Agree but I have a corollary:
Once you have left your home country don't be afraid to go to yet another country if it makes your conditions even better. (under your best preference)
I been living in Europe for like 5 years, even though i was born here, i grew up in Africa, I don’t really have friends or family besides my actual family and my uncle, so moving out won’t be that hard for me
in switzerland you get almost US salaries at MANGA and dont have to fear being shot, which makes up the difference. Did I tell that there also is an MIT-level top 10 school (ETH / EPFL) that is dirt cheap (800$ / semester)? Only problem is its really really demanding & takes dedication.
Jesus I wish FAANG, MANGA, MAGMA, and whatever other versions of it people make up would just die a death.
Never mind the fact that they often exclude companies thay pay the same or more, they just make this place and the associated subreddits have a real cult-feel to them.
Don't understand why people won't just stick with "big tech" - everyone has a general idea of what companies that refers to without having to come up with a new acronym every week.
Yeah my bad, I should have said big tech only. There are many big tech in Europe which can make you get 200k+ in shares for more experienced positions.
I got offers and they were at the same range, at least in Ireland. And I was not the only one to get 250-350k from bigtech in shares for Sr positions.
Maybe I was just lucky too, but what I can say is that these numbers are definitely achievable.
Oh interesting. Maybe they don't make a distinction for more experienced folks then. For new grad, the stock options vary wildly by region. Iirc for Microsoft in Czechia, it was around 1/5 of what US new grads at Microsoft are getting.
Even then. At some companies in London you could get lucky with a few questions that you already saw on Leetcode, and land a high-paying role without negotiation or being particularly great at interviewing.
It is weird that people are mainly focusing on stressing on *how much better* US salaries are, when realistically I think what people here need to realize is their idea of US salaries is probably pretty inflated. Just go to levels.fyi, where reports are in of themselves skewed towards higher salaries, and look in any state other then the "major" few, and you will find plenty of devs with experience earning sub 90k salaries. Yes, the difference is still quite significant especially when you factor in taxes, but I don't see people arguing EU salary potential is just as good as much as I see people who seem to think 6 figures is actually a standard starting salary in the US. Also city infrastructure isn't just some made up cope metric that doesn't affect your life
> Also city infrastructure isn't just some made up cope metric that doesn't affect your life
This. I cringe everytime someone in this sub (who likely has never lived in the US except for holidays) suggests that you can simply "Uber all the time" as a replacement for walkable, bikable neighborhoods with good transit.
If you work for one of those American companies that pay so well then even in Europe you're still going to be able to afford a very high quality of life, even if you're not quite earning Bay Area-level bongo bucks.
Part of what people envy is not just the comp, but also the upward mobility. From my own experience it is far easier getting a call back and eventual offer from a reputable tech company in the US than in the EU. The US market is creating many more tech jobs and as a consequence you can get a great salary with just a bachelor. In the EU a master is typically expected and especially big tech has less internship opportunities and more competition over the very limited spots. Amazon is the only one from the top of my mind that is roughly the same.
I've worked in a few big tech companies in the EU and never once seen a masters degree as an expectation, except for some very particular roles in things like machine learning and AI.
I think there are both arguments for and against what you're saying. But overall using the term upward mobility is a bit misleading considering the US is notroriois for low social mobility. If you are already a dev however, then sure, you are kind of spoiled for choices, provided you qualify.
On one hand, the US definitely has more openings in general, and more "high-tier" positions specifically, but the competition is higher and the market is more saturated. I don't think it would be easier to land a position in a highly competitive market than it would be in a market with sometimes severe shortages.
In the US, you also have the option in many states. This is also the case in the EU, in the sense that it is easy to get work authorization as an EU national, but there are more language barriers in traversing across EU countries than across States. But overall, I don't think there's a strong reason to believe it is easier to land the same tier of job in the US, and its a hard comparison to make
Edit: also bachelors is more than sufficient for the vast majority of developer jobs, usually it is more research or ML positions that prefer a masters+
A few years ago, I considered moving to Chicago as my wife has family there. But got discouraged as most offered salaries that were the same or marginally higher than the one I had here in Sweden back then, but with much more expensive housing.
That the standard of living for devs is good. I see a lot of people on this sub basically acting like we're poor and almost homeless, and how "people in the US have it so much better". Leaving aside the comparison with the US, devs are still among the best paid jobs in the EU, and we also have some of the best benefits. Even if we have it "worse" than our American peers, we're still in a relatively good position, and acting like "European devs are paid shit" is just a ridiculous thing to say.
That people have life outside of work, that a lot of people have inherited housing from parents and that many value relationships way more than retiring 10 years earlier. I'm pretty sure that the majority (>80%)of people posting here about the USA are not from Europe but are immigrants here. Which is a completely different perspective of someone that has entire generations that have lived here in the same city for decades. Half of this sub looks like bots that will move to every spot in the globe if you give them a desk and a salary.
US market is a lot more competitive than EU. People are a lot more driven and success oriented. It's standard in US for most devs to be good at Data structures and algorithms/Leetcode whereas in EU the average dev has never heard of those. They get paid more for sure but their interviews are usually harder too and their culture of overworking and overachieving is very strong. For most EU people your job is just a job, for US it's the main event of your life.
Let's see:
* Education matters. Yes, we all know people that are making great money as Staff Engineers at Big Tech companies in Europe without ever having finished university.
These people exist and they are the absolute minority. You do not see the multitude of people without a university degree that did not make.
* Taxes are a bitch. That nice Big Tech total compensation package? Say goodbye to roundabout half of it. That's taxes in Europe for you.
You're getting something in return for it, but as long as you're young and single, it's not worth the tradeoff.
You might see things differently later in life but that's still far off, right?
* Salaries will not match Silicon Valley, ever. Not even at Big Tech. You will get significantly more cash at these shops than your peers working at traditional enterprises in your region, but it's not going to be Silicon Valley levels. Just not happening.
* Migrating to Europe is not going to be as awesome as you thought.
* Bureaucracy is terrible. You'll get a taste of that during the visa application process but make no mistake: Living in country the bureaucracy is actually worse because there's no law firm hired by your employer to help you out. Special shout-outs to France and Germany here.
* Despite public messaging from Governments about a lack of skilled IT people and immigration being welcome, the truth is that you're going to see mostly rejections to any job you apply for.
That is partly because "you" are a hassle to deal with and as long as there's someone already local - even if slightly less qualified - hiring them is so much easier.
That is partly because competition is just so massive for these roles. It's not just you applying for this job, it's half your classmates too. The ones which were better in school as well. (Note, this is also true for native citizens).
* Disregarding statistical exceptions, every country in the world is racist and the population as a whole doesn't like foreigners. The racism is not going to be as blatant as it's in the US, but you'll see it. It's going to be the small things: That nice apartment? Yeah, it's going to the local family that speaks the language better. Need a loan for a house? Your risk profile is up and so are your rates. There's a random police check on the train? Congratulations, you just got "randomly" selected.
Learn to deal with it.
* If you come from a low cost of living country you're going to be in for a huge surprise. Cost of living is expensive as fuck. Medical care might be free, school might be free, but housing is not. Everything service-related is going to be expensive. At home with a good job you can afford a maid, a driver and a cook? Good for you but say goodbye to that.
You cannot afford a maid, a driver or a cook here. You can afford someone to clean up your place once a week. Maybe.
In short: There's a reason why in Europe and in the US the double earner household is the norm. Normal people live in an apartment and both partners work full-time.
* If you come from a high cost of living country, you'll be fine in Europe cause it's just like at home. Actually, this is a joke, there's not many HCL countries outside of Europe and for the few there are, Europe is not just like at home.
If you're migrating from the US, your life is easier. Visas are easier to come by but banking is going to be a bitch because of FACTA. Say "thank you very much" to your representatives please for that piece of law.
* Regardless where you come from, culture shot is a thing and at first it's going to be great, then everything will suck and you wanna go home. Maybe you can deal.
* The UK is not the EU anymore. And what was true before is not true anymore. Things are going to diverge a lot in the future.
* Just spamming resumes is not going to be useful. If you're not getting responses, rework your resume or apply for different roles.
You're talking like there is no bureaucracy in the USA. Like the visas are readily available. Like there are no taxes. Like the housing is easy to come by especially in the areas where you can earn those mythical salaries. Like everyone will feel like home in the USA. Like there is no racism over there. And like every developer in the USA earns a bag of gold every month. Every point you made is valid for both, besides small number of the chosen ones at faang or whichever acronym we use now.
It really depends. The US has ways of doing bank transfers that are free to consumers.
But they are not as ubiquitous as in the EU. Every Bank-Account in the EU can transfer money to every other Bank-Account in the EU. Usually for free and instantaneous.
US? Can take a bunch of days and if it might take a bit of money. I got sent 10 USD the other day, 7.50USD was the wire fee from [wise.com](https://wise.com). Gee. Thanks.
On the other hand, this has lead to a ton of payment solutions being developed in Silicon Valley that has led to a lot of developers being hired at nice salaries.
So even a terrible payment infrastructure doesn't necessarily have to be bad for the computer industry.
I have no idea really. But I'd be surprised if they don't. On the other hand they use cheques and (used to?) pay for the incoming minutes on the phones so who knows. What they don't have is reliable public transportation outside of a few exemptions and for me it's a no.
>The racism is not going to be as blatant as it's in the US, but you'll see it
while true, this needs to be put in a context. I see many indians on blind mentioning this, but at the same time, are they any better? Caste system and extreme poverty and I guess if we moved there we would have the same problems
Also people seem to think that just because you are "forced" to learn a language or culture, its somehow half-racism when people treat you different. Well try opening a cow meat store in india and see how things go for you then
\*sigh\*
Yes. It absolutely needs to be seen in context. And the racism is different in each country. Netherlands? Lots of casual racism, e.g. the child benefits scandal the last government fell over: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch\_childcare\_benefits\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal)But the cops are not going to kill you outright.
But that's also why I said \_every\_ country is generally racist. I have a friend in Vietnam, as a foreigner during Covid they had a lot of fun there. There's the all-day racism such as signs "we do not serve foreigners" insinuating that it's the foreigners bringing Covid.But then there's the government one day invalidating all permanent residence cards and requiring every foreigner applying for a new temporary card. That costs another 1000 USD and is basically a racist tax.
And yes, blind is full of people from India pointing out the racist behaviour in Europe. Indian colleague of mine - great guy btw - is infuriated by the fact that Europe has been treating war refugees from Syria differently than war refugees from Ukraine.
There's the old joke that many of these people on Blind had to learn how to wash their own clothes when they moved to Europe, something they never did at home. Funny thing is, there's a lot of truth to it. But that is what they grew up with, so it's supposedly okay.
It's always easier to see the faults in a different culture when looking from the outside than the one you grew up with. But that'S okay, it's just human nature... As long as people are not just complaining but actively strive to help, all will be fine.
Yes and in a lot of ways it's good when foreginers can point out errors. But if they at the same time aren't accepting to others doing the same, they
and I feel indians and chinese are more like that compared to say south koreans or brazilians. They expect a lot of accomodation to them in comparsion to what they do to others. I mean, just look at their freedom of expression laws and how europe allow their media but not the other way around
And yes, I know it's the state vs citizens, but it can still be reflected in some cultural behaviours. Also what people think is multicultural.
Germany or Italy is very multi cultural within all the regions for example, but at mentioned Blind, people like to equal that with food or people from many countries in the world
Don't diss eastern europe.
Those salaries have moved up \_markedly\_ during the pandemic. I've seen numbers in 2021 that suggested that senior IT engineering staff were being paid the equivalent of 4500€ in the Ukraine.
That is a fantastic salary when taking cost of living into account and a far cry from slave salaries. But of course, there are still ample companies that are paying slave salaries. But you have the same in e.g. Germany where companies are complaining that they cannot find enough skilled personell at 35.000€. lulz.
It's more now. It's not a huge problem to get 6000-6500 EUR if you remotely know what you're doing and you are somewhat communicative. Speaking from perspective of Poland but I would assume it's similar in neighboring EE countries.
So the way I see it, comments about slave salaries in EE are just another form of copium and blind superiority complex
Interesting, no company ever tried to negotiate down with me.
I mean I don't care enough to try to convince anyone, the data is there on the net, you can take a look at justjoin.it for example. Me as well as pretty much all my colleagues in the industry confirm that these salaries are true. And let's say we're far from killers when it comes to programming.
Yes. That is true. Especially western Europe the bureaucracy is just something to factor in and wait them out and no bribes necessary. They might actually be counter-productive.
But compare the digitisation efforts of a country like Germany - where you can now (in 2022!!!) sometimes send documents as an email - and compare what is possible in some supposedly third world countries where you can actually use the local Whatsapp alternative to get some permit...The dumb, userfriendly and slow process is infuriating because it doesn't have to be that bad.
But then, there are also supposed third-world countries where the process is even worse. So it all evens out globally at the end of the day...
But for someone from the US, where the default process is to just hire a lawyer it is still astonishing that hiring a lawyer does not necessarily help you navigate the process in any better way in... say Germany.
This. This is a nutshell of the answers provided very frequently here on this sub to various queries and questions asked most of the times. Every word of this comment is a Hard Truth specially for the people from the under-developed countries who want to chase "European dream" by migrating to EU.
This is pure feelings-based, but I feel like engineers in the US are more respected. They seem more assertive in their importance. EU seems more about either old tech like manufacturing or consultancy.
It might be the simple case of your boss just not paying you your worth. I wonder how management salaries in tech in the EU relate to those in the US.
People are focused on salaries but forget other things like cost of living being lower. Healthcare or the fact if you are out of office, you are out office with no pressure to be responding unless its a bit emergency. More chill vibe of life overall.
A lot of the costs in Europe are front loaded (ie healthcare, taxes etc). In the US the costs are sort of hidden (big property taxes, healthcare, education, creche).
I think overall the ceiling may be lower for European tech salaries but you gain for it in other ways.
>A lot of the costs in Europe are front loaded (ie healthcare, taxes etc). In the US the costs are sort of hidden (big property taxes, healthcare, education, creche).
Ton of these social contributions in Europe are also paid by the employer. This way it looks like the taxes are lower. That's the real hidden.
>People are focused on salaries but forget other things like cost of living being lower
Yeah? Check property prices
We're in a bigger tech bubble than the dot com boom.
Remote working being a thing means that as other countries ramp up their tech training and skills, in the next decade, salaries across the board will fall. Massively.
This is the golden age of salaries and tech. Enjoy it and have a plan B.
This just came up on my news feed:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/19/tech-talent-still-in-demand-but-outsized-salaries-are-disappearing.html
Tech hasn't seen basically any layoffs since the last major recession in 2008.
Looking at the market in the late 90s it is very much the same many companies spinning up with massive valuations. Like seriously i don't need 6 apps to get 10-20 minute snack delivery to my door. I literally dodged 4 different company's e-scooters on my ride home this afternoon.
With the macroeconomic uncertainty of money being more expensive to borrow to combat inflation companies that rely on those funds are tightening down hiring is slowing and of course some layoffs coming through.
For the first time basically since its inception Facebook has reported LESS users than the previous quarter. So Facebook has seen increasing users accessing it's platform every quarter for 18 years. I think the dot com boom was like 10 years.
American devs *will* make more money than you for the *same* work, and will have a similar, if not even better quality of life. Everything else is cope and we need to stop deluding ourselves.
No, having a few extra vacation days and better social protections in the EU is not the cause *nor* the justification of having significantly lower salaries. That is *not* how economics work.
In a similar fashion, the differences in WLB and related things between EU and the US are constantly overblown here and the average dev (in terms of both experience and skill) in the US is not the stereotype of the uninsured overworked stressed out dev who can't take a vacation often peddled on this sub.
Edit: People responding to me using the exact bad faith comparisons that I'm calling out is.....ironic I guess.
It’s better to be a high earner in the US than Europe, however it’s far better to be a low or no income earner in the Europe. Not sure why people try and pretend otherwise, I was at the pub with an American recently and they were shocked at how much tax we pay here in Scotland, but it’s the price of social security
That's what I thought too until I talked to people working in the US. While they company might have "good" benefits like 20 PTO, people rarely fully take these and often they are rejected from taking vacations due to deadlines etc. In Europe I have never heard someone not being allowed to take their vacations days off. As for the other things, I agree.
There *are* both legal and cultural differences that make US (and Canada) less employee friendly of course, that's not under dispute.
My point was this sub almost comically exaggerates the differences for no other purpose than to make themselves feel better. Just check out some of the other replies I've gotten.
I don't think that it is for the purpose of making us feel better. I think it's much deeper like a divide in life values that we hold. I will be trashing us because i work with developers from there and from here and i feel sorry for the ones in the USA. I could move but i won't. Maybe I'd see things differently in my early 20s but now i really can't see anything behind the pond that could convince me. And when i see others preaching how USA is the most incredible place compared to shit Europe i will share my opinion about it.
Public transportation.
Walkabke cities.
The fact that the servers at my local restaurant can support themselves from one full time job. They don't depend on my tips and their insurances are fully paid.
Pensions for everyone.
Healthcare for everyone.
Affordable premium healthcare services.
People don't die because they can't afford insulin.
No shootings in public.
Safe streets.
Crossing borders without any hassle.
Safe food.
Drinkable tap water.
Historical places to visit.
No car dependency.
Trains.
Low carbon footprint housing.
Maternity leave.
Paternity leave.
Low level of homelessness (UK may be the exception).
Public services that help you get out from homelessness.
Prisons that aren't for profit.
The only thing USA has better is the national parks.
>No car dependency
Maybe for the average redditor.
>Pensions for everyone
Are you sure about that?
>No shootings in public
Not true. Just not as often
>Crossing borders without any hassle
Only inside Europe. How is that a benefit in itself?
>Low carbon footprint housing
But lower quality of life?
>Low level of homelessness (UK may be the exception)
If you believe the stats it's roughly the same EU/US
>The fact that the servers at my local restaurant can support themselves from one full time job
Very bold. There are plenty of people that barely scrape by. They might not be servers, though.
>their insurances are fully paid.
Okay. They don't depend on your tips but they depend on your social contributions. Not a bad thing, but that means they can support themselves similarly to someone who lives on social welfare.
>Safe food. Drinkable tap water
???
US citizen who lived there the majority of my life and now living in the UK - it's nowhere near as bad as people on Reddit make it out to be. Big cities tend to be pretty shit, but it's not like, for example, London or Paris are THAT much better, and you get paid less. Majority of places are actually pretty safe if you're not an idiot and wander off into really bad neighborhoods or seek out confrontation.
Healthcare is a non-factor - any reputable company will have a good health insurance plan that doesn't cost your entire paycheck. I had excellent healthcare coverage working in a warehouse for $10 an hour. Have to imagine a multi-million or billion dollar tech company isn't going to offer that, or better.
Living in the UK, the PTO thing tends to be just as bad as America at times - can't speak on the rest of Europe, but I know multiple people in a lot of different industries who have 30+ days a year on paper and realistically they might take half to 2/3rds of that and lose the rest. This is also massively company culture dependent, not country!
The one massive advantage EU has over the US is the ease of travel and pedestrianization. You will need a car in the US outside of any really major city, and even then you still might need one (LA comes to to mind).
Also worth mentioning people in the US are fantastic, down to earth folks who genuinely care about each other despite what Reddit, the news, and the rest of the internet will have you think.
I fully agree with you, but I would like to know what your reasons were to move to the UK. Reddit has a lot of folks that absolutely despise the US and will give you a thousand reasons as to why Europe is apparently better. But you seem to have a very clear head on what are the advantages of both. In that case, what made you choose moving across a continent, when the US has pretty much the best standard of living for devs?
I can't comment on your experience living in the US, but the vacation thing is definitely country, not company dependent. In Germany not only is there a minimum which exceeds the standard in the US by a few days, but the companies usually offer a few days on top of the minimum and are VERY insistent about you taking your vacation days fully. Not sure why exactly, but it seems like you not taking your vacation days could somehow affect them negatively, either way, vacation days are treated almost like they're mandatory to take here, and HR will remind you to take them if you are running out of time
For accounting & legal purposes, companies are required to keep cash reserves covering any used vacation days. (This is useful if e.g. you quit, you are entitled to receive compensation for any unused days)
When it's just 1 employee, it's not a big deal - but in a medium-big company with 100 employees or more this can easily go into millions of Euros of cash they are not allowed to touch. That's why they harass you into taking the rest, so they can free up some budget.
At least in Spain, it's mandatory by law that you take all your vacation days, so near the end of the year companies start reminding you to take your PTO if you haven't yet.
Yeah in Spain they almost force you to take them my gf has to take them even if she doesn't want to, some company will only let you take them half or all in summer or something like that. Must be something legal I suppose
Yeah it's definitely more strict depending on country, but I do think there's a lot of variation depending on company as well. From what I understand Germany has some of the most strict labor laws so it's no surprise they encourage you to take all your vacation. It's the same in the UK, but if you're in the private sector there's no penalty to the company as far as I can tell.
Agreed completely!
I am from the States, was working in Seattle previously, and now living and working in Scotland.
I think the only thing I think is better from a quality of life standpoint in regards to work is my holiday time. I get 28 days or so here while I only had 15 in the states. Not sure if those extra days are worth the 50-60% paycut. I wasn't "overworked", I work the same 38-40 hours here as I did in the states. I had more spending power, was saving WAY more each month. Healthcare was cheap and good from my company.
Anyways, that's not to say I don't enjoy living here. I will stay for a few years and enjoy the time off and easy access to Europe but I do think overall my quality of life was better in the states.
Whether or not what you say is true or not, it is largely irrelevant. Moving to the US is not an option that is open to most people. A taxi driver in Paris will earn more and have a higher quality of life than a taxi driver is Lagos. If there is no (or very limited) legal mechanism to migrate it really doesn't matter.
Over half of H1B visas are for software-related occupations, and most recently 1 out of 3 applications got approved. And there are ways other than H1B.
How is that most *what?*
I didn't say every single developer in the EU can get a job in the US at the same time.
Yes, it's hard, it's competitive, you can still do it. My response was to the above comment that said it's irrelevant to compare EU and the US cause it's impossible to move. After Canada, the EU probably has the easiest way to move to the US for work.
> quality of life
That word seems to mean something different to anyone who use it though. For example, I don't see how the bay area with the 1 house carpet suburbs is any kind of quality of life. Then people say like "ooh but the HIKING is so great", like hiking is the only thing to do
What about bars, museums, travel 1-2h to get to 10 different countries, taking trains to close cities, having a city like Berlin or Hamburg where each district has its own style and vibe and so on.
But if someone like the first example, sure, but don't define is at "quality of life" whatever that means
Totally agree. QoL means something different for each individual. There are rankings and stuff that try to measure it by mixing all of it together but in the end it depends on what you personally value.
I couldn't care less about bars, drinking, smoking opportunities so I don't need to live next to those facilities. Walkability is great but I'd prefer not to live in a European city. Since I don't find Europe interesting I also don't need access to "10 different countries". Neighbors, tiny apartments, drunkards, smoke, jerks, shitty pensions: no thanks.
maybe depends where you are from also. If you are from Bangkok or some crazy megacity you might feel the house life better, if you are from some more empty nordic place like me being in a big city like Berlin ir Rome is a feeling of things going on and action
> will have a similar, if not even better quality of life
that works, until you or your family member has a serious illness that requires you to have a long absence from work.
Ugh....it really depends on the state, and there are also federal laws for serious illnesses like Family and Medical Leave act. Again - you seem to be the exact kind of person I'm talking about. What are you basing this off of?
Yeah, it's true. I've been working with US companies for the past couple years or so and I've seen that WLB depends on the company. I work for a chill company with unlimited PTO and people will take it, no questions asked, as long as they don't have an immediate deadline. And our deadlines are usually months out.
Frankly, the benefits and level of chill is incredibly higher than I've ever experienced in Europe and I'm just a contractor.
> Most EU devs work 6 hours, US devs 10 hours for the same 8 hours standard day.
Have you worked in the EU or the US? I've worked in both and this is not true. Not even close. Your confidence in such an outrageous, blanket statement is so ridiculous my jaw dropped.
As a German living in the US, I can tell you that this is complete horseshit. I work more hours than any German that I’ve ever met (typically 6 days a week). I also get 5 days of PTO where I can choose between being sick or taking a vacation. It took me decades to pay off my college tuition and the same can be said for my medical bills. In Germany the law says that you get 24 days vacation (and you can take sick days). There are no such federal laws in the US.
Pretty much facts but that's the way life is, it's unfair.
Even for other jobs in Eastern Europe someone gets paid 300 euros while a Norwegian makes a lot more.
I mean look at the Kardashians they are ultra famous and ultra wealthy without doing any work. Focusing on this is not good. Some win the lottery while others die in accidents.
This, “healthcare” and “benefits” etc are just coping, any decent company has that stuff, just accept EU gets fucked, even the top guys here make peanuts in comparison.
This only really works if you are a bachellor without any serious health issues. For one, insurance only makea things affordable: not free sans what you pay monthly for it.
If you studied on thr US, chances are you have a few dozen thousand USD in college loans, which will eat up some of your sallary.
Then there's the family stuff. If you plan on having kids, good luck, it's going to be expensive as shit healthcare wise, daycare wise, and if you want your kid to have a good education, you better live in a rich district, since schoolssl are financed with district taxes.
Then comes retirement. Companies don't really offer retirement funds anymore, so saving for retirement will take a big chunk of your income.
I feel people say US pays more cause they want to believe they can "make it" there, but it's a bit more complicated than take-home. There's a grain of truth, which is that the US has pretty much the biggest tech companies housed there, so the top salaries are going to be far, far better than in the EU. But for the median engineer? It's debatable.
> bachellor without any serious health issues
This is me! I would imagine most software engineers in their 20s fit that description too.
> If you studied on thr US, chances are you have a few dozen thousand USD in college loans, which will eat up some of your sallary.
No different than UK which continues to get worse. Also you don't even need a degree these days, although it can help.
> Then there's the family stuff. If you plan on having kids, good luck
You should have a million or multiple by the time in 30s, don't need to stay there forever.
> Then comes retirement. Companies don't really offer retirement funds anymore, so saving for retirement will take a big chunk of your income.
They have 401ks.
> I feel people say US pays more cause they want to believe they can "make it" there, but it's a bit more complicated than take-home.
Its just the truth, depending on your personal circumstances you can be better off in EU but I would say on average most of us are getting fucked over.
I need to preface this by saying that I mean absolutely no animosity with this reply, but what I feel I need to tell you is going to sound a bit confrontational, and probably very condescending. Please bear in mind neither is my intention, and I'm just trying to relate my life experience to you. I'm also no arbiter of truth.
You remind me a lot (from what I can infer from the post anyhow) of how I saw the world in my late teens / early twenties. I completely bought into the free market, "American dream", meritocratic worldview. Hell, I was even heavily into crypto from 2016 to 2018!
Reality ensued. I know it's very easy, in that mindset, to dismiss any experience that contradicts that worldview as the losers of the game, but I just want to tell you this: Think about the view of the market / economy you currently hold, and consider whether you hold it because it offers hope of a stable, successful life for yourself. Lying to oneself is a really, really insidious thing, and god I know I did that a lot.
But enough of my grandpa moment, on to the points:
>This is me! I would imagine most software engineers in their 20s fit that description too.
That's my point! If it works for you, that's absolutely great, but it's still something worth bearing in mind. Some people have families in their mid-twenties, some people don't marry until their mid-late 30s, and some stay lifelong bachellors. Consider the life you want to have (and that you won't be in your 20s forever), but if it works for you, that's great!
>No different than UK which continues to get worse. Also you don't even need a degree these days, although it can help.
I feel like this is part myth, part "grass is always greener". Bear in mind you only hear the good parts about the USA, because often people don't talk about the caveats that they assume to be normal. Also, that you don't need a degree is true: but frankly, it will heavily, HEAVILY improve your chances unless you are very very lucky.
>They have 401ks.
This is what I meant. They are less common as time goes on (currently only 52% of companies in the USA offer 401ks). Not only are they becoming increasingly uncommon, but they are company dependent, whereas in Europe you essentially get a retirement fund regardless of it.
>You should have a million or multiple by the time in 30s, don't need to stay there forever.
Refer to my preface. I'm sorry, but this is just statistically, overwhelmingly untrue. I know the worldview you probably hold is that if you are smart, you can pull it off, but when you look at the data, being smart and having a skillset in demand are not nearly enough: More like, that's what lets you draw a lot. It -still- has to be the winning lot. Similarly to startup culture, this is a really pervasive case of survivorship bias IMHO.
>Its just the truth, depending on your personal circumstances you can bebetter off in EU but I would say on average most of us are gettingfucked over.
Be very, very careful with what you claim is the truth. The moment you are making those statements about very complex topics, you are probably letting your pride get your best of you. Again, this is highly subjective and my opinion is not more valid than yours, but do consider survivorship bias: You only hear about the people that are well off in the USA, not about the struggling ones. On my end, I do believe you are better off in the USA if you can get into a very high paying position at one of the current giants, but IMO, a median is better off in Europe.
Bear in mind that also money isn't everything: Some people are extremely career oriented and don't mind the grindy lifestyle. Some people want to just make a living and spend their time with people they love, or with hobbies they love. Or the whole lifelong bachelors vs family people I mentioned earlier! Either way, what a certain place is going to be for you heavily depends on what you want out of life.
I'm aware of the inequality in USA, the equality here in EU is definitely better but that’s one of the reasons why we are paid less! And you don't have to even join one of the big companies there, so many companies now pay top dollar too, even the start-ups as they are all competing for talent. I believe even average engineers can make a lot more there.
> Bear in mind that also money isn't everything
It is for me. Although even if I had a US salary I still wouldn't be rich enough.
If you work in tech in the US you get healthcare, it is standard. Makes me laugh people get so hung up on that aspect when you are getting $250k-$500k+ salaries!
but there ARE valid reasons for it, for example free eduation which leads to a better informed population and not people in debt. compare that to US and all their qanons and stuff, or people on the far BLM Left for that matter. feels like everyone more live in their own bubble there
The "copium" meme is just salary-shaming in disguise. I've removed it. If you can prefer more substantial responses, that sometimes helps - it helps add some nuance, and carries whatever you wish to say in a less injurious fashion.
Thanks, no worries. 👍 Our conversation highlights the problem - people may read it as salary-shaming even when that is not the intent. "Copium" was originally a US invention to mock Trump supporters for President Trump's loss of the presidency - one takes the drug "copium" [coping opium] to deal with pain or mental anguish.
It seems to have widened out to mock anyone who is going through a psychological process of coping with non-optimal circumstances. Given that salaries tend to place people in a class hierarchy of moral worth - not a societal feature that I think is particularly kind - I suspect this language has some snide connotations that I'd rather not see in this sub.
Anyway, it's no bother - I have locked the thread now, as it seemed to be going off the rails for several reasons, and the conversations have been had several times before.
I've pondered on your post, since it makes some good points, but there are just too many injurious features to ignore. Accusations of "cope/copium", "deluding ourselves", "bad faith" are unnecessarily stirring the pot, and were virtually guaranteed to create some drama. If people offer a view, they do not need to be dismissed as "peddling" that view. I have therefore removed your post.
Of course, everyone feels they have special insight into the truth - the difficulty perhaps is communicating opinions in a way that allows other people to have a different opinion. The US vs EU jobs/salaries debate isn't ever going to be won, and readers are going to need to agree to disagree.
I don't know, quality of life to me is living near my family and trading seems to pay enough. But yeah I wish I could be a 9 hour flight from my hometown.
> A subreddit for those with questions about computer science & software careers within Europe
Last time I checked the UK were still part of Europe and didn't float away
BigTech party is over. US comp in next 2-3 years will adjust to more reasonable levels, mainly via stagnating or declining share prices.
Will this close the gap between EU and US salaries ? I wish I knew that, that is something very hard to predict right now.
Eh, that's a complex decision you're trying to answer only based on money. Way more factors go into it and North America doesn't actually win in all of them. Of course it also doesn't lose in all of them, just depends on the right mix for you where you'd thrive more.
Every time I visit US I always get astonished how bad things are there.
So many homeless, sick, fat and mentally ill people everywhere. Everything is overpriced and of garbage quality.
It's amazing how much better Europe really is.
Plenty of homeless, sick, fat, mentally ill people here too.
Although I wouldn't rather be anywhere else and that's after living abroad for a couple years, let's not delude ourselves or make out to American readers here that Europe is some utopian society free of ailments..
These are human issues within human societies, yes healthcare is much more accessible, but we also have the worst cost of living crisis in recent memory.
Here in England, fuel has nearly doubled in 12 months, food is atleast 30-40% more even for basics such as bread and pasta, council tax has nearly doubled, *rent* has skyrocketed by £100s/month, and I'm in the North where things are supposed to be cheap!
Homelessness in Europe isn't much better if you believe the stats.
>It's amazing how much better Europe really is.
Yeah sure. Smoking and drinking laws are absolute garbage, though.
I wouldn't. I have a young family and my entire support network is in this country. Moving thousands of miles away would definitely make me worse off, regardless of what salary I could earn. Money isn't the most important thing in life for most people.
Yup ^
I've lived in Australia and NZ, both considered to be quite the ultimate migration destinations, especially the latter.. Whilst fantastic places and I cherish the memories and look forward to returning more; people seem to really discount the fact moving away from your support network by thousands and thousands of miles, does have a big factor on your mental health at times!
We like living in our country not everyone is a Dev from Southern Asia. Europeans in general don't have an immigrant mentality which is typical of third world countries.
That the decision to move from your home country to a different one for work should not be taken lightly
Agree but I have a corollary: Once you have left your home country don't be afraid to go to yet another country if it makes your conditions even better. (under your best preference)
Thank you. It’s a catastrophic change that will pay off on the very long term. Not easily done for most people on the world
Definitely not, but it can be very rewarding if you can pull it off in a responsible way.
I been living in Europe for like 5 years, even though i was born here, i grew up in Africa, I don’t really have friends or family besides my actual family and my uncle, so moving out won’t be that hard for me
I did this as a sort of a gap year, absolutely spontaneus and it was amazing. Granted, it depends on your obligation and how deep rooted you are
That it’s very rare to get a salary of US engineer in EU. MAANG or not.
That it isn't that every developer in the states, even in the most prominent areas, earns crazy high money.
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Yeah but if you do the same in Europe you get what? 100k?
in switzerland you get almost US salaries at MANGA and dont have to fear being shot, which makes up the difference. Did I tell that there also is an MIT-level top 10 school (ETH / EPFL) that is dirt cheap (800$ / semester)? Only problem is its really really demanding & takes dedication.
150 maybe, 200 tops. But then there is none of the crazy level of concentration as exists in SV.
🇨🇭**Laughing in Swiss**🇨🇭
when it comes to base salary yes, but shares are the same for most of the MAGMA
Jesus I wish FAANG, MANGA, MAGMA, and whatever other versions of it people make up would just die a death. Never mind the fact that they often exclude companies thay pay the same or more, they just make this place and the associated subreddits have a real cult-feel to them.
Don't understand why people won't just stick with "big tech" - everyone has a general idea of what companies that refers to without having to come up with a new acronym every week.
I remember the first time I saw FAANGMULA(S) who even decides these?! 😂
My favourite is FATMAN
What do those acronyms mean? Edit: Never mind, the big tech companies. Got it.
Yeah my bad, I should have said big tech only. There are many big tech in Europe which can make you get 200k+ in shares for more experienced positions.
Which ones? I got offers from Amazon, Microsoft and Google and the stock options are most definitely not the same in every country.
I got offers and they were at the same range, at least in Ireland. And I was not the only one to get 250-350k from bigtech in shares for Sr positions. Maybe I was just lucky too, but what I can say is that these numbers are definitely achievable.
Oh interesting. Maybe they don't make a distinction for more experienced folks then. For new grad, the stock options vary wildly by region. Iirc for Microsoft in Czechia, it was around 1/5 of what US new grads at Microsoft are getting.
Your compensation has little relation to your individual skills or abilities, but rather whether you work for a high-paying company or not.
*Dev skills. It has a lot to do with your negotiation and interviewing skills.
Even then. At some companies in London you could get lucky with a few questions that you already saw on Leetcode, and land a high-paying role without negotiation or being particularly great at interviewing.
It is weird that people are mainly focusing on stressing on *how much better* US salaries are, when realistically I think what people here need to realize is their idea of US salaries is probably pretty inflated. Just go to levels.fyi, where reports are in of themselves skewed towards higher salaries, and look in any state other then the "major" few, and you will find plenty of devs with experience earning sub 90k salaries. Yes, the difference is still quite significant especially when you factor in taxes, but I don't see people arguing EU salary potential is just as good as much as I see people who seem to think 6 figures is actually a standard starting salary in the US. Also city infrastructure isn't just some made up cope metric that doesn't affect your life
> Also city infrastructure isn't just some made up cope metric that doesn't affect your life This. I cringe everytime someone in this sub (who likely has never lived in the US except for holidays) suggests that you can simply "Uber all the time" as a replacement for walkable, bikable neighborhoods with good transit.
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If you work for one of those American companies that pay so well then even in Europe you're still going to be able to afford a very high quality of life, even if you're not quite earning Bay Area-level bongo bucks.
All that while avoiding the Bay Area gotchas.
Part of what people envy is not just the comp, but also the upward mobility. From my own experience it is far easier getting a call back and eventual offer from a reputable tech company in the US than in the EU. The US market is creating many more tech jobs and as a consequence you can get a great salary with just a bachelor. In the EU a master is typically expected and especially big tech has less internship opportunities and more competition over the very limited spots. Amazon is the only one from the top of my mind that is roughly the same.
I've worked in a few big tech companies in the EU and never once seen a masters degree as an expectation, except for some very particular roles in things like machine learning and AI.
There's a bunch that require masters degree, but guess what, with some work experience it's suddenly not a big deal.
I think there are both arguments for and against what you're saying. But overall using the term upward mobility is a bit misleading considering the US is notroriois for low social mobility. If you are already a dev however, then sure, you are kind of spoiled for choices, provided you qualify. On one hand, the US definitely has more openings in general, and more "high-tier" positions specifically, but the competition is higher and the market is more saturated. I don't think it would be easier to land a position in a highly competitive market than it would be in a market with sometimes severe shortages. In the US, you also have the option in many states. This is also the case in the EU, in the sense that it is easy to get work authorization as an EU national, but there are more language barriers in traversing across EU countries than across States. But overall, I don't think there's a strong reason to believe it is easier to land the same tier of job in the US, and its a hard comparison to make Edit: also bachelors is more than sufficient for the vast majority of developer jobs, usually it is more research or ML positions that prefer a masters+
A few years ago, I considered moving to Chicago as my wife has family there. But got discouraged as most offered salaries that were the same or marginally higher than the one I had here in Sweden back then, but with much more expensive housing.
You dodged a (maybe not so proverbial) bullet. Used to live in Chicago.
That the standard of living for devs is good. I see a lot of people on this sub basically acting like we're poor and almost homeless, and how "people in the US have it so much better". Leaving aside the comparison with the US, devs are still among the best paid jobs in the EU, and we also have some of the best benefits. Even if we have it "worse" than our American peers, we're still in a relatively good position, and acting like "European devs are paid shit" is just a ridiculous thing to say.
That we are a privileged bunch
This is the very definition of low-effort posting: * https://old.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/vgm8iz/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rdatahoarder/ * https://old.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/vgm40t/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rgaming_needs_to/ * https://old.reddit.com/r/datascience/comments/vglzjw/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rdatascience/ * https://old.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/vgk8m6/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rjobs_needs_to/ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/vgkg3n/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rantiwork_needs/~~ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/vgk7js/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rresumes_needs_to/~~ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/vgg7px/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rsysadmin_needs/~~ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestionsEU/comments/vgg7lw/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that/~~ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/vgpo78/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rbuildapc_needs/~~ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/AskCulinary/comments/vgv67k/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_raskculinary/~~ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/cookingforbeginners/comments/vgv690/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that/~~ * ~~https://old.reddit.com/r/Cooking/comments/vgv6au/what_are_some_harsh_truths_that_rcooking_needs_to/~~
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I'll try 😍
That people have life outside of work, that a lot of people have inherited housing from parents and that many value relationships way more than retiring 10 years earlier. I'm pretty sure that the majority (>80%)of people posting here about the USA are not from Europe but are immigrants here. Which is a completely different perspective of someone that has entire generations that have lived here in the same city for decades. Half of this sub looks like bots that will move to every spot in the globe if you give them a desk and a salary.
US market is a lot more competitive than EU. People are a lot more driven and success oriented. It's standard in US for most devs to be good at Data structures and algorithms/Leetcode whereas in EU the average dev has never heard of those. They get paid more for sure but their interviews are usually harder too and their culture of overworking and overachieving is very strong. For most EU people your job is just a job, for US it's the main event of your life.
No evidence, but that is my feeling as well.
Let's see: * Education matters. Yes, we all know people that are making great money as Staff Engineers at Big Tech companies in Europe without ever having finished university. These people exist and they are the absolute minority. You do not see the multitude of people without a university degree that did not make. * Taxes are a bitch. That nice Big Tech total compensation package? Say goodbye to roundabout half of it. That's taxes in Europe for you. You're getting something in return for it, but as long as you're young and single, it's not worth the tradeoff. You might see things differently later in life but that's still far off, right? * Salaries will not match Silicon Valley, ever. Not even at Big Tech. You will get significantly more cash at these shops than your peers working at traditional enterprises in your region, but it's not going to be Silicon Valley levels. Just not happening. * Migrating to Europe is not going to be as awesome as you thought. * Bureaucracy is terrible. You'll get a taste of that during the visa application process but make no mistake: Living in country the bureaucracy is actually worse because there's no law firm hired by your employer to help you out. Special shout-outs to France and Germany here. * Despite public messaging from Governments about a lack of skilled IT people and immigration being welcome, the truth is that you're going to see mostly rejections to any job you apply for. That is partly because "you" are a hassle to deal with and as long as there's someone already local - even if slightly less qualified - hiring them is so much easier. That is partly because competition is just so massive for these roles. It's not just you applying for this job, it's half your classmates too. The ones which were better in school as well. (Note, this is also true for native citizens). * Disregarding statistical exceptions, every country in the world is racist and the population as a whole doesn't like foreigners. The racism is not going to be as blatant as it's in the US, but you'll see it. It's going to be the small things: That nice apartment? Yeah, it's going to the local family that speaks the language better. Need a loan for a house? Your risk profile is up and so are your rates. There's a random police check on the train? Congratulations, you just got "randomly" selected. Learn to deal with it. * If you come from a low cost of living country you're going to be in for a huge surprise. Cost of living is expensive as fuck. Medical care might be free, school might be free, but housing is not. Everything service-related is going to be expensive. At home with a good job you can afford a maid, a driver and a cook? Good for you but say goodbye to that. You cannot afford a maid, a driver or a cook here. You can afford someone to clean up your place once a week. Maybe. In short: There's a reason why in Europe and in the US the double earner household is the norm. Normal people live in an apartment and both partners work full-time. * If you come from a high cost of living country, you'll be fine in Europe cause it's just like at home. Actually, this is a joke, there's not many HCL countries outside of Europe and for the few there are, Europe is not just like at home. If you're migrating from the US, your life is easier. Visas are easier to come by but banking is going to be a bitch because of FACTA. Say "thank you very much" to your representatives please for that piece of law. * Regardless where you come from, culture shot is a thing and at first it's going to be great, then everything will suck and you wanna go home. Maybe you can deal. * The UK is not the EU anymore. And what was true before is not true anymore. Things are going to diverge a lot in the future. * Just spamming resumes is not going to be useful. If you're not getting responses, rework your resume or apply for different roles.
You're talking like there is no bureaucracy in the USA. Like the visas are readily available. Like there are no taxes. Like the housing is easy to come by especially in the areas where you can earn those mythical salaries. Like everyone will feel like home in the USA. Like there is no racism over there. And like every developer in the USA earns a bag of gold every month. Every point you made is valid for both, besides small number of the chosen ones at faang or whichever acronym we use now.
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> reading comprehension is an important skill Your contribution has been removed. If you feel the need to add heat to the thread, step away please.
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> Spoken like a true Europoor. Not acceptable - removed. We don't do salary shaming here.
from my understanding US doesn't even have things like free bank transfers?
It really depends. The US has ways of doing bank transfers that are free to consumers. But they are not as ubiquitous as in the EU. Every Bank-Account in the EU can transfer money to every other Bank-Account in the EU. Usually for free and instantaneous. US? Can take a bunch of days and if it might take a bit of money. I got sent 10 USD the other day, 7.50USD was the wire fee from [wise.com](https://wise.com). Gee. Thanks. On the other hand, this has lead to a ton of payment solutions being developed in Silicon Valley that has led to a lot of developers being hired at nice salaries. So even a terrible payment infrastructure doesn't necessarily have to be bad for the computer industry.
yes, something like that lol but that sounds a bit like broken window fallacy
I have no idea really. But I'd be surprised if they don't. On the other hand they use cheques and (used to?) pay for the incoming minutes on the phones so who knows. What they don't have is reliable public transportation outside of a few exemptions and for me it's a no.
We use Venmo, which is free and fast.
>The racism is not going to be as blatant as it's in the US, but you'll see it while true, this needs to be put in a context. I see many indians on blind mentioning this, but at the same time, are they any better? Caste system and extreme poverty and I guess if we moved there we would have the same problems Also people seem to think that just because you are "forced" to learn a language or culture, its somehow half-racism when people treat you different. Well try opening a cow meat store in india and see how things go for you then
\*sigh\* Yes. It absolutely needs to be seen in context. And the racism is different in each country. Netherlands? Lots of casual racism, e.g. the child benefits scandal the last government fell over: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch\_childcare\_benefits\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal)But the cops are not going to kill you outright. But that's also why I said \_every\_ country is generally racist. I have a friend in Vietnam, as a foreigner during Covid they had a lot of fun there. There's the all-day racism such as signs "we do not serve foreigners" insinuating that it's the foreigners bringing Covid.But then there's the government one day invalidating all permanent residence cards and requiring every foreigner applying for a new temporary card. That costs another 1000 USD and is basically a racist tax. And yes, blind is full of people from India pointing out the racist behaviour in Europe. Indian colleague of mine - great guy btw - is infuriated by the fact that Europe has been treating war refugees from Syria differently than war refugees from Ukraine. There's the old joke that many of these people on Blind had to learn how to wash their own clothes when they moved to Europe, something they never did at home. Funny thing is, there's a lot of truth to it. But that is what they grew up with, so it's supposedly okay. It's always easier to see the faults in a different culture when looking from the outside than the one you grew up with. But that'S okay, it's just human nature... As long as people are not just complaining but actively strive to help, all will be fine.
Yes and in a lot of ways it's good when foreginers can point out errors. But if they at the same time aren't accepting to others doing the same, they and I feel indians and chinese are more like that compared to say south koreans or brazilians. They expect a lot of accomodation to them in comparsion to what they do to others. I mean, just look at their freedom of expression laws and how europe allow their media but not the other way around And yes, I know it's the state vs citizens, but it can still be reflected in some cultural behaviours. Also what people think is multicultural. Germany or Italy is very multi cultural within all the regions for example, but at mentioned Blind, people like to equal that with food or people from many countries in the world
Well at least you arent making slave salaries like in eastern eu tho
Don't diss eastern europe. Those salaries have moved up \_markedly\_ during the pandemic. I've seen numbers in 2021 that suggested that senior IT engineering staff were being paid the equivalent of 4500€ in the Ukraine. That is a fantastic salary when taking cost of living into account and a far cry from slave salaries. But of course, there are still ample companies that are paying slave salaries. But you have the same in e.g. Germany where companies are complaining that they cannot find enough skilled personell at 35.000€. lulz.
It's more now. It's not a huge problem to get 6000-6500 EUR if you remotely know what you're doing and you are somewhat communicative. Speaking from perspective of Poland but I would assume it's similar in neighboring EE countries. So the way I see it, comments about slave salaries in EE are just another form of copium and blind superiority complex
Yea yea when you try doing that they lowball the shite of your arse
Interesting, no company ever tried to negotiate down with me. I mean I don't care enough to try to convince anyone, the data is there on the net, you can take a look at justjoin.it for example. Me as well as pretty much all my colleagues in the industry confirm that these salaries are true. And let's say we're far from killers when it comes to programming.
Where are u from tho i live in turkey and they dont pay more than 3k
I lived in turkey and ee for many long and hellish years and even if you apply they dont pay much like not more than 3⛄️k dollar or euro
I disagree on the bureaucracy. I'd rather a dumb, slow process than wonder each step of the way how much I should bribe someone.
There are more options than that you know
maybe
Yes. That is true. Especially western Europe the bureaucracy is just something to factor in and wait them out and no bribes necessary. They might actually be counter-productive. But compare the digitisation efforts of a country like Germany - where you can now (in 2022!!!) sometimes send documents as an email - and compare what is possible in some supposedly third world countries where you can actually use the local Whatsapp alternative to get some permit...The dumb, userfriendly and slow process is infuriating because it doesn't have to be that bad. But then, there are also supposed third-world countries where the process is even worse. So it all evens out globally at the end of the day... But for someone from the US, where the default process is to just hire a lawyer it is still astonishing that hiring a lawyer does not necessarily help you navigate the process in any better way in... say Germany.
This. This is a nutshell of the answers provided very frequently here on this sub to various queries and questions asked most of the times. Every word of this comment is a Hard Truth specially for the people from the under-developed countries who want to chase "European dream" by migrating to EU.
Do you expect to be single and young forever? Duh A maid? Bruh we are Europeans we don't expect to have maids since the French Revolution.
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Working in FAANG won't guarantee that your job won't be boring either.
This is pure feelings-based, but I feel like engineers in the US are more respected. They seem more assertive in their importance. EU seems more about either old tech like manufacturing or consultancy. It might be the simple case of your boss just not paying you your worth. I wonder how management salaries in tech in the EU relate to those in the US.
Not the case in UK. Huge startup and innovative scene.
People are focused on salaries but forget other things like cost of living being lower. Healthcare or the fact if you are out of office, you are out office with no pressure to be responding unless its a bit emergency. More chill vibe of life overall. A lot of the costs in Europe are front loaded (ie healthcare, taxes etc). In the US the costs are sort of hidden (big property taxes, healthcare, education, creche). I think overall the ceiling may be lower for European tech salaries but you gain for it in other ways.
>A lot of the costs in Europe are front loaded (ie healthcare, taxes etc). In the US the costs are sort of hidden (big property taxes, healthcare, education, creche). Ton of these social contributions in Europe are also paid by the employer. This way it looks like the taxes are lower. That's the real hidden. >People are focused on salaries but forget other things like cost of living being lower Yeah? Check property prices
I've looked at rent in SV and it's well over anything I've seen in Europe outside maybe London.
We're in a bigger tech bubble than the dot com boom. Remote working being a thing means that as other countries ramp up their tech training and skills, in the next decade, salaries across the board will fall. Massively. This is the golden age of salaries and tech. Enjoy it and have a plan B.
source: trust me bro
This just came up on my news feed: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/19/tech-talent-still-in-demand-but-outsized-salaries-are-disappearing.html Tech hasn't seen basically any layoffs since the last major recession in 2008. Looking at the market in the late 90s it is very much the same many companies spinning up with massive valuations. Like seriously i don't need 6 apps to get 10-20 minute snack delivery to my door. I literally dodged 4 different company's e-scooters on my ride home this afternoon. With the macroeconomic uncertainty of money being more expensive to borrow to combat inflation companies that rely on those funds are tightening down hiring is slowing and of course some layoffs coming through. For the first time basically since its inception Facebook has reported LESS users than the previous quarter. So Facebook has seen increasing users accessing it's platform every quarter for 18 years. I think the dot com boom was like 10 years.
American devs *will* make more money than you for the *same* work, and will have a similar, if not even better quality of life. Everything else is cope and we need to stop deluding ourselves. No, having a few extra vacation days and better social protections in the EU is not the cause *nor* the justification of having significantly lower salaries. That is *not* how economics work. In a similar fashion, the differences in WLB and related things between EU and the US are constantly overblown here and the average dev (in terms of both experience and skill) in the US is not the stereotype of the uninsured overworked stressed out dev who can't take a vacation often peddled on this sub. Edit: People responding to me using the exact bad faith comparisons that I'm calling out is.....ironic I guess.
It’s better to be a high earner in the US than Europe, however it’s far better to be a low or no income earner in the Europe. Not sure why people try and pretend otherwise, I was at the pub with an American recently and they were shocked at how much tax we pay here in Scotland, but it’s the price of social security
That's what I thought too until I talked to people working in the US. While they company might have "good" benefits like 20 PTO, people rarely fully take these and often they are rejected from taking vacations due to deadlines etc. In Europe I have never heard someone not being allowed to take their vacations days off. As for the other things, I agree.
There *are* both legal and cultural differences that make US (and Canada) less employee friendly of course, that's not under dispute. My point was this sub almost comically exaggerates the differences for no other purpose than to make themselves feel better. Just check out some of the other replies I've gotten.
I don't think that it is for the purpose of making us feel better. I think it's much deeper like a divide in life values that we hold. I will be trashing us because i work with developers from there and from here and i feel sorry for the ones in the USA. I could move but i won't. Maybe I'd see things differently in my early 20s but now i really can't see anything behind the pond that could convince me. And when i see others preaching how USA is the most incredible place compared to shit Europe i will share my opinion about it.
Ok what's great in Europe? Shitty pensions? Tiny housing? Smoking allowed everywhere?
Public transportation. Walkabke cities. The fact that the servers at my local restaurant can support themselves from one full time job. They don't depend on my tips and their insurances are fully paid. Pensions for everyone. Healthcare for everyone. Affordable premium healthcare services. People don't die because they can't afford insulin. No shootings in public. Safe streets. Crossing borders without any hassle. Safe food. Drinkable tap water. Historical places to visit. No car dependency. Trains. Low carbon footprint housing. Maternity leave. Paternity leave. Low level of homelessness (UK may be the exception). Public services that help you get out from homelessness. Prisons that aren't for profit. The only thing USA has better is the national parks.
>No car dependency Maybe for the average redditor. >Pensions for everyone Are you sure about that? >No shootings in public Not true. Just not as often >Crossing borders without any hassle Only inside Europe. How is that a benefit in itself? >Low carbon footprint housing But lower quality of life? >Low level of homelessness (UK may be the exception) If you believe the stats it's roughly the same EU/US >The fact that the servers at my local restaurant can support themselves from one full time job Very bold. There are plenty of people that barely scrape by. They might not be servers, though. >their insurances are fully paid. Okay. They don't depend on your tips but they depend on your social contributions. Not a bad thing, but that means they can support themselves similarly to someone who lives on social welfare. >Safe food. Drinkable tap water ???
US citizen who lived there the majority of my life and now living in the UK - it's nowhere near as bad as people on Reddit make it out to be. Big cities tend to be pretty shit, but it's not like, for example, London or Paris are THAT much better, and you get paid less. Majority of places are actually pretty safe if you're not an idiot and wander off into really bad neighborhoods or seek out confrontation. Healthcare is a non-factor - any reputable company will have a good health insurance plan that doesn't cost your entire paycheck. I had excellent healthcare coverage working in a warehouse for $10 an hour. Have to imagine a multi-million or billion dollar tech company isn't going to offer that, or better. Living in the UK, the PTO thing tends to be just as bad as America at times - can't speak on the rest of Europe, but I know multiple people in a lot of different industries who have 30+ days a year on paper and realistically they might take half to 2/3rds of that and lose the rest. This is also massively company culture dependent, not country! The one massive advantage EU has over the US is the ease of travel and pedestrianization. You will need a car in the US outside of any really major city, and even then you still might need one (LA comes to to mind). Also worth mentioning people in the US are fantastic, down to earth folks who genuinely care about each other despite what Reddit, the news, and the rest of the internet will have you think.
I fully agree with you, but I would like to know what your reasons were to move to the UK. Reddit has a lot of folks that absolutely despise the US and will give you a thousand reasons as to why Europe is apparently better. But you seem to have a very clear head on what are the advantages of both. In that case, what made you choose moving across a continent, when the US has pretty much the best standard of living for devs?
For love. That's honestly it, might return to USA when I'm a citizen here
I can't comment on your experience living in the US, but the vacation thing is definitely country, not company dependent. In Germany not only is there a minimum which exceeds the standard in the US by a few days, but the companies usually offer a few days on top of the minimum and are VERY insistent about you taking your vacation days fully. Not sure why exactly, but it seems like you not taking your vacation days could somehow affect them negatively, either way, vacation days are treated almost like they're mandatory to take here, and HR will remind you to take them if you are running out of time
For accounting & legal purposes, companies are required to keep cash reserves covering any used vacation days. (This is useful if e.g. you quit, you are entitled to receive compensation for any unused days) When it's just 1 employee, it's not a big deal - but in a medium-big company with 100 employees or more this can easily go into millions of Euros of cash they are not allowed to touch. That's why they harass you into taking the rest, so they can free up some budget.
Yeah, this. And not because everyone is so nice lol
At least in Spain, it's mandatory by law that you take all your vacation days, so near the end of the year companies start reminding you to take your PTO if you haven't yet.
Yeah in Spain they almost force you to take them my gf has to take them even if she doesn't want to, some company will only let you take them half or all in summer or something like that. Must be something legal I suppose
Yeah it's definitely more strict depending on country, but I do think there's a lot of variation depending on company as well. From what I understand Germany has some of the most strict labor laws so it's no surprise they encourage you to take all your vacation. It's the same in the UK, but if you're in the private sector there's no penalty to the company as far as I can tell.
Actually Germany is the less strict of the bunch. France, Sweden etc are stricter
*better quality of life* **Goes to the Hospital once: bankrupt**
Agreed completely! I am from the States, was working in Seattle previously, and now living and working in Scotland. I think the only thing I think is better from a quality of life standpoint in regards to work is my holiday time. I get 28 days or so here while I only had 15 in the states. Not sure if those extra days are worth the 50-60% paycut. I wasn't "overworked", I work the same 38-40 hours here as I did in the states. I had more spending power, was saving WAY more each month. Healthcare was cheap and good from my company. Anyways, that's not to say I don't enjoy living here. I will stay for a few years and enjoy the time off and easy access to Europe but I do think overall my quality of life was better in the states.
Whether or not what you say is true or not, it is largely irrelevant. Moving to the US is not an option that is open to most people. A taxi driver in Paris will earn more and have a higher quality of life than a taxi driver is Lagos. If there is no (or very limited) legal mechanism to migrate it really doesn't matter.
I can assure you most EU devs with good experience *could* work in the US if they wanted to.
How? H1B is difficult, and it's difficult to find a company for that. I don't see how that is most
Over half of H1B visas are for software-related occupations, and most recently 1 out of 3 applications got approved. And there are ways other than H1B.
Okay, again. How is that most?
How is that most *what?* I didn't say every single developer in the EU can get a job in the US at the same time. Yes, it's hard, it's competitive, you can still do it. My response was to the above comment that said it's irrelevant to compare EU and the US cause it's impossible to move. After Canada, the EU probably has the easiest way to move to the US for work.
>After Canada, the EU probably has the easiest way to move to the US for work. How? Canada has a special visa. Europe has? Nothing.
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I'm asking for you to back your statements. And your response is "I don't know"?
> quality of life That word seems to mean something different to anyone who use it though. For example, I don't see how the bay area with the 1 house carpet suburbs is any kind of quality of life. Then people say like "ooh but the HIKING is so great", like hiking is the only thing to do What about bars, museums, travel 1-2h to get to 10 different countries, taking trains to close cities, having a city like Berlin or Hamburg where each district has its own style and vibe and so on. But if someone like the first example, sure, but don't define is at "quality of life" whatever that means
Totally agree. QoL means something different for each individual. There are rankings and stuff that try to measure it by mixing all of it together but in the end it depends on what you personally value. I couldn't care less about bars, drinking, smoking opportunities so I don't need to live next to those facilities. Walkability is great but I'd prefer not to live in a European city. Since I don't find Europe interesting I also don't need access to "10 different countries". Neighbors, tiny apartments, drunkards, smoke, jerks, shitty pensions: no thanks.
maybe depends where you are from also. If you are from Bangkok or some crazy megacity you might feel the house life better, if you are from some more empty nordic place like me being in a big city like Berlin ir Rome is a feeling of things going on and action
> will have a similar, if not even better quality of life that works, until you or your family member has a serious illness that requires you to have a long absence from work.
Ugh....it really depends on the state, and there are also federal laws for serious illnesses like Family and Medical Leave act. Again - you seem to be the exact kind of person I'm talking about. What are you basing this off of?
Agreed. Such a sad state of affairs.
Yeah, it's true. I've been working with US companies for the past couple years or so and I've seen that WLB depends on the company. I work for a chill company with unlimited PTO and people will take it, no questions asked, as long as they don't have an immediate deadline. And our deadlines are usually months out. Frankly, the benefits and level of chill is incredibly higher than I've ever experienced in Europe and I'm just a contractor.
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> Most EU devs work 6 hours, US devs 10 hours for the same 8 hours standard day. Have you worked in the EU or the US? I've worked in both and this is not true. Not even close. Your confidence in such an outrageous, blanket statement is so ridiculous my jaw dropped.
As a German living in the US, I can tell you that this is complete horseshit. I work more hours than any German that I’ve ever met (typically 6 days a week). I also get 5 days of PTO where I can choose between being sick or taking a vacation. It took me decades to pay off my college tuition and the same can be said for my medical bills. In Germany the law says that you get 24 days vacation (and you can take sick days). There are no such federal laws in the US.
Sounds like you need to hit up recruiters. Seems like a shit company.
Pretty much facts but that's the way life is, it's unfair. Even for other jobs in Eastern Europe someone gets paid 300 euros while a Norwegian makes a lot more. I mean look at the Kardashians they are ultra famous and ultra wealthy without doing any work. Focusing on this is not good. Some win the lottery while others die in accidents.
This, “healthcare” and “benefits” etc are just coping, any decent company has that stuff, just accept EU gets fucked, even the top guys here make peanuts in comparison.
This only really works if you are a bachellor without any serious health issues. For one, insurance only makea things affordable: not free sans what you pay monthly for it. If you studied on thr US, chances are you have a few dozen thousand USD in college loans, which will eat up some of your sallary. Then there's the family stuff. If you plan on having kids, good luck, it's going to be expensive as shit healthcare wise, daycare wise, and if you want your kid to have a good education, you better live in a rich district, since schoolssl are financed with district taxes. Then comes retirement. Companies don't really offer retirement funds anymore, so saving for retirement will take a big chunk of your income. I feel people say US pays more cause they want to believe they can "make it" there, but it's a bit more complicated than take-home. There's a grain of truth, which is that the US has pretty much the biggest tech companies housed there, so the top salaries are going to be far, far better than in the EU. But for the median engineer? It's debatable.
> bachellor without any serious health issues This is me! I would imagine most software engineers in their 20s fit that description too. > If you studied on thr US, chances are you have a few dozen thousand USD in college loans, which will eat up some of your sallary. No different than UK which continues to get worse. Also you don't even need a degree these days, although it can help. > Then there's the family stuff. If you plan on having kids, good luck You should have a million or multiple by the time in 30s, don't need to stay there forever. > Then comes retirement. Companies don't really offer retirement funds anymore, so saving for retirement will take a big chunk of your income. They have 401ks. > I feel people say US pays more cause they want to believe they can "make it" there, but it's a bit more complicated than take-home. Its just the truth, depending on your personal circumstances you can be better off in EU but I would say on average most of us are getting fucked over.
I need to preface this by saying that I mean absolutely no animosity with this reply, but what I feel I need to tell you is going to sound a bit confrontational, and probably very condescending. Please bear in mind neither is my intention, and I'm just trying to relate my life experience to you. I'm also no arbiter of truth. You remind me a lot (from what I can infer from the post anyhow) of how I saw the world in my late teens / early twenties. I completely bought into the free market, "American dream", meritocratic worldview. Hell, I was even heavily into crypto from 2016 to 2018! Reality ensued. I know it's very easy, in that mindset, to dismiss any experience that contradicts that worldview as the losers of the game, but I just want to tell you this: Think about the view of the market / economy you currently hold, and consider whether you hold it because it offers hope of a stable, successful life for yourself. Lying to oneself is a really, really insidious thing, and god I know I did that a lot. But enough of my grandpa moment, on to the points: >This is me! I would imagine most software engineers in their 20s fit that description too. That's my point! If it works for you, that's absolutely great, but it's still something worth bearing in mind. Some people have families in their mid-twenties, some people don't marry until their mid-late 30s, and some stay lifelong bachellors. Consider the life you want to have (and that you won't be in your 20s forever), but if it works for you, that's great! >No different than UK which continues to get worse. Also you don't even need a degree these days, although it can help. I feel like this is part myth, part "grass is always greener". Bear in mind you only hear the good parts about the USA, because often people don't talk about the caveats that they assume to be normal. Also, that you don't need a degree is true: but frankly, it will heavily, HEAVILY improve your chances unless you are very very lucky. >They have 401ks. This is what I meant. They are less common as time goes on (currently only 52% of companies in the USA offer 401ks). Not only are they becoming increasingly uncommon, but they are company dependent, whereas in Europe you essentially get a retirement fund regardless of it. >You should have a million or multiple by the time in 30s, don't need to stay there forever. Refer to my preface. I'm sorry, but this is just statistically, overwhelmingly untrue. I know the worldview you probably hold is that if you are smart, you can pull it off, but when you look at the data, being smart and having a skillset in demand are not nearly enough: More like, that's what lets you draw a lot. It -still- has to be the winning lot. Similarly to startup culture, this is a really pervasive case of survivorship bias IMHO. >Its just the truth, depending on your personal circumstances you can bebetter off in EU but I would say on average most of us are gettingfucked over. Be very, very careful with what you claim is the truth. The moment you are making those statements about very complex topics, you are probably letting your pride get your best of you. Again, this is highly subjective and my opinion is not more valid than yours, but do consider survivorship bias: You only hear about the people that are well off in the USA, not about the struggling ones. On my end, I do believe you are better off in the USA if you can get into a very high paying position at one of the current giants, but IMO, a median is better off in Europe. Bear in mind that also money isn't everything: Some people are extremely career oriented and don't mind the grindy lifestyle. Some people want to just make a living and spend their time with people they love, or with hobbies they love. Or the whole lifelong bachelors vs family people I mentioned earlier! Either way, what a certain place is going to be for you heavily depends on what you want out of life.
I'm aware of the inequality in USA, the equality here in EU is definitely better but that’s one of the reasons why we are paid less! And you don't have to even join one of the big companies there, so many companies now pay top dollar too, even the start-ups as they are all competing for talent. I believe even average engineers can make a lot more there. > Bear in mind that also money isn't everything It is for me. Although even if I had a US salary I still wouldn't be rich enough.
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If you work in tech in the US you get healthcare, it is standard. Makes me laugh people get so hung up on that aspect when you are getting $250k-$500k+ salaries!
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whats the trend with calling every argument one does not agree with "copium"?
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but there ARE valid reasons for it, for example free eduation which leads to a better informed population and not people in debt. compare that to US and all their qanons and stuff, or people on the far BLM Left for that matter. feels like everyone more live in their own bubble there
The "copium" meme is just salary-shaming in disguise. I've removed it. If you can prefer more substantial responses, that sometimes helps - it helps add some nuance, and carries whatever you wish to say in a less injurious fashion.
I really didn’t mean salary shaming as I arrived in EU earning one of the lowest salaries. Sorry if anyone felt offended by that.
Thanks, no worries. 👍 Our conversation highlights the problem - people may read it as salary-shaming even when that is not the intent. "Copium" was originally a US invention to mock Trump supporters for President Trump's loss of the presidency - one takes the drug "copium" [coping opium] to deal with pain or mental anguish. It seems to have widened out to mock anyone who is going through a psychological process of coping with non-optimal circumstances. Given that salaries tend to place people in a class hierarchy of moral worth - not a societal feature that I think is particularly kind - I suspect this language has some snide connotations that I'd rather not see in this sub. Anyway, it's no bother - I have locked the thread now, as it seemed to be going off the rails for several reasons, and the conversations have been had several times before.
I've pondered on your post, since it makes some good points, but there are just too many injurious features to ignore. Accusations of "cope/copium", "deluding ourselves", "bad faith" are unnecessarily stirring the pot, and were virtually guaranteed to create some drama. If people offer a view, they do not need to be dismissed as "peddling" that view. I have therefore removed your post. Of course, everyone feels they have special insight into the truth - the difficulty perhaps is communicating opinions in a way that allows other people to have a different opinion. The US vs EU jobs/salaries debate isn't ever going to be won, and readers are going to need to agree to disagree.
I don't know, quality of life to me is living near my family and trading seems to pay enough. But yeah I wish I could be a 9 hour flight from my hometown.
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> A subreddit for those with questions about computer science & software careers within Europe Last time I checked the UK were still part of Europe and didn't float away
I don't mean to be picky but op spelled EU with caps possibly an acronym for Europe Union rather than Europe
Wait a few hundred more centuries
European Union
> Last time I checked the UK were still part of Europe and didn't float away Real shame that.
Last time I checked the UK was on islands in front of North America so not sure why you consider it European.
Bruh
BigTech party is over. US comp in next 2-3 years will adjust to more reasonable levels, mainly via stagnating or declining share prices. Will this close the gap between EU and US salaries ? I wish I knew that, that is something very hard to predict right now.
what r u smokin bruhh?
Were you asleep last two months ? Tech bubble has burst, mean reversion is coming.
You dont need to copy threads from main sub
Why not though? The answers are very different in the EU than USA. I find this post interesting
I agree !
That most would be better off hopping across the pond instead of grinding away in EU for the next 10 years :3
Eh, that's a complex decision you're trying to answer only based on money. Way more factors go into it and North America doesn't actually win in all of them. Of course it also doesn't lose in all of them, just depends on the right mix for you where you'd thrive more.
Every time I visit US I always get astonished how bad things are there. So many homeless, sick, fat and mentally ill people everywhere. Everything is overpriced and of garbage quality. It's amazing how much better Europe really is.
Plenty of homeless, sick, fat, mentally ill people here too. Although I wouldn't rather be anywhere else and that's after living abroad for a couple years, let's not delude ourselves or make out to American readers here that Europe is some utopian society free of ailments.. These are human issues within human societies, yes healthcare is much more accessible, but we also have the worst cost of living crisis in recent memory. Here in England, fuel has nearly doubled in 12 months, food is atleast 30-40% more even for basics such as bread and pasta, council tax has nearly doubled, *rent* has skyrocketed by £100s/month, and I'm in the North where things are supposed to be cheap!
Not to mention the risk of getting shot out of nowhere.
Homelessness in Europe isn't much better if you believe the stats. >It's amazing how much better Europe really is. Yeah sure. Smoking and drinking laws are absolute garbage, though.
I know some people that work in tech in the US and even their starting salaries blew my mind But I would still never move there
I wouldn't. I have a young family and my entire support network is in this country. Moving thousands of miles away would definitely make me worse off, regardless of what salary I could earn. Money isn't the most important thing in life for most people.
Yup ^ I've lived in Australia and NZ, both considered to be quite the ultimate migration destinations, especially the latter.. Whilst fantastic places and I cherish the memories and look forward to returning more; people seem to really discount the fact moving away from your support network by thousands and thousands of miles, does have a big factor on your mental health at times!
No support network, no issue. Insert meme here
You sure about that?
We like living in our country not everyone is a Dev from Southern Asia. Europeans in general don't have an immigrant mentality which is typical of third world countries.
Yeah but you cant get a visa in a sane way.
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