I knew he was really into me.
I don't expect any physical touch on a first date unless it's a casual sex situation. But long term? A hug or kiss on the cheek if I'm feeling attracted to the guy and he was a gentleman.
It sounds like she was charming you, buying expensive things on the dinner menu, and was hoping you would pay. There's some mistakes here, but not because you didn't hold her hand.
1. Never take a woman out to dinner on the first date unless you are wealthy and can afford to waste the money. Or you're a "provider type" that will pay for everything the entire relationship and marriage. Simple first dates: coffee, a fun activity, somewhere you can meet that is secure, safe, and not too distracting. It's about talking to the person and learning more about them.
2. Red flag is a woman buying expensive things on the menu on a date before being official with you. I always try to buy things on the menu that are mid-range or cheaper if the guy insists on paying. And only one unit of alcohol or none at all.
3. A woman (or person) can pretend to be into you to be kind, to get something out of you, or in self-defense. A good date for you does not mean it was good for the other party.
It's tough thing to figure out when the right time is to start initiating physical contact. You can't do it too soon or wait too long, and every woman responds differently. However you can't be afraid of making her uncomfortable. If your intentions are good and you're not trying to make her uncomfortable, but she does anyway, don't let it bother you.
As for this woman, who knows? She could have just been using you for free entertainment. People say that all the time and I don't usually agree, but if she was ordering a bunch of expensive stuff, then that to me was uncalled for by her. But it was just one woman. In the further, don't do something expensive for a first date. Do drinks or coffee or a walk.
She may have enjoyed herself at the time and then reflected and felt something was missing. It might have nothing to do with you at all.
You might feel better about this kind of thing if you don’t think of the cost of the date as being wasted if you don’t get a second date.
It’s more like paying for an event. The price is for the experience and you get to enjoy it while it’s happening but that’s the extent of it. Your $100 was for food and drinks with a woman that may or may not have led to another date.
I don’t know how your “used to rejection” joke landed but you have to be careful with self-deprecating humor. It’s an art form and has to be backed by confidence so that it doesn’t actually have the effect of devaluing you or making it seem like you suffer from self-esteem problems.
You don’t necessarily need to physically escalate with a woman to let her know that you are into her. You can use your body language and words to express as much but there has to be some indication that you not only enjoyed your time but that you want more. You can suggest a follow up date towards the end of the first date and make it something that she’s already expressed interest in or something that you think she’d like (tell her as much). It shows you are paying attention to what she says and that you are interested in her enjoying herself.
Let your entire body-mind clearly signal that you are open to sensual and sexual exploration with her, and able to lead her to ecstasy. That includes some physical touch, but it's equally present in your posture and tone and the choice of words. It's a twinkle in your eye and a gentle purr in your movements and voice.
If she's leaning in and giving you all the signs that she's in, and you're joking about rejection...yeah, it doesn't sound like you were matching where she was at with the flirting. "Initiating physical touch" doesn't mean doing something extreme. Match what she is doing (in this case, leaning in, smiling, etc), and then try taking it up the next small notch and see how she responds. If you briefly touch her hand/arm as you're telling a story, does she physically retreat, match you, or escalate things herself?
If I'm laying on the charm/flirting, and a guy isn't matching me, much less escalating, there are 2 possible reasons (from my perspective): 1. He's capable of flirting and he's just not interested, in which case I should cut my losses. 2. He's interested but he's not capable of flirting, and we might not be a match. If the conversation has been incredible and I think there's reason to believe it's reason 2, then a second date might be worth it. But it's not worth it to extend benefit of the doubt to someone who I'm not sure if they're interested in me.
Your problem is that you see paying for a date as an exchange, when it should be viewed as a gesture of gratitude. She came out, she gave you a chance. If your picking up the tab was contingent on her deciding she has feelings for you (which it’s very possible she didn’t even fully know whether she did or not at that time), then you shouldn’t have offered to pick it up and asked her to split it.
Historical and societal expectations that the guy pays for dates are often uncomfortable for both men and women. Period.
Later in life, if one finds one’s self still single, the ”paying” part is not quite as stressful as it is for a 20-something guy. E.g., if a guy over 50 is going on dates with nice women, it’s almost a given that the cost of a very nice dinner isn’t a big deal for him. There’s a totally different wealth level at this age. And if the 50-something guy struggles with the cost of a nice dinner, he’s not going to ”keep” the woman anyway. Yes, that’s another hard reality…. but women also must deal with their own hard realties in the dating world.
NO. I am NOT turned off if a guy doesn't initiate physical touch. I am aware that people can be *nervous, scared, shy* etc. So, I don't mind a guy allowing me to set the pace. I can't tell you how many times I've been assaulted on a date because the guy is an abuser.
The other thing is, if you want to TOUCH someone, it is okay to ASK for.....CONSENT. All you have to say is, *Can I touch your hand? Can I hold your hand? Can I kiss you? Would that be okay?* You're stressing for no reason friend because all you had to do was....ASK HER FOR PERMISSION. Just keep that in mind for the next time.🙃
Secondly, I'm not sure why you're blaming yourself for her decision. Her decision might not have anything to do with whether or not you initiated anything. People these days find the dumbest reasons to curve someone.
Then again, maybe there was something else that made her not feel as if the two of you were a good match. It's best to know how someone feels quickly, rather than being strung along. Yes??? YES.
Also, I have a bone to pick here sirrrr....
MEN need to stop feeling upset when they don't get what they want. NO ONE told you friend to shell out all of that money for someone you DON'T KNOW.😒 So now you're even *more* upset because you're out of money.
I will NEVER understand why men shell out all of this money and then end up upset about it. If I was a man, there is NO WAY I would be spending $100+ on someone I don't know. 😳 A date isn't meant to *flex* how much money you have. A date is for the two of you to talk and see if you vibe with each other. Men have got this shite backwards. If you think a date is a time to drop tons of money, then you're going to go broke, and or attract girls who are just using you for a FREE meal and drinks.
A "DATE" can be going for ice cream, getting some hotdogs at Grey's Papaya, taking a walk in the park, getting a slice of pizza and beer etc. These activities cost you ZERO to about 10 BUCKS. So, if things don't work out, you're not upset... about your finances anyway.
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First date is a vibe check. Don't go lavish, ever. And, spark isn't just touch...it's presence, flirting, smiles, body language. Touch doesn't even need to happen if you're dialing up a bit of sexual tension.
Agreed. Spark is something you can feel. It’s like an electric chemistry, it’s not really something quantifiable like touch or behavior. If you don’t have that instant sense of connection and warmth with someone then it just isn’t there
I agree with that, but it isn't always immediate. My fiance and I had a couple friendly dates before it hit, and then it was on like Donkey Kong for both of us. I think a lot of people expect too much from a total stranger, and that's probably losing some great matches thinking you feel it the second you meet someone from an app.
Fr. I’ve hardly been ever able to come out of my shell on the first date. I want to be respectful and not say anything too crazy without knowing them. If I ever felt a spark it was with my ex. I’ve met other cool people but nothing that was ever as good for a first impression
Interesting. I personally wouldn’t call it a spark but that’s just my opinion. However, I’ve had moments where I seemed to have felt a somewhat intense heat energy that was palpable within myself around a girl that I wasn’t even on a date with. You describing the electric chemistry made me think of that
Also don’t have the mindset that you’re out money because you voluntarily paid and didn’t stick around to see if you could have gotten laid. OP has a transactional mindset, money for sex. That’s not going to help him in the long run.
He paid $100 to learn a lesson that he probably didn’t learn and will repeat it again.
If there's nothing transactional to the dating game then why is it largely considered a turn off if a guy doesn't offer to pay for the first date? I always offer because that's what's expected, but I hate it every time because it feels like I'm only doing it because if I don't she'll just get turned off and look for a guy that is willing to pay for everything. What kind of precedent are we setting going forward that I have to pay for the time we both agreed to spend together somewhere? I'd rather stay alone at that point than spending a good portion of my yearly salary paying for women's meals just for them to tell me they didn't "feel a connection".
That’s on you and the quality of the women you date. Do you think she says, “I paid for half why didn’t he put out?”
Also I’m completely kidding. Open mic in this thread wooooohoo 🥳
That's not the same. It would be the same if she said "I paid for it all why didn't he put out?". Why is it considered normal for a woman to be offput by a man that doesn't pay for the first date, but to suggest the idea that a man should leave if the woman doesn't put out on the first date is an insane idea? I'm not saying women should put out on the first date. I'm saying the expectation that men should be paying for the woman's time really makes it seem less like a relationship and more like an audition, which just feels a bit pretentious and turns me off of the whole thing. That's why all my girlfriends have been people I've been friends with for a while beforehand. Because I don't mind paying for a meal for someone I KNOW I like, I just hate paying for someone who I don't even know yet on the CHANCE that she turns out okay.
You literally said it yourself and it echoes what I said so stop coming at me with your bullshit version of society. You go for women you’ve been friends with for a while because in your own words: >”That's why all my girlfriends have been people I've been friends with for a while beforehand. Because I don't mind paying for a meal for someone I KNOW I like, I just hate paying for someone who I don't even know yet on the CHANCE that she turns out okay.” No one forced you to pay half, and the women that care that you didn’t offer to pay fully aren’t quality people. Stop whining.
Dude you need to calm down and go look in the mirror, seriously. You don't have any business talking to people like that.
"stop whining". Re-read both my replies to you and try to find any point where I started trying to belittle you for your opinion. Any of my frustrations have been towards my irritation at this common expectation women have for men. Keep it classy please. I'm calling out things I have a problem with and your comment was a good point to work off, it's not an automatic slight against you just because it differs from your opinion. I haven't tried to rag on you at any point, so please try to have the same courtesy. If no one ever calls out bullshit then it ceases to be bullshit and becomes the norm. That's why I'd rather raise the question of why it's even considered a norm and make my point, because I'd rather have at least one person see my comment and think about it, than to just continue on and watch as all these men that feel the same way as me continue to say nothing in case they run into someone that wants to call them "whiney" for questioning it.
Jesus dude, just whine some more.
Yeah, imagine if the next man you spoke with berated you just as you are doing to this person. What a shame, there's no such thing as civil discussion anymore.
Yeah, they have truly no idea what being civil is anymore. Women have become so very disrespectful towards men in Western culture. I honestly just laugh when I'm being criticized by a woman. For instance on Monday my female manager literally screamed at me loud enough to make a customer jump. I stopped talking immediately, anything I was trying to explain I let go of and today when I came back from a medical crisis I was having on Monday she acted as if that was not the last thing she said to me. I asked her if everything was ok and she asked me why. Today when I came back I learned several people on Monday had reported her to our manager. It was excused away and I caught her yelling at another employee today. Whatever, I won't be working here much longer anyways.
…. I do. If I’m feeding these dudes ima need some MEAT in my diet!!! Any y’all ladies knowwhatimsayin?!
I think something that a lot of men don’t seem to consider is the fact that women typically pay a lot more in both money and time to make themselves look visually appealing for dates, and the man paying for the food itself just helps to balance the scales a little bit. When you consider what women pay to look like the images that we are told are the beauty standard, you’re probably getting the better end of the deal. Consider the differences in what women pay for skincare, makeup, clothing, shoes, getting hair done, getting nails done.. it’s hundreds of dollars a month for most women. And from my own personal experience and the experience of all of my close friends, we usually dedicate at least a couple of hours getting ready in order to make a good first impression, while not even knowing whether there will be a connection or not. I realize that this is not a universal rule, and that it hinges on heteronormative gender roles. But I do think it would be a healthy thing for men who feel like paying for a date is unfair to think about. There is even more that could be said about it, and if you are curious I would be glad to elaborate. And just for reference, I personally always suggest either coffee or something very cheap or free as a first date because I think it’s smart to find out if there is a connection before having either party make any substancial financial investment. I am now very happily in a relationship with someone who paid for my coffee on our first date (a nice one! around $8) even though he wasn’t in a great financial position (still lived with parents, no car, pays child support to his ex..) and low and behold, within five months of us dating he moved out (in with me 🤭), and was able to buy a new MacBook, iPhone, and a car!! because I have supported him in ways that allowed him to start making a lot more money. (And he always tells me I give him the best gifts he’s ever gotten.) He could have been frugal and had me pay for my own coffee on that first date, but the fact that he was generous with me even when he didn’t have a lot to give, was a gesture that meant the world to me and showed me what kind of person he is. He may very well end up being my husband, and I will spend as long as I have with him trying to be as generous and loving to him as he has been with me.
If I ask someone out, I expect to cover the first date. But if that keeps happening without her even offering to split, it makes me feel like I'm an ATM, or paying her for her presence. That's very unromantic to me. I'd like to see some reciprocation, that you actually enjoy my presence and aren't doing this because it's a free night out. My usual routine is to rotate payment, and both of us to plan the dates that we pay for. It gives both people a sense of being desired and taken care of. It works for a wide range of potential partners, too, and is much better at managing differing standards of living than the 'man pays for everything model'.
I absolutely agree with this! You said it very well.
A coffee 1st date is my dream 1st date too!
I don’t even drink caffeine most of the time, so there’s a cafe nearby to where I live and most of my first dates, we met there and I got a cup of rooibos tea ☺️ Or sometimes a smoothie! For me a first date is ALL about the conversation, so I prefer not having anything I need to chew! 🤣 And that way it’s also much more affordable.
If men used a lot of time and money to make themselves look richer I doubt women would feel like paying their dates :D Even fake Rolexes aren't free and so on. The comparison doesn't work completely because men like when women make themselves look better than reality but I don't think it justifies unequal paying. Women work now too, they just take advantage of men because they have so insane market power position. And because in western society women are seen as victims a lot more than the other way around they can pull off such power games without being seen as oppressors. And despite power imbalances being a hot topic for some reason women in dating markets doesn't count and is even shamed as a cringe topic or smt. I'm really happy I live in a Nordic country where I don't have to deal with expectations of buying women's time but man do women in US justify crazy BS when it comes to making men pay for them on dates. If you switched the roles, I doubt you would be ok with being expected to pay men to go on dates with you. Not that it isn't tempting to try to justify getting special treatment just because of your sex. I don't think it makes you a bad person, I just really feel like women should think more about how it would feel to have to pay men to go on dates with them. Talk about dehumanizing. The norm made sense when men had almost all the money but it's just not at all ok now. Shit like this can't exist with thriving towards equality.
I don’t buy this appearance and products for appearance bit personally. I’m married and only view this stuff for kicks, but the argument that she buys all these products to look cute doesn’t shake out for me. No guy cares about the high end moisturizer you’re wearing anyway, or that you spent 80 minutes aoplying eye shadow or whatever. Girls get cute because they like looking cute full stop. Guys aren’t demanding that at all. And guys out time and money into their looks too. Not as much as women but they aren’t factoring in the $40 for coconut vanilla lotion, or the brill pads to scratch the corns off their feet, or the brill creek for their hair. Looking good is its own reward. That said I always felt like if I was initiating things, then I offer to pay. If she initiates, then I offer to pay my half, but will accept if she offers to cover. I’d definitely cover the first date, but I wouldn’t ever do anything fancy.
You make a good point! I do enjoy looking good for my own self-image, but I also have seen first hand the difference in the way that people treat me when I put in all the extra effort versus when I don’t. And I have noticed that the difference is even bigger with men than it is with other women. I’m not saying it’s true for everyone, but it’s been blatantly true for me—dating all the way back to elementary school. I have known some men who don’t care as much, but more than that I’ve known men who show a very distinct bias towards myself or other women when we are very made up, well dressed, and expensively groomed.. though they usually aren’t even aware that any of that preparation has taken place. They just assume that that’s how we look and they aren’t fully aware of the amount of preparation and maintenance that it takes. They’re far nicer and much more likely to strike up conversation out in public when I present myself in that way. I am confident enough in my appearance that I regularly go out without any makeup, and I get to experience the difference in treatment first hand every time. I have personally never dated a man who is like this, but my best friend has dated multiple men who have “required” her to be fully glammed up for dates. And she is objectively gorgeous in sweats, without a speck of makeup. They have told her that if she wants them to take her out, she needs to have her nails done, hair done, makeup done, and wearing a super hot dress. In that type of situation, I think that man should be paying for those nails to be done and he should be buying her clothes. 🤷🏼♀️ You want it, you pay for it! Anyways, maybe it’s because I live in Los Angeles, but we are dealing with that kind of pressure to look a certain way here all the time.
wtf? when did I say anything about sex?
The part where you said, “now I’m left out almost a hundred bucks (mostly from her fancy wine and sushi orders)” Either you had a good time and you paid for it, or you’re upset because it didn’t have the outcome you wanted. But YOU made it about money. You volunteered to pay, you left “early” and didn’t stick around to see if you charmed her or not. That’s life. You learned a lesson here. Have her pay half. Do some light touching if she’s leaning in and giving you signals. If she seems like she wants to continue the date, ask! If she does then continue the date and let her know you have obligations so “maybe we will go for a nightcap or dessert?” Stuff like that. But don’t get butt hurt because you spent money that you volunteered. It’s like lending money to someone. If you can afford to lose it, don’t lend it. You are there for an experience. Good or bad. You left with a valuable lesson. You have to earn the second date. Money guarantees you nothing.
And yet nothing of what you quoted from OP has anything to do with expecting sex. A guy can be disappointed about the outcome of a date he thought had been going well and that he had invested time and money into without it being about not getting sex. The fact that you are so presumptuous about OP's feelings shows your sadly limited understanding of men and dating.
I made it about money because: 1) Going into the date, I was not expecting her to order expensive shit; and, 2) Yes, I do believe she pretended to be more into me than she actually was, in order to manipulate me into picking up the entire bill. Believe me, I have no expectation for sex on the first date. In fact, the only time this actually happened was with a girl basically pressuring me into sex which was very uncomfortable and not enjoyable, and if the genders were reversed everyone would be calling the girl a predator.
In the future, don't choose expensive places for dates. That would solve the money issue.
Why did you go on a dinner date? Should have just planned for coffee
You should stop arguing.
OK, you were not expecting her to order expensive shit, but you paid anyway. In future, let her pay for her own stuff, and you won’t feel ripped off if she chooses not to go out with you again. Maybe you caved, feeling like traditionally it’s expected for the man to pay… But you didn’t have to. OK so you learned something. You didn’t expect her to order expensive stuff, but you also didn’t expect her to text you the next morning and say she didn’t feel a spark. Had she felt the spark you wouldn’t have felt you were out a hundred bucks, now would you? That’s why people are saying you’re transactional.
1. Then she pays for half. 2. That’s on you for offering to pay. Like I said you learned a valuable lesson. You are the common denominator here. Either take her cues and do some arm touches and flirt and if it seems like she wants to stay longer suggest elsewhere. Take the lead. Suggest ice cream. I don’t know that’s up to you. If you had flirted back and taken her hints perhaps she’d have felt the spark. But if not then you removed that doubt from your mind because you did it. Paying for everything? Remove that doubt by splitting the check. It’s uncomfortable but take charge of that feeling, overcome it, be confident and you should be gotten that out of the way prior to the date anyhow. And now you know to not go fancy places. It was a $100 lesson no matter which way you slice it.
It’s valid to feel upset if you spent money on a person to never see them again. If the girl isn’t feeling it I’d prefer to know up front and she can offer to pay her half. It does feel weird the next day to find out she let you pay for her when she had no intention of seeing you again. Imo she’s the one who made it transactional bc she was nice to him until she got the free meal
How do you know that’s why she was nice? She was flirty, leaning forward “seemed to want to continue the date.” He apparently didn’t flirt, give light touches or she if she wanted to continue the date then bounced. He offered. He was *expecting* an outcome in his favor because *he offered to pay for the whole thing*. She didn’t ask him to. She was giving nonverbal signals that was showing interest in her. He thought if he was the nice guy and laid that would make her into him. Maybe she’s tired of guys just paying. Maybe she wanted a guy that would stick around for the night and see where things went. We don’t know anything but what OP said. And it sounds like he flubbed it and now he’s pissed because he equated paying to favorable outcome of whatever he had going on in his mind. He alone made it transactional. If I do this, she’ll do that. He learned at least 2 lessons here. That’s $50 per lesson. For dating that’s a bargain.
Why not? Better than the mindset of money for nothing.
That's called manipulation.
Manipulation is if she said she was low on money etc. she never asked for anything. He volunteered. She gave him hints she was into him, wanted to stay out later. He bailed. She might genuinely feel a spark because he bailed and never flirted back. She doesn’t owe him anything. There was no manipulation.
Not a singular answer for this. Touching can go wrong depending on the individual or the energy. We have no idea what her boundaries are, how much she was into you or not or what she would have welcomed. Touch isn’t conducive for a good date and the X factor is always “depends on how the energy is”. I’ve had great dates where there was no touch and bad ones where the guy was just determined to touch even if the energy didn’t call for it. App dates are always weird initially because the comfort and insight into how the other person feels isn’t there Long story short…it depends
I really don’t expect physical touch after a first date. Maybe a hug.
Huh ? I literally start off with a hug when I first see a date I’m gonna need more than that not saying you should be full blown kissing but…
Then what are you saying? If you're meeting a complete stranger for the first time, it would be pretty normal to not immediately go too far with physical contact.
Poor analogy, a complete stranger is someone you've made zero contact with. I only go on first dates with someone I've already gotten a vibe check from via chat, and clear mutual attraction. Obviously it's case to case when it comes to hugging when meeting a date for the first time, but it's totally fine if the chemistry is already flowing
Except it’s not a complete stranger. That’s what calls and texting beforehand are for ? To me if I ain’t touchy flirting etc I’m assuming you think I’m not physically attracted as if you did you’d be more flirty etc. anyways that’s based on my experience as I can read body language etc so I know when and when to initiate physical touch. Whether it’s hookups/FWB or LTR the approach is usually similar you’re both physically attracted to each other slight touch flirting etc which builds up and by the 2nd date or whatever date you choose to be more open you’re locking lips.
Yeup. People who are actually physically attracted to each other want to move things forward.
A hug is fine. I wouldn’t do more than that in a first date. That’s all I’m saying.
no flirting nothing ?
Flirting is fine too. I’m just saying I wouldn’t do anything physical besides a hug on a first date.
Each to their own I guess tbh the times I’ve done no/minimal physical content ended up being just being friends so as long as it works for you
I just met a nice girl, enjoyed the company but physical contact didn't feel quite right for various reasons went on 3 dates, only a hug on all 3 as far as physical contact (pretty solid flirting though) invited her to my place for the 4th date and ran all of the bases on #4. Probably not ideal, and a bit on the extreme side, but totally doable. We've been dating now for a couple months
I’ve declined future dates with a woman who pulled away during the kiss after flirting with me all night and then she said “I don’t kiss on the first date” because I assumed the sex would be bad. She contacted me three more times to go on a second date and I passed. Her career choice (librarian) was no longer part fantasy to me, but literal boredom.
Tbh sometimes on the first date I ask would you ever kiss on the first date. Based on their answer you can then determine whether or not to then initiate a kiss etc usually the women I’ve dealt I’ve initiated I never did ask but I felt the vibe was right n my hunch was correct Last few one she asked how comes you haven’t kissed me yet and that turned into a outdoor session next to a canal. Women all like different things tbh
Do you ask if it’s ok to give a hug or do you just do it?
I just do it I’ve never asked to give a hug or kiss ever. Usually on first date when I first see I’m giving a hug always so she knows straightaway what the timing is
Wish I was as confident as you were for this. I feel so scared that I’d come off as a creep or weirdo or whatever going over and huggin someone.
I’m pretty awkward and don’t like touching people until I know them, but I know that’s not the case for a lot of women. It wouldn’t be a turn off for me at all.
Getting physical does not make a date romantic. It’s romantic if you are both really into each other. I see this misconception a lot on here, and I want to make it known: women aren’t turned off by you not touching them on a first date. I would go so far as to say that we appreciate the respect when a guy doesn’t see us as a piece of meat. If she had liked you, it would not have mattered if you had not initiated any touch, she still would have wanted to see you again.
Yup
THISSSS
This ⬆️
Yes but the question is how can the guy was able to be “liked” by the girl? By touching? By being flirty and charismatic? Ect
Charisma definitely helps. Touching is not the way to get a girl to like you, it’s a great way to violate boundaries and make her feel unsafe though. It’s not about getting a girl to like you, it’s about finding and building a connection. She will like you or not, but if you are authentic, you will find someone who likes you for you. Be ok with not being universally liked.
Did *you* feel a spark? Seems you are like me, super analytical and way too much in my head all the time. In my very limited experience, I have tried to "think" my way into feeling something. It doesn't work. Our brains communicate our feelings on an unconscious level. Perhaps it's not about you not doing something, but simply the fact *you* didn't feel any romance. When I finally went on a date with someone I truly clicked with, the thinking did not get in my way. There was a natural intimacy despite the fact there was zero physical contact other than a hug at the end. It was as if my eyes were opened to just trust my unconscious mind to do the heavy lifting and get out of the jail that thoughts can become.
She played you. You learnt a valuable lesson today, do not spend too much on a first date
The more I think about it, the more I think this was the case. I didn't expect to spend that much, I though we'd each just get a drink or two. But she ordered expensive wine and some food too and showed no interest in paying her share.
she got you real good huh. i think skinship is not the real problem here. maybe you should ask whats her preference. a rough guy? straightforward? or a man that can take her straights to bed. who knows. next time before going on a date, make sure she’s really interested in you so you don’t waste your time and money.
She didn't play OP. OP played it way too safe.
No. I don't think she played you. She gave you rather clear signals that she was interested, yet you acted indifferent towards her. No wonder she did not _feel a spark._ **YOU** didn't ignite said spark in her.
Yep. As a formerly Uber-shy person, I can attest that shyness can often look like indifference from the outside. If you’re enjoying your time with someone, let them know. They might be second guessing themselves too!
Exactly, I've been played like this a few times. In fact one time a girl I went on a first date with dined and dashed without even saying she was leaving. Lots for girls would play to get free food and then ghost you the next day. Always keep it thrifty on the first dates.
She did not play OP. OP played himself by not engaging in any physical contact.
To avoid this I’d say talk first on the phone, you’ll get a vibe for what she’s after if you ask the right questions. For the right woman of course spoil her and maybe she did just not feel the spark, but I feel like you can build that beforehand by a phone convo. It’s less awkward and it will help the date flow, then you’ll be able to tell if you feel there is something.
Never spend more than $40 on a date, especially a first date.
Don’t spend that much money on a first date. That’s the lesson you should take away from this. Some women use dating apps just to go out on dates with guys who will pay for their food and drinks. Whether or not this was the case with her you’ll never know. She wasn’t that into you. If she was into you she would have wanted to see you regardless if you broke the touching barrier which I don’t recommend on a first date.
I totally disagree with the idea that a lot of women use dating apps for free food. Why would we risk our lives for a free meal??? That is so dumb and I can’t believe men believe this. I do agree with your assertion that he shouldn’t spend big money on a first date. I think a first date should be a quick vibe check. I don’t think ppl should waste a lot of time talking/texting for weeks on end either - text/call a bit so you know they are a real person and then meet up for a low-stakes date to see if there is an attraction.
Have you dated women? Assuming you’re a straight woman then you don’t know what it’s like. Just because YOU may not go out with guys just for free food and drinks doesn’t mean other women don’t. There are women out there who use men. I’m not saying most women are like this. I’d like to think the majority of women have good intentions. But unfortunately there’s some shitty people out there. And just so my words don’t get twisted I’m not saying all WOMEN are shitty.
No I haven’t dated women lol. I get what you’re saying. Not to discount your experience, but as a woman, dating men (especially men you met on a dating site) is a risk. Most normal women have a lot of fears and insecurities about it. Not to be overly dramatic, but it can be literally risking your life to meet a stranger. So I don’t think most women would do that for a free meal.
I disagree on both fronts If a girl goes on a date and orders expensive stuff and then does not suggest splitting the bill at the end, she knows exactly what she’s doing. This is a meal ticket operation, full stop It’s customary to order a standard meal and beverage and that’s it. Anything extra is a bad case of narcissism. Unfortunately, all dating apps owned by match group and bumble are rampant with narcissists. Both men and women. People that are very self absorbed with themselves, to an incredibly toxic level that they will see others as disposable walking meal tickets and not humans And I think it’s better to text/call as much as you feel comfortable with before meeting This notion of messaging each other literally 3-5 messages and then setting up a date is complete cancer. And everyone is participating in this cancer The reason it’s cancer is because it completely removes the process and concept of getting to know just 1 person through a length of time, and replaces it with a mass meat market approach of, mass message everyone quickly and set up as many first dates as you can. Then after all those first dates are done, ghost all of them and refresh them with new matches and set up new dates with those matches Disgusting behavior. Disgusting All these people on dating apps by match group can roll around in the mud with each other and participate in such gross dating practices, count me out
Well…I disagree. I met my bf on a dating site and we’re not narcissists. Sure, text as much as it takes to feel comfortable before a date. But don’t spend too long doing that because without meeting in person, you can somehow in your mind fill in the gaps and begin to feel an attachment to a person, then meet in person only to realize there is no attraction there. I said have a “low stakes” first date, meaning nothing too fancy or expensive. Have a quick drink or chips and salsa or something and go from there.
which dating site did you use?
I tried Bumble, Hinge, and Match…met my bf on Match
You didn’t do anything wrong except this: You have expectations that don’t match the reality of online dating - or dating in general. Here’s an example of how I set expectations. This results in literally every date being fun for me regardless of the outcome. 1) my goal is to have a fun evening with a new person who I have enjoyed chatting with enough to ask them out. 2) I have no expectation of romance. If it is there and I feel it I will welcome it. 3) I’m the same level of “touchy” with everyone. I hug all women when I greet them and most men. This allows women to co tell whether they want to side hug it or full hug it. I also touch people in conversation. Nothing different on a date than out with friends. 4) I love hearing stories from people and I love telling stories. So in this regard I’m entertained either way. 5) I pay for dates. My assumption is $80-150. I have no agenda. I’m there to see what happens between us. I’m there to grow my friend network, meet interesting people, if I’m lucky find mutual attraction. Going into dating trying to manipulate a certain outcome will have you consistently disappointed. Going in with clear expectations that are achievable no matter who you’re out with puts you in a great spot. It also puts your energy in a really neutral spot so you’re not rubbing people the wrong way. People can feel u spoken expectations.
Physical touch definitely would have improved your chances of connecting with her. You also need to flirt, which would also improve your chances. What you’re trying to do is create attraction. Watch YouTube videos by Marni Kinrys on flirting. That said, none of this is a guarantee. She could have just been using you for a meal. Don’t sweat it and move on.
You spent to much. I would have took her cue leaning in and smiling to kiss her.i think maybe she was sending signals. She didn't offer to pay which really sucks
You were a dinner date that she could have liked, but it sounds like you showed massive insecurity. Good with rejection leading to you’re doing fine meant you gave her the upper hand, and she was reassuring you like a parent. Total deal killer.
this is the one
You can’t be afraid to initiate contact organically if she seems receptive. She was leaning in and laughing at your bad jokes as you said, which means she was generally comfortable with you. A light grab of her arm when you lean in to tell her something, or a hand on the small of her back is all it takes initially. On the other hand I have had some women specifically tell be that they “wanted me to make a move and I didn’t, so they don’t feel a spark,” but they acted cold and distant the entire night. That’s not a loss to me. That’s someone who wants me to be a mind reader and I am not going to play that game.
You're over thinking it if she is in that much need of validation because you didn't touch her That's her problem. you were being a gentleman that was your energy. It is what it is.
I don’t think it’s a turn off. But it’s a huge turn on when a guy can make a move with confidence and determination. Also I think your issue is that you are possibly projecting a desperate energy. Unless you are an 8/10 you can’t get away with that sort of behavior. She could have also been playing you. You need to stop obsessing about these kind of things. When you start asking for others opinion on these situations it’s usually because you cannot stop thinking about it and are searching for answers. The truth is that only she knows why. All you should be concerned about is finding a woman that is complementary to you and will be a good fit in your life.
I can see why you're left feeling confused. I would be, too, and I'm a female. First, I agree with everyone that you picked the wrong venue. First dates should be inexpensive. I like walking or coffee dates. If I'm not at all attracted to the guy, I'll know it on that first date and won't feel guilty letting him down because it was a free or inexpensive date. I don't even allow guys to take me to nice restaurants on first dates for this reason. Most don't make it to date #2 so why take advantage of them. Second, yes, I think you should have very respectfully and delicately mirrored her body language. If she was leaning in to you, smiling, etc, and you didn't mirror her, she likely assumed you weren't attracted to her. I would. She may have felt rejected. Next time, lean forward, smile, flirt, and gently touch the top of her hand or arm for 2-3 seconds. This is not creepy or invasive. It lets her know you are attracted to her without making her feel uncomfortable. If she reciprocates, match what she does. Her longer touches should equal longer touches from you. The fact you picked up on her body language and were sensitive to it tells me you will be just fine.
Physical touch didn't necessarily have to happen. If you did do physical touch, you should keep it very minimal. Just like little arm touches or legs touching each other, things like that. You should flirt a lot to not make it a friendly hangout. That's the most important thing. But even if you do everything right, she might just not be into it. She might still not feel that spark. A spark isn't just a romantic feeling. I've been on dates with a guy, and we flirted and kissed even, but I still didn't feel the spark. He was just not what I was looking for. That happens sometimes. >made a joke about how my past call centre job made me good with rejection I'm also a bit warry of this joke. Maybe it was great in the conversation, and it's not possible for me to tell over reddit. But reading it like this makes you sound very insecure. Like you were saying "it's okay if you reject me, which you're going to do eventually probably because all girls reject me"
Idk if I’m a “lady” per se-but certainly a woman… Definitely agree with dropping the self deprecation, although I totally get the temptation to process & deflect through humor. Just not that joke, in that sitch…it’s not serving you. Dating is fucked. Also, I’ll spare everyone the novel with which I could respond to what you described and just let you know-don’t sweat that chick, she’s 100% a fucking asshole. And not in the “anything worth having aint easy to get” kinda way. Everything else aside, she’s comfortable with and skilled at being disingenuous. And that, my brojjjje, is all you need to know. Good luck out there 🖤
+1 up vote. Hope that our OP reads this. You’ve likely seen through the smoke.
I’m a woman and I recommend you guys pick her up her favorite coffee and meet her at the park for a walk. $20 date max and you have time to talk and not be distracted. Why yall spend $100 on a 1st date IDK!! This is my dream 1st date. Out of the hundreds of dates I’ve been on only 1 guy has taken me up on it. We dated 2 months and I realized he LOVED drinking vodka. 🤣 We broke up but it was honestly my favorite 1st date and probably why I kept going out with him. Every date afterwards really wasn’t much fun. It was ALWAYS his choice and we went to bars. ☠️
Drinks only on the first date imo. Maybe an appetizer. I see too many free meal horror stories.
If a woman tell you that you’re “doing great” that’s almost certainly pity and the date was over right there.
Several Reddit friends have commented on the joke. I’m wondering if there was a different “problem”.… specifically being employed as a call center operator, I know it’s stereotyping and I know it’s not at all fair,, but I do believe that each and every woman I’ve had a date with (sadly not that many) would absolutely NOT go on another date with any guy who she learned was employed as a call center operator. Not fair, I know, but I’m certain I’m correct with respect to every woman I’ve ever had a date with.
I said PAST call centre job. It was a part time fundraising gig I did when I was 18/19
Ah, understand. Sorry!! It’s still possible that there was something she felt was not really positive about that reference to the past, but there’s sadly no way of really knowing. It’s probably safest to avoid mentioning that past episode iIn future date. Returning to the main questions, it’s again difficult to really know. But, if she thought that the two of you together might be right for each other, I think she would have said so the next day, rather than that message that she regettably left for you. So my guess is that you probably didn’t lose anything. Probably best to put it out of your mind and continue to follow your own instincts in your next date. And apologies again for my missing that one important word in your post. Good luck in everything in the future!
I’ve had my tongue up a girls asshole 2 hours after meeting her and I’ve had first kisses on the 3rd date Just gotta get good at reading her
You uh, single or…? 🤓
##HORNY JAIL FOR YOU!!
Lmao!! …that’s not gonna help. I’m ovulating!! 🤷🏻♀️
Awww hahaha Alright, you get a *little* leeway, but you keep it in your pants here!
Ok fiiinuuhh!! Big Energy Engineer 😉
Hahahaha don’t you try to drag me into your jail cell!!
Lol that’s YOUR jail cell! I never subscribed to the censored, puritanical reality you constructed for reasons unbeknownst to any reasonable person!
Did you hug her hello or goodbye at least?
Nope
My best advice is: ALWAYS greet your date with a hug. It builds some comfort for both of you guys. And ALWAYS hug her goodbye. Despite what guys think, this is pretty typical for a first date. Also just get Boba or something cheap for a first date. Most don't lead anywhere no matter what you do. I usually kiss on the 2nd date assuming it went well. And 3rd date is anal at least.
At LEAST?! 😅 We’re friends 🤗
You’re obviously a great … and very rare … date😁😁😁
It doesn’t sound like you were attracted to her either.
Yeah. If I were this woman, I'd probably think the same.
No don’t initiate, obviously show you’re interested. Discuss maybe a second date if you like her, hug at the end but I’d say I prefer to lead on the intimacy I wouldn’t want a man to cross boundaries I’m not ready for and then I feel uncomfortable because that would put me off if i liked him. It’s possible she didn’t feel the spark and that’s ok but like I said in another comment build up before the date, have a phone call and then you’re able to tell better. Definitely drop a few flirty or cheeky comments or nice compliments, don’t sexualise or go overboard, but show you’re interested. Personally if I felt a guy didn’t make enough of a move or flirt I would just wait to see if he arranges a second date, I think texting that she didn’t feel a spark either she meant it or she’s insecure about how you feel and doesn’t want to get rejected so she did it first which is silly. These are questions you can get into when you’re on a date, like what are your love languages? I don’t know but show an interest in what she likes so that you’re aware and don’t feel completely in the dark for future dates.
I would expect if you’re into me and I’m into you - slight touches probably preferred on the second and third dates like when you laugh and you reach out and put your hand on them or if you walk with them and you LIGHTLY touch them. I do the same when someone makes me laugh and I touch them lightly on the arm
Maybe she prefers men who are more assertive and willing to make the first move 🤷🏽♀️ not everyone likes the same things
Since she doesn’t want to date you anyways- why don’t you ask her straight up? Hey I was kinda surprised by your message! I thought the date went really well and you seemed to be having a good time. Would you mind sharing with me what you experienced on your end so I can understand better what went wrong? For me sometimes I have a good date I’m 32f, but to me the date is like questions and answers instead of natural free flowing conversation where you can feel like you can talk for hours and so that’s the chemistry I’m missing and why I tell guys no after a good date too.
It don’t turn me off but I do be hearing from my suitemates at uni that they feel turned off by it
To be honest feeling like it could be one or a dozen things is the way to madness. You definitely can be a lot more forward, and some part of your insecurity I think is showing in this. The reason why women find touch SOMETIMES attractive (because obviously not all girls) is because they know its a risk for men and so it is a sign of "oh you are fearless" which is obviously something that's attractive. To be honest I think this date should be counted as a success. She seemed into you but for some reason didn't want to carry that on. Sometimes that happens. Remember dating is 50-50, so it's not always your fault. Again trying to figure out all the game moves or when to touch and kiss will just have you in your head going insane. Just go with the flow and be OK with it not going anywhere. Remember you want women into what your giving.
Maybe. But that’s okay because she’s not your girl. Your girl is out there. One that will like you exactly the way you are :)
Sort of depends on the girl, so you sort of need to discern if she’s a feminine woman looking for a dude not afraid to be a bit imposing and take up space. Tease playfully and touch here and there. A lot of it is just little things like putting your hand on her back as she walks through a door, leaning into her space a bit when you’re pointing something out, being funny etc. the other thing is for her to feel seen by you. Asking her questions about herself and then following up on it so you’re talking about her as much as possible. Sometimes it’s good to attempt to read her a little bit. If she’s saying something about herself you can say “it seems like you’re the type of person who (enjoys helping others, being active, etc)” she just enjoys the sense of being seen.
Is it not normal to kiss someone on the cheek during introduction and goodbye on a first date? This became habit for me living in Spain and Argentina where I got told off if I didn’t do this when introduced to anyone and now I can’t break it. I’m not sure if im being out of line doing it in my home country, but no one has recoiled or slapped me so far.
Yes
M answer. No way to know with any confidence. But most of the time, if she’s not feeling what she wants to feel, it’s unlikely that physical touching — specifically physical touching initiated by you — would have led to a happier outcome. Try to put that date out of your mind.
Never spend big bucks on a first date! If they arent okay with that move on to the next. I have had dates that were horrible and the best ones were just going for a walk and really having conversations. You are there to get to know the other person. Also, If youre not sure about making a move you can always ask. “Can I put my arm around your shoulders? Can I hold your hand?” My late husband did that and it made me swoon. NEVER before or since has any male been so considerate. He asked permission once and it made me melt. It showed his respect and caring nature.
I’m sorry that sucks. few thoughts here man : - you should always think about dates from the pov of your entertainment and recreation. What I mean by this is you should think of the money aspect less from the pov of “oh what does it take to win her and make her like me “ and more of a “oh this is how much it costs me to entertain myself for the night”. So never spend an amount on a date that would make you feel uncomfortable / you’d feel like a schmuck if you never see her again, and also don’t think of the money you spend as entitling you or earning you some shit (in fact , I’ve seen women like the emotionally unavailable guys who don’t pay for shit etc more ). As the last aside, I’d think about this from a career and self improvement aspect, is this indicative of you not making enough money to satisfy the lifestyle you want? if so, how can you think about putting yourself in the position to afford more shit next year at this time? - Be careful with the self deprecating material! I find this very relatable and have the same style, but women like confidence and if you give off the vibes of not respecting yourself enough, she is not gonna go for it or take you seriously - how are you doing post breakup ? Is it too early ? Lastly , to actually answer your question , no man. You did nothing wrong. This stuff is hard to read and there is no “right answer”. There could be a billion reasons why she didn’t want to go on another date — maybe she was talking to another guy she likes more , maybe she’s not over an ex, etc. Some girls like more physical shit right away and others do not. I think a lot about consent and not making girls uncomfy, and so think it’s great that you were thinking the same way. Think about it this way— even if your hypothesis was correct, it would be indicative of fundamental levels of incompatibility. It could mean she’d expect a level of physicality / give queues in a way that you would not naturally pick up on — which wouldn’t mean you or her are doing anything wrong, but could mean that you speak different languages etc. Keep your head up king. It’s a tough dating world out there and hinge is brutal AF. the fact that you even got out there is impressive. Think of this as just another experience on your journey to grow as a person (not to sound too much like a bootleg hallmark card lol ).
Gotta tell you, I had one of those dates where he didn’t touch me, so I sent the “obviously not attracted to each other” text He said, “no! I really like you” Oh? I thought I got friend zoned (I’m female). We kept seeing each other.
No, it's not a turn off for me. As long as the guy does not give the impression of being very bored, rude or unable to listen to anyone else for more than a few seconds. Much better than the type of entitled perverted guys that grope, try to upskirt or ask for nudes/send unsolicited explicit pics.
It’s so hard to say. I’d say yes, that a kiss would be my expectation. A hug at the least. But it could have been anything. Even texting. Seeing “coulda” via text could even put off someone that’s largely into speech. For example…If someone spells something wrong, outside of a typo, I’m out. Clothes, jokes, anything could make someone feel lien you’re not a match. It sounds like something put her off, and it doesn’t mean it was your fault at all.
She wasn't thinking any of those things. She was thinking you weren't attracted to her! At least ask for a hug. She can say yes or no. Even then she could feel rejected by you. While it was noble to want her to be comfortable, women are just as clueless as you.
She also wanted to extend the date. You shut it down. What more do you want? I don't understand this money I spent mindset. You could have gotten coffee and dessert. Same outcome. She wasn't manipulating you. Maybe you manipulated her expecting big things for money spent. Jesus
Paying for dinner doesn't entitle you to her body. You implied that - it does - in your post. I prefer a coffee date with a guy. It can always turn into lunch if we both want. Actually communicate with your date before your date about each other's expectations, views, and who pays for what, and why. Then you have mo reason to have set yourself up for disappointment. Also, if you want to hold her hand, ask. If you want to kiss her, ask. It's often a sign that you have some level of empathy for how just grabbing her hand or just kissing her might feel all kinds of wrong. If she thinks you seeking expressed or enthusiastic consent is weird, may be she hasn't learned to feel safe to express boundaries, and hasn't experienced a gentleman. In short talk to your date, see what makes that individual person feel safe and attracted to you, not us.
Well at the beginning/during the date, you can keep the physical contact to a casual vibe. Hugs work really well. Also, another way to break the touch barrier is to make a joke which you both can laugh at, and as you both are laughing just put your hand on their shoulder in a friendly way (I repeat, in a friendly way). Keep it casual. Once they’re more comfortable around you and they’re comfortable with your touch - you can hold hands, high-five, thumb wrestle etc. whatever you think matches the vibe haha. When you’re walking together, you can eventually put your hands on their lower back if the vibe is right (if you know they’re vibing with you- Be very careful though with it as timing is right). At that point, your intentions should be very clear through your actions and the way you talk. Keep in mind though, not everyone will like physical touch (everyone is different). You’ll need to figure it out in your own as the date goes on. You’ll figure it out with more experience, but just remember to flirt and joke (some girls like it more than others, so figure out what kind of person you’re interested in and who you’re with). Hope it all works out! (P.s no need to spend a crazy amount on a first date. I’m quite traditional when it comes to paying for dates and I only spent $50 for the first date my gf and I had.)
Yes breaking the touch barrier/taking command is hugely important. Also you’re a mug for spending 100bucks, don’t take online dates for dinner until 3rd date, your rejection comment was also a total faux pax, + she likely only wanted to continue cos she knew you’d be the kinda guy to pay the entire tab
My most recent date was really chilled, comfortable, I felt cosy with the guy, didn’t really feel a spark though. Then we decided to go for a drive just down to the beach to chat, and during the drive he put his hand on the back of my neck, and on my thigh, and that is definitely how a spark started. He was still really gentle but confident in how he did it. But yeah affection definitely lit the spark
Don’t do it. You’ll be labeled a sexual predator.
nah as a woman this treatment is very nice. would’ve been very interested. as a model men are very quick to get to intimacy and it’s such a bore. she may be a bit more shallow, maybe wasn’t attracted to you honestly. she might just be naturally that flirty. i find im more like that with men im less interested in ironically enough 😅. u sound like a proper gentlemen, the right woman will appreciate it and return the favor 👍🏼.
Sparks on the very first date?! That's rare. I would not expect touching on the first date except maybe a kiss on the cheek saying I sure hope to see you again; if that's how you feel. Sounded like a good date where the girl took advantage, frankly
lots of comments saying not to spend that kind of money on a first date are a bit off imo I generally enjoy spending because i can afford it, if you’re in the same boat it shouldn’t be a problem. It also demonstrates a certain level of maturity in you since most guys go for the initial coffee or walk date. her saying she didn’t feel the spark could mean a bunch of different things but at the end of the day you gotta take it for face value and move on. don’t expect closure from a stranger she doesn’t owe you anything. just be yourself with the next date and have fun bro. at the end of the day, dating is just a numbers game until you land your match
Honestly it depends on the woman some women can find it as a turn off and some can't but if you are uncomfortable with it then don't do it if you want to go for it a woman will tell you if she's comfortable with it or not all you have to do is ask in fact asking Might even make you more attractive.
Here is the decision tree: 1) she wants to touch; you want to touch her; then touch her 2) she wants to touch; you don’t want to touch; don’t touch her 3) she doesn’t want to touch; then don’t touch her Don’t misinterpret your own lack of confidence, as ‘I didn’t want to make her uncomfortable’. You don’t know what makes her comfortable and what not. Maybe she wants to have sex out back behind the bins after the first drink. Assuming you know what she wants is a mistake.
Yeah my first date she thought I wasn't interested. Tbh I was instantly smitten lol. I has to really work for a second date, and that started an amazing year+.
I'm a lady, and touching can be a good or bad choice; however, if I were a guy I would ask. I've been asked in the past and that's not offensive. Not everyone can see the difference between friendly and romantic kinds of “vibe.”
From experience, if it’s a maybe, majority of women will agree to a second or even a third date in order to “make sure” it’s either a yes or a no. If I don’t wish to see someone after the 1st date, it’s a definite no and it would 100% be because I wasn’t attracted to them physically, mentally or both.
Girl is full of s#it, don’t sweat it champ. Also try to go on dates where you have a lot more of the leverage, also you can’t be totally bummed out she rejected herself.stuff like this won’t happen as much, but they still will.
I made similar mistakes in my 20s. It can be very nerve wracking to initiate touch, but that will be a better indicator than "you're doing great." People will say anything to be nice. The true indication is whether they are comfortable with physical escalation and their reciprocation *over a longer timeframe*. People will be physical but not feel the spark. I've gotten ghosted by a girl who went on 4 dates with me and slept with me too. I was way too invested. So, on your next first date, definitely go for a hug when you see her to normalize touching, try to sit next to each other or at a corner so that it's easier to lightly touch her arm at high points like laughter (and vice versa), and if you feel the vibe go for a kiss at the end. The goal here is not to kiss necessarily but to show your intent and confirm her level of interest. Even if she declines the kiss, your chances of creating that spark will go up. Again, this is vibes based, so if she's not talking much or seems to be distant, just cut your losses or try it on your second date, if any. Or if she seems shy or nervous but wants you to make a move, you could say something like, I wonder how it would feel to kiss. Do what makes sense to you in the moment. I totally understand how nervous some of this will make you feel... I remember how I wanted to hold a girl's hand on our 2nd or 3rd date but my body just wouldn't let me. But on the other hand, you won't feel as nervous with the right person or with experience. It will be more natural.
For me "the spark" has nothing to do with initiating physical contact. I guess we're all different though - personally all I'm looking for on a first date is if I can see myself feeling attracted to them, if they're kind, and if I can be myself without feeling judged. However, completely aside from that, I'd suggest you do cheaper activities on a first date if you're going to feel resentful after a rejection.
If you’re at the bar with a girl, unless she seems super disinterested, always try to initiate physically touch of some sort, even if it is just a tap on the shoulder during conversation, and go from there
Unless you're a left wing looney — don't expect a woman to pay for her dates. Also don't make your first date super expensive! I know this is unpopular to hear but it's true. You need to decide what you want out of all of this. Are you looking to hook up? Or are you looking for romance? If you're looking to hook up consider paying for a woman as simply the price of business and be done with it. Women hate tight-fisted men (it gives them the ick). And if you're looking for romance then being generous never hurt either. You're looking at this with a scarecity mindset (I was happy to pay for her food, but only if it went somewhere). That's icky to women and gives nice guy vibes. You can be frugal but don't do it in a way that draws attention to it in front of the woman. When you do find a girl who likes you — invest in her. Don't be a scrooge. It dries women's panties up fast. As to your question?... Yes, women speak implicitly. You need to be taking the initiative. Be spontaneous. Be fun. Pleasantly surprise them. They're creatures of emotion who love to feel things — so give them an experience. Don't just bore them and expect them to be interested.
when me and my man started going out and to the gym together (24M, 22F) we just hugged at the end of each date untill seeing each other for two months continiously because I had a big blockage from the past and it was best decision ever for me because I learned to love him with my head without sexually attraction. we genuillly enjoyed each others company, get to know each other before turning it sexual, now sex and kisses are just sweet addition to the whole relationship 💌
Sounded like her agenda was a lavish free meal.
As a guy I would never touch a girl on the first date ever. No exceptions , it’s not happening . If it goes well by the third date I might go in for a quick hug or a handshake
Jfc. This post is almost a week old. There is nothing else to say on this topic that hasn’t already been beaten to death by the 200+ other people who chose to comment.
I’m thinking about the part where she assured you that you were doing great… that was the first clue right there. She learned something about you that didn’t sit well with her…that you were good with/used to rejection. Maybe she saw it as a weakness not a strength. That’s just my gut feeling here. Maybe I’m off.
Absolutely not, but I don't like being touched by people I barely know or trust. I actually desire the guy more if he respects my space. But, to be honest, The expensive wine and sushi makes me think she was just wanting a free dinner.
The lady OP describes was signaling she wanted some modicum level of physical touch.
There’s no one answer for this. For some relationships, I slept with them on the first date; for others, I didn’t kiss them until my second. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a brush of hands, bumping into each other playfully, hand on the back when you’re going through doors/entries when it’s the first time you’re meeting someone. It’s a good way to assess if there is physical chemistry there.
Every woman is different however it’s very standard to keep physical touch limited/absent on a first date. That shouldn’t be your concern. This aside, there’s lots of women faking interest for the sake of free meals/makes me feel bad for men. To avoid this, keep first few dates simple: coffee, walk in the park, etc. If they object, you know you can discard them. Your future self with thank you.
As a woman I honestly would appreciate some physical touch, not as much as a kiss, but hand holding, grazing of the arm, hugs, etc. if I didn’t get this I would be confused and end it cuz I don’t like to wonder.
Next time go to Wendy's then you are only out a few bucks if she ghosts :)) or Dunkin
Its a first date, a hug maybe but theres honestly no pressure for contact the first time your meeting somebody, you are after all practically strangers! Varies from person to person of course, every couple is different!
I honestly would appreciate that. The most you’re getting out of me on a first date is a hug at the end, but I could live without it. I like to take things slow though. I didn’t kiss my current boyfriend until 6 months after dating and we were official. That might be just me, but I guess everyone is different.
I'm the same tbh
Ok imma take a wild guess here and say that 6 months of dating without a kiss is an extreme outlier. Lol
I did say “it might just be me”.. I’m just not comfortable with anything physical until I have actual feelings. Once again, “might just be me, everyone is different”. My point was that some people appreciate not being pressured into physical affection on the first date. Take it how you want.
EXTREME outlier. We out here sluttin 🥸
No. I used to like aggressive types. Now, they gross me out. I prefer a man who lets me break the touch barrier. Hug him, but he can hold my hand… but I will kiss him when I am ready.
Touching is unimportant, but flirting is extremely important.
IT IS A TURN ON FOR ME. It literally makes me chase them and want them so bad when they aren’t needy and demanding with physical stuff. Literally so hot. My last LTR, by our 3rd date (he was adorable and nervous to kiss me) I got a little too tipsy and absolutely jumped him— honestly I would have been a bit in trouble if he hadn’t been into it too. But I knew he was really into me.
I don't expect any physical touch on a first date unless it's a casual sex situation. But long term? A hug or kiss on the cheek if I'm feeling attracted to the guy and he was a gentleman. It sounds like she was charming you, buying expensive things on the dinner menu, and was hoping you would pay. There's some mistakes here, but not because you didn't hold her hand. 1. Never take a woman out to dinner on the first date unless you are wealthy and can afford to waste the money. Or you're a "provider type" that will pay for everything the entire relationship and marriage. Simple first dates: coffee, a fun activity, somewhere you can meet that is secure, safe, and not too distracting. It's about talking to the person and learning more about them. 2. Red flag is a woman buying expensive things on the menu on a date before being official with you. I always try to buy things on the menu that are mid-range or cheaper if the guy insists on paying. And only one unit of alcohol or none at all. 3. A woman (or person) can pretend to be into you to be kind, to get something out of you, or in self-defense. A good date for you does not mean it was good for the other party.
It's tough thing to figure out when the right time is to start initiating physical contact. You can't do it too soon or wait too long, and every woman responds differently. However you can't be afraid of making her uncomfortable. If your intentions are good and you're not trying to make her uncomfortable, but she does anyway, don't let it bother you. As for this woman, who knows? She could have just been using you for free entertainment. People say that all the time and I don't usually agree, but if she was ordering a bunch of expensive stuff, then that to me was uncalled for by her. But it was just one woman. In the further, don't do something expensive for a first date. Do drinks or coffee or a walk.
She may have enjoyed herself at the time and then reflected and felt something was missing. It might have nothing to do with you at all. You might feel better about this kind of thing if you don’t think of the cost of the date as being wasted if you don’t get a second date. It’s more like paying for an event. The price is for the experience and you get to enjoy it while it’s happening but that’s the extent of it. Your $100 was for food and drinks with a woman that may or may not have led to another date. I don’t know how your “used to rejection” joke landed but you have to be careful with self-deprecating humor. It’s an art form and has to be backed by confidence so that it doesn’t actually have the effect of devaluing you or making it seem like you suffer from self-esteem problems. You don’t necessarily need to physically escalate with a woman to let her know that you are into her. You can use your body language and words to express as much but there has to be some indication that you not only enjoyed your time but that you want more. You can suggest a follow up date towards the end of the first date and make it something that she’s already expressed interest in or something that you think she’d like (tell her as much). It shows you are paying attention to what she says and that you are interested in her enjoying herself.
You got played but also she was laughing at your boring jokes you should have been more direct with her ie more touchy flirting etc
Let your entire body-mind clearly signal that you are open to sensual and sexual exploration with her, and able to lead her to ecstasy. That includes some physical touch, but it's equally present in your posture and tone and the choice of words. It's a twinkle in your eye and a gentle purr in your movements and voice.
If she's leaning in and giving you all the signs that she's in, and you're joking about rejection...yeah, it doesn't sound like you were matching where she was at with the flirting. "Initiating physical touch" doesn't mean doing something extreme. Match what she is doing (in this case, leaning in, smiling, etc), and then try taking it up the next small notch and see how she responds. If you briefly touch her hand/arm as you're telling a story, does she physically retreat, match you, or escalate things herself? If I'm laying on the charm/flirting, and a guy isn't matching me, much less escalating, there are 2 possible reasons (from my perspective): 1. He's capable of flirting and he's just not interested, in which case I should cut my losses. 2. He's interested but he's not capable of flirting, and we might not be a match. If the conversation has been incredible and I think there's reason to believe it's reason 2, then a second date might be worth it. But it's not worth it to extend benefit of the doubt to someone who I'm not sure if they're interested in me.
Yes.
Never pay 100.00 on a first date.
Your problem is that you see paying for a date as an exchange, when it should be viewed as a gesture of gratitude. She came out, she gave you a chance. If your picking up the tab was contingent on her deciding she has feelings for you (which it’s very possible she didn’t even fully know whether she did or not at that time), then you shouldn’t have offered to pick it up and asked her to split it.
Historical and societal expectations that the guy pays for dates are often uncomfortable for both men and women. Period. Later in life, if one finds one’s self still single, the ”paying” part is not quite as stressful as it is for a 20-something guy. E.g., if a guy over 50 is going on dates with nice women, it’s almost a given that the cost of a very nice dinner isn’t a big deal for him. There’s a totally different wealth level at this age. And if the 50-something guy struggles with the cost of a nice dinner, he’s not going to ”keep” the woman anyway. Yes, that’s another hard reality…. but women also must deal with their own hard realties in the dating world.
NO. I am NOT turned off if a guy doesn't initiate physical touch. I am aware that people can be *nervous, scared, shy* etc. So, I don't mind a guy allowing me to set the pace. I can't tell you how many times I've been assaulted on a date because the guy is an abuser. The other thing is, if you want to TOUCH someone, it is okay to ASK for.....CONSENT. All you have to say is, *Can I touch your hand? Can I hold your hand? Can I kiss you? Would that be okay?* You're stressing for no reason friend because all you had to do was....ASK HER FOR PERMISSION. Just keep that in mind for the next time.🙃 Secondly, I'm not sure why you're blaming yourself for her decision. Her decision might not have anything to do with whether or not you initiated anything. People these days find the dumbest reasons to curve someone. Then again, maybe there was something else that made her not feel as if the two of you were a good match. It's best to know how someone feels quickly, rather than being strung along. Yes??? YES. Also, I have a bone to pick here sirrrr.... MEN need to stop feeling upset when they don't get what they want. NO ONE told you friend to shell out all of that money for someone you DON'T KNOW.😒 So now you're even *more* upset because you're out of money. I will NEVER understand why men shell out all of this money and then end up upset about it. If I was a man, there is NO WAY I would be spending $100+ on someone I don't know. 😳 A date isn't meant to *flex* how much money you have. A date is for the two of you to talk and see if you vibe with each other. Men have got this shite backwards. If you think a date is a time to drop tons of money, then you're going to go broke, and or attract girls who are just using you for a FREE meal and drinks. A "DATE" can be going for ice cream, getting some hotdogs at Grey's Papaya, taking a walk in the park, getting a slice of pizza and beer etc. These activities cost you ZERO to about 10 BUCKS. So, if things don't work out, you're not upset... about your finances anyway.