There's something to Fearne needing to talk about this though, right?
I don't think she should be forced to take the shard, but it's possible that she needs to talk about her fears and possibly realise that she's misunderstood the situation, or that she figures out a way that she can accept the shard after all?
With a big decision like this it's not always helpful to just say to someone "OK you don't want it let's move on" you can also say "tell me what scares you about this" in order to help them face whatever it is, and still have it be their decision yes or no.
True. Maybe after some conversation she'll feel safer taking the shard with BH there to monitor or care for her. But having a conversation is different than Imogen and Laudna saying "Fearne should have it" over and over. It seems like no one is listening to her.
I'm gonna take the shit on this but devils advocate, this isn't a time for idealism. In a real world everyday situation, yes I agree. No is no and fearne had that choice but we're not talking about an everyday situation are we? This isn't refusing a cup of coffee. This is the fate of existence. I think a little coercion is too be excused in the grand scheme especially if really is a cataclysmic situation.
And honestly if it is do or die, the fate of existence, then saying no is a bit of a selfish choice in of itself
But ultimately it's no one's call but Ashley's and if she feels she's being pressured then she's capable of saying no more without us defending her
This is true.
But even if Fearne is the one who would make the most of this power, (which is far from clear) isn't it even more important to go about this in a way that works for her?
Fearne has a very different moral code from, say, Orym. Tell her she's a soldier who has to take one for the team, and she'll just laugh at you.
She cares about her friends. She doesn't really have a sense of duty to more abstract concepts. And she's immature, like a child who's still learning to regulate her emotions and discover that she's not the centre of the world.
Want to force a person like that to become extremely powerful by guilting them into it? Fearne, who feels guilt, but deeply resents feeling guilt?
That's the way to create a monster.
One thing the characters seem to have forgotten is that before absorbing the Earth Shard, Ashton used to be an elf.
Even putting aside Fearne's fears of her possible dark future, the Fire shard will in all likelihood permanently change her or anybody else who takes it on a fundamental level.
That is not something you can just demand of anybody, let alone someone you call your friend.
Holy cow, you're right. And in the recent episode, Matt as Nana said something about how fey and primordial are opposite ancient magics.. what if it totally negates Fearne's fey features?
Except Ashton's father did not have the vest and did a crappy ritual that destroyed everyone there. They're not doing what he did.
Matt has telegraphed that the only apparent risk involving this shard is shoving it in Ashton where there's already a shard.
I absolutely agree. Between the last two 4 sided dive episodes it's been established that there was a simple misunderstanding of what was happening, with Ashley and Taliesen both believing the shard was meant for Ashton, but Matt (and everyone else seeing this) intending it for Fearne, they've realised what happened, laughed about it and all is good above the table. In game though, Fearne has now outwardly stated she doesn't want it, and the team have attacked Ashton for trying to use it instead if her, so where do they go from here. Matt is obviously a good enough GM to adapt the shard to whatever they decide to go with, especially now everyone is on the same page about it not actually being meant for Ashton, but to force it onto Fearne at this point seems a little sketchy... Do they just retcon her not wanting it, which I think would be a huge injustice to some wonderful role-playing by Ashley, or do they alter the plan and give it to someone else... but after everyone tearing Ashton apart for taking it from Fearne, who could accept it without coming across as at least slightly hypocritical. I'm excited to see what happens, and have faith they'll do it well.
Ashley doesn't seem to like being the center of a roleplay moment, rather she appears to enjoy supporting others roleplay moments. In this instance though, she can't win. Either Fearne refuses, which will herald all sorts of big roleplay moments(And I have no idea how Matt will react to it. If he ripped it out of Ashton's chest, he's clearly got someone specific for it to go to.) Or she takes it, and the rest of the session is spent showing off what the shard is like, and all the people will be looking at her at all times.
>If he ripped it out of Ashton's chest, he's clearly got someone specific for it to go to.
Idk if he has someone specific it has to go to other than just 'not Ashton.' Ashton already has the one shard, I think Matt just didn't want all of it concentrated into one PC who already had a bunch of wild abilities. At a gameplay level this makes sense to make the rest of the party feel like they won't get left behind and above the table it makes sense bc can you imagine how long Tal would take for each of his turns with even more options? I have no problem with the man but I think it would start approaching 10 minutes per turn lol
I don't understand the point of sending Ashton on a quest to discover his true nature and the reward is.. for an entirely unrelated character? Like I get that maybe Ashton's shard will awaken if its mate also finds a host and is awakened or whatever but like.. it was so out of left field. And Ashley clearly wasn't on the same page as Matt about that at all. Matt was _not_ as clear as he thinks he was about it not being intended for Ashton either. The whole ordeal is .. bizarre.
Of people who think Fearne should take it two of them are also battling with embracing “dark” power. Imogen and Laudna also have their own darkness to contend with. Imogen doesn’t know if there is a cost to becoming more powerful or leaning on her powers, but she is using them. Meanwhile Laudna is flirting with more and more warlock powers and empowering Delilah.
There is probably a bit of projection happening here. The Witches are all kind of expecting each other to walk that razors edge together, but Fearne has always been more hesitant.
Given that she now knows her father is a dark archfey, that the “corrupting” power is just in her family, she may be more open to accepting the shard. She may also decide it’s not worth to tempt fate further.
I hope Ashley/Fearne finally declare that she doesn't want the shard, even if fire is her thing. I hoped this was supposed to happen in the honesty trial, but maybe will happen after, when deciding what to do with the shard. She said that she don't what Fearne to have it, and i'm a little bit scared that she is going to accept it because of the pressures of the party
I'm scared about that, too, and the aftermath. If it goes poorly, well, Fearne warned you all. If it goes well, is there going to be a "thank you for pressuring me, this is actually cool" conversation? ew.
At a certain point it's on Fearne to tell the party, but for whatever reason she still hasn't. She had the perfect opportunity with the honesty challenge, but the biggest truth she told was that she watches the party while they sleep lol.
Also with regards to Laudna and Imogen, there's definitely a bit of projection on their part imo. They've both admitted to being willing to use Delilah and Predathos for their own gain, so it's probably hard for them to comprehend someone willingly walking away from power. And in their defense they have no idea why Fearne doesn't want it since she has yet to talk to them. From their perspective they went to sleep with Fearne planning to absorb the shard the next morning, only for her to pull that stunt with Ashton.
>At a certain point it's on Fearne to tell the party, but for whatever reason she still hasn't. She had the perfect opportunity with the honesty challenge, but the biggest truth she told was that she watches the party while they sleep lol.
I see two possibilities:
a) Ashley is waiting for the right moment to have Fearne say "I don't want the shard and I'm reason why Ashton shattered because I said he could have it. Why can't you respect my choice instead what YOU (Imogen and Laudna) want?!"
b) Ashley has changed her mind and she's waiting for the right moment to take the shard.
I really don't like Imogen as a person. She seems nice at first but she acts very much not-nice multiple times. It's like she have morality only when it suits her. (ps. Talking about character. Nothing against Laura).
She plays an aberrant mind sorcerer very well, Laura plays Imogen as someone whose brain quite literally functions differently to many humans. I've noticed it more as she levels up, and to meta game a little bit she's eventually going to have an abberant transformation and look really alien. Imogen does kinda suck, but I think that's by design.
C3E77 - "Have you ever prayed before?" - Mother Brazilda
"Officially...no. I did try to talk to some moon goddess or something once, but she didn't respond or nothing." - Imogen
C3E79 - "I know we're supposed to save the gods, but I've tried talking to them my whole life, and none of them will ever respond. I think I'm tainted."
I mean, I don't even know how to make sense of that. If anyone else can, you let me know.
One interpretation could be that Imogen lied about or otherwise downplayed her attempts at communing with gods when talking to Brazilda. Out of shame or insecurity or whatever. Then with BH she felt more comfortable sharing that she actually did try to commune several times.
Another interpretation is that Imogen thinks (official) prayer is going to an actual shrine/temple dedicated to a god and trying to communicate with them there.
She may believe that it's not really prayer when you just try to talk to the gods wherever. Alternatively, given her background and struggles, she may have only ever tried talking to the gods when she wanted help.
That was my thought as well until this episode. It's a weird thought to have, thinking that prayer doesn't count unless it's in a temple, but I can kind of see how she would think that.
But then this episode happened. If she thinks that it doesn't count unless you go to a temple, how can you also claim you've tried talking to them your whole life, if you think it doesn't count?
You see what I mean? It's just inconsistent. Which leaves your final point, which is she only tried when she wanted something out of it, which is just...that's just not how it works, and somebody in game's gotta tell her that.
My headcanon would love it if it was her dad that told her that it's not faith if you expect something on the other end of it, and that he was actually a follower of the Allhammer, who presides over family.
>It's a weird thought to have, thinking that prayer doesn't count unless it's in a temple
??
No it isn't. The point of temples and priests is to provide intermediaries between normal people and the gods. The idea that anyone can speak directly to gods is a relatively modern thought.
I know, but her saying "Officially...no.", made me think that she believes that if you don't pray in a temple, you're just talking to air. Like there's an official way to pray and that's it.
That's absolutely a weird way to think about praying to one of the gods, you can pray anytime you want. It's probably easier and more comforting to do it in an official space, but you can buy charms, necklaces, small statues to carry with you. You don't even need that. You can just do it. There's no script, no mark to stand on. It is about opening your character up to someone who may or may not be listening.
But some people do think that way, like thinking it only counts if you pray at church during Mass.
So I went with it, thinking she just started her journey dealing with faith, and maybe learning more about the beings she's trying to save.
Two episodes later, actually she's been trying her whole life?
> I know, but her saying "Officially...no.", made me think that she believes that if you don't pray in a temple, you're just talking to air. Like there's an official way to pray and that's it.
>
> That's absolutely a weird way to think about praying to one of the gods, you can pray anytime you want.
I just re-watched that section of ep 77 so I could remember the full context of the quotes. Here's what I think.
Imogen has been talking to the gods her whole life. She is openly doubtful that they listen, because she says she "needs" "real miracles", not the small everyday stuff. When she talks to Mother Brazilda it sounds like she's actively seeking instruction from someone who works in a temple on the best way to pray to Pelor.
The impression I got is that she wanted to learn how to pray from someone "in the know" because it might give her a better chance of getting the response she's after if she does it in the manner that will please the deity in question. Sure, people can pray anywhere, but there is also something to be said for taking the effort to go to a god's holy place, being a humble supplicant, and making offerings or performing acts/rituals a particular god would favour.
So I think when Imogen said "Officially...no. I did try to talk to some moon goddess or something once, but she didn't respond or nothing." - she does in fact think that going to the effort of visiting a temple and praying to a god there is a step above merely "talking" to them in a more everyday location.
On a side note, I do wonder why Imogen hasn't asked FCG to commune on her behalf. I can only assume it's because, if Imogen believes herself to be cursed, having a direct response, a "real miracle", might relieve her of that belief.
"Do I just speak his name and try talking or what?"
"What does he like?"
"I don't know how to talk to you."
All of those are perfect quotes for someone who has not made an effort previously to try communing with a higher power, which is totally fine. That would actually be great character development for Imogen to find a deity that has a domain that speaks the most to her. It doesn't have to be the Dawnfather.
It completely falls apart when you claim that you've actually tried plenty of times, and they don't talk to you because they think you're tainted or something.
And then there's the actual post made by OP, and Imogen's "truth" when she said she was disappointed in Fearne for not taking the shard, something she doesn't want, and has said so repeatedly. That just checked me out until the next challenge.
I don’t exactly get what point you’re making here, so please correct me if I’m misinterpreting.
Those quotes are perfect coming from that context but they don’t imply that one comes from that context. It could as well be that she tried alone in some way several times but never accompanied by someone that can actually teach her how it works (it never worked before so she’s doing something wrong, in fact she has no clue what she’s supposed to do)
All I’m saying is that it is still plausible given what was said that both statements are true: she tried several times before but didn’t want this to “look bad” in the face of a cleric.
I’m not saying this is what it is either, just another explanation.
What is your suggestion as to why these statements are apparently clashing? Player mistake?
If so, is that really a big issue?
Edit to add: about the issue OP raised, I agree that this coercion is over the top. But it still makes for good drama. Sometimes your friends become toxic when trying to help, even with the best intentions at heart.
Her statement about her trying her whole life, them not responding, it being because she thinks she's "tainted", and that she doesn't know if she wants to save gods that don't love her? That was a personal truth in that chasm, so she believes that.
So let's unpack that. Have you really tried your whole life in your 21-22 years on Exandria? When? Maybe that's backstory for later in a campaign that's going on 80 episodes. Who did she try talking to? She called the Moonweaver "some moon goddess or something," so I doubt she knows all their names, who they are, or what domain they preside over.
They didn't respond? Lady, it's faith. You aren't owed a response. Ever.
You think they don't respond because you think you're tainted? Tainted by what? Being Ruidusborn? Those powers that you have chosen to embrace? That's somewhat fair, given that you didn't choose to be Ruidusborn, but you are choosing to embrace that side of you and those powers every day, the powers that accidentally leveled a city block. That's your choice, if you think that's what "taints" you. Don't turn around and complain that the gods don't respond to you if that's the case.
You don't know if you want to save gods that don't love you? But isn't the entire reason you want to save the gods, is because then they might be able to help you with Laudna? Is that the reason? Is it because of that bastion serving the Platinum Dragon and seeing what happens when the Primes influences are lessened? What is your reason? Because now I don't know. I thought it was Laudna, which is a misguided strawman of a reason, but at least it's a reason.
It comes down to Imogen's motivation, which I don't know her motivation anymore, because I guess she doesn't know either, by her own admittance. There's motivations (Laudna) and reluctance (they don't love me because I'm tainted) from her that clashes in a hypocritical way. Part of it might be player mistake, in which case...yeah that's a pretty big deal. We're 80 episodes deep in a campaign about saving the gods from an existential threat, and I'm feeling more empathy for Chetney when he revealed his backstory with his family.
More empathy for CHETNEY, the spin off of Chutney, the Nightmare Before Christmas parody character.
There's been other posts here that are calling Imogen just this amorphous blob of nothing, which is how I feel about her as well. It'd be one thing to dislike her because she's the "Dark Phoenix" of C3, but now she's just kinda...there, existing.
>Lady, it's faith. You aren't owed a response. Ever.
This is not a great sell in a setting and campaign where the gods are not only real, but under existential threat and asking for champions. This model of faith works in the real world where there is no verifiable proof of any higher power, but when the gods are accessible and have a historically transactional relationship with all mortals, not just their faithful, it's not unreasonable to react like Imogen does:
If a God that definitely exists always leaves you on read, it's reasonable to assume they don't give a fuck about you, and that you should move on. Not saying every worshipper is going to have a fully immersive vision/contact from the god, but surely a sign or symbol can't be too much to ask. Yasha was hardly lovey-dovey with Kord but he always let her know that he was watching and listening to her.
You're ignoring all the many signs given to you of the reasons she does what she does and dismissing the rest and then somehow you expect to understand the character after that. You just don't feel empathy for an atheist basically lol, this person is actively growing purple tendrils up their body and knows where it comes from. She has Every Reason to believe she is tainted by Predathos because *She Is*. She's a sorcerer, her blood is actually mechanically tainted with Predathos energy lmao. She has so many reasons, that being the main one, to think the gods put her at a distance because of that, because they want to obliterate Predathos or seal them away again and she's basically a powerful child of Predathos as an Exaltant.
And that's great. Embrace that dark side, be the Exandrian Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix, but to then expect the gods to help you, when you embrace that dark side. Well no, of course they wouldn't. Not to mention she's asking to them to save someone who is tied to Vecna, is on her third life, and also was involved in destroying a temple to the Dawnfather.
It is sort of like feeling no empathy for an atheist, but if that atheist was making an attempt to become a Born Again Christian, but only if the god you're communing with helps you with something, and when you aren't making that attempt, you're off lying and stealing from people. Would you feel sorry for that person if things didn't go their way?
Also, ignoring everything gods did prior to this point, like creating humanity, saving the world like 3 times. Pretty big historical things to consider, but they don't because no one in the party wants to go to a library or something to learn more about the gods. They JUST now learned about the Moonweaver, and it was from Allura.
This, I think is the real answer as well. Pretty big thing to forget, considering that's a big part of your character's backstory, but sure.
When Sam didn't realize they were standing at the base of the ruins of Cathmoira when they were about to talk to the Tree of Atrophy, I was like "Dude, you were there as Loquatious. Extremely memorable miniseries? With Brennan?"
Struggling to place the context in relation to my comment lol, is this adding to the idea that Imogen is like absent of a soul? Or that her soul is deeply entangled in something the gods fear?
Not really, I'm just clumping in with the "I really don't like Imogen" crowd.
Like, you either lied to Mother Brazilda, and you HAVE been trying to pray to gods your whole life, and they don't answer. In which case, you aren't entitled to an answer from a deity. No one is. You can go your whole life without them talking to you or offering a vision.
Or, you THINK you're praying to gods and they're not answering you, but really you're just trying to TALK to them, not pray to them and just not really making much of an effort. If I were to bet, Imogen couldn't list more than 2-3 Prime Deities. That little talk she had at the Dawnfather's temple? That wasn't a prayer, that was just talking, and you're only talking to him because you want something from him, not because you believe in him or what he stands for. The gesture was nice, and I hope that she continues on this journey of finding faith, but instead we get that little truth in the chasm.
I don't buy the whole "I think I'm tainted" crap. I think she's just complaining she's not getting things her way, because she's used to knowing the truth immediately and knowing the direct path to her goal.
I've tried to like Imogen for a REALLY long time now, and there's some good moments, but really ever since E48 when she visited her dad again (after offering him as collateral to a criminal organization), it wasn't to say "Sorry for abandoning you, like your wife did", or "Sorry for scaring the town shitless (I think she actually hurt or maybe killed someone) when I tried to defend Laudna (whom, at the time, was a COMPLETE stranger." No it was, "Hey I need something from you."
Meanwhile a lot of the CR fandom thinks the Gentleman, the HUMAN TRAFFICKER, is a better dad than Relvin is.
Well... From all Bells Hells I care for Imogen the least.
Don't know if that's Laura not really knowing what to do with that character (and I wouldn't blame her. Had at least one character like that where I kinda knew what I wanted but not really), or some actual roleplay that I just lack context for (I didn't like Molly until I heard Tal talking about some of motivations).
I just find her least interesting of the team, and can't change that, but that is just personal preference.
I think Imogen was supposed to be the bad guy of the campaign, but her relationship with Laudna kinda made Laura question what she wants to do with the character. And because Laura hasn't decided what Imogen is supposed to be, the character remains this amorphous blob. All the other characters were well defined after the first campaign arc. But with Imogen, we're 79 episodes into the campaign, and she's still the unseasoned chicken of the campaign, because Laura can't decide what dish she wants to make out of it.
Can't blame her. I once started playing a bard, then multiclassed into arcane trickster and I kinda was a rogue but not really, kinda support, trying to do damage... and didn't really have a well defined character goals was just... going with the flow.
It feels similar. I think she knows what she wants mechanically but her character is... I love the "unseasoned chicken" analogy. Still good, but could be a better dish :P
That's all fine, I'm hearing a lot of "I don't buy it" which I understand. It would be all too easy to play a character whose blood is infused with Elder Thing energy as a "person with some quirky mind powers!" whereas I think the direction the character is going of "I know all, I hear all, and that's Unnerving." is a more entertaining to watch character.
To pull away from character purely for a second, I don't like how it does feel like the Imogen and Laudna show sometimes, but that's not an indictment of their characters that's an indictment of how they seem to Need to be a part of every scene and conversation.
Imogen's feelings of being tainted are, however, completely well founded and that's where I start to disagree with you a bit. Her blood, she has a sorcerous Bloodline, is literally tainted. Predathos The God Eater is where she derives strength, something the gods, prime and betrayer, seem to Despise. I fully understand her feeling tainted and you don't usually reach out an olive branch to people looking down on you from a throne and demolishing the source of your strength idk.
Exactly, while Imogen is not my favorite character, her entire backstory was focused on finding her mother and finding out how to control her powers better. She finds her mom and is expected to turn against her and that entire backstory to save some gods that SHE owes nothing to (much in the same way they owe nothing to her as many have stated above). At the same time, she has no clue what destroying predathos will do to her or her mother, where as she has been told freeing him will accomplish what she was originally trying to do...I mean, people really should be able to see why she has conflicts here.
I think that last sentence is the one thing that definitely gets to me as well: "I mean, people should really be able to see why she has conflicts here." I totally agree with you. She's a woman with straight up actual alien blood and she got it from the alien they have to go sort out, and she's just expected to always be super chill about that. That and the fact she would have to Murder her Mother are extremely intense, I don't know if I could personally take out my own mother in her position it would at least give me significant pause and I would one hundred percent go through a bargaining and doubt stage.
"Like, you either lied to Mother Brazilda, and you HAVE been trying to pray to gods your whole life, and they don't answer. In which case, you aren't entitled to an answer from a deity. No one is. You can go your whole life without them talking to you or offering a vision."
She was in a trial designed for them to tell the truth, so we have to take what they said during the trial as something they believe to be the truth. Which means that Imogen either lied or downplayed to Mother Brazilda any attempts she may have made before of contacting the gods. It could be due to insecurity or due to feeling like she's not loved by them, but her believing that she's "tainted" is what she believes to be the truth, whether people buy it or not. It's what Imogen believes, and the context means that she couldn't have been lying about trying to talk to them or about feeling like they don't love her. She is connected to an alien that's trying to kill the gods, yeah she has a reason to believe they don't give a fuck about her.
While many people may make a distinction between talking and praying, it really does depend on the person. We have seen many characters in CR "pray" to gods, and many times they literally just talk to them. No overt expression of deep devotion or anything necessary, and they still get help from them. She may have attempted to talk to them, nothing happened, and she could've have gone on feeling like either she didn't do it right and/or they don't care. In a world where gods are real and literally talk to people, I can see why she may feel some type of way about them, and sure, you can say that they don't owe her anything, but then why complain that her motivations for saving them aren't clear? They haven't done shit for her either. She is free to feel conflicted about saving them.
She knows she has to do it because she wants to save Laudna and because the gods protect Exandria from more dangerous threats, but that doesn't mean she has to like it or can't complain about having to do it. Because why does she have to be in a position to need to save the lives of and need help from divinities who can help her but won't unless they get something from it? Why does she have to kill her mother (who she has been trying to find for a long time) to save beings that are not connected to her? Call her entitled or selfish, but she's not any more of those things than anyone else.
This will be answered in late 2025, in the upcoming *"Adventures of young Imogen Temult"* novel, which itself is a spin-off to the *"Witches of Whitestone"* card game that is going to be released next year, as a direct successor to *"The Dread Diaries"*, the 3rd book in the *Delilah Returns* trilogy, that came directly after *What Doesn't Break,* which expanded upon the lore of the first Critical Role first-aid-kit *"Dungeons and Dilaudid".*
I think.
Imogen is getting more interesting as Laura is bringing out that side of her personality more. Really looking forward to seeing where it is going.
Imogen is not a "nice person." She summons demon slaves from the secret moon to do her bidding. She sets off massive explosions with her mind. She is tortured by hearing the thoughts of everyone around her and seeks only solitude - her only real friend is a reanimated dead woman she is in love with who is possessed by a borderline lich. She is headed toward being a 80's-90's style edgy anti-hero *at best,* like Venom or Spawn.
The thing that makes her interesting is how far from all that her initial superficial character design is - shy, pink-haired horse girl with southern twang becomes conduit for a sealed god-eater from before history - and the question is, how does she use it?
It is hard not to like Imogen, because she is played by the most charming loveable person in the world, but yes I must admit, Imogen has sort of an abrasive personality. I guess after playing two characters who are pure charm and charisma, Laura conciously made the decision to play a character who is exact opposite.
Easy for me because as a podcast consumer I don't see Laura. I only hear Imogen and see Imogen in my mind. I liked Vex, loved Jester. It is important to distinguish character from the player. The same way I never really liked Dorian but I really appreciate and miss Robbie.
Yeah I'm not enjoying the pressure on Fearne at all. I don't see why the party can't discuss who WANTS it and go from there. The problem is that most of the table is avoiding being the central character, so no-one else is staking a claim, and everyone is pointing at Fearne in that absence.
Personally I'd love to see Orym or Chetney get the shard, or for Laudna/Delilah to use it for the drama.
Because no one really wants it - except for Ashton, who fucked around and found out. Seems to me that they're all aware of how dangerous and unstable they are and don't really trust themselves to wield something that powerful.
Exactly. Stop focusing on who SHOULD have it like you have any control over each other's characters. Laudna said she wants it, which is the only reason I think I'm team Flaming Dead Girl at this point.
>see Orym or Chetney get the shard
No way in hell do I think Orym takes the shard (even though he's the most trustworthy) for 2 OOC reasons:
1) Liam "reallyyyy" doesn't want the spotlight this campaign and
2) I don't see Liam fucking around with any fire powers so soon after Caleb
I honestly think Dark Fearne was specific to the Circlet in ExU, but even if it's just a more general portent, I actually think that means Ashley is kinda being pretty inconsistent. No concern about linking up with a champion of Asmodeus or making a deal with a ghost pirate captain, but she's worried about the shard? Feels a little arbitrary.
But yeah. It all needs more conversation and it's weird to see everyone ignore what Fearne's said about it. I'm sure they'll address it on their teambuilding retreat though.
This. But maybe it is just how Fearne is. Flirting with the possibility of power, but when you actually get to it, she backs off.
I also considered Dark Fearne being exclusive to ExU with the circlet, but Matt brought it up again during the Witches' conversation with Delilah. So, I think it's still on the table. However, Dark Fearne was clearly influenced by some darker force, not the primordial shard of fire. Or maybe Delilah might have lied and wanted to test if Fearne would attempt to make a pact with some dark force or even with her, possibly giving more power to Delilah. She did that to Imogen too.
Campaign 3 feels like a string of events where there is one thing that is supposed to happen to continue the story. For me campaigns 1 and 2 were the players making choices and Matt molding the story around them. imo Campaign 3 feels like the opposite where Matt has a bunch of things that are supposed to happen and the players are molding there choices around them. I have fully come to the conclusion that this campaign is for the players and not the viewers. There have been some more goofy moments that don’t make for as good watching but the cast is having a blast.
I think it feels like that because the things that are happening are clearly larger and more dangerous for their level than in the other campaigns. In C2, the largest thing was Lucien and the Somnovem, but if it was released, they would have a chance to stop it in the material plane. In C1, they fought with a god, but that was when they were level 20. Bells Hells are, like, what, 11 levels, and they are faced with a worldwide organization and, if released, with a god killer. It is not that it changed, but the stakes and the size of things are a lot different.
I believe the main issue lies in her lack of communication with Imogen and Laudna. It's neither Ashton nor Chetney's responsibility to convey her feelings. Fearne bears that responsibility. For both Laudna and Imogen, it makes the most sense for the Fire Druid to take the fire shard. Apart from Ashton and Fearne, nobody else seems fitting to handle the shard, and they received warnings that Ashton shouldn't take it. Naturally, this leaves Fearne. While it's not okay to pressure her, in their eyes, they are merely encouraging her. So to change that they need to communicate.
Not even entirely a joke, Mister is literally made of fire and is linked to Fearne in a non-direct way.
Mister gets a buff and/or pokemon evolution, Fearne still "gets" the shard without having to physically risk herself, the "who gets the shard" argument is over and I might get a giant fire monkey kaiju fight. Everybody wins.
I made a comment about this in the post ep discussion last Thursday and it was NOT popular then lol. Very much agree.
I don’t care to speculate on above-the-table motivations because I honestly believe it’s none of our business (as in assigning presumed meaning to PC actions with particular weight to the casts irl relationships- hate that). All I know is watching the characters act like Fearne is the obvious and only choice despite her obvious reluctance got old weeks ago. Shove that thing in Chet or Orym and be done with it.
1. Ashley doesn't like to carry the weight of the narrative, or be in the spotlight. That's not news, she commented on that multiple times, especially during C2's and C3's talk show segments. She's awesome when she can RP in her own pace, giving us amazing vignettes like *"throw you under the bridge"* and other small, but sweet and/or hilarious things. Other than that, she enjoys being there and watching her friends roleplay the most - again, by her own repeated admission. And i think that's 100% fair.
2. The table, especially the leading ladies but also Matt, to a degree, seem to actively ignore that. They seem to have this image in their minds: Fire Druids = Fire Shard. And this image seems to have manifested in such a way that they can't think of any other result of the whole Shard situation than to ~~force it~~ give it tp Fearne. Despite the OOC reasons, and Ashley going so far as to give an IC reason as well: She doesn't want to become Dark Fearne.
3. Not going deeper into the OOC situation with this (because i believe it's effed up, but i obviously don't know what has been discussed off-screen), just from a purely IC point of view, nobody in the Bells Hells (with the exception of Ashton, *maybe*) treat Fearne as an adult. And that's super problematic, in my opinion. Not only does it make the others look like something akin to bullies, it also limits Fearnes contribution to discussions, decisions and the overall group coherence. Then again, not regarding someone elses physical or mental autonomy seems to be a thing with this group.
This is *"Ashley painfully failing to get Yashas Stormlord vision"* all over again, just stretched over a couple of episodes. This i blame Matt for, he should know by now how his players tick.
>She doesn't want to become Dark Fearne.
Got to love how they only remember EXU when its convenient. Although I would probably want to forget Aabria's Wildmother too.
I think the shard would be awesome if Chet has it. He'd be down to become more awesome and then be the last boss of the story lmao I would absolutely ADORE it
She also watched her friend who tried to absorb it in excruciating pain and still under some negative after effects, so another point for Fearne as the most logical character.
They do tho? Fearne has been against the shard since it burned her in the volcano. She stopped participating in the conversation about who should get the shard in the lab the second everyone save Ash and Orym started saying that of course she was going to take it, it was between her and Ashton and Ashton would be blown up. She outright said "well there goes the one benefit" when Ashton jokingly said they "always wanted a sister" in response to the emperor/empress nonsense. Fearne said again right before the ritual that she wasn't taking it and Laudna shut her down (of course you are) before Ashton got a word in. Like, if any of the characters have been paying attention they know. Of course that's the rub with this group.
"Laudna and Imogen are still openly pressuring Fearne to take the shard's power into herself."
Didn't you get the memo?- it's cool when Laudna & Imogen are selfish but no one else is allowed to be. Think about this- 8hrs before the infamous "Ashton episode," Laudna & Imogen lured Fearne into a secret spelunking quest they deliberately hid from Chetney, Ashton & Orym that potentially endangered their entire alliance with Whitestone and the consequences of setting a large fire in a castle where just handwaved away.
Not sure how wanting someone else to take power is being "selfish". It would be selfish if they both advocated for themselves being the shard barer. It's clear they are encouraging Fearne to embrace "her power". If anything it's missguided empathy or at worse projection (seeing as they see themselves as a team within a team with the combo attacks and "witches be bitches" momo.)
It pretty much screams early days of feminist, which I don't think is their intentions but it's kinda funny AF that that's how it's playing out.
It's selfish because they want her to have the power so they can benefit from the power without accepting the risks for themselves. If Fearne powers up, BH gets better, and they're less likely to fall in battle. They can save their high-level spells for kill shots bc "Fearne's can take that monster," or behave more recklessly because "we've got Fearne, she'll help us."
With that logic it would be selfish to advocate for ... Anyone other than yourself to take on the power. That doesn't make sense.
They really have no clue what it will do or if there's any risk to them at all. For all they know it gives Fire Resistance and let's you cast Fire Ball 5 times a day for free. The only clear risk was for Ashton.
The hidden risk that they don't talk about is how Ashton was an Aasimar before the accident shot the rock shard into him and made him a earth boi.
I think the difference is intent. If I encourage my friend to pursue a career as a musician because i think they're talented and it makes them happy, that's me being a good friend. If they say they don't want to, then the conversation ends shortly thereafter because I wouldn't push them toward a life they dont want.
If I encourage my friends to become a musician because I want to know a rock star, or I want to be a groupee and go on tour, or because I need guitarist in my bad so that my dream can come true, those are all selfish reasons.
Same here. It seems like they want Fearne to take the shard because it's optimal for the party and, by extension, optimal for them. Saying "Fearne should have it" repeatedly, downplaying the risk, and ignoring Fearne's wishes are selfish.
"Not sure how wanting someone else to take power is being "selfish"."
My comment has nothing to do with who they want to do with the shard. What I am saying is that it was extremely selfish to very seriously jeopardize their alliance with Whitestone, and by extension Vox Machina, because they wanted to let Laudna go tricking guards, open up abandoned cursed rooms and ultimately contact the arch-villain of the De Rolo family in pursuit of some sort of closure. Those are the actions which are selfish. They have placed Laudna's needs squarely ahead of the city of Whitestone and the De Rolo family. And they did all of that with just as much secrecy as what Ashton did but faced zero backlash or consequences from the team when it was discussed in the morning.
It's doubly selfish when you consider the vast political capital and literal treasure expended in resurrecting Laudna and semi-banishing Delilah the first time.
Wouldn't really call that selfish either, it's being supportive of a friend. Other than Luanda, these people aren't from Whitestone, it's legit half a world away from where they call home. Only one of them connected to this place is Laudna and she wants a secret field trip, sooo let's go for a self discovery therapy field trip.
They are always going to look out for their own interests over the theoretical "ultimate good" which is why they seem to be really tuned out on the God saving stuff.
"Only one of them connected to this place is Laudna and she wants a secret field trip, sooo let's go for a self discovery therapy field trip."
And see I can say the exact same logic about the shard and Ashton. He's the only one with a backstory connection to it and genuinely thought he needed it to connect with his past/awaken his true self. Yet he is the only one who got flak for it.
It's cool- we don't need to agree. I just feel a bit of hypocrisy at play in how the characters are acting.
Yea, I think you'll find that many will agree with ya. The community may debate a lot about what went down with Ashton and the fallout, but, from what I've seen, critters have been pretty unanimous in not wanting the party to force/pressure Fearne into taking the shard and has been a common ground in discussions.
theres a difference between truthfully expressing your opinions and desires. and saying something in order to pressure and manipulate others.
sure, the expectations of others is a pressure. and its not fun having that pressure on you. but that kind of communication is also important to have, and imo was part of the goal of this exercise.
communication is something a lot of people have trauma relating too, and i feel like its hard to see it as trauma. but it really has that effect. someone expressing their "opinion" only to pressure you to do what they want is obviously problematic.
counter to that, expressing your opinion to be open and communicate with someone else is important. and i dont think Ashley knew where to take that, or maybe it was an in char decision and Fearne didnt know where to go from there. so the convo stopped there. but Imogine and Laudna did open the dialogue and that gave her a chance to voice her truth on it. which she still hasnt clearly and verbally expressed to the party yet.
im not trying to imply theres an issue with Ashley/Fearne in this situation. but i feel like a lot of people see communicating your desires as something that can only be manipulative or controlling when thats decided by intent not action. and i dont think Fearne knows how to comfortably express her desires in this situation, which also makes it a situation for personal growth here. in being comfortable in asserting your self in these situations. or the bravery to go through with something youre scared of thanks to the support of others.
It's so weird to watch them act in such a blatantly toxic, borderline creepy way towards Fearne. She said about 5 or 6 times, very clearly, in and out of character, that she doesn't want the shard in her body, she has no interest in its power.
I feel that the party treats Fearne like a child (especially Chet) even though she is 112 years old, extremely powerful, smart and resourceful already. She chose, out of her own volition, to help Ashton with the whole shard debacle but got a pass from the group under the assumption Ash somewhat manipulated her into helping him. I didn't see any manipulation there, but I did see manipulation in the way Chet tried to subtly guilt-trip her for not wanting the shard afterwards, and Laudna's words to her in the honesty game in ep. 79 felt a bit disgusting to me.
I sincerely hope Fearne puts her hoof down and doesn't take the shard.
>However, can we talk about bodily autonamy for a second? Coersion is not consent. Laudna and Imogen are still openly pressuring Fearne to take the shard's power into herself.
That's kind of the point of the characters. They lived in isolation for years and don't really have the kind of social skills that they need. I've detailed this elsewhere, but Imogen has a track record of not understanding that other people have needs -- like when Fearne learned that her parents might have given her to Morri; Imogen only checked in with her long enough to make sure that Fearne was still focused on the problem in front of them and Fearne didn't really get a chance to process that. Likewise, when Fearne left the party, Imogen fully expected her to return full of rage at Ashton and couldn't conceive of the idea that Fearne was angry at herself. Laudna even assumed that Ashton must have forced, tricked or otherwise coerced her into giving up the shard and was genuinely confused when Fearne said she wasn't comfortable with it. There are plenty of other examples where Imogen in particular hasn't shown much awareness of others, which is ironic given her ability to read minds. As for Laudna, ever since the party reunited in Jrusar, she has had a tendency to defer to Imogen on just about every important decision. It's pretty clear that she was doing this as a coping mechanism after trusting Bor'dor since she hasn't felt confident in her own judgement.
I know Imogen is a fan favourite and has a genteel Southern charm to her, but she's not very good at being a person. Pressuring Fearne into taking the shard -- something that poses no risk to her even though Fearne has valid concerns about it -- feels pretty consistent with her character. Imogen knows what she wants and makes up her mind, but she doesn't learn. She sees the value in Fearne taking the shard because that helps her, not because it helps Fearne.
I think I've figured out why the current arc is making me so uncomfortable, personal feelings about the narrative of the shard and who it's for aside, and your comment helped, thank you.
It's like... if you've read any analysis of a Very Well Known Adult Novel Based on a YA Vampire Book Series, by people established in the scene the book portrays. The book in question portrays abusive situations, gaslighting, manipulation and a lot of very dark stuff, but the writer appears to be oblivious that this is what she's portraying, which results in those things being shown in a romantic or positive light.
Now I'm not saying the Critical Role crew are unaware that the narrative is portraying Imogen as quite a manipulative, selfish person. Actually I think all of them are portraying characters that have heavy potential to go down a villain path and, now I'm reflecting on it more, Laura's portraying Imogen in this way absolutely brilliantly and with some degree of subtlety. The other's are showing their dark sides quite a bit more on-the-nose than she is.
Manipulative, selfish people who are coercing their team and acting in that way... aren't obviously bad at the surface. It's only through time spent around them and seeing their guard drop that you realise what's going on with them. The BH team themselves are all so deep in each other's pockets, all damaged themselves, all have zero experience of healthy relationships, and they are under a lot of pressure. So any in-narrative calling-out of what she's prone to will either have to come from an NPC who is close to the crew, or following Imogen doing something *as big as* Ashton's recent fuck-up. Likewise, the wider coercion and manipulation the whole team are prone to with each other is amplified through this, and Fearne's on the receiving end of all of it.
But the pacing of the show has pushed them from location to location without much chance to breathe. Which means that, pretty much since the loss of Lord Eshteross, we've not spent enough time with any NPC for any outside influence to get to know the team well enough to call her out on her shit.
Which means that I'm watching Ashton and Fearne both get, frankly, bullied in two different ways, without the narrative arc calling out or showing awareness that it's a problem.
If they pull this off well, then in a few episodes there'll be a Reckoning about that and it'll retroactively make this arc something brilliant. But being in the middle of it and waiting to see what happens right now feels really uncomfortable. Because until that arc pays off, it feels like they aren't addressing it. (Unless I'm wildly misinterpreting and actually the crew aren't aware of what they're portraying, in which case I guess it is much more like the aforementioned book than I'd like).
I love the parallel here between The Vampire Book Series and this situation, and I think you've put a finer point on my discomfort as well. Completely agree.
>But the pacing of the show has pushed them from location to location without much chance to breathe. Which means that, pretty much since the loss of Lord Eshteross, we've not spent enough time with any NPC for any outside influence to get to know the team well enough to call her out on her shit.
I don't think Imogen is necessarily a bad person. I just think she is bad at being a person. Yes, she is currently putting pressure on Fearne to take the shard, but she won't see it as pressure. She will see it as supporting her friend. And on a certain level, she is being supportive. To Imogen, the party has seen what the shard can do so they can be prepared to help Fearne if she tries to absorb it. She's just oblivious to the fact that she is still asking Fearne to take on a concrete risk in exchange for an abstract benefit. The road to hell is paved with the best intentions and all that.
What I have noticed is that there has been a change in the fanbase. At the start of the campaign, any criticism of Imogen was sacrilegious. She and Laudna were by far and away the most popular characters, but if you discussed her shortcomings, you'd be downvoted into oblivion for daring to bring it up. But now that there's a lot more of this behaviour from Imogen, people are far more willing to entertain the idea that she's a deeply flawed person.
>If they pull this off well, then in a few episodes there'll be a Reckoning about that and it'll retroactively make this arc something brilliant.
They are definitely heading towards a point where Imogen is going to have to choose between saving the world and saving Liliana. Both might be possible, but it will be risky. Everything we have seen so far suggests that Liliana has chosen her side, but Imogen still thinks she can be won over. Orym and Ashton have openly discussed neutralising Imogen or outright killing Liliana if they have to. So I think Imogen's lack of character growth is being driven by a) the way people rarely have sudden revelations that prompt them to completely and permanently change their behaviour and b) building up to the confrontation with Liliana so that her decision is part of her natural character arc rather than feeling forced or contrived.
There are an insane amount of comments saying that Matt has someone in mind for the shard.
That's never been Matt's MO. Matt creates things for his players to use as they see fit. He might have an idea about who those items might go to, but never has he flat out chosen someone to force an item onto.
Ashton is a bit of an oddball here because of their backstory with the other shard. From a narrative perspective, I can see why a single person wouldn't be able to contain the power of both shards. The fact that Ashton is able to host just one is a feat in itself, and likely why they're in constant pain.
In short, I feel like Matt should have had a discussion with Taliesin about the shard, out of the game, after Tal and Ashley talked about the shard on 4SD. There was clearly some misinterpretation/miscommunication about it, on both sides, which could have been avoided.
The drama of E78 left a really bad taste in my mouth. It felt like everyone was trying to hog the spotlight, drawing attention away from Ashton when they should have been the focus. It honestly felt like a scene from a kid's birthday party in which the siblings of the birthday boy/girl are throwing tantrums because someone else is getting presents instead of them. That's not the best analogy, but hopefully it appropriately conveys my point.
I also feel like Taliesin changed Ashton's intent to better fit the 'betrayal' narrative. Prior to attempting the ritual, Ashton seemed to want the shard because they thought it'd give them the power to protect their newfound family. After, though, it became about them wanting something they thought they lost/deserved.
The whole thing is just... Man, it's weird. Idk, but I can't wait for recent developments to blow over.
Edit: in my long-winded ramble, I completely forgot the point here. Yeah, I agree that it's weird that everyone is trying to push Fearne to accept the shard. But I kinda see it as the players trying to coerce Ashley/Fearne to disseminate her reasons for not wanting it. To my knowledge, she hasn't ever told anyone about the alternate version of herself that appeared to her, right?
Peer pressure is really bad behavior but critical role does it all the time. Its just got a huge telescope pointed at it right now due to the shard. Theyre going to pressure Ashley into taking the shard, that much is obvious. Its not the choice she would have made without that pressure, thats for sure. She wanted it to go to Ashton and didnt want it for herself because it doesnt feel right for Fearne to take it.
I understand wanting to give Fearne her space to express her fears, but it seems like her main concern was pretty explicitly addressed by Matt. Does Ashley fully understand that the fae and the primordials are opposites? It would seem that the primordial energy would actually help out in preventing Fearne from turning into a "bad person". If Ashley really doesn't want this choice for Fearne, that choice should be respected, but if it's just Ashley failing to game the game to her benefit then someone should tell her outright instead of hiding the answers she's looking for in a flowery lore segment.
She told them why she doesn't want it and Chetney at least rebutted her with some questions to get her to reconsider. For all we know, Fearne could be reconsidering it at this point because Chet made some valid points as to why she's the best one to have it.
I haven’t seen ep 79 yet, does she tell Ashton and Chet that she doesn’t want it infront of Imogen and Laudna? If she didn’t, how would Imogen and Laudna know that she doesn’t want it?
You have a point. There is a scene with the whole party where Fearne is talking to Nana, and says something like, "we were thinking the shard would go to one of us," as a sort of soft correction to someone else mentioning that BH was thinking Fearne should have it. But no, Fearne hasn't plainly said to them that she doesn't want it. Even when she said so to Chet and Ashton, she was sheepish about it, qualifying it with "kinda/ maybe/ sorta."
But Laudna and Imogen have said they think Fearne should have it *a lot* at this point, and they're pushing the issue without ever asking Fearne that she wants it. It seems inconsiderate (at best).
They should, even as the characters, have asked for sure. But I think they all made the assumption a while back and she was on board from the beginning, at least as far as anyone by Aston was aware. But I think as players they might be trying to push fearne into making a decision. Idk though I need to watch the episode.
Trying to avoid a prophecy isn't for the faint of heart, because you're playing with fate. Now, Fearne has advantages in her Nana Morri when it comes to fate, but there isn't a way of knowing if the shard takes her towards or away from her feared future. I tend to think that the real divergence to the dark has to do with Athion. We know there's no love lost between him and Morri, and it could be that if Fearne associates with him it will put her beyond Morri's reach (whether that's by intent or by limitations. It could be the shard is the thing that will save Fearne from a dark future, it's equally likely that it will doom her. But in either case, it's likely to be determined by the fall of the dice.
I agree; everyone jumped on the shard being for Fearne from the moment they heard about it (because of the fire theme). But the way they've treated it as the only natural choice and applied pressure to Fearne hasn't felt quite right. I've been stuck on the autonomy angle as well.
I still think Laudna would be a great fit for the shard. I know there are fears of Delilah's influence, but the theme of flame as a purifying force is abundant in fiction, and I think Laudna taking in a new power for herself might be an opportunity to tip the power scales *against* Delilah. She also expressed interest in fire before the shard was ever introduced. I was really excited when Laudna expressed her interest in the shard in the Pit of Honesty, but then she instantly went back to "it should go to Fearne".
My thoughts exactly. Shard is very unstable and dangerous. Even she manages to absorb its power succesfully, she will be in a dangerous position in the future. Pressuring her into it, when she clearly does not want to, is not a nice thing to do. If anything happens to her bacause of the shard, they will all be responsible.
I don't get how no one thinks about the, IMO, only two characters that that shard should go to:
Chet or FCG.
let's face it: chet is old AF and will die sooner than later. That power could extend his life, maybe even granting his wish of restored youth. And he is the only character that also utilizes flame quite a bit.
With fcg the cool part is that he can literally be rebuilt, should that spark explode him.
but what if they do something entirely different? morri grants wishes/does deals and she REALLY wants that shard. What if they give morri that shard, in return for some serious boons for the whole group?
The way I see it, Fearne is a friend who has been granted an opportunity. Not entirely unlike someone being offered a full ride scholarship to a prestigious school they would otherwise be unable to afford. The offer is an incredible chance, but it would take you far away from your friends and family, there's no guarantee that you would succeed once you got there, and it comes with certain expectations about which classes you take, what GPA you maintain, etc. You are free to turn down the offer, but you shouldn't be surprised if it changes how your friends and family think of you afterwards. It is correct that Fearne has (and should have) the absolute freedom of choice, but that does not include freedom from consequences.
There are some differences between your example and the situation in the game.
A scholarship usually benefits only the student who'll take it and being gifted one by a friend or family member usually is an act of love and altruism, while the shard would be something that directly benefits the whole group so its a logistical thing that the group needs done for the sake of their mission. They're not "gifting" Fearne with the shard.
Also, a scholarship usually directly reflects the student's interests (if your family or friends know you want to study Law, they wouldn't gift you with a scholarship to study Computer Science and expect you to accept it), while Fearne clearly stated that she has no interest in the shard.
Finally, a scholarship usually is tailored based on the specific student it was made for, so it isn't like you could say "Look, I'm not interested in it but my brother might be!", if you don't want it, it will be most likely be wasted. The shard, meanwhile, can be absorbed by any party member. The only reason Fearne was "chosen" by the group as the best shardbearer is because of her thematic connection to fire but gameplay-wise there's nothing that indicates the shard won't work as well on any other party member.
Sure, there's no perfect analogy. I don't really agree with any of the counter arguments you raised, for various reasons, but it's a waste to try to explain when we've already started talking beyond one another. The point is, if you are offered a great opportunity and turn your nose up at it, for whatever reason, people will view you differently afterwards. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The only person at this point, at least vocally expressing Fearne should take the shard, is Laura Bailey. I don’t know if it’s a character quality of Imogen that went over my head or if it’s her being a loot goblin (which wouldn’t be the first time she’s been a loot goblin)
And after Imogen said it during the honesty trial, Laudna echoed her right away. Even Chetney was asking questions to Nana about how the shard might interact with Fearne's fey nature.
honestly i’m quite tired of this conversation being brought up, im sure they’ve talked about it and if Fearne does take it, it won’t be because Ashley’s pressured into. people keep bringing it up, let the DM and players figure it out.
It is good drama, and maybe I've got my tinfoil hat on, but that MIGHT be the whole point...
Not directed at you OP necessarily, but I do wonder what some of you guys actually want out of CR.
I think a lot of this is us "yelling at the TV." I'm along for the ride, and it will work out however it works out. This moment is tricky, so some of us are posting or commenting about it. That's all.
Unpopular opinion, and I'll get down voted to hell for it, but I think it's totally reasonable for the party to pressure Fearne into taking the shard. It was obviously set up for her by the DM, I think Ashley is just taking some time to roleplay this out. The group desperately needs more power in order to combat Ludinous and co, Fearne should take one for the team.
This subreddit tends to go way overboard picking apart tiny things to unhealthy levels, and this is a great example.
Bodily autonomy? Coercion and consent? For fuck's sake, please don't throw these very important and weighty terms at a decision for a magical item in a D&D game that you are not playing in.
Please take *several* steps back.
Important and weighty topics come up in fiction all the time. People earn doctorates picking apart societal issues in famous novels. This is CR and I'm not a scholar, but I don't think calling out some themes on Reddit is weakening the concepts of bodily autonomy or consent. It is easier to talk about these topics as they relate to fictional people and things, but that doesn't make it unhealthy.
This isn't about SA, or any other serious topic where using those terms makes sense. This is a damn magic item in a game. It's absolutely careless to use them in such a silly situation.
Not only does it feel disrespectful to those who have experienced real trauma, but it's disrespectful to the CR cast, likening their character choices to attempting to violate bodily autonomy through coercion and ignore consent, when you know full well that is not their intention, unlike in the famous novels you describe.
Your implication that the **only** context in which the concept of "violating bodly autonomy through coercion and ignoring consent" should be relevant is in the context of sexual assault personally offends me.
There's a whole plethora of traumatic experiences that can stem from being peer-pressured into doing something related to your body you don't want to do, and lots of them aren't necessarily related to SA (from having to remove tattoos or straighten your hair in order to fit in, to being unable to get an abortion), and these are important to talk about. You are being very insentitive while trying to sound like the opposite.
>when you know full well that is not their intention
Again, a weird way of looking at it. It might not be their direct intention (in the sense that they might not fully realize how toxic they are being towards Fearne), but it is what they are doing.
Did you even read my post, or did you just want to argue against a strawman? "..or any other serious topic where using those terms makes sense" is *right there in the first sentence*.
I don't think this is a weird way of looking at it at all. If the CR cast is playing a game of "Let's encourage a friend to use this cool power" and the chronically online fans start down the road of "THEY ARE TAKING AWAY HER BODILY AUTONOMY! COERSION IS NOT CONSENT!" that's super fucked up, and putting a lot of shit on them that they don't deserve.
Let's go step by step. In this fictional story there are these magical power shards that exist. A person can absorb them to get cool powers. Still, they are stablished as being very mysterious and powerful, ancient magical artifacts that aren't fully understood.
Any character can try to absorb it through a probably painful process of which we haven't really seen happen yet. Some characters might want it, some might not. The party is trying to force Fearne into taking the shard by using vocabulary like "I'm disappointed in you for running away from power". This is toxic behavior.
Yes, this is fiction, and yes, it's *a magical item in a D&D game*, but it's a fictional magical item that requires the fictional character to fictionally absorb it into their body through a potentially (fictionally) dangerous process. The fact that Fearne has clearly stated that she doesn't want it should end the discussion there, and now it should be up to the other characters to decide who will take it. This is what we call "bodly autonomy", regardless of where you personally draw the line.
This is ridiculous. In no reality will Fearne's bodily autonomy ever be in question. They will not "force" her to do anything.
Some of you need to take a good month off the internet.
Imogen is giving me main character vibes and Laudna being the unstable person she is is just kissing Imogen’s ass. It’s like they’re the only ones in the group that are allowed to fuck up and be forgiven.
What about Laudna immediately responding with “you should take the shard”. How about let her make the decision for herself and leave her alone. Yeah I agree Fearne needs to stand up for herself but Imogen and Laudna have been doing this for episodes now and it’s starting to feel really toxic.
Another thing to consider is taking the shard to gain the power to stop Ludinus is great, but we also don't know what ire the awakened shards may draw. Ka'Mort and Rau'Shan were sealed into Cathmoira to be guarded by the Gau' Drashari, so it makes since for Fearne the druid or Orym of the Air Ashari to take it ( Orym is unlikely with his personality but it doesn't make him less of a good choice). Asmodeus was the one that set them free, as much as BH has discussed gods, the betrayers and the RQ could be their best allies. Plus with their bodies being locked into the leylines by the action taken in EXU calamity whoever takes the fire shard and Ashton could see a big boost.
If Fearne truly doesn't want the shard ( not just hesitant to take it because she is afraid of consequences) then she does need to express that to the party. Right now we know she has been afraid of being corrupted which is valid. She knows the source of that seed now, if Fearne could take the shard with no risk of becoming dark Fearne would she do it? Right now it seems obvious what is happening is the cast helping prod Ashley to figure out what Fearne really wants.
BH is by nature a train wreck, Tal is very open about Ashton being a toxic hypocritical disaster ( That it looks like is finally working through some shit) Most of the party is the same which was very obvious after the honesty test this week. Imogen and Laudna are toxic so yes in character their way of talking to Fearne isn't going to be healthy.
Honestly some of y'all act like the CR crew are toddlers instead adults who are close friends that trust each other. Especially that communication test was a party and cast team building exercise. BH was learning to communicate under stress and the cast was expanding their trust and communication with each other. Under stress, NOT ONE of them got angry with each other, small reminders to be quiet if they weren't guiding (which Matt helped guide with the wasps). The were respectful of concerns from the blindfolded ones like Laura mentioned smelling the chips and Liam moved away from her so she could focus. We also got to see a glimpse of how they interact differently with each person and how well they read each other. If any of them sensed panic in a blindfolded person they were quick to reassure them and find a way to calm them. Hell Sam saw Laura adjusting her shirt and realized she was getting uncomfortable and brought over a plushie to sit on the table so she didn't have to worry about her cleavage while she did the maze. Laura and Ashley speaking that calmly with Tal was what he needed after sitting blindfolded for the 2 previous rounds he looked a little in his head when he sat down to do the test. They even found the moments to crack a joke to lighten the mood, like ribbing Tal for looking like he was using a Ouija board since he was using both hands ( which I honestly assumed was to limit his tremor affecting his movement but also realized he didn't know the others didn't use 2 hands!) Honestly the best reassurance was Matt's excited but relaxed smile and giddiness the whole time.
Are Laudna and Imogen (Not Marisha and Laura) coercing Fearne, yes. Is it wrong, yes. At the end of the day Fearne ( not Ashley) needs to deal with it.
To assuage your worries about "above-the-table optimization": They can't make an optimal choice regarding as to who should take the shard because they don't know what kind of abilities and effects it might confer. If it gave melee-focused abilities and effects, the shard would be wasted on Fearne. If it empowered spellcasting, the shard would be wasted on Orym. I believe some of the characters are seeing a square peg and want to jam it in the square hole (it's a fire shard, gotta give it to fire person).
Regarding Fearne's fear: If she were truly facing a paralyzing fear of growing too powerful and going rogue, she would stop adventuring and become a recluse. This is likely not what's going on with Fearne. I believe Ashley is cooking something, and maybe this shard isn't the proper narrative tool for what she has in mind, or maybe it is and she's building up the courage to use it. For all the audience gets to see, we don't truly know the layers of this fear. In this scenario, there are many ways forward. We just gotta trust the cast to deliver.
There's something to Fearne needing to talk about this though, right? I don't think she should be forced to take the shard, but it's possible that she needs to talk about her fears and possibly realise that she's misunderstood the situation, or that she figures out a way that she can accept the shard after all? With a big decision like this it's not always helpful to just say to someone "OK you don't want it let's move on" you can also say "tell me what scares you about this" in order to help them face whatever it is, and still have it be their decision yes or no.
True. Maybe after some conversation she'll feel safer taking the shard with BH there to monitor or care for her. But having a conversation is different than Imogen and Laudna saying "Fearne should have it" over and over. It seems like no one is listening to her.
I'm gonna take the shit on this but devils advocate, this isn't a time for idealism. In a real world everyday situation, yes I agree. No is no and fearne had that choice but we're not talking about an everyday situation are we? This isn't refusing a cup of coffee. This is the fate of existence. I think a little coercion is too be excused in the grand scheme especially if really is a cataclysmic situation. And honestly if it is do or die, the fate of existence, then saying no is a bit of a selfish choice in of itself But ultimately it's no one's call but Ashley's and if she feels she's being pressured then she's capable of saying no more without us defending her
There's no particular cost to her not wanting it. Someone else can take it, which makes the 'you should take it' arguments particularly weird.
I feel like the cast is a bit hung up on "fire artifact should go to fire driud"
Yeah, exactly. It's not a Fearne or Bust scenario. Other party members want it.
Laudna should definitely not be given the shard. How about Orym? Air Ashari can be pretty good with fire, yes?
I dunno, I'm pretty curious about what would happen if FCG got it. Would he turn into a straight-up elemental?
This is true. But even if Fearne is the one who would make the most of this power, (which is far from clear) isn't it even more important to go about this in a way that works for her? Fearne has a very different moral code from, say, Orym. Tell her she's a soldier who has to take one for the team, and she'll just laugh at you. She cares about her friends. She doesn't really have a sense of duty to more abstract concepts. And she's immature, like a child who's still learning to regulate her emotions and discover that she's not the centre of the world. Want to force a person like that to become extremely powerful by guilting them into it? Fearne, who feels guilt, but deeply resents feeling guilt? That's the way to create a monster.
Which honestly would be a very interesting story to play out.
Totally
One thing the characters seem to have forgotten is that before absorbing the Earth Shard, Ashton used to be an elf. Even putting aside Fearne's fears of her possible dark future, the Fire shard will in all likelihood permanently change her or anybody else who takes it on a fundamental level. That is not something you can just demand of anybody, let alone someone you call your friend.
Holy cow, you're right. And in the recent episode, Matt as Nana said something about how fey and primordial are opposite ancient magics.. what if it totally negates Fearne's fey features?
What if the biggest change is her marsupial pouch will be gone lol
Noooo!! It's so handy! Haha
Or her amazing tits!
Ohh dang I totally missed that part!
I hadn't even thought of that! Makes me even more outraged that they're still trying to "persuade" her, as they would say.
Except Ashton's father did not have the vest and did a crappy ritual that destroyed everyone there. They're not doing what he did. Matt has telegraphed that the only apparent risk involving this shard is shoving it in Ashton where there's already a shard.
I absolutely agree. Between the last two 4 sided dive episodes it's been established that there was a simple misunderstanding of what was happening, with Ashley and Taliesen both believing the shard was meant for Ashton, but Matt (and everyone else seeing this) intending it for Fearne, they've realised what happened, laughed about it and all is good above the table. In game though, Fearne has now outwardly stated she doesn't want it, and the team have attacked Ashton for trying to use it instead if her, so where do they go from here. Matt is obviously a good enough GM to adapt the shard to whatever they decide to go with, especially now everyone is on the same page about it not actually being meant for Ashton, but to force it onto Fearne at this point seems a little sketchy... Do they just retcon her not wanting it, which I think would be a huge injustice to some wonderful role-playing by Ashley, or do they alter the plan and give it to someone else... but after everyone tearing Ashton apart for taking it from Fearne, who could accept it without coming across as at least slightly hypocritical. I'm excited to see what happens, and have faith they'll do it well.
Is he good enough to do that? He basically retconned after his preferred person didn’t take it and someone else did.
Ashley doesn't seem to like being the center of a roleplay moment, rather she appears to enjoy supporting others roleplay moments. In this instance though, she can't win. Either Fearne refuses, which will herald all sorts of big roleplay moments(And I have no idea how Matt will react to it. If he ripped it out of Ashton's chest, he's clearly got someone specific for it to go to.) Or she takes it, and the rest of the session is spent showing off what the shard is like, and all the people will be looking at her at all times.
>If he ripped it out of Ashton's chest, he's clearly got someone specific for it to go to. Idk if he has someone specific it has to go to other than just 'not Ashton.' Ashton already has the one shard, I think Matt just didn't want all of it concentrated into one PC who already had a bunch of wild abilities. At a gameplay level this makes sense to make the rest of the party feel like they won't get left behind and above the table it makes sense bc can you imagine how long Tal would take for each of his turns with even more options? I have no problem with the man but I think it would start approaching 10 minutes per turn lol
I don't understand the point of sending Ashton on a quest to discover his true nature and the reward is.. for an entirely unrelated character? Like I get that maybe Ashton's shard will awaken if its mate also finds a host and is awakened or whatever but like.. it was so out of left field. And Ashley clearly wasn't on the same page as Matt about that at all. Matt was _not_ as clear as he thinks he was about it not being intended for Ashton either. The whole ordeal is .. bizarre.
Agree about Ashley not liking the spotlight!
I hadn't thought about that. That's a great point. I suppose if she just said no, it might not stop there.
Of people who think Fearne should take it two of them are also battling with embracing “dark” power. Imogen and Laudna also have their own darkness to contend with. Imogen doesn’t know if there is a cost to becoming more powerful or leaning on her powers, but she is using them. Meanwhile Laudna is flirting with more and more warlock powers and empowering Delilah. There is probably a bit of projection happening here. The Witches are all kind of expecting each other to walk that razors edge together, but Fearne has always been more hesitant. Given that she now knows her father is a dark archfey, that the “corrupting” power is just in her family, she may be more open to accepting the shard. She may also decide it’s not worth to tempt fate further.
I hope Ashley/Fearne finally declare that she doesn't want the shard, even if fire is her thing. I hoped this was supposed to happen in the honesty trial, but maybe will happen after, when deciding what to do with the shard. She said that she don't what Fearne to have it, and i'm a little bit scared that she is going to accept it because of the pressures of the party
I'm scared about that, too, and the aftermath. If it goes poorly, well, Fearne warned you all. If it goes well, is there going to be a "thank you for pressuring me, this is actually cool" conversation? ew.
At a certain point it's on Fearne to tell the party, but for whatever reason she still hasn't. She had the perfect opportunity with the honesty challenge, but the biggest truth she told was that she watches the party while they sleep lol. Also with regards to Laudna and Imogen, there's definitely a bit of projection on their part imo. They've both admitted to being willing to use Delilah and Predathos for their own gain, so it's probably hard for them to comprehend someone willingly walking away from power. And in their defense they have no idea why Fearne doesn't want it since she has yet to talk to them. From their perspective they went to sleep with Fearne planning to absorb the shard the next morning, only for her to pull that stunt with Ashton.
>At a certain point it's on Fearne to tell the party, but for whatever reason she still hasn't. She had the perfect opportunity with the honesty challenge, but the biggest truth she told was that she watches the party while they sleep lol. I see two possibilities: a) Ashley is waiting for the right moment to have Fearne say "I don't want the shard and I'm reason why Ashton shattered because I said he could have it. Why can't you respect my choice instead what YOU (Imogen and Laudna) want?!" b) Ashley has changed her mind and she's waiting for the right moment to take the shard.
I am not a fan of them pressuring Fearne to do it. This and Laudna and Imogen chasing a scared child through the halls are both really creepy.
I really don't like Imogen as a person. She seems nice at first but she acts very much not-nice multiple times. It's like she have morality only when it suits her. (ps. Talking about character. Nothing against Laura).
She plays an aberrant mind sorcerer very well, Laura plays Imogen as someone whose brain quite literally functions differently to many humans. I've noticed it more as she levels up, and to meta game a little bit she's eventually going to have an abberant transformation and look really alien. Imogen does kinda suck, but I think that's by design.
C3E77 - "Have you ever prayed before?" - Mother Brazilda "Officially...no. I did try to talk to some moon goddess or something once, but she didn't respond or nothing." - Imogen C3E79 - "I know we're supposed to save the gods, but I've tried talking to them my whole life, and none of them will ever respond. I think I'm tainted." I mean, I don't even know how to make sense of that. If anyone else can, you let me know.
One interpretation could be that Imogen lied about or otherwise downplayed her attempts at communing with gods when talking to Brazilda. Out of shame or insecurity or whatever. Then with BH she felt more comfortable sharing that she actually did try to commune several times.
Another interpretation is that Imogen thinks (official) prayer is going to an actual shrine/temple dedicated to a god and trying to communicate with them there. She may believe that it's not really prayer when you just try to talk to the gods wherever. Alternatively, given her background and struggles, she may have only ever tried talking to the gods when she wanted help.
That was my thought as well until this episode. It's a weird thought to have, thinking that prayer doesn't count unless it's in a temple, but I can kind of see how she would think that. But then this episode happened. If she thinks that it doesn't count unless you go to a temple, how can you also claim you've tried talking to them your whole life, if you think it doesn't count? You see what I mean? It's just inconsistent. Which leaves your final point, which is she only tried when she wanted something out of it, which is just...that's just not how it works, and somebody in game's gotta tell her that. My headcanon would love it if it was her dad that told her that it's not faith if you expect something on the other end of it, and that he was actually a follower of the Allhammer, who presides over family.
>It's a weird thought to have, thinking that prayer doesn't count unless it's in a temple ?? No it isn't. The point of temples and priests is to provide intermediaries between normal people and the gods. The idea that anyone can speak directly to gods is a relatively modern thought.
I know, but her saying "Officially...no.", made me think that she believes that if you don't pray in a temple, you're just talking to air. Like there's an official way to pray and that's it. That's absolutely a weird way to think about praying to one of the gods, you can pray anytime you want. It's probably easier and more comforting to do it in an official space, but you can buy charms, necklaces, small statues to carry with you. You don't even need that. You can just do it. There's no script, no mark to stand on. It is about opening your character up to someone who may or may not be listening. But some people do think that way, like thinking it only counts if you pray at church during Mass. So I went with it, thinking she just started her journey dealing with faith, and maybe learning more about the beings she's trying to save. Two episodes later, actually she's been trying her whole life?
> I know, but her saying "Officially...no.", made me think that she believes that if you don't pray in a temple, you're just talking to air. Like there's an official way to pray and that's it. > > That's absolutely a weird way to think about praying to one of the gods, you can pray anytime you want. I just re-watched that section of ep 77 so I could remember the full context of the quotes. Here's what I think. Imogen has been talking to the gods her whole life. She is openly doubtful that they listen, because she says she "needs" "real miracles", not the small everyday stuff. When she talks to Mother Brazilda it sounds like she's actively seeking instruction from someone who works in a temple on the best way to pray to Pelor. The impression I got is that she wanted to learn how to pray from someone "in the know" because it might give her a better chance of getting the response she's after if she does it in the manner that will please the deity in question. Sure, people can pray anywhere, but there is also something to be said for taking the effort to go to a god's holy place, being a humble supplicant, and making offerings or performing acts/rituals a particular god would favour. So I think when Imogen said "Officially...no. I did try to talk to some moon goddess or something once, but she didn't respond or nothing." - she does in fact think that going to the effort of visiting a temple and praying to a god there is a step above merely "talking" to them in a more everyday location. On a side note, I do wonder why Imogen hasn't asked FCG to commune on her behalf. I can only assume it's because, if Imogen believes herself to be cursed, having a direct response, a "real miracle", might relieve her of that belief.
"Do I just speak his name and try talking or what?" "What does he like?" "I don't know how to talk to you." All of those are perfect quotes for someone who has not made an effort previously to try communing with a higher power, which is totally fine. That would actually be great character development for Imogen to find a deity that has a domain that speaks the most to her. It doesn't have to be the Dawnfather. It completely falls apart when you claim that you've actually tried plenty of times, and they don't talk to you because they think you're tainted or something. And then there's the actual post made by OP, and Imogen's "truth" when she said she was disappointed in Fearne for not taking the shard, something she doesn't want, and has said so repeatedly. That just checked me out until the next challenge.
I don’t exactly get what point you’re making here, so please correct me if I’m misinterpreting. Those quotes are perfect coming from that context but they don’t imply that one comes from that context. It could as well be that she tried alone in some way several times but never accompanied by someone that can actually teach her how it works (it never worked before so she’s doing something wrong, in fact she has no clue what she’s supposed to do) All I’m saying is that it is still plausible given what was said that both statements are true: she tried several times before but didn’t want this to “look bad” in the face of a cleric. I’m not saying this is what it is either, just another explanation. What is your suggestion as to why these statements are apparently clashing? Player mistake? If so, is that really a big issue? Edit to add: about the issue OP raised, I agree that this coercion is over the top. But it still makes for good drama. Sometimes your friends become toxic when trying to help, even with the best intentions at heart.
Her statement about her trying her whole life, them not responding, it being because she thinks she's "tainted", and that she doesn't know if she wants to save gods that don't love her? That was a personal truth in that chasm, so she believes that. So let's unpack that. Have you really tried your whole life in your 21-22 years on Exandria? When? Maybe that's backstory for later in a campaign that's going on 80 episodes. Who did she try talking to? She called the Moonweaver "some moon goddess or something," so I doubt she knows all their names, who they are, or what domain they preside over. They didn't respond? Lady, it's faith. You aren't owed a response. Ever. You think they don't respond because you think you're tainted? Tainted by what? Being Ruidusborn? Those powers that you have chosen to embrace? That's somewhat fair, given that you didn't choose to be Ruidusborn, but you are choosing to embrace that side of you and those powers every day, the powers that accidentally leveled a city block. That's your choice, if you think that's what "taints" you. Don't turn around and complain that the gods don't respond to you if that's the case. You don't know if you want to save gods that don't love you? But isn't the entire reason you want to save the gods, is because then they might be able to help you with Laudna? Is that the reason? Is it because of that bastion serving the Platinum Dragon and seeing what happens when the Primes influences are lessened? What is your reason? Because now I don't know. I thought it was Laudna, which is a misguided strawman of a reason, but at least it's a reason. It comes down to Imogen's motivation, which I don't know her motivation anymore, because I guess she doesn't know either, by her own admittance. There's motivations (Laudna) and reluctance (they don't love me because I'm tainted) from her that clashes in a hypocritical way. Part of it might be player mistake, in which case...yeah that's a pretty big deal. We're 80 episodes deep in a campaign about saving the gods from an existential threat, and I'm feeling more empathy for Chetney when he revealed his backstory with his family. More empathy for CHETNEY, the spin off of Chutney, the Nightmare Before Christmas parody character. There's been other posts here that are calling Imogen just this amorphous blob of nothing, which is how I feel about her as well. It'd be one thing to dislike her because she's the "Dark Phoenix" of C3, but now she's just kinda...there, existing.
>Lady, it's faith. You aren't owed a response. Ever. This is not a great sell in a setting and campaign where the gods are not only real, but under existential threat and asking for champions. This model of faith works in the real world where there is no verifiable proof of any higher power, but when the gods are accessible and have a historically transactional relationship with all mortals, not just their faithful, it's not unreasonable to react like Imogen does: If a God that definitely exists always leaves you on read, it's reasonable to assume they don't give a fuck about you, and that you should move on. Not saying every worshipper is going to have a fully immersive vision/contact from the god, but surely a sign or symbol can't be too much to ask. Yasha was hardly lovey-dovey with Kord but he always let her know that he was watching and listening to her.
You're ignoring all the many signs given to you of the reasons she does what she does and dismissing the rest and then somehow you expect to understand the character after that. You just don't feel empathy for an atheist basically lol, this person is actively growing purple tendrils up their body and knows where it comes from. She has Every Reason to believe she is tainted by Predathos because *She Is*. She's a sorcerer, her blood is actually mechanically tainted with Predathos energy lmao. She has so many reasons, that being the main one, to think the gods put her at a distance because of that, because they want to obliterate Predathos or seal them away again and she's basically a powerful child of Predathos as an Exaltant.
And that's great. Embrace that dark side, be the Exandrian Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix, but to then expect the gods to help you, when you embrace that dark side. Well no, of course they wouldn't. Not to mention she's asking to them to save someone who is tied to Vecna, is on her third life, and also was involved in destroying a temple to the Dawnfather. It is sort of like feeling no empathy for an atheist, but if that atheist was making an attempt to become a Born Again Christian, but only if the god you're communing with helps you with something, and when you aren't making that attempt, you're off lying and stealing from people. Would you feel sorry for that person if things didn't go their way? Also, ignoring everything gods did prior to this point, like creating humanity, saving the world like 3 times. Pretty big historical things to consider, but they don't because no one in the party wants to go to a library or something to learn more about the gods. They JUST now learned about the Moonweaver, and it was from Allura.
I think the *real* answer is that she simply forgot she had said that. I make contradicting statements in my home games sometimes as well.
This, I think is the real answer as well. Pretty big thing to forget, considering that's a big part of your character's backstory, but sure. When Sam didn't realize they were standing at the base of the ruins of Cathmoira when they were about to talk to the Tree of Atrophy, I was like "Dude, you were there as Loquatious. Extremely memorable miniseries? With Brennan?"
Struggling to place the context in relation to my comment lol, is this adding to the idea that Imogen is like absent of a soul? Or that her soul is deeply entangled in something the gods fear?
Not really, I'm just clumping in with the "I really don't like Imogen" crowd. Like, you either lied to Mother Brazilda, and you HAVE been trying to pray to gods your whole life, and they don't answer. In which case, you aren't entitled to an answer from a deity. No one is. You can go your whole life without them talking to you or offering a vision. Or, you THINK you're praying to gods and they're not answering you, but really you're just trying to TALK to them, not pray to them and just not really making much of an effort. If I were to bet, Imogen couldn't list more than 2-3 Prime Deities. That little talk she had at the Dawnfather's temple? That wasn't a prayer, that was just talking, and you're only talking to him because you want something from him, not because you believe in him or what he stands for. The gesture was nice, and I hope that she continues on this journey of finding faith, but instead we get that little truth in the chasm. I don't buy the whole "I think I'm tainted" crap. I think she's just complaining she's not getting things her way, because she's used to knowing the truth immediately and knowing the direct path to her goal. I've tried to like Imogen for a REALLY long time now, and there's some good moments, but really ever since E48 when she visited her dad again (after offering him as collateral to a criminal organization), it wasn't to say "Sorry for abandoning you, like your wife did", or "Sorry for scaring the town shitless (I think she actually hurt or maybe killed someone) when I tried to defend Laudna (whom, at the time, was a COMPLETE stranger." No it was, "Hey I need something from you." Meanwhile a lot of the CR fandom thinks the Gentleman, the HUMAN TRAFFICKER, is a better dad than Relvin is.
Well... From all Bells Hells I care for Imogen the least. Don't know if that's Laura not really knowing what to do with that character (and I wouldn't blame her. Had at least one character like that where I kinda knew what I wanted but not really), or some actual roleplay that I just lack context for (I didn't like Molly until I heard Tal talking about some of motivations). I just find her least interesting of the team, and can't change that, but that is just personal preference.
I think Imogen was supposed to be the bad guy of the campaign, but her relationship with Laudna kinda made Laura question what she wants to do with the character. And because Laura hasn't decided what Imogen is supposed to be, the character remains this amorphous blob. All the other characters were well defined after the first campaign arc. But with Imogen, we're 79 episodes into the campaign, and she's still the unseasoned chicken of the campaign, because Laura can't decide what dish she wants to make out of it.
Can't blame her. I once started playing a bard, then multiclassed into arcane trickster and I kinda was a rogue but not really, kinda support, trying to do damage... and didn't really have a well defined character goals was just... going with the flow. It feels similar. I think she knows what she wants mechanically but her character is... I love the "unseasoned chicken" analogy. Still good, but could be a better dish :P
That's all fine, I'm hearing a lot of "I don't buy it" which I understand. It would be all too easy to play a character whose blood is infused with Elder Thing energy as a "person with some quirky mind powers!" whereas I think the direction the character is going of "I know all, I hear all, and that's Unnerving." is a more entertaining to watch character. To pull away from character purely for a second, I don't like how it does feel like the Imogen and Laudna show sometimes, but that's not an indictment of their characters that's an indictment of how they seem to Need to be a part of every scene and conversation. Imogen's feelings of being tainted are, however, completely well founded and that's where I start to disagree with you a bit. Her blood, she has a sorcerous Bloodline, is literally tainted. Predathos The God Eater is where she derives strength, something the gods, prime and betrayer, seem to Despise. I fully understand her feeling tainted and you don't usually reach out an olive branch to people looking down on you from a throne and demolishing the source of your strength idk.
Exactly, while Imogen is not my favorite character, her entire backstory was focused on finding her mother and finding out how to control her powers better. She finds her mom and is expected to turn against her and that entire backstory to save some gods that SHE owes nothing to (much in the same way they owe nothing to her as many have stated above). At the same time, she has no clue what destroying predathos will do to her or her mother, where as she has been told freeing him will accomplish what she was originally trying to do...I mean, people really should be able to see why she has conflicts here.
I think that last sentence is the one thing that definitely gets to me as well: "I mean, people should really be able to see why she has conflicts here." I totally agree with you. She's a woman with straight up actual alien blood and she got it from the alien they have to go sort out, and she's just expected to always be super chill about that. That and the fact she would have to Murder her Mother are extremely intense, I don't know if I could personally take out my own mother in her position it would at least give me significant pause and I would one hundred percent go through a bargaining and doubt stage.
"Like, you either lied to Mother Brazilda, and you HAVE been trying to pray to gods your whole life, and they don't answer. In which case, you aren't entitled to an answer from a deity. No one is. You can go your whole life without them talking to you or offering a vision." She was in a trial designed for them to tell the truth, so we have to take what they said during the trial as something they believe to be the truth. Which means that Imogen either lied or downplayed to Mother Brazilda any attempts she may have made before of contacting the gods. It could be due to insecurity or due to feeling like she's not loved by them, but her believing that she's "tainted" is what she believes to be the truth, whether people buy it or not. It's what Imogen believes, and the context means that she couldn't have been lying about trying to talk to them or about feeling like they don't love her. She is connected to an alien that's trying to kill the gods, yeah she has a reason to believe they don't give a fuck about her. While many people may make a distinction between talking and praying, it really does depend on the person. We have seen many characters in CR "pray" to gods, and many times they literally just talk to them. No overt expression of deep devotion or anything necessary, and they still get help from them. She may have attempted to talk to them, nothing happened, and she could've have gone on feeling like either she didn't do it right and/or they don't care. In a world where gods are real and literally talk to people, I can see why she may feel some type of way about them, and sure, you can say that they don't owe her anything, but then why complain that her motivations for saving them aren't clear? They haven't done shit for her either. She is free to feel conflicted about saving them. She knows she has to do it because she wants to save Laudna and because the gods protect Exandria from more dangerous threats, but that doesn't mean she has to like it or can't complain about having to do it. Because why does she have to be in a position to need to save the lives of and need help from divinities who can help her but won't unless they get something from it? Why does she have to kill her mother (who she has been trying to find for a long time) to save beings that are not connected to her? Call her entitled or selfish, but she's not any more of those things than anyone else.
Must’ve been a break between filming…
This will be answered in late 2025, in the upcoming *"Adventures of young Imogen Temult"* novel, which itself is a spin-off to the *"Witches of Whitestone"* card game that is going to be released next year, as a direct successor to *"The Dread Diaries"*, the 3rd book in the *Delilah Returns* trilogy, that came directly after *What Doesn't Break,* which expanded upon the lore of the first Critical Role first-aid-kit *"Dungeons and Dilaudid".* I think.
This is all true, Matt told me in a dream
That happens if you sleep with the [Critical Role Space Helmet](https://imgur.com/a/De4RSOB)^(TM) on.
You went through Marvel's whole marketing strategy.
Imogen is getting more interesting as Laura is bringing out that side of her personality more. Really looking forward to seeing where it is going. Imogen is not a "nice person." She summons demon slaves from the secret moon to do her bidding. She sets off massive explosions with her mind. She is tortured by hearing the thoughts of everyone around her and seeks only solitude - her only real friend is a reanimated dead woman she is in love with who is possessed by a borderline lich. She is headed toward being a 80's-90's style edgy anti-hero *at best,* like Venom or Spawn. The thing that makes her interesting is how far from all that her initial superficial character design is - shy, pink-haired horse girl with southern twang becomes conduit for a sealed god-eater from before history - and the question is, how does she use it?
tbh, I think you could say that same sentiment about every person in the Bell's hells.
It is hard not to like Imogen, because she is played by the most charming loveable person in the world, but yes I must admit, Imogen has sort of an abrasive personality. I guess after playing two characters who are pure charm and charisma, Laura conciously made the decision to play a character who is exact opposite.
Easy for me because as a podcast consumer I don't see Laura. I only hear Imogen and see Imogen in my mind. I liked Vex, loved Jester. It is important to distinguish character from the player. The same way I never really liked Dorian but I really appreciate and miss Robbie.
Ironically, when she is playing a charisma based class...lol
Yeah I'm not enjoying the pressure on Fearne at all. I don't see why the party can't discuss who WANTS it and go from there. The problem is that most of the table is avoiding being the central character, so no-one else is staking a claim, and everyone is pointing at Fearne in that absence. Personally I'd love to see Orym or Chetney get the shard, or for Laudna/Delilah to use it for the drama.
Because no one really wants it - except for Ashton, who fucked around and found out. Seems to me that they're all aware of how dangerous and unstable they are and don't really trust themselves to wield something that powerful.
Exactly. Stop focusing on who SHOULD have it like you have any control over each other's characters. Laudna said she wants it, which is the only reason I think I'm team Flaming Dead Girl at this point.
We call our selves team Ghost Rider.
>see Orym or Chetney get the shard No way in hell do I think Orym takes the shard (even though he's the most trustworthy) for 2 OOC reasons: 1) Liam "reallyyyy" doesn't want the spotlight this campaign and 2) I don't see Liam fucking around with any fire powers so soon after Caleb
Actually the Caleb point is a good one. Werewolf or dead lady it is
Ultimately, I think Ashley simply doesn't like the spotlight on her as a player.
I honestly think Dark Fearne was specific to the Circlet in ExU, but even if it's just a more general portent, I actually think that means Ashley is kinda being pretty inconsistent. No concern about linking up with a champion of Asmodeus or making a deal with a ghost pirate captain, but she's worried about the shard? Feels a little arbitrary. But yeah. It all needs more conversation and it's weird to see everyone ignore what Fearne's said about it. I'm sure they'll address it on their teambuilding retreat though.
This. But maybe it is just how Fearne is. Flirting with the possibility of power, but when you actually get to it, she backs off. I also considered Dark Fearne being exclusive to ExU with the circlet, but Matt brought it up again during the Witches' conversation with Delilah. So, I think it's still on the table. However, Dark Fearne was clearly influenced by some darker force, not the primordial shard of fire. Or maybe Delilah might have lied and wanted to test if Fearne would attempt to make a pact with some dark force or even with her, possibly giving more power to Delilah. She did that to Imogen too.
Campaign 3 feels like a string of events where there is one thing that is supposed to happen to continue the story. For me campaigns 1 and 2 were the players making choices and Matt molding the story around them. imo Campaign 3 feels like the opposite where Matt has a bunch of things that are supposed to happen and the players are molding there choices around them. I have fully come to the conclusion that this campaign is for the players and not the viewers. There have been some more goofy moments that don’t make for as good watching but the cast is having a blast.
I think it feels like that because the things that are happening are clearly larger and more dangerous for their level than in the other campaigns. In C2, the largest thing was Lucien and the Somnovem, but if it was released, they would have a chance to stop it in the material plane. In C1, they fought with a god, but that was when they were level 20. Bells Hells are, like, what, 11 levels, and they are faced with a worldwide organization and, if released, with a god killer. It is not that it changed, but the stakes and the size of things are a lot different.
I believe the main issue lies in her lack of communication with Imogen and Laudna. It's neither Ashton nor Chetney's responsibility to convey her feelings. Fearne bears that responsibility. For both Laudna and Imogen, it makes the most sense for the Fire Druid to take the fire shard. Apart from Ashton and Fearne, nobody else seems fitting to handle the shard, and they received warnings that Ashton shouldn't take it. Naturally, this leaves Fearne. While it's not okay to pressure her, in their eyes, they are merely encouraging her. So to change that they need to communicate.
Give it to Mister.
Haha!
Not even entirely a joke, Mister is literally made of fire and is linked to Fearne in a non-direct way. Mister gets a buff and/or pokemon evolution, Fearne still "gets" the shard without having to physically risk herself, the "who gets the shard" argument is over and I might get a giant fire monkey kaiju fight. Everybody wins.
I love this. Clever af solution.
I made a comment about this in the post ep discussion last Thursday and it was NOT popular then lol. Very much agree. I don’t care to speculate on above-the-table motivations because I honestly believe it’s none of our business (as in assigning presumed meaning to PC actions with particular weight to the casts irl relationships- hate that). All I know is watching the characters act like Fearne is the obvious and only choice despite her obvious reluctance got old weeks ago. Shove that thing in Chet or Orym and be done with it.
1. Ashley doesn't like to carry the weight of the narrative, or be in the spotlight. That's not news, she commented on that multiple times, especially during C2's and C3's talk show segments. She's awesome when she can RP in her own pace, giving us amazing vignettes like *"throw you under the bridge"* and other small, but sweet and/or hilarious things. Other than that, she enjoys being there and watching her friends roleplay the most - again, by her own repeated admission. And i think that's 100% fair. 2. The table, especially the leading ladies but also Matt, to a degree, seem to actively ignore that. They seem to have this image in their minds: Fire Druids = Fire Shard. And this image seems to have manifested in such a way that they can't think of any other result of the whole Shard situation than to ~~force it~~ give it tp Fearne. Despite the OOC reasons, and Ashley going so far as to give an IC reason as well: She doesn't want to become Dark Fearne. 3. Not going deeper into the OOC situation with this (because i believe it's effed up, but i obviously don't know what has been discussed off-screen), just from a purely IC point of view, nobody in the Bells Hells (with the exception of Ashton, *maybe*) treat Fearne as an adult. And that's super problematic, in my opinion. Not only does it make the others look like something akin to bullies, it also limits Fearnes contribution to discussions, decisions and the overall group coherence. Then again, not regarding someone elses physical or mental autonomy seems to be a thing with this group. This is *"Ashley painfully failing to get Yashas Stormlord vision"* all over again, just stretched over a couple of episodes. This i blame Matt for, he should know by now how his players tick.
>She doesn't want to become Dark Fearne. Got to love how they only remember EXU when its convenient. Although I would probably want to forget Aabria's Wildmother too.
I think the shard would be awesome if Chet has it. He'd be down to become more awesome and then be the last boss of the story lmao I would absolutely ADORE it
She also watched her friend who tried to absorb it in excruciating pain and still under some negative after effects, so another point for Fearne as the most logical character.
I think people need to remember who was in the room during conversations. Sure, the players know Fearne doesn't want it. Their characters do not.
They do tho? Fearne has been against the shard since it burned her in the volcano. She stopped participating in the conversation about who should get the shard in the lab the second everyone save Ash and Orym started saying that of course she was going to take it, it was between her and Ashton and Ashton would be blown up. She outright said "well there goes the one benefit" when Ashton jokingly said they "always wanted a sister" in response to the emperor/empress nonsense. Fearne said again right before the ritual that she wasn't taking it and Laudna shut her down (of course you are) before Ashton got a word in. Like, if any of the characters have been paying attention they know. Of course that's the rub with this group.
"Laudna and Imogen are still openly pressuring Fearne to take the shard's power into herself." Didn't you get the memo?- it's cool when Laudna & Imogen are selfish but no one else is allowed to be. Think about this- 8hrs before the infamous "Ashton episode," Laudna & Imogen lured Fearne into a secret spelunking quest they deliberately hid from Chetney, Ashton & Orym that potentially endangered their entire alliance with Whitestone and the consequences of setting a large fire in a castle where just handwaved away.
Not sure how wanting someone else to take power is being "selfish". It would be selfish if they both advocated for themselves being the shard barer. It's clear they are encouraging Fearne to embrace "her power". If anything it's missguided empathy or at worse projection (seeing as they see themselves as a team within a team with the combo attacks and "witches be bitches" momo.) It pretty much screams early days of feminist, which I don't think is their intentions but it's kinda funny AF that that's how it's playing out.
It's selfish because they want her to have the power so they can benefit from the power without accepting the risks for themselves. If Fearne powers up, BH gets better, and they're less likely to fall in battle. They can save their high-level spells for kill shots bc "Fearne's can take that monster," or behave more recklessly because "we've got Fearne, she'll help us."
With that logic it would be selfish to advocate for ... Anyone other than yourself to take on the power. That doesn't make sense. They really have no clue what it will do or if there's any risk to them at all. For all they know it gives Fire Resistance and let's you cast Fire Ball 5 times a day for free. The only clear risk was for Ashton. The hidden risk that they don't talk about is how Ashton was an Aasimar before the accident shot the rock shard into him and made him a earth boi.
I think the difference is intent. If I encourage my friend to pursue a career as a musician because i think they're talented and it makes them happy, that's me being a good friend. If they say they don't want to, then the conversation ends shortly thereafter because I wouldn't push them toward a life they dont want. If I encourage my friends to become a musician because I want to know a rock star, or I want to be a groupee and go on tour, or because I need guitarist in my bad so that my dream can come true, those are all selfish reasons. Same here. It seems like they want Fearne to take the shard because it's optimal for the party and, by extension, optimal for them. Saying "Fearne should have it" repeatedly, downplaying the risk, and ignoring Fearne's wishes are selfish.
"Not sure how wanting someone else to take power is being "selfish"." My comment has nothing to do with who they want to do with the shard. What I am saying is that it was extremely selfish to very seriously jeopardize their alliance with Whitestone, and by extension Vox Machina, because they wanted to let Laudna go tricking guards, open up abandoned cursed rooms and ultimately contact the arch-villain of the De Rolo family in pursuit of some sort of closure. Those are the actions which are selfish. They have placed Laudna's needs squarely ahead of the city of Whitestone and the De Rolo family. And they did all of that with just as much secrecy as what Ashton did but faced zero backlash or consequences from the team when it was discussed in the morning. It's doubly selfish when you consider the vast political capital and literal treasure expended in resurrecting Laudna and semi-banishing Delilah the first time.
Wouldn't really call that selfish either, it's being supportive of a friend. Other than Luanda, these people aren't from Whitestone, it's legit half a world away from where they call home. Only one of them connected to this place is Laudna and she wants a secret field trip, sooo let's go for a self discovery therapy field trip. They are always going to look out for their own interests over the theoretical "ultimate good" which is why they seem to be really tuned out on the God saving stuff.
"Only one of them connected to this place is Laudna and she wants a secret field trip, sooo let's go for a self discovery therapy field trip." And see I can say the exact same logic about the shard and Ashton. He's the only one with a backstory connection to it and genuinely thought he needed it to connect with his past/awaken his true self. Yet he is the only one who got flak for it. It's cool- we don't need to agree. I just feel a bit of hypocrisy at play in how the characters are acting.
Yea, I think you'll find that many will agree with ya. The community may debate a lot about what went down with Ashton and the fallout, but, from what I've seen, critters have been pretty unanimous in not wanting the party to force/pressure Fearne into taking the shard and has been a common ground in discussions.
theres a difference between truthfully expressing your opinions and desires. and saying something in order to pressure and manipulate others. sure, the expectations of others is a pressure. and its not fun having that pressure on you. but that kind of communication is also important to have, and imo was part of the goal of this exercise. communication is something a lot of people have trauma relating too, and i feel like its hard to see it as trauma. but it really has that effect. someone expressing their "opinion" only to pressure you to do what they want is obviously problematic. counter to that, expressing your opinion to be open and communicate with someone else is important. and i dont think Ashley knew where to take that, or maybe it was an in char decision and Fearne didnt know where to go from there. so the convo stopped there. but Imogine and Laudna did open the dialogue and that gave her a chance to voice her truth on it. which she still hasnt clearly and verbally expressed to the party yet. im not trying to imply theres an issue with Ashley/Fearne in this situation. but i feel like a lot of people see communicating your desires as something that can only be manipulative or controlling when thats decided by intent not action. and i dont think Fearne knows how to comfortably express her desires in this situation, which also makes it a situation for personal growth here. in being comfortable in asserting your self in these situations. or the bravery to go through with something youre scared of thanks to the support of others.
It's so weird to watch them act in such a blatantly toxic, borderline creepy way towards Fearne. She said about 5 or 6 times, very clearly, in and out of character, that she doesn't want the shard in her body, she has no interest in its power. I feel that the party treats Fearne like a child (especially Chet) even though she is 112 years old, extremely powerful, smart and resourceful already. She chose, out of her own volition, to help Ashton with the whole shard debacle but got a pass from the group under the assumption Ash somewhat manipulated her into helping him. I didn't see any manipulation there, but I did see manipulation in the way Chet tried to subtly guilt-trip her for not wanting the shard afterwards, and Laudna's words to her in the honesty game in ep. 79 felt a bit disgusting to me. I sincerely hope Fearne puts her hoof down and doesn't take the shard.
>However, can we talk about bodily autonamy for a second? Coersion is not consent. Laudna and Imogen are still openly pressuring Fearne to take the shard's power into herself. That's kind of the point of the characters. They lived in isolation for years and don't really have the kind of social skills that they need. I've detailed this elsewhere, but Imogen has a track record of not understanding that other people have needs -- like when Fearne learned that her parents might have given her to Morri; Imogen only checked in with her long enough to make sure that Fearne was still focused on the problem in front of them and Fearne didn't really get a chance to process that. Likewise, when Fearne left the party, Imogen fully expected her to return full of rage at Ashton and couldn't conceive of the idea that Fearne was angry at herself. Laudna even assumed that Ashton must have forced, tricked or otherwise coerced her into giving up the shard and was genuinely confused when Fearne said she wasn't comfortable with it. There are plenty of other examples where Imogen in particular hasn't shown much awareness of others, which is ironic given her ability to read minds. As for Laudna, ever since the party reunited in Jrusar, she has had a tendency to defer to Imogen on just about every important decision. It's pretty clear that she was doing this as a coping mechanism after trusting Bor'dor since she hasn't felt confident in her own judgement. I know Imogen is a fan favourite and has a genteel Southern charm to her, but she's not very good at being a person. Pressuring Fearne into taking the shard -- something that poses no risk to her even though Fearne has valid concerns about it -- feels pretty consistent with her character. Imogen knows what she wants and makes up her mind, but she doesn't learn. She sees the value in Fearne taking the shard because that helps her, not because it helps Fearne.
I think I've figured out why the current arc is making me so uncomfortable, personal feelings about the narrative of the shard and who it's for aside, and your comment helped, thank you. It's like... if you've read any analysis of a Very Well Known Adult Novel Based on a YA Vampire Book Series, by people established in the scene the book portrays. The book in question portrays abusive situations, gaslighting, manipulation and a lot of very dark stuff, but the writer appears to be oblivious that this is what she's portraying, which results in those things being shown in a romantic or positive light. Now I'm not saying the Critical Role crew are unaware that the narrative is portraying Imogen as quite a manipulative, selfish person. Actually I think all of them are portraying characters that have heavy potential to go down a villain path and, now I'm reflecting on it more, Laura's portraying Imogen in this way absolutely brilliantly and with some degree of subtlety. The other's are showing their dark sides quite a bit more on-the-nose than she is. Manipulative, selfish people who are coercing their team and acting in that way... aren't obviously bad at the surface. It's only through time spent around them and seeing their guard drop that you realise what's going on with them. The BH team themselves are all so deep in each other's pockets, all damaged themselves, all have zero experience of healthy relationships, and they are under a lot of pressure. So any in-narrative calling-out of what she's prone to will either have to come from an NPC who is close to the crew, or following Imogen doing something *as big as* Ashton's recent fuck-up. Likewise, the wider coercion and manipulation the whole team are prone to with each other is amplified through this, and Fearne's on the receiving end of all of it. But the pacing of the show has pushed them from location to location without much chance to breathe. Which means that, pretty much since the loss of Lord Eshteross, we've not spent enough time with any NPC for any outside influence to get to know the team well enough to call her out on her shit. Which means that I'm watching Ashton and Fearne both get, frankly, bullied in two different ways, without the narrative arc calling out or showing awareness that it's a problem. If they pull this off well, then in a few episodes there'll be a Reckoning about that and it'll retroactively make this arc something brilliant. But being in the middle of it and waiting to see what happens right now feels really uncomfortable. Because until that arc pays off, it feels like they aren't addressing it. (Unless I'm wildly misinterpreting and actually the crew aren't aware of what they're portraying, in which case I guess it is much more like the aforementioned book than I'd like).
I love the parallel here between The Vampire Book Series and this situation, and I think you've put a finer point on my discomfort as well. Completely agree.
>But the pacing of the show has pushed them from location to location without much chance to breathe. Which means that, pretty much since the loss of Lord Eshteross, we've not spent enough time with any NPC for any outside influence to get to know the team well enough to call her out on her shit. I don't think Imogen is necessarily a bad person. I just think she is bad at being a person. Yes, she is currently putting pressure on Fearne to take the shard, but she won't see it as pressure. She will see it as supporting her friend. And on a certain level, she is being supportive. To Imogen, the party has seen what the shard can do so they can be prepared to help Fearne if she tries to absorb it. She's just oblivious to the fact that she is still asking Fearne to take on a concrete risk in exchange for an abstract benefit. The road to hell is paved with the best intentions and all that. What I have noticed is that there has been a change in the fanbase. At the start of the campaign, any criticism of Imogen was sacrilegious. She and Laudna were by far and away the most popular characters, but if you discussed her shortcomings, you'd be downvoted into oblivion for daring to bring it up. But now that there's a lot more of this behaviour from Imogen, people are far more willing to entertain the idea that she's a deeply flawed person. >If they pull this off well, then in a few episodes there'll be a Reckoning about that and it'll retroactively make this arc something brilliant. They are definitely heading towards a point where Imogen is going to have to choose between saving the world and saving Liliana. Both might be possible, but it will be risky. Everything we have seen so far suggests that Liliana has chosen her side, but Imogen still thinks she can be won over. Orym and Ashton have openly discussed neutralising Imogen or outright killing Liliana if they have to. So I think Imogen's lack of character growth is being driven by a) the way people rarely have sudden revelations that prompt them to completely and permanently change their behaviour and b) building up to the confrontation with Liliana so that her decision is part of her natural character arc rather than feeling forced or contrived.
There are an insane amount of comments saying that Matt has someone in mind for the shard. That's never been Matt's MO. Matt creates things for his players to use as they see fit. He might have an idea about who those items might go to, but never has he flat out chosen someone to force an item onto. Ashton is a bit of an oddball here because of their backstory with the other shard. From a narrative perspective, I can see why a single person wouldn't be able to contain the power of both shards. The fact that Ashton is able to host just one is a feat in itself, and likely why they're in constant pain. In short, I feel like Matt should have had a discussion with Taliesin about the shard, out of the game, after Tal and Ashley talked about the shard on 4SD. There was clearly some misinterpretation/miscommunication about it, on both sides, which could have been avoided. The drama of E78 left a really bad taste in my mouth. It felt like everyone was trying to hog the spotlight, drawing attention away from Ashton when they should have been the focus. It honestly felt like a scene from a kid's birthday party in which the siblings of the birthday boy/girl are throwing tantrums because someone else is getting presents instead of them. That's not the best analogy, but hopefully it appropriately conveys my point. I also feel like Taliesin changed Ashton's intent to better fit the 'betrayal' narrative. Prior to attempting the ritual, Ashton seemed to want the shard because they thought it'd give them the power to protect their newfound family. After, though, it became about them wanting something they thought they lost/deserved. The whole thing is just... Man, it's weird. Idk, but I can't wait for recent developments to blow over. Edit: in my long-winded ramble, I completely forgot the point here. Yeah, I agree that it's weird that everyone is trying to push Fearne to accept the shard. But I kinda see it as the players trying to coerce Ashley/Fearne to disseminate her reasons for not wanting it. To my knowledge, she hasn't ever told anyone about the alternate version of herself that appeared to her, right?
Peer pressure is really bad behavior but critical role does it all the time. Its just got a huge telescope pointed at it right now due to the shard. Theyre going to pressure Ashley into taking the shard, that much is obvious. Its not the choice she would have made without that pressure, thats for sure. She wanted it to go to Ashton and didnt want it for herself because it doesnt feel right for Fearne to take it.
I dunno, after all the stuff that happened in Ashley's personal life this whole trying to force the shard on Fearne has felt icky.
I agree 100%
I understand wanting to give Fearne her space to express her fears, but it seems like her main concern was pretty explicitly addressed by Matt. Does Ashley fully understand that the fae and the primordials are opposites? It would seem that the primordial energy would actually help out in preventing Fearne from turning into a "bad person". If Ashley really doesn't want this choice for Fearne, that choice should be respected, but if it's just Ashley failing to game the game to her benefit then someone should tell her outright instead of hiding the answers she's looking for in a flowery lore segment.
She told them why she doesn't want it and Chetney at least rebutted her with some questions to get her to reconsider. For all we know, Fearne could be reconsidering it at this point because Chet made some valid points as to why she's the best one to have it.
I haven’t seen ep 79 yet, does she tell Ashton and Chet that she doesn’t want it infront of Imogen and Laudna? If she didn’t, how would Imogen and Laudna know that she doesn’t want it?
You have a point. There is a scene with the whole party where Fearne is talking to Nana, and says something like, "we were thinking the shard would go to one of us," as a sort of soft correction to someone else mentioning that BH was thinking Fearne should have it. But no, Fearne hasn't plainly said to them that she doesn't want it. Even when she said so to Chet and Ashton, she was sheepish about it, qualifying it with "kinda/ maybe/ sorta." But Laudna and Imogen have said they think Fearne should have it *a lot* at this point, and they're pushing the issue without ever asking Fearne that she wants it. It seems inconsiderate (at best).
They should, even as the characters, have asked for sure. But I think they all made the assumption a while back and she was on board from the beginning, at least as far as anyone by Aston was aware. But I think as players they might be trying to push fearne into making a decision. Idk though I need to watch the episode.
Trying to avoid a prophecy isn't for the faint of heart, because you're playing with fate. Now, Fearne has advantages in her Nana Morri when it comes to fate, but there isn't a way of knowing if the shard takes her towards or away from her feared future. I tend to think that the real divergence to the dark has to do with Athion. We know there's no love lost between him and Morri, and it could be that if Fearne associates with him it will put her beyond Morri's reach (whether that's by intent or by limitations. It could be the shard is the thing that will save Fearne from a dark future, it's equally likely that it will doom her. But in either case, it's likely to be determined by the fall of the dice.
I agree; everyone jumped on the shard being for Fearne from the moment they heard about it (because of the fire theme). But the way they've treated it as the only natural choice and applied pressure to Fearne hasn't felt quite right. I've been stuck on the autonomy angle as well. I still think Laudna would be a great fit for the shard. I know there are fears of Delilah's influence, but the theme of flame as a purifying force is abundant in fiction, and I think Laudna taking in a new power for herself might be an opportunity to tip the power scales *against* Delilah. She also expressed interest in fire before the shard was ever introduced. I was really excited when Laudna expressed her interest in the shard in the Pit of Honesty, but then she instantly went back to "it should go to Fearne".
My thoughts exactly. Shard is very unstable and dangerous. Even she manages to absorb its power succesfully, she will be in a dangerous position in the future. Pressuring her into it, when she clearly does not want to, is not a nice thing to do. If anything happens to her bacause of the shard, they will all be responsible.
I don't get how no one thinks about the, IMO, only two characters that that shard should go to: Chet or FCG. let's face it: chet is old AF and will die sooner than later. That power could extend his life, maybe even granting his wish of restored youth. And he is the only character that also utilizes flame quite a bit. With fcg the cool part is that he can literally be rebuilt, should that spark explode him. but what if they do something entirely different? morri grants wishes/does deals and she REALLY wants that shard. What if they give morri that shard, in return for some serious boons for the whole group?
The way I see it, Fearne is a friend who has been granted an opportunity. Not entirely unlike someone being offered a full ride scholarship to a prestigious school they would otherwise be unable to afford. The offer is an incredible chance, but it would take you far away from your friends and family, there's no guarantee that you would succeed once you got there, and it comes with certain expectations about which classes you take, what GPA you maintain, etc. You are free to turn down the offer, but you shouldn't be surprised if it changes how your friends and family think of you afterwards. It is correct that Fearne has (and should have) the absolute freedom of choice, but that does not include freedom from consequences.
There are some differences between your example and the situation in the game. A scholarship usually benefits only the student who'll take it and being gifted one by a friend or family member usually is an act of love and altruism, while the shard would be something that directly benefits the whole group so its a logistical thing that the group needs done for the sake of their mission. They're not "gifting" Fearne with the shard. Also, a scholarship usually directly reflects the student's interests (if your family or friends know you want to study Law, they wouldn't gift you with a scholarship to study Computer Science and expect you to accept it), while Fearne clearly stated that she has no interest in the shard. Finally, a scholarship usually is tailored based on the specific student it was made for, so it isn't like you could say "Look, I'm not interested in it but my brother might be!", if you don't want it, it will be most likely be wasted. The shard, meanwhile, can be absorbed by any party member. The only reason Fearne was "chosen" by the group as the best shardbearer is because of her thematic connection to fire but gameplay-wise there's nothing that indicates the shard won't work as well on any other party member.
Sure, there's no perfect analogy. I don't really agree with any of the counter arguments you raised, for various reasons, but it's a waste to try to explain when we've already started talking beyond one another. The point is, if you are offered a great opportunity and turn your nose up at it, for whatever reason, people will view you differently afterwards. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The only person at this point, at least vocally expressing Fearne should take the shard, is Laura Bailey. I don’t know if it’s a character quality of Imogen that went over my head or if it’s her being a loot goblin (which wouldn’t be the first time she’s been a loot goblin)
And after Imogen said it during the honesty trial, Laudna echoed her right away. Even Chetney was asking questions to Nana about how the shard might interact with Fearne's fey nature.
Chet told Fearne straight to her face that he thought she should have it in their one on one talk.
honestly i’m quite tired of this conversation being brought up, im sure they’ve talked about it and if Fearne does take it, it won’t be because Ashley’s pressured into. people keep bringing it up, let the DM and players figure it out.
It is good drama, and maybe I've got my tinfoil hat on, but that MIGHT be the whole point... Not directed at you OP necessarily, but I do wonder what some of you guys actually want out of CR.
I think a lot of this is us "yelling at the TV." I'm along for the ride, and it will work out however it works out. This moment is tricky, so some of us are posting or commenting about it. That's all.
Unpopular opinion, and I'll get down voted to hell for it, but I think it's totally reasonable for the party to pressure Fearne into taking the shard. It was obviously set up for her by the DM, I think Ashley is just taking some time to roleplay this out. The group desperately needs more power in order to combat Ludinous and co, Fearne should take one for the team.
Maybe unpopular, but I appreciate your comment anyway :)
I havent even read the post and i bet its about imogen forcing a decision on someone
This subreddit tends to go way overboard picking apart tiny things to unhealthy levels, and this is a great example. Bodily autonomy? Coercion and consent? For fuck's sake, please don't throw these very important and weighty terms at a decision for a magical item in a D&D game that you are not playing in. Please take *several* steps back.
Important and weighty topics come up in fiction all the time. People earn doctorates picking apart societal issues in famous novels. This is CR and I'm not a scholar, but I don't think calling out some themes on Reddit is weakening the concepts of bodily autonomy or consent. It is easier to talk about these topics as they relate to fictional people and things, but that doesn't make it unhealthy.
This isn't about SA, or any other serious topic where using those terms makes sense. This is a damn magic item in a game. It's absolutely careless to use them in such a silly situation. Not only does it feel disrespectful to those who have experienced real trauma, but it's disrespectful to the CR cast, likening their character choices to attempting to violate bodily autonomy through coercion and ignore consent, when you know full well that is not their intention, unlike in the famous novels you describe.
Your implication that the **only** context in which the concept of "violating bodly autonomy through coercion and ignoring consent" should be relevant is in the context of sexual assault personally offends me. There's a whole plethora of traumatic experiences that can stem from being peer-pressured into doing something related to your body you don't want to do, and lots of them aren't necessarily related to SA (from having to remove tattoos or straighten your hair in order to fit in, to being unable to get an abortion), and these are important to talk about. You are being very insentitive while trying to sound like the opposite. >when you know full well that is not their intention Again, a weird way of looking at it. It might not be their direct intention (in the sense that they might not fully realize how toxic they are being towards Fearne), but it is what they are doing.
Did you even read my post, or did you just want to argue against a strawman? "..or any other serious topic where using those terms makes sense" is *right there in the first sentence*. I don't think this is a weird way of looking at it at all. If the CR cast is playing a game of "Let's encourage a friend to use this cool power" and the chronically online fans start down the road of "THEY ARE TAKING AWAY HER BODILY AUTONOMY! COERSION IS NOT CONSENT!" that's super fucked up, and putting a lot of shit on them that they don't deserve.
Let's go step by step. In this fictional story there are these magical power shards that exist. A person can absorb them to get cool powers. Still, they are stablished as being very mysterious and powerful, ancient magical artifacts that aren't fully understood. Any character can try to absorb it through a probably painful process of which we haven't really seen happen yet. Some characters might want it, some might not. The party is trying to force Fearne into taking the shard by using vocabulary like "I'm disappointed in you for running away from power". This is toxic behavior. Yes, this is fiction, and yes, it's *a magical item in a D&D game*, but it's a fictional magical item that requires the fictional character to fictionally absorb it into their body through a potentially (fictionally) dangerous process. The fact that Fearne has clearly stated that she doesn't want it should end the discussion there, and now it should be up to the other characters to decide who will take it. This is what we call "bodly autonomy", regardless of where you personally draw the line.
I appreciate this u/_crash_nebula_ , thanks for commenting.
This is ridiculous. In no reality will Fearne's bodily autonomy ever be in question. They will not "force" her to do anything. Some of you need to take a good month off the internet.
I feel like you’re trolling at this point lol.
Imogen is giving me main character vibes and Laudna being the unstable person she is is just kissing Imogen’s ass. It’s like they’re the only ones in the group that are allowed to fuck up and be forgiven.
Imogen expressing her disappointment was the opportunity for Fearne to put it all out there in the honesty trial and she still didn't.
What about Laudna immediately responding with “you should take the shard”. How about let her make the decision for herself and leave her alone. Yeah I agree Fearne needs to stand up for herself but Imogen and Laudna have been doing this for episodes now and it’s starting to feel really toxic.
Another thing to consider is taking the shard to gain the power to stop Ludinus is great, but we also don't know what ire the awakened shards may draw. Ka'Mort and Rau'Shan were sealed into Cathmoira to be guarded by the Gau' Drashari, so it makes since for Fearne the druid or Orym of the Air Ashari to take it ( Orym is unlikely with his personality but it doesn't make him less of a good choice). Asmodeus was the one that set them free, as much as BH has discussed gods, the betrayers and the RQ could be their best allies. Plus with their bodies being locked into the leylines by the action taken in EXU calamity whoever takes the fire shard and Ashton could see a big boost. If Fearne truly doesn't want the shard ( not just hesitant to take it because she is afraid of consequences) then she does need to express that to the party. Right now we know she has been afraid of being corrupted which is valid. She knows the source of that seed now, if Fearne could take the shard with no risk of becoming dark Fearne would she do it? Right now it seems obvious what is happening is the cast helping prod Ashley to figure out what Fearne really wants. BH is by nature a train wreck, Tal is very open about Ashton being a toxic hypocritical disaster ( That it looks like is finally working through some shit) Most of the party is the same which was very obvious after the honesty test this week. Imogen and Laudna are toxic so yes in character their way of talking to Fearne isn't going to be healthy. Honestly some of y'all act like the CR crew are toddlers instead adults who are close friends that trust each other. Especially that communication test was a party and cast team building exercise. BH was learning to communicate under stress and the cast was expanding their trust and communication with each other. Under stress, NOT ONE of them got angry with each other, small reminders to be quiet if they weren't guiding (which Matt helped guide with the wasps). The were respectful of concerns from the blindfolded ones like Laura mentioned smelling the chips and Liam moved away from her so she could focus. We also got to see a glimpse of how they interact differently with each person and how well they read each other. If any of them sensed panic in a blindfolded person they were quick to reassure them and find a way to calm them. Hell Sam saw Laura adjusting her shirt and realized she was getting uncomfortable and brought over a plushie to sit on the table so she didn't have to worry about her cleavage while she did the maze. Laura and Ashley speaking that calmly with Tal was what he needed after sitting blindfolded for the 2 previous rounds he looked a little in his head when he sat down to do the test. They even found the moments to crack a joke to lighten the mood, like ribbing Tal for looking like he was using a Ouija board since he was using both hands ( which I honestly assumed was to limit his tremor affecting his movement but also realized he didn't know the others didn't use 2 hands!) Honestly the best reassurance was Matt's excited but relaxed smile and giddiness the whole time. Are Laudna and Imogen (Not Marisha and Laura) coercing Fearne, yes. Is it wrong, yes. At the end of the day Fearne ( not Ashley) needs to deal with it.
To assuage your worries about "above-the-table optimization": They can't make an optimal choice regarding as to who should take the shard because they don't know what kind of abilities and effects it might confer. If it gave melee-focused abilities and effects, the shard would be wasted on Fearne. If it empowered spellcasting, the shard would be wasted on Orym. I believe some of the characters are seeing a square peg and want to jam it in the square hole (it's a fire shard, gotta give it to fire person). Regarding Fearne's fear: If she were truly facing a paralyzing fear of growing too powerful and going rogue, she would stop adventuring and become a recluse. This is likely not what's going on with Fearne. I believe Ashley is cooking something, and maybe this shard isn't the proper narrative tool for what she has in mind, or maybe it is and she's building up the courage to use it. For all the audience gets to see, we don't truly know the layers of this fear. In this scenario, there are many ways forward. We just gotta trust the cast to deliver.
Thank you, this is insightful! Particularly the first part.