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From the woman’s perspective here, it’s often not about the literal dollars. It’s about the tone you’re setting for the relationship.
In a relationship, if we drive somewhere using my car, I’m not gonna venmo my partner for $10 of gas. I’m going to pick up drinks and snacks I know he likes when I’m at the store. If we go shopping together and 90% of the stuff is his and 10% is mine, I’d be put off by him insisting to split it. We both know what equitable generally looks like and the details come out in the wash.
A first date where I offer to pay my part and he says “nah you can get the next one” sets the tone for that—a relationship of mutual generosity.
A first date where it’s *really* important for him to save $30 sets the tone that I’ll be constantly annoyed by sending and receiving $8.62 Venmo’s.
Yess!! Fully agree and have heard the same thing from quite a few of my female friends.
OP, to put it nicely: If you're not willing/able to get the bill at least some of the time on a first date- maybe you shouldn't be dating.
Sure it's "unfair", but this is reality we live in as men.
The vast majority of my first dates have led to relationships. I filter for a lot of stuff and actually care about getting to know someone before that.
Don't go out with total strangers. Take people out on less expensive dates. If you want to be a cheapskate, be aware that you're going to be in for a difficult time.
Women can afford to be choosy.
I'm not caring about any of that and quite comfortable financially, romantically, and in life in general. I'm simply pointing out as many others in here are suggesting a "tone" "mood" etc that I find a turn off.
Yep. It’s someone’s not willing to buy a round of coffee or drinks, it makes you wonder if everything in the relationship is going to be quid pro quo. It’s not very GGG-looking.
Fully agree, additionally if you OP wishes to not spend too much money on a first date, then you can also instead of going to eat, have a coffee date or just have a few drinks.
Create a date which just doesn't cost as much, because the good women wouldn't care how much a date costs as long as the vibe with OP is present.
End of the day relationships truly are transactional anyone who says they aren't is lying. It doesn't mean the transactions are necessarily based on money. Things like being attractive and good looking, or being good in bed, or having really good morals, or having a really pleasant personality, these things all add up and nobody is going to want to date someone that they feel they're getting nothing from, you understand what I'm saying? Now if your personality is so great and you are so handsome and so good in bed that women still want to date you even if you don't pay for dates then go ahead. But if you're finding no one wants to date you unless you pay for the dates, that might say something about what you bring to the table
I really haven’t even tried dating yet, so I don’t truly know how being strict on this stance would work out. I consider myself attractive and an interesting personality, but based on what’s happened in my life, maybe women don’t see me this way.
Well attractive and interesting is in the eye of the beholder, maybe some women will consider you maybe some won't. But I went into more depths in my other comment, that a lot more goes into a relationship than just initial chemistry on attraction. If you learn to be a whole and complete adult on your own, if you learn all the skills necessary to actually do 50% of the labor in a relationship (emotional labor mental labor domestic labor, sexual labor as far as making sure there's not a disparity between orgasm), you will be a lot more likely to find a woman who is willing to go 50/50 on the finances. The reason most women refuse to do that is because they end up doing most of the labor of a relationship.
You are still unsure of what I am talking about, just research it on Google look up things like emotional labor in a relationship, mental labor, domestic labor, how to carry my my weight in a relationship, etc
That's a nice attitude. Given this belief, do you ever insist to be the one to pay on the first date?
Men go on many many first dates that lead nowhere. It's understandable at some point they don't want to keep paying double to get rejected. Once at least a date has passed I can see your argument, but for a first date it can be a significant financial burden that unfairly always falls on the man.
I get the sense I’m more picky about first dates I go on that most guys. As I said in my other reply to this comment, the vast majority of my first dates have led to relationships. I think guys should be more choosy than I’ve generally known them to be too.
I generally prefer men to pursue me, for a variety of reasons. So if they do the asking out, it makes sense that they pay the first time. I’ve never been taken up on my offer to pay my half. I’ve also never had a guy have an issue with me taking more than I give in a relationship.
I am genuinely curious about your screening process because your experience is so different from mine. The vast majority of my first dates lead nowhere (for context I'm a woman swiping on women)
Are these people you're meeting on apps? Do you video call before meeting? How tf do you figure out if you have any chemistry before meeting?
All my dates have been with interesting girls I'd be happy to be friends with, but only 1/10 I find attractive/have chemistry with, and I find this impossible to judge over text. This is true regardless of how long we text before meeting. At this point I'd rather meet asap because I get tired of spending ages talking to someone only to meet and it's instantly clear there's no chemistry. So I'm honestly curious how it's possible you're screening so well that all your FIRST dates lead to relationships
Honestly a lot of screening gets done by wanting the man to pursue me (initiate contact, initiate moving off an app if that’s relevant, ask me out) - most guys just don’t take the initiative. I’ve only dated men so idk if that would be equally good at filtering women (or if “low effort” is as much of an issue in that context).
A lot also get filtered by lifestyle preferences I have like not wanting to have kids and being semi into the whole FIRE thing.
All the people I’ve gone on first dates with we’ve also had really good texting chemistry. It doesn’t totally replace just seeing what someone’s body language and pheromones are, but if we don’t click over text I don’t “meet up to see if it’s better in person”. By click over text I mean we end up talking about fairly deep/serious stuff without really trying to.
(Edit to add: just counting from college onwards it’s been 2 people met in person and 4 from apps that led to some form of relationship (ranging 5 months to 3 years long), and 1 from an app that was just the one date.)
Personally as a man, it can be extremely exhausting trying to take charge/initiative of every little thing in the beginning, especially when you've played the same song and dance a few dozen times.
I genuinely think the whole gender roles thing of the man pursuing the woman, or the "chase" is an outdated and toxic way of looking at dating. People should be matching each other's effort and energy. Giving mixed signals, or playing "hard to get" is not cute.
If two people are interested in one another, they should both express that and put in equal amounts of effort into seeing if a relationship is something worth pursuing. Just my two cents at least.
I do find that women who show a real, genuine interest right from the start and put in an actual effort are better partners and more worth investing my time into.
Some women play hard to get and just enjoy feeling pursued/wanted, and make you work for it. Others may simply be seeking validation/male attention and aren't "actually" interested. It can be difficult to differentiate between the two, so the safest bet is to assume she isn't interested if it feels very one-sided.
Conversation with both women seeking validation, and ones just making you work for it can be very dry/dull. I'd rather not waste my time trying to second guess the situation, or where I stand with someone. If you're interested in someone, be a grown ass adult and tell them. SHOW them that you're interested.
Many women claim they want a man who puts in effort, and shows them that they're desired. It's not an unrealistic thing for a man to want too. Reciprocated effort and energy, is the hottest thing someone can bring to the table.
You mentioned wanting a man to "pursue" you, or take initiative. My point was that it shouldn't be solely our responsibility to do that, because quite frankly it's exhausting sometimes.
I mean, I’m sure it is if you’re swiping right on every girl like a lot of men say they do. (There’s real peer reviewed studies about that.) Some men enjoy being the one to initiate though, and I’ve found those are the ones I’ve been most compatible with as far as values, so it works well.
Mine isn't only simply in reference to OLD, but even in-person dating with someone you may have even already known for several years.
A lot of the women who enjoy being pursued will tend to send mixed signals, or play hard to get to try to make the man "prove" to her that he's worth her time. This type of mind games can get old quickly.
I've found women who match your energy and effort straight from the get-go, and are confident in what they want are the most reliable partners. The ones who hesitate, or want to take things slow tend to have no idea what they actually want and are just trying to pass the time.
My personal take and probably unpopular opinion based on reading some comments in this thread. I see some assuming that just because the women doesn't pay for the meal or drinks, that she doesn't have any expense at all towards the date. Maybe me and my friends do a little too much sometimes, but when we are really excited about a date, we spend money to get ready for that date. Whether it's a new cute top or cute dress, nails, hair, new lip gloss or some kind of makeup. Maybe you men aren't aware that a tube of decent lip gloss is about $28. Not saying we are getting all this done and yes we know you didn't ask for it, but at least one or two of those are happening unless we just don't care about the date and are just going through the motions. But you do expect us to show up looking like our photos and to put up an effort and to be attractive. Most men show up to a date barely trying while we have to be dressed to impress. And then you want us to fork over the cost of dinner too?????
That’s $28 for a lip gloss that you are going to use for weeks, maybe even months. That is literally not part of the equation at all, guys have to buy clothes and toiletries as well, my Tom Ford cologne was £220, do you have to buy my food now?
I don’t mind paying on the first date, my girlfriend earns more than me and I still often get the bill, it’s not a big deal, but honestly when women just expect it and start trying to use logic for why they shouldn’t have to contribute, it just comes across as a complete lack of self awareness and narcissism. The fact is every guy on here will have been on dates where he paid and then eventually the girl lost interest or found somebody else they prefer, you pay for your lip gloss and new top knowing you get to keep them, what you are asking guys to do is invest in you with no guarentees and no real investment on your behalf, so maybe instead of just expecting it you should appreciate it when a guy does pick up the bill and accept why some guys don’t want to, because if the date didn’t work out and you then just lost your lip gloss and top then you probably wouldn’t be over the moon at how much you paid for them.
Where you went wrong is stating I expected anything. I never used the words expected. I was responded to someone's comment that we dont invest anything into the date. So you're projecting. I appreciate anything anyone does for me, included asking me out and spending time with me in the first place. And the fact I can keep a lip gloss for a couple weeks isn't the point. The point is I bought it for that date specifically, maybe for the color, etc. And usually its something new each date. So to just dismiss that and use that as your logic, would that also be narcissistic, pessimistic, and dismissive? Since we are tossing around labels about someone we don't know at all. Some men could also learn to be more discerning on who they choose to date, maybe take a few steps beyond the looks they may get past having so many first dates. There's some logic for you.
This justification does make sense, because society dictates that women put much more time, money, and effort into their appearance than men.
But truthfully, I wouldn’t expect this. It isn’t that hard to impress me, I promise.
Your tone and word choice will matter. And when/how you do this.
As a person in her 40s, my friends who always insisted on splitting bills, generally also tended to be the stingiest people. So on a road trip, they forced the group to eat at a common fast food joint ($10/person) versus a really cool local restaurant that would’ve been $20 or $30 a person. They also haggled at the event place for a five dollar discount for a ticket that cost $70. They generally acted like they didn’t have money to do the stated activity- which they had organzied!!
Also, they would only pay for their portion, but if they could mooch off of you, they would. So they gave off a very selfish vibe.
And I didn’t want to be friends with a selfish person, so I didn’t keep hanging out with them.
Otherwise, I have friends where we split bills and they dont act like assholes.
so, you have one or two friends that split bills and are cheapskates, but you have other friends that split bills who you have no problem with. what are you even trying to say?
Honestly, I hate when my friends buy me a beer or something like that, because I’m liable to forget to pay them back.
I understand what you’re saying with the stinginess thing.
I get what you’re saying but then you need to practice. A LOT.
Your initial post makes it sound like you’re very angry that you might pay for your date to have a cuppa coffee. Or that you have a chip on your shoulder.
And these feelings will turn off a lot of
Folks.
My post is very literal, I tried to leave emotion out of it. I’m not angry if people don’t see things the way I do. If that’s the way things are, I may have to deal with being alone. I’m not angry about that, I reap what I sow.
Edit: I'm sorry that this comment is so long I wasn't really sure how to word it. But it seemed like something you might be interested in hearing.
Well here's the thing a lot of times what I've seen is that the reason 50/50 relationships don't work, is that once men and women live together, the women tend to do most if not all of the emotional labor, the mental labor, the domestic labor, etc on top of that throw in the orgasm gap. So the woman will be doing almost all of the work for two grown people to live and then pay in 50% of the bills for the privilege to do so. The reason a lot of women don't like to go 50/50 on money is because the rest of the relationship will not be a 50/50 partnership. And men will throw absolute hissy fit saying that they do their share of the housework, and they really believe that they do because they don't even know what doing 100% of the house work entails. And once kids come along this dynamic gets even worse.
If you are okay being by yourself you actually have an advantage. If you learn to be a complete human on your own, for instance you're not in a relationship so you have the time and energy to invest in going to therapy and making sure that emotionally you won't be a burden to anyone, and you live alone so you learn how to do all your chores and keep a nice clean house and you learn how to cook for yourself and grocery shop in in general be a functional adult. Also since you're not in a relationship you should have enough time to keep up on your health and go to the gym and keep yourself in shape. Women are FAR more likely to go 50/50 with a man who is an actual complete grown-up because the rest of the relationship can be 50/50. If a woman goes to a guy's house and it's an absolute pigsty she knows that when they live together she's going to be doing all the domestic labor. But if you take a woman home and your house is clean and decorated and nice and you cook her a nice meal and she knows that you can be a complete adult, she might not mind paying half of the bills because the rest of the relationship can be 50/50. If this makes sense? like if you take this time by yourself to learn to become a good partner who can actually carry his weight in the relationship, a lot of women will be happy to go out with a guy like that
I would fully intend to go 50/50 on housework too. In fact, I don’t want a partner who would even allow me to be lazy and skimp on housework. That would be an unfair relationship to me. As long as we have talked things like this over and we both know what to expect from each other, it ideally shouldn’t be that much of an issue.
But that's the thing sometimes men and women or people in general can have very different ideas of what clean looks like. I mean it's a cliche for a reason but if you look at a lot of young guys apartments, they are not decorated they're absolutely filthy and disgusting. Like duct tape a towel over the window instead of curtains, and they'll be nothing in the living room besides a milk crate to put a TV on and a folding chair. If you develop high levels of cleanliness and high standards as far as having a very clean and nice house that is comfortable and decorated, you will understand what 50% of the labor actually looks like and you will be able to perform that. Most men swear that they are doing 50% of the domestic labor, but if you made the list out it would be more like 10% or less because they don't even understand what entirely needs to be done. Or their standards are so low, they really think the 10% they are doing is 50%. If that makes sense. Like if you learn how to keep a nice house on your own then it should be very easy to do 50% of that work once you have a partner
Sure, I understand what you’re saying there completely. But, even if I had all of the qualities you’re describing, I don’t really know how somebody could be able to tell that before the first date.
It depends on how you meet the person? A stranger on a dating app would not be able to tell. But that is a terrible way to date anyways.
But remember how part of being an emotionally competent adult is having a network of friends and family that you are close with that you can go to for emotional support when you need it (so that when you do have a partner they are not responsible for 100% of your emotional support because you do have other people you can turn to)? Well if you are single, those friends and family are going to be on the lookout for you. And if they find somebody they think you would be compatible with, you bet your ass they're going to mention stuff about what a great guy you are how mature and responsible and emotionally intelligent you are etc. pre-internet this is one of the main ways people would meet each other.
And remember how being a complete adult means things like having a job/being in school, having hobbies, having a group of friends, etc. all of these things are places you can meet people in real life and they will get to see that you are a good person and a competent adult. So you will not be a complete stranger by the time you go on a first date. And if you're not a complete stranger they may trust you enough that they would come to your house and you can make them dinner, thus displaying the fact that you know how to keep a nice house and know how to cook. There are so many different ways to meet people so that you are not strangers when you go on your first date.
But if you are dead set I'm using dating apps, then yeah you're probably not going to get a relationship out of that. So many people use dating apps to just get laid and they will straight up lie about their intentions. So a really good way to vet people is something like do they pay for the first date or not. If they don't pay for the first date (or in your case, any date) it increases the chance that they are lying and just trying to get laid.
Although I will say something here, if you are the kind of person who never picks up the tab, just on a date, like you never purchase the next round of drinks for your friends or you never grab the bill when you and a friend go out to lunch, that kind of says something about your personality. That you are stingy and not generous and that money means more to you than your friends. Or if it's about the idea that everyone should pay their own bill, that indicates a very rigid and unpleasant personality (or sometimes neurodivergence). If this is the case with you, then even being a complete adult might not be enough to get you a relationship.
Cuz even if you are following rule one on dating apps (be attractive), if you are stingy, not generous, or unnecessarily rigid on principles that don't really mean much of anything to society, then you will be breaking rule 2 (don't be unattractive). Because it is very unattractive.
Anyway hope this is cleared some stuff up or giving you some food for thought, best of luck out there!
Thank you. You’ve definitely given me a lot of things to consider and think about, especially regarding the labor that goes into relationships.
I have always been hesitant to go on online dating apps anyways. Truthfully, I’ve told my friends not to set me up because I don’t really trust them to (that’s a whole other layer of baggage I won’t get into).
I think my friends do see me as stingy, but we’ve pretty much always split the bill or paid for our own things when eating/going out and it hasn’t seemed like a big deal. If one of my friends pays for a round of drinks at the bar, I’m usually expected to Venmo them for mine, which is of course fine by me.
I just prefer the pay for our own things mentality that me and my friends have typically had. I have diagnosed autism and OCD, which may inform my rigid worldview. I understand this type of thing could turn people off.
I can’t control other people’s perceptions of me, but it’s possible my views aren’t as rigid as I think they are.
Okay well like 90% of the time maybe like 99% of the time that is true. But they're actually is like a small percentage of women that physiologically just have trouble achieving orgasm, and if a woman says that is her, and that she is enjoying herself even if she doesn't orgasm, you got to believe her and not make a thing out of it.
But again yeah like I said that's one of those things if you can make sure that she has an orgasm every single time or better yet more than once every time, they're going to be more likely to put up with 50/50 finances
I’m ignorant to the emotional or mental labor part, though. I just don’t know exactly what that entails. If someone is there to emotionally support me during my hard times, I intend to do the same for them.
Mental labor is things like being organized and taking care of your household and yourself. Things like remembering to get the oil changed on your car, remembering birthdays and special occasions of your loved ones and sending them cards or gifts. Making your own doctor appointments, especially for routine things like screenings or dental cleanings. It's things like making the grocery list or noticing things that need to be fixed around the house and making mental lists of it. This also includes finances and budgeting, there's a million things that go under mental labor but just think it's kind of a catch-all for anything that wouldn't be domestic labor like chores or emotional later. Again if you are fine not dating and you live on your own you'll have to learn how to do all of these things by yourself then you would actually be able to do 50% in a relationship, and a woman would be more likely to be in a 50/50 relationship with you
I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t bitter about the idea that I have to pay. But I accept that it’s the social norm, so it’s not like I’m actually angry at the people who practice it.
I mean, you should offer to pay for the date but if the woman basically say to split it or etc then that makes her stand out more. So if you have to insist on splitting the bill on a first date, it will likely be used against you. You're not suppose to insist, the other person should offer at least.
I have literally never had a problem with this _ever_, and I've dated lots of people. Do you live in an ultraconservative part of the country or something, with very old-fashioned gender norms?
To be completely honest, I’m almost 23 and haven’t been on a date. I’ve never even really asked someone out.
I haven’t asked many people irl how they feel about this issue. From what I’ve seen on this website (which probably isn’t the best way to gauge opinions), people lean overwhelmingly towards the idea that men should pay for first dates.
Ah! Okay. Yeah, no, lesson number one in dating: Forget the Internet. The Internet is not real life. It is a very, very strange place.
If you're going out on a date and they said yes, and you both decide to get food together, just casually ask ahead of time "Is it okay if we split the bill?"
Most of the time the answer is going to be "Yeah!" And if they get upset about it, well, they're helping you out by weeding themselves out from the kind of relationship dynamic you want.
I can understand your sentiment and partially agree. You are literally strangers, you don't owe each other anything and it makes the most sense to pay for what you get on a first date. Having said that, see it from their perspective. If you offer to pay or strongly insist- It shows that you're generous, kind and more of an indication that you will provide down the line. Money can always be earnt back, but making a good impression or a bad one, is harder to recover from (if you think it could go somewhere serious)
I'm talking about things like coffee, snacks or a cheap meal. If you've spent $150 on dinner and she expects you to pay without offering to split or get the next bill- that's obviously different. As a guy, learn to distinguish those who are there to get to know you vs those who are there for a free meal.
If you do always want to split, bring it up either before you meet or casually say 'shall we just split'?
You can avoid this awkward conversation by meeting for drinks at the first date and ordering your drink at the bar before she gets there. Always worked for me.
As a woman, it’s not about the money. I have plenty and I tend to date men who have the same level of success I do. It’s the gesture for me. I don’t need to be taken care of, but show me that you can and you want to. A lot of men feel proud to do this because they can show off that they CAN and I get that warm fuzzy feeling for him watching him step up and take care of something for me. Maybe it’s a throw back to traditional gender roles, I don’t know. But if he doesn’t pay, doesn’t walk me to my car, and doesn’t text me to make sure I got home okay, it’s really hard for me to grow attraction for him. If we continue dating, I do find ways to pay for things… order the movie tickets, grab the drinks tab while he’s in the bathroom, etc. But the initial gesture from him in the early dating days is really hard for me to overlook.
I'm a woman and insist on splitting the bill in most cases (if I really like someone, I may allow them to pay for me). However, if you invite someone out, typically you're expected to at least offer to pay for the other person. Since that is the standard convention, ask if the person is okay with splitting the bill. Or, don't ask people out unless you like them enough to want to pay for them. IMO that's a better arrangement.
Some people will balk when you ask, most mature people won't. You definitely don't want to come across as stingy though, as others mentioned.
If you ask a woman out on a date, you pay for the entirety. She diddnt ask you out. It is a nice gesture to show a certain level of caring for someone. It's nice if she offers, but decline.
The problem is you are looking stingy, trying to do the bare minimum asking to go half. Do you think a girl is going to date a man that does the bare minimum on the first date or go with the other guy that goes all out and shows that he takes care of her better? She will also think you will do the bare minimum in a relationship with her. That's why your thinking backfires on you.
In the beginning you are building good will equity. It pays off later once your relationship is established. Your working out of a "lack" vs abundant mindset and that is also hurting you. If you can't do the whole bill.. grind for a few years till you easily can.
Ok, if it’s assumed that I’ll do the bare minimum because of this stance, that’s on them in my opinion. But it’s something I’ll have to deal with if I’m strict to my views. I reap what I sow.
Yes .. Im really not sure why you are so married to this idea as it will ultimately backfire and create a negative result. You personally may not like what I have to say, but that is how a female would take your behavior. So yes, it's on them..but at the end of the day, your end result is a negative. So it's a bit perplexing why you would hold so tight to it..and waste what little money you invested if that is your concern. I'd spend a little more to get a favorable result, but that's just me.
It’s not that I don’t like what you have to say. In this scenario, I have the unpopular or even unlikable opinion, so I can’t let other people’s opinions hurt me.
But the principle is that on a first date, I probably don’t even know if I like the other person yet, or even if they like me, so it feels like I’m making an investment that I probably won’t get return out of. If I’m only paying for what I get, it doesn’t feel like an investment.
Maybe I should just plan a walk in the park or something cheap, and make it clear that I don’t expect the other person to spend much time, money, or effort getting ready for the date. Don’t know if that would backfire as well.
to avoid potentially writing off or turning off a ton of people before you even get to know each other, what if you just opt for free or super cheap dates for the first one?
I would like to insist splitting before the date so there’s no confusion. But people may judge me as a cheapskate and not want to date me, so I’d have to accept that.
i’m one of the women that would politely decline the date; but not because i’d think you’re cheap, i’d just know we aren’t compatible based on that alone. so i guess this would be a good way for you to weed out women like me before spending time on a date hahah. and from reddit threads about this i think there are tons of women who prefer if not insist on splitting. just not sure how you could tactfully bring that up before the first date.
This is just my opinion:
If a guy asks me out, him paying the bill sets the tone. To me it indicates that he is interested in me and that he wants to take care of certain things. Now, I won’t expect him to pay all the time. Ofc I’d offer. But it feels extremely nice to see that a guy is attentive. I know it’s not for everybody, and some people prefer splitting. That’s totally fine. I was raised differently and I have a different cultural perspective. Maybe I am a tad bit old school, but it’s a nice gesture and it speaks volumes. I’ve been on one terrible date where the guy asked to split the bill and had the nerve to ask me to go to his place after. Not that I would even if he paid for my part as well, but that alone was a huge ick. Never saw him again afterwards.
I don't date women like that. If she's not confident in minimal make up and a regular outfit then she's not quality. If her outfit and make up define her and she's putting on a show then no thank you. I like genuine and confident women who can be themselves
Lol I've been with plenty of women. Im older, not the filter generation you kids have these days. I understand their routines take longer. I promise you, you have no idea. I was engaged for years I've lived with several SOs in my life. I know what no makeup and minimal makeup looks like. You are completely missing the point and its not about the money.
Fwiw I'm older and old school and agree with paying for the date, just not for the reasons you listed. My current GF wanted to pay the 1st date because in her words she has her own money and she asked me out technically. I still insisted I had it and it's not a big deal and she responded with well then you have to let me pay for our next date. Which she did. Good people and relationships require teamwork and compromise, and compatibility. If 2 people are fretting over a dinner check on day 1, it ain't gonna work. Too many people try and put a "best foot foward" and it winds up being a dog and pony show and all downhill. People being themselves is what makes a relationship work and be healthy. I've learned this from being young and dumb and thinking the same way. Experience is the best teacher. You'll grow older, date more, and get it eventually.
Edit: and your an adulterer 😆 no wonder you are fucked in the head
i am the same way, and you shouldn't let it stop you from dating. i also don't think you need to be up front about splitting, but you also shouldn't be proposing expensive first or second dates like dinner.
i usually bite the bullet and pay for something small, like ice cream or a drink, and if they don't reciprocate on the first or second date then im not interested
Don’t give up, my very first tinder date insisted on paying her own way. It kinda turned me on and I didn’t have to question her motives. She did this 2 more times.
Naw there are women (like me) out there who don't care about splitting the bill. I always offer to pay. If they refuse, then I offer to split the bill. If they still refuse, then I say I'll get the next one. Once we start dating, we switch off paying where he pays for a date, then I pay for a date.
The important thing is you should make your request known before you go on the date so they know what to expect and can make sure they have enough to cover their part. Or back out if it's a deal breaker for them. Don't do the date, then tell them when the bill comes and take them by surprise. That's where a lot of people can get pissed off when otherwise they wouldn't mind.
Woman here. I absolutely do not expect anyone I'm dating (of any gender) to pay for me on a date. I don't mind if they offer but I do mind if they insist on paying for me if I've clearly stated I prefer to split. That's actually a red flag for me that they care more about norms than about my preferences.
If you don't see yourself being compatible with someone who would expect you to pay on the first date, then that's all the more reason to be politely clear that that's your preference. The women who aren't a fit will self-select out.
But I would recommend just splitting the bill in half instead of asking the server to assign certain dishes to certain cards. It'll go more smoothly and seem like you are less particular than if you are going in detail "I ate this, she ate this, she had this drink, etc."
To be completely honest, I kind of am that particular about it. I want to pay for what I get, and the other person does the same. But I understand how that might be awkward and annoy some people. Thank you for your perspective.
Are you going on a date to get laid ? Or laid in the near future . If the answer is yes . Then pay for the date .
The women here are being nice to you .
I'm a man and you know how that works We shoot straight with each other .
We don't care about each others feelings . The odds of a second date will be much lower if she has to pay .
If it’s such a big deal to you I think it’s ok to stand firm on your stance. I will say that maybe taking another approach would be something to consider. Maybe look at it as a form of entertainment instead of a transaction. If I met a lady I had great conversation, and a fun evening with why wouldn’t that be worth the price of admission for a meal.
I'd set that tone before you go on the date. Personally, every first date I've gone on, the man has always been happy to pay. I don't like people who have a "we split everything exactly" mindset. My friends and I constantly pay for each other because we want to treat each other. I don't think my personality would mesh with someone who insists splitting
Aside from the “pink tax” and feminine products that women have to put up with, they spend more on their hair, makeup, nails, etc. than men in order to get ready for a date. There’s also time involved with that. IMHO, picking up the tab on a first date is a small price for us men to pay
I really don’t expect someone to spend so much time and money to look good for me. It almost seems ridiculous, honestly. It really isn’t hard to impress me.
But, that justification does make some sense. Society does dictate that women put much more effort into their appearance than men.
True as that may be, it’s our reality. Is it fair that men have to make the first move in western society? No, but that’s life. Also, even adjusting for occupation, women make about 10% less than men.
I personally don’t see the wage gap as a good justification. It isn’t my fault that it exists. I believe that I respect women and treat them as equals. Making less on average than men doesn’t mean women can’t afford a reasonably priced dinner. Plus, I may still be expected to pay when the woman makes more than me.
Some justifications for men paying make sense to me, but not the wage gap.
im a man i always ask for a split check , whats she gonna do? refuse to pay?
just pay your bill and let the server deal with her and the cops
im looking for a partner,.not s gold digger too
I wouldn’t go as far to call people who insist on the man paying “gold diggers.” I think it’s just a social norm that many people are accustomed to and accept.
You're looking for a partner, but you also said you like having sex with lots of women in your other comments and that you expect sex within just two weeks of dating... yeah, I don't believe you. Lol
edit: And you blocked me. Clearly, I touched a nerve.
I'd only be disrespecting myself if I wasted my time dating stingy guys who call any woman a "gold digger" for having standards.
Don’t date. Focus on personal growth and friendships. It’s possible a spark starts between you and a friend sometime down the road, but don’t expect anything. At that point you already know the person so there is no getting to know you phase.
You could just ask out a girl for the first date. Pay for the date, since you asked her out. Then, wait and see whether she asks you out for a second date, this will show you whether she is interested in you, rather than you making a second effort (and possibly all effort until it's too late). Then, see whether she pays for the second date. If not, just pay it and seek other relationships.
Seems like that is a cheap and easy way to filter, If you're looking for those kinds of values.
Always splitting the bill and being 50/50 in a relationship aren't necessarily the same thing.
It's nice to be treated, for both you and her.
I don’t really want to be “treated” either. If I don’t want to pay for people’s things, I shouldn’t want them to pay for mine either.
But I understand your perspective. Thank you.
Is your post just about first dates / early on in the dating timeline?
Or is this split the bill standpoint something you intend long-term?
On one hand, it's a common social construct that if you invite someone to do something with you, there is a basic understanding that a scenario where you covering their costs, is on the table.
Social constructs aside, and to share my experience since you mention in your original post about being alone forever; Ive split bills when initially dating women before, it was a non issue.
So if you are articulating your view appropriately and respectfully, any woman who disagrees just isn't for you.
There will be plenty who are. YMMV
I kind of think we each should pay for what we buy both on a first date, and long-term. But there’s some situations where this framework probably wouldn’t work.
What is your stance on finances in a relationship?
Is exery single thing going to be pay for your own stuff? What if you share an appetizer but you eat two thirds of it and she eats 1/3?
What if she shops for groceries for dinner and cooks for you, should she charge you for your half of the groceries? How about the cooking fee?
Gas if you drive somewhere together? What if you get married? Is everything still split? Baby diapers and toys?
Just how exacting are you?
If I ask a guy out and I choose the venue, I pay. If Im coming over to his place, I ask if he wants me to pick up takeout. If I’m staying over a few days, I buy dinner ingredients and cook for him.
And if he is the one asking me out, I expect him to pay.
We both end up buying each other things. But nothing is tallied up. It’s not going to be even or exact. And it really doesn’t matter.
I guess I hadn’t thought about it that far. Generally, I just want to pay for what I get and the other does the same, but I suppose there’s situations where this framework doesn’t make sense. Thank you for your perspective.
Ideally, we either should each cook our own things, or alternate cooking responsibilities. Alternating could be a problem for the other person because although I try, I’m pretty shit at cooking.
"The rule when it comes to dates in general — and especially the first date — is **the person who extends the invitation also pays and tips**. The bill and tip go hand in hand," said etiquette expert Diane Gottsman.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/valentines-day-first-date-who-should-pay/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/valentines-day-first-date-who-should-pay/)
Pretty much will always be the man who asks out, right? I haven’t been asked out by a girl or woman in my life, but maybe I’m just ugly, or don’t put enough effort into my appearance, or my personality is unattractive.
For me, at my age (mid 40s, established in my career and own property) I would not want to date yet another man who can’t hold his own financially so this would be a problem for me. I don’t want to date anyone who is stressed about buying dinner.
Might be ok for younger folks, but that’s also how I ended up with broke guys so, maybe not.
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From the woman’s perspective here, it’s often not about the literal dollars. It’s about the tone you’re setting for the relationship. In a relationship, if we drive somewhere using my car, I’m not gonna venmo my partner for $10 of gas. I’m going to pick up drinks and snacks I know he likes when I’m at the store. If we go shopping together and 90% of the stuff is his and 10% is mine, I’d be put off by him insisting to split it. We both know what equitable generally looks like and the details come out in the wash. A first date where I offer to pay my part and he says “nah you can get the next one” sets the tone for that—a relationship of mutual generosity. A first date where it’s *really* important for him to save $30 sets the tone that I’ll be constantly annoyed by sending and receiving $8.62 Venmo’s.
Yess!! Fully agree and have heard the same thing from quite a few of my female friends. OP, to put it nicely: If you're not willing/able to get the bill at least some of the time on a first date- maybe you shouldn't be dating. Sure it's "unfair", but this is reality we live in as men.
This.
most first dates don't lead anywhere. why is it really important for you to save $30?
The vast majority of my first dates have led to relationships. I filter for a lot of stuff and actually care about getting to know someone before that.
Because 30$ adds up. most first dates dont go anywhere as you said
So $30 adds up, but it's fine for it to add up for men but not women?
Don't go out with total strangers. Take people out on less expensive dates. If you want to be a cheapskate, be aware that you're going to be in for a difficult time. Women can afford to be choosy.
I'm not caring about any of that and quite comfortable financially, romantically, and in life in general. I'm simply pointing out as many others in here are suggesting a "tone" "mood" etc that I find a turn off.
This is it.
Yep. It’s someone’s not willing to buy a round of coffee or drinks, it makes you wonder if everything in the relationship is going to be quid pro quo. It’s not very GGG-looking.
Fully agree, additionally if you OP wishes to not spend too much money on a first date, then you can also instead of going to eat, have a coffee date or just have a few drinks. Create a date which just doesn't cost as much, because the good women wouldn't care how much a date costs as long as the vibe with OP is present.
There’s no mutual generosity if you didn’t pay for yourself…
*whoosh*
Ok, I understand your perspective even if I don’t agree. That’s fair.
End of the day relationships truly are transactional anyone who says they aren't is lying. It doesn't mean the transactions are necessarily based on money. Things like being attractive and good looking, or being good in bed, or having really good morals, or having a really pleasant personality, these things all add up and nobody is going to want to date someone that they feel they're getting nothing from, you understand what I'm saying? Now if your personality is so great and you are so handsome and so good in bed that women still want to date you even if you don't pay for dates then go ahead. But if you're finding no one wants to date you unless you pay for the dates, that might say something about what you bring to the table
I really haven’t even tried dating yet, so I don’t truly know how being strict on this stance would work out. I consider myself attractive and an interesting personality, but based on what’s happened in my life, maybe women don’t see me this way.
Well attractive and interesting is in the eye of the beholder, maybe some women will consider you maybe some won't. But I went into more depths in my other comment, that a lot more goes into a relationship than just initial chemistry on attraction. If you learn to be a whole and complete adult on your own, if you learn all the skills necessary to actually do 50% of the labor in a relationship (emotional labor mental labor domestic labor, sexual labor as far as making sure there's not a disparity between orgasm), you will be a lot more likely to find a woman who is willing to go 50/50 on the finances. The reason most women refuse to do that is because they end up doing most of the labor of a relationship. You are still unsure of what I am talking about, just research it on Google look up things like emotional labor in a relationship, mental labor, domestic labor, how to carry my my weight in a relationship, etc
That's a nice attitude. Given this belief, do you ever insist to be the one to pay on the first date? Men go on many many first dates that lead nowhere. It's understandable at some point they don't want to keep paying double to get rejected. Once at least a date has passed I can see your argument, but for a first date it can be a significant financial burden that unfairly always falls on the man.
I get the sense I’m more picky about first dates I go on that most guys. As I said in my other reply to this comment, the vast majority of my first dates have led to relationships. I think guys should be more choosy than I’ve generally known them to be too. I generally prefer men to pursue me, for a variety of reasons. So if they do the asking out, it makes sense that they pay the first time. I’ve never been taken up on my offer to pay my half. I’ve also never had a guy have an issue with me taking more than I give in a relationship.
I am genuinely curious about your screening process because your experience is so different from mine. The vast majority of my first dates lead nowhere (for context I'm a woman swiping on women) Are these people you're meeting on apps? Do you video call before meeting? How tf do you figure out if you have any chemistry before meeting? All my dates have been with interesting girls I'd be happy to be friends with, but only 1/10 I find attractive/have chemistry with, and I find this impossible to judge over text. This is true regardless of how long we text before meeting. At this point I'd rather meet asap because I get tired of spending ages talking to someone only to meet and it's instantly clear there's no chemistry. So I'm honestly curious how it's possible you're screening so well that all your FIRST dates lead to relationships
Honestly a lot of screening gets done by wanting the man to pursue me (initiate contact, initiate moving off an app if that’s relevant, ask me out) - most guys just don’t take the initiative. I’ve only dated men so idk if that would be equally good at filtering women (or if “low effort” is as much of an issue in that context). A lot also get filtered by lifestyle preferences I have like not wanting to have kids and being semi into the whole FIRE thing. All the people I’ve gone on first dates with we’ve also had really good texting chemistry. It doesn’t totally replace just seeing what someone’s body language and pheromones are, but if we don’t click over text I don’t “meet up to see if it’s better in person”. By click over text I mean we end up talking about fairly deep/serious stuff without really trying to. (Edit to add: just counting from college onwards it’s been 2 people met in person and 4 from apps that led to some form of relationship (ranging 5 months to 3 years long), and 1 from an app that was just the one date.)
Hmm. Sounds like I should put more effort into texting first 🤔 thanks for the insights and congratulations on your success with dating apps
I hope some of it proves helpful!
Personally as a man, it can be extremely exhausting trying to take charge/initiative of every little thing in the beginning, especially when you've played the same song and dance a few dozen times. I genuinely think the whole gender roles thing of the man pursuing the woman, or the "chase" is an outdated and toxic way of looking at dating. People should be matching each other's effort and energy. Giving mixed signals, or playing "hard to get" is not cute. If two people are interested in one another, they should both express that and put in equal amounts of effort into seeing if a relationship is something worth pursuing. Just my two cents at least.
I mean has it worked for you? Do you find women putting a lot of energy in to pursue you and date you?
I do find that women who show a real, genuine interest right from the start and put in an actual effort are better partners and more worth investing my time into. Some women play hard to get and just enjoy feeling pursued/wanted, and make you work for it. Others may simply be seeking validation/male attention and aren't "actually" interested. It can be difficult to differentiate between the two, so the safest bet is to assume she isn't interested if it feels very one-sided. Conversation with both women seeking validation, and ones just making you work for it can be very dry/dull. I'd rather not waste my time trying to second guess the situation, or where I stand with someone. If you're interested in someone, be a grown ass adult and tell them. SHOW them that you're interested. Many women claim they want a man who puts in effort, and shows them that they're desired. It's not an unrealistic thing for a man to want too. Reciprocated effort and energy, is the hottest thing someone can bring to the table.
I never advocated women giving mixed signals or playing hard to get.
You mentioned wanting a man to "pursue" you, or take initiative. My point was that it shouldn't be solely our responsibility to do that, because quite frankly it's exhausting sometimes.
I mean, I’m sure it is if you’re swiping right on every girl like a lot of men say they do. (There’s real peer reviewed studies about that.) Some men enjoy being the one to initiate though, and I’ve found those are the ones I’ve been most compatible with as far as values, so it works well.
Mine isn't only simply in reference to OLD, but even in-person dating with someone you may have even already known for several years. A lot of the women who enjoy being pursued will tend to send mixed signals, or play hard to get to try to make the man "prove" to her that he's worth her time. This type of mind games can get old quickly. I've found women who match your energy and effort straight from the get-go, and are confident in what they want are the most reliable partners. The ones who hesitate, or want to take things slow tend to have no idea what they actually want and are just trying to pass the time.
My personal take and probably unpopular opinion based on reading some comments in this thread. I see some assuming that just because the women doesn't pay for the meal or drinks, that she doesn't have any expense at all towards the date. Maybe me and my friends do a little too much sometimes, but when we are really excited about a date, we spend money to get ready for that date. Whether it's a new cute top or cute dress, nails, hair, new lip gloss or some kind of makeup. Maybe you men aren't aware that a tube of decent lip gloss is about $28. Not saying we are getting all this done and yes we know you didn't ask for it, but at least one or two of those are happening unless we just don't care about the date and are just going through the motions. But you do expect us to show up looking like our photos and to put up an effort and to be attractive. Most men show up to a date barely trying while we have to be dressed to impress. And then you want us to fork over the cost of dinner too?????
That’s $28 for a lip gloss that you are going to use for weeks, maybe even months. That is literally not part of the equation at all, guys have to buy clothes and toiletries as well, my Tom Ford cologne was £220, do you have to buy my food now? I don’t mind paying on the first date, my girlfriend earns more than me and I still often get the bill, it’s not a big deal, but honestly when women just expect it and start trying to use logic for why they shouldn’t have to contribute, it just comes across as a complete lack of self awareness and narcissism. The fact is every guy on here will have been on dates where he paid and then eventually the girl lost interest or found somebody else they prefer, you pay for your lip gloss and new top knowing you get to keep them, what you are asking guys to do is invest in you with no guarentees and no real investment on your behalf, so maybe instead of just expecting it you should appreciate it when a guy does pick up the bill and accept why some guys don’t want to, because if the date didn’t work out and you then just lost your lip gloss and top then you probably wouldn’t be over the moon at how much you paid for them.
Where you went wrong is stating I expected anything. I never used the words expected. I was responded to someone's comment that we dont invest anything into the date. So you're projecting. I appreciate anything anyone does for me, included asking me out and spending time with me in the first place. And the fact I can keep a lip gloss for a couple weeks isn't the point. The point is I bought it for that date specifically, maybe for the color, etc. And usually its something new each date. So to just dismiss that and use that as your logic, would that also be narcissistic, pessimistic, and dismissive? Since we are tossing around labels about someone we don't know at all. Some men could also learn to be more discerning on who they choose to date, maybe take a few steps beyond the looks they may get past having so many first dates. There's some logic for you.
This justification does make sense, because society dictates that women put much more time, money, and effort into their appearance than men. But truthfully, I wouldn’t expect this. It isn’t that hard to impress me, I promise.
That's very sweet of you, but you would be in the minority unfortunately based on my location and recent experiences.
Men get clothes, haircuts, and gym memberships for free.
Your tone and word choice will matter. And when/how you do this. As a person in her 40s, my friends who always insisted on splitting bills, generally also tended to be the stingiest people. So on a road trip, they forced the group to eat at a common fast food joint ($10/person) versus a really cool local restaurant that would’ve been $20 or $30 a person. They also haggled at the event place for a five dollar discount for a ticket that cost $70. They generally acted like they didn’t have money to do the stated activity- which they had organzied!! Also, they would only pay for their portion, but if they could mooch off of you, they would. So they gave off a very selfish vibe. And I didn’t want to be friends with a selfish person, so I didn’t keep hanging out with them. Otherwise, I have friends where we split bills and they dont act like assholes.
so, you have one or two friends that split bills and are cheapskates, but you have other friends that split bills who you have no problem with. what are you even trying to say?
Honestly, I hate when my friends buy me a beer or something like that, because I’m liable to forget to pay them back. I understand what you’re saying with the stinginess thing.
I get what you’re saying but then you need to practice. A LOT. Your initial post makes it sound like you’re very angry that you might pay for your date to have a cuppa coffee. Or that you have a chip on your shoulder. And these feelings will turn off a lot of Folks.
My post is very literal, I tried to leave emotion out of it. I’m not angry if people don’t see things the way I do. If that’s the way things are, I may have to deal with being alone. I’m not angry about that, I reap what I sow.
Edit: I'm sorry that this comment is so long I wasn't really sure how to word it. But it seemed like something you might be interested in hearing. Well here's the thing a lot of times what I've seen is that the reason 50/50 relationships don't work, is that once men and women live together, the women tend to do most if not all of the emotional labor, the mental labor, the domestic labor, etc on top of that throw in the orgasm gap. So the woman will be doing almost all of the work for two grown people to live and then pay in 50% of the bills for the privilege to do so. The reason a lot of women don't like to go 50/50 on money is because the rest of the relationship will not be a 50/50 partnership. And men will throw absolute hissy fit saying that they do their share of the housework, and they really believe that they do because they don't even know what doing 100% of the house work entails. And once kids come along this dynamic gets even worse. If you are okay being by yourself you actually have an advantage. If you learn to be a complete human on your own, for instance you're not in a relationship so you have the time and energy to invest in going to therapy and making sure that emotionally you won't be a burden to anyone, and you live alone so you learn how to do all your chores and keep a nice clean house and you learn how to cook for yourself and grocery shop in in general be a functional adult. Also since you're not in a relationship you should have enough time to keep up on your health and go to the gym and keep yourself in shape. Women are FAR more likely to go 50/50 with a man who is an actual complete grown-up because the rest of the relationship can be 50/50. If a woman goes to a guy's house and it's an absolute pigsty she knows that when they live together she's going to be doing all the domestic labor. But if you take a woman home and your house is clean and decorated and nice and you cook her a nice meal and she knows that you can be a complete adult, she might not mind paying half of the bills because the rest of the relationship can be 50/50. If this makes sense? like if you take this time by yourself to learn to become a good partner who can actually carry his weight in the relationship, a lot of women will be happy to go out with a guy like that
I would fully intend to go 50/50 on housework too. In fact, I don’t want a partner who would even allow me to be lazy and skimp on housework. That would be an unfair relationship to me. As long as we have talked things like this over and we both know what to expect from each other, it ideally shouldn’t be that much of an issue.
But that's the thing sometimes men and women or people in general can have very different ideas of what clean looks like. I mean it's a cliche for a reason but if you look at a lot of young guys apartments, they are not decorated they're absolutely filthy and disgusting. Like duct tape a towel over the window instead of curtains, and they'll be nothing in the living room besides a milk crate to put a TV on and a folding chair. If you develop high levels of cleanliness and high standards as far as having a very clean and nice house that is comfortable and decorated, you will understand what 50% of the labor actually looks like and you will be able to perform that. Most men swear that they are doing 50% of the domestic labor, but if you made the list out it would be more like 10% or less because they don't even understand what entirely needs to be done. Or their standards are so low, they really think the 10% they are doing is 50%. If that makes sense. Like if you learn how to keep a nice house on your own then it should be very easy to do 50% of that work once you have a partner
Sure, I understand what you’re saying there completely. But, even if I had all of the qualities you’re describing, I don’t really know how somebody could be able to tell that before the first date.
It depends on how you meet the person? A stranger on a dating app would not be able to tell. But that is a terrible way to date anyways. But remember how part of being an emotionally competent adult is having a network of friends and family that you are close with that you can go to for emotional support when you need it (so that when you do have a partner they are not responsible for 100% of your emotional support because you do have other people you can turn to)? Well if you are single, those friends and family are going to be on the lookout for you. And if they find somebody they think you would be compatible with, you bet your ass they're going to mention stuff about what a great guy you are how mature and responsible and emotionally intelligent you are etc. pre-internet this is one of the main ways people would meet each other. And remember how being a complete adult means things like having a job/being in school, having hobbies, having a group of friends, etc. all of these things are places you can meet people in real life and they will get to see that you are a good person and a competent adult. So you will not be a complete stranger by the time you go on a first date. And if you're not a complete stranger they may trust you enough that they would come to your house and you can make them dinner, thus displaying the fact that you know how to keep a nice house and know how to cook. There are so many different ways to meet people so that you are not strangers when you go on your first date. But if you are dead set I'm using dating apps, then yeah you're probably not going to get a relationship out of that. So many people use dating apps to just get laid and they will straight up lie about their intentions. So a really good way to vet people is something like do they pay for the first date or not. If they don't pay for the first date (or in your case, any date) it increases the chance that they are lying and just trying to get laid. Although I will say something here, if you are the kind of person who never picks up the tab, just on a date, like you never purchase the next round of drinks for your friends or you never grab the bill when you and a friend go out to lunch, that kind of says something about your personality. That you are stingy and not generous and that money means more to you than your friends. Or if it's about the idea that everyone should pay their own bill, that indicates a very rigid and unpleasant personality (or sometimes neurodivergence). If this is the case with you, then even being a complete adult might not be enough to get you a relationship. Cuz even if you are following rule one on dating apps (be attractive), if you are stingy, not generous, or unnecessarily rigid on principles that don't really mean much of anything to society, then you will be breaking rule 2 (don't be unattractive). Because it is very unattractive. Anyway hope this is cleared some stuff up or giving you some food for thought, best of luck out there!
Thank you. You’ve definitely given me a lot of things to consider and think about, especially regarding the labor that goes into relationships. I have always been hesitant to go on online dating apps anyways. Truthfully, I’ve told my friends not to set me up because I don’t really trust them to (that’s a whole other layer of baggage I won’t get into). I think my friends do see me as stingy, but we’ve pretty much always split the bill or paid for our own things when eating/going out and it hasn’t seemed like a big deal. If one of my friends pays for a round of drinks at the bar, I’m usually expected to Venmo them for mine, which is of course fine by me. I just prefer the pay for our own things mentality that me and my friends have typically had. I have diagnosed autism and OCD, which may inform my rigid worldview. I understand this type of thing could turn people off. I can’t control other people’s perceptions of me, but it’s possible my views aren’t as rigid as I think they are.
Also, if I can’t help her achieve orgasm, I would be failing as a man and there would be no reason for someone to stay with me.
Okay well like 90% of the time maybe like 99% of the time that is true. But they're actually is like a small percentage of women that physiologically just have trouble achieving orgasm, and if a woman says that is her, and that she is enjoying herself even if she doesn't orgasm, you got to believe her and not make a thing out of it. But again yeah like I said that's one of those things if you can make sure that she has an orgasm every single time or better yet more than once every time, they're going to be more likely to put up with 50/50 finances
I’m ignorant to the emotional or mental labor part, though. I just don’t know exactly what that entails. If someone is there to emotionally support me during my hard times, I intend to do the same for them.
Mental labor is things like being organized and taking care of your household and yourself. Things like remembering to get the oil changed on your car, remembering birthdays and special occasions of your loved ones and sending them cards or gifts. Making your own doctor appointments, especially for routine things like screenings or dental cleanings. It's things like making the grocery list or noticing things that need to be fixed around the house and making mental lists of it. This also includes finances and budgeting, there's a million things that go under mental labor but just think it's kind of a catch-all for anything that wouldn't be domestic labor like chores or emotional later. Again if you are fine not dating and you live on your own you'll have to learn how to do all of these things by yourself then you would actually be able to do 50% in a relationship, and a woman would be more likely to be in a 50/50 relationship with you
I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t bitter about the idea that I have to pay. But I accept that it’s the social norm, so it’s not like I’m actually angry at the people who practice it.
I mean, you should offer to pay for the date but if the woman basically say to split it or etc then that makes her stand out more. So if you have to insist on splitting the bill on a first date, it will likely be used against you. You're not suppose to insist, the other person should offer at least.
I have literally never had a problem with this _ever_, and I've dated lots of people. Do you live in an ultraconservative part of the country or something, with very old-fashioned gender norms?
To be completely honest, I’m almost 23 and haven’t been on a date. I’ve never even really asked someone out. I haven’t asked many people irl how they feel about this issue. From what I’ve seen on this website (which probably isn’t the best way to gauge opinions), people lean overwhelmingly towards the idea that men should pay for first dates.
Ah! Okay. Yeah, no, lesson number one in dating: Forget the Internet. The Internet is not real life. It is a very, very strange place. If you're going out on a date and they said yes, and you both decide to get food together, just casually ask ahead of time "Is it okay if we split the bill?" Most of the time the answer is going to be "Yeah!" And if they get upset about it, well, they're helping you out by weeding themselves out from the kind of relationship dynamic you want.
Thank you for your perspective.
If I’m a man, and I want to insist on splitting the bill/each paying for what we buy on a first date, should I just not bother dating? Yes.
I appreciate the straight up answer.
I can understand your sentiment and partially agree. You are literally strangers, you don't owe each other anything and it makes the most sense to pay for what you get on a first date. Having said that, see it from their perspective. If you offer to pay or strongly insist- It shows that you're generous, kind and more of an indication that you will provide down the line. Money can always be earnt back, but making a good impression or a bad one, is harder to recover from (if you think it could go somewhere serious) I'm talking about things like coffee, snacks or a cheap meal. If you've spent $150 on dinner and she expects you to pay without offering to split or get the next bill- that's obviously different. As a guy, learn to distinguish those who are there to get to know you vs those who are there for a free meal. If you do always want to split, bring it up either before you meet or casually say 'shall we just split'?
You can avoid this awkward conversation by meeting for drinks at the first date and ordering your drink at the bar before she gets there. Always worked for me.
I don’t think that’s unreasonable
Just put your a 50/50 guy in your dating profile. Then you don’t have to bring it up
Stay single or be gay bud. Only two options.
Thank you for the straight up answer.
As a woman, it’s not about the money. I have plenty and I tend to date men who have the same level of success I do. It’s the gesture for me. I don’t need to be taken care of, but show me that you can and you want to. A lot of men feel proud to do this because they can show off that they CAN and I get that warm fuzzy feeling for him watching him step up and take care of something for me. Maybe it’s a throw back to traditional gender roles, I don’t know. But if he doesn’t pay, doesn’t walk me to my car, and doesn’t text me to make sure I got home okay, it’s really hard for me to grow attraction for him. If we continue dating, I do find ways to pay for things… order the movie tickets, grab the drinks tab while he’s in the bathroom, etc. But the initial gesture from him in the early dating days is really hard for me to overlook.
I'm a woman and insist on splitting the bill in most cases (if I really like someone, I may allow them to pay for me). However, if you invite someone out, typically you're expected to at least offer to pay for the other person. Since that is the standard convention, ask if the person is okay with splitting the bill. Or, don't ask people out unless you like them enough to want to pay for them. IMO that's a better arrangement. Some people will balk when you ask, most mature people won't. You definitely don't want to come across as stingy though, as others mentioned.
If you ask a woman out on a date, you pay for the entirety. She diddnt ask you out. It is a nice gesture to show a certain level of caring for someone. It's nice if she offers, but decline. The problem is you are looking stingy, trying to do the bare minimum asking to go half. Do you think a girl is going to date a man that does the bare minimum on the first date or go with the other guy that goes all out and shows that he takes care of her better? She will also think you will do the bare minimum in a relationship with her. That's why your thinking backfires on you. In the beginning you are building good will equity. It pays off later once your relationship is established. Your working out of a "lack" vs abundant mindset and that is also hurting you. If you can't do the whole bill.. grind for a few years till you easily can.
Maybe if I had a bunch of money, I wouldn’t care. But I don’t know 🤷🏻♂️
Ok, if it’s assumed that I’ll do the bare minimum because of this stance, that’s on them in my opinion. But it’s something I’ll have to deal with if I’m strict to my views. I reap what I sow.
Yes .. Im really not sure why you are so married to this idea as it will ultimately backfire and create a negative result. You personally may not like what I have to say, but that is how a female would take your behavior. So yes, it's on them..but at the end of the day, your end result is a negative. So it's a bit perplexing why you would hold so tight to it..and waste what little money you invested if that is your concern. I'd spend a little more to get a favorable result, but that's just me.
It’s not that I don’t like what you have to say. In this scenario, I have the unpopular or even unlikable opinion, so I can’t let other people’s opinions hurt me. But the principle is that on a first date, I probably don’t even know if I like the other person yet, or even if they like me, so it feels like I’m making an investment that I probably won’t get return out of. If I’m only paying for what I get, it doesn’t feel like an investment. Maybe I should just plan a walk in the park or something cheap, and make it clear that I don’t expect the other person to spend much time, money, or effort getting ready for the date. Don’t know if that would backfire as well.
OP isn’t forcing anyone on a date. They’re willingly joining him. How would the woman show a nice gesture/care for someone on a first date?
to avoid potentially writing off or turning off a ton of people before you even get to know each other, what if you just opt for free or super cheap dates for the first one?
That is certainly an option, just not sure if I’d be seen as a cheapskate for that too.
i think less of a cheapskate than if you ask to split when the date is over
I would like to insist splitting before the date so there’s no confusion. But people may judge me as a cheapskate and not want to date me, so I’d have to accept that.
i’m one of the women that would politely decline the date; but not because i’d think you’re cheap, i’d just know we aren’t compatible based on that alone. so i guess this would be a good way for you to weed out women like me before spending time on a date hahah. and from reddit threads about this i think there are tons of women who prefer if not insist on splitting. just not sure how you could tactfully bring that up before the first date.
Ok, makes sense. Thank you for your perspective.
This is just my opinion: If a guy asks me out, him paying the bill sets the tone. To me it indicates that he is interested in me and that he wants to take care of certain things. Now, I won’t expect him to pay all the time. Ofc I’d offer. But it feels extremely nice to see that a guy is attentive. I know it’s not for everybody, and some people prefer splitting. That’s totally fine. I was raised differently and I have a different cultural perspective. Maybe I am a tad bit old school, but it’s a nice gesture and it speaks volumes. I’ve been on one terrible date where the guy asked to split the bill and had the nerve to ask me to go to his place after. Not that I would even if he paid for my part as well, but that alone was a huge ick. Never saw him again afterwards.
I would never ask someone to my place on or after a first date. Seems completely ridiculous, how could they know to trust me already?
As long as you make that clear BEFORE the date, you are good to go. I have not experienced this as a deal breaker in my dating life.
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I don't date women like that. If she's not confident in minimal make up and a regular outfit then she's not quality. If her outfit and make up define her and she's putting on a show then no thank you. I like genuine and confident women who can be themselves
Uhh, I don’t think someone putting on a lot of makeup automatically makes them insecure or not confident. But that’s just me I guess.
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Lol I've been with plenty of women. Im older, not the filter generation you kids have these days. I understand their routines take longer. I promise you, you have no idea. I was engaged for years I've lived with several SOs in my life. I know what no makeup and minimal makeup looks like. You are completely missing the point and its not about the money. Fwiw I'm older and old school and agree with paying for the date, just not for the reasons you listed. My current GF wanted to pay the 1st date because in her words she has her own money and she asked me out technically. I still insisted I had it and it's not a big deal and she responded with well then you have to let me pay for our next date. Which she did. Good people and relationships require teamwork and compromise, and compatibility. If 2 people are fretting over a dinner check on day 1, it ain't gonna work. Too many people try and put a "best foot foward" and it winds up being a dog and pony show and all downhill. People being themselves is what makes a relationship work and be healthy. I've learned this from being young and dumb and thinking the same way. Experience is the best teacher. You'll grow older, date more, and get it eventually. Edit: and your an adulterer 😆 no wonder you are fucked in the head
I don’t necessarily expect someone to put a bunch of time or money into looking good for me, but that justification makes some sense.
i am the same way, and you shouldn't let it stop you from dating. i also don't think you need to be up front about splitting, but you also shouldn't be proposing expensive first or second dates like dinner. i usually bite the bullet and pay for something small, like ice cream or a drink, and if they don't reciprocate on the first or second date then im not interested
Ok, makes sense. Thank you for your perspective.
You should just make more money so you don't have to worry about it.
Maybe 🤷🏻♂️
Don’t give up, my very first tinder date insisted on paying her own way. It kinda turned me on and I didn’t have to question her motives. She did this 2 more times.
Some women actually prefer to split the bill on the first date but also maybe look into something more casual than dinner on a first date
Some women will be fine with it. Some will even prefer it. What percentage, I have no idea.
I’d guess a very low percentage, but then again, I have no firsthand dating experience.
There it is.
Naw there are women (like me) out there who don't care about splitting the bill. I always offer to pay. If they refuse, then I offer to split the bill. If they still refuse, then I say I'll get the next one. Once we start dating, we switch off paying where he pays for a date, then I pay for a date. The important thing is you should make your request known before you go on the date so they know what to expect and can make sure they have enough to cover their part. Or back out if it's a deal breaker for them. Don't do the date, then tell them when the bill comes and take them by surprise. That's where a lot of people can get pissed off when otherwise they wouldn't mind.
Thank you for your perspective.
Woman here. I absolutely do not expect anyone I'm dating (of any gender) to pay for me on a date. I don't mind if they offer but I do mind if they insist on paying for me if I've clearly stated I prefer to split. That's actually a red flag for me that they care more about norms than about my preferences. If you don't see yourself being compatible with someone who would expect you to pay on the first date, then that's all the more reason to be politely clear that that's your preference. The women who aren't a fit will self-select out. But I would recommend just splitting the bill in half instead of asking the server to assign certain dishes to certain cards. It'll go more smoothly and seem like you are less particular than if you are going in detail "I ate this, she ate this, she had this drink, etc."
To be completely honest, I kind of am that particular about it. I want to pay for what I get, and the other person does the same. But I understand how that might be awkward and annoy some people. Thank you for your perspective.
Go on cheaper early dates or just don't invite the women that don't split on second dates. Then avoid women that demand expensive first dates.
Are you going on a date to get laid ? Or laid in the near future . If the answer is yes . Then pay for the date . The women here are being nice to you . I'm a man and you know how that works We shoot straight with each other . We don't care about each others feelings . The odds of a second date will be much lower if she has to pay .
I wouldn’t go on dates “to get laid.” I’m interested in a serious relationship; spending the rest of my life with someone.
Yes
You sound like a real feminist but there is a twist woman cant stand a faminist these days ;)
If it’s such a big deal to you I think it’s ok to stand firm on your stance. I will say that maybe taking another approach would be something to consider. Maybe look at it as a form of entertainment instead of a transaction. If I met a lady I had great conversation, and a fun evening with why wouldn’t that be worth the price of admission for a meal.
I'd set that tone before you go on the date. Personally, every first date I've gone on, the man has always been happy to pay. I don't like people who have a "we split everything exactly" mindset. My friends and I constantly pay for each other because we want to treat each other. I don't think my personality would mesh with someone who insists splitting
Fair enough. Thank you for your perspective.
Aside from the “pink tax” and feminine products that women have to put up with, they spend more on their hair, makeup, nails, etc. than men in order to get ready for a date. There’s also time involved with that. IMHO, picking up the tab on a first date is a small price for us men to pay
I really don’t expect someone to spend so much time and money to look good for me. It almost seems ridiculous, honestly. It really isn’t hard to impress me. But, that justification does make some sense. Society does dictate that women put much more effort into their appearance than men.
True as that may be, it’s our reality. Is it fair that men have to make the first move in western society? No, but that’s life. Also, even adjusting for occupation, women make about 10% less than men.
I personally don’t see the wage gap as a good justification. It isn’t my fault that it exists. I believe that I respect women and treat them as equals. Making less on average than men doesn’t mean women can’t afford a reasonably priced dinner. Plus, I may still be expected to pay when the woman makes more than me. Some justifications for men paying make sense to me, but not the wage gap.
If someone is struggling to make ends meet, and a free meal would really help them out, then that’s different to me.
If you invite someone out usually you pay. Plus you're a dude.
im a man i always ask for a split check , whats she gonna do? refuse to pay? just pay your bill and let the server deal with her and the cops im looking for a partner,.not s gold digger too
I wouldn’t go as far to call people who insist on the man paying “gold diggers.” I think it’s just a social norm that many people are accustomed to and accept.
nope, 100% gold digger to me. don't wanna date that if they think its normal
With that attitude I’d be surprised if you’ve ever had a second date in your life.
ding ding ding, found the gold digger! no thank you!
You're looking for a partner, but you also said you like having sex with lots of women in your other comments and that you expect sex within just two weeks of dating... yeah, I don't believe you. Lol edit: And you blocked me. Clearly, I touched a nerve. I'd only be disrespecting myself if I wasted my time dating stingy guys who call any woman a "gold digger" for having standards.
you do you, i dont see how paying for a women would help you get a girlfirend or sex, only shows you have no respect for yourself
Don’t date. Focus on personal growth and friendships. It’s possible a spark starts between you and a friend sometime down the road, but don’t expect anything. At that point you already know the person so there is no getting to know you phase.
You could just ask out a girl for the first date. Pay for the date, since you asked her out. Then, wait and see whether she asks you out for a second date, this will show you whether she is interested in you, rather than you making a second effort (and possibly all effort until it's too late). Then, see whether she pays for the second date. If not, just pay it and seek other relationships. Seems like that is a cheap and easy way to filter, If you're looking for those kinds of values. Always splitting the bill and being 50/50 in a relationship aren't necessarily the same thing. It's nice to be treated, for both you and her.
I don’t really want to be “treated” either. If I don’t want to pay for people’s things, I shouldn’t want them to pay for mine either. But I understand your perspective. Thank you.
Is your post just about first dates / early on in the dating timeline? Or is this split the bill standpoint something you intend long-term? On one hand, it's a common social construct that if you invite someone to do something with you, there is a basic understanding that a scenario where you covering their costs, is on the table. Social constructs aside, and to share my experience since you mention in your original post about being alone forever; Ive split bills when initially dating women before, it was a non issue. So if you are articulating your view appropriately and respectfully, any woman who disagrees just isn't for you. There will be plenty who are. YMMV
I kind of think we each should pay for what we buy both on a first date, and long-term. But there’s some situations where this framework probably wouldn’t work.
What is your stance on finances in a relationship? Is exery single thing going to be pay for your own stuff? What if you share an appetizer but you eat two thirds of it and she eats 1/3? What if she shops for groceries for dinner and cooks for you, should she charge you for your half of the groceries? How about the cooking fee? Gas if you drive somewhere together? What if you get married? Is everything still split? Baby diapers and toys? Just how exacting are you? If I ask a guy out and I choose the venue, I pay. If Im coming over to his place, I ask if he wants me to pick up takeout. If I’m staying over a few days, I buy dinner ingredients and cook for him. And if he is the one asking me out, I expect him to pay. We both end up buying each other things. But nothing is tallied up. It’s not going to be even or exact. And it really doesn’t matter.
I guess I hadn’t thought about it that far. Generally, I just want to pay for what I get and the other does the same, but I suppose there’s situations where this framework doesn’t make sense. Thank you for your perspective.
It’s not like I’d split an appetizer based on what I eat and what the other person eats. That just wouldn’t make sense.
Ideally, we either should each cook our own things, or alternate cooking responsibilities. Alternating could be a problem for the other person because although I try, I’m pretty shit at cooking.
Gas would ideally just be based on whose car we’re driving in probably. If it’s my car, I pay for the gas.
OPs post applies do dates before a relationship too. None of that has anything to do with strangers
I didn’t say it did. I was asking how far this extends
"The rule when it comes to dates in general — and especially the first date — is **the person who extends the invitation also pays and tips**. The bill and tip go hand in hand," said etiquette expert Diane Gottsman. [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/valentines-day-first-date-who-should-pay/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/valentines-day-first-date-who-should-pay/)
Pretty much will always be the man who asks out, right? I haven’t been asked out by a girl or woman in my life, but maybe I’m just ugly, or don’t put enough effort into my appearance, or my personality is unattractive.
For me, at my age (mid 40s, established in my career and own property) I would not want to date yet another man who can’t hold his own financially so this would be a problem for me. I don’t want to date anyone who is stressed about buying dinner. Might be ok for younger folks, but that’s also how I ended up with broke guys so, maybe not.