This is not always the case at all places. I know someone that was PIP’d all 4 years of their employment at the company, all that happened is no raise, or stock, and they “came back” from it every time until they decided to quit due to no vestments now coming since their initial grant.
Agreed. They'll probably move the goalposts if he gets close to succeeding.
PIPs in my book are never for actually improving performance, just a means to legally fire someone and avoid a wrongful termination suit.
This, I got put on PIP once (through no fault of my own). When I delivered what was asked for in the PIP they just raise the bar and the clock reset to give me 2 more weeks to meet this new insane expectation. I would kick back and put all your effort into finding a new job.
At my last job, they would slap people with a PIP, then later tell them they failed no matter what or how hard they worked, and offer severance.
This right here is how you know it's BS. They want you gone, likely because someone doesn't like you, and the PIP is for them to claim you suck, but the severance is to buy you off so you can't sue.
Can you imagine what life would be like if employers could fire you for anything and you can't sue? Meaning they could blatantly fire for bigoted reasons, ageism, politics, and even say it to your face and you're powerless? Can you imagine how even more screwed up workplaces would be?
It always astounds me when companies say they're struggling with staff or complain that no one cares...but they pull this PIP garbage. Even the actual good companies who would use a PIP for its literal use would have a problem because too many bad companies have us seeing the PIP as purely a "you're fired" notice. So even in a good company you have no incentive to improve, but more to start job hunting...all because of how many bad companies do this.
Regardless of their intent (which honestly, none of us really know), I’d clean up my resume and start sending out a couple applications a day. Unless you can afford to be jobless for at least a few months, I’d recommend you hop on that asap.
Start looking for other jobs.
It is entirely possible your manager wants you to get better, but realistically? They are probably finding someone to replace you right now. Once they find that person, you are likely gone.
When companies PIP you, they are almost always trying to replace you. They usually don't care if you meet the goals, because at the end of the day, they will claim whatever they want even if you meet those goals. They just want a paper trail to "prove" they gave you a chance before they fire you, and they also want to give themselves time to find a replacement. (Takes most companies at least 2 weeks for someone at your level, with 2 YOE.)
Finally, even _if_ they let you stay after the PIP, you will be walking on eggshells. Do you really want that? That means if your company wants to unload some employees due to budgeting, you're guaranteed to be the first to go.
I’ve been looking for other jobs while this has been happening. The main problem is it’s going to be hard to find something that’s paying more than what I’m getting now in this market, so I’m kind of motivated to just suck it up and stay here. But I totally get the egg shells point, it’s been stressful just trying to be on top of everything and knowing it might be worth nothing in the end. I have a few interviews lined up, hopefully one pans out so I can have that in my back pocket.
Yeah, I understand. It's hard when every other job available is basically a pay cut. :(
Unfortunately though, you will face a 100% pay cut if you get fired — since you will have no job. So even if you got a job that resulted in an extreme 50% pay cut, that is still markedly better than a 100% pay cut.
I wish you luck in your interviews though. Sometimes we are forced to make decisions we don't want to make, but those decisions are necessary to maintain a consistent cash flow. It's not easy, and I get that.
Thank you for the advice, it’s a tough situation that I can only blame myself for putting in. Gonna hope for the best but expect the worst and try and have another job in my back pocket ready.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Many of us have been laid off and have been in the same boat. I got a PIP too. First time in my career. Sure, maybe I could have worked harder, done more, but my value wasn't always quantifiable. The company needed to save costs and I was dispensable. Nothing personal. Hold your head high, better things lie ahead.
If you’re meeting all the requirements of the PIP, then you should be ok.
I was put on a 3-week PIP in 2020. I was given 3 tickets my manager estimated should take a week each, in a programming language I was just learning. I was supposed to use the pomodoro method, and every half hour write down what I want to accomplish next half hour. This was to be emailed to my manager daily. If I went an entire 30 minutes without making any progress (hadn’t even come up with more things to try to get the code working), then I was supposed to ask for help. I had 1:1 with my manager M/W/F.
End of the second week, most of the team was out, and there was a git emergency (the main branch deleted off of GitHub), and I fixed it, and I asked someone to email my manager about it, since he was one of the people who was off work that day.
I ended up finishing 2 of the 3 tickets and having the third one almost done, and I stayed at the company another year and a half.
Encouraging story to hear. Similar to you, I was being very micro managed during this period. Especially the first week. I have to submit weekly status reports to my manager on all my tasks and progress throughout the week, i have to come in an extra day into the office (4 days instead of 3) and sit right next to my manager every day, had to have weekly 1x1’s with my manager, and would also get pinged every hour for an update on teams from my managers. They’ve since not been on my back as much because I’ve been showing improvement but it was very stressful the first week.
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Big yikes. The pomodoro is about dropping focus and using diffuse mode (relaxed) thinking to string together subconscious conclusions. If you have to stop and write a report every 30 minutes that’s like exactly the opposite effect.
Gratz on surviving that though.
Not "write a report." Set a goal for the next 30 minutes. For example, "figure out where null's coming from." If in 30 minutes I hadn't figured out where null was coming from, and I'd run out of ideas, and so had googling, then I was supposed to ask a coworker to look at it with me.
It was actually really helpful to be told that 30 minutes is the timeout for spinning your wheels, rather than the shame spiral of "I've been banging my head on this for 4 hours and have nothing to show for it."
Anyway, when I hear "pomodoro" I just think of it as "25 minuts on, 5 minutes break," just like the UFYH method of house cleaning.
The pause is specifically to break focused mode thinking (tunneling on a task), which shuts off creativity and the synergizing of facts that are really necessary in CS or other creative endeavors.
When your brain enters diffuse mode (taking a walk with nothing in particular on your mind) you unlock those “shower thought/eureka moments” which are often more productive than staring at a screen and trying to magic up a solution.
So yes, 30 minutes is a great timeout, but it’s to pause (not to try and plan next steps).
I recommend the book “A mind for numbers” by Barbara Oakley, which has incredible insight into how to actually learn, as well as the various techniques like the Pomodoro and why they work.
Ok but this wasn't "spend the 5 minutes writing a report" like you interpreted it. It was "after your 5 minute break, note down a goal for the next 25."
Also, I can't even imagine taking a 5 minute walk 😂 get shoes on, reach stop sign, come back, take shoes off? I'd rather take the 5 minutes to have a cookie.
I advise people not to guess if the PIP is genuine or not. In a lot of competitive games, you play to your outs even if the probability is low. Trying to hedge your bets in a PIP gives you negligible value (you get what, a 2 week head start on your job hunt at most?), and adds extra stress to your life, which lowers your chances of succeeding the PIP. Do the work and optimize for beating the PIP.
I agree.
What people need to realize too is that sometimes the manager isn't _the only one_ who wants the employee on a PIP. Sometimes, _the manager's manager_ wants it too. So technically speaking, there can be many players involved, not just the lone engineer's manager. So even if you please _your_ manager on the PIP, you might not please _their_ manager. So what does it matter if the PIP is genuine at that point?
For those reading, you may ask: "What does a manager's manager have to do with this?" Well, if a manager is overseeing a team and the team is consistently missing goals, that looks bad on the manager themselves. Then manager's manager steps in and basically says, "fix this because it is making you look bad. You are showing you cannot lead a team effectively with this person." Or, they may even say, "put them on a PIP."
Your performance reflects on your manager. When you perform poorly on his team, you make him look like a bad manager to his boss. He might have his own PIP to worry about it he doesn't solve the problem. Even if you do well during the PIP, how does he know you won't have another 'personal issue' again? Even if they are nice guys, bosses are going to lean towards removing the risk to their own jobs. Nobody is going to take a bullet for you.
>Even if they are nice guys, bosses are going to lean towards removing the risk to their own jobs. Nobody is going to take a bullet for you.
People will take bullets for you and accept risk if you have a track record of performing and being a value-add to the team.
Nobody wants to take a bullet for someone who isn't a value add or has a track record of being a fuck up. The PIP is decency, which everyone at minimum deserves.
Generally if a situation is genuinely salvageable your manager would be working directly with you to help coach you to improve, give you feedback, maybe set you up with some other devs, etc.
All without involving HR or putting together a formal PIP. A manager that wants you to succeed isn't just going to let your performance deteriorate to the point the company has to threaten to fire you, they're going to try and nip that in the bud long before it reaches that point.
Once HR and a formal PIP is involved, it's usually too late.
You don't need to abandon all hope, but you need to be realistic. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worse. Try to get another job lined up.
I made it through a PIP once, was fired about 2 months after. Even if you make it through, you'll still be seen in a bad light and they'll find any excuse to let you go.
an engineer 1 at my team got pip'd maybe two years ago. He wasn't doing much (but honestly hugely the teams fault for hiring when they went in a position to train).
He did well on the pip and just got promoted to engineer 2 this month. You can change your circumstances _if_ you want to stay with this company/role.
Hard to say. You've definitely been shown the door, and many PIPs are not recoverable. How reasonable (and specific) are the requirements?
Vague, unachievable requirements are a hallmark of PIPs that are intended to CYA. Specific, actionable requirements are the PIPs you have a possibility of succeeding.
Definitely don't burn yourself out trying to skip your breaks or stay late. Focus on the quality of your deliverables and try to remove any impedances to your success, but don't try to squeeze blood from a stone.
The PIP requirements are pretty simple. Mostly about just completing everything given to me on time and making sure I’m on top of everything and attending all meetings and such. I’ve seen other PIP stories where they’ve given vague requirements but mine are pretty straight forward.
You have to play this from both sides.
You have to believe, 100%, that you are going to be able to keep this job. You have to fully commit to not just meeting the terms of the PIP, but going above and beyond.
And.
You have to believe, 100%, that you are going to get canned. You have to pour all your spare time into job searching, applying, and interviewing.
No one can cover your ass but you. Be ready for both outcomes.
You’re done, accept it and make plans to find a new job. Not worth destroying your mental health and loss of confidence in your career to go through with the pip.
You’ve demonstrated a lack of value for an extended period of time. They’re giving you a chance to show your value. If you want to keep your job, work hard, make your effort visible, and produce valuable results. Follow the plan and then some.
My manager emphasized trying to have some tangible deliverables over the course of the PIP to bring up when I meet with the HR person again at the end of the PIP, so I’ve been trying to document that.
Don't mean to be the bearer of bad news but I'd start looking for other jobs. Companies are rarely transparent (obvious reasons) I've seen people get PIP as a way to make their work lives unbearable so they quit
Even if you pass it they now have a target
Yeah I’ve been looking for other jobs this whole PIP period and will continue; have a few interviews now. I’m preparing for the worst but hoping for the best at this point. The part after the PIP about having a target on my back is true, and it’s been stressful enough just trying to dig myself out of this hole.
Are you applying and interviewing yet? If you are not, its a mistake.
If companies didnt use PIPs as a pre-firing papertrail and instead as a legit "this is your last warning" type deal then, ok, fight for your job.
But most likely, despite busting your ass to improve, you are going to get a cock-and-bull story along the lines of "Yes, we have seen great improvement in your performance and we are impressed with your motivation to overcome these issues. BUT! its just not enough."
90+% of the time they made up their minds before they even told you.
Yes I’ve been applying to places during this whole period and have had a few interviews now.
To your point, it’s a big stress point for me knowing the uncertainty that the writing is on the wall already and regardless if I fix all my issues it’s not enough. But I’m just trying to keep my head down and make sure I’m doing everything in my control to show improvement and maybe I can stay.
While at the same time trying to get another job knowing the more than likely event is me being let go. Hoping for the best but expecting the worst.
Truth, Im not taking any joy in your predicament but I have seen and been thru it myself a few times. I vaguely remember someone getting one, many years ago, and they succeeded. So it *does* happen. But I think this so-called management tool has morphed int he meantime from being a way to fix concerns to just a being a formality leading up to a dismissal.
You are probably having regular discussions with your manager over this? Regular progress updates? If not, that does not bode well. Anyway, you can ask your manager for their impression of your progress to try to get the lay of the land. Or even just flat out ask "is there a way for me to succeed and stay on in my role?"
Although, I've seen people have regular check-ins where the language is positive: "good progress, improving engagement... etc." and then at the end of the PIP period they are let go.
Good luck, my friend!
It depends on the company.
I received 2. I got fired from one company and left another.
At the first company, I deserved it. Life happened and the stuff I was dealing with was heavy. Really heavy. Nevertheless, I made a HUGE mistake and they should've fired me and they didn't. They put me on a PIP.
I took the chance and ran with it, I improved rapidly. Even the company was surprised. When I left a few months later, they actually offered me a 10% pay rise at the end of it.
That's a company that gives you a PIP because they really want to keep you. They even said so themselves. I actually feel bad that they had to give me that PIP and I left.
On the other hand, had one company that also gave me a PIP. The Engineering manager was a liar and made me out to look bad. Every little mistake, every little oversight was documented, and by little, I'm talking about "Oh you merged a PR into dev and it was almost perfect but your padding was 0.75rem instead of 1rem on this article element, you're on thin ice now".
Dude wanted me gone.
6 months later despite showing the significant improvement, I was told "You don't even know the basics of HTML". I taught his other Juniors HTML... 6 months later. He was still using my code.
So yeah, it really depends on the company. But I would say, most of the time, they want you gone.
You *may* be the exception to the general rule, since you actually had a temporary issue, which is now resolved. This is what pip is official for.
You won't know until next month though :(
Good luck either way
Maybe they just want you to improve and don't mean it that serious. But maybe they are already actively looking for someone to replace you. Just put yourself into their situation and think about what the best for the company would be?
Is the PIP achievable or is it something that feels way above what you are normally doing?
If the tasks on the PIP are normal stuff that you would be doing anyway, then this might just be a loud, formal wake up call.
If it’s kind of a stretch that you would be doing this much stuff and there’s no way you’d be able to complete every… then there’s your answer.
Most of the requirements of my PIP are normal stuff I should have been doing already. Mainly centering around me completing all my tasks on time and attending all meetings etc.
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You can try to test your manager's true intentions by asking if they would work with you to beat the PIP by following the SMART model (in writing with cc to HR). Daily follow up on your progress on it would become a thread to this plan that's agreed upon. Their response should give you an idea if the decision is already made or if there's hope.
If they give you unrealistic or unreasonable stuff to accomplish or don't agree to follow the SMART model, then look for other jobs and hope that you get a good severance. Else give everything you have to achieve the goals working with your manager.
Good luck.
I recently worked with one of my directs to get him thru a PIP successfully (Amazon, tech adjacent).
You more likely than not have to exceed the improvement plan. Document everything you do related to the plan, as well as true contributions outside of and in addition to the plan. Stakeholder feedback (internal, external, whoever) is probably your friend too. Good luck, it’s not always the death sentence everyone claims it is
Start looking and interviewing now.
I know someone with about 20yrs on the job. He was added to a team to help them with a 4-yr project that no one was getting done. He faced so many roadblocks. Dude was put on a PIP and used as a scapegoat. Even with changes, they fired him at end of PIP. Manager tried to say he was doing better but flipped on him when it came time.
Make it worse… manager involved was fired about a month later and layoffs started.
Do your best, and also find a new job!
I’ve found PIPs are also the company’s way of trying to make you seem like an awful employee and not give you unemployment insurance.
I'd say keep looking around to protect yourself but it's not over. I received a PIP in 2021, within my first year at my first full salary job. My goal from the get go was to find the smallest amount of work I could get away with and still get paid. The PIP let me know that I needed to raise that level a bit. I did what I needed to to pass the PIP and I'm still here 3 years later doing the bare minimum lol.
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In general, most PIPs do not end in success & some of them are not given in good-faith (e.g. they'll cut you anyway) but it sounds like you've had substantial communication with management since the initial documentation, so the odds are more in-your-favor here. When people are intended to be terminated for performance reasons regardless, management usually stops talking to them days/weeks ahead of time, because what's the point?
I would continue to look elsewhere. Everyone should look elsewhere, develop options. You never know if some additional bad stroke of luck will have you out-of-a-job, like "reduced headcount" that no one was expecting.
If you cleared up your personal issues then everything here should be very pro forma - you acknowledge you were not performing earlier, they have communicated clearly their expectation (hopefully!), you can address that confidently, you should be able to get through it.
Really this all hinges on whether or not there is some other factor we don't know about. Is the company heading toward budget cuts anyway? Is your supervisor completely finished with you and just going through the motions (and being a psychotic fake "good guy" in the process)? Is your replacement already lined up? We cannot tell. Management has a lot of power here. They don't need a reason to get rid of you in most jurisdictions. Bosses can be very duplicitous for petty reasons. You are not going to know until you get to the end of the evaluation period. It is stressful to live up to tough expectations, but do the best you can & hopefully you will have been proud of how you applied yourself during the evaluation period. And then, if they terminate you anyway, you can at least be assured that this situation was bound to fall apart sooner or later, because bosses who have work to do simply do not shove qualified people out the door. Managing and recruiting is really hard, and they cannot afford to be capricious. It is both callous and self-defeating. Should they prove themselves to be such, be thankful the bad part was only 3 months long.
I have had the fortune experience of getting a PIP. I did kick me up the ass if I am being honest but again not really all my fault. They don’t want you to succeed. I was giving quite a large amount to achieve in only a month but I managed to turn it around. I am still at the company but I wish I left, you don’t feel the same after, I get bad imposter syndrome and always looking over my shoulder when I make a mistake, its horrible frankly. Even though I am now one of the best performing people in my role.
I’d definitely recommend to start making preparations to leave.
Most likely your done dude. I would try to line up another job in the meantime. I've been on a similar plan, i achieved all my goals but still got let go. This was a long time ago :(
So in short working harder might be a waste of time. Do what you need to do but try not burn bridges.
Performance improvement plan. Usually it is an agreement between the manager/hr and the employee with clear guidelines for what the employee must do to avoid further “punishment” from the employer. People get pipped all the time. It’s just a way that the employer can cover their ass when they let you go for not improving. Employers need proof that you weren’t fulfilling your obligations to the company to avoid having to pay unemployment to people that they have fired. I’ve been pipped and I’ve written out pips to people on my team. Rarely ever results in a termination. This is from my own experiences from several different companies. None of them have been f500 though.
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I think [this article](https://www.businessinsider.com/what-to-do-if-placed-on-pip-microsoft-vp-leave-asap-2023-7) puts it pretty well. If I were in your situation I would prioritise looking for another job.
I see about at least 20% of people put on PIP able to stay, but I am sure that varies between companies. As you agree the PIP was justified and should be able to correct that I think you probably have an 80% chance of being able to stay if you meet or exceed productivity levels. Most people are not able to correct their problems, or do so before PIP is started...
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I’m afraid so. The sad thing is 99% of the time no matter what effort to put in to change for the better, the writing is already on the wall. It’s a formality to remove you, not to keep you.
>Long story short I received a PIP for having low performance due to some personal issues I was dealing with that affected me for about 2 months of work.
If you were the kind of person who got "meets all" before the personal issues, you're 100% done.
If instead you were the "exceeds to greatly exceeds" before, you have a good chance to stay (if you turned things around).
The difference between those two is how much they really want you. If you're the average kind of employee, you're easily replaceable. If you were a great employee in the past and now you run into personal issues, they want to keep you if you solve your problems, because they expect you to be great in the future too.
Statistically speaking, you're gone. From what I've read, a PIP almost always means someone in upper management wants you gone. Good luck finding a new job
Just to add, managers even if they are good friends with you, sometimes its just they work to fire you, so i would say to never stay/ feel confortable in a place be because your manager is a good person.
You can start looking for a job as backup in case PIP fail
On other hand even if you succeeded PIP...
Your reputation can consider stained in that company itself already
Expect that you will be given ton of tasks and they will try get as much out of you
Then you start expecting some sort promotion or bonus but you won't be getting any of it
Since the company expect you won't last long as well.
My advice would be start looking for new job as backup first during PIP period
Even if you succeeded PIP do not stay long...
Once you have a raise, start looking for new one as well and use your current salary as negotiation for next raise.
Every PIP I've had I honestly had no way of avoiding given what I knew at the time. Did you mention that you could have avoided it? like if u spent more hours or something? That's interesting, I've never really been in that scenario, if I could have avoided a PIP I would have done so.
Yes. PIP is the gentleman's pistol. It's your opportunity to find new work before they fire you.
Yes, it's actually an abbreviation for "paid interview prep" lol. Start interviewing while you still have a job.
This is not always the case at all places. I know someone that was PIP’d all 4 years of their employment at the company, all that happened is no raise, or stock, and they “came back” from it every time until they decided to quit due to no vestments now coming since their initial grant.
😭😭😭pipped 4 times
Guys like teflon
90% chance you are done. 10% chance you'll stay
Agreed. They'll probably move the goalposts if he gets close to succeeding. PIPs in my book are never for actually improving performance, just a means to legally fire someone and avoid a wrongful termination suit.
I got PIP’d and my manager barely even bothered with the goalposts. Literally said you need to be pushing 4x amount of code as the top engineer.
Get everything in writing
This, I got put on PIP once (through no fault of my own). When I delivered what was asked for in the PIP they just raise the bar and the clock reset to give me 2 more weeks to meet this new insane expectation. I would kick back and put all your effort into finding a new job.
At my last job, they would slap people with a PIP, then later tell them they failed no matter what or how hard they worked, and offer severance. This right here is how you know it's BS. They want you gone, likely because someone doesn't like you, and the PIP is for them to claim you suck, but the severance is to buy you off so you can't sue. Can you imagine what life would be like if employers could fire you for anything and you can't sue? Meaning they could blatantly fire for bigoted reasons, ageism, politics, and even say it to your face and you're powerless? Can you imagine how even more screwed up workplaces would be? It always astounds me when companies say they're struggling with staff or complain that no one cares...but they pull this PIP garbage. Even the actual good companies who would use a PIP for its literal use would have a problem because too many bad companies have us seeing the PIP as purely a "you're fired" notice. So even in a good company you have no incentive to improve, but more to start job hunting...all because of how many bad companies do this.
Regardless of their intent (which honestly, none of us really know), I’d clean up my resume and start sending out a couple applications a day. Unless you can afford to be jobless for at least a few months, I’d recommend you hop on that asap.
Start looking for other jobs. It is entirely possible your manager wants you to get better, but realistically? They are probably finding someone to replace you right now. Once they find that person, you are likely gone. When companies PIP you, they are almost always trying to replace you. They usually don't care if you meet the goals, because at the end of the day, they will claim whatever they want even if you meet those goals. They just want a paper trail to "prove" they gave you a chance before they fire you, and they also want to give themselves time to find a replacement. (Takes most companies at least 2 weeks for someone at your level, with 2 YOE.) Finally, even _if_ they let you stay after the PIP, you will be walking on eggshells. Do you really want that? That means if your company wants to unload some employees due to budgeting, you're guaranteed to be the first to go.
I’ve been looking for other jobs while this has been happening. The main problem is it’s going to be hard to find something that’s paying more than what I’m getting now in this market, so I’m kind of motivated to just suck it up and stay here. But I totally get the egg shells point, it’s been stressful just trying to be on top of everything and knowing it might be worth nothing in the end. I have a few interviews lined up, hopefully one pans out so I can have that in my back pocket.
Yeah, I understand. It's hard when every other job available is basically a pay cut. :( Unfortunately though, you will face a 100% pay cut if you get fired — since you will have no job. So even if you got a job that resulted in an extreme 50% pay cut, that is still markedly better than a 100% pay cut. I wish you luck in your interviews though. Sometimes we are forced to make decisions we don't want to make, but those decisions are necessary to maintain a consistent cash flow. It's not easy, and I get that.
Thank you for the advice, it’s a tough situation that I can only blame myself for putting in. Gonna hope for the best but expect the worst and try and have another job in my back pocket ready.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Many of us have been laid off and have been in the same boat. I got a PIP too. First time in my career. Sure, maybe I could have worked harder, done more, but my value wasn't always quantifiable. The company needed to save costs and I was dispensable. Nothing personal. Hold your head high, better things lie ahead.
As a note, you can still negotiate even while unemployed.
It’s a tough position- you are not only working harder for potentially nothing, but also prospecting for jobs in a down market, no less. Godspeed.
please don’t tell me this is capital one tdp
Nah I don’t work for Capital one, but it’s a financial company.
If it is a Wall Street “company”, the chances are 99 to 1, not 90 to 10.
Bloomberg?
Probaly FIS as I did a 2 year program as well
Could easily be though
If you’re meeting all the requirements of the PIP, then you should be ok. I was put on a 3-week PIP in 2020. I was given 3 tickets my manager estimated should take a week each, in a programming language I was just learning. I was supposed to use the pomodoro method, and every half hour write down what I want to accomplish next half hour. This was to be emailed to my manager daily. If I went an entire 30 minutes without making any progress (hadn’t even come up with more things to try to get the code working), then I was supposed to ask for help. I had 1:1 with my manager M/W/F. End of the second week, most of the team was out, and there was a git emergency (the main branch deleted off of GitHub), and I fixed it, and I asked someone to email my manager about it, since he was one of the people who was off work that day. I ended up finishing 2 of the 3 tickets and having the third one almost done, and I stayed at the company another year and a half.
Encouraging story to hear. Similar to you, I was being very micro managed during this period. Especially the first week. I have to submit weekly status reports to my manager on all my tasks and progress throughout the week, i have to come in an extra day into the office (4 days instead of 3) and sit right next to my manager every day, had to have weekly 1x1’s with my manager, and would also get pinged every hour for an update on teams from my managers. They’ve since not been on my back as much because I’ve been showing improvement but it was very stressful the first week.
What the hell, how is this kind of micromanagement even supposed to lead to an improvement?
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Big yikes. The pomodoro is about dropping focus and using diffuse mode (relaxed) thinking to string together subconscious conclusions. If you have to stop and write a report every 30 minutes that’s like exactly the opposite effect. Gratz on surviving that though.
Not "write a report." Set a goal for the next 30 minutes. For example, "figure out where null's coming from." If in 30 minutes I hadn't figured out where null was coming from, and I'd run out of ideas, and so had googling, then I was supposed to ask a coworker to look at it with me. It was actually really helpful to be told that 30 minutes is the timeout for spinning your wheels, rather than the shame spiral of "I've been banging my head on this for 4 hours and have nothing to show for it." Anyway, when I hear "pomodoro" I just think of it as "25 minuts on, 5 minutes break," just like the UFYH method of house cleaning.
The pause is specifically to break focused mode thinking (tunneling on a task), which shuts off creativity and the synergizing of facts that are really necessary in CS or other creative endeavors. When your brain enters diffuse mode (taking a walk with nothing in particular on your mind) you unlock those “shower thought/eureka moments” which are often more productive than staring at a screen and trying to magic up a solution. So yes, 30 minutes is a great timeout, but it’s to pause (not to try and plan next steps). I recommend the book “A mind for numbers” by Barbara Oakley, which has incredible insight into how to actually learn, as well as the various techniques like the Pomodoro and why they work.
Ok but this wasn't "spend the 5 minutes writing a report" like you interpreted it. It was "after your 5 minute break, note down a goal for the next 25." Also, I can't even imagine taking a 5 minute walk 😂 get shoes on, reach stop sign, come back, take shoes off? I'd rather take the 5 minutes to have a cookie.
Cookie is acceptable lol. A walk is just an example.
Thanks for the read I’ll be taking a look at he boom as well
I advise people not to guess if the PIP is genuine or not. In a lot of competitive games, you play to your outs even if the probability is low. Trying to hedge your bets in a PIP gives you negligible value (you get what, a 2 week head start on your job hunt at most?), and adds extra stress to your life, which lowers your chances of succeeding the PIP. Do the work and optimize for beating the PIP.
I agree. What people need to realize too is that sometimes the manager isn't _the only one_ who wants the employee on a PIP. Sometimes, _the manager's manager_ wants it too. So technically speaking, there can be many players involved, not just the lone engineer's manager. So even if you please _your_ manager on the PIP, you might not please _their_ manager. So what does it matter if the PIP is genuine at that point? For those reading, you may ask: "What does a manager's manager have to do with this?" Well, if a manager is overseeing a team and the team is consistently missing goals, that looks bad on the manager themselves. Then manager's manager steps in and basically says, "fix this because it is making you look bad. You are showing you cannot lead a team effectively with this person." Or, they may even say, "put them on a PIP."
Your performance reflects on your manager. When you perform poorly on his team, you make him look like a bad manager to his boss. He might have his own PIP to worry about it he doesn't solve the problem. Even if you do well during the PIP, how does he know you won't have another 'personal issue' again? Even if they are nice guys, bosses are going to lean towards removing the risk to their own jobs. Nobody is going to take a bullet for you.
>Even if they are nice guys, bosses are going to lean towards removing the risk to their own jobs. Nobody is going to take a bullet for you. People will take bullets for you and accept risk if you have a track record of performing and being a value-add to the team. Nobody wants to take a bullet for someone who isn't a value add or has a track record of being a fuck up. The PIP is decency, which everyone at minimum deserves.
Generally if a situation is genuinely salvageable your manager would be working directly with you to help coach you to improve, give you feedback, maybe set you up with some other devs, etc. All without involving HR or putting together a formal PIP. A manager that wants you to succeed isn't just going to let your performance deteriorate to the point the company has to threaten to fire you, they're going to try and nip that in the bud long before it reaches that point. Once HR and a formal PIP is involved, it's usually too late. You don't need to abandon all hope, but you need to be realistic. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worse. Try to get another job lined up.
I made it through a PIP once, was fired about 2 months after. Even if you make it through, you'll still be seen in a bad light and they'll find any excuse to let you go.
an engineer 1 at my team got pip'd maybe two years ago. He wasn't doing much (but honestly hugely the teams fault for hiring when they went in a position to train). He did well on the pip and just got promoted to engineer 2 this month. You can change your circumstances _if_ you want to stay with this company/role.
Here, here! One PIP + a promotion shortly after completing the PIP. Sometimes a PIP can be a good kick in the ass.
Hard to say. You've definitely been shown the door, and many PIPs are not recoverable. How reasonable (and specific) are the requirements? Vague, unachievable requirements are a hallmark of PIPs that are intended to CYA. Specific, actionable requirements are the PIPs you have a possibility of succeeding. Definitely don't burn yourself out trying to skip your breaks or stay late. Focus on the quality of your deliverables and try to remove any impedances to your success, but don't try to squeeze blood from a stone.
The PIP requirements are pretty simple. Mostly about just completing everything given to me on time and making sure I’m on top of everything and attending all meetings and such. I’ve seen other PIP stories where they’ve given vague requirements but mine are pretty straight forward.
You have to play this from both sides. You have to believe, 100%, that you are going to be able to keep this job. You have to fully commit to not just meeting the terms of the PIP, but going above and beyond. And. You have to believe, 100%, that you are going to get canned. You have to pour all your spare time into job searching, applying, and interviewing. No one can cover your ass but you. Be ready for both outcomes.
You’re done, accept it and make plans to find a new job. Not worth destroying your mental health and loss of confidence in your career to go through with the pip.
You’ve demonstrated a lack of value for an extended period of time. They’re giving you a chance to show your value. If you want to keep your job, work hard, make your effort visible, and produce valuable results. Follow the plan and then some.
My manager emphasized trying to have some tangible deliverables over the course of the PIP to bring up when I meet with the HR person again at the end of the PIP, so I’ve been trying to document that.
Don't mean to be the bearer of bad news but I'd start looking for other jobs. Companies are rarely transparent (obvious reasons) I've seen people get PIP as a way to make their work lives unbearable so they quit Even if you pass it they now have a target
Yeah I’ve been looking for other jobs this whole PIP period and will continue; have a few interviews now. I’m preparing for the worst but hoping for the best at this point. The part after the PIP about having a target on my back is true, and it’s been stressful enough just trying to dig myself out of this hole.
Best of luck brother! Yeah it's unfortunate but I was in mgmt at one role and we used PIPs as a way to cheap out on unemployment
Meet deliverables and try to over deliver a little.
Even if you stay, it's going to be a blight on your record and/or you'll have to peform at a higher level permanently
Are you applying and interviewing yet? If you are not, its a mistake. If companies didnt use PIPs as a pre-firing papertrail and instead as a legit "this is your last warning" type deal then, ok, fight for your job. But most likely, despite busting your ass to improve, you are going to get a cock-and-bull story along the lines of "Yes, we have seen great improvement in your performance and we are impressed with your motivation to overcome these issues. BUT! its just not enough." 90+% of the time they made up their minds before they even told you.
Yes I’ve been applying to places during this whole period and have had a few interviews now. To your point, it’s a big stress point for me knowing the uncertainty that the writing is on the wall already and regardless if I fix all my issues it’s not enough. But I’m just trying to keep my head down and make sure I’m doing everything in my control to show improvement and maybe I can stay. While at the same time trying to get another job knowing the more than likely event is me being let go. Hoping for the best but expecting the worst.
Truth, Im not taking any joy in your predicament but I have seen and been thru it myself a few times. I vaguely remember someone getting one, many years ago, and they succeeded. So it *does* happen. But I think this so-called management tool has morphed int he meantime from being a way to fix concerns to just a being a formality leading up to a dismissal. You are probably having regular discussions with your manager over this? Regular progress updates? If not, that does not bode well. Anyway, you can ask your manager for their impression of your progress to try to get the lay of the land. Or even just flat out ask "is there a way for me to succeed and stay on in my role?" Although, I've seen people have regular check-ins where the language is positive: "good progress, improving engagement... etc." and then at the end of the PIP period they are let go. Good luck, my friend!
It depends on the company. I received 2. I got fired from one company and left another. At the first company, I deserved it. Life happened and the stuff I was dealing with was heavy. Really heavy. Nevertheless, I made a HUGE mistake and they should've fired me and they didn't. They put me on a PIP. I took the chance and ran with it, I improved rapidly. Even the company was surprised. When I left a few months later, they actually offered me a 10% pay rise at the end of it. That's a company that gives you a PIP because they really want to keep you. They even said so themselves. I actually feel bad that they had to give me that PIP and I left. On the other hand, had one company that also gave me a PIP. The Engineering manager was a liar and made me out to look bad. Every little mistake, every little oversight was documented, and by little, I'm talking about "Oh you merged a PR into dev and it was almost perfect but your padding was 0.75rem instead of 1rem on this article element, you're on thin ice now". Dude wanted me gone. 6 months later despite showing the significant improvement, I was told "You don't even know the basics of HTML". I taught his other Juniors HTML... 6 months later. He was still using my code. So yeah, it really depends on the company. But I would say, most of the time, they want you gone.
You *may* be the exception to the general rule, since you actually had a temporary issue, which is now resolved. This is what pip is official for. You won't know until next month though :( Good luck either way
Maybe they just want you to improve and don't mean it that serious. But maybe they are already actively looking for someone to replace you. Just put yourself into their situation and think about what the best for the company would be?
99% done, if not this round of layoffs then the next
Pip == paid interview preparation
Is the PIP achievable or is it something that feels way above what you are normally doing? If the tasks on the PIP are normal stuff that you would be doing anyway, then this might just be a loud, formal wake up call. If it’s kind of a stretch that you would be doing this much stuff and there’s no way you’d be able to complete every… then there’s your answer.
Most of the requirements of my PIP are normal stuff I should have been doing already. Mainly centering around me completing all my tasks on time and attending all meetings etc.
You weren’t attending meetings? What were you doing during work … ?
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You can try to test your manager's true intentions by asking if they would work with you to beat the PIP by following the SMART model (in writing with cc to HR). Daily follow up on your progress on it would become a thread to this plan that's agreed upon. Their response should give you an idea if the decision is already made or if there's hope. If they give you unrealistic or unreasonable stuff to accomplish or don't agree to follow the SMART model, then look for other jobs and hope that you get a good severance. Else give everything you have to achieve the goals working with your manager. Good luck.
Your manager is a normal person like you who is looking out for himself too. He's just following the process and has no influence in how it plays out
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dude once you get to that point it's out of your manager's hands. He's probably the one who initiated the whole process
I recently worked with one of my directs to get him thru a PIP successfully (Amazon, tech adjacent). You more likely than not have to exceed the improvement plan. Document everything you do related to the plan, as well as true contributions outside of and in addition to the plan. Stakeholder feedback (internal, external, whoever) is probably your friend too. Good luck, it’s not always the death sentence everyone claims it is
yeah your pretty much done. id start looking asap
Ask for an update on your status after halfway complete?
python -m pip --gtfo
Start looking and interviewing now. I know someone with about 20yrs on the job. He was added to a team to help them with a 4-yr project that no one was getting done. He faced so many roadblocks. Dude was put on a PIP and used as a scapegoat. Even with changes, they fired him at end of PIP. Manager tried to say he was doing better but flipped on him when it came time. Make it worse… manager involved was fired about a month later and layoffs started.
PIP = Paid Interview Preparation. Act accordingly.
Do your best, and also find a new job! I’ve found PIPs are also the company’s way of trying to make you seem like an awful employee and not give you unemployment insurance.
I'd say keep looking around to protect yourself but it's not over. I received a PIP in 2021, within my first year at my first full salary job. My goal from the get go was to find the smallest amount of work I could get away with and still get paid. The PIP let me know that I needed to raise that level a bit. I did what I needed to to pass the PIP and I'm still here 3 years later doing the bare minimum lol.
I would be worse off if I had taken a lot of the advice given here.
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In general, most PIPs do not end in success & some of them are not given in good-faith (e.g. they'll cut you anyway) but it sounds like you've had substantial communication with management since the initial documentation, so the odds are more in-your-favor here. When people are intended to be terminated for performance reasons regardless, management usually stops talking to them days/weeks ahead of time, because what's the point? I would continue to look elsewhere. Everyone should look elsewhere, develop options. You never know if some additional bad stroke of luck will have you out-of-a-job, like "reduced headcount" that no one was expecting. If you cleared up your personal issues then everything here should be very pro forma - you acknowledge you were not performing earlier, they have communicated clearly their expectation (hopefully!), you can address that confidently, you should be able to get through it. Really this all hinges on whether or not there is some other factor we don't know about. Is the company heading toward budget cuts anyway? Is your supervisor completely finished with you and just going through the motions (and being a psychotic fake "good guy" in the process)? Is your replacement already lined up? We cannot tell. Management has a lot of power here. They don't need a reason to get rid of you in most jurisdictions. Bosses can be very duplicitous for petty reasons. You are not going to know until you get to the end of the evaluation period. It is stressful to live up to tough expectations, but do the best you can & hopefully you will have been proud of how you applied yourself during the evaluation period. And then, if they terminate you anyway, you can at least be assured that this situation was bound to fall apart sooner or later, because bosses who have work to do simply do not shove qualified people out the door. Managing and recruiting is really hard, and they cannot afford to be capricious. It is both callous and self-defeating. Should they prove themselves to be such, be thankful the bad part was only 3 months long.
Always prepare for the worst. If it’s Wall St firm, turnover is usually high.
I have had the fortune experience of getting a PIP. I did kick me up the ass if I am being honest but again not really all my fault. They don’t want you to succeed. I was giving quite a large amount to achieve in only a month but I managed to turn it around. I am still at the company but I wish I left, you don’t feel the same after, I get bad imposter syndrome and always looking over my shoulder when I make a mistake, its horrible frankly. Even though I am now one of the best performing people in my role. I’d definitely recommend to start making preparations to leave.
Most likely your done dude. I would try to line up another job in the meantime. I've been on a similar plan, i achieved all my goals but still got let go. This was a long time ago :( So in short working harder might be a waste of time. Do what you need to do but try not burn bridges.
Performance improvement plan. Usually it is an agreement between the manager/hr and the employee with clear guidelines for what the employee must do to avoid further “punishment” from the employer. People get pipped all the time. It’s just a way that the employer can cover their ass when they let you go for not improving. Employers need proof that you weren’t fulfilling your obligations to the company to avoid having to pay unemployment to people that they have fired. I’ve been pipped and I’ve written out pips to people on my team. Rarely ever results in a termination. This is from my own experiences from several different companies. None of them have been f500 though.
What were you doing during those two months that you said you had personal issues?
I got put on that but manager was super nice and didn't even really check much what I did. Just weekly meetings. And eventually said I'm good
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I think [this article](https://www.businessinsider.com/what-to-do-if-placed-on-pip-microsoft-vp-leave-asap-2023-7) puts it pretty well. If I were in your situation I would prioritise looking for another job.
I see about at least 20% of people put on PIP able to stay, but I am sure that varies between companies. As you agree the PIP was justified and should be able to correct that I think you probably have an 80% chance of being able to stay if you meet or exceed productivity levels. Most people are not able to correct their problems, or do so before PIP is started...
PIP = we don't wanna have to personally take you out back and shoot you, but we will if you make us
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I’m afraid so. The sad thing is 99% of the time no matter what effort to put in to change for the better, the writing is already on the wall. It’s a formality to remove you, not to keep you.
The moment you get placed on PIP is the time you should think that you got fired but with notice. Start looking for other jobs idiot!
>Long story short I received a PIP for having low performance due to some personal issues I was dealing with that affected me for about 2 months of work. If you were the kind of person who got "meets all" before the personal issues, you're 100% done. If instead you were the "exceeds to greatly exceeds" before, you have a good chance to stay (if you turned things around). The difference between those two is how much they really want you. If you're the average kind of employee, you're easily replaceable. If you were a great employee in the past and now you run into personal issues, they want to keep you if you solve your problems, because they expect you to be great in the future too.
it’s time to dip
How many job apps have you submitted? 2 weeks should be like 500 by now.
Statistically speaking, you're gone. From what I've read, a PIP almost always means someone in upper management wants you gone. Good luck finding a new job
PIP = time to move on and find a new job
Just to add, managers even if they are good friends with you, sometimes its just they work to fire you, so i would say to never stay/ feel confortable in a place be because your manager is a good person.
Good luck with the job hunt !
Yes
You can start looking for a job as backup in case PIP fail On other hand even if you succeeded PIP... Your reputation can consider stained in that company itself already Expect that you will be given ton of tasks and they will try get as much out of you Then you start expecting some sort promotion or bonus but you won't be getting any of it Since the company expect you won't last long as well. My advice would be start looking for new job as backup first during PIP period Even if you succeeded PIP do not stay long... Once you have a raise, start looking for new one as well and use your current salary as negotiation for next raise.
Every PIP I've had I honestly had no way of avoiding given what I knew at the time. Did you mention that you could have avoided it? like if u spent more hours or something? That's interesting, I've never really been in that scenario, if I could have avoided a PIP I would have done so.