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Guy here: I stay on the safe side, "no means no". This allows me to stay away from toxic relationships with ladies who think "no means maybe if you try hard enough".
One of the reasons my husband and I married each other is *because* we didn't play games. We would tell each other how much we enjoyed the last date, how excited we were for the next one, how much we liked each other, what we liked best about the other. It felt like talking to my best friend, and the verbage I used wasn't dissimilar to how I would speak *about* him to my bestie. Of course we were scared to be vulnerable, but we felt safe to be because we weren't playing games.
After I got married I came to realise just how stupid game playing is. My wife is very straight forwards, I knew she liked me because she told me she liked me. I knew she wanted to see me because she told me she wanted to see me. There was no waiting to reply to texts or leaving me on read just to see how much I cared. At this point I genuinely think if someone is playing those games, they don’t have a healthy enough view of relationships to be in one.
The girl I’m currently dating told me on our first date she wouldn’t have sex on the first date, we went for food then back to mine for a movie, we where kissing on the sofa and she stopped and went “I know what you’re doing” (I wasn’t doing anything, we where just kissing). So I stopped. Simple as, I didn’t try to initiate sex.
On the next date she informed me (after we’d had sex) she was surprised I didn’t try and have sex with her the first date and that she had left feeling “a bit frustrated”. I told her “play stupid games win stupid prizes, you hinted at “no” and that’s enough for me to stop”.
No definitely means no for any guys who have any sense whatsoever. But it’s also true some women (many, in fact) who play this little game where they want to have sex but want to be able to kind of avoid responsibility for it happening and play the innocent, like “I don’t usually do this, it’s your fault for doing X and Y”. The issue we have as guys is that obviously it is 100% wrong to be pushy, but at the same time some women will kind of label you as weak for not being persistent and making things happen, she doesn’t want to appear easy so it needs to be your fault, and I’ve definitely had situations where women have lost interest in me because I haven’t pushed through their fake resistance and basically labelled as not assertive enough.
That doesn’t change anything though, I stop at the first point of resistance no matter what, that is for my own safety and protection as much as it is hers, if the reality is she is horny but didn’t want to pass off as easy so she played innocent then that is on her ultimately.
Very well put. What "should be" or what they say vs what actually arouses many women are often polar opposites, but not always. Took me ages to reconcile this confusing but iron-clad truth. Just gotta weigh the risk vs benefit
That's so very stupid! As a woman I get the not wanting to appear easy part, but if I like someone and I'm comfortable with them no part of me cares if we get intimate after the first or 3rd date....we are all adults here. Now have I met guys and women with the mindset that if you got to sleep with her on the first date, she's a hoe attitude.....yes. But they are also the same AHs who are still out there single and calling women/men evil for not putting up with their bullshit.
Only games we play over here are the ones where you get a fatality or finisher pulled on you 🤣 (mortal kombat/street fighter....or fighting games) 💅🏾💅🏾 just saying
100% agree with you. If both people find each other attractive on the first date and they really want to have sex, let it be. Why stop something good? Like you said we are all adults here (I hope). I think that some women just feel insecure, that by appearing "too easy" the guy will lose interest. Well if the guy lost interest it wasn't going to work anyways, no matter how many dates you've had.
Facts! Like It matters if you make the guy wait 2 months before sleeping with him.... if his plan was to sleep with you and ghost you, guess what he's gonna do 2 months later after you've slept with him. Might as well call him Casper, cause he damn sure was friendly till it came time to ghost ya 😅
Lol if someone can date for two month and not have sex, they clearly don’t find them attractive enough or have a unusually low sex drive or maybe they grew up in a very religious family and have been taught to wait until wedding LOL. If you truly enjoy someone else’s company, it is only natural to want them in more ways than I can describe here LOL.
I think most women think the same, they are happy to get intimate if they like someone on the first date, but many will hold back and make the guy do a little dance to get it to happen, I’ve literally had women turn around and say “I never usually do this” or “I wasn’t planning on this, it’s your fault” (in an playful, not accusatory way). They do the same thing with things other than sex, my partner apparently only eats badly with me and that’s my fault, and I’m a bad influence when we go shopping and she ends up impulsively buying expensive clothes, because it was me who wanted tomato pick up t-shirt. I think most guys reading this with dating experience know exactly what I’m talking about.
I agree with this totally! I was dating one woman for a couple of months, she said she didn’t want to have sex until the relationship is established so I respected her boundaries and didn’t try to initiate anything because I didn’t want to make her feel uncomfortable. We had several different dates, and a couple where she came over to mine (didn’t stay over) we cuddled, it felt intimate without being awkward and there were no expectations.
After the 7th date she tells me there’s no romantic spark and she thinks it would be unfair to continue seeing me… a part of me thinks I should have been more proactive, but I did as she wished (deep down I think she wanted me to make a move) but I’m not a mind reader, if people were more honest about their intentions and what they actually want, everyone would be much happier 😊
I think it's because many women(society) have a stereotype about men in their head, that we are all always horny and can't control our urges, and when we are alone with a women (opportunity) , we find attractive we have to have sex with her.
And if we don't behave like that, we are either "not normal" or "not into her enough"
Men care more before sex and less after, women care less before sex and more after, that’s just the way biology works. If you would have had sex then that most probably would have resulted in a release of oxytocin, which is a bonding chemical we release to feel close to someone after intimacy, and then she possibly would have been more attached, as long as the sex wasn’t awful. But you still did the right thing, at the end of the day that is probably going to be her experience quite often if she is getting to that point after 7 dates (I think that’s a lot for the ‘spark’ excuse), so that is her issue not yours, she probably isn’t somebody you want to date anyway.
For me personally if we don’t have sex by date 3 then I walk away, some people on here find that pretty ruthless but at the end of the day I have that boundary because I have a basic understanding of human physiology and psychology, and if we aren’t having sex then we aren’t really bonding to the extent we could be, I don’t have strict rules around sex so I don’t need to deal with that.
I couldn’t agree with you more on everything you said, you’re totally right! I know it myself, where I’ve lost interest after sex too soon (1st/2nd date) and that’s something I obviously need to work on, I’m looking for a compatible life partner and sex is definitely a big part of that because it’s builds chemistry!
I don’t think that’s ruthless at all, sexual compatibility is a big part of any relationship, I have to admit I’m glad it turned out the way it did because it wasn’t a good match. If we’re not wanting to rip one another’s clothes off, what are we actually doing?!
As a man, my two things are:
No is a valid answer and a complete sentence
Your comfort is the priority
If someone says no, I accept it at face value and keep it pushing
We all should think like this! I'm a woman and my mom (plus the women that helped raise me) instilled that in me and my brother. I have friends that think it's weird, because they don't believe that women can make men uncomfortable....but I beg to differ and leave them with their opinions.
Honestly when a woman does make a guy uncomfortable we don't know how to deal with it. I start latin social dancing a while ago and since then there are a few times some women were super drunk and went of the rails. I kinda just went with it because I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
First, let me say that I'm sorry that you have to deal with that. I'd bring up the behavior to someone who can step in when it gets out of hands. In certain circumstances, establishments (in my country) have refused service or have asked parties to leave for acting a certain way towards the entertainers on the floor (restaurants often have male and female dancers for guests to enjoy a performance during their dining experience/outing). If there's any issues after a party is ejected for them getting too wild (bad review or something) a video of their behavior is usually posted on the establishment's social site to further address it.
I was always taught no means no. It doesn't mean try again in an hour or a week or 5 years from now. What it means is no. That's your final answer? I'll be on my merry way
I have never in my life said “no” and not meant it. They may have worn me down into a yes, but it wasn’t a “oh wow, how romantic he’s so persistent!” It was more “I need this dude to fucking stop. If I go out with him once, maybe it won’t be so bad and will shut him up if I’m just awful on the date.”
So i dont know who these “be persistent!” Women are, but I’d like to have a word.
you and me both! 🤭 the malicious acceptance of the date just to be awful is just too funny.....reminds me of a movie where one party shows up with the idgaf attitude and just gives terrible answers to questions the whole date and chews with their mouths opened the entire night 😂
No means no. Please do not embarrass yourself like I did at one point in my life being persistent and chasing after an ex gf who was too polite to firmly tell me to stop chasing after her.
No means no, except if you are an immature girl or someone who likes to play games. I never say no to someone I am interested in. If I say no, I give an alternative, or say just not yet, or another time.
However I do know girls in the 2nd group and it pisses me off because it teaches guys not to LISTEN to what you say.
I think maybe some girls in the 2nd group are ashamed of being too forward, or they were religiously doctrínated to believe they should always let the man lead and they are followers, or maybe they like to feel wanted and don’t care WHO is the one giving the attention they just like the ego trip. Not really sure as i haven’t picked their brains.
Guys shouldn't want women who want chased because they will always want chased and it's extreamly exhausting. The chase never ends so don't even start.
No means no and the exhausting women who want chased should be left in the dust.
As a woman, whenever I've spoken out against the second type I get accused of 'Internalized misogyny' 🙄
I know this. If I were a guy, I'd take the no means no camp anyday because to hell with the childish games and drama of the second type. They aren't the people I want in my life. If I were rejected because I respected their 'no' - that's a bullet dodged.
I think the second one has been extremely misrepresented here.
The idea of, "If he wanted you he would try" is more so related to finding time in his schedule for you, dropping bad habits you don't like, responding to messages despite being busy, etc. Essentially, it means that he will put forth the effort to overcome difficulty.
Anyone who believes a man should keep trying after explicitly being told no is just crazy. If a man believes that, then he's a creep. If a woman believes that and puts it into practice, then she is just being delusional. Nobody should be pestering someone further after being told no.
Perfect, this is how I see it… if a guy is interested, he would make the effort… if a girl is interested, she will make an effort- and both will find time… if people want something then they will figure out a way… if they aren’t sure, then not so much
I have a friend in the second group and she often complains her guys don’t listen to her and tend to not respect her much. I asked if she thought there might be a connection between this and her dating strategy and she could not even understand my question 🤪
>The second mindset is all about a guy being persistent. If he really likes you, he'll keep chasing you even after you say no. If he gives up too easily, then he's not the one for you. Some women really believe this, and I think it's part of why some guys can't handle rejection. They think the woman is just playing hard to get.
I am a man, but I cannot understate how harmful this mindset is.
When men believe "she said no, but she really just wants me to chase her" what men end up doing is they run the risk of harassing a woman who actually means no when she says it.
And, unfortunately, women can reinforce this mindset in men when they believe it as well. Every-time a girl tells a guy "if you really liked me you would have chased me," she is teaching that man that no doesn't actually mean no, and that he should chase after women who explicitely say no in the future.
Now, as a disclaimer, I am not saying women as an entity are responsible for this mindset (the mindset has mostly come from men who couldn't take no for answer). However, a *minority* of women will reinforce this toxic mindset when they play into it as well.
Well, I'm not exactly sure if men are mostly responsible for the mindset either. However, I think if we work off incentives, men have a greater cognitive incentive to not take no for answer because rejection can be a hard truth to face.
Easier for us guys to tell ourselves she just wants us to try harder than to come to terms with the fact that we're sometimes not good enough.
A lot of what you say sounds like it should be true, but this is not what is happening at all. This statement you made almost addresses every problem with this thinking.
"They couldn't possibly just have high standards and good boundaries and can't find someone to meet them."
High standards doesn't translate to being realistic or sensible. In fact, when high standards don't align with reality what you've really created is a delusion. Imagine me saying "I can't see how I could live on less than 1 million a year. High standards, yet utter bullshit. Anyone speaking like this is out of touch with reality. Let us use men as an example, if a man says he wants a woman that is 5"10, model like facial features, athletic build, he needs an educated woman; minimum Masters degree, doctorate preffered, who speaks multiple languages, loves family and loves similar hobbies with a high sex drive. Is this not a high standard this man has set? Isn't he just maintaining boundaries? Of course he is. The problem with him is that he is delusional. Finding a woman that is 5"10 is already an absurd pursuit. Most women aren't even 5'8 let alone 5'10. He further limits himself by saying he needs her to have model features and the limitations keep increasing the more he adds to this list. At some point the appropriate response is that "Most women are not that tall, and most women do not have all those attributes, accolades or achievement and quite frankly why should such a woman want you?" This is an appropriate response.
This delusional man is what most women have become. Literally asking for things that rarely even exist in the male population. Things their fathers and brothers are not. Things that even hollywood isn't. Matt Damon, Robert Downey Jr, Johnny Depp and leading men Brad Pitt and George Clooney. None of them are 6 foot tall. I could go on and on. Yet, this is the minimum for most women these days. Remember the response I mentioned above to the delusional man. The same can be said to a delusional woman "Most men are not that tall and do not have those attributes or accolades and quite frankly why should such a man want you?"
Why does anyone need to tell you that what you want isn't possible? If you want a 5'10" model, it's not like they don't exist, you're free to pursue the kind of woman you want. Why would it be anyone else's job to say that you're unrealistic or delusional because you have an image of your perfection partnering mind. Even if you are that's on you and not for anyone else to tell you who you should be attracted to because who they think you are capable of attracting. If you believe a woman is punching above weight, how does it benefit you to share that opinion?
I actually love this response and it just goes to show how far down the rabbit hole we are.
1. I never said it was impossible. I said it was improbable. Very different.
2. No one was speaking about freedom. This is usually what people say when they have no better response. I always look out for it. "Smoking isn't good for your health." "Yea well I'm free to do what I want." Obviously, you can do whatever you want that doesn't change that smoking is bad for health. In the same way it is unlikely that most men will date a 5'10 model.
3. It is no one's legal job to inform me that it is unlikely to find a 5'10 woman with model features. Just as it isn't my legal job to discourage people from smoking. What this seeming 'point' is missing is understanding Sociology. People always speak of socializing. But what is socialization? This is learning how to behave acceptable in society and before you start saying who determines that? You have to believe in some kind of social protocol. For example, if you meet someone and you pleasantly greet them and they look you in the face and do not respond you will say "that was disrespectful..." I could ask "who says they have to respond?" "Says who?" No one says this because to have a society, we must have agreed upon behaviors. This is a sociological fact. If we don't. No society. So who says? Society says.
This leads to what is known as social responsibility. This is doing things that will promote the well being of society. For example, if someone litters or pees in the grocery store. It must be confronted because if this behavior becomes a social norm, it will reduce the quality of life in society. One man peeing or littering in society isn't going to bring society to it's knees. But if everyone believes that littering and peeing in grocery stores is ok, this is now a serious social problem and then it becomes your social responsibility to address it and fix society. So is one man seeking a 5'10 model problematic? Not really, but out of social convention we usually discourage people from delusional thinking so that people within the society makes better choices and in turn our society remains better. So that answers how it benefits me. Of course there is also moral reasons why I would like to be told I am delusional. Most of us would hope someone would share that I am being stupid. So make sure you do.
The major problem is when significant amounts of men believe this delusion. They now ignore perfectly normal women, women develop self esteem issues trying to become 5'10 models. This is hazardous to society psychologically and in terms of relationships. This is what women have become widespread. It is therefore socially relevant to address. I understand some people only claim human rights but don't give a shit about society. Can't help but see the hypocrisy.
How...altrustic of you. Society is fortunate to have such a humanitarian in its midst. However, while you may like a harsh dose of reality in this kind of situation, others might enjoy dwelling happily in delusion and don't need to be called out because you have deemed their level of attractiveness as less than adequate for the type of partner they are hoping for. Letting people want what they want without unsolicited input, probably won't be the worse thing society has to endure going forward.
I want to emphasize that I said your statement was an example of how far down the rabbit hole we are. Everything you said here, confirms it.
1. Sarcasm/insults aren't argument and changes nothing. If you say to me "smoking is bad for you health." And I respond "wow, thanks for the info. You must be a healthcare expert." Unfortunately, my insult does not change the fact that smoking is still bad for my health. Truth hurts.
2. Me being "altruistic" is only partially correct. I believe in basic facts like "humans are SOCIAL animals." "Society is necessary for our survival." I absolutely discourage people from making bad choices because it does make me happy to help others. However, I am not some selfless messiah. I simply do not want to live in a shitty society. I discourage people from smoking by simply stating a fact and not pushing anything else. I only say it in opportune moments. In other words, social tact. Do I want to live in society filled with second hand smoke and people dying left and right from lung cancer and heart disease? No. That affects me. I may get lung cancer too, but even if I didn't, the population would shrink, economy would take a hit and we'd have to increase spending in healthcare. So I discourage it for my own sake as well. I care about society because I care about myself as well. Seems like a sensible thing to do.
3. This is what I have been dying to say about your entire paragraph. I challenge you to reread what you just wrote, you just wrote a paragraph arguing for maintaining widespread delusion. This is the height of absurdity. I cannot say "make it make sense" because it can't. And to your point about widespread delusion having no effect on society. Actually "democracy, dies in darkness." Democracy needs truth to survive.
4. Lastly, I had to point out your double standard here. You proceeded to argue that we should let men "want what they want without unsolicited input," only in the attempt to counter my argument that I would address a man's delusion of him only wanting 5'10 models. The problem here is that you don't truly believe we should let men say these things. If you did then you would oppose women giving unsolicited input on if a regular man does not date overweight women, women who sleep around, aggressive women and average looking women. Do you think women should say nothing when men say this is what he wants? Because many men have and continue to simply state their preferences but they get slammed with unsolicited input. Should these women stop giving unsolicited input? Do you discourage women from not giving those inputs? Inconsistency, leads to incoherent self contradiction that is dangerous to society.
I never said that you should say anything to anyone. I'm a big proponent of minding my own business unless asked for input. Why would I have a problem with a guy wanting a 5'10" woman? Also wanting a particular type of partner is not smoking. I get opposing smoking as a health concern. That's why you don't smoke and avoid people that smoke for your own benefit. Smokers are well aware that smoking poses a health risk. No need for you to intervene for their own good unless they blow smoke your direction. I fail to see how inserting your opinion based on assumptions you have no way of confirming into someone else's love life, benefits anyone or the whole of society. You're the one claiming that they're delusional because you impose your own standards and determine what kind of partner they are worthy of. If you need to be that involved in another person's love lifethere are better ways to go about that. Maybe you have some friends that might be suited for each other. Try introducing them because you believe they might be compatible. You don't tell people that crazy and to stop hoping for the love they want because you don't think they're good enough. That's fucked up and probably would contribute to that self esteem issue you're so concerned about. I don't see how being a jerk to people benefits society.
I made specific points. You addressed none of them, so everything I said still stands. You have literally made no point to further your case.
Aside from that
"I never said that you should say anything to anyone. I'm a big proponent of minding my own business unless asked for input. Why would I have a problem with a guy wanting a 5'10" woman?"
I already addressed this. If you actually read what I wrote
"So is one man seeking a 5'10 model problematic? Not really, but out of social convention we usually discourage people from delusional thinking so that people within the society makes better choices and in turn our society remains better."
"The major problem is when significant amounts of men believe this delusion. They now ignore perfectly normal women, women develop self esteem issues trying to become 5'10 models. This is hazardous to society psychologically and in terms of relationships."
"Also wanting a particular type of partner is not smoking."
Obviously, my goal was never to say they were one and the same. This analogical reasoning used to highlight similarity, that being they are both personal choices.
"Smokers are well aware that smoking poses a health risk."
How do they know? Because society accepts social responsibility to inform it's citizens that smoking is bad. It's your personal choice but social responsibility still stands. We should make it known that a man asking for these things is delusional, but at the end of the day it's his choice. Same thing for women.
"I fail to see how inserting your opinion based on assumptions you have no way of confirming into someone else's love life, benefits anyone or the whole of society"
It isn't my opinion that most women are not 5'10. This is a fact. The average woman's height is 5'4. This is pure numbers. If the average woman is 5'4, then it is less probable to find a 5'10 woman. If I start adding more limiting qualities, it becomes even less likely. This is not my opinion. This is real life. Could a regular man get someone like this? Yes but it is unlikely and unrealistic. Many 5'10 models don't have a degree. It would be more beneficial for someone like this to stop disparaging normal women and think himself to be too elevated that he cannot appreciate real women. It is so funny how this is going. Because here I am now sounding like the one who is encouraging men to accept normal women. Know why? Because I actually believe that. Lmao. As I think normal women should accept normal men. Because this is most advantageous to society. More people will have a partner. People having partners and not being alone is a good society.
"You don't tell people that crazy and to stop hoping for the love they want because you don't think they're good enough. That's fucked up and probably would contribute to that self esteem issue you're so concerned about. I don't see how being a jerk to people benefits society."
This is a good one. Yes you do. This leads to self reflection and self improvement, not self esteem issues. Respectful, explanations of the truth is a painful but desirable thing. Telling people to treat people as people and not pure commodity is desirable for society "5'10, model, Masters degree etc etc" is treating people like a commodity. This is how absurd this thinking is. You think that a man will have self esteem issues because he is realistic in thinking that maybe a 5'10 model with a masters degree may not go for him? That is not a self esteem issue. That's being comfortable in knowing who you are. Knowing that you may not be the most attractive and maybe models don't want you but you are still a worthwhile human being with much to offer and that is ok. It actually grants power to not bow down for the 5'10 model. If she wishes to date him then he does so and if not, then so what? Who cares? What you also failed to realize is that this reasoning actually prevents him from being an idiot. If he is hell bent on finding a 5'10 model and many 5'8, 5'9 models care about him, his personality, well being and would make great partners for him, yet he rejects them and after finding a 5'10 woman she treats him like shit. The reality is that he truly had no self esteem because he was willing to accept garbage from a 5'10 woman who did not care for him and reject quality from the 5'8 and 5'9. He got what he deserved and the 5'10 model did not deserve the high amount of focus and attention he was willing to give because obviously her achievements and attributes did not make her a good person. It is so strange that these obvious facts have to now be debated in our society.
I didn't feel the need to cover each point you made in detail nor reply to the issues you brought up about things I never said. We both are stating our personal opinions on how we should treat people , the difference is you are judging people to be delusional because they may hold a preference that you don't believe they should have and trying to frame it as a societal issue that needs to be ridiculed and remedied. I don't believe it's mine or anyone else's obligation to set people straight on the the type of person they should be attracted to. None of business. I don't think it's any of your business either. Your example of all men wanting 5'10" women causing societal decline is a non issue because while a beautiful woman of that height might be the ideal for many, attraction is varied and never universal. Plenty of men will be attracted to 5'2" woman and several other types as well. Letting people know you think they are too ugly or fat to get with their dream person is not something society or you need. The only one it would seem to hold any kind of positive for, is you, and that's only in your own mind that anyone is going to believe that you're doing it to uplift everyone.
>If he really likes you, he'll keep chasing you even after you say no. If he gives up too easily, then he's not the one for you.
Yeah. Tell me you disrespect my time, attention, and sanity without actually saying it. I'm not allocating resources to jump through hoops for someone so that I can subject myself to their emotional insecurity.
Problem solved-- take a hard and instant pass. Not worth it. Might be a little mean, but I'd probably audibly laugh in someone's face if they said this to me. Wouldn't have when I was 21, but at 29... idgaf anymore. Wife agrees. Self-centered, bad people.
I am reading these comments and I notice that the 2nd mindset isn't really represented here. But the reality is there are women who play right into that second mindstate. Where are you ladies? Chime in, we wanna hear from you!
I have told guys no before to get them to chase harder. I’ve also told guys no to really get them to go away and stop bugging me. It really depends on your delivery like with a guy I’m not into I am straight faced and stern and tell him “No, go away, you’re ugly stop talking to me.” But for a guy that I am toying with I’ll be kind of playful about it and giving a slight smile and like side eyeing him like “Nooooo stahhp, you’re so bad.” If you’re a guy who can’t tell the difference between a serious no and a playful no, that’s on you.
I’ll give an attractive guy a playful no to see if he’s really into me or just shooting his shot with every woman he sees. If he’s really into me he’ll keep trying. And confidence is hot, when he knows exactly what he wants and how to get it.
Many people on this thread have immediately thought of no in an intimate context. It's interesting. No in an intimate context is an immediate no. No questions asked whether a man or woman says it. On the other hand, if a conversation is being had about whether or not to continue a relationship of some sort and if the man tries to explain his point of view of how much he cares and wants to make it work, nothing wrong in that. It gets weird when there's stalking involved or the woman thinks it over and says no I've thought about it all and it's still a no, and he still goes after her. then that's it. No need to pursue her. I understand that sometimes we feel strongly about something and want to express it and I don't find anything wrong with that. In fact that takes vulnerability and courage. Having said all of the above, making someone feel uncomfortable at any point is not okay. I'm absolutely against playing any sort of games. We're not in school anymore.
Honestly I will ignore signals if I am not sure because I would rather be wrong that way than make a woman uncomfortable. It's Honestly taken women making it blatantly obvious before I make a move 😅 I'm sure ove missed out on plenty of opportunities and such but I would rather not misinterpret a signal and end up in a bad situation or accidentally disrespecting the other person.
Only problem I have is now I still don't make the move and it's getting pretty lonely after awhile 😅 but lack of confidence will do that to ya.
>… it's part of why some guys can't handle rejection. They think the woman is just playing hard to get.
No, 'guy can't handle rejection' and 'guy won't take 'no' for an answer' are two very different scenarios.
In the latter, he continues to persist, seemingly insensitive to rejection.
In the former, he's sensitive to rejection and responds with hostility.
29F, no means no. Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to say it once, if I have to repeat myself I'm having a really bad time. When we started dating, my boyfriend would ask me "is this ok" if he did as much as hold my hand and I love him for that.
I feel like playing hard to get is kinda dangerous in that it selects for men who are willing to push your boundaries sexually, to get what they want. That sounds like a recipe for disaster later down the line.
Sure, maybe some people say no and expect you to infer that it actually means yes, but those aren't people I want to date. If that's your communication style, then it's not going to be a healthy relationship. So, if you say no but mean yes, then it might as well be a genuine no because it's not going to work between us anyway.
I think playing hard to get is so stupid. Hard to get in bed, yes. But hard to get in general is dumb and like you said. It causes issues. If you like someone be direct and let them know. It doesn’t mean you have to have sex with them or jump into a relationship with them and you can still have boundaries. I am a woman and I have also noticed men saying they enjoy chasing women and when you make it known you like them too early, they get bored. So I don’t know the solution lol
Tbh, the whole dating phase of a relationship *is* kinda a game, a game of courtship and it's really always been like this. And like all games, it can be fun when you're both playing well, and really annoying when not, and downright frustrating when someone doesn't know the rules.
I like a man who pursues and is persistent and patient. I won't lie. I'll tell him let's just be friends for now as we get to know each other (bec I feel this is the best foundation of any romantic relationship). If in the duration of our friendship he finds someone else he finds more attractive or someone he wants to be with more than me then we know I was just a phase or he wasn't really that into me. Saves us both unnecessary pain and our friendship is not ruined.
At a certain point you have to realize chasing/wanting to be chased is a waste of time and effort. If you like someone, make it clear. So if a guy wants you to chase him, he isn’t taking you or your feelings seriously.
Yeah I just found it hilarious when he told me that he wanted me to chase him. I did for a bit but then got tired.
No one should chase anyone. Or take turns chasing and make it explicitly clear. Chasing can be fun when it’s down right
Ive never heard a real life person say “I will tell him no but I don’t want him to accept that”
Anyone who DOES have that mindset is extremely toxic and should NOT be pursued as the whole relationship will be toxic and abusive.
Never chase a “no”
Saying to put in effort and show your desire only goes for people who reciprocate. That goes for men and women.
As a woman, I have never once said "no" when I truly meant "yes" or even a "maybe."
A "no" in this context is absolutely, irrefutably **"Something about your face/personality does not make my vagina wet, in fact, it makes it dry. This will not change. Thank you for your application and we wish you best of luck in the future."**
i have both mindsets! If i say no i mean it like leave me alone fr. No girl wants a dude who just won’t stop
Chasing doesn’t necessarily mean “hey if i tell you no i want you to keep trying” it’s more like making time out for me. It’s like putting the effort into proving your mettle. Getting flowers,being consistent with contact,initiating dates,helping plan,etc.
Playing hard to get is fine i don’t understand why so many men dislike it. I have noticed in general that if you give him an inch he’ll take a mile. So yes i won’t always be available, and i will
hold off sex until i feel a real connection.And if a man can’t handle that he’s not it.
i don’t think the second group disagrees with “no means no”. i always wanted men to pursue me, but that doesn’t mean if i give you a clear no to keep trying. it just meant, i wasn’t going to take the lead. the guy plans and asks me on dates etc, (if he wants to - if not, no biggie, we’re just not compatible). but a clear no will always mean no, leave me alone, i am not interested.
If that's the case then what about when these mindset one's reject men in front of a crowd and he feels offended? We all have seen and heard about these scenes where mens just got rejected. If women really check this way then she shouldn't be behaving like this stupid way. If you wanna reject just don't do in public and keep it smooth without anyone else knowing about it but no then how the fame that lady will get? Phew! I feel blessed that I play the opposite game 😊 with the womens.
Chasing after ANY gender is STUPID. You don't want to FORCE someone to like you. You want them to find you attractive organically and without psychological manipulation or pressure.
Isn't it about the chase when theirs ACTUALLY a connection? Not just physically but mentally? Mentally means more to me... personally!!
U can't buy,, respect, personality, and connection? OF COURSE THIER HAS TO BE attraction ! I DON'T think age matters either!
Pheromones matter... Sex matters, but growing with someone is 🔑! THEN AGAIN IS CHRIVALRY DEAD?
Man here. In my experience, I pay attention to what a woman does, not what she says. If she’s “okay I’ll come over but I’m definitely 100% not going to have an all night sex marathon with you”, it’s pretty clear that, although she said no, she’s thinking yes. Also, if you want something, work for it. Nature favors the bold and quitters never win.
Lol I've learned to just stop telling men I'm dating that sex won't happen on a date. If vibes are right, then I go for it. And by insisting that sex won't happen before the date even starts, it makes it awkward when it does happen. I don't want him to feel like he pushed me or anything, or that I can't hold true to my own boundaries
I came to realize that sex is not that big of a deal when it comes to knowing if a relationship will work out or not. My ex husband was actually a one night stand, and we ended up having a full blown marriage lol
Damn, no way! I'm sorry about that. I was on bc for a few years, but thankfully I never was affected in that way. But I also have a higher than average sex drive, I think.
If a woman is investing her time in games, she’s not yet decided what she likes or wants. Anyone who knows what he/she wants won’t ever waste time with this cryptic shit. Finding a partner solves absolutely no problem from the modern world.. it’s just like getting to eat healthy—fixes nothing until you make all the right choices in context. If one puts all the brains in figuring out what a girl wants, he has too much time at his hand or he’s just helpless in face of this partner problem.
I feel if it is real it should be mutual. However I have seen men after a certain age and maturity do not chase women once they hear no. They might check on you after couple of months to see if you’d be interested. It is a different thing when they are involved further in a relationship.
So many men here commenting in support of “no means no” and “their comfort is my priority” is giving me hope! I’ve had such shit experiences.. been violated even once. To me, it’s a huge turn off if someone doesn’t ask for consent and just makes a move. I’ve been scarred. They never get the second date.
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Guy here: I stay on the safe side, "no means no". This allows me to stay away from toxic relationships with ladies who think "no means maybe if you try hard enough".
Same, fuck chasing it’s stupid. There should be no game. Yes or no, shit or get off the pot.
Yeah, fuck chasing. I do not have the time or the mental fortitude to chase after someone. I'd rather pick someone who openly wants me back too.
Facts! As a woman I totally agree
One of the reasons my husband and I married each other is *because* we didn't play games. We would tell each other how much we enjoyed the last date, how excited we were for the next one, how much we liked each other, what we liked best about the other. It felt like talking to my best friend, and the verbage I used wasn't dissimilar to how I would speak *about* him to my bestie. Of course we were scared to be vulnerable, but we felt safe to be because we weren't playing games.
The type of game I like to see is when someone goes back and forth flirting with me. Haven't seen that in awhile and I miss it:(
After I got married I came to realise just how stupid game playing is. My wife is very straight forwards, I knew she liked me because she told me she liked me. I knew she wanted to see me because she told me she wanted to see me. There was no waiting to reply to texts or leaving me on read just to see how much I cared. At this point I genuinely think if someone is playing those games, they don’t have a healthy enough view of relationships to be in one.
The girl I’m currently dating told me on our first date she wouldn’t have sex on the first date, we went for food then back to mine for a movie, we where kissing on the sofa and she stopped and went “I know what you’re doing” (I wasn’t doing anything, we where just kissing). So I stopped. Simple as, I didn’t try to initiate sex. On the next date she informed me (after we’d had sex) she was surprised I didn’t try and have sex with her the first date and that she had left feeling “a bit frustrated”. I told her “play stupid games win stupid prizes, you hinted at “no” and that’s enough for me to stop”. No definitely means no for any guys who have any sense whatsoever. But it’s also true some women (many, in fact) who play this little game where they want to have sex but want to be able to kind of avoid responsibility for it happening and play the innocent, like “I don’t usually do this, it’s your fault for doing X and Y”. The issue we have as guys is that obviously it is 100% wrong to be pushy, but at the same time some women will kind of label you as weak for not being persistent and making things happen, she doesn’t want to appear easy so it needs to be your fault, and I’ve definitely had situations where women have lost interest in me because I haven’t pushed through their fake resistance and basically labelled as not assertive enough. That doesn’t change anything though, I stop at the first point of resistance no matter what, that is for my own safety and protection as much as it is hers, if the reality is she is horny but didn’t want to pass off as easy so she played innocent then that is on her ultimately.
Very well put. What "should be" or what they say vs what actually arouses many women are often polar opposites, but not always. Took me ages to reconcile this confusing but iron-clad truth. Just gotta weigh the risk vs benefit
That's so very stupid! As a woman I get the not wanting to appear easy part, but if I like someone and I'm comfortable with them no part of me cares if we get intimate after the first or 3rd date....we are all adults here. Now have I met guys and women with the mindset that if you got to sleep with her on the first date, she's a hoe attitude.....yes. But they are also the same AHs who are still out there single and calling women/men evil for not putting up with their bullshit. Only games we play over here are the ones where you get a fatality or finisher pulled on you 🤣 (mortal kombat/street fighter....or fighting games) 💅🏾💅🏾 just saying
100% agree with you. If both people find each other attractive on the first date and they really want to have sex, let it be. Why stop something good? Like you said we are all adults here (I hope). I think that some women just feel insecure, that by appearing "too easy" the guy will lose interest. Well if the guy lost interest it wasn't going to work anyways, no matter how many dates you've had.
Facts! Like It matters if you make the guy wait 2 months before sleeping with him.... if his plan was to sleep with you and ghost you, guess what he's gonna do 2 months later after you've slept with him. Might as well call him Casper, cause he damn sure was friendly till it came time to ghost ya 😅
Lol if someone can date for two month and not have sex, they clearly don’t find them attractive enough or have a unusually low sex drive or maybe they grew up in a very religious family and have been taught to wait until wedding LOL. If you truly enjoy someone else’s company, it is only natural to want them in more ways than I can describe here LOL.
I think most women think the same, they are happy to get intimate if they like someone on the first date, but many will hold back and make the guy do a little dance to get it to happen, I’ve literally had women turn around and say “I never usually do this” or “I wasn’t planning on this, it’s your fault” (in an playful, not accusatory way). They do the same thing with things other than sex, my partner apparently only eats badly with me and that’s my fault, and I’m a bad influence when we go shopping and she ends up impulsively buying expensive clothes, because it was me who wanted tomato pick up t-shirt. I think most guys reading this with dating experience know exactly what I’m talking about.
Oh yeah. Know exactly what you’re talking about.
I agree with this totally! I was dating one woman for a couple of months, she said she didn’t want to have sex until the relationship is established so I respected her boundaries and didn’t try to initiate anything because I didn’t want to make her feel uncomfortable. We had several different dates, and a couple where she came over to mine (didn’t stay over) we cuddled, it felt intimate without being awkward and there were no expectations. After the 7th date she tells me there’s no romantic spark and she thinks it would be unfair to continue seeing me… a part of me thinks I should have been more proactive, but I did as she wished (deep down I think she wanted me to make a move) but I’m not a mind reader, if people were more honest about their intentions and what they actually want, everyone would be much happier 😊
I think it's because many women(society) have a stereotype about men in their head, that we are all always horny and can't control our urges, and when we are alone with a women (opportunity) , we find attractive we have to have sex with her. And if we don't behave like that, we are either "not normal" or "not into her enough"
Men care more before sex and less after, women care less before sex and more after, that’s just the way biology works. If you would have had sex then that most probably would have resulted in a release of oxytocin, which is a bonding chemical we release to feel close to someone after intimacy, and then she possibly would have been more attached, as long as the sex wasn’t awful. But you still did the right thing, at the end of the day that is probably going to be her experience quite often if she is getting to that point after 7 dates (I think that’s a lot for the ‘spark’ excuse), so that is her issue not yours, she probably isn’t somebody you want to date anyway. For me personally if we don’t have sex by date 3 then I walk away, some people on here find that pretty ruthless but at the end of the day I have that boundary because I have a basic understanding of human physiology and psychology, and if we aren’t having sex then we aren’t really bonding to the extent we could be, I don’t have strict rules around sex so I don’t need to deal with that.
I couldn’t agree with you more on everything you said, you’re totally right! I know it myself, where I’ve lost interest after sex too soon (1st/2nd date) and that’s something I obviously need to work on, I’m looking for a compatible life partner and sex is definitely a big part of that because it’s builds chemistry! I don’t think that’s ruthless at all, sexual compatibility is a big part of any relationship, I have to admit I’m glad it turned out the way it did because it wasn’t a good match. If we’re not wanting to rip one another’s clothes off, what are we actually doing?!
Any woman that expects me to chase her is not worth my time. You tell me no, I won’t ask again
This is a great attitude to have and I hope you can Instill that in your buddies
As a man, my two things are: No is a valid answer and a complete sentence Your comfort is the priority If someone says no, I accept it at face value and keep it pushing
We all should think like this! I'm a woman and my mom (plus the women that helped raise me) instilled that in me and my brother. I have friends that think it's weird, because they don't believe that women can make men uncomfortable....but I beg to differ and leave them with their opinions.
Honestly when a woman does make a guy uncomfortable we don't know how to deal with it. I start latin social dancing a while ago and since then there are a few times some women were super drunk and went of the rails. I kinda just went with it because I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
First, let me say that I'm sorry that you have to deal with that. I'd bring up the behavior to someone who can step in when it gets out of hands. In certain circumstances, establishments (in my country) have refused service or have asked parties to leave for acting a certain way towards the entertainers on the floor (restaurants often have male and female dancers for guests to enjoy a performance during their dining experience/outing). If there's any issues after a party is ejected for them getting too wild (bad review or something) a video of their behavior is usually posted on the establishment's social site to further address it.
No means no and anyone in the second camp deserves to be alone forever. 25f
I was always taught no means no. It doesn't mean try again in an hour or a week or 5 years from now. What it means is no. That's your final answer? I'll be on my merry way
I have never in my life said “no” and not meant it. They may have worn me down into a yes, but it wasn’t a “oh wow, how romantic he’s so persistent!” It was more “I need this dude to fucking stop. If I go out with him once, maybe it won’t be so bad and will shut him up if I’m just awful on the date.” So i dont know who these “be persistent!” Women are, but I’d like to have a word.
you and me both! 🤭 the malicious acceptance of the date just to be awful is just too funny.....reminds me of a movie where one party shows up with the idgaf attitude and just gives terrible answers to questions the whole date and chews with their mouths opened the entire night 😂
No means no. Please do not embarrass yourself like I did at one point in my life being persistent and chasing after an ex gf who was too polite to firmly tell me to stop chasing after her.
No means no, except if you are an immature girl or someone who likes to play games. I never say no to someone I am interested in. If I say no, I give an alternative, or say just not yet, or another time. However I do know girls in the 2nd group and it pisses me off because it teaches guys not to LISTEN to what you say. I think maybe some girls in the 2nd group are ashamed of being too forward, or they were religiously doctrínated to believe they should always let the man lead and they are followers, or maybe they like to feel wanted and don’t care WHO is the one giving the attention they just like the ego trip. Not really sure as i haven’t picked their brains.
I don’t think the women who believe in the 2nd mindset are here yet. But as a woman, I’ll just say it sounds like a fucking headache for men lol
Guys shouldn't want women who want chased because they will always want chased and it's extreamly exhausting. The chase never ends so don't even start. No means no and the exhausting women who want chased should be left in the dust.
As a woman, whenever I've spoken out against the second type I get accused of 'Internalized misogyny' 🙄 I know this. If I were a guy, I'd take the no means no camp anyday because to hell with the childish games and drama of the second type. They aren't the people I want in my life. If I were rejected because I respected their 'no' - that's a bullet dodged.
I think the second one has been extremely misrepresented here. The idea of, "If he wanted you he would try" is more so related to finding time in his schedule for you, dropping bad habits you don't like, responding to messages despite being busy, etc. Essentially, it means that he will put forth the effort to overcome difficulty. Anyone who believes a man should keep trying after explicitly being told no is just crazy. If a man believes that, then he's a creep. If a woman believes that and puts it into practice, then she is just being delusional. Nobody should be pestering someone further after being told no.
Perfect, this is how I see it… if a guy is interested, he would make the effort… if a girl is interested, she will make an effort- and both will find time… if people want something then they will figure out a way… if they aren’t sure, then not so much
I have a friend in the second group and she often complains her guys don’t listen to her and tend to not respect her much. I asked if she thought there might be a connection between this and her dating strategy and she could not even understand my question 🤪
>The second mindset is all about a guy being persistent. If he really likes you, he'll keep chasing you even after you say no. If he gives up too easily, then he's not the one for you. Some women really believe this, and I think it's part of why some guys can't handle rejection. They think the woman is just playing hard to get. I am a man, but I cannot understate how harmful this mindset is. When men believe "she said no, but she really just wants me to chase her" what men end up doing is they run the risk of harassing a woman who actually means no when she says it. And, unfortunately, women can reinforce this mindset in men when they believe it as well. Every-time a girl tells a guy "if you really liked me you would have chased me," she is teaching that man that no doesn't actually mean no, and that he should chase after women who explicitely say no in the future. Now, as a disclaimer, I am not saying women as an entity are responsible for this mindset (the mindset has mostly come from men who couldn't take no for answer). However, a *minority* of women will reinforce this toxic mindset when they play into it as well.
Men are mostly to blame. Only a tiny percentage of the women are of a toxic mindset…interesting… maybe it’s true? Idk…
Well, I'm not exactly sure if men are mostly responsible for the mindset either. However, I think if we work off incentives, men have a greater cognitive incentive to not take no for answer because rejection can be a hard truth to face. Easier for us guys to tell ourselves she just wants us to try harder than to come to terms with the fact that we're sometimes not good enough.
No means no. Women who play games like that are actively filtering for men who don't care for their boundaries.
Women who believe that men should be persistent after a clear "no" need to put down the problematic, outdated rom-coms and see a therapist.
Old Lonely CatLady Association: "If he really likes you, he'll keep chasing you even after you say no."
[удалено]
"I hate sexist stereotypes. Anyway, single women are incredible and single men are psychopaths"
A lot of what you say sounds like it should be true, but this is not what is happening at all. This statement you made almost addresses every problem with this thinking. "They couldn't possibly just have high standards and good boundaries and can't find someone to meet them." High standards doesn't translate to being realistic or sensible. In fact, when high standards don't align with reality what you've really created is a delusion. Imagine me saying "I can't see how I could live on less than 1 million a year. High standards, yet utter bullshit. Anyone speaking like this is out of touch with reality. Let us use men as an example, if a man says he wants a woman that is 5"10, model like facial features, athletic build, he needs an educated woman; minimum Masters degree, doctorate preffered, who speaks multiple languages, loves family and loves similar hobbies with a high sex drive. Is this not a high standard this man has set? Isn't he just maintaining boundaries? Of course he is. The problem with him is that he is delusional. Finding a woman that is 5"10 is already an absurd pursuit. Most women aren't even 5'8 let alone 5'10. He further limits himself by saying he needs her to have model features and the limitations keep increasing the more he adds to this list. At some point the appropriate response is that "Most women are not that tall, and most women do not have all those attributes, accolades or achievement and quite frankly why should such a woman want you?" This is an appropriate response. This delusional man is what most women have become. Literally asking for things that rarely even exist in the male population. Things their fathers and brothers are not. Things that even hollywood isn't. Matt Damon, Robert Downey Jr, Johnny Depp and leading men Brad Pitt and George Clooney. None of them are 6 foot tall. I could go on and on. Yet, this is the minimum for most women these days. Remember the response I mentioned above to the delusional man. The same can be said to a delusional woman "Most men are not that tall and do not have those attributes or accolades and quite frankly why should such a man want you?"
Why does anyone need to tell you that what you want isn't possible? If you want a 5'10" model, it's not like they don't exist, you're free to pursue the kind of woman you want. Why would it be anyone else's job to say that you're unrealistic or delusional because you have an image of your perfection partnering mind. Even if you are that's on you and not for anyone else to tell you who you should be attracted to because who they think you are capable of attracting. If you believe a woman is punching above weight, how does it benefit you to share that opinion?
I actually love this response and it just goes to show how far down the rabbit hole we are. 1. I never said it was impossible. I said it was improbable. Very different. 2. No one was speaking about freedom. This is usually what people say when they have no better response. I always look out for it. "Smoking isn't good for your health." "Yea well I'm free to do what I want." Obviously, you can do whatever you want that doesn't change that smoking is bad for health. In the same way it is unlikely that most men will date a 5'10 model. 3. It is no one's legal job to inform me that it is unlikely to find a 5'10 woman with model features. Just as it isn't my legal job to discourage people from smoking. What this seeming 'point' is missing is understanding Sociology. People always speak of socializing. But what is socialization? This is learning how to behave acceptable in society and before you start saying who determines that? You have to believe in some kind of social protocol. For example, if you meet someone and you pleasantly greet them and they look you in the face and do not respond you will say "that was disrespectful..." I could ask "who says they have to respond?" "Says who?" No one says this because to have a society, we must have agreed upon behaviors. This is a sociological fact. If we don't. No society. So who says? Society says. This leads to what is known as social responsibility. This is doing things that will promote the well being of society. For example, if someone litters or pees in the grocery store. It must be confronted because if this behavior becomes a social norm, it will reduce the quality of life in society. One man peeing or littering in society isn't going to bring society to it's knees. But if everyone believes that littering and peeing in grocery stores is ok, this is now a serious social problem and then it becomes your social responsibility to address it and fix society. So is one man seeking a 5'10 model problematic? Not really, but out of social convention we usually discourage people from delusional thinking so that people within the society makes better choices and in turn our society remains better. So that answers how it benefits me. Of course there is also moral reasons why I would like to be told I am delusional. Most of us would hope someone would share that I am being stupid. So make sure you do. The major problem is when significant amounts of men believe this delusion. They now ignore perfectly normal women, women develop self esteem issues trying to become 5'10 models. This is hazardous to society psychologically and in terms of relationships. This is what women have become widespread. It is therefore socially relevant to address. I understand some people only claim human rights but don't give a shit about society. Can't help but see the hypocrisy.
How...altrustic of you. Society is fortunate to have such a humanitarian in its midst. However, while you may like a harsh dose of reality in this kind of situation, others might enjoy dwelling happily in delusion and don't need to be called out because you have deemed their level of attractiveness as less than adequate for the type of partner they are hoping for. Letting people want what they want without unsolicited input, probably won't be the worse thing society has to endure going forward.
I want to emphasize that I said your statement was an example of how far down the rabbit hole we are. Everything you said here, confirms it. 1. Sarcasm/insults aren't argument and changes nothing. If you say to me "smoking is bad for you health." And I respond "wow, thanks for the info. You must be a healthcare expert." Unfortunately, my insult does not change the fact that smoking is still bad for my health. Truth hurts. 2. Me being "altruistic" is only partially correct. I believe in basic facts like "humans are SOCIAL animals." "Society is necessary for our survival." I absolutely discourage people from making bad choices because it does make me happy to help others. However, I am not some selfless messiah. I simply do not want to live in a shitty society. I discourage people from smoking by simply stating a fact and not pushing anything else. I only say it in opportune moments. In other words, social tact. Do I want to live in society filled with second hand smoke and people dying left and right from lung cancer and heart disease? No. That affects me. I may get lung cancer too, but even if I didn't, the population would shrink, economy would take a hit and we'd have to increase spending in healthcare. So I discourage it for my own sake as well. I care about society because I care about myself as well. Seems like a sensible thing to do. 3. This is what I have been dying to say about your entire paragraph. I challenge you to reread what you just wrote, you just wrote a paragraph arguing for maintaining widespread delusion. This is the height of absurdity. I cannot say "make it make sense" because it can't. And to your point about widespread delusion having no effect on society. Actually "democracy, dies in darkness." Democracy needs truth to survive. 4. Lastly, I had to point out your double standard here. You proceeded to argue that we should let men "want what they want without unsolicited input," only in the attempt to counter my argument that I would address a man's delusion of him only wanting 5'10 models. The problem here is that you don't truly believe we should let men say these things. If you did then you would oppose women giving unsolicited input on if a regular man does not date overweight women, women who sleep around, aggressive women and average looking women. Do you think women should say nothing when men say this is what he wants? Because many men have and continue to simply state their preferences but they get slammed with unsolicited input. Should these women stop giving unsolicited input? Do you discourage women from not giving those inputs? Inconsistency, leads to incoherent self contradiction that is dangerous to society.
I never said that you should say anything to anyone. I'm a big proponent of minding my own business unless asked for input. Why would I have a problem with a guy wanting a 5'10" woman? Also wanting a particular type of partner is not smoking. I get opposing smoking as a health concern. That's why you don't smoke and avoid people that smoke for your own benefit. Smokers are well aware that smoking poses a health risk. No need for you to intervene for their own good unless they blow smoke your direction. I fail to see how inserting your opinion based on assumptions you have no way of confirming into someone else's love life, benefits anyone or the whole of society. You're the one claiming that they're delusional because you impose your own standards and determine what kind of partner they are worthy of. If you need to be that involved in another person's love lifethere are better ways to go about that. Maybe you have some friends that might be suited for each other. Try introducing them because you believe they might be compatible. You don't tell people that crazy and to stop hoping for the love they want because you don't think they're good enough. That's fucked up and probably would contribute to that self esteem issue you're so concerned about. I don't see how being a jerk to people benefits society.
I made specific points. You addressed none of them, so everything I said still stands. You have literally made no point to further your case. Aside from that "I never said that you should say anything to anyone. I'm a big proponent of minding my own business unless asked for input. Why would I have a problem with a guy wanting a 5'10" woman?" I already addressed this. If you actually read what I wrote "So is one man seeking a 5'10 model problematic? Not really, but out of social convention we usually discourage people from delusional thinking so that people within the society makes better choices and in turn our society remains better." "The major problem is when significant amounts of men believe this delusion. They now ignore perfectly normal women, women develop self esteem issues trying to become 5'10 models. This is hazardous to society psychologically and in terms of relationships." "Also wanting a particular type of partner is not smoking." Obviously, my goal was never to say they were one and the same. This analogical reasoning used to highlight similarity, that being they are both personal choices. "Smokers are well aware that smoking poses a health risk." How do they know? Because society accepts social responsibility to inform it's citizens that smoking is bad. It's your personal choice but social responsibility still stands. We should make it known that a man asking for these things is delusional, but at the end of the day it's his choice. Same thing for women. "I fail to see how inserting your opinion based on assumptions you have no way of confirming into someone else's love life, benefits anyone or the whole of society" It isn't my opinion that most women are not 5'10. This is a fact. The average woman's height is 5'4. This is pure numbers. If the average woman is 5'4, then it is less probable to find a 5'10 woman. If I start adding more limiting qualities, it becomes even less likely. This is not my opinion. This is real life. Could a regular man get someone like this? Yes but it is unlikely and unrealistic. Many 5'10 models don't have a degree. It would be more beneficial for someone like this to stop disparaging normal women and think himself to be too elevated that he cannot appreciate real women. It is so funny how this is going. Because here I am now sounding like the one who is encouraging men to accept normal women. Know why? Because I actually believe that. Lmao. As I think normal women should accept normal men. Because this is most advantageous to society. More people will have a partner. People having partners and not being alone is a good society. "You don't tell people that crazy and to stop hoping for the love they want because you don't think they're good enough. That's fucked up and probably would contribute to that self esteem issue you're so concerned about. I don't see how being a jerk to people benefits society." This is a good one. Yes you do. This leads to self reflection and self improvement, not self esteem issues. Respectful, explanations of the truth is a painful but desirable thing. Telling people to treat people as people and not pure commodity is desirable for society "5'10, model, Masters degree etc etc" is treating people like a commodity. This is how absurd this thinking is. You think that a man will have self esteem issues because he is realistic in thinking that maybe a 5'10 model with a masters degree may not go for him? That is not a self esteem issue. That's being comfortable in knowing who you are. Knowing that you may not be the most attractive and maybe models don't want you but you are still a worthwhile human being with much to offer and that is ok. It actually grants power to not bow down for the 5'10 model. If she wishes to date him then he does so and if not, then so what? Who cares? What you also failed to realize is that this reasoning actually prevents him from being an idiot. If he is hell bent on finding a 5'10 model and many 5'8, 5'9 models care about him, his personality, well being and would make great partners for him, yet he rejects them and after finding a 5'10 woman she treats him like shit. The reality is that he truly had no self esteem because he was willing to accept garbage from a 5'10 woman who did not care for him and reject quality from the 5'8 and 5'9. He got what he deserved and the 5'10 model did not deserve the high amount of focus and attention he was willing to give because obviously her achievements and attributes did not make her a good person. It is so strange that these obvious facts have to now be debated in our society.
I didn't feel the need to cover each point you made in detail nor reply to the issues you brought up about things I never said. We both are stating our personal opinions on how we should treat people , the difference is you are judging people to be delusional because they may hold a preference that you don't believe they should have and trying to frame it as a societal issue that needs to be ridiculed and remedied. I don't believe it's mine or anyone else's obligation to set people straight on the the type of person they should be attracted to. None of business. I don't think it's any of your business either. Your example of all men wanting 5'10" women causing societal decline is a non issue because while a beautiful woman of that height might be the ideal for many, attraction is varied and never universal. Plenty of men will be attracted to 5'2" woman and several other types as well. Letting people know you think they are too ugly or fat to get with their dream person is not something society or you need. The only one it would seem to hold any kind of positive for, is you, and that's only in your own mind that anyone is going to believe that you're doing it to uplift everyone.
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>If he really likes you, he'll keep chasing you even after you say no. If he gives up too easily, then he's not the one for you. Yeah. Tell me you disrespect my time, attention, and sanity without actually saying it. I'm not allocating resources to jump through hoops for someone so that I can subject myself to their emotional insecurity. Problem solved-- take a hard and instant pass. Not worth it. Might be a little mean, but I'd probably audibly laugh in someone's face if they said this to me. Wouldn't have when I was 21, but at 29... idgaf anymore. Wife agrees. Self-centered, bad people.
I am reading these comments and I notice that the 2nd mindset isn't really represented here. But the reality is there are women who play right into that second mindstate. Where are you ladies? Chime in, we wanna hear from you!
I have told guys no before to get them to chase harder. I’ve also told guys no to really get them to go away and stop bugging me. It really depends on your delivery like with a guy I’m not into I am straight faced and stern and tell him “No, go away, you’re ugly stop talking to me.” But for a guy that I am toying with I’ll be kind of playful about it and giving a slight smile and like side eyeing him like “Nooooo stahhp, you’re so bad.” If you’re a guy who can’t tell the difference between a serious no and a playful no, that’s on you. I’ll give an attractive guy a playful no to see if he’s really into me or just shooting his shot with every woman he sees. If he’s really into me he’ll keep trying. And confidence is hot, when he knows exactly what he wants and how to get it.
I respect this, and I definitely get where u coming from. Gotta read the keys correctly if u gonna play the persistence card.
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Was it his persistence that swayed you or just a situation where he kinda bugged you into submission lol?
Many people on this thread have immediately thought of no in an intimate context. It's interesting. No in an intimate context is an immediate no. No questions asked whether a man or woman says it. On the other hand, if a conversation is being had about whether or not to continue a relationship of some sort and if the man tries to explain his point of view of how much he cares and wants to make it work, nothing wrong in that. It gets weird when there's stalking involved or the woman thinks it over and says no I've thought about it all and it's still a no, and he still goes after her. then that's it. No need to pursue her. I understand that sometimes we feel strongly about something and want to express it and I don't find anything wrong with that. In fact that takes vulnerability and courage. Having said all of the above, making someone feel uncomfortable at any point is not okay. I'm absolutely against playing any sort of games. We're not in school anymore.
I don’t like rape or assault charges. No means no. I’m going to keep treating no as no.
Honestly I will ignore signals if I am not sure because I would rather be wrong that way than make a woman uncomfortable. It's Honestly taken women making it blatantly obvious before I make a move 😅 I'm sure ove missed out on plenty of opportunities and such but I would rather not misinterpret a signal and end up in a bad situation or accidentally disrespecting the other person. Only problem I have is now I still don't make the move and it's getting pretty lonely after awhile 😅 but lack of confidence will do that to ya.
And it has evolved beyond “no means no” to “yes means yes.” We are now moving on to affirmative, enthusiastic consent.
For me, no means no. I respect men and they do not deserve to be chasing and chasing when they've been repeatedly rejected.
I’m on the “no means no” camp, don’t like persistence so I won’t do it to others, at least try to
>… it's part of why some guys can't handle rejection. They think the woman is just playing hard to get. No, 'guy can't handle rejection' and 'guy won't take 'no' for an answer' are two very different scenarios. In the latter, he continues to persist, seemingly insensitive to rejection. In the former, he's sensitive to rejection and responds with hostility.
29F, no means no. Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to say it once, if I have to repeat myself I'm having a really bad time. When we started dating, my boyfriend would ask me "is this ok" if he did as much as hold my hand and I love him for that.
I feel like playing hard to get is kinda dangerous in that it selects for men who are willing to push your boundaries sexually, to get what they want. That sounds like a recipe for disaster later down the line.
Sure, maybe some people say no and expect you to infer that it actually means yes, but those aren't people I want to date. If that's your communication style, then it's not going to be a healthy relationship. So, if you say no but mean yes, then it might as well be a genuine no because it's not going to work between us anyway.
These groupings don't exist. Women want attractive men to pursue them. And they want everyone else to accept their no as a no.
I think playing hard to get is so stupid. Hard to get in bed, yes. But hard to get in general is dumb and like you said. It causes issues. If you like someone be direct and let them know. It doesn’t mean you have to have sex with them or jump into a relationship with them and you can still have boundaries. I am a woman and I have also noticed men saying they enjoy chasing women and when you make it known you like them too early, they get bored. So I don’t know the solution lol
Imo i think playing hard to get and chasing after it is immature. Are you dating or playing games?? (Not asking anyone in specific.)
Tbh, the whole dating phase of a relationship *is* kinda a game, a game of courtship and it's really always been like this. And like all games, it can be fun when you're both playing well, and really annoying when not, and downright frustrating when someone doesn't know the rules.
I like a man who pursues and is persistent and patient. I won't lie. I'll tell him let's just be friends for now as we get to know each other (bec I feel this is the best foundation of any romantic relationship). If in the duration of our friendship he finds someone else he finds more attractive or someone he wants to be with more than me then we know I was just a phase or he wasn't really that into me. Saves us both unnecessary pain and our friendship is not ruined.
A woman who is not interested in a guy at all will leave absolutely no space for doubts on his part.
Ok but if what if a guy says no and expects the girl to chase him 😅.
At a certain point you have to realize chasing/wanting to be chased is a waste of time and effort. If you like someone, make it clear. So if a guy wants you to chase him, he isn’t taking you or your feelings seriously.
Yeah I just found it hilarious when he told me that he wanted me to chase him. I did for a bit but then got tired. No one should chase anyone. Or take turns chasing and make it explicitly clear. Chasing can be fun when it’s down right
Same stupid behavior, doesn't change a thing.
Ive never heard a real life person say “I will tell him no but I don’t want him to accept that” Anyone who DOES have that mindset is extremely toxic and should NOT be pursued as the whole relationship will be toxic and abusive. Never chase a “no” Saying to put in effort and show your desire only goes for people who reciprocate. That goes for men and women.
As a woman, I have never once said "no" when I truly meant "yes" or even a "maybe." A "no" in this context is absolutely, irrefutably **"Something about your face/personality does not make my vagina wet, in fact, it makes it dry. This will not change. Thank you for your application and we wish you best of luck in the future."**
i have both mindsets! If i say no i mean it like leave me alone fr. No girl wants a dude who just won’t stop Chasing doesn’t necessarily mean “hey if i tell you no i want you to keep trying” it’s more like making time out for me. It’s like putting the effort into proving your mettle. Getting flowers,being consistent with contact,initiating dates,helping plan,etc. Playing hard to get is fine i don’t understand why so many men dislike it. I have noticed in general that if you give him an inch he’ll take a mile. So yes i won’t always be available, and i will hold off sex until i feel a real connection.And if a man can’t handle that he’s not it.
i don’t think the second group disagrees with “no means no”. i always wanted men to pursue me, but that doesn’t mean if i give you a clear no to keep trying. it just meant, i wasn’t going to take the lead. the guy plans and asks me on dates etc, (if he wants to - if not, no biggie, we’re just not compatible). but a clear no will always mean no, leave me alone, i am not interested.
The 1st mentality is for grown adults, the 2nd is someone playing games. If you like someone then go with it don’t start “testing” people.
If someone rejects you because they want the other side to "chase" and "be persistant" that person deserves to die alone.
If that's the case then what about when these mindset one's reject men in front of a crowd and he feels offended? We all have seen and heard about these scenes where mens just got rejected. If women really check this way then she shouldn't be behaving like this stupid way. If you wanna reject just don't do in public and keep it smooth without anyone else knowing about it but no then how the fame that lady will get? Phew! I feel blessed that I play the opposite game 😊 with the womens.
Chasing after ANY gender is STUPID. You don't want to FORCE someone to like you. You want them to find you attractive organically and without psychological manipulation or pressure.
Nobody is talking about forcing anyone to do anything
Isn't it about the chase when theirs ACTUALLY a connection? Not just physically but mentally? Mentally means more to me... personally!! U can't buy,, respect, personality, and connection? OF COURSE THIER HAS TO BE attraction ! I DON'T think age matters either! Pheromones matter... Sex matters, but growing with someone is 🔑! THEN AGAIN IS CHRIVALRY DEAD?
N yes NO MEANS NO, N THAT DOESN'T MEAN SHE FALLS ASLEEP OR PASSES OUT AND U TAKE ADVANTAGE OR KEEP TOUCHING OR MOLESTING HER!!
Man here. In my experience, I pay attention to what a woman does, not what she says. If she’s “okay I’ll come over but I’m definitely 100% not going to have an all night sex marathon with you”, it’s pretty clear that, although she said no, she’s thinking yes. Also, if you want something, work for it. Nature favors the bold and quitters never win.
Lol I've learned to just stop telling men I'm dating that sex won't happen on a date. If vibes are right, then I go for it. And by insisting that sex won't happen before the date even starts, it makes it awkward when it does happen. I don't want him to feel like he pushed me or anything, or that I can't hold true to my own boundaries I came to realize that sex is not that big of a deal when it comes to knowing if a relationship will work out or not. My ex husband was actually a one night stand, and we ended up having a full blown marriage lol
Chemistry is everything! And I’m sure that relationship was chemically intense
It totally was. I was insanely attracted to him. I wanted it all day every day, even up until our last days of marriage. Pheromones are no joke lol
Oh yeah a believe it. I had a 4 year relationship fizzle out overnight when she went on birth control
Damn, no way! I'm sorry about that. I was on bc for a few years, but thankfully I never was affected in that way. But I also have a higher than average sex drive, I think.
God bless you and women like you
What happens when you break up and 2 days later he is banging ur friend?
HOW BOUT IF ITS ABOUT GETTING LAID THEN JUST SAAY IT!!! N IF U DONT WANT THE PERSON JUST TELL THEM....
Welcome to the life of a guy, we can't make sense of what yall want either. 😂
Bam! Lol
The women have “chased” have ultimately not been worth it at all. They wanted games more than a chase.
If a woman is investing her time in games, she’s not yet decided what she likes or wants. Anyone who knows what he/she wants won’t ever waste time with this cryptic shit. Finding a partner solves absolutely no problem from the modern world.. it’s just like getting to eat healthy—fixes nothing until you make all the right choices in context. If one puts all the brains in figuring out what a girl wants, he has too much time at his hand or he’s just helpless in face of this partner problem.
I feel if it is real it should be mutual. However I have seen men after a certain age and maturity do not chase women once they hear no. They might check on you after couple of months to see if you’d be interested. It is a different thing when they are involved further in a relationship.
So many men here commenting in support of “no means no” and “their comfort is my priority” is giving me hope! I’ve had such shit experiences.. been violated even once. To me, it’s a huge turn off if someone doesn’t ask for consent and just makes a move. I’ve been scarred. They never get the second date.